November 6, 2025 • 10 mins
Jesse Jackson, the civil rights leader, activist, raconteur, and political candidate, finally gets a book worthy of his stature courtesy of CNN anchor Abby Phillip. Focusing on his presidential runs in 1984 and, especially, 1988, Phillip highlights how Jackson built an unlikely coalition that showed how Black political power could be consolidated. His experience working under Martin Luther King; his organizing the SLCC's Operation Breadbasket in Chicago and beyond; and his roots in the deep South combined into two astonishingly impactful presidential campaigns. Appealing to the working people of urban enclaves like that of Chicago, young people on college campuses, and Black people across the South, he created the modern Democratic coalition-one that has been used by all major Democrats seeking national success from With her expert reporting, natural storytelling skills, and a story so full of humanity, politics, and hope, Abby Phillip has written a rousing popular history that sheds new light on an American icon."Jesse Jackson's presidential campaigns showed America that leadership could look different, that power could be shared, and that more voices deserved to be heard," said Phillip. "His movement laid the foundation for the coalitions that define our democracy today. This book is my effort to capture the urgency, the messiness, and the possibility of that era, and what it still has to teach us now." At a time when questions of representation, democracy, and belonging are once again at the forefront of American life, A Dream Deferred offers urgent lessons from a leader who pioneered modern coalition politics. The battles Jesse Jackson fought in the 1980s, over voter access, multiracial coalition-building, and the visibility of Black political leadership, mirror the very debates shaping our politics today. By revisiting Jackson's story, Phillip not only restores him to his rightful place in history, but also reminds us that the struggles of the past are inseparable from the challenges of the present.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, I just wanted to let you know that arow
dot net is the place to get all seventeen of
my podcast. You don't have to go to these streaming
outfits and sit there and say where did he say
he was?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Again?
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yeah, ero dot net a r r oe dot net.
I mean, we got to start things off with what
you did with the index, because never in all of
my years have I seen an index that is so empowering,
so inspirational as well as my god, there's just something here.
It's like a book all its own, and it's just
there's just something about it that I could not take
(00:30):
my dang eyes off it.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I've never had someone start an interview asking me about
the index before, but that's a first and I love it.
Thank you well to me.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
It is the open door and all of a sudden,
it just because I mean, you know, at my age,
which is sixty three, I mean, Jesse Jackson has been
a huge part of my life. I mean, I mean
he I mean I could not get enough of him
in the nineteen eighties, the nineties, and then when you
start doing the research, you realize, oh wait a second,
he's in the seventies, He's in the sixties. And so
now you have this book that's saying, by the way,
(01:03):
I'm tapping you on the shoulder because there's something I
think you should know.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Absolutely. And I mean, the thing about Reverend Jackson is
that everybody has some kind of memory or awareness of him,
but it's more than likely it's not terribly complete because
he's had so many chapters going all the way to
the sixties, and so this book is about what I
(01:33):
think is one of his most consequential chapters. It's the
part of his life that I think a lot of people, yes,
they remember run Jesse Ruhn, but because of the way
that these campaigns were covered at the time, I don't
think a lot of people really knew the details of
what he did. And there's a lot in there that
(01:55):
I think we can take things away from. And I
think of big part of his legacy is in this time.
So you know, as we try to make sure, first
of all the history is told, it's important to do
it with an eye toward the parts that I think
(02:15):
otherwise I'm not sure that other people would have keyed
in on because it's easy to say, well, he didn't
make it to the nomination. So let's just forget about him.
But you also have to know that had he not run,
we may not probably would not have had a Barack Obama.
We may not have had, you know, Bernie Sanders resonating
(02:36):
in the same way, we may not have had some
of these figures that are with us right now, who
are who are kind of proteges in some ways of
Jesse Jackson.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Well, you clearly bring that up when you say that
Jesse Jackson, he showed that leadership can look very different
compared to what we have over the years.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
And that's how he made a name for himself. He
was inherently different from everyone else who was running in
those campaigns. In addition to the obvious fact that he
was a black man running for president, he was also
an unusual candidate. He was more of a celebrity figure
than a politician. He had never run for political office
(03:19):
before or won a political office before. And he was
also running on a message that wasn't being articulated by
any other candidate. It was a message of explicit unity,
where he was literally calling out all of the constituent
groups of the Democratic Party and saying, my campaign is
(03:39):
about all of you, and the fact that all of
you together can form a coalition that can be really powerful.
And then he also latered on top of that this
economic populist message that wasn't being voiced at the time.
Both the Republicans and the Democrats had candidates who were
kind of presenting establishment and you know, Median economics to
(04:05):
the American voter, and most voters said, what's the difference
between Democrats and Republicans. I'm sure you hear that all
the time right now, but they were asking themselves that
then too, and Jesse Jackson was doing something very different
at the time.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Now, is this the reason why you put Theodore Roosevelt's
quote in there? Only because if you really break it down,
he was all about the people. We also only know
part of his stories as well. And when I saw
the Theodore Roosevelt in there, I'm going, oh my god,
there is such a really sharp connection here that and
it just really drew me closer to those pages so
(04:38):
I could see what it was that we were going
to be growing into.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, I mean, I do think that that's part of it.
And it's also about the way in which Jesse Jackson
was the quintessential man in the arena. His whole life,
from the time that he was in college all the
way until present day. He always believed in simply doing
the thing, and I think that that's really important. It's
(05:06):
easy to throw stones at people about the way that
they're doing something, but it's hard to actually be somebody
who actually decides to do something. And I think that
that's part of the understanding of him as a figure,
which is that he is somebody who became controversial because
(05:28):
he was out there protesting, he was out there boycotting,
he was out there in the arena, And there's something
to be said for the courage that it takes to
be that person, as opposed to being somebody on the
outside who's just critiquing without having put their lives and
(05:49):
their bodies on the line.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Please do not move. There's more with Abby Philip coming
up next the name of the book Dream Deferred. We
are back with Abby Philip. I really, to this moment,
I still love Jesse Jackson because he had that voice
and he wasn't afraid to use it.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Now.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
I don't know if it's because I'm from Montana and
we speak so freely out there and we say what's
in our heart and that's what I saw in Jesse Jackson.
And on top of that, let's go ahead and tell
everybody that he had a connection to God. Well, oh
my god, you just won me over. You mean a
man of God inside that White House? Now you have
my attention.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, it's such an important part of the picture here,
you know, because he was a reverend, he came at
this from a moral place, and that's actually a language
that these days a lot of particularly democratic politicians are
not comfortable speaking, and he spoke it and it actually
(06:43):
gave him. It gave him an entry point to parts
of the electorate that I think are harder to reach
for democrats. You know, people who are inclined to be conservative,
people in rural parts of the country, people in the South.
They heard his sort of faith based moral message and
(07:04):
it resonated with them. And that's a part of the
picture too, that it wasn't just about economics, it wasn't
just about coalition politics. It was also about this moral
picture that he painted of America that got people to
at least hear him out in some cases and in
some cases converted unconventional voters to his campaigns.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Well, when my sixty five year old mother looks at
me and says, Son, you need to really look into
this Jesse guy. That tells me that she crossed the
age limit lines as well. She got into the hearts
of those that were in the elder generation.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah, very much so. And I can't tell you how
many people told me as I was writing this book
that you know, the story would go like this. My
father was, you know, a white guy from rural where
i've and even he voted for Jesse Jackson because he
(08:04):
thought that Jesse Jackson was the only person saying the
things that they really thought. And that very kind of story.
Just that's that's a sort of a kind of an
example of the type of story. I heard that so
many times from so many people as I was writing
this book, because there were a lot of voters who
(08:26):
just simply said, well, at least this guy is saying something. Yeah,
all the other people just sound like politicians, but he's
actually saying something. And that's an interesting that's an interesting characteristic.
It's authenticity that I think he conveyed that. I think
Americans still today are very hungry for now.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
I mean, let me ask you a question. You get
to take this up to the fourth level in the
way that you're going to utilize the strength of your
journalism background and bring us sound bites and bring this
to us in a podcast form to where we can
hear his voice so that we can or even even
in video wise we can see something in Hulu or
or Netflix, because I mean, there's just the people need
to embrace what I call the inflection, the pitch, the volume,
(09:07):
the tone, because that, to me is what sold Jesse Jackson.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
That's such a good point. And I don't know, you
know exactly what the future will hold, but you're so
right about the way in which this story you really
understand it when you feel and you see what he
was saying, because I think so much of his appeal
was his ability to move people. His nineteen eighty four
(09:34):
nineteen eighty eight convention speeches were so powerful, and these
were convention halls that were full of people who many
of whom didn't vote for him, and he brought many
of them to tears with this incredibly rousing speech and
people millions of Americans back home, you know, thirty five
million people were watching the end of a forty five
(09:56):
minute convention speech when Jesse Jackson was on the stage.
There was a lot of power in his rhetoric that
I think is really best conveyed when you see it
and hear it yourself. So I totally agree with you
on that.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Now you have got to come back to this show
anytime in the future. I love where your heart is.
We need this kind of leadership when it comes to
bringing our past into the presence so that we understand
who we are today.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
It's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for
having me.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Will you be brilliant today?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Okay, thank you. I'll have to be It's election day
in America, Yes it is. I'll be on I will
be on the air all night on CNN, so hope
you join us there too.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
And thank you for that loyalty. Thank you so much.
Hey, I just wanted to let you know that arow
dot net is the place to get all seventeen of
my podcast. You don't have to go to these streaming
outfits and sit there and say where did he say
he was?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Again?
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yeah, ero dot net a r r oe dot net.
I mean, we got to start things off with what
you did with the index, because never in all of
my years have I seen an index that is so empowering,
so inspirational as well as my god, there's just something here.
It's like a book all its own, and it's just
there's just something about it that I could not take
(00:30):
my dang eyes off it.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I've never had someone start an interview asking me about
the index before, but that's a first and I love it.
Thank you well to me.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
It is the open door and all of a sudden,
it just because I mean, you know, at my age,
which is sixty three, I mean, Jesse Jackson has been
a huge part of my life. I mean, I mean
he I mean I could not get enough of him
in the nineteen eighties, the nineties, and then when you
start doing the research, you realize, oh wait a second,
he's in the seventies, He's in the sixties. And so
now you have this book that's saying, by the way,
(01:03):
I'm tapping you on the shoulder because there's something I
think you should know.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Absolutely. And I mean, the thing about Reverend Jackson is
that everybody has some kind of memory or awareness of him,
but it's more than likely it's not terribly complete because
he's had so many chapters going all the way to
the sixties, and so this book is about what I
(01:33):
think is one of his most consequential chapters. It's the
part of his life that I think a lot of people, yes,
they remember run Jesse Ruhn, but because of the way
that these campaigns were covered at the time, I don't
think a lot of people really knew the details of
what he did. And there's a lot in there that
(01:55):
I think we can take things away from. And I
think of big part of his legacy is in this time.
So you know, as we try to make sure, first
of all the history is told, it's important to do
it with an eye toward the parts that I think
(02:15):
otherwise I'm not sure that other people would have keyed
in on because it's easy to say, well, he didn't
make it to the nomination. So let's just forget about him.
But you also have to know that had he not run,
we may not probably would not have had a Barack Obama.
We may not have had, you know, Bernie Sanders resonating
(02:36):
in the same way, we may not have had some
of these figures that are with us right now, who
are who are kind of proteges in some ways of
Jesse Jackson.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Well, you clearly bring that up when you say that
Jesse Jackson, he showed that leadership can look very different
compared to what we have over the years.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
And that's how he made a name for himself. He
was inherently different from everyone else who was running in
those campaigns. In addition to the obvious fact that he
was a black man running for president, he was also
an unusual candidate. He was more of a celebrity figure
than a politician. He had never run for political office
(03:19):
before or won a political office before. And he was
also running on a message that wasn't being articulated by
any other candidate. It was a message of explicit unity,
where he was literally calling out all of the constituent
groups of the Democratic Party and saying, my campaign is
(03:39):
about all of you, and the fact that all of
you together can form a coalition that can be really powerful.
And then he also latered on top of that this
economic populist message that wasn't being voiced at the time.
Both the Republicans and the Democrats had candidates who were
kind of presenting establishment and you know, Median economics to
(04:05):
the American voter, and most voters said, what's the difference
between Democrats and Republicans. I'm sure you hear that all
the time right now, but they were asking themselves that
then too, and Jesse Jackson was doing something very different
at the time.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Now, is this the reason why you put Theodore Roosevelt's
quote in there? Only because if you really break it down,
he was all about the people. We also only know
part of his stories as well. And when I saw
the Theodore Roosevelt in there, I'm going, oh my god,
there is such a really sharp connection here that and
it just really drew me closer to those pages so
(04:38):
I could see what it was that we were going
to be growing into.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, I mean, I do think that that's part of it.
And it's also about the way in which Jesse Jackson
was the quintessential man in the arena. His whole life,
from the time that he was in college all the
way until present day. He always believed in simply doing
the thing, and I think that that's really important. It's
(05:06):
easy to throw stones at people about the way that
they're doing something, but it's hard to actually be somebody
who actually decides to do something. And I think that
that's part of the understanding of him as a figure,
which is that he is somebody who became controversial because
(05:28):
he was out there protesting, he was out there boycotting,
he was out there in the arena, And there's something
to be said for the courage that it takes to
be that person, as opposed to being somebody on the
outside who's just critiquing without having put their lives and
(05:49):
their bodies on the line.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Please do not move. There's more with Abby Philip coming
up next the name of the book Dream Deferred. We
are back with Abby Philip. I really, to this moment,
I still love Jesse Jackson because he had that voice
and he wasn't afraid to use it.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Now.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
I don't know if it's because I'm from Montana and
we speak so freely out there and we say what's
in our heart and that's what I saw in Jesse Jackson.
And on top of that, let's go ahead and tell
everybody that he had a connection to God. Well, oh
my god, you just won me over. You mean a
man of God inside that White House? Now you have
my attention.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, it's such an important part of the picture here,
you know, because he was a reverend, he came at
this from a moral place, and that's actually a language
that these days a lot of particularly democratic politicians are
not comfortable speaking, and he spoke it and it actually
(06:43):
gave him. It gave him an entry point to parts
of the electorate that I think are harder to reach
for democrats. You know, people who are inclined to be conservative,
people in rural parts of the country, people in the South.
They heard his sort of faith based moral message and
(07:04):
it resonated with them. And that's a part of the
picture too, that it wasn't just about economics, it wasn't
just about coalition politics. It was also about this moral
picture that he painted of America that got people to
at least hear him out in some cases and in
some cases converted unconventional voters to his campaigns.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Well, when my sixty five year old mother looks at
me and says, Son, you need to really look into
this Jesse guy. That tells me that she crossed the
age limit lines as well. She got into the hearts
of those that were in the elder generation.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah, very much so. And I can't tell you how
many people told me as I was writing this book
that you know, the story would go like this. My
father was, you know, a white guy from rural where
i've and even he voted for Jesse Jackson because he
(08:04):
thought that Jesse Jackson was the only person saying the
things that they really thought. And that very kind of story.
Just that's that's a sort of a kind of an
example of the type of story. I heard that so
many times from so many people as I was writing
this book, because there were a lot of voters who
(08:26):
just simply said, well, at least this guy is saying something. Yeah,
all the other people just sound like politicians, but he's
actually saying something. And that's an interesting that's an interesting characteristic.
It's authenticity that I think he conveyed that. I think
Americans still today are very hungry for now.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
I mean, let me ask you a question. You get
to take this up to the fourth level in the
way that you're going to utilize the strength of your
journalism background and bring us sound bites and bring this
to us in a podcast form to where we can
hear his voice so that we can or even even
in video wise we can see something in Hulu or
or Netflix, because I mean, there's just the people need
to embrace what I call the inflection, the pitch, the volume,
(09:07):
the tone, because that, to me is what sold Jesse Jackson.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
That's such a good point. And I don't know, you
know exactly what the future will hold, but you're so
right about the way in which this story you really
understand it when you feel and you see what he
was saying, because I think so much of his appeal
was his ability to move people. His nineteen eighty four
(09:34):
nineteen eighty eight convention speeches were so powerful, and these
were convention halls that were full of people who many
of whom didn't vote for him, and he brought many
of them to tears with this incredibly rousing speech and
people millions of Americans back home, you know, thirty five
million people were watching the end of a forty five
(09:56):
minute convention speech when Jesse Jackson was on the stage.
There was a lot of power in his rhetoric that
I think is really best conveyed when you see it
and hear it yourself. So I totally agree with you
on that.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Now you have got to come back to this show
anytime in the future. I love where your heart is.
We need this kind of leadership when it comes to
bringing our past into the presence so that we understand
who we are today.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
It's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for
having me.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Will you be brilliant today?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Okay, thank you. I'll have to be It's election day
in America, Yes it is. I'll be on I will
be on the air all night on CNN, so hope
you join us there too.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
And thank you for that loyalty. Thank you so much.
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