September 25, 2025 • 11 mins
Higher education is at a turning point. The current model of higher education was built for the industrial era and needs to be transformed, according to Arthur Levine, author of the previously published The Great Upheaval: Higher Education’s Past, Present, and Uncertain Future. He has a new book coming out in spring 2026. He is not promoting either book at this time. Nationally known educational thought leader and Brandeis University President Arthur Levine has been at the forefront of the changing role of higher education. He argues that in the next 20 years, college will be reinvented. Consumers of higher education will determine what higher education will be, and that every institution will have to change. All colleges—especially liberal arts colleges —need to be more closely tied to the needs of the workplace and must change traditional structures, curricula, programs, degree offerings, teaching methods, career education, and student support systems. The proposed changes address concerns of both parents and the needs of employers—finding workers whose skills match what they need.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How are you doing today, Arthur, I'm doing well.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
How about you?
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Absolutely free to talk to you again. Well, man, I'll
tell you what. It's because you you share stories that
affect our lives on a daily basis, because not only
are you unafraid to dig in, but you're saying, hey, look,
we need to correct a situation here and it's not
as hard as what you think it is, but we
need to start working on it.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
One of the things I mean, and this, this latest
one that you're really putting a lot of time into
reinventing college has affected me as an instructor. And the
reason why is because AI technology is telling these these
school owners you got to make a change and this
is this is where people are. Do you agree that
that's where we need to be going, Where a computer
decides where where the student is mentally and physically.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
No. I believe we have to make dramatic changes. And
the reason we have to make dramatic changes is that
when I went to school, we lived in an analog society.
There were in computers. Now we're living in a digital
society in which we have artificial intelligence, we have virtual reality,
(01:06):
we have any number of different things coming down the pike,
and colleges are only successful when they're able to add
those things to the kinds of programs they offer. They
can't offer a program that was appropriate for the parents
and the students we're now educating.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Now, Arthur. One of the things that I'm seeing a
lot of these days, and it has affected my own
personal family, they will go first year at a university
and they drop out. That dropout rate is through the roof.
Why are we seeing this?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
The dropout rate has been fairly constant. One of the
things that increased it a few decades ago is that
when after World War Two, college had twenty percent of
the population, now it has sixty percent of population. What
that means is we're having students who are coming with
(02:04):
different levels of knowledge, different levels of skills, different ability
to succeed.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
So then we've got to tap into that inside the student.
And I'll give you a good example. My daughter didn't
finish high school because she was so bored. But yet
she graduated from UCLA and came back to Carolina and
got yet another master's degree because she was able to
tap into what she loves.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
That's exactly it. You've just hit the nail on the head.
One of the things that we really got to do.
The colleges, the liberal arts undergrad education is most successful
in it has one foot in the library, you know,
the accumulated knowledge of humanity, and one foot in the street.
(02:50):
That's the real world. When the world changes quickly, isn't
doing now dramatically, profoundly, acceleratingly, rapidly. What happens is the
colleges the university's lose traction with the street and they
need to restore it. And unless they do, what they're
offering students is an education that's impractical.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
So do you think colleges and universities will adopt the
idea that these trade schools have where they've gone a
lakarte what is it you need to know? Will show
you that in the fewest amount of minutes.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
I don't think so. I think colleges have two sets
of skills to teach students. And if brandeis who we
just did, was adopted, we transformed our curriculum. Eighty eight
percent of the faculty were ready to do this. And
what we're doing now is we're saying, you know, we're
going to if you're a liberal arts education, that's going
to teach you the life skills. It will teach you
(03:44):
critical thinking, it'll teach you communication. But we're also going
to teach you the specific skills that you need for
the career that you want to enter. And so what
we're doing now is we're assigning every student career advisor
the day they enter. What we're doing is providing experiences
(04:07):
in the workplace for students. And finally, we're creating a
second transcript, which doesn't indicate the courses they took. That's
the first transcript. What this indicates is what they can
actually do and what they actually know. Yes, the competencies
that students master.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
A while in college, Please do not move. There's more
with Arthur Levine coming up next Reinventing College, the man
that brought us the book The Great Upheaval, Higher Education, Past,
Present and Uncertain Future. We're back with Arthur Levine. But
of course, you know, being a parent, I have to
(04:44):
ask that question, can we still make education affordable or
is it just going to be outpriced us?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
And here parents have to look very carefully. I mean,
for example, at brandeis what we do is we meet
full need. If you can't afford to pay for it,
we don't charge you.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
The deal for us is that if you have an
income below a certain level is new at Chorage for tuition.
What happens in the addition is and every student tool
applause is offered financially to match their need. That's essential
for going to give students the quality of education to deserve. Wow.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
So now how can someone find out more about that?
I mean, you definitely perked up my attention here, dude.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Great, Great, have your daughter come with our next matters?
All they need to do is go to our website
and look at admissions and financially. Wow.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So now another question that I really have to dive into.
When it comes to a changing university or college campus
that leads to business, do you not think that decision
makers need to change as well and their thought process.
I feel like that we're on the corner of walk
and don't walk right now.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
I'm not quite sure what you're asking me. Do you
mean should there be a different business model for higher education? Well?
Speaker 1 (06:07):
I think that in the business place. I mean these
decision makers who are doing the deciding when it comes
to who comes on their team I think that there
they don't fit the mold. What they're doing is they're
they're saying, this is what I need, this is what
I need, not even realizing what the customer or the
client needs exactly.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
That happens too too frequently in higher education. We know
the customer doesn't know. We know the student doesn't know.
That's one of the reasons we changed our curriculum this way.
What we were telling the student we knew well most
colleges know. It is something that's dated and tired and
(06:46):
changes very slowly.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
You know, you brought up something that I that I
really do not want to ignore, and that is critical thinking,
because that area of our thoughts and processes and personal
experiences has taken on such a such a negative overtone.
But yet when we when you sit down and do
the research on critical thinking, we need it as human beings.
That's how we stay ahead of our own personal games,
because if we're not thinking for ourselves, we're a follower.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
You're exactly right in terms of critical thinking. What happens
is I can teach you a computer language today the
arts are real good. That computer language is going to
disappear yep in a few years. We need to give
you the skills that are required for you to keep
updating what you know and what you can do. Critical
(07:34):
thinking is essential for that. And also in this world
and which we're all surrounded by echo chambers, you've got
to be able to figure out what's true and what's not.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
So then, if we're talking about making big changes on
the universities and the college campuses, what about under that?
What about those that are graduating as seniors this year
in high school or even let's go into the middle
school ages, because it seems like a lot is going
on there, but it's not paying off. There are no
numbers to really back things up.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yes, we've got a crazy system of education yah, which
is based on time, wholly on time, so that what
happens is we sort of reward you for spending one
hundred and eighty days a year in a school classroom.
We don't care what you learned. What we care is
what you're taught. It's time we've changed. We need to
(08:28):
focus on learning. What happens is we fix the amount
of time I can learn through subjects the same rate.
I'm really good at math, but I'm allows me at
foreign languages. I need more time. Let's make the time variable.
I only count student mastery and student learning. That's where
we ought to focus.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
That is so interesting that you bring that up, Arthur.
And the reason why is because in martial arts, I'm
a third degree black belt and the one thing that
my master told me over and over again, do not
try to master everything. Master only one thing and everything
else will follow.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Well, I think you have a good master, and I
think I don't want to get into a fight with that.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
No, I don't know that true martial artists is not
about fighting. It's about walking away. That's that's that's that's
probably one of the biggest misconceptions is that people, Oh,
I don't I don't want to fight you. Well, you're
not going to because I won't put myself in that situation.
It's because that's how we're trained.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Nonethe lest I don't want to meet a third degree
block the way that it will walk away.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
So then the average degree today. In other words, I
talked about my daughter having two masters. Is it of
value today? Does it really have value?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah? But I mean given that we're living in a
knowledge economy, and given that sixty percent of people are
going let me let me step back from that. Given
that we're in a knowledge economy, it's essential that people
have education beyond college. But that's not enough. It's not
any education beyond college. What we realized the Frandize was
(10:01):
it has to focus on the careers that students are
going to enter. We need to give them those skills
or they're not going to get a job.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Yeah, but don't you think and once again I'm going
to bring up martial arts here, do you not think
that what students are doing with the education that they
are digesting, it's no different than somebody who says I
want the black belt and they stop at black belt
number one, when in fact, all that is is a letter.
Learn how to put together sentences, which creates paragraphs, which
creates a story. And I think education sometimes has got
to be that way. Do not stop because this class
(10:30):
said this is where we're going to reach reach beyond that.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I think that's a good way to look at the world.
But I think for students who are buying higher education,
what do you want to buy is the education they
really need, the kind of education they need to thrive
in the world as human beings, and the kind of
education they need to get the job they want. People
often come to me and say, should I get a PhD?
(10:54):
I'm thinking about getting a phdad. Why would you do that?
The only reason to get a PhD is that you
can't bear not to study the subject, or alternatively, you
absolutely need that credential whatever's coming next. If neither one
is true, don't get a PhD, you get a job.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Arthur, you are creating the conversation. Now we have to
create the activation. Where can people go to find out
more about what you are sharing? Because ten minutes with
you is not enough, because I know there are a
lifetime of experiences inside your visions.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
You are terrific. Thank you. Go to the Brandis website.
All of this is spelled out, the changes in the world,
the changes in the program, and the needs for tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Oh man, you know you can come back to this
show anytime in the future. That door is always going
to be open for you.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Arthur, you are really coned. I'll see you in an hour.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Right, you'd be brilliant today.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Okay, you're terrific. I'm really grateful. Thank you.
How are you doing today, Arthur, I'm doing well.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
How about you?
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Absolutely free to talk to you again. Well, man, I'll
tell you what. It's because you you share stories that
affect our lives on a daily basis, because not only
are you unafraid to dig in, but you're saying, hey, look,
we need to correct a situation here and it's not
as hard as what you think it is, but we
need to start working on it.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
One of the things I mean, and this, this latest
one that you're really putting a lot of time into
reinventing college has affected me as an instructor. And the
reason why is because AI technology is telling these these
school owners you got to make a change and this
is this is where people are. Do you agree that
that's where we need to be going, Where a computer
decides where where the student is mentally and physically.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
No. I believe we have to make dramatic changes. And
the reason we have to make dramatic changes is that
when I went to school, we lived in an analog society.
There were in computers. Now we're living in a digital
society in which we have artificial intelligence, we have virtual reality,
(01:06):
we have any number of different things coming down the pike,
and colleges are only successful when they're able to add
those things to the kinds of programs they offer. They
can't offer a program that was appropriate for the parents
and the students we're now educating.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Now, Arthur. One of the things that I'm seeing a
lot of these days, and it has affected my own
personal family, they will go first year at a university
and they drop out. That dropout rate is through the roof.
Why are we seeing this?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
The dropout rate has been fairly constant. One of the
things that increased it a few decades ago is that
when after World War Two, college had twenty percent of
the population, now it has sixty percent of population. What
that means is we're having students who are coming with
(02:04):
different levels of knowledge, different levels of skills, different ability
to succeed.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
So then we've got to tap into that inside the student.
And I'll give you a good example. My daughter didn't
finish high school because she was so bored. But yet
she graduated from UCLA and came back to Carolina and
got yet another master's degree because she was able to
tap into what she loves.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
That's exactly it. You've just hit the nail on the head.
One of the things that we really got to do.
The colleges, the liberal arts undergrad education is most successful
in it has one foot in the library, you know,
the accumulated knowledge of humanity, and one foot in the street.
(02:50):
That's the real world. When the world changes quickly, isn't
doing now dramatically, profoundly, acceleratingly, rapidly. What happens is the
colleges the university's lose traction with the street and they
need to restore it. And unless they do, what they're
offering students is an education that's impractical.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
So do you think colleges and universities will adopt the
idea that these trade schools have where they've gone a
lakarte what is it you need to know? Will show
you that in the fewest amount of minutes.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
I don't think so. I think colleges have two sets
of skills to teach students. And if brandeis who we
just did, was adopted, we transformed our curriculum. Eighty eight
percent of the faculty were ready to do this. And
what we're doing now is we're saying, you know, we're
going to if you're a liberal arts education, that's going
to teach you the life skills. It will teach you
(03:44):
critical thinking, it'll teach you communication. But we're also going
to teach you the specific skills that you need for
the career that you want to enter. And so what
we're doing now is we're assigning every student career advisor
the day they enter. What we're doing is providing experiences
(04:07):
in the workplace for students. And finally, we're creating a
second transcript, which doesn't indicate the courses they took. That's
the first transcript. What this indicates is what they can
actually do and what they actually know. Yes, the competencies
that students master.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
A while in college, Please do not move. There's more
with Arthur Levine coming up next Reinventing College, the man
that brought us the book The Great Upheaval, Higher Education, Past,
Present and Uncertain Future. We're back with Arthur Levine. But
of course, you know, being a parent, I have to
(04:44):
ask that question, can we still make education affordable or
is it just going to be outpriced us?
Speaker 2 (04:51):
And here parents have to look very carefully. I mean,
for example, at brandeis what we do is we meet
full need. If you can't afford to pay for it,
we don't charge you.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
The deal for us is that if you have an
income below a certain level is new at Chorage for tuition.
What happens in the addition is and every student tool
applause is offered financially to match their need. That's essential
for going to give students the quality of education to deserve. Wow.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
So now how can someone find out more about that?
I mean, you definitely perked up my attention here, dude.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Great, Great, have your daughter come with our next matters?
All they need to do is go to our website
and look at admissions and financially. Wow.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So now another question that I really have to dive into.
When it comes to a changing university or college campus
that leads to business, do you not think that decision
makers need to change as well and their thought process.
I feel like that we're on the corner of walk
and don't walk right now.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
I'm not quite sure what you're asking me. Do you
mean should there be a different business model for higher education? Well?
Speaker 1 (06:07):
I think that in the business place. I mean these
decision makers who are doing the deciding when it comes
to who comes on their team I think that there
they don't fit the mold. What they're doing is they're
they're saying, this is what I need, this is what
I need, not even realizing what the customer or the
client needs exactly.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
That happens too too frequently in higher education. We know
the customer doesn't know. We know the student doesn't know.
That's one of the reasons we changed our curriculum this way.
What we were telling the student we knew well most
colleges know. It is something that's dated and tired and
(06:46):
changes very slowly.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
You know, you brought up something that I that I
really do not want to ignore, and that is critical thinking,
because that area of our thoughts and processes and personal
experiences has taken on such a such a negative overtone.
But yet when we when you sit down and do
the research on critical thinking, we need it as human beings.
That's how we stay ahead of our own personal games,
because if we're not thinking for ourselves, we're a follower.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
You're exactly right in terms of critical thinking. What happens
is I can teach you a computer language today the
arts are real good. That computer language is going to
disappear yep in a few years. We need to give
you the skills that are required for you to keep
updating what you know and what you can do. Critical
(07:34):
thinking is essential for that. And also in this world
and which we're all surrounded by echo chambers, you've got
to be able to figure out what's true and what's not.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
So then, if we're talking about making big changes on
the universities and the college campuses, what about under that?
What about those that are graduating as seniors this year
in high school or even let's go into the middle
school ages, because it seems like a lot is going
on there, but it's not paying off. There are no
numbers to really back things up.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yes, we've got a crazy system of education yah, which
is based on time, wholly on time, so that what
happens is we sort of reward you for spending one
hundred and eighty days a year in a school classroom.
We don't care what you learned. What we care is
what you're taught. It's time we've changed. We need to
(08:28):
focus on learning. What happens is we fix the amount
of time I can learn through subjects the same rate.
I'm really good at math, but I'm allows me at
foreign languages. I need more time. Let's make the time variable.
I only count student mastery and student learning. That's where
we ought to focus.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
That is so interesting that you bring that up, Arthur.
And the reason why is because in martial arts, I'm
a third degree black belt and the one thing that
my master told me over and over again, do not
try to master everything. Master only one thing and everything
else will follow.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Well, I think you have a good master, and I
think I don't want to get into a fight with that.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
No, I don't know that true martial artists is not
about fighting. It's about walking away. That's that's that's that's
probably one of the biggest misconceptions is that people, Oh,
I don't I don't want to fight you. Well, you're
not going to because I won't put myself in that situation.
It's because that's how we're trained.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Nonethe lest I don't want to meet a third degree
block the way that it will walk away.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
So then the average degree today. In other words, I
talked about my daughter having two masters. Is it of
value today? Does it really have value?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah? But I mean given that we're living in a
knowledge economy, and given that sixty percent of people are
going let me let me step back from that. Given
that we're in a knowledge economy, it's essential that people
have education beyond college. But that's not enough. It's not
any education beyond college. What we realized the Frandize was
(10:01):
it has to focus on the careers that students are
going to enter. We need to give them those skills
or they're not going to get a job.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Yeah, but don't you think and once again I'm going
to bring up martial arts here, do you not think
that what students are doing with the education that they
are digesting, it's no different than somebody who says I
want the black belt and they stop at black belt
number one, when in fact, all that is is a letter.
Learn how to put together sentences, which creates paragraphs, which
creates a story. And I think education sometimes has got
to be that way. Do not stop because this class
(10:30):
said this is where we're going to reach reach beyond that.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I think that's a good way to look at the world.
But I think for students who are buying higher education,
what do you want to buy is the education they
really need, the kind of education they need to thrive
in the world as human beings, and the kind of
education they need to get the job they want. People
often come to me and say, should I get a PhD?
(10:54):
I'm thinking about getting a phdad. Why would you do that?
The only reason to get a PhD is that you
can't bear not to study the subject, or alternatively, you
absolutely need that credential whatever's coming next. If neither one
is true, don't get a PhD, you get a job.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Arthur, you are creating the conversation. Now we have to
create the activation. Where can people go to find out
more about what you are sharing? Because ten minutes with
you is not enough, because I know there are a
lifetime of experiences inside your visions.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
You are terrific. Thank you. Go to the Brandis website.
All of this is spelled out, the changes in the world,
the changes in the program, and the needs for tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Oh man, you know you can come back to this
show anytime in the future. That door is always going
to be open for you.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Arthur, you are really coned. I'll see you in an hour.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Right, you'd be brilliant today.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Okay, you're terrific. I'm really grateful. Thank you.
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