Pod Crashing episode number 377 is with Sam Mullins from the podcast Go Boy! In the mid-century, Canada was home to some of the most inhumane prisons in the world. In order to survive, prisoners had to be tough as rocks. They needed to suffer through terrible living conditions, violent beatings, and ritual humiliation. At just 16 years old, Roger Caron begins his long career in (and out) of the Canadian Penal system. His story is one of daring prison escapes, risky bank robberies, and swift police arrests. The only thing that breaks Roger's cycle of self-destruction is writing. With the publication of his first book, Roger Caron is a free man and best-selling author. He has become the most sought-after speaker, doing press events and lectures across the country. Roger thrives in the limelight, but what happens when his 15 minutes are up? Go-Boy! is a series about self-worth and self-sabotage, and one man's journey to find the former despite the latter. Episodes available here: Https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-go-boy-270874258/
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, welcome to the conversation. We're pod crashing. Episode number
three seventy seven is with Sam Mullens from the podcast
Go Boy, Sam. Let's talk about the production value before
we get into anything, because I mean, you amaze me.
I'm a production person and to hear what you have
done with the music and the way that you, you know,
just bring the story forward, just blew me away as
someone on the other end of those speakers.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Oh, thanks so much, Erro.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
What went into it? Were you part of that production value?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (00:28):
So this is my third podcast working with composer and
sound engineer Garrett Tiedeman. He's based in Minneapolis, and when
I write these scripts, I kind of will give him
comps like you remember this moment in Secario where the
music is like this, and you know this moment and
(00:49):
kill Bill when it's like this, And I'll send him
some tracks and stuff like that, and he is just
a wizard where he really gets what I'm trying to do.
And the thing that Garrett is the best at is
so many times I'll write, like maybe a sound effect here,
(01:09):
like I want to hear the sound of him sawing
from the prison bars, or I want to hear this
phone ringing, And when I work with other people, so
many times I'll be like, I hate the sound of
this phone, I hate the sound of this whatever song.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Yeah, sound effect you pulled is just awful.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
But Garrett has such a gift for making it sound
so immersive and like you're there and scoring when he
needs to score, or finding the right track from some
library I've never heard of, Like.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
He just has this huge.
Speaker 4 (01:48):
Skill set and encyclopedic memory for where he finds all
the best music that uses.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
In a series.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Speaking of that music, though, dude, is how are you
getting by all the censors? Because if I drop any
type of song inside one of my shows, all of
a sudden, I've got these letters coming at me saying.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
We're gonna take you Downard, this is it, you've broken
the rules.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Oh, we still get those, but for us, we get
it more when we're pulling like an old CBC interview
from someone or something like that, or some old news
footage I find on YouTube or something like that.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
But for the music, it's kind.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Of like when you make one of these series, the company,
whether it's CBC or Sony or whatever, they'll be like,
we have you're allowed to use anything you want in
these three music libraries, So go nuts in there, but
don't find something outside of that because.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
We won't be able to afford it.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
So sometimes like you have to really have patience and
really dig and really know where to find what you're
looking for in those libraries because they're so vast and
a lot of it sounds terrible, but there are gems
in all of these libraries.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
The way that the time, the timing and the way
that you use the music is a beautiful tool because
I mean, when you need a music stab boom, it's there.
And as that listener, I'm going, my God and it
because because it takes me into the story.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Even deeper totally. Yeah, that's that's always my favorite. That's
always so thrilling because when you write these scripts, you'd
have table reads and then you have dry reads where
you record it and there's no music at all. But
so many times this moment that doesn't feel like it's
working on its own, when you find that the right
(03:37):
music underneath, it's just like magic. It just elevates the
storytelling and how immersive the scene can be and how
cinematic it feels. It like helps you see the images
in the story. Sometimes when it's doing when you find
the right music.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
And the thing about it is, though, is that what
you're choosing for music and the way that you're reading
the story or sharing the story. I don't feel like
that I'm back in nineteen fifty four. I feel like
it's happening in my headlines even today. I mean Roger's
you know, inside my mind, I'm going, my god, this
guy's taking a beating.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
But man, he's like a superhero here.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
He really is.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
He's like the most durable human I've ever heard of
in my life, and it's so funny to hear everything
that he's been through. And then you see him in
interviews and you're like, oh my god, he just looks
like a handsome dude. Yeah, he looks like an actor
or a box or something. But then you watch the
footage of him taking off his shirt and taking the
(04:35):
interviewer on a tour.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Of all his body scars. He's like, this was when
I was shaking, this was when I jumped through a window.
And you're like, wow, Wow, this guy has been through
a lot.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Did he let you in on how he's able to
channel that energy when so much energy is coming at him.
That's negative.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
Yeah, Roger just seems like he has in infinite well
of energy at all times.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Like even given everything.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
That he suffered through, there are very few moments where
his will to keep going was diminished. He always wanted
to go to go to do the next thing, like
I want to write this, I want to like jump
over that fence, dive through that window. I want to
(05:26):
drive fast.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
I want to learn how to be a pilot and
be a skydiver.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Like he he just never stopped going and never stopped
wanting to live his life to the fullest.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Well, he didn't realize he was a writer until he
started putting those words on a page. I mean that
that's the thing about it, And that's what I love
about this is the fact that he put it in
his words and nobody was standing over his shoulder saying.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
No, you got to write it like this. Put the
colon there, put the kuma.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Here, exactly like the way he describes it is all
of his memories existed in his head, yes, sort of
scenes from movie, and to him, writing was just describing
the movie in his head.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
And that's why he was such a great writer. And
reading his book Go Boy.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
Now it's still so electric, and it's one of those
things where when you're reading it, you can hear where
an English teacher or someone teaching him how to write
and proper structure, and I feel like that would have
made his book less raw and less electric.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Than it is.
Speaker 4 (06:35):
It's kind of one of those things where if a kid,
like if a kid is a musician, it's like, if
you're classically trained, it it might it could negatively affect
in some cases, your ability to get the song out
of your head and into the world by teaching yourself
how to get it out on whatever instruments you have
(06:57):
at hand.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
I totally get that, because when I heard that Eddie
van Halen and his brother Alex were classically trained, I
was like.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Oh, I thought this was just raw. Oh I didn't
want to hear that.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Come on, But you know, this story is what I
call a dear future reader story in the way that
you got your hands on the story because your your partner,
your creator party, creative partner, gives you this story for
you to study and then we're learning about this and
I guarantee you I'm going to find my nose inside
that book. So dear future reader. He had no idea.
(07:30):
Roger had no idea that we would be talking about
this today when he wrote that thing.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
No like he for him, I think it just started
out as therapy. Yes, he just felt like inside his
head was overflowing with stuff that he needed to get out.
And when he started scrawling and has broken his poor English,
it just like felt like he finally found a release
valve for himself and it made him feel better. And
(07:59):
it was only after several years of this therapeutic exercise
that he started to show it to other people and
they would tell him, I think you have some real
talent and I think this manuscript could really be something.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Please do not move. There is more with Sam Mullens
coming up next. Hey, thanks for coming back to my
conversation with Sam Mullens. The name of the podcast, go Boy.
One of the things that you share inside this story
is the actuality of a moment when when when Roger
decides that he's going to run that fans even though
there's Barboar on the top. In my mind while I
(08:34):
was listening, I'm going we've all been there, we all
wanted to take that chance, but how many of us
actually took that chance, knowing there would be pain on
the other side of that fans.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Yeah, he was completely fearless, and it's really a testament
to how strong his desire was to be free. Like
every time they put him in prison, they would he
would suffer worse and worse consequences at the hands of
the institution, like electroshock therapy. They would give him weird
(09:06):
drugs and beat them. And even though he knew what
would happen to him if this jail break was unsuccessful,
he just couldn't ever take his eyes over the top
of the.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Fence when he was in prison.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
He's like, if I made a grappling hook, I could
get out of here and never come back. Yeah, And
he never stopped obsessing about his freedom.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Sam.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
There are people that are in prison that are going
to discover this podcast and they're going to sit there
and they're they're going to idolize Roger Karan. They're they're
going to idolize him because they're gonna they're trying to
figure out how to get the hell out as well.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
Yeah, I wonder how Roger would fare in a modern prison.
It seems tougher than ever to get out whereas like,
for instance, Roger was able to escape one time because
he made like a dummy out of paper mache essentially
and put it into his bed, and that gave him
(10:08):
like a twelve hour head start on like going through
the vents and getting onto the roof and trying to
get out of there. Just I feel like that is
the type of jail break story from another time that
probably isn't possible anymore with the amount of surveillance and
automated enclosures in these prisons now. But he was also
(10:30):
kind of existed at the golden era of jail breaking,
I think in the fifties, sixties, seventies.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
When you were sitting across from him, did you see
a victim?
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Did you see a genius? What did you see and
what did you hear with his emotions?
Speaker 4 (10:45):
I wasn't able to sit across from him, but my
partner who I made this with, he did the final
interviews with him, which were all video interviews, so I
got to watch those. But what I love about those
interviews is that he is so one of one and
there's no one like him, And you know, some people
(11:09):
just have this twinkle in their eye that never leaves them,
and Roger was just so happy and easy to be around,
and he loved talking about all this stuff. And another
thing I love about Roger is he has no shame
in talking about all of the times that.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
He's screwed up in his life.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
Like he's very generous telling you about all the times
that he was stupid and he did something bad that
he shouldn't have done. Like he has a really good
relationship with the things that he's done. And it's sort
of like I was saying to my wife, it's sort
(11:50):
of like, you know how some people who are in
recovery or something like that, they're more generous about being
honest with themselves and their story. And that's sort of
how Roger struck me. Where there's nothing you could ask
him that would make him uncomfortable, and he would he
would always be willing to be vulnerable with my friend
(12:13):
Rob who did these interviews with him.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
See I love that.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
I love that about Roger because I mean, it's like
he's lived this life now he's willing to teach this life.
And that to me in listening to it and say,
oh my god, he's not just sitting here saying I
experienced this he's he's trying to get that word out there, saying, hey, hey,
there's something you can learn from what I just went through.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
Yeah, and that's one of my favorite things about that
happened to Roger was so he writes this book, it
becomes a.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Huge a huge success.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
He becomes the sort of the Golden Boy of rehabilitation,
where it's like, look at what is possible to someone
who has gone about their rehabilitation in the right way.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
He found creativity.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
So after this book was a hit, the Canadian government
hired him to travel across Canada talking to young people
about the power of creativity and no matter how dark
their rock bottom is, there's always a way to turn
it around. The Canadian government, who were the ones who
(13:18):
had abused him the most over the years in prison,
they hired him as an employee for many years to
be a motivational speaker.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Essentially.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Wow, dude, I gotta be honest you, I grew up
in the state of Montana. Never once in my entire
life have I ever thought of Canada with a prison system.
I mean I just have never, especially Brampton. I mean
it's like, there's a guy in Canada in prison. How
can this be I've never thought of something like that.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
That's one thing that you'll learn is we sure have
all the same types of characters in prison that you'll
see in any American representation too. Like I've love seeing
all the photos of him with all of these like
hard dudes, like hard criminals. Roger was on the weightlifting
(14:11):
group of guys, And when you see these photos of
these guys from the fifties, You're like, oh my god,
those look like the scariest dudes I've ever seen in
my life.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
So yeah, we've got we've got guys like that up
here too.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
So who do you think would play a great Roger
Karan in a movie? Would it be Marlon Brando, Johnny Depp?
Or are we gonna go with Bruce Willis?
Speaker 4 (14:34):
Ooh, it's got to be Brando, I think yes, because
Brando was like such an athlete too. It seems like
like he he was very believable as a sort of
like really solid and explosive physical presence in his younger stuff.
And that's Roger. Like Roger is one of those sort
(14:56):
of stocky, really quick, like five foot nine guys who
can beat up any huge guy you know, like he
was one of those guys who almost exclusively would fight
the biggest guy in prison and win.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, listeners have to understand that these are actual sound bites,
that when they when they take in this podcast called
Go Boy, that these are not actors playing out this
role at all, That that you really do have authenticity here.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Yeah, and that we we add access to such an
incredible archive from the CBC where there's so many he did,
like over two hundred CBC interviews really over the course
of his heyday those like five six years, and it's
really wonderful tape that we got to use in our series.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
How does a man who has been surrounded by so
much deep dark darkness become a superstar like this, because
I mean it to me, it proves it's like Paul
getting out of prison in the Bible, you know, it's like, oh,
you have you what? And then and then he goes
out and starts changing people's lives.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
I don't know how he did it. It's just one
thing that makes well two things. He was always like
a well liked and positive person, and I think the
thing that really saved him and allowed him to go
on was that he had unwavering love from his siblings
(16:26):
and his parents no matter what he did.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
So in the moments.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
Where he felt most alone, I think it really motivated
him to this idea that one day I'm going to
make my family proud, and I'm going to be able
to help help take care of my parents, and I'm
going to be able to help out my little sister Sue,
and that that is why I need to turn this around,
and that is why I need to work so hard
(16:52):
on this manuscript, and that's why I need to be
on my best behavior if I can stop my addiction
to uh, breaking out of prison and robbing banks when
I'm I need to break the cycle for them.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
So was it an addiction or was it a need
for attention? What was the main fuel behind Roger Karan?
Speaker 4 (17:16):
It was definitely not a need for attention. I don't
think I think, sorry, can you can you give me?
Speaker 1 (17:28):
In other words, was it was it an addiction? Basically
an addiction to excitement? Let's say, and you say that
it really was it? Okay, I get it, I get it.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
The most telling thing is that when so he becomes
a successful author and he has this money and he
buys a nice apartment, but he's kind of his skin
is kind of crawling all the time because he has
an addiction to fear and excitement.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
So he's like, I'm going to become a skydiver.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
So skydiving scratches the for a little bit, but then
he's like, Ah, this isn't enough, this isn't enough. I
need something reckless. So he decides he's going to become
a pilot. And all accounts of him being a pilot
is not only was he a pilot, but he needed
to go up when the weather was stormy and he
(18:19):
needed to land a little bit more roughly than he
needed to, you know, like he just needed to feel
afraid to just exist in the world.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
I think, Wow, where can people go to find out
more about you? Sam?
Speaker 4 (18:33):
My website is SAMs Mullins dot com and you can
probably find me on all the social media. And yeah,
I had two other podcasts that are coming out this year.
One just came out called Sea of Lies, which was
a CBC one, and I'll have one coming out in
(18:53):
December that we haven't even titled yet.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
But man, I love it.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah, please come back to this show anytime the future,
especially this coming December when that one comes.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Out, I'd love that excellent wee Time.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
You'd be brilliant today.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Okay, Sam, you too, Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Erro, thank you
Hey, welcome to the conversation. We're pod crashing. Episode number
three seventy seven is with Sam Mullens from the podcast
Go Boy, Sam. Let's talk about the production value before
we get into anything, because I mean, you amaze me.
I'm a production person and to hear what you have
done with the music and the way that you, you know,
just bring the story forward, just blew me away as
someone on the other end of those speakers.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Oh, thanks so much, Erro.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
What went into it? Were you part of that production value?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (00:28):
So this is my third podcast working with composer and
sound engineer Garrett Tiedeman. He's based in Minneapolis, and when
I write these scripts, I kind of will give him
comps like you remember this moment in Secario where the
music is like this, and you know this moment and
(00:49):
kill Bill when it's like this, And I'll send him
some tracks and stuff like that, and he is just
a wizard where he really gets what I'm trying to do.
And the thing that Garrett is the best at is
so many times I'll write, like maybe a sound effect here,
(01:09):
like I want to hear the sound of him sawing
from the prison bars, or I want to hear this
phone ringing, And when I work with other people, so
many times I'll be like, I hate the sound of
this phone, I hate the sound of this whatever song.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Yeah, sound effect you pulled is just awful.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
But Garrett has such a gift for making it sound
so immersive and like you're there and scoring when he
needs to score, or finding the right track from some
library I've never heard of, Like.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
He just has this huge.
Speaker 4 (01:48):
Skill set and encyclopedic memory for where he finds all
the best music that uses.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
In a series.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Speaking of that music, though, dude, is how are you
getting by all the censors? Because if I drop any
type of song inside one of my shows, all of
a sudden, I've got these letters coming at me saying.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
We're gonna take you Downard, this is it, you've broken
the rules.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Oh, we still get those, but for us, we get
it more when we're pulling like an old CBC interview
from someone or something like that, or some old news
footage I find on YouTube or something like that.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
But for the music, it's kind.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
Of like when you make one of these series, the company,
whether it's CBC or Sony or whatever, they'll be like,
we have you're allowed to use anything you want in
these three music libraries, So go nuts in there, but
don't find something outside of that because.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
We won't be able to afford it.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
So sometimes like you have to really have patience and
really dig and really know where to find what you're
looking for in those libraries because they're so vast and
a lot of it sounds terrible, but there are gems
in all of these libraries.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
The way that the time, the timing and the way
that you use the music is a beautiful tool because
I mean, when you need a music stab boom, it's there.
And as that listener, I'm going, my God and it
because because it takes me into the story.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Even deeper totally. Yeah, that's that's always my favorite. That's
always so thrilling because when you write these scripts, you'd
have table reads and then you have dry reads where
you record it and there's no music at all. But
so many times this moment that doesn't feel like it's
working on its own, when you find that the right
(03:37):
music underneath, it's just like magic. It just elevates the
storytelling and how immersive the scene can be and how
cinematic it feels. It like helps you see the images
in the story. Sometimes when it's doing when you find
the right music.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
And the thing about it is, though, is that what
you're choosing for music and the way that you're reading
the story or sharing the story. I don't feel like
that I'm back in nineteen fifty four. I feel like
it's happening in my headlines even today. I mean Roger's
you know, inside my mind, I'm going, my god, this
guy's taking a beating.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
But man, he's like a superhero here.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
He really is.
Speaker 4 (04:13):
He's like the most durable human I've ever heard of
in my life, and it's so funny to hear everything
that he's been through. And then you see him in
interviews and you're like, oh my god, he just looks
like a handsome dude. Yeah, he looks like an actor
or a box or something. But then you watch the
footage of him taking off his shirt and taking the
(04:35):
interviewer on a tour.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Of all his body scars. He's like, this was when
I was shaking, this was when I jumped through a window.
And you're like, wow, Wow, this guy has been through
a lot.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Did he let you in on how he's able to
channel that energy when so much energy is coming at him.
That's negative.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
Yeah, Roger just seems like he has in infinite well
of energy at all times.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Like even given everything.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
That he suffered through, there are very few moments where
his will to keep going was diminished. He always wanted
to go to go to do the next thing, like
I want to write this, I want to like jump
over that fence, dive through that window. I want to
(05:26):
drive fast.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
I want to learn how to be a pilot and
be a skydiver.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Like he he just never stopped going and never stopped
wanting to live his life to the fullest.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Well, he didn't realize he was a writer until he
started putting those words on a page. I mean that
that's the thing about it, And that's what I love
about this is the fact that he put it in
his words and nobody was standing over his shoulder saying.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
No, you got to write it like this. Put the
colon there, put the kuma.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Here, exactly like the way he describes it is all
of his memories existed in his head, yes, sort of
scenes from movie, and to him, writing was just describing
the movie in his head.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
And that's why he was such a great writer. And
reading his book Go Boy.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
Now it's still so electric, and it's one of those
things where when you're reading it, you can hear where
an English teacher or someone teaching him how to write
and proper structure, and I feel like that would have
made his book less raw and less electric.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Than it is.
Speaker 4 (06:35):
It's kind of one of those things where if a kid,
like if a kid is a musician, it's like, if
you're classically trained, it it might it could negatively affect
in some cases, your ability to get the song out
of your head and into the world by teaching yourself
how to get it out on whatever instruments you have
(06:57):
at hand.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
I totally get that, because when I heard that Eddie
van Halen and his brother Alex were classically trained, I
was like.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
Oh, I thought this was just raw. Oh I didn't
want to hear that.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Come on, But you know, this story is what I
call a dear future reader story in the way that
you got your hands on the story because your your partner,
your creator party, creative partner, gives you this story for
you to study and then we're learning about this and
I guarantee you I'm going to find my nose inside
that book. So dear future reader. He had no idea.
(07:30):
Roger had no idea that we would be talking about
this today when he wrote that thing.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
No like he for him, I think it just started
out as therapy. Yes, he just felt like inside his
head was overflowing with stuff that he needed to get out.
And when he started scrawling and has broken his poor English,
it just like felt like he finally found a release
valve for himself and it made him feel better. And
(07:59):
it was only after several years of this therapeutic exercise
that he started to show it to other people and
they would tell him, I think you have some real
talent and I think this manuscript could really be something.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Please do not move. There is more with Sam Mullens
coming up next. Hey, thanks for coming back to my
conversation with Sam Mullens. The name of the podcast, go Boy.
One of the things that you share inside this story
is the actuality of a moment when when when Roger
decides that he's going to run that fans even though
there's Barboar on the top. In my mind while I
(08:34):
was listening, I'm going we've all been there, we all
wanted to take that chance, but how many of us
actually took that chance, knowing there would be pain on
the other side of that fans.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Yeah, he was completely fearless, and it's really a testament
to how strong his desire was to be free. Like
every time they put him in prison, they would he
would suffer worse and worse consequences at the hands of
the institution, like electroshock therapy. They would give him weird
(09:06):
drugs and beat them. And even though he knew what
would happen to him if this jail break was unsuccessful,
he just couldn't ever take his eyes over the top
of the.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Fence when he was in prison.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
He's like, if I made a grappling hook, I could
get out of here and never come back. Yeah, And
he never stopped obsessing about his freedom.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Sam.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
There are people that are in prison that are going
to discover this podcast and they're going to sit there
and they're they're going to idolize Roger Karan. They're they're
going to idolize him because they're gonna they're trying to
figure out how to get the hell out as well.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
Yeah, I wonder how Roger would fare in a modern prison.
It seems tougher than ever to get out whereas like,
for instance, Roger was able to escape one time because
he made like a dummy out of paper mache essentially
and put it into his bed, and that gave him
(10:08):
like a twelve hour head start on like going through
the vents and getting onto the roof and trying to
get out of there. Just I feel like that is
the type of jail break story from another time that
probably isn't possible anymore with the amount of surveillance and
automated enclosures in these prisons now. But he was also
(10:30):
kind of existed at the golden era of jail breaking,
I think in the fifties, sixties, seventies.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
When you were sitting across from him, did you see
a victim?
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Did you see a genius? What did you see and
what did you hear with his emotions?
Speaker 4 (10:45):
I wasn't able to sit across from him, but my
partner who I made this with, he did the final
interviews with him, which were all video interviews, so I
got to watch those. But what I love about those
interviews is that he is so one of one and
there's no one like him, And you know, some people
(11:09):
just have this twinkle in their eye that never leaves them,
and Roger was just so happy and easy to be around,
and he loved talking about all this stuff. And another
thing I love about Roger is he has no shame
in talking about all of the times that.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
He's screwed up in his life.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
Like he's very generous telling you about all the times
that he was stupid and he did something bad that
he shouldn't have done. Like he has a really good
relationship with the things that he's done. And it's sort
of like I was saying to my wife, it's sort
(11:50):
of like, you know how some people who are in
recovery or something like that, they're more generous about being
honest with themselves and their story. And that's sort of
how Roger struck me. Where there's nothing you could ask
him that would make him uncomfortable, and he would he
would always be willing to be vulnerable with my friend
(12:13):
Rob who did these interviews with him.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
See I love that.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
I love that about Roger because I mean, it's like
he's lived this life now he's willing to teach this life.
And that to me in listening to it and say,
oh my god, he's not just sitting here saying I
experienced this he's he's trying to get that word out there, saying, hey, hey,
there's something you can learn from what I just went through.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
Yeah, and that's one of my favorite things about that
happened to Roger was so he writes this book, it
becomes a.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Huge a huge success.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
He becomes the sort of the Golden Boy of rehabilitation,
where it's like, look at what is possible to someone
who has gone about their rehabilitation in the right way.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
He found creativity.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
So after this book was a hit, the Canadian government
hired him to travel across Canada talking to young people
about the power of creativity and no matter how dark
their rock bottom is, there's always a way to turn
it around. The Canadian government, who were the ones who
(13:18):
had abused him the most over the years in prison,
they hired him as an employee for many years to
be a motivational speaker.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Essentially.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Wow, dude, I gotta be honest you, I grew up
in the state of Montana. Never once in my entire
life have I ever thought of Canada with a prison system.
I mean I just have never, especially Brampton. I mean
it's like, there's a guy in Canada in prison. How
can this be I've never thought of something like that.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
That's one thing that you'll learn is we sure have
all the same types of characters in prison that you'll
see in any American representation too. Like I've love seeing
all the photos of him with all of these like
hard dudes, like hard criminals. Roger was on the weightlifting
(14:11):
group of guys, And when you see these photos of
these guys from the fifties, You're like, oh my god,
those look like the scariest dudes I've ever seen in
my life.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
So yeah, we've got we've got guys like that up
here too.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
So who do you think would play a great Roger
Karan in a movie? Would it be Marlon Brando, Johnny Depp?
Or are we gonna go with Bruce Willis?
Speaker 4 (14:34):
Ooh, it's got to be Brando, I think yes, because
Brando was like such an athlete too. It seems like
like he he was very believable as a sort of
like really solid and explosive physical presence in his younger stuff.
And that's Roger. Like Roger is one of those sort
(14:56):
of stocky, really quick, like five foot nine guys who
can beat up any huge guy you know, like he
was one of those guys who almost exclusively would fight
the biggest guy in prison and win.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, listeners have to understand that these are actual sound bites,
that when they when they take in this podcast called
Go Boy, that these are not actors playing out this
role at all, That that you really do have authenticity here.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Yeah, and that we we add access to such an
incredible archive from the CBC where there's so many he did,
like over two hundred CBC interviews really over the course
of his heyday those like five six years, and it's
really wonderful tape that we got to use in our series.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
How does a man who has been surrounded by so
much deep dark darkness become a superstar like this, because
I mean it to me, it proves it's like Paul
getting out of prison in the Bible, you know, it's like, oh,
you have you what? And then and then he goes
out and starts changing people's lives.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
I don't know how he did it. It's just one
thing that makes well two things. He was always like
a well liked and positive person, and I think the
thing that really saved him and allowed him to go
on was that he had unwavering love from his siblings
(16:26):
and his parents no matter what he did.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
So in the moments.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
Where he felt most alone, I think it really motivated
him to this idea that one day I'm going to
make my family proud, and I'm going to be able
to help help take care of my parents, and I'm
going to be able to help out my little sister Sue,
and that that is why I need to turn this around,
and that is why I need to work so hard
(16:52):
on this manuscript, and that's why I need to be
on my best behavior if I can stop my addiction
to uh, breaking out of prison and robbing banks when
I'm I need to break the cycle for them.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
So was it an addiction or was it a need
for attention? What was the main fuel behind Roger Karan?
Speaker 4 (17:16):
It was definitely not a need for attention. I don't
think I think, sorry, can you can you give me?
Speaker 1 (17:28):
In other words, was it was it an addiction? Basically
an addiction to excitement? Let's say, and you say that
it really was it? Okay, I get it, I get it.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
The most telling thing is that when so he becomes
a successful author and he has this money and he
buys a nice apartment, but he's kind of his skin
is kind of crawling all the time because he has
an addiction to fear and excitement.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
So he's like, I'm going to become a skydiver.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
So skydiving scratches the for a little bit, but then
he's like, Ah, this isn't enough, this isn't enough. I
need something reckless. So he decides he's going to become
a pilot. And all accounts of him being a pilot
is not only was he a pilot, but he needed
to go up when the weather was stormy and he
(18:19):
needed to land a little bit more roughly than he
needed to, you know, like he just needed to feel
afraid to just exist in the world.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
I think, Wow, where can people go to find out
more about you? Sam?
Speaker 4 (18:33):
My website is SAMs Mullins dot com and you can
probably find me on all the social media. And yeah,
I had two other podcasts that are coming out this year.
One just came out called Sea of Lies, which was
a CBC one, and I'll have one coming out in
(18:53):
December that we haven't even titled yet.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
But man, I love it.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah, please come back to this show anytime the future,
especially this coming December when that one comes.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Out, I'd love that excellent wee Time.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
You'd be brilliant today.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Okay, Sam, you too, Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Erro, thank you
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