Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, thanks for being a part of the conversation. Let's
do it. Let's play it forward. These are real people
with real stories. The Struggle to Play It Forward, episode
number six thirty seven is with author and historian Chris
eptein turrif Figaro. How are you fantastic? Looking forward to
talking with you, because this is every bit the reason
why I created the iHeartRadio channel view from the writing
instrument to get people to share their stories.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Oh my, perfect, perfect perfect, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
For you to take this journey. I mean, come on, Chris,
you know what it's like. You look at someone you say,
you've got to tell your story. I don't feel like it,
or I'm not in the mood. When am I gonna write?
They're gonna judge me. How do you get beyond those.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
You've got to That's a good question, and a lot
of people do have that anxiety up front at a
certain point. I think it takes once you can write
one story down and get through that one little process.
That's usually for people that have apprehension about it. To me,
that's usually the changing moment is first you make a
(01:00):
list of integral moments in someone's life, and you write
one of those stories, and all of a sudden it
doesn't seem that tough because you're not writing a book
per se. You're just going story by story by story.
Some can be long, some can be short. But I
think once you begin to reflect and review your life,
that becomes an exhilarating process and so all anxiety, or
(01:21):
at least a lot of it, tends to fade away
just throughout the process because you're reliving past glories, You're
re meeting old ghosts, you know, and there's something about that,
even if it's painful, sometimes that is very life affirming
and really helps you make sense of where you've been
and ultimately where you're going.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
The importance of what you're sharing with people and showing
people the way is the fact that I have nothing
for my mother and father or my grandparents, but I
do have thirty years of daily writing. So I thought
I'm going to end this by my making sure that
I write, so families need to understand this is an
important to about life.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I agree. I don't think this is all about publishing.
There are people that obviously want to have their book
out there, that want to sell books. That's fine, but
I think the art of storytelling to me, it's the
oldest practiced human art, going back to cave drawings fifteen
thousand years ago, where we had to share, as human beings,
share what we did that day and what the conflict
(02:23):
was and how we got through it. And that to
me is what's so valuable. And that's why to your point,
oral history is with families, you know, so we can
create a living record of just how humanity functioned and
how we got through stuff. Because no matter you know,
the next thousands, tens of thousands of years that the
(02:44):
one constant thread will be people getting through stuff. There's
always going to be conflict. Every day is going to
have some degree of conflict, and storytelling to me is
like the ultimate cure for that, or at least way
to cope. Coping mechanism for getting THROUGHLT is showing you know,
a good piece of writing. I think for minds any
(03:04):
reader that you're not alone. Somebody knows what you're going through,
and that's what's so key, especially when it comes to
families and family legacies and the characters and what they
got through, because then it'll let you know, you know,
what I can endure. I can get through things because
one hundred years ago. You know, my uncle Scott did
this when he opened his business. Is you know, have
(03:25):
or Dasher on the corner. Whatever happens to be. The
stories matter, and so but then there's people that want
to see themselves in the bookstore. That's great. That's an
unbelievable goal to shoot for. And I try and accommodate
everything in the book, whatever your writing goal is. You know,
I try and address as much as I can in
a very comprehensive manner.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
You talk about that coping. That is so important because
I'll tell you what. In the daily writing that I have,
I talk about what it was like to be in
radio during the nine to eleven I mean, I mean
because there are broadcasters out there that have no clue
what we went through during nine to eleven, and as
well as the COVID lockdown, Chris, and it's things like
this that really will inspire.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Well, that's key what you just said. Because the word memoir,
which I use a lot on the book, it's French
from memory, and people write a memoir that's not an autobiography,
and autobiography is your entire life, which, let's face it,
unless you're a well known personality. Most people aren't going
to read autobiographies unless you're some sort of actor, athlete,
(04:26):
you know, some big personality. But memoir is different because
memoir focuses on very specific experiences that are not so
broad based, but very specific. And that's where anybody can
write a compelling memoir. In your case, you know, you're
talking about COVID and nine to eleven. That's great memoir
topic because there are people warranted it that will never
(04:47):
know what that's like. But I mean, and and so
that's a good example.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
One of the greatest things that you've got with this
book one where one ear hears the rain, is the
fact that having that book. David Ducoveny on his podcast
recently said that he's reading a book that was fifty
years old. He says, those books still have energy in them.
Can you imagine someone's memoir.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Well, that's the key. I mean, a good story never
loses its magic, you know what I mean, it really doesn't.
I read books from the seventeen hundreds, eighteen hundreds, and
if it's if it's well told, if there are compelling
characters and some nice dialogue and great conflict, I mean,
that's what storytelling is, and I've got lots of different
(05:32):
prompts and stories and things within the book to help
you to help anybody get there. I'm I don't consider
myself a fancy writer on any level, and I want
this book to appeal to somebody that's never put pen
to paper, to someone who's been published many times, and
everyone in between. That's me. Was key was to not
deny anybody the opportunity to at least take a shot
(05:52):
at telling the story.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
You said three of my favorite words pin to paper.
I love my writing instruments. How can we get people
to you's the writing instrument and not necessarily speak into
their phone.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Well, listen, we're in a transitional state in terms of communication,
and I'm not going to judge it because I'm guilty.
Sometimes if I have a thought, I'll record it. But
I do like I look, I am totally married to
my yellow legal paths and my number two pencils and
pens and all that as well. Not so much for
writing as much as rough sketching story ideas and outlines
(06:24):
and lists and things like that. But my attitude is, look,
whatever mode that you use to communicate, to put things
down in some kind of permanent or at least semi
permanent basis. It's cool, you know, just when you do it,
be as descriptive as you can think about the reader.
Are you making them feel like they are with you?
If you're at a ballgame? Do they feel like they're
(06:47):
sitting next to you at the ballgame? I mean, I
think really strong writing in this kind of narrative sense,
it's pretty basic. It's it's being very descriptive and very
immersive and using your five senses. And again, I go
into a lot of this stuff in the while sharing
stories of having work with people like John Oates, like
the Doobie Brothers, where I described their process and what
(07:08):
we went through together to get them to a point
where they could tell their stories effectively.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, because they are telling stories in three and a
half minutes, and now you've got to get a book
out of them. Oh my god, what a challenge.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Chris Well, but that's a good point. But what you do,
especially in the case of talking about music, is what
got them to those three minutes. I mean, I remember
Pat's telling me about writing the song Blackwater and how
he described his whole day that day in New Orleans
of hopping on a street car taking his laundry to
a downtown Laundereat that the Doobie set a day off,
(07:41):
and just how the day unfolded and all of a sudden,
Blackwater isn't just a three minute song anymore. It's his
beautiful day spent in New Orleans that you know. And
so when you hear this song again, hopefully if you've
read the book, you think of it on a different level.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
So do you believe in the theory that Mark Twain
did put it in your own accent? In other words,
don't try to be somebody, be yourself on that page,
and who cares if it's written wrong.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I do agree with that. I mean, look, you want
you don't want to be sloppy, And I think I'm
hardly a grammarian, but I do think the capturing your
unique literary footprint is very important and not people tend
sometimes to over polish and make it fancy or perfect,
and that's not what it's about. Think about. I was equated.
(08:26):
There's a whole chapter in the book about why it's
like cooking everyone in a kitchen. You can give anybody
the same ingredients. It can make the same meal, but
in a different way they're gonna they're gonna mix up
the amounts they use based on their taste. And writing
is like that too. We can all retell the same story,
but we're gonna do it in our own way, with
our own words and our own attitude. And that's what
(08:46):
really matters, is making sure you're authentic to yourself when
you write it.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
The writing disciplines of putting them in more together. Is
it okay to contact family and friends, because sometimes their
interpretation of a relationship can be completely different.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
It's critical. I always think that you know wherever possible.
Offering alternative perspectives is a great way to unpack a
story because look, iways use an example in a writing
workshop that I do. If we all walked out and
saw a car accident, God for a bid, depending on
how we write about it would depend on where we
were standing. And if you were on the meaning you
(09:20):
were on the other side arrow and I didn't see
what you saw. It doesn't mean your truth is wrong.
It means you saw it differently, and it would be
important to talk to you about what you saw. I
could put it in my own words with your permission,
but getting different perspectives is a wonderful way to actually
build accuracy which matters, and you know, and complete parts
(09:41):
of it that we just weren't privy to.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Don't you think the average person just doesn't understand how
interesting they really are until they start asking themselves questions.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah, I think most people are modest, you know, when
it comes to looking at their life and not wanting
to sort of beat their chest over things. But I
think what I've watched happen for more than ten years
now in classes and workshops especially, are those are the
people the ones that are very reticent upfront to thinking
they're interesting or anything like that. They're the ones that
(10:14):
will find a couple of key stories in their life
that other people will say to them, that's amazing, how
can you not share that? And they'll get encouragement. I
love watching that happen in a room, and they'll realize that, yeah,
we've all got instances and experiences we've had that really
are unique to us. We mayn't think about it in
those terms that once people start reacting to it, we
(10:34):
recognize that, yes, we were lucky to go through certain
things that were specific that we're unique, that are worth
sharing with other people. The readers in this case can
learn from those.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Things as that leader and that instructor. How do you
face that wall when someone says, what do you think?
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Am I doing it right?
Speaker 2 (10:51):
What do you think? What do you think?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Because I don't want to discourage anybody, because what I
try to do is I get them to talk to me,
tell me what you think of what's going on.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I think that's smart. I do a similar thing. I
often find myself adopting what I think would probably be
the role of a therapist. Almost where you're listening, you're
being an active listener, and you're trying to guide them
towards those points that really matter. In terms of critique,
you've got to offer some kind of critique. Obviously, you
don't want to be Pollyanna about everything, but I think
(11:22):
gentle critique. When people are opening their hearts up, you
got to be careful because they're in a more vulnerable
state at that point, and so you want to critique gently,
focus on positives, obviously, but then if something's not working
from a narrative standpoint, help them with organization, help them
maybe look for better ways to describe something. The key
(11:44):
one of the key factors in the book is showing
and not telling. So don't say it's cold outside, show
the reader it's cold outside, Show the breath in the air,
show the icicles. You know what I mean? A lot
of it's that I often find myself in gentle critique
mode looking for showing and not telling opportunities.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
What about poetry, because there's a lot of people that
write in a very poetic way, and I always call
that hidden speak. They write in their own language, and
when a reader comes by, it's like, ah, I don't
get it.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
It's funny you asked. Said lately. I'm no poet by
any stretch, but in the last gosh six weeks, I
have found myself writing writing poems, and it's taught me
a lot. It's as a result of having met somebody
and I never really scratched that literary itch before. I'd
(12:36):
always kind of wanted to, and I had tinkered a bit,
but it really made me realize. And again there's a
little bit this in the book as well, and how
important amuse can be to inspire you sometimes where maybe
you didn't consider yourself a poet, maybe you're not a poet,
but you can still give it a good try, and
you can work at it if somebody inspires you. And
I think looking for personal inspirations in terms of storytelling, poetry,
(13:00):
any kind of verbal representation. It's a good thing. We're
surrounded by people that affect us. As I talked about
in the book, let them affect you be open to
the idea that someone's presence can help you create and
can help you do things you never thought about doing before.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
How do you get someone to be open enough to
go into the buried dirt end or the crowded cave,
because I mean, there's so much in there that needs
to be shared.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
That's a great question for me. It's about the simple
point of that when you the best way to get
through your pain or the fear is to confront it
head on. And we all pack away stories in our
head for so long because we're scared of them. But
when you confront them and you get them down on
paper and you deal with them, that to me is
(13:50):
how you wrestle away the control and you begin controlling
the pain rather than let the demons controlling you. I
think confronting it in story form very healthy way to
do it. It's not easy all the time, But I
think it's the best way to confront things.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
What you're doing with this book is amazing in the
way that you are giving forward. Is what you're doing.
Is this something that John Chiever opened the door for
you to do?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Absolutely? I mean, really strikes me is when I first
went to see him when I was about twelve. Wow,
he was like an old man. He struck me. Here's
this old writer in this beautiful colonial home, behind this
old his antique desk and I did the math one
of the book. Was when I was wrapping it up
and I thought, I'm his age right now that he
(14:34):
was when I first saw he was sixty two, and
I thought, Wow, what an interesting thing. This is where
I'm at at life. And I thought about where he
was at at life, and yeah, he definitely. I mean
I watched him with other people and I knew he
taught a lot, and so yeah, I answer everybody who
reaches out pretty much as much as I can. I
think it's important. And I try and spend as much
(14:57):
time in teaching sessions and give as much as he can,
because I know how hard the process can be. But
I've also had other great teachers who they don't know
their teachers. Plenty of students in my world, which you
may have experienced as well. They show you the way
by opening up in ways you've never seen before, working
with co write, you know, collaborative things like John Oates
(15:19):
and the Doobie Brothers and Dave Mason. They've taught me
because here are these people I grew up massive fans of,
you know, and yet they're letting me into their world
and they're sharing their legacy stories. So I learned from
others watching them go through their process, and I address
that in the book that sometimes oftentimes the best teachers
are the students. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, especially with these musicians, because I've been with both
of those guys, Hollanoates and the Dewie Brothers. And the
thing is is the thing that I've always learned about
them is that the process of writing is receiving. And
I think sometimes when people are putting down their memories,
they're forgetting to receive it. They feel like, well, I
got to talk about this, I got to talk to this.
You got to receive it first.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Exactly, and you have to you have to go through
that first phase of I got to talk about this.
But oftentimes the better stuff. The really relevant storytelling elements
are not the obvious. It's what's behind the obvious two
or three layers in and that's the patient process of
getting people to comb through those layers. And really, as
(16:20):
a whole story about John O, I've got stories in
the book about what it's like to work with those
people and what our defining moments were. And John and
I had a moment in a hotel where, you know,
I was on the road with Hollan Oates because John
and I worked a lot when he was traveling, and
the promoter had sent this beautiful like they always did,
like a five foot basket of fruit, you know, and
(16:41):
it was covered in cellophane, and we were early in
the process and I said, John, I said, you know what,
I got to be honest, that cellophane kind of makes
me think of where we are at right now. So
you're telling me good stories, but you're not letting me
really get to the fruit. And I think we have
to sort of proverbially remove the cellophane storytelling to get
to the heart of things. And that resonated with him,
(17:04):
and from that moment on he was a lot more
open and it developed into a very deep friendship as
well as a collaborative writing partnership. And I thought, you
know what, that's the kind of lesson. So I tell
that story in the book about being in that hotel
because I want people to again to be with me
through those instances and really know what it's like to
work with these people.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
One of the things and I'm excited to hear what
your answer is going to be. One of the things
about being a writer or to share your memories like
this is the fact that you get emotional. Don't be
afraid of the different shades that you're going to go into.
How do you deal with that?
Speaker 2 (17:36):
You don't you let it happen. Yeah, you know when
people We've had hundreds of people shedding tears when they
get up and read stories and classes, and they'll be
hesitant and we'll all do By that point the group
will encourage him and say, no, that just means it's
like you've struck gold. When something is that moving that
it pushes you to that point, it means you've gotten
(17:57):
to the stuff that really matters. So don't deal with it.
Let it happen, feel things, you know, let things resonate,
let it go, and you'll feel lighter afterwards. May be
hard at certain points while you're doing it, but I
think it's a very cathartic process. And there's a there's
a whole little sub chapter in the book called is
it Okay to cry? How funny you said that? And
(18:18):
I unpacked that whole thing of why. I don't think
it's it's okay. I think it's actually it's useful. It's
it's it's important to do it. It's important to get
to that point as much as you can.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
This book and what you're doing with writers is so
important because Barnes and Noble isn't letting we writers in
there to talk to people anymore. It's just the invitation
is not there. So the listeners need to understand that
you are extending your experience to them so they can learn.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
That's all I wanted to do. Honestly, I really thought
if I never wrote another book, at least I could
say that I took a shot for the person that
sits at home that's always told you know, you should
tell your story. You know, you should write a book,
or somebody that just thinks about their gram parents and
maybe capturing their story. It didn't matter to me what
people's motives or goals were. I just wanted to create
(19:07):
a space within the two covers, two book covers, where
people could open it almost anywhere and get something out
of it that's tangible, that's relevant, that's inspiring, that helps
them get to this point where they feel like sharing.
That's that simple for me.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Do you have a nickname for your writing? Because, and
this is going to sound dark, but I call it
bleeding ink. I gotta go bleed some ink right now.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
That's funny because there's a Hemingway quote in the book
where it's basically said, you know, writing isn't that big
of a deal. You just sit at a typewriter and bleed.
I mean, which I was love. No, I just I've
called it Storytellers for ten years just because I couldn't
think of it anything else. It just sort of became
that my writing groups, and it's really just that. I
mean again, I should you know was branded at some point,
(19:53):
But now that I've got where one hears the rain,
that to me is sort of a nice envelope because
that's from a John Chiever quote where he basically said,
you know, a great piece of prose, A great page
of prose, is where one here is the rain, one
hears the sound of battle, just basically describing good descriptive
writing and why that matters.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Wow, Where can people go to find out more? Chris,
Because you're reaching beyond just the pages of a book here.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Well, the book is everywhere that you can get books.
I mean Amazon, every you know, Barnes and Nobles. It's
got great distribution through Simon and Schuster. I'm very proud
of that. There's of course a Kindle version. I'll be
cutting an audio version soon. So it's wherever you find books.
It's easy to find. It's available now. And again it's
(20:38):
very excited about it. And again, even if you think
you've you can't write, I think this book could prove
you wrong. Because everybody can sit down, just like anybody
can sing, maybe not sing well at first, but you
have to start somewhere. And that's what this book is
all about. It's about a starting point, and then it's
about a gradual process that hopefully will unleash your voice.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Wow, one of these days, Chris, after all these years,
we got to get together face to face and not
over the phone. We just got we gotta get we
gotta do a face to face sometime.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
I would love that next time I'm back in your
neck of the woods, back and beautiful North Carolina, will
do that. Or similarly, if you're out here, just let
me know, I'll do it.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Man, you'd be brilliant today.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Okay, you too, Man, Thank you