December 15, 2025 • 21 mins
The Brothers Ortiz is the story of two brothers-both successful, but in very different ways. Gabe Ortiz becomes a third-highest ranking officer in all of Texas; while his younger brother Larry climbs the ranks in Puro Tango Blast, a notorious Texas Prison gang.Gabe doesn't know all the details of his brother's nefarious dealings, and he's made a point not to ask, to protect their relationship. But when Larry is murdered during a home invasion in a rented beach house, Gabe has no choice but to look into what happened that night. To solve Larry's murder, Gabe, and the whole Ortiz family, must ask each other tough questions.Episodes available here: Https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-the-brothers-ortiz-308942436/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I first arrived inside this forest in November of nineteen
ninety two, and right away I had to know what
is the history of this lay of land, what happened
here and how did it happen? What was the foresight
of what was about to take place? The arrival of humans?
Four stories on aro dot net A R r oe
dot net enjoy the exploration. So how do I say this?
(00:23):
I'm just going to say it. Talk to your neighbor
for twenty minutes. I'm go get a cup of tea.
Ooh what does he mean by neighbor?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Are you in this area, Sean, I'm in Durham.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Oh you are my neighbor?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Then, oh I am. Oh, I'm in the cool part
of the state.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I was going to say, you know how that competition
is between Charlotte and the Durham Raleigh area. It's like, okay, yes,
so you guys still exist on that side of the ocean.
Then huh, dude, how did you get involved in this project?
Because I mean, I being a broadcast instructor to sit
down with people who think that they've got that gift
in order to make a podcast happen, and then I
(00:56):
bump into someone like you and I'm going this guy
is a genius the way he could And I mean, seriously,
do do you do you listen to the way that
you share a story. It's almost like you know that
I am right there with you because the way that
you describe the colorizing, the scent of the air, everything,
and it's like, dude, them right here.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
You know my well, thank you for one. My background
is in print journalism. I've been a magazine writer since
the nineties, uh, for a very long time. And you
you learn to to to you know, it's what do
they say? They say show don't tell all the time,
so you sort of get into those habits to get
(01:36):
used to it. But then when I shifted over to
the audio, the first thing I learned is that there's
a big difference between written words and talking words. You know,
you've got to you've got to change your syntax, You've
got to change your rhythm and your pacic well you
know all this stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
You're a professional here.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Unfortunately, I had some really really good teachers. The producers
at camp said, uh, I think as we started doing
these shows, we just we got better and better at it.
My producer on this one lane was Blaine Rose was fantastic.
We had a great story editor and Audrey Quinn and
our sound design that's guaranteed him and he's just top notch.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
But you know, but I think the thing that really
inspires me here and it really is inspiring me, and
that is the way that you have this conversation on
the podcast where you're not sounding like a journalist, you're
not sounding like a radio disc jockey. Because that's a
transition that a lot of radio people have to move through,
is that this ain't radio. You got to have a
real conversation here.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
So yeah, thank you Sheen for that, because that's I
learned that as a print journalist. You know, whenever I
talked to college classes, I always get some variation of
how did you get someone to say this or say that?
And for years I never quite interested the question. But
it finally dawned on me when I spent about two
(03:00):
hours with a very young widow whose husband had been
blown up in the deep water horizon and her lawyer
was very, very hesitant to let me talk to her,
but I finally met her for lunch. We talked for
about two hours, and her lawyer called me immediately. A
little bit steamed, and she said, what did you do.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
To my client?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
He said, you know, I bought her lunch. And he says, well,
she said, you didn't ask her any questions. Oh, and
I thought that was fascinating. It sounds like a conversation
because it is a conversation. That's the way you get
people to talk to you is nobody likes to be grilled,
nobody likes to you.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
So you do believe in that philosophy, then of that
sometimes you don't need to ask a question, just place
a sentence out there or a statement and then sit
back and fill that dead air up with something.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, dead air is a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Well yeah, you go into editing and all of a sudden,
there's no dead airy. What are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
But there you go. You know.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
But what's really interesting about this is that the way
that you share this story with the Ortiz brothers, what
is the relationship because I mean, I mean it's like
did it fall onto your lap? I mean, how did
you read about this story and thought I'm going to
take the step I'm going to find out more because
I've been on chat, GPT or Google all day. I
need to have real voices and not a computer screen.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
So this is this this, uh, this came my way
the way all the best stories do. A friend of
a friend of a friend. There was I knew someone
who knew someone who knew Gabe, and he just happened
to hear the story.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
It was. There was not a lot of press coverage
when it happened. There was some some local news that
was that was.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
It, and then it was sort of you know that
that little game of telephone there. So of course the
message gets a little bit garbleed by the time it
gets to me. And it was first told to me
as this cop having to investigate the death of his brother,
the murder of his brother, which struck me as odd, yeah,
(05:03):
wildly unethical and have you full of all sorts of
jurisdictional problems. But I called up Gabe and uh, we
talked for a long time. We talked for probably a
couple of hours, and he explained the whole thing and
and what he didn't know then. There was a lot
(05:23):
of things about his brother Larry that Gabe didn't know then,
and he wouldn't find out until we actually did the
interviews for the podcast.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
But he told me enough of his story.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
That planeted that that that seed that Okay, he wasn't
investigating his brother's murder, but he was investigating his brother's
life because there's a whole bunch of his life that
Gabe doesn't know. And I'm getting a feeling that Gabe
didn't want to know, which is how it worked out.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah, because I mean I look at Gabe's journey as
being somebody that that that looks at where we are,
what what happened to Larry, and he's going, well, you know,
I'm not gonna go searching for the solution now until
I understand the actual footprint here and what was going
on here before the sand was indented. And that's what
I love about Gabe is the fact that he's going, Okay,
I'm gonna go where it was dirty, and then we're
(06:12):
gonna go from there, because there's obviously something here that
separated us.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and it was it may have just
been the simplest of things, you know, it's you look
back at your own life and you can see all
these spots where you might have taken a detour here,
a detour there. And there's a moment where Gabe's father
(06:36):
pushes Gabe onto one of those detours send him on
an off ramp out of Brazoria County. And by the
time Larry, four years younger, is coming into his troubled
teenage years, their father isn't there anymore. I mean he's there,
but he's going through his own struggles. And you know,
Larry doesn't get quite the same nudge. Well, it didn't
(06:59):
get any of the nuts that Gabe got. So it's
really you know, Gabe had to wonder what would have
happened if he'd stayed, if he remained in Presoria County.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Yeah, he probably he thinks he would have ended up
just like Larry, Are.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
You kidding me? See, I would have gone, oh my god,
I was leaning more in the opposite direction that that
Larry would have. Had, you know, a little bit firmer territory.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
There, he might have.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
But Gabe was, there's not a lot to do in
Brazoria County. There's just not well, at least in the
southern end of it. Houston is sort of bleeding into
the northern end. Yeah, and Gabe was, he was running
with a rough crowd too, and and you know, sure
(07:48):
he is going to school, but he's getting kicked out
of school. Yeah, he wonders what would have happened to him.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
See, do you ever look at, you know, a story
like this and then come back and look at where
you are in Durham in the way that you know,
how Carolina is. There's a lot of towns out there
that are basically just small town family communities, and it's like,
when there's nothing to do, where are they going to
cause and find the trouble?
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah, yeah, of course it's you know, Unfortunately, most people,
even Larry, I tell my kids this all the time,
Almost everyone is fundamentally decent. They will help you if
they can. Nobody's really you know, for for all the
vitriol and and all the online back and forth and
(08:33):
all the terrible things people say in public, most people
are pretty decent. And even in those small towns, they're
pretty decent. And what Larry was doing it was illegal,
But I just I don't see Larry as a bad guy.
He was doing the best he could with what he had.
(08:55):
And this idea that that, I mean, nobody forces you
to buy drug This is a demand economy. So if
people didn't want to buy his drugs, Larry wouldn't have
been selling him.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
He'd have found some other way to make a buck.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Please do not move. There's more with Sean Flynn coming
up next, the name of his podcast, Brothers or Tease.
We are back with Sean Flynn. Do you think that that,
you know, working with that gang and stuff like that,
do you think that became his his truer path? And
was he the decision maker in that or was or
was he a follower that became somebody in it? Uh?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I leaned towards the former that he was a decision maker.
It's sort of.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Well, it's it's a it's a combination. I mean, so
you know, when he's a little kid, he starts his
own little pretend gang. But then when he gets he
starts running with the crips. Yeah, he gets in the beginning,
he's a follower. But Larry's a big personality. Larry has got,
you know, that sort of intangible leadershi ship quality. He's smart.
(10:03):
He works incredibly hard. That's one thing everyone said about
Larry's He would always do an honest day's work for
an honest day's pay, even if what he was doing
was completely illegal. He worked, He hustled, people respected him,
and you know, some people feared him.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Was it an act of survival or was it one
of those situations where there's multiple personalities inside our friend Larry,
because you know, I mean, if if he wasn't in prison,
or if he wasn't in trouble, maybe he'd be a
radio disc jockey.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah, I think it was both.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
All of you guys are one step out of prison,
Yes we are.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
It was you know, it's almost.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Like survival might be just a touch too strong, but
it was definitely Larry doing what he had to do
to provide for his family, to provide for his sister
and his nieces and nephews, to provide for his own
kids and his own wife.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Of course, the irony here is if he'd just gone
and gotten a legit job, he wouldn't be going off
to prison, which obviously does nothing for your kids. It
just you know, if you're not there to provide for him,
you're not there. But Larry was, Yeah, you do what
(11:36):
you gotta do. That's that's Larry was making money the
best way he knew. And then plus, once you get
into that position, you're sort of stuck with it.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah. See, and I can so relate with this because
you know, coming from Montana, and I know that my
brother and I are two completely opposite people. He has
seen the inside of a cell I have not. I
don't want to do we ever get together? Hell no,
because I don't want to be poisoned by that, because
I mean, I think I could be swayed, just just
like Gabe could have easily been swayed.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Yeah that's interesting. Huh. So you don't have any contact
with him?
Speaker 1 (12:12):
No, no, how long as far back as I can remember, No, no, no,
I just I just I just That's why I moved
to Carolina. I'm two thousand, five hundred miles for a
reason that that's a good wall to be behind.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yeah, I get it. I was.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I was impressed with Gabe's ability to put up to
put on those blinkers. Okay, because it's I mean, everybody knew,
and I'm sure Gabe and his gut's new.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I mean, come on, it's his job to know.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
No, God, yes, but beause because you really want to
know if that were the stock market, that would be
inside trading, would it not? I mean, because see, I
mean that means because he's got the inside, he knows
how to get the information in order to either find
a solution or to help open a door.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Absolutely, you know, he was in a position once to
do his brother an enormous favor that we'll just wait
for that to come out in the show. But for
the most part, he really tried to keep those to
keep that distance to the extent that when Larry, near
(13:23):
the end of his life, just sort of out of
the blue, starts to confess things to him, he's legitimately
shocked and wondering, you know, having some self doubt there
is like how could I not know these things?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Yeah, God, I see situations like that, and you know,
and I think maybe because we're here in the South,
we can probably get away with talking like this. But
you know how those preachers are here in the South,
when you start talking about your past, you know, that's
God working that miracle. He's trying to clear that head.
And now I'm sitting here thinking what was Larry up to?
Was he trying to clear his heart?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (14:02):
I think I go back and forth on that because
there's a lot of talk gave Gabe and Larry's father
used to talk about generational curses, you know, God punishing
your children your grandchildren, your great grandchildren, for your sins,
(14:24):
And there was really some truth to that. The reason,
the reason Larry dies is actually kind of tragic. I mean,
not that any death wouldn't be tragic, but the reason
he dies, I don't know. Am I supposed to give
the ending away here?
Speaker 1 (14:42):
No? But no, let's let's do the modern day but
old fashioned cliffhanger in the way that you're going to
have to listen to this. But the thing is, though,
is that I think that people are going to see
and feel a compassion for Larry, that they're going to go,
Am I supposed to be having these feelings. I mean,
that's what you give to us in this Am I
supposed to be feeling like this? Oh my god? What
is the situation?
Speaker 3 (15:03):
You know?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Thank you?
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Because there were some people who didn't want to talk
to us because not a lot, but a few people
because they were convinced this was just going to be
Larry's a bad guy and Gabe's a good guy.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Yeah. I didn't see it that way.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
I Yeah, life is complicated, you know, And I don't
think Larry was a bad guy.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I think you just did a lot of illegal things.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
See, because what what what I see what you're doing.
You get in and you're talking with Larry and Gabe,
and this story starts building, and everybody in that gang
starts saying, oh, well, what the hell's going on with
Larry here? And all and all you have to do
is just change another person that's just outside that circle. Now,
you're doing your job as far as I'm concerned, because
maybe it's not about Larry and Gabe but those that
are around them. And that's that's what I'm envisioning, and
(15:50):
that's what I'm picking up on. And right away it
goes to my brother and I. So therefore, look see
how you work through me?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
All right? Thanks man?
Speaker 3 (16:00):
It was it was a weird one to report because
it's it's usually usually I'm trying to find things out, right,
and and this one it was Gabe finding things out
as as I'm finding them out.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
So then you had to pretend to be the friend
or act like the friend then as he found that
stuff out, I mean, because he's got to he's got
to find support from somewhere.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yeah, no, I mean, it's that's not my job. It's
not my job. Uh, but I was there for it.
I mean, it was.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
You know, for years he'd blamed his mother for his
parents splitting up, and he found out there's a lot
more to the story. Uh, that was kind of a shocker.
He found out that his little sister was to it
all sorts of stuff she should have been doing. Yeah,
and it changed. I think it softened Gabe's view of
(17:09):
Larry oddly enough. You know, even as he learns the
extent of Larry's criminality, he's also learning the reasons why.
He's learning the context, and I don't think it makes
Larry a worst person. In some ways, it was like, Okay,
I get it.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Yeah, I mean because the way that the writing, first
of all, is unbelievable, in the way that I felt
like that there was that relationship, because I mean the
way that you're talking about going up to the the
egg yolk yellow home, you know, the the the description
of everything that's taking place. I'm going, Oh, he's part
of this, he's part of the weave. He understands the
atmosphere and basically, as Julia Cameron would say, you have
(17:52):
painted the room quite well, and I'm stepping into your world.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Man, thank you.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
You know, that's that's what that's what we're always hoping
to do and it's, uh, you know, really the I think,
what what really helps to pull you in?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
And thank you for for for the writing.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
But uh, Garrett Teedaman, I think his sound design is
just spectacular. I think he hit the right tone, the
right mood, and I think all that helps to pull
you in. And the uh, you know, the writing, it's it's, oh,
what a pain in the book.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
How about that you gotta stay up until midnight at
night because you know, you got to get that writing down.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Yeah, and then it's not enough to write it, then
you gotta you got to hear yourself say it over
and over because like, oh no, what I wrote was
great and it sounds stupid when I say it now
I got to redo it.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah. But you know what, though, if you go back
and you study the history of podcasting all the way
back to the nineteen eighties, it was the newspaper article
writers and the magazine articles as well as the poets
and the authors that really led the world to podcast
And it was not the comedians. It was not the musicians.
So to hear that you've got this journalistic background, you're
doing exactly what you've been called to do, and now
(19:08):
you're showing up and that's what I love about this.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Well, thanks, I really appreciate that. It's this was was
It sounds strange to say, but it was. It was
a lot of fun to work on. Yeah, it was
interesting as hell, which I think you can hear just
through the interviews, and yeah, we're really pleased with the
way it turned out.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeah, because I can't imagine where your imagination was going
when you would land that sound bite, knowing you've been
there for at least forty five minutes to an hour
to get any type of conversation with anybody, and there
was that sound bite.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Isn't that the best? Feel?
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Oh my god?
Speaker 2 (19:47):
It's like what there? It is? Smarked that one down. Yeah, yeah,
it was. It was good.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
You know, it's had a great team to work with.
Iheart's been fantastic and yeah, we couldn't be happier with it.
So I'm hoping people listen to it, you know and like, review, share, subscribe,
all that good stuff. It's yeah, the reviews and the
likes really help a lot.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Where do people go to find out more about you?
Because my gut is telling me that you are just
getting started with these stories and that you are not
over with this because you did enjoy you said, so, oh.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, boys, that is very sad. One of
these days I'm gonna have a website. But for now,
all the podcasts I've done have been through Campside Media.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah, that's c A M P S, I d E.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Camp Side, So you can find all of them over
there Campside top to bottom of spectacular work. And they've
really been sort of a pioneer, and well not a pioneer,
a connoisseur of these long form narrative podcasts.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Well, I'm gonna give you the quote, and then then
I got to check out here, but the quote that
iHeartRadio gave me back in twenty twelve. I don't know
what you're doing. Just don't stop. That's exactly what they
told me in twenty twelve, and now here you are,
I'm saying the same thing, do not stop. Eric.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Thank you so much, Ben, that really means a lot.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Will you be brilliant today?
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Okay, sir, thank you you too,
I first arrived inside this forest in November of nineteen
ninety two, and right away I had to know what
is the history of this lay of land, what happened
here and how did it happen? What was the foresight
of what was about to take place? The arrival of humans?
Four stories on aro dot net A R r oe
dot net enjoy the exploration. So how do I say this?
(00:23):
I'm just going to say it. Talk to your neighbor
for twenty minutes. I'm go get a cup of tea.
Ooh what does he mean by neighbor?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Are you in this area, Sean, I'm in Durham.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Oh you are my neighbor?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Then, oh I am. Oh, I'm in the cool part
of the state.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I was going to say, you know how that competition
is between Charlotte and the Durham Raleigh area. It's like, okay, yes,
so you guys still exist on that side of the ocean.
Then huh, dude, how did you get involved in this project?
Because I mean, I being a broadcast instructor to sit
down with people who think that they've got that gift
in order to make a podcast happen, and then I
(00:56):
bump into someone like you and I'm going this guy
is a genius the way he could And I mean, seriously,
do do you do you listen to the way that
you share a story. It's almost like you know that
I am right there with you because the way that
you describe the colorizing, the scent of the air, everything,
and it's like, dude, them right here.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
You know my well, thank you for one. My background
is in print journalism. I've been a magazine writer since
the nineties, uh, for a very long time. And you
you learn to to to you know, it's what do
they say? They say show don't tell all the time,
so you sort of get into those habits to get
(01:36):
used to it. But then when I shifted over to
the audio, the first thing I learned is that there's
a big difference between written words and talking words. You know,
you've got to you've got to change your syntax, You've
got to change your rhythm and your pacic well you
know all this stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
You're a professional here.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Unfortunately, I had some really really good teachers. The producers
at camp said, uh, I think as we started doing
these shows, we just we got better and better at it.
My producer on this one lane was Blaine Rose was fantastic.
We had a great story editor and Audrey Quinn and
our sound design that's guaranteed him and he's just top notch.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
But you know, but I think the thing that really
inspires me here and it really is inspiring me, and
that is the way that you have this conversation on
the podcast where you're not sounding like a journalist, you're
not sounding like a radio disc jockey. Because that's a
transition that a lot of radio people have to move through,
is that this ain't radio. You got to have a
real conversation here.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
So yeah, thank you Sheen for that, because that's I
learned that as a print journalist. You know, whenever I
talked to college classes, I always get some variation of
how did you get someone to say this or say that?
And for years I never quite interested the question. But
it finally dawned on me when I spent about two
(03:00):
hours with a very young widow whose husband had been
blown up in the deep water horizon and her lawyer
was very, very hesitant to let me talk to her,
but I finally met her for lunch. We talked for
about two hours, and her lawyer called me immediately. A
little bit steamed, and she said, what did you do.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
To my client?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
He said, you know, I bought her lunch. And he says, well,
she said, you didn't ask her any questions. Oh, and
I thought that was fascinating. It sounds like a conversation
because it is a conversation. That's the way you get
people to talk to you is nobody likes to be grilled,
nobody likes to you.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
So you do believe in that philosophy, then of that
sometimes you don't need to ask a question, just place
a sentence out there or a statement and then sit
back and fill that dead air up with something.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, dead air is a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Well yeah, you go into editing and all of a sudden,
there's no dead airy. What are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
But there you go. You know.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
But what's really interesting about this is that the way
that you share this story with the Ortiz brothers, what
is the relationship because I mean, I mean it's like
did it fall onto your lap? I mean, how did
you read about this story and thought I'm going to
take the step I'm going to find out more because
I've been on chat, GPT or Google all day. I
need to have real voices and not a computer screen.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
So this is this this, uh, this came my way
the way all the best stories do. A friend of
a friend of a friend. There was I knew someone
who knew someone who knew Gabe, and he just happened
to hear the story.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
It was. There was not a lot of press coverage
when it happened. There was some some local news that
was that was.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
It, and then it was sort of you know that
that little game of telephone there. So of course the
message gets a little bit garbleed by the time it
gets to me. And it was first told to me
as this cop having to investigate the death of his brother,
the murder of his brother, which struck me as odd, yeah,
(05:03):
wildly unethical and have you full of all sorts of
jurisdictional problems. But I called up Gabe and uh, we
talked for a long time. We talked for probably a
couple of hours, and he explained the whole thing and
and what he didn't know then. There was a lot
(05:23):
of things about his brother Larry that Gabe didn't know then,
and he wouldn't find out until we actually did the
interviews for the podcast.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
But he told me enough of his story.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
That planeted that that that seed that Okay, he wasn't
investigating his brother's murder, but he was investigating his brother's
life because there's a whole bunch of his life that
Gabe doesn't know. And I'm getting a feeling that Gabe
didn't want to know, which is how it worked out.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah, because I mean I look at Gabe's journey as
being somebody that that that looks at where we are,
what what happened to Larry, and he's going, well, you know,
I'm not gonna go searching for the solution now until
I understand the actual footprint here and what was going
on here before the sand was indented. And that's what
I love about Gabe is the fact that he's going, Okay,
I'm gonna go where it was dirty, and then we're
(06:12):
gonna go from there, because there's obviously something here that
separated us.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and it was it may have just
been the simplest of things, you know, it's you look
back at your own life and you can see all
these spots where you might have taken a detour here,
a detour there. And there's a moment where Gabe's father
(06:36):
pushes Gabe onto one of those detours send him on
an off ramp out of Brazoria County. And by the
time Larry, four years younger, is coming into his troubled
teenage years, their father isn't there anymore. I mean he's there,
but he's going through his own struggles. And you know,
Larry doesn't get quite the same nudge. Well, it didn't
(06:59):
get any of the nuts that Gabe got. So it's
really you know, Gabe had to wonder what would have
happened if he'd stayed, if he remained in Presoria County.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Yeah, he probably he thinks he would have ended up
just like Larry, Are.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
You kidding me? See, I would have gone, oh my god,
I was leaning more in the opposite direction that that
Larry would have. Had, you know, a little bit firmer territory.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
There, he might have.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
But Gabe was, there's not a lot to do in
Brazoria County. There's just not well, at least in the
southern end of it. Houston is sort of bleeding into
the northern end. Yeah, and Gabe was, he was running
with a rough crowd too, and and you know, sure
(07:48):
he is going to school, but he's getting kicked out
of school. Yeah, he wonders what would have happened to him.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
See, do you ever look at, you know, a story
like this and then come back and look at where
you are in Durham in the way that you know,
how Carolina is. There's a lot of towns out there
that are basically just small town family communities, and it's like,
when there's nothing to do, where are they going to
cause and find the trouble?
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah, yeah, of course it's you know, Unfortunately, most people,
even Larry, I tell my kids this all the time,
Almost everyone is fundamentally decent. They will help you if
they can. Nobody's really you know, for for all the
vitriol and and all the online back and forth and
(08:33):
all the terrible things people say in public, most people
are pretty decent. And even in those small towns, they're
pretty decent. And what Larry was doing it was illegal,
But I just I don't see Larry as a bad guy.
He was doing the best he could with what he had.
(08:55):
And this idea that that, I mean, nobody forces you
to buy drug This is a demand economy. So if
people didn't want to buy his drugs, Larry wouldn't have
been selling him.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
He'd have found some other way to make a buck.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Please do not move. There's more with Sean Flynn coming
up next, the name of his podcast, Brothers or Tease.
We are back with Sean Flynn. Do you think that that,
you know, working with that gang and stuff like that,
do you think that became his his truer path? And
was he the decision maker in that or was or
was he a follower that became somebody in it? Uh?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I leaned towards the former that he was a decision maker.
It's sort of.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Well, it's it's a it's a combination. I mean, so
you know, when he's a little kid, he starts his
own little pretend gang. But then when he gets he
starts running with the crips. Yeah, he gets in the beginning,
he's a follower. But Larry's a big personality. Larry has got,
you know, that sort of intangible leadershi ship quality. He's smart.
(10:03):
He works incredibly hard. That's one thing everyone said about
Larry's He would always do an honest day's work for
an honest day's pay, even if what he was doing
was completely illegal. He worked, He hustled, people respected him,
and you know, some people feared him.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Was it an act of survival or was it one
of those situations where there's multiple personalities inside our friend Larry,
because you know, I mean, if if he wasn't in prison,
or if he wasn't in trouble, maybe he'd be a
radio disc jockey.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah, I think it was both.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
All of you guys are one step out of prison,
Yes we are.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
It was you know, it's almost.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Like survival might be just a touch too strong, but
it was definitely Larry doing what he had to do
to provide for his family, to provide for his sister
and his nieces and nephews, to provide for his own
kids and his own wife.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Of course, the irony here is if he'd just gone
and gotten a legit job, he wouldn't be going off
to prison, which obviously does nothing for your kids. It
just you know, if you're not there to provide for him,
you're not there. But Larry was, Yeah, you do what
(11:36):
you gotta do. That's that's Larry was making money the
best way he knew. And then plus, once you get
into that position, you're sort of stuck with it.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah. See, and I can so relate with this because
you know, coming from Montana, and I know that my
brother and I are two completely opposite people. He has
seen the inside of a cell I have not. I
don't want to do we ever get together? Hell no,
because I don't want to be poisoned by that, because
I mean, I think I could be swayed, just just
like Gabe could have easily been swayed.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Yeah that's interesting. Huh. So you don't have any contact
with him?
Speaker 1 (12:12):
No, no, how long as far back as I can remember, No, no, no,
I just I just I just That's why I moved
to Carolina. I'm two thousand, five hundred miles for a
reason that that's a good wall to be behind.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yeah, I get it. I was.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I was impressed with Gabe's ability to put up to
put on those blinkers. Okay, because it's I mean, everybody knew,
and I'm sure Gabe and his gut's new.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I mean, come on, it's his job to know.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
No, God, yes, but beause because you really want to
know if that were the stock market, that would be
inside trading, would it not? I mean, because see, I
mean that means because he's got the inside, he knows
how to get the information in order to either find
a solution or to help open a door.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Absolutely, you know, he was in a position once to
do his brother an enormous favor that we'll just wait
for that to come out in the show. But for
the most part, he really tried to keep those to
keep that distance to the extent that when Larry, near
(13:23):
the end of his life, just sort of out of
the blue, starts to confess things to him, he's legitimately
shocked and wondering, you know, having some self doubt there
is like how could I not know these things?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Yeah, God, I see situations like that, and you know,
and I think maybe because we're here in the South,
we can probably get away with talking like this. But
you know how those preachers are here in the South,
when you start talking about your past, you know, that's
God working that miracle. He's trying to clear that head.
And now I'm sitting here thinking what was Larry up to?
Was he trying to clear his heart?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (14:02):
I think I go back and forth on that because
there's a lot of talk gave Gabe and Larry's father
used to talk about generational curses, you know, God punishing
your children your grandchildren, your great grandchildren, for your sins,
(14:24):
And there was really some truth to that. The reason,
the reason Larry dies is actually kind of tragic. I mean,
not that any death wouldn't be tragic, but the reason
he dies, I don't know. Am I supposed to give
the ending away here?
Speaker 1 (14:42):
No? But no, let's let's do the modern day but
old fashioned cliffhanger in the way that you're going to
have to listen to this. But the thing is, though,
is that I think that people are going to see
and feel a compassion for Larry, that they're going to go,
Am I supposed to be having these feelings. I mean,
that's what you give to us in this Am I
supposed to be feeling like this? Oh my god? What
is the situation?
Speaker 3 (15:03):
You know?
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Thank you?
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Because there were some people who didn't want to talk
to us because not a lot, but a few people
because they were convinced this was just going to be
Larry's a bad guy and Gabe's a good guy.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
Yeah. I didn't see it that way.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
I Yeah, life is complicated, you know, And I don't
think Larry was a bad guy.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I think you just did a lot of illegal things.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
See, because what what what I see what you're doing.
You get in and you're talking with Larry and Gabe,
and this story starts building, and everybody in that gang
starts saying, oh, well, what the hell's going on with
Larry here? And all and all you have to do
is just change another person that's just outside that circle. Now,
you're doing your job as far as I'm concerned, because
maybe it's not about Larry and Gabe but those that
are around them. And that's that's what I'm envisioning, and
(15:50):
that's what I'm picking up on. And right away it
goes to my brother and I. So therefore, look see
how you work through me?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
All right? Thanks man?
Speaker 3 (16:00):
It was it was a weird one to report because
it's it's usually usually I'm trying to find things out, right,
and and this one it was Gabe finding things out
as as I'm finding them out.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
So then you had to pretend to be the friend
or act like the friend then as he found that
stuff out, I mean, because he's got to he's got
to find support from somewhere.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yeah, no, I mean, it's that's not my job. It's
not my job. Uh, but I was there for it.
I mean, it was.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
You know, for years he'd blamed his mother for his
parents splitting up, and he found out there's a lot
more to the story. Uh, that was kind of a shocker.
He found out that his little sister was to it
all sorts of stuff she should have been doing. Yeah,
and it changed. I think it softened Gabe's view of
(17:09):
Larry oddly enough. You know, even as he learns the
extent of Larry's criminality, he's also learning the reasons why.
He's learning the context, and I don't think it makes
Larry a worst person. In some ways, it was like, Okay,
I get it.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Yeah, I mean because the way that the writing, first
of all, is unbelievable, in the way that I felt
like that there was that relationship, because I mean the
way that you're talking about going up to the the
egg yolk yellow home, you know, the the the description
of everything that's taking place. I'm going, Oh, he's part
of this, he's part of the weave. He understands the
atmosphere and basically, as Julia Cameron would say, you have
(17:52):
painted the room quite well, and I'm stepping into your world.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Man, thank you.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
You know, that's that's what that's what we're always hoping
to do and it's, uh, you know, really the I think,
what what really helps to pull you in?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
And thank you for for for the writing.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
But uh, Garrett Teedaman, I think his sound design is
just spectacular. I think he hit the right tone, the
right mood, and I think all that helps to pull
you in. And the uh, you know, the writing, it's it's, oh,
what a pain in the book.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
How about that you gotta stay up until midnight at
night because you know, you got to get that writing down.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Yeah, and then it's not enough to write it, then
you gotta you got to hear yourself say it over
and over because like, oh no, what I wrote was
great and it sounds stupid when I say it now
I got to redo it.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Yeah. But you know what, though, if you go back
and you study the history of podcasting all the way
back to the nineteen eighties, it was the newspaper article
writers and the magazine articles as well as the poets
and the authors that really led the world to podcast
And it was not the comedians. It was not the musicians.
So to hear that you've got this journalistic background, you're
doing exactly what you've been called to do, and now
(19:08):
you're showing up and that's what I love about this.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Well, thanks, I really appreciate that. It's this was was
It sounds strange to say, but it was. It was
a lot of fun to work on. Yeah, it was
interesting as hell, which I think you can hear just
through the interviews, and yeah, we're really pleased with the
way it turned out.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeah, because I can't imagine where your imagination was going
when you would land that sound bite, knowing you've been
there for at least forty five minutes to an hour
to get any type of conversation with anybody, and there
was that sound bite.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Isn't that the best? Feel?
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Oh my god?
Speaker 2 (19:47):
It's like what there? It is? Smarked that one down. Yeah, yeah,
it was. It was good.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
You know, it's had a great team to work with.
Iheart's been fantastic and yeah, we couldn't be happier with it.
So I'm hoping people listen to it, you know and like, review, share, subscribe,
all that good stuff. It's yeah, the reviews and the
likes really help a lot.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Where do people go to find out more about you?
Because my gut is telling me that you are just
getting started with these stories and that you are not
over with this because you did enjoy you said, so, oh.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, boys, that is very sad. One of
these days I'm gonna have a website. But for now,
all the podcasts I've done have been through Campside Media.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah, that's c A M P S, I d E.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Camp Side, So you can find all of them over
there Campside top to bottom of spectacular work. And they've
really been sort of a pioneer, and well not a pioneer,
a connoisseur of these long form narrative podcasts.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Well, I'm gonna give you the quote, and then then
I got to check out here, but the quote that
iHeartRadio gave me back in twenty twelve. I don't know
what you're doing. Just don't stop. That's exactly what they
told me in twenty twelve, and now here you are,
I'm saying the same thing, do not stop. Eric.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Thank you so much, Ben, that really means a lot.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Will you be brilliant today?
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Okay, sir, thank you you too,
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