March 23, 2025 • 18 mins
The Greatest True Crime Stories Ever Told, now in its second season, is an anthology of the most layered and engrossing true crime stories of female killers, cops, scientists, lawyers, scammers, activists, and more. Hosted by true crime writer Mary Kay McBrayer, this podcast series tells stories at the intersection of society, justice, and the human psyche, siphoning wisdom and understanding from these truly great stories. Episodes available here: Https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-the-greatest-true-crime-s-128412643/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning Mary.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Kay.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Good morning, Aaron. I'm doing so well. Thank you for
having me. How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Fantastic? Very excited to share a conversation with you, because
I am convinced that every generation loves true crime, and
you are taking every generation on a journey right now.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Thank you. Wow. Okay, let's go. Let's go on our journey.
Let's go on our vacation through true crime Land. Let's
do it.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I would love to see how you show prep for
this stuff, because I really am a show prep w horror.
I mean, I dig in and I don't want to
come out until I know inside my soul that I've
got everything I need. How do you prep?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
That is such a good question, And this is a
question I like to ask other people too, because you
never know when you can pick up a few tips
and trips along the way. So I would say the
first thing that we do is like select the actual
stories that we want to do, although sometimes you know,
you read a little bit into it and be like, well,
this isn't exactly a good fit. So we like to
(00:57):
have like a long list and then we look into
them a little bit. But one of the things that
we do, and one of the things that I like
to do. There are kind of two tacks that we
approach because we're trying to do the greatest true crime
stories ever told, and that's you know, that's hard to
fill sometimes because you don't want to just throw one
in there because you haven't done it before, you know.
(01:17):
So the first thing that we like to do is
examine stories that we already know and see if there's
a new angle to the stories that we're very familiar with.
In particular because in the greatest true crime Stories ever told,
we like to highlight the stories of women that are
perhaps not as well tread well tread as some of
(01:39):
the main narratives are. So for example, one of the
stories that we are we're tackling from a new perspective
is the story of Anne Rule, and most of us
know her from writing The Stranger Beside Me, which is
a story about the I don't want to say a
story about it's a narrative about the Ted Bundy case,
(02:04):
which we're all you know, like that's like a heavy
hit or like if you know, if you are only
dabbling in learning about true crime, Ted Bundy is one
of the ones you learn first, you know, because it
was he was prolific and so good at evading capture.
But this story, right is about the author of that
book and Rule, who is like our true crime queen goddess,
(02:27):
gold standard of writing. And I would like to tell
her story too, because it's about her as a person,
not just her relationship with Ted Bundy. And I think
that that's important to know because I make the joke
that like people who are just now realizing true crime
is interesting, like they'll they'll tell you like it's a
surprise that Ted Bundy was hot, Right, It's like, well, no,
(02:50):
that's how he got you, Like that's he was charming
and handsome, and he wasn't creepy at all, Like that
was his whole thing. And I think that you know,
Anne Rule, who was significantly not significantly, like maybe a
half a generation older than he was, worked with him,
like he was her colleague at a suicide hotline, and
(03:11):
she knew him like as a as a colleague, right,
like they were friends, but I don't think there was
anything like friends. They weren't like close friends, if that
makes sense, Like they were close for being work time associates.
But she her she she has a background right of
of police procedures, criminal, like her whole family was police
(03:33):
kind of and she wanted to be a policeman but
couldn't because she was a woman. And then she went
to she pivoted to journalism, which was adjacent, and she
was already very familiar with the world, with that world,
excuse me, and she was hearing like the releases of
the serial killer, like his profile, like what he looked like,
down to like the car he drove, and she still
(03:55):
was like, but I don't think that's Ted, Like I
just don't think it could be him, like the Ted
that I know. And I think that's fascinating because that's
how tricky he was, you know, and we don't hear
that that side of that story where he was like
not a creep, like we hear about, oh, you wanted
to help somebody get their stuff in their van, like
of course, I'm not going to go out to your
car with you, but like you might have, because that's
(04:18):
how convincing, like and unassuming he was. So we like
to approach it from that angle first, like stories, you know,
from a new angle, and then also stories that you've
never ever heard of before. And there's like why have
it you heard of it? You know? Like that that's
the question is like, how do I not know this
story already?
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (04:36):
So I think those are how we that's how we
start the process of selecting the stories. Is like from
those two angles.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
The story with Anne Rule. I'll tell you what I was.
I was a little bit shocked when I learned that
Ted Bundy actually used religious conversation as part of his gig.
And I was like, going, I have never heard that before,
but I can understand how that would serve as a
worm on the hook.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, because that's like, that's how you disarmed people, right,
is by talking about the most possible, the goodest thing
you could talk about, because it's like, oh, we're talking
about that, Like this guy's not going to hurt me.
He started out the gate with some you know, someone
being righteous. So yeah, you.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Also bring up Pamela Smart. I haven't heard that name
in a long time, but man, if you didn't, just
you know, ignite something inside my memory banks.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Oh yeah, we have a lot of a lot of
stories that are like come kind of circling back like
one of the ones that we just did, so it's
like fresh in my mind. Is Andrea Yates's story, which
even at the time was very divisive about like how
she should be treated because she was a criminal, But
she also turned herself in immediately and she thought she
was doing the right thing. So yeah, there's a lot
(05:50):
of nuance to unpack about some familiar stories in here too.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
What kind of research went into the Sarah Jane Moore story,
Because I mean, you know, for the longest time, especially
during the nineteen seventies, it was a moment that I
remember because it was just plastered all over television. But
you really dig into this and you kind of give
me an answer to all the questions I've had over
the years because she seemed to be a normal person,
but man, she wanted Gerald Ford.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, so she did seem to be a normal person.
But this is one of the stories where if I
heard it as fiction, I would be like, Okay, y'all
are reaching, Like this is too much, Like there's no
way this happened, And it did happen, but what we
The way I like to start right is by finding
the person who has already done the most research possible,
and for that story, it was Jerry Spieler, who was
(06:35):
a journalist who. I think I might be misremembering this,
but I'm pretty sure. Sarah Jane Moore called her to
be like, come tell my story, and she's like, I
don't no, like I think so. So that's where I started,
right is reading reading her book that she wrote with
all of the facts, and then when we can, we
really like to get the author of like the tone right,
(06:59):
like the biggest author about that story in with us
to talk so we can ask like follow up questions
about what do you think about it that you couldn't
necessarily say as a journalist because it's your opinion, right like.
So those are some of my favorites. And Jerry Spieler,
while she was a great interview because she was she
would tell us like stories like I don't want to
say they were off the record. It was, you know,
(07:21):
fine to tell them to me, but it wasn't okay
to publish them as fact about that story. So and
we include those in the podcast usually as like a
at the end, we'll have like a fifteen minute interview
with the expert. So those are really fun to hear
because I get to ask like, well do you think
he did it? You know, and it's always like well,
(07:43):
of course he did it, we just couldn't put it
down or whatever. So that's fun. And then also, and
this is one of the things I learned from teaching
English for a long time, is when you have a
really great source and they're saying like everything you want
to include in your argument when I was teaching, but
now it's just like they have like the whole narrative
(08:05):
like really lined up for you. Go look at their bibliography, like,
go look at their sources. So network it that way, right,
and a lot of the time you'll be able to
find other sources from them too, And we do try
to be as exhaustive as we can. But you know
that way lies danger if you go too deep in it,
(08:27):
like you get off track from the main narrative. And
the way that I usually determine like okay, I'm ready
to write about this is when my sources start repeating themselves,
so like I'm learning the same information consistently. Yeah, I
might get some more out of this, but I feel
like I have a pretty good handle on the facts.
And then I'm sure you know this as well, but
(08:48):
like as you're writing it, you're still constantly looking stuff
up to make sure you get right, like, it never
really stops until you recorded it, and even then I'll
listen back and be like, oh, no, I missed that apart.
So it's never truly finished because that's how life is.
You know, There's always way more than you can include
(09:09):
in any length of work because life extends much further
than just the narrative. So yeah, it's a process for sure, which,
like I said, we try to do as much as
we can, but of course we miss stuff. And I
love it when people like DM me like, oh did
you know this about it? And sometimes it's like no,
I didn't know that, thank you so much for sharing
(09:31):
it with me. So I love when people get in
touch through Instagram villain, I like this, but you miss something.
I love that, like I love being correct kind.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Of just having those conversations. I love getting into it
because I believe share your story or someone will write
it for you. But when you talk about when they
start repeating. This is what I have found in my
multiple years of having conversations, it's usually every fourteen minutes
you will hear something that was once said, not even
twelve or thirteen minutes ago. And but I love that
because it's like You've gone so deep inside the conversation
(10:03):
that they feel like that they're trying to resurface again.
I'm going now, we're going back in. We're going back in.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
It's true I didn't know the fourteen minutes, but that
makes sense.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, and that's what's fun about it. And first of all,
I want to compliment you on having the guests that
you have that come on because I'm also a believer
in pitch, volume and tone, and when they bring their
voice to it, that just, oh my god, it just
gives it a solid foundation.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Thank you. I agree, because again, as much as I
like to think I'm an expert about it, I didn't
write the book on most of these things. And anytime
we can get the person who really spit, you know,
years of their life researching it is like they're going
to know more than me just at the drop of
the hat, at the very first question, I'm going to
learn something new because you can include it all. So yeah,
(10:51):
I thank you. We really like it when we can
interview the authors.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Please do not move. There's more Mary Kay right around
the corner. Hey, thanks for coming back to my conversation
with podcaster Mary Kay McBrayer. When I first read about
the hostages of Pablo Escobar right away. I mean, for
some reason I always think of the hippopotamusis that he
took there and that is basically destroying the country. But
then that is not about the hippos. This is about
(11:16):
he was kidnapping journalists.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah he was, and I like, we know him of
course as a drug lord and I think a narcissist
as well, But that part of the story I had
never heard of or even like even thought that I
didn't know all of the story, you know, because we
see that one so much. And we were like on
(11:40):
a trip. We were in Colombia and I love Garbrielle,
Garcia Marcus, and I saw a book whose title I
had never seen before, and that's how I learned that
the master of magical realism got his start in journalism,
like from just happening to be in a place. So
I picked up that book and I was like, oh, yeah,
I remember this b plot from the Narcos episode, but
(12:02):
they like had a composite character and didn't really go
into the journalists or like that they were a huge deal.
Like it at the time, it was like you got
to get these hostages out out of there by any
means necessary. This is what the public and their families
were thinking. And the government was like, yeah, that's what
he wants us to do. Like we're damning a whole
generation if we do that. We have to be very
(12:23):
careful about what we're doing. Meanwhile, these women are just
like holding it down in like a typical like kidnapping scenario,
like what you think of like a dirty mattress on
the floor, and like, yeah, it was that was that
was That was tricky because there was also like a
language barrier there and if it wasn't in the book,
it was really hard to access. So for me because
(12:45):
I don't speak fluent Spanish and I definitely don't read
fluent Spanish about crime, like at the level where I
could add anything if that makes sense, like I can
you know, maybe get to the bathroom if you tell
me the instructions. But but yeah, that was a that
was a great I was really happy to find that
story because again it's like a new angle on a
(13:07):
story we're really familiar with.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Well, I mean, you make it so real because these kidnappers,
they weren't messing around. They were hardcore, and if you
were the driver of a car. Boom, boom, you're gone.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Yeah, they merciless. Yeah, and that story too. I mean
even the guards. To me, I was like, oh wow,
like you are they were children. They were like fifteen
seventeen years old, living in poverty, thinking like okay, for
a few years, I can make bank and set my
family up, and I know I'm going to die young,
Like I know that that is the case. We're just
(13:39):
going to live it up for the little while that
I have. Like that was a real thing that the
journalists came back and talked about, was like they were
ferocious children who had like they were very fatalistic. And
that is such a bummer story, especially because like these
these are grown women with careers and families held captive
(14:00):
children like kids their children's age. So yeah, and they
were a merciless because that's all they knew, and they
knew that they if they weren't doing exactly what they
were told, they were totally expendable, like by their own employer.
And that that's just this so bad. It's so bad.
(14:20):
I don't know how else to say it.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Well, you're kind of proving in the in these podcasts
is that you can be anybody, any career, any city,
and a crime can happen. And because a lot of
these people here, you would never know that they were.
That's the one that broke the gund First, I'll give
you a good example, Linda Taylor. Linda Taylor. Who would
have ever thought about Linda Taylor and and and being
the notorious welfare queen?
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Right. I loved that story and we got to have
the author of that book on as well. He has
a like a four part podcast about it too that
I think goes even in more depth because it released
after the book, so it's like new information included, which
is really cool. But yeah, I you know, I hear
about like a welfare queen and I'm like, okay, does
that exist? Is that like a political you know, practic
(15:08):
And to a degree yes to both. So yeah, she
like really was a chameleon. Like it was a really
cool story to tell. And it was also like she
was so slippery, right because she was always in disguise,
that she was always putting on a persona. So if
he hadn't done all of the legwork for me, basically
not for me, but like, I would never have been
(15:29):
able to pin that story down without Josh Lavine, like
his book is what really held the narrative together because
she had so many aliases and this is before the internet,
so she was you know, her mugshots would look completely different.
And yeah, it's it's interesting. It's very interesting the way
that they strung all of that together. Finally, like way
(15:51):
later in her life.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
How do you go to with Starbucks and not look
at somebody and think there's a story here? Oh, I
know there's a story.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Oh. I do think that. I think that about everyone
is like they have a story that they're just waiting
for the right person to ask about so they can
tell it. Everyone has one and if you don't have
one yet, you're gonna have one. You're gonna get one.
But I do think that, and I think it's just
like I don't want to say like picking and choosing
(16:21):
about who to ask, but like you got to get there,
You got to get you got to get to that
point in the conversation where it comes up kind of naturally.
You know, I don't want to go up to someone
and be like, tell me about your worst childhood experience,
you know, like I don't want to start a conversation
like that. But everybody has a story.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Don't you think that begins with the art of It's
not that they're happy to see you. You're making it
look like you're happy to see them, and that warms
up their heart. Therefore, it's like, there's my door I
can walk in.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
I think so. Yeah. I think people also, just as
a human quality, like to talk about themselves. Be does
not that many people ask?
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, but see, but I love that about a podcasting
in the way that they, for instance, liked with your podcast.
It is a conversation starter. It is a great place
to you know, Hey, did you hear that latest episode? Yeah,
and you just start talking. And that, to me is
why podcasting is so big, because we're listening to it
and then we go out and have conversations.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
I love that, and I I'm so glad you said
that because I know I will be reading about these
stories and and just like put the put the story down,
and I'm like, I gotta you're not gonna believe this.
I'll bust my husband's office and be like, oh, you're
on a call, it doesn't matter, hang up. I have
to tell you about this criminal Crematorium family Enterprise right now. Like, yeah,
(17:39):
I have to tell you about it right now. You're
not gonna believe it. I got like when we were
researching Cassy Chadwick. I remember going to my exercise like
my gym and being like, I have to tell you
about how this woman in the Gilded Age pad nick
and then crawled out of the window to escape because
she was posing as Andrew Carnegie's heiress, like his illegitimate child.
(18:04):
I have to tell you about it, Like I I'm
glad it's not just me that like seizes on this
and be like, oh, I have to tell this story now,
like it's my story. You know it's not, but for
some reason I feel entitled to tell it and then
hope that people talk to me about it.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Well, you have got to come back to this show
anytime in the future. I love where your heart is.
I love your storytelling. I love everything about you you
connecting with people.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Thank you so much, Aero. That's such a nice thing
to say. I love being on. Thank you so much
for having me.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Will you be brilliant today? Okay, you too.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Thank you so much.
Good morning Mary.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Kay.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Good morning, Aaron. I'm doing so well. Thank you for
having me. How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Fantastic? Very excited to share a conversation with you, because
I am convinced that every generation loves true crime, and
you are taking every generation on a journey right now.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Thank you. Wow. Okay, let's go. Let's go on our journey.
Let's go on our vacation through true crime Land. Let's
do it.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I would love to see how you show prep for
this stuff, because I really am a show prep w horror.
I mean, I dig in and I don't want to
come out until I know inside my soul that I've
got everything I need. How do you prep?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
That is such a good question, And this is a
question I like to ask other people too, because you
never know when you can pick up a few tips
and trips along the way. So I would say the
first thing that we do is like select the actual
stories that we want to do, although sometimes you know,
you read a little bit into it and be like, well,
this isn't exactly a good fit. So we like to
(00:57):
have like a long list and then we look into
them a little bit. But one of the things that
we do, and one of the things that I like
to do. There are kind of two tacks that we
approach because we're trying to do the greatest true crime
stories ever told, and that's you know, that's hard to
fill sometimes because you don't want to just throw one
in there because you haven't done it before, you know.
(01:17):
So the first thing that we like to do is
examine stories that we already know and see if there's
a new angle to the stories that we're very familiar with.
In particular because in the greatest true crime Stories ever told,
we like to highlight the stories of women that are
perhaps not as well tread well tread as some of
(01:39):
the main narratives are. So for example, one of the
stories that we are we're tackling from a new perspective
is the story of Anne Rule, and most of us
know her from writing The Stranger Beside Me, which is
a story about the I don't want to say a
story about it's a narrative about the Ted Bundy case,
(02:04):
which we're all you know, like that's like a heavy
hit or like if you know, if you are only
dabbling in learning about true crime, Ted Bundy is one
of the ones you learn first, you know, because it
was he was prolific and so good at evading capture.
But this story, right is about the author of that
book and Rule, who is like our true crime queen goddess,
(02:27):
gold standard of writing. And I would like to tell
her story too, because it's about her as a person,
not just her relationship with Ted Bundy. And I think
that that's important to know because I make the joke
that like people who are just now realizing true crime
is interesting, like they'll they'll tell you like it's a
surprise that Ted Bundy was hot, Right, It's like, well, no,
(02:50):
that's how he got you, Like that's he was charming
and handsome, and he wasn't creepy at all, Like that
was his whole thing. And I think that you know,
Anne Rule, who was significantly not significantly, like maybe a
half a generation older than he was, worked with him,
like he was her colleague at a suicide hotline, and
(03:11):
she knew him like as a as a colleague, right,
like they were friends, but I don't think there was
anything like friends. They weren't like close friends, if that
makes sense, Like they were close for being work time associates.
But she her she she has a background right of
of police procedures, criminal, like her whole family was police
(03:33):
kind of and she wanted to be a policeman but
couldn't because she was a woman. And then she went
to she pivoted to journalism, which was adjacent, and she
was already very familiar with the world, with that world,
excuse me, and she was hearing like the releases of
the serial killer, like his profile, like what he looked like,
down to like the car he drove, and she still
(03:55):
was like, but I don't think that's Ted, Like I
just don't think it could be him, like the Ted
that I know. And I think that's fascinating because that's
how tricky he was, you know, and we don't hear
that that side of that story where he was like
not a creep, like we hear about, oh, you wanted
to help somebody get their stuff in their van, like
of course, I'm not going to go out to your
car with you, but like you might have, because that's
(04:18):
how convincing, like and unassuming he was. So we like
to approach it from that angle first, like stories, you know,
from a new angle, and then also stories that you've
never ever heard of before. And there's like why have
it you heard of it? You know? Like that that's
the question is like, how do I not know this
story already?
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (04:36):
So I think those are how we that's how we
start the process of selecting the stories. Is like from
those two angles.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
The story with Anne Rule. I'll tell you what I was.
I was a little bit shocked when I learned that
Ted Bundy actually used religious conversation as part of his gig.
And I was like, going, I have never heard that before,
but I can understand how that would serve as a
worm on the hook.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, because that's like, that's how you disarmed people, right,
is by talking about the most possible, the goodest thing
you could talk about, because it's like, oh, we're talking
about that, Like this guy's not going to hurt me.
He started out the gate with some you know, someone
being righteous. So yeah, you.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Also bring up Pamela Smart. I haven't heard that name
in a long time, but man, if you didn't, just
you know, ignite something inside my memory banks.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Oh yeah, we have a lot of a lot of
stories that are like come kind of circling back like
one of the ones that we just did, so it's
like fresh in my mind. Is Andrea Yates's story, which
even at the time was very divisive about like how
she should be treated because she was a criminal, But
she also turned herself in immediately and she thought she
was doing the right thing. So yeah, there's a lot
(05:50):
of nuance to unpack about some familiar stories in here too.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
What kind of research went into the Sarah Jane Moore story,
Because I mean, you know, for the longest time, especially
during the nineteen seventies, it was a moment that I
remember because it was just plastered all over television. But
you really dig into this and you kind of give
me an answer to all the questions I've had over
the years because she seemed to be a normal person,
but man, she wanted Gerald Ford.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, so she did seem to be a normal person.
But this is one of the stories where if I
heard it as fiction, I would be like, Okay, y'all
are reaching, Like this is too much, Like there's no
way this happened, And it did happen, but what we
The way I like to start right is by finding
the person who has already done the most research possible,
and for that story, it was Jerry Spieler, who was
(06:35):
a journalist who. I think I might be misremembering this,
but I'm pretty sure. Sarah Jane Moore called her to
be like, come tell my story, and she's like, I
don't no, like I think so. So that's where I started,
right is reading reading her book that she wrote with
all of the facts, and then when we can, we
really like to get the author of like the tone right,
(06:59):
like the biggest author about that story in with us
to talk so we can ask like follow up questions
about what do you think about it that you couldn't
necessarily say as a journalist because it's your opinion, right like.
So those are some of my favorites. And Jerry Spieler,
while she was a great interview because she was she
would tell us like stories like I don't want to
say they were off the record. It was, you know,
(07:21):
fine to tell them to me, but it wasn't okay
to publish them as fact about that story. So and
we include those in the podcast usually as like a
at the end, we'll have like a fifteen minute interview
with the expert. So those are really fun to hear
because I get to ask like, well do you think
he did it? You know, and it's always like well,
(07:43):
of course he did it, we just couldn't put it
down or whatever. So that's fun. And then also, and
this is one of the things I learned from teaching
English for a long time, is when you have a
really great source and they're saying like everything you want
to include in your argument when I was teaching, but
now it's just like they have like the whole narrative
(08:05):
like really lined up for you. Go look at their bibliography, like,
go look at their sources. So network it that way, right,
and a lot of the time you'll be able to
find other sources from them too, And we do try
to be as exhaustive as we can. But you know
that way lies danger if you go too deep in it,
(08:27):
like you get off track from the main narrative. And
the way that I usually determine like okay, I'm ready
to write about this is when my sources start repeating themselves,
so like I'm learning the same information consistently. Yeah, I
might get some more out of this, but I feel
like I have a pretty good handle on the facts.
And then I'm sure you know this as well, but
(08:48):
like as you're writing it, you're still constantly looking stuff
up to make sure you get right, like, it never
really stops until you recorded it, and even then I'll
listen back and be like, oh, no, I missed that apart.
So it's never truly finished because that's how life is.
You know, There's always way more than you can include
(09:09):
in any length of work because life extends much further
than just the narrative. So yeah, it's a process for sure, which,
like I said, we try to do as much as
we can, but of course we miss stuff. And I
love it when people like DM me like, oh did
you know this about it? And sometimes it's like no,
I didn't know that, thank you so much for sharing
(09:31):
it with me. So I love when people get in
touch through Instagram villain, I like this, but you miss something.
I love that, like I love being correct kind.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Of just having those conversations. I love getting into it
because I believe share your story or someone will write
it for you. But when you talk about when they
start repeating. This is what I have found in my
multiple years of having conversations, it's usually every fourteen minutes
you will hear something that was once said, not even
twelve or thirteen minutes ago. And but I love that
because it's like You've gone so deep inside the conversation
(10:03):
that they feel like that they're trying to resurface again.
I'm going now, we're going back in. We're going back in.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
It's true I didn't know the fourteen minutes, but that
makes sense.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, and that's what's fun about it. And first of all,
I want to compliment you on having the guests that
you have that come on because I'm also a believer
in pitch, volume and tone, and when they bring their
voice to it, that just, oh my god, it just
gives it a solid foundation.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Thank you. I agree, because again, as much as I
like to think I'm an expert about it, I didn't
write the book on most of these things. And anytime
we can get the person who really spit, you know,
years of their life researching it is like they're going
to know more than me just at the drop of
the hat, at the very first question, I'm going to
learn something new because you can include it all. So yeah,
(10:51):
I thank you. We really like it when we can
interview the authors.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Please do not move. There's more Mary Kay right around
the corner. Hey, thanks for coming back to my conversation
with podcaster Mary Kay McBrayer. When I first read about
the hostages of Pablo Escobar right away. I mean, for
some reason I always think of the hippopotamusis that he
took there and that is basically destroying the country. But
then that is not about the hippos. This is about
(11:16):
he was kidnapping journalists.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah he was, and I like, we know him of
course as a drug lord and I think a narcissist
as well, But that part of the story I had
never heard of or even like even thought that I
didn't know all of the story, you know, because we
see that one so much. And we were like on
(11:40):
a trip. We were in Colombia and I love Garbrielle,
Garcia Marcus, and I saw a book whose title I
had never seen before, and that's how I learned that
the master of magical realism got his start in journalism,
like from just happening to be in a place. So
I picked up that book and I was like, oh, yeah,
I remember this b plot from the Narcos episode, but
(12:02):
they like had a composite character and didn't really go
into the journalists or like that they were a huge deal.
Like it at the time, it was like you got
to get these hostages out out of there by any
means necessary. This is what the public and their families
were thinking. And the government was like, yeah, that's what
he wants us to do. Like we're damning a whole
generation if we do that. We have to be very
(12:23):
careful about what we're doing. Meanwhile, these women are just
like holding it down in like a typical like kidnapping scenario,
like what you think of like a dirty mattress on
the floor, and like, yeah, it was that was that
was That was tricky because there was also like a
language barrier there and if it wasn't in the book,
it was really hard to access. So for me because
(12:45):
I don't speak fluent Spanish and I definitely don't read
fluent Spanish about crime, like at the level where I
could add anything if that makes sense, like I can
you know, maybe get to the bathroom if you tell
me the instructions. But but yeah, that was a that
was a great I was really happy to find that
story because again it's like a new angle on a
(13:07):
story we're really familiar with.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Well, I mean, you make it so real because these kidnappers,
they weren't messing around. They were hardcore, and if you
were the driver of a car. Boom, boom, you're gone.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Yeah, they merciless. Yeah, and that story too. I mean
even the guards. To me, I was like, oh wow,
like you are they were children. They were like fifteen
seventeen years old, living in poverty, thinking like okay, for
a few years, I can make bank and set my
family up, and I know I'm going to die young,
Like I know that that is the case. We're just
(13:39):
going to live it up for the little while that
I have. Like that was a real thing that the
journalists came back and talked about, was like they were
ferocious children who had like they were very fatalistic. And
that is such a bummer story, especially because like these
these are grown women with careers and families held captive
(14:00):
children like kids their children's age. So yeah, and they
were a merciless because that's all they knew, and they
knew that they if they weren't doing exactly what they
were told, they were totally expendable, like by their own employer.
And that that's just this so bad. It's so bad.
(14:20):
I don't know how else to say it.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Well, you're kind of proving in the in these podcasts
is that you can be anybody, any career, any city,
and a crime can happen. And because a lot of
these people here, you would never know that they were.
That's the one that broke the gund First, I'll give
you a good example, Linda Taylor. Linda Taylor. Who would
have ever thought about Linda Taylor and and and being
the notorious welfare queen?
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Right. I loved that story and we got to have
the author of that book on as well. He has
a like a four part podcast about it too that
I think goes even in more depth because it released
after the book, so it's like new information included, which
is really cool. But yeah, I you know, I hear
about like a welfare queen and I'm like, okay, does
that exist? Is that like a political you know, practic
(15:08):
And to a degree yes to both. So yeah, she
like really was a chameleon. Like it was a really
cool story to tell. And it was also like she
was so slippery, right because she was always in disguise,
that she was always putting on a persona. So if
he hadn't done all of the legwork for me, basically
not for me, but like, I would never have been
(15:29):
able to pin that story down without Josh Lavine, like
his book is what really held the narrative together because
she had so many aliases and this is before the internet,
so she was you know, her mugshots would look completely different.
And yeah, it's it's interesting. It's very interesting the way
that they strung all of that together. Finally, like way
(15:51):
later in her life.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
How do you go to with Starbucks and not look
at somebody and think there's a story here? Oh, I
know there's a story.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Oh. I do think that. I think that about everyone
is like they have a story that they're just waiting
for the right person to ask about so they can
tell it. Everyone has one and if you don't have
one yet, you're gonna have one. You're gonna get one.
But I do think that, and I think it's just
like I don't want to say like picking and choosing
(16:21):
about who to ask, but like you got to get there,
You got to get you got to get to that
point in the conversation where it comes up kind of naturally.
You know, I don't want to go up to someone
and be like, tell me about your worst childhood experience,
you know, like I don't want to start a conversation
like that. But everybody has a story.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Don't you think that begins with the art of It's
not that they're happy to see you. You're making it
look like you're happy to see them, and that warms
up their heart. Therefore, it's like, there's my door I
can walk in.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
I think so. Yeah. I think people also, just as
a human quality, like to talk about themselves. Be does
not that many people ask?
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, but see, but I love that about a podcasting
in the way that they, for instance, liked with your podcast.
It is a conversation starter. It is a great place
to you know, Hey, did you hear that latest episode? Yeah,
and you just start talking. And that, to me is
why podcasting is so big, because we're listening to it
and then we go out and have conversations.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
I love that, and I I'm so glad you said
that because I know I will be reading about these
stories and and just like put the put the story down,
and I'm like, I gotta you're not gonna believe this.
I'll bust my husband's office and be like, oh, you're
on a call, it doesn't matter, hang up. I have
to tell you about this criminal Crematorium family Enterprise right now. Like, yeah,
(17:39):
I have to tell you about it right now. You're
not gonna believe it. I got like when we were
researching Cassy Chadwick. I remember going to my exercise like
my gym and being like, I have to tell you
about how this woman in the Gilded Age pad nick
and then crawled out of the window to escape because
she was posing as Andrew Carnegie's heiress, like his illegitimate child.
(18:04):
I have to tell you about it, Like I I'm
glad it's not just me that like seizes on this
and be like, oh, I have to tell this story now,
like it's my story. You know it's not, but for
some reason I feel entitled to tell it and then
hope that people talk to me about it.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Well, you have got to come back to this show
anytime in the future. I love where your heart is.
I love your storytelling. I love everything about you you
connecting with people.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Thank you so much, Aero. That's such a nice thing
to say. I love being on. Thank you so much
for having me.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Will you be brilliant today? Okay, you too.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Thank you so much.
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