September 11, 2025 • 7 mins
#1 New York Times bestselling author Ben Shapiro examines the current state of America and Western civilization, and poses a question: will we be Lions, or will we be Scavengers?In a world split between noble Lions and destructive Scavengers, only the brave can lead the way. Acclaimed writer and conservative thought leader Ben Shapiro knows that at the heart of today's conflicts-political, economic, and cultural-there's a dangerous lie: that all people are equal in ability, and that all inequality stems from oppression and exploitation.With his signature clarity and sharp insight, Shapiro refutes that lie, emphasizing that in a free country, inequality is rooted in differences of talent and work ethic-not oppression-and that the best solution to lack of success lies in duty and virtue. Lions, like America's founding fathers, strive for the highest good, building systems that promote freedom, prosperity, and equality of opportunity. Meanwhile, Scavengers degrade these ideals, spreading resentment and entitlement that threaten to dismantle the foundations of Western civilization.In Lions and Scavengers, Shapiro invites you to take up the mantle of the Lion and defend the principles that shape the freedom of a fair, powerful society. With the stakes higher than ever, this book is a gripping exploration of the ongoing war between those who cherish our nation and those who seek to undermine it. The triumph of the Lions is essential for America's continued success. It's a rallying cry for those who refuse to bow to the Scavengers' demands. It's time to fight back.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
In Shapiro. I've got to tell you, this book right
here is amazing in so many ways. I think it's
going to bring a rise to the people that are
people watchers or what I call silent wolfs, because it
means that what they're seeing out there and not talking about,
people like yourself are saying, yeah, we need to talk
about this.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Yes, I mean, that's certainly my hope. I think most
people in the United States are by nature lions. They're dutiful,
they want to make their community better, they want to
strengthen the social fabric, innovate risk take, you know, make
their family more wealthy and stronger. And I think that
they're very annoyed with the envious ethos, the grievance culture
of the scavenger. But I'm hoping that the book gives
voice to that and explanation of what it is that
(00:39):
they're seeing, so they know not only that what they're
seeing is in some sort of figment of the imagination,
but that it has very solid and very scary roots
that need to be fought.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
During the COVID lockdown, I was craving people because I
love people, so I took on an essential job at
a grocery store, never realizing that there are a lot
of scavengers that come to a grocery store. But I
don't want to look at them as being negative. I
want to learn the positive side so I can work
with them. And I think your book opens up that
door to where you can say, there's two sides to
a scavenger. It's more than just what you assume.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, well, I mean I think that the goal of
the book is to point out that every human being
has within them a line and a scavenger. And we
have to get up every morning and decide whether we're
going to be dutiful, whether we're going to take our
problems in hand try to solve them ourselves, whether we're
going to try and make the world better, or whether
we're going to externalize all those problems and turn those
problems into society's problems and then try to tear down
all of the systems. And so I think we can
(01:29):
have sympathy for people who have fallen into envy, but
we also have to offer them a way out of
that envy, and if they don't take it, then that's
a different story.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
And yet I find myself respecting a lot of scavengers,
because I mean, I grew up in Montana, we raise chickens.
Here in the Carolinas, we have hawks inside this foreside
to live within, and I also have vultures, and so
those are scavengers, but they do good things.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Well. Again, I think that the human scavengers may be
slightly different. So you know, I think that scavengers in
the animal kingdom may be part of a symbiotic biological
system and ecosystem, but scavenger on the human level tend
to be people who tear down systems and don't actually
offer much in return.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
You scare the bagbi's out of me. Though, when you
say any civilization that loses its confidence trouble awaits, you
are so right about that. And if that is not
a wake up call for the average Joe.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the biggest thing here
is that we are always just a moment away from
envy taking control. Once envy takes control, and all the
systems that we rely upon to actually provide us prosperity
and freedom, those can be dissolved in a moment.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Envy is incredibly powerful.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
It's incredibly powerful, and I think that you know, because
we live in an age of social media where env
can go viral very quickly, and it's not hard to
find other people who are also aggrieved and envious. You
can find a civilization in very, very deep waters if
lions don't stand up and say no and don't inculcate
in their kids the importance of having lieon like values,
(02:51):
because the kids of the lines can easily become scavengers.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Please do not move. There's more with Ben Shapiro coming
up next. The name of his book Lions and Scavengers,
The True Story of America. We're back with Ben Shapiro.
There are so many people that I know that are
lions inside their soul, but they don't want to deal
with the weight of it. They don't want to grow
in the business and really kind of educate the future
when it comes to business, Like I want to meet
(03:15):
the person that is going to finally convince people that
we need to put pipes in the ground, they need
to do labor work in the way of getting this
nation's foundation back together. I can't find those people that
one will make that make that investment.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, I mean again, it's very difficult, and I think
that there are a lot of people who've been taught
by government large ass and by welfare programs largely, that
you can be a scavenger, and that somehow it's owed
to you, as opposed to what America really was built on,
which was the idea you're going to cross an ocean
with pretty much nothing in your pocket, and then you're
going to make a life for yourself. And if you
can't do that, you're going to cross a mountain and
(03:47):
try and make a life for yourself. And if you
can't do that, you're going to cross a gigantic river
in the middle of country and then just keep going.
That's sort of hie in your spirit that made America
great in the first place, that still lives in the
heart of many Americans. But I think that it's easy
to put that that spirit to sleep by saying that
that you sort of deserve all of these things they
magically emerge for you, as opposed to the reality, which
is that you actually have to go out and you
(04:08):
have to hunt. You have to go out, and you
have to innovate and risk take and change your own life.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Interesting that you say that, because I just saw a
report on those that do instacart and they're being called
modern day entrepreneurs, because you have to be able to survive.
You've got to be a lion. You've got to put
that day together. And if you're not making money, that's
your fault because you didn't show up.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I mean, I think there's a lot of truth to that,
and the reality is that fewer Americans are now moving
just in terms of like moving across country to get
a job, and anytime in American history. Now, if you
think about how absurd that is, think about the fact
that that is a lower percentage of people who are
moving now than we're moving seventy years ago, when you
literally had to take weeks to cross the country, because
it wasn't like you just loaded some stuff into a
(04:48):
truck and then you got on a plane, you went
across the country, you settled down, and all this stuff
was brought to your front door. I mean, it was
like the Joe do you take a bunch of your
crap and you load it up on the back of
a model t and you have to cross the country.
And people would move for jobs. They understood that's a
thing that you have to do. Instead, what you end
up with is a group of large, large scale government
dependents in major cities who are complaining the rent is
too high, and the rent is too high because it's
(05:10):
being rent controlled and subsidized, and welfare dollars are going in,
and government jobs and nonprofits are being funded by taxpayers,
and of course they're coming away with the perception that
all of this is sort of natural. Can the natural
state of human beings, just economically speaking, is poverty. That's
the actual natural state of humans. It is only because
of commerce and free trade and capitalism and innovation and
risk taking that we are not all impoverished.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Because back in about seventeen ninety, pretty much everybody.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Was The name of the book is Lions and Scavengers,
The True Story of America. I am in fear of
this thing chat GPT because I think it's dumbing down
the lions. What's your research show? I mean, I'm definitely
concerned about that.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
So one of the things that AI is demonstrating is
that people will use it as a tool, and in
the same way that, for example, using a calculator has
eroded the ability of people to do basic kind ofmental math.
If chat GPT does that for everything, people are reading less,
people are thinking less, people are writing less, and these
are parts of the brain that actually you do need
to develop. And so when it comes to how we
(06:06):
do childhood education, it's very important not to introduce this
stuff too soon because if kids don't know how to write,
writing is actually a way of thinking. And so we
really have to determine what it is that's important in
education so we can continue to have people who think
as opposed to just sort of regurgitate whatever it is
the I tells in that.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Say, so, what is the best way to approach a
lion and or a scavenger? Because I mean, I don't
want to offend anybody. I just want them to say
I hear you, I hear you, and I have enough
compassion and empathy for you.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
So again, I think that the best way to approach
a scavenger if you are a lion is to be firm.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
It doesn't mean you have to be rude.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Doesn't it mean you have to be impolite, But you
can't compromise your values, and you can't be apologetic about
those values just because it may be somewhat awkward if
you are unapologetic.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
That's the biggest thing.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
I think that the lion's being apologetic and sort of
showing their neck has been a huge, huge cultural mistake
simply saying these are our values. You don't have to
like it, but these are what our values are, and
these are the values of the country. That is a
good thing, and people can either adjust to that or
they can't adjust to it.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Where can people go to find out more about you, Ben,
because seven or eight minutes with you is just not enough.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Well, you can check me out over on my podcast
Ben Shapiro Show, which is available every day. You can
go get the book at Amazon, you can get our
website daily wire dot com signed, and you can get
it anywhere books are sold, as well as on audible.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Well, you got to come back to this show any
time in the future. The door is always going to
be open for you. Van, thanks so much, appreciate it.
Be brilliant today.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Okay, thanks so much, you too,
In Shapiro. I've got to tell you, this book right
here is amazing in so many ways. I think it's
going to bring a rise to the people that are
people watchers or what I call silent wolfs, because it
means that what they're seeing out there and not talking about,
people like yourself are saying, yeah, we need to talk
about this.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Yes, I mean, that's certainly my hope. I think most
people in the United States are by nature lions. They're dutiful,
they want to make their community better, they want to
strengthen the social fabric, innovate risk take, you know, make
their family more wealthy and stronger. And I think that
they're very annoyed with the envious ethos, the grievance culture
of the scavenger. But I'm hoping that the book gives
voice to that and explanation of what it is that
(00:39):
they're seeing, so they know not only that what they're
seeing is in some sort of figment of the imagination,
but that it has very solid and very scary roots
that need to be fought.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
During the COVID lockdown, I was craving people because I
love people, so I took on an essential job at
a grocery store, never realizing that there are a lot
of scavengers that come to a grocery store. But I
don't want to look at them as being negative. I
want to learn the positive side so I can work
with them. And I think your book opens up that
door to where you can say, there's two sides to
a scavenger. It's more than just what you assume.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yeah, well, I mean I think that the goal of
the book is to point out that every human being
has within them a line and a scavenger. And we
have to get up every morning and decide whether we're
going to be dutiful, whether we're going to take our
problems in hand try to solve them ourselves, whether we're
going to try and make the world better, or whether
we're going to externalize all those problems and turn those
problems into society's problems and then try to tear down
all of the systems. And so I think we can
(01:29):
have sympathy for people who have fallen into envy, but
we also have to offer them a way out of
that envy, and if they don't take it, then that's
a different story.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
And yet I find myself respecting a lot of scavengers,
because I mean, I grew up in Montana, we raise chickens.
Here in the Carolinas, we have hawks inside this foreside
to live within, and I also have vultures, and so
those are scavengers, but they do good things.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Well. Again, I think that the human scavengers may be
slightly different. So you know, I think that scavengers in
the animal kingdom may be part of a symbiotic biological
system and ecosystem, but scavenger on the human level tend
to be people who tear down systems and don't actually
offer much in return.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
You scare the bagbi's out of me. Though, when you
say any civilization that loses its confidence trouble awaits, you
are so right about that. And if that is not
a wake up call for the average Joe.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the biggest thing here
is that we are always just a moment away from
envy taking control. Once envy takes control, and all the
systems that we rely upon to actually provide us prosperity
and freedom, those can be dissolved in a moment.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Envy is incredibly powerful.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
It's incredibly powerful, and I think that you know, because
we live in an age of social media where env
can go viral very quickly, and it's not hard to
find other people who are also aggrieved and envious. You
can find a civilization in very, very deep waters if
lions don't stand up and say no and don't inculcate
in their kids the importance of having lieon like values,
(02:51):
because the kids of the lines can easily become scavengers.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
Please do not move. There's more with Ben Shapiro coming
up next. The name of his book Lions and Scavengers,
The True Story of America. We're back with Ben Shapiro.
There are so many people that I know that are
lions inside their soul, but they don't want to deal
with the weight of it. They don't want to grow
in the business and really kind of educate the future
when it comes to business, Like I want to meet
(03:15):
the person that is going to finally convince people that
we need to put pipes in the ground, they need
to do labor work in the way of getting this
nation's foundation back together. I can't find those people that
one will make that make that investment.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, I mean again, it's very difficult, and I think
that there are a lot of people who've been taught
by government large ass and by welfare programs largely, that
you can be a scavenger, and that somehow it's owed
to you, as opposed to what America really was built on,
which was the idea you're going to cross an ocean
with pretty much nothing in your pocket, and then you're
going to make a life for yourself. And if you
can't do that, you're going to cross a mountain and
(03:47):
try and make a life for yourself. And if you
can't do that, you're going to cross a gigantic river
in the middle of country and then just keep going.
That's sort of hie in your spirit that made America
great in the first place, that still lives in the
heart of many Americans. But I think that it's easy
to put that that spirit to sleep by saying that
that you sort of deserve all of these things they
magically emerge for you, as opposed to the reality, which
is that you actually have to go out and you
(04:08):
have to hunt. You have to go out, and you
have to innovate and risk take and change your own life.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Interesting that you say that, because I just saw a
report on those that do instacart and they're being called
modern day entrepreneurs, because you have to be able to survive.
You've got to be a lion. You've got to put
that day together. And if you're not making money, that's
your fault because you didn't show up.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I mean, I think there's a lot of truth to that,
and the reality is that fewer Americans are now moving
just in terms of like moving across country to get
a job, and anytime in American history. Now, if you
think about how absurd that is, think about the fact
that that is a lower percentage of people who are
moving now than we're moving seventy years ago, when you
literally had to take weeks to cross the country, because
it wasn't like you just loaded some stuff into a
(04:48):
truck and then you got on a plane, you went
across the country, you settled down, and all this stuff
was brought to your front door. I mean, it was
like the Joe do you take a bunch of your
crap and you load it up on the back of
a model t and you have to cross the country.
And people would move for jobs. They understood that's a
thing that you have to do. Instead, what you end
up with is a group of large, large scale government
dependents in major cities who are complaining the rent is
too high, and the rent is too high because it's
(05:10):
being rent controlled and subsidized, and welfare dollars are going in,
and government jobs and nonprofits are being funded by taxpayers,
and of course they're coming away with the perception that
all of this is sort of natural. Can the natural
state of human beings, just economically speaking, is poverty. That's
the actual natural state of humans. It is only because
of commerce and free trade and capitalism and innovation and
risk taking that we are not all impoverished.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Because back in about seventeen ninety, pretty much everybody.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Was The name of the book is Lions and Scavengers,
The True Story of America. I am in fear of
this thing chat GPT because I think it's dumbing down
the lions. What's your research show? I mean, I'm definitely
concerned about that.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
So one of the things that AI is demonstrating is
that people will use it as a tool, and in
the same way that, for example, using a calculator has
eroded the ability of people to do basic kind ofmental math.
If chat GPT does that for everything, people are reading less,
people are thinking less, people are writing less, and these
are parts of the brain that actually you do need
to develop. And so when it comes to how we
(06:06):
do childhood education, it's very important not to introduce this
stuff too soon because if kids don't know how to write,
writing is actually a way of thinking. And so we
really have to determine what it is that's important in
education so we can continue to have people who think
as opposed to just sort of regurgitate whatever it is
the I tells in that.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Say, so, what is the best way to approach a
lion and or a scavenger? Because I mean, I don't
want to offend anybody. I just want them to say
I hear you, I hear you, and I have enough
compassion and empathy for you.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
So again, I think that the best way to approach
a scavenger if you are a lion is to be firm.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
It doesn't mean you have to be rude.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Doesn't it mean you have to be impolite, But you
can't compromise your values, and you can't be apologetic about
those values just because it may be somewhat awkward if
you are unapologetic.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
That's the biggest thing.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
I think that the lion's being apologetic and sort of
showing their neck has been a huge, huge cultural mistake
simply saying these are our values. You don't have to
like it, but these are what our values are, and
these are the values of the country. That is a
good thing, and people can either adjust to that or
they can't adjust to it.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Where can people go to find out more about you, Ben,
because seven or eight minutes with you is just not enough.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Well, you can check me out over on my podcast
Ben Shapiro Show, which is available every day. You can
go get the book at Amazon, you can get our
website daily wire dot com signed, and you can get
it anywhere books are sold, as well as on audible.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Well, you got to come back to this show any
time in the future. The door is always going to
be open for you. Van, thanks so much, appreciate it.
Be brilliant today.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Okay, thanks so much, you too,
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