July 12, 2025 • 20 mins
Pod Crashing episode 378 with Gilbert King from the podcast Bone Valley Season 2. In 1987, 18-year-old Michelle Schofield was found dead in a phosphate pit in Florida. Two years later, her husband Leo was convicted and sentenced to life in prison. Fifteen years later, previously unidentified fingerprints matched Jeremy Scott--a violent teenager who lived nearby. Jeremy has since confessed to Michelle's murder. Yet, Leo Schofield remains behind bars. In season 2 of Bone Valley, host Gilbert King turns his focus on Jeremy Scott. He attempts to find out what turned Jeremy into a cold-blooded killer and who else may have suffered his wrath. King is the author of the Pulitzer Prize-winning book, "Devil in the Grove," which led to the exonerations of four innocent men.
Sample episode available here:
Https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-bone-valley-101763565/episode/introducing-bone-valley-season-2-271378968/
Sample episode available here:
Https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-bone-valley-101763565/episode/introducing-bone-valley-season-2-271378968/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, thanks for coming back to the conversation. Let's do
(00:02):
some pod crashing. Episode number three seventy eight is with
Gilbert King from the podcast Bone Valley season two. Gilbert,
this is one of the most amazing podcasts because it's
almost like this story has already been written and you
keep discovering all the little nuggets of information.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
That's very nice for you. Arrow.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Yeah, that's the benefit of just being totally obsessed with
these kind of cases.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
So, yeah, it's true. I've never stopped.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
In fact, I'm still looking into things and still following leads.
Like I don't even know why I'm doing this. I'm
trying of finished with the story, but no, here I am.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
It's almost like you're in Angela Lansbury. I mean, I
mean you're on a mission to uncover some truth here
and I mean I mean there should be a show
about you.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Well I don't know about that. I can't compete with Angela.
But you know, it's just one of those things like
I have the time, I'm really curious, and I build
these relationships with people and I want them to tell
me things, and you know, eventually you just get into
their trust and they start revealing things. To you that
maybe they haven't told their lawyers or they haven't told
(01:06):
police before. And I'm just just really curious about these things,
and so it's kind of natural for me to follow
these things. I do it with my books and I'm
doing it again.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Well.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
It just amazes me how one small conversation can inspire
someone to open the door for another conversation when they
were saying, I'm not talking to anybody about this, this
is my past, but yet you landed the conversation.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, it's true, and it's you know, I just find
it like if you if you treat people like in
a decent human way, like you know, you do the
research going in and so you're just not fumbling about
asking general questions. But I just have a couple of
really specific questions. Sometimes I feel like Colombo, you know,
like I just got to ask this one thing and
they help you and and I don't know, it's just
(01:50):
like a curiosity that I've had about these kind of
stories and just trying to get to the truth because ultimately,
like I believed that this young man Leo Schofield.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Was wrong for convicted of murdering his wife.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
And I once you understand that and you meet Leo,
and you talk to Leo, you believe it yourself, and
then like, all right, now, let's talk to the other
guy who says he did it. Yeah, and the state
doesn't believe him either, you know. So it's a strange
situation to find yourself in when you're having a relationship
with both the convicted murder who says he's innocent and
the person who's.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Never been caught who says I'm the one that did it.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Well, the compassion really opens up and sees it number
two right away when we're introduced to Jeremy, because I mean,
you know, his baby is so important to him and
he wants to make sure that that things are better.
It's almost like he wants to break his father's chain
so that he can grow with his child.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
And that was like the really surprising part because we didn't,
you know, like Jeremy's kid had reached out to me.
He said, you know, I never heard my father's voice
before I met him.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I got my mom.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Got pregnant while he was going off to prison, so
I never really had any kind of relationship with him.
And he said, I always thought he was a monster
that he killed all these people, and I was just
told to just don't even go near him, like, don't
get involved, and he goes. And then I was listening
to your podcast and he didn't sound.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Like a monster.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
He sounded really remorseful and sorry for what he'd done
that somebody else got played for a murder that he committed.
And so that sort of prompted Justin to say, you know,
I want to I want to know who my father is.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
You know, Justin is there's there's so much in this man.
I mean, first of all, he doesn't sound like he's
thirty two years old. I mean, I'm when when he
first is introduced in this storyline, I'm thinking, oh, he's
still a teen. You know, he just wants to know
what teens want to know.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Yeah, that's he struck me. In fact, I sometimes still
call him this kid and he's like, no, he's in
this mid thirty he's not a kid. But he did
strike you as longing for this fatherhood. You know. At
some points he gets the letters from his dad and
he's like, I feel like a kid again. This is
so I've never had a father figure before, and it's
like kind of takes you aback.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
It's strange to listen to.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Do you think that each episode is a new lesson learned?
I mean it's like every every time you go into
the next episode, it's like, oh God, pay attention, dude.
It's almost like I should be, you know, taking my
own notes of what's going on.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
And yeah, I did feel that way in a lot
of ways. Like I you know, sometimes it just come
back and hit you. Like there were times when we
were working on this podcast where like, I'm not sure
we have a story here, like what is this really about?
You know, And then like it just sort of all
came together and as we were just going along, we
didn't know where how it was going to end, where.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
It was going to go to. And then I think
it was really just.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
The people that we'd met along the way just really
their characters really developed, and you'd see how much they
cared about not just Leo the man who's wrongfully convicted,
but they cared about Jeremy too, Like you wanted to
see him be okay, and you know he's nobody wants
to see Jeremy get out of prison, right, but they
do want to see him like take accountability and try
(04:41):
to ease the suffering of the many victims from his violence.
And because he's willing to do that, I think you
can't really for a prosecutor, like it's the best thing possible.
You want somebody who goes to prison and says, I'm
taking accountability for what I did, I'm sorry for this,
and if I can tell the truth about this, maybe
it can help c your things up and maybe he's.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Some of the suffering. And that's exactly what Jeremy's doing.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
And I think that's why you get a lot of
empathy for him, because he's trying to do the right
thing after all these.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Years, and yet you you paint him as somebody that's
not you know, you know, I don't know it. Just
in the very beginning you paid him as being this
this rebel of sorts because I mean, I mean it's Justin,
you know, loves his father. The thing is, though, is
that that Jeremy had that dark side when he first
met Justin's mom, right, and.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
That was like a thing that was, you know, hard
for Justin to fathom because he wanted to know, he
wanted to know where he came from, and his mom
Jamie was just like, I don't want to talk about this,
I'm trying to put that behind me, and so you
hear her pain, and you know, interestingly enough, she said
to us, like, it's easier for me to tell you
all the things I went through with Jeremy than it
(05:47):
is to tell my own son about this. And so
that sort of became like a big part of the
podcast is Jamie sort of like telling us everything about
her time with Jeremy so that Justin will eventually in
this through us. And she was very very clear about this.
She said, I can't I can't tell Justin this stuff.
(06:08):
It's just too painful for me. But I can tell you,
and you can tell Justin. And so that was sort
of the agreement we had and and you know, Justin
ended up learning a lot about his dad, but also
like Justin's humanity in this story was just really took
us all by surprise, you know, the way he dealt
with this and how thoughtful and empathic he was. And
you know, ultimately he says in you know, the final episode,
(06:30):
he says, this is a story about people coming together
and caring for each other. And I was like, God,
like all that came from him, you know, like this
I'm going to call him.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
A kid again, but like this, this, this.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Is the person becomes the conscious of the whole story,
and he's the one who has the most understanding of it.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
I just it was deeply moving to me at times.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
You know, you're proving to those who do podcasts that
we never know who is going to discover what it
is that we're laying out there. And Justin is proof
of that, because that's how he found out about this story.
And then he reaches out to you and leaves you
a phone message.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Yeah, I mean that was the strangest thing. I was
in the middle of the night. I woke up the
next morning, I'm like, oh my god, this is like
this sounds like it's Jeremy's.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Kid calling me. And I was kind of getting used.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
To it, Like I did have people coming out of
the woodwork, but I didn't expect the son of the
killer to reach out to me.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
And so when that.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Happened, I was like, all right, I want to talk
to this And really we weren't even talking about a podcast.
I just felt like I knew he was out there,
and I just purposely didn't go to him because I
didn't want to open up these areas of pain, and
I just said, you know what, if he reaches out
to me, I'll talk to him, but I'm not going
to go out there and put this in his face
and say I need to come on and get some
comments from you about your father, because he didn't show
(07:44):
any interest in this, but he reached out to me.
He was so curious about it, and he really cared
about Leo, like he felt this tremendous amount of guilt.
He said, you know, if my father had been caught
for killing Leo's wife, I never would have been born
my father and put in prison right away. But the
fact that he didn't get caught, I was able.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
To be born and conceived.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
And he felt a lot of guilt for surviving this,
which is, you know, a really hard thing for us
to really comprehend. But he does lay it out pretty
cohesively in the story.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Well, the way that he describes it, though, I mean
because I mean for somebody, maybe it's because he is
in his thirties to look at his life and realize,
how did I get to this moment of now this
had to happen. If it would not have happened, now,
what am I going to do about tomorrow?
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Yeah, and he's I think he's got a really great approach.
I mean, he's very realistic.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
You know.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
He said, like, I'll start writing my dad. If sometime
we can meet, that would be great. I'll give him
a chance, but I don't want him to lie to me.
I don't want to be playing any games. I don't
have time for that in my life. You know, if
this is going to happen, it has to come from
a place of honesty and a place from like remorse.
And you know, Justin was like, I know my father
(08:57):
did some really awful things. I'm willing to give him
a chance. I don't want him lying to me. I
don't want to play in games. And I communicated that
message to Jeremy, and Jeremy was like that, if you
listen to your podcast, he knows what I've done. I'm
not going to lie to him. He's an adult. I'll
tell him everything. And that was the way that the
two of them approached each other. And so far it's
(09:17):
been really I think it's been really especially for Jeremy
because Jeremy has had no family, He's had no for
many years.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I was the only person that wrote Dan, the only
person he heard from on the outside.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
And now he's got like this son that he's been
thinking about for thirty something years who's back in his life.
And you know, again, Jeremy's never going to get out
of prison.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
He doesn't belong out of prison.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
But can he have some kind of redemption by telling
the truth and having a relationship with someone in his family.
I think the answer to that is yes, he can.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
He can.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
He'll be given a chance, and you know, hopefully he
makes the most of it.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Dude, that's almost like a Bible story. I mean, I
mean everything that you've been, you know, through, it's almost
like it came directly from a book.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Yeah, there's definitely parts of this. Like I don't know
where this is going. It did not sound like a
true crime podcast to me anymore. I don't know where
this is going to end up. But I had, like
I did have faith in it that something poignant was
happening by all of the people in it who decided
to just be honest and to speak out about things
that they witnessed.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
And you know, we went.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
And visited some of the other victims of Jeremy's violence
and talked to them about it, and you know, they
had some anger about like not being told the truth
by the state, by the prosecutors. They didn't understand the case.
They were always under the assumption that something else had happened.
And now having talked to Jeremy, when Jeremy is admitting
to this other murder, they committed that they never got
caught for it. Sort of provides some closure for some
(10:45):
of the other victims of his violence.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Please do not move. There's more with Gilbert King coming
up next. The name of the podcast is Bone Valley,
Season number two. We're back with Gilbert King. I got
to give you a compliment on something. Your interviewing style
amazes me because you it's almost like you put the
art of listening way ahead of the question because you're
you're waiting for that answer to come out. So, I mean,
(11:08):
is that something Where did you pick up that technique?
Speaker 2 (11:11):
You know? I have really wish I had a good
answer for this.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
I just remember, I've always been one of those guys
who like sits down next to you on the plane
and then you get the life confession, or in a
taxi cab, so you're driving and somebody just starts telling
you about you know, the most personal details of their life.
I don't know what it is, but I think it
is a listening thing, and I generally am not like
faking it. I'm really curious, and so I've just been
(11:35):
able to like talk to people and listen to people
in a way that's sincere and respectful. And I don't know,
I just it's just something that I've always been curious about.
I like people hearing people's stories, and so I think,
you know, I'm not staring at my phone while they're
talking to me or blanking out.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
I think I'm really just engaged and listening. And I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
It's one of those things that I consider it's sort
of a blessing and a curse in a lot of ways,
because you definitely don't want to be on an airplane
sometimes listen to someone's whole life story for the coast
to coast trip.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
The podcast we're talking about is Bone Valley season number two.
You know, the fact that you were able to sit
down and have that conversation with Jamie, I almost feel
like that you were called to that because she had
all of that inside of her, that that's been locked up,
lost and thrown into areas that she didn't want to
deal with. But yet you got her to talk, and that,
to me is inspiring. Hoping that other people who listen
(12:27):
to the podcast will do the same thing, they will
begin that process of helping someone release it.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Yeah, I mean, I really feel like that story is
like it's an awkward one to pursue because you're asking
someone to sort of recount the worst parts of their
life in a lot of ways, you know, and something
that you know, Jamie was obviously trying to put the rest,
trying to put out of her memory. And here, you know,
I show up and say, can we go back to
nineteen eighty seven your relationship with a murderer?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
You know? Like what was that? Like?
Speaker 3 (12:56):
You know, it took a lot of patience, a lot
of trust. You know, we had talked many times beforehand
before we agreed to do the interview, and I want
to make sure she feels safe and she feels comfortable
and she understands what it's going to entail and that
we're going to go into those areas.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
And ultimately, I think it.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Was cathartic in a lot of ways. I think that
there was you know, and I'm not a therapist. I
don't pretend to be a therapist, So like, the most
I can give is just basically listening and you know,
being in the area with people and listening to their
stories because I can't give them any like professional guidance
or help about that. But sometimes it's just being heard.
(13:37):
A lot of times people have stories that no one's
really listened to or they didn't never want to bring
up before. And so I think it was cathartic for
her in a lot of ways because she felt like
she was helping Justin get some answers about his origin,
where he came from. And she said to us, you know, look,
it's easier for me to tell you than it is
for me to tell Justin these things. It's just so
(13:57):
painful and emotional, but I feel like I can do
it through you. And so that was sort of the
way we structured the podcast. You tell us and we'll
go back to Justin, and that was sort of like
part of the story that we were able to tell.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, structuring that podcast. I can't imagine what you were
like inside the production room when it comes to editing,
because you land the interview, now you've got to write
the story. Now you've got to bring things together. As
that editor and producer. I mean, I can't imagine the
several steps that you've got to go through in order
for us to have one episode.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
And I have to say, like, you know, I'm a writer,
so I mostly write books, and it's mostly like a
very solitary act. The putting together a podcast is much
more collaborative. And so I had like these honestantly, like
these young women who are just so smart. They were
trained and went to school for audio storytelling, and I
just learned so much from them because there's times I
(14:49):
put together a script like an outline and they look
at it like, no, that's not how this goes you.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
This is you know, and they.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Really brought me to school, and I was like, I
realized how talented they were, you know, from the sound
editing and putting the sound of these interviews together and
looking for the most important like you end up writing
around the great tape that you've collected, and that was
something very different for me. As a writer of books,
I just go for the story, and I you know,
I have trial transcripts. I don't have to care about
(15:18):
how it sounds. But in this case, you know, you're
telling an audio story. You want the best sound, and
so they were just so they brought me to school
because there were times I almost really quit on this story.
I didn't think we had enough and yeah, and they
were like, did you listen to this, Like this is unbelievable,
And I was like, oh, yeah, I forgot, I forgot
I was in the room for that.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
That's that does sound pretty amazing. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
But you know what, though, you're you're being true to
the true roots of what of what podcasting is. It
wasn't the comedians, It wasn't you know, people with their
music getting their word out there. That podcasting was created
by authors, people who wanted to share stories. And you're
you're doing exactly that. You're bringing that story forward it
through a podcast.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, it's it's something about it.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
It's just very like primal in a lot of ways,
you know, like the ultimate you know, before there was
the written word, you had storytelling, Like in caves, you know,
forty thousand years ago, people gathered in caves and listened
to stories, and like that's one of the greatest communal
acts we have as human beings.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
And there's just something really intimate about.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Just putting on the headphones and maybe taking a walk
through a park or out of the streets and just
listening to someone tell you a story. You know, who
knew that people would like this just as much as
they liked listening to their music. It's just really an
intimate way of telling a story and having it right
there in your ears.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
I don't know, it just I'm really addicted to it.
I really I listened to a.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Lot of audiobooks now because of it, and I really
really enjoy this genre a lot.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah, when did you learn the fine art of brevity?
Because a lot of people, you know, you you could
easily make these episodes over sixty minutes, every single one
of them, but you use brevity as one of your
powerful tools.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah, I think it was one of the things that
we were all really committed to, is that we just
didn't want there to be a lot of filler.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
You just didn't want to be filling space.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
And you know, obviously I've spent like six years on
this case and these investigations. I could have filled many
many hours on this, but I just feel like, let's
just focus on the most concise way to.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Tell the story and not have a lot of extras.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Not waste anybody's time with you know, these side roads
that we could go down easily if we wanted to.
It just really came down to respecting the listener and
respecting their time, and just saying, like we've done the work,
let's just edit it down so that we feel like
people are engaged and people are moved by this. And
that's really what I really wanted to do is I
(17:44):
wanted people to listen to this and feel something, not
just hear something, but I want them to feel something
because there's an injustice that takes place in the story,
not just people losing their lives, but you know, people
actually losing their freedom being locked up for crimes.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
That they didn't commit.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
And that part of it just kind of infuriates me
when I see that the efforts of state went to
put an innocent man in prison. That just that's one
thing that just motivates me to tell this story right
and correct the narrative of a wrongful conviction.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Well, you're writing it puts us in a place of
what if this was me? I mean you, I mean,
I mean many times when I listen to the episodes,
I'm going, God, what happens if this would have been me.
How would I have reacted?
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Yeah, I think that was part of the thing, like
just focusing on Leo's story and just having him tell
the story of like this frantic search for his wife.
Something's wrong, She's to be here fifteen minutes ago, and
this goes on and on for hours, and he's starting
to recognize, like, something's wrong. She didn't get in a
car accident, she didn't get picked up and put in
jail for like not having a driver's license. Something's wrong,
(18:49):
something happened to her. And to just sort of put
yourself in his place, what would I do if my
wife didn't show up? I would be out there looking
for it. And I think people could really relate to
that horrible feeling of just like I know something's wrong
and I can't find my wife, and how desperate it was.
And then you know, months later, you're the suspect. You're
(19:10):
the person that they want to put in prison. And
I think, you know, people think, well, that's something that would.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Never happen to me.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
All you got to do is tell the truth and
it'll work itself out, and you realize, no, that's actually
not it. Sometimes the prosecutors not looking for the truth.
Sometimes they're just looking for a conviction, which is what
happened in this case.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Oh my god, where can people go to find out
more about you and everything? You admitted that you're an author.
Let's get those words out there.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Oh yeah, Well, you know, you can find Bone Valley anywhere.
You listen to podcasts, Apple, Spotify, anywhere. It's out there.
Just Bone Valley podcasts. You'll find it somewhere. It's free.
In fact, the last episode of season two is just
being released this morning, and so you can listen to
two episodes, and there's quite a few episodes now because
we covered obviously Leo got out of prison last year.
(19:54):
We covered that we were with him on his first
day of freedom, and so we've stuck with this story
the whole way through, where it looked like Leo was
given up hope that he's never getting out of prison,
and then all of a sudden, this story comes out
and people begin to recognize that that guy's innocent, and
then you know, he.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Ends up getting released from prison. And so, you know, I.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Think all you gotta do is just just start on
season one and listen to it. And I think, like
most people, you'll you'll want to hear more, and that's
sort of the same with us.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
We want to hear more.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Wow. Please come back to this show anytime in the future.
The door is always going to be open for you, sir.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
I appreciate it's a really pleasure talking to her.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Will you be brilliant today?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Okay, thank you sir. Take care.
Hey, thanks for coming back to the conversation. Let's do
(00:02):
some pod crashing. Episode number three seventy eight is with
Gilbert King from the podcast Bone Valley season two. Gilbert,
this is one of the most amazing podcasts because it's
almost like this story has already been written and you
keep discovering all the little nuggets of information.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
That's very nice for you. Arrow.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Yeah, that's the benefit of just being totally obsessed with
these kind of cases.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
So, yeah, it's true. I've never stopped.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
In fact, I'm still looking into things and still following leads.
Like I don't even know why I'm doing this. I'm
trying of finished with the story, but no, here I am.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
It's almost like you're in Angela Lansbury. I mean, I
mean you're on a mission to uncover some truth here
and I mean I mean there should be a show
about you.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
Well I don't know about that. I can't compete with Angela.
But you know, it's just one of those things like
I have the time, I'm really curious, and I build
these relationships with people and I want them to tell
me things, and you know, eventually you just get into
their trust and they start revealing things. To you that
maybe they haven't told their lawyers or they haven't told
(01:06):
police before. And I'm just just really curious about these things,
and so it's kind of natural for me to follow
these things. I do it with my books and I'm
doing it again.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Well.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
It just amazes me how one small conversation can inspire
someone to open the door for another conversation when they
were saying, I'm not talking to anybody about this, this
is my past, but yet you landed the conversation.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, it's true, and it's you know, I just find
it like if you if you treat people like in
a decent human way, like you know, you do the
research going in and so you're just not fumbling about
asking general questions. But I just have a couple of
really specific questions. Sometimes I feel like Colombo, you know,
like I just got to ask this one thing and
they help you and and I don't know, it's just
(01:50):
like a curiosity that I've had about these kind of
stories and just trying to get to the truth because ultimately,
like I believed that this young man Leo Schofield.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Was wrong for convicted of murdering his wife.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
And I once you understand that and you meet Leo,
and you talk to Leo, you believe it yourself, and
then like, all right, now, let's talk to the other
guy who says he did it. Yeah, and the state
doesn't believe him either, you know. So it's a strange
situation to find yourself in when you're having a relationship
with both the convicted murder who says he's innocent and
the person who's.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Never been caught who says I'm the one that did it.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Well, the compassion really opens up and sees it number
two right away when we're introduced to Jeremy, because I mean,
you know, his baby is so important to him and
he wants to make sure that that things are better.
It's almost like he wants to break his father's chain
so that he can grow with his child.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
And that was like the really surprising part because we didn't,
you know, like Jeremy's kid had reached out to me.
He said, you know, I never heard my father's voice
before I met him.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
I got my mom.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Got pregnant while he was going off to prison, so
I never really had any kind of relationship with him.
And he said, I always thought he was a monster
that he killed all these people, and I was just
told to just don't even go near him, like, don't
get involved, and he goes. And then I was listening
to your podcast and he didn't sound.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Like a monster.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
He sounded really remorseful and sorry for what he'd done
that somebody else got played for a murder that he committed.
And so that sort of prompted Justin to say, you know,
I want to I want to know who my father is.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
You know, Justin is there's there's so much in this man.
I mean, first of all, he doesn't sound like he's
thirty two years old. I mean, I'm when when he
first is introduced in this storyline, I'm thinking, oh, he's
still a teen. You know, he just wants to know
what teens want to know.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Yeah, that's he struck me. In fact, I sometimes still
call him this kid and he's like, no, he's in
this mid thirty he's not a kid. But he did
strike you as longing for this fatherhood. You know. At
some points he gets the letters from his dad and
he's like, I feel like a kid again. This is
so I've never had a father figure before, and it's
like kind of takes you aback.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
It's strange to listen to.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Do you think that each episode is a new lesson learned?
I mean it's like every every time you go into
the next episode, it's like, oh God, pay attention, dude.
It's almost like I should be, you know, taking my
own notes of what's going on.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
And yeah, I did feel that way in a lot
of ways. Like I you know, sometimes it just come
back and hit you. Like there were times when we
were working on this podcast where like, I'm not sure
we have a story here, like what is this really about?
You know, And then like it just sort of all
came together and as we were just going along, we
didn't know where how it was going to end, where.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
It was going to go to. And then I think
it was really just.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
The people that we'd met along the way just really
their characters really developed, and you'd see how much they
cared about not just Leo the man who's wrongfully convicted,
but they cared about Jeremy too, Like you wanted to
see him be okay, and you know he's nobody wants
to see Jeremy get out of prison, right, but they
do want to see him like take accountability and try
(04:41):
to ease the suffering of the many victims from his violence.
And because he's willing to do that, I think you
can't really for a prosecutor, like it's the best thing possible.
You want somebody who goes to prison and says, I'm
taking accountability for what I did, I'm sorry for this,
and if I can tell the truth about this, maybe
it can help c your things up and maybe he's.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Some of the suffering. And that's exactly what Jeremy's doing.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
And I think that's why you get a lot of
empathy for him, because he's trying to do the right
thing after all these.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Years, and yet you you paint him as somebody that's
not you know, you know, I don't know it. Just
in the very beginning you paid him as being this
this rebel of sorts because I mean, I mean it's Justin,
you know, loves his father. The thing is, though, is
that that Jeremy had that dark side when he first
met Justin's mom, right, and.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
That was like a thing that was, you know, hard
for Justin to fathom because he wanted to know, he
wanted to know where he came from, and his mom
Jamie was just like, I don't want to talk about this,
I'm trying to put that behind me, and so you
hear her pain, and you know, interestingly enough, she said
to us, like, it's easier for me to tell you
all the things I went through with Jeremy than it
(05:47):
is to tell my own son about this. And so
that sort of became like a big part of the
podcast is Jamie sort of like telling us everything about
her time with Jeremy so that Justin will eventually in
this through us. And she was very very clear about this.
She said, I can't I can't tell Justin this stuff.
(06:08):
It's just too painful for me. But I can tell you,
and you can tell Justin. And so that was sort
of the agreement we had and and you know, Justin
ended up learning a lot about his dad, but also
like Justin's humanity in this story was just really took
us all by surprise, you know, the way he dealt
with this and how thoughtful and empathic he was. And
you know, ultimately he says in you know, the final episode,
(06:30):
he says, this is a story about people coming together
and caring for each other. And I was like, God,
like all that came from him, you know, like this
I'm going to call him.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
A kid again, but like this, this, this.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Is the person becomes the conscious of the whole story,
and he's the one who has the most understanding of it.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
I just it was deeply moving to me at times.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
You know, you're proving to those who do podcasts that
we never know who is going to discover what it
is that we're laying out there. And Justin is proof
of that, because that's how he found out about this story.
And then he reaches out to you and leaves you
a phone message.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Yeah, I mean that was the strangest thing. I was
in the middle of the night. I woke up the
next morning, I'm like, oh my god, this is like
this sounds like it's Jeremy's.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Kid calling me. And I was kind of getting used.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
To it, Like I did have people coming out of
the woodwork, but I didn't expect the son of the
killer to reach out to me.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
And so when that.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Happened, I was like, all right, I want to talk
to this And really we weren't even talking about a podcast.
I just felt like I knew he was out there,
and I just purposely didn't go to him because I
didn't want to open up these areas of pain, and
I just said, you know what, if he reaches out
to me, I'll talk to him, but I'm not going
to go out there and put this in his face
and say I need to come on and get some
comments from you about your father, because he didn't show
(07:44):
any interest in this, but he reached out to me.
He was so curious about it, and he really cared
about Leo, like he felt this tremendous amount of guilt.
He said, you know, if my father had been caught
for killing Leo's wife, I never would have been born
my father and put in prison right away. But the
fact that he didn't get caught, I was able.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
To be born and conceived.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
And he felt a lot of guilt for surviving this,
which is, you know, a really hard thing for us
to really comprehend. But he does lay it out pretty
cohesively in the story.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Well, the way that he describes it, though, I mean
because I mean for somebody, maybe it's because he is
in his thirties to look at his life and realize,
how did I get to this moment of now this
had to happen. If it would not have happened, now,
what am I going to do about tomorrow?
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Yeah, and he's I think he's got a really great approach.
I mean, he's very realistic.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
You know.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
He said, like, I'll start writing my dad. If sometime
we can meet, that would be great. I'll give him
a chance, but I don't want him to lie to me.
I don't want to be playing any games. I don't
have time for that in my life. You know, if
this is going to happen, it has to come from
a place of honesty and a place from like remorse.
And you know, Justin was like, I know my father
(08:57):
did some really awful things. I'm willing to give him
a chance. I don't want him lying to me. I
don't want to play in games. And I communicated that
message to Jeremy, and Jeremy was like that, if you
listen to your podcast, he knows what I've done. I'm
not going to lie to him. He's an adult. I'll
tell him everything. And that was the way that the
two of them approached each other. And so far it's
(09:17):
been really I think it's been really especially for Jeremy
because Jeremy has had no family, He's had no for
many years.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I was the only person that wrote Dan, the only
person he heard from on the outside.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
And now he's got like this son that he's been
thinking about for thirty something years who's back in his life.
And you know, again, Jeremy's never going to get out
of prison.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
He doesn't belong out of prison.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
But can he have some kind of redemption by telling
the truth and having a relationship with someone in his family.
I think the answer to that is yes, he can.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
He can.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
He'll be given a chance, and you know, hopefully he
makes the most of it.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Dude, that's almost like a Bible story. I mean, I
mean everything that you've been, you know, through, it's almost
like it came directly from a book.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Yeah, there's definitely parts of this. Like I don't know
where this is going. It did not sound like a
true crime podcast to me anymore. I don't know where
this is going to end up. But I had, like
I did have faith in it that something poignant was
happening by all of the people in it who decided
to just be honest and to speak out about things
that they witnessed.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
And you know, we went.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
And visited some of the other victims of Jeremy's violence
and talked to them about it, and you know, they
had some anger about like not being told the truth
by the state, by the prosecutors. They didn't understand the case.
They were always under the assumption that something else had happened.
And now having talked to Jeremy, when Jeremy is admitting
to this other murder, they committed that they never got
caught for it. Sort of provides some closure for some
(10:45):
of the other victims of his violence.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Please do not move. There's more with Gilbert King coming
up next. The name of the podcast is Bone Valley,
Season number two. We're back with Gilbert King. I got
to give you a compliment on something. Your interviewing style
amazes me because you it's almost like you put the
art of listening way ahead of the question because you're
you're waiting for that answer to come out. So, I mean,
(11:08):
is that something Where did you pick up that technique?
Speaker 2 (11:11):
You know? I have really wish I had a good
answer for this.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
I just remember, I've always been one of those guys
who like sits down next to you on the plane
and then you get the life confession, or in a
taxi cab, so you're driving and somebody just starts telling
you about you know, the most personal details of their life.
I don't know what it is, but I think it
is a listening thing, and I generally am not like
faking it. I'm really curious, and so I've just been
(11:35):
able to like talk to people and listen to people
in a way that's sincere and respectful. And I don't know,
I just it's just something that I've always been curious about.
I like people hearing people's stories, and so I think,
you know, I'm not staring at my phone while they're
talking to me or blanking out.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
I think I'm really just engaged and listening. And I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
It's one of those things that I consider it's sort
of a blessing and a curse in a lot of ways,
because you definitely don't want to be on an airplane
sometimes listen to someone's whole life story for the coast
to coast trip.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
The podcast we're talking about is Bone Valley season number two.
You know, the fact that you were able to sit
down and have that conversation with Jamie, I almost feel
like that you were called to that because she had
all of that inside of her, that that's been locked up,
lost and thrown into areas that she didn't want to
deal with. But yet you got her to talk, and that,
to me is inspiring. Hoping that other people who listen
(12:27):
to the podcast will do the same thing, they will
begin that process of helping someone release it.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Yeah, I mean, I really feel like that story is
like it's an awkward one to pursue because you're asking
someone to sort of recount the worst parts of their
life in a lot of ways, you know, and something
that you know, Jamie was obviously trying to put the rest,
trying to put out of her memory. And here, you know,
I show up and say, can we go back to
nineteen eighty seven your relationship with a murderer?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
You know? Like what was that? Like?
Speaker 3 (12:56):
You know, it took a lot of patience, a lot
of trust. You know, we had talked many times beforehand
before we agreed to do the interview, and I want
to make sure she feels safe and she feels comfortable
and she understands what it's going to entail and that
we're going to go into those areas.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
And ultimately, I think it.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Was cathartic in a lot of ways. I think that
there was you know, and I'm not a therapist. I
don't pretend to be a therapist, So like, the most
I can give is just basically listening and you know,
being in the area with people and listening to their
stories because I can't give them any like professional guidance
or help about that. But sometimes it's just being heard.
(13:37):
A lot of times people have stories that no one's
really listened to or they didn't never want to bring
up before. And so I think it was cathartic for
her in a lot of ways because she felt like
she was helping Justin get some answers about his origin,
where he came from. And she said to us, you know, look,
it's easier for me to tell you than it is
for me to tell Justin these things. It's just so
(13:57):
painful and emotional, but I feel like I can do
it through you. And so that was sort of the
way we structured the podcast. You tell us and we'll
go back to Justin, and that was sort of like
part of the story that we were able to tell.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, structuring that podcast. I can't imagine what you were
like inside the production room when it comes to editing,
because you land the interview, now you've got to write
the story. Now you've got to bring things together. As
that editor and producer. I mean, I can't imagine the
several steps that you've got to go through in order
for us to have one episode.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
And I have to say, like, you know, I'm a writer,
so I mostly write books, and it's mostly like a
very solitary act. The putting together a podcast is much
more collaborative. And so I had like these honestantly, like
these young women who are just so smart. They were
trained and went to school for audio storytelling, and I
just learned so much from them because there's times I
(14:49):
put together a script like an outline and they look
at it like, no, that's not how this goes you.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
This is you know, and they.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Really brought me to school, and I was like, I
realized how talented they were, you know, from the sound
editing and putting the sound of these interviews together and
looking for the most important like you end up writing
around the great tape that you've collected, and that was
something very different for me. As a writer of books,
I just go for the story, and I you know,
I have trial transcripts. I don't have to care about
(15:18):
how it sounds. But in this case, you know, you're
telling an audio story. You want the best sound, and
so they were just so they brought me to school
because there were times I almost really quit on this story.
I didn't think we had enough and yeah, and they
were like, did you listen to this, Like this is unbelievable,
And I was like, oh, yeah, I forgot, I forgot
I was in the room for that.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
That's that does sound pretty amazing. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
But you know what, though, you're you're being true to
the true roots of what of what podcasting is. It
wasn't the comedians, It wasn't you know, people with their
music getting their word out there. That podcasting was created
by authors, people who wanted to share stories. And you're
you're doing exactly that. You're bringing that story forward it
through a podcast.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, it's it's something about it.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
It's just very like primal in a lot of ways,
you know, like the ultimate you know, before there was
the written word, you had storytelling, Like in caves, you know,
forty thousand years ago, people gathered in caves and listened
to stories, and like that's one of the greatest communal
acts we have as human beings.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
And there's just something really intimate about.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Just putting on the headphones and maybe taking a walk
through a park or out of the streets and just
listening to someone tell you a story. You know, who
knew that people would like this just as much as
they liked listening to their music. It's just really an
intimate way of telling a story and having it right
there in your ears.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
I don't know, it just I'm really addicted to it.
I really I listened to a.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Lot of audiobooks now because of it, and I really
really enjoy this genre a lot.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Yeah, when did you learn the fine art of brevity?
Because a lot of people, you know, you you could
easily make these episodes over sixty minutes, every single one
of them, but you use brevity as one of your
powerful tools.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah, I think it was one of the things that
we were all really committed to, is that we just
didn't want there to be a lot of filler.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
You just didn't want to be filling space.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
And you know, obviously I've spent like six years on
this case and these investigations. I could have filled many
many hours on this, but I just feel like, let's
just focus on the most concise way to.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Tell the story and not have a lot of extras.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Not waste anybody's time with you know, these side roads
that we could go down easily if we wanted to.
It just really came down to respecting the listener and
respecting their time, and just saying, like we've done the work,
let's just edit it down so that we feel like
people are engaged and people are moved by this. And
that's really what I really wanted to do is I
(17:44):
wanted people to listen to this and feel something, not
just hear something, but I want them to feel something
because there's an injustice that takes place in the story,
not just people losing their lives, but you know, people
actually losing their freedom being locked up for crimes.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
That they didn't commit.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
And that part of it just kind of infuriates me
when I see that the efforts of state went to
put an innocent man in prison. That just that's one
thing that just motivates me to tell this story right
and correct the narrative of a wrongful conviction.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Well, you're writing it puts us in a place of
what if this was me? I mean you, I mean,
I mean many times when I listen to the episodes,
I'm going, God, what happens if this would have been me.
How would I have reacted?
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Yeah, I think that was part of the thing, like
just focusing on Leo's story and just having him tell
the story of like this frantic search for his wife.
Something's wrong, She's to be here fifteen minutes ago, and
this goes on and on for hours, and he's starting
to recognize, like, something's wrong. She didn't get in a
car accident, she didn't get picked up and put in
jail for like not having a driver's license. Something's wrong,
(18:49):
something happened to her. And to just sort of put
yourself in his place, what would I do if my
wife didn't show up? I would be out there looking
for it. And I think people could really relate to
that horrible feeling of just like I know something's wrong
and I can't find my wife, and how desperate it was.
And then you know, months later, you're the suspect. You're
(19:10):
the person that they want to put in prison. And
I think, you know, people think, well, that's something that would.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Never happen to me.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
All you got to do is tell the truth and
it'll work itself out, and you realize, no, that's actually
not it. Sometimes the prosecutors not looking for the truth.
Sometimes they're just looking for a conviction, which is what
happened in this case.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Oh my god, where can people go to find out
more about you and everything? You admitted that you're an author.
Let's get those words out there.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Oh yeah, Well, you know, you can find Bone Valley anywhere.
You listen to podcasts, Apple, Spotify, anywhere. It's out there.
Just Bone Valley podcasts. You'll find it somewhere. It's free.
In fact, the last episode of season two is just
being released this morning, and so you can listen to
two episodes, and there's quite a few episodes now because
we covered obviously Leo got out of prison last year.
(19:54):
We covered that we were with him on his first
day of freedom, and so we've stuck with this story
the whole way through, where it looked like Leo was
given up hope that he's never getting out of prison,
and then all of a sudden, this story comes out
and people begin to recognize that that guy's innocent, and
then you know, he.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Ends up getting released from prison. And so, you know, I.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Think all you gotta do is just just start on
season one and listen to it. And I think, like
most people, you'll you'll want to hear more, and that's
sort of the same with us.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
We want to hear more.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Wow. Please come back to this show anytime in the future.
The door is always going to be open for you, sir.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
I appreciate it's a really pleasure talking to her.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Will you be brilliant today?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Okay, thank you sir. Take care.
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