December 20, 2025 • 19 mins
Pod Crashing episode 422 with Elin Lantz Lesser from the podcast America’s Crime Lab. Welcome to Othram aka "America's Crime Lab." Each week, we meet weary detectives and family members working an unsolved case that has wrecked a community and seemingly hit a dead end. until, in a last-ditch effort, the evidence is mailed to Othram. Episodes available here: Https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-americas-crime-lab-63028149/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
One of the most successful singing competitions on American television
is The Voice on NBC. We've had the opportunity to
sit down with those who have participated since two thy sixteen.
So where can you find them in one place? A
r r Oe dot net, Aero dot net. Look for
that Voice, enjoy your exploration. I got to tell you
(00:21):
that because I'm a podcaster and I hosted a podcast
called pod Crashing, which is blessed with every podcaster that's
on the planet. Your podcast blows me away because I
have never, in all of my years of being a
podcast listener and follower experienced what you are doing with
America's Crime Lab. You are giving me the inside view
(00:41):
of those that are investigating the crime, and I just
think that is so mesmerizing and it teaches me to
be more aware of where I am.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Mmm.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yeah, I mean that. Thank you for those such kind words.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
I do think this show, America's Crime Lab takes a
specific angle on things in a way that is unique.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
In the true crime podcasting world.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
You're onto something there, I would say, because you really
get to look behind the curtain at a lab that
is changing the face of how crimes are being solved.
I mean, with this new kind of DNA technology, these
cases from decades ago are turning from ice stone cold
to red piping hot.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
So it's it's an exciting time.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Doesn't that blow you away? How they can do that
with DNA? They can take a crime from several decades ago,
And because I just I had the hardest time digesting that,
because I just don't get it. But yet it is
such a powerful tool.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yeah, it's I think what's interesting too is you know,
first when DNA was rolled out in forensics, it was
people were a little skeptical of it. It couldn't really
wrap their minds around it. Now it's been around, you know,
for a little while here, and yet it is really
charging forward. It is changing so quickly. And that the
old form of DNA evidence, which you know that strategy
(02:06):
is still used, gives you about twenty markers of information
as far as the DNA, whereas now with this new technology,
they're getting between one hundred thousand and a million markers,
which gives you a lot more accuracy and an ability
to pinpoint who left their DNA at a crime scene
(02:28):
in a way that's never been seen before. And it's
just in the last handful of years that this has
really been rolled out, and now also DNA that is
more degraded. You know, at a crime scene, if it's
sitting out in the sun, the snow animals interact with it.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
It's mixed with a victims DNA. It's not like a.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Cheek swab that you'd send off to a genial view website.
It's like degraded, and they're able to use that degraded
DNA in a way they weren't able to before.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Do you think that we're going through kind of a
typical generational thing right now now? Because I mean, I
know of everything. It took place in Moscow because it's
been a part of my DNA now for several years.
And I'm from Montana, so therefore it hit me in
the gut when this happens up in Idaho, because that's
my neighbor. But the thing about it is, though, is
that when I brought this podcast up, more people told
me you got the wrong town. Dude. You know it
(03:16):
was East Coast, it wasn't Idaho. And I'm going, where
did I go wrong here? Or where did our generation
go where they're rewriting history? And it's like no, it
happened in Moscow.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Yeah, yeah, I don't know about that, but yeah, I
can imagine that's super close to home for you. And
I think in that case, what's really fascinating is that's
an example of how this new DNA technology is being
used in real time to not just for cold cases,
but it's helping in that case literally track down the
(03:51):
killer and so that we can arrest him before he
goes out and potentially commits another crime. So that could
have rippling effects that could save lives down the road.
And so it really is remarkable in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Locating the sheath, Oh my god, the way that you
paint that into this story. It is the only evidence
in the whole thing, and yet it controls the journey.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Yes, I mean, it was just a bit of DNA
evidence found on the snap on the sheath of the
knife that was found in the bed with two of
the victims. And you know, in the past maybe that
level or amount of DNA might not have been able
to be used, but it was able to be used.
And then by taking that DNA, doing this new type
(04:39):
of analysis that, like I mentioned, gives you so much
more information, and then putting that against genetic genealogy websites
that have consented to forensic investigations, you can basically build
out a family tree and deduce who committed the crime
in a way that you couldn't with the old technology.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
So basically you need a.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Lot of a haystack kind of out of nowhere, and
that was able to be done in the IDOH student
murder case because of that knife sheath.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
You guys face that gag order. I can't imagine what
your world was like because you're going five hundred miles
an hour and all of a sudden you had to
put the brakes on to find out what was the
next step and could things get done?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah. Well, I came into this project later.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Later on, so I personally experienced that less, but it
was fascinating with this gag order. What ended up happening
is the people who actually knew the evidence and what
was going on weren't allowed to talk about it. I
get why that's done, you know, it's to protect the
case in some ways. But then a lot of misinformation
was swirling around and stated as fact, even in the media,
(05:51):
simply because it was hard for people with a gag
order to correct it and so it's one of those
cases where it just got really swept up in a
wildfire of misinformation gossip, and luckily now we can get
out there and spread out the real information, hopefully the.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Way that you draw out the picture of the home,
because I had no idea that it was pretty much
a It was almost like a maze. It was three
different levels and there were so many different entries into
the house itself. I would freak out if I was
living in that house in fear that somebody was going
to come in through the third floor. That's an interesting point. Yeah,
there there were different entrances on different levels of the house, so.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
It is it does provide more opportunities and more ways
to get in. But in a way, it makes it
kind of interesting that the killer, Brian Coburger, was able
to to go in on a higher floor and get
to the third floor faster, and it's it's almost like
he kind of knew his way around this hodgepodge, hard
(06:56):
to understand house, like he had really planned it, which
is kind of a spooky thought.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Well, it kind of reminds me of Joan Bennet Ramsey's house,
because isn't that a freak out house as well and
going in every direction.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
See that was the vision I got when you were
describing it, and I'm going, what is going on here? Man?
These weird homes.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Yeah, it's like the layouts can be a puzzle, and
yet people if they know where to go. I mean,
clearly there's some deeper connection to what's happening if they
know these complicated layouts.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
When you're putting something like this together, though, I mean,
how do you steer away from rumors, clickbait and conspiracy
theories because you know everybody thinks they're writing this story
and that oh I know what the real thing is
because I heard somebody down there at the hardware store.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
That's such a good point.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
I mean, people love to talk about these cases even
when they don't necessarily know what's going on.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
So you really have to wade through a lot of information.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
You have to look at where you're getting the information,
what source, what if it's a reputable source. And then
also talking directly to the detectives, investigators, talking directly to
family members, even witnesses, people who are around at the
time to hear what they have. I mean, it's also
a reminder too, even if there's misinformation. There's all so
(08:17):
different points of view, like someone can remember something differently.
So the more I get into these cases, the more
I realize, Wow, there's no monopoly on the truth. You
kind of have to wade through it and just try
to get to the heart of what the truth is.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
I didn't see any headlines anywhere until this podcast. The
police are hanging out, They're sticking around a lot longer
than normal. Nobody has really gone into the house yet.
But then when they start going in there one at
a time, they realize one floor at a time has
a different story. We've got not just one murder here,
We've got a mass murder going on here.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Yeah, I mean, I can only imagine walking through that
house they think. On the podcast, we even share some
of the sound of what one of the police officers
walking through Who's I think he was fairly new on
the job and so it just he goes from room
to room and sees. Really, I mean, I don't need
to get into describing a very graphic scenes of these
(09:15):
college kids, you know, totally innocent.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
This is not typical for this community, and.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Just to slowly realize, WHOA, we have got a horrible
tragedy on our hands, and how do we even begin
to investigate. I mean, I can only imagine how much
pressure and overwhelmed that must have caused.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Please do not move. There's more with Ailan lance Lesser
coming up next. The name of the podcast is titled
America's Crime Lab. We're checking back in with Ailen lance Lesser.
Another first here that I didn't experience that when all
of this was was falling down, and that is is
that we got to know who the victims were. You
(09:57):
take the time so that we understand who they were
and still are, even in transition form.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Yeah, that's something I think is so important and one
of the reasons why I agreed to sign on to
this project. I wanted to make sure we focused on
victims and their families. We talked with family members, we
got to know, you know, one of the victims was
part of a set of triplets.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Who all went to the same school. Another one of
the students.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
I mean, I don't need to get into all those
details here, I guess, but just they're all people, and
they all have their personalities and connections and families, and
I mean even you living somewhat nearby, it's like you
feel impacted. It's this ripple effect and I know that's
a cliche, but it's these people and their loss.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
It impacts so many.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Do you think that your PhD in psychology is the
reason why you go from one episode right into the other.
There's no thinking twice at all. You just let iHeartRadio
just to just go to the next episode immediately.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
I mean, I personally can't get enough of understanding these
stories and giving these stories the space they deserve to
be processed and to be understood more fully. That's something
I feel like now that I've kind of shifted careers
away from psychology into media and journalism, It's like there
is a value in just listening and hearing these stories
(11:26):
and trying to understand them, especially in the case of
horrible tragedies. And so that's part of my mission personally,
and I just want to keep marching forward and giving
more of a platform for these people, these victims, these
communities to have their stories shared.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
How are you staying strong through all this? Because I
know that when I start digging into research, it affects
me emotionally, and then I've got to sit down and
have some defrag meditation time. Just so I can get
back on my feet again.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Yeah, you know there, I don't even fully know the answer.
I think it helps to work with a really great team.
You know, the producer I work with, Catherine Finalosa, who
does a lot of the research too. I think having
a really positive team that's supportive. I think you just
got to connect back with that also that mission of
(12:19):
why you're telling these stories, why they're important, And also
I think you know they can be dark and painful
at times, but I try to look.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
At the positive too.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Of often these stories are about pain, about horrible things
that have happened, but it's also a story of human
resilience and communities coming together to try to solve these cases.
Sometimes decades later. They care enough about these people that
passed to figure out what happened, and they care.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Enough to do that. So there's some hope in these
cases too.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I think because you go so in depth with Moscow
in the way of getting to know the parents as
well as the students, and that it's a college town
and everything that was taking place, because something like this
so urgently taking place, all of a sudden, the world
was on their streets. What about the recovery period, so
that other cities that are going through this, it's not
if anymore, it's when when other cities go through something
(13:11):
like this, they need to have a place like Moscow.
Who's going to say, Okay, here's what the next step
is healing. We've got to get you to start a
process of healing, and that's going to start with conversation.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I think you're right that it's so important to have
the conversations, to have the space. I think having memorials
where people can speak publicly.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
We talk about some of that in the show.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Although it's also striking how sometimes in those memorials, when
they happen so soon after the event, it's like people
don't even know what to.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Say exactly because they're still all in shock.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
But I do still think it's worthwhile to honor what happened,
to honor the victims and recognize what happened and the
deep impact. And yet it's a good point that tragedy
has happened everywhere, and it's kind of dark to think
that way, but like we all have to be ready
for it.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Well, I couldn't even prepare my heart when when you
when you put focus in on the phone call to
the parents, and and the mother it took a little
bit for her to digest that something's not right and
and and you know, because you never really think about
it being your own children and stuff like that. But
I love that you put that edgin us in there
because I think that as parents, uh, the anxiety is
with us at all times, and then when it becomes reality,
(14:30):
holy crap.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Yeah, I mean I think when she got that call,
she was in the grocery store even she like ran
into someone she knew, so she was actually in a
conversation and didn't pick up the phone right away. And
then she picked it up and they said that her
child was no longer here, and she was like, what, well,
go find them. She she didn't even realize what actually
(14:54):
had happened, that her child had been brutally murdered, and
and so yeah, it's it's interesting how it's like you
assume when something happens, you're hit by it immediately, and
it hits you so hard. But I also think for
some people it can be like the surreal out of
body thing where you're not even able to really process it.
(15:15):
It's yeah, and I think it's worthwhile to understand how
these different reactions and responses can happen.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
With your psychology background. One of the things that I've
always been really working hard on, especially in the past
five to ten years. Don't write the story before it happens,
and yet your crime lab is trying to write the
story to better understand what has happened.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
That's a really interesting point that, Yeah, it's kind of
like you're trying to use the evidence to point in
a specific direction and kind of work backwards in this
other way. And yeah, it's an interesting way of looking
at it. But I do think it's important to realize
(15:58):
with this DNA of it that it isn't considered like
a slam dunk exactly. I guess I kind of already
touched on this. You still need to find the other evidence.
You need to find out what else points to this
person having committed the crime. Just simply having the DNA
(16:19):
there doesn't solve the crime, So you kind of have
to work at both angles.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I think, yeah, because I got to be honest, I'm sure,
I'm like with everybody else, there were moments of doubt
where I'm going, Are you sure you got the right guy?
Are you sure I need more info? Input? Input, input,
somebody give me input.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Yes, And what is the way to think about this
new DNA is really that it's a new lead. That's
how even the people at the lab describe it. It's
not that we're saying this person first for one hundred
percent committed the crime. It gives us a direction, gives
us a name or a few names to investigate. So
then you figure out where was this person on that day,
(16:59):
how else are they connected to the victims or you know,
in the case of the Idaho student murders, there was
his car was in the area on video cameras and
his phone was turned off and he seemed to be
driving toward that area. So it's it's a conglomeration of
pieces of information to come to a solution.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Isn't that kind of scary? This new age of DNA
in the way of my father wouldn't let me play
basketball at the school because if there's a broken window,
I did it? To me, If I'm in an area
and my DNA was there, oh my god, I did it,
but I didn't do it, but the DNA says you
were there.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yeah, that is a fear.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
I mean, even I have thought about that in doing
this project, because there's even such a thing as touch DNA.
You know, when you like touch someone's arm, you leave
DNA there. So it's like anywhere you go, you're potentially
leaving DNA, and so it's like, oh, could they almost.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Frame me for a crime.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
But that is why it is so important to look
at you know, what type of DNA it is. It's
important to look at that those other pieces of evidence
and not just convict someone because they were in a
certain place, which is basically what DNA provides.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Wow, where can people go to find out more about you?
Because I want them to find your YouTube channel as well,
because you are really activated into this new age of
journalism and you are doing a fine job.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Well, I mean, our show is called America's Crime Lab.
My name is Allen lance Lessor's you can find me online.
But I do I do hope people listen because honestly,
under the way we explain this DNA I think is
really exciting and is something that I don't actually hear
very much in media about, like how does this new
(18:48):
DNA actually work? So I think if people are interested
in that, they should check it out.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Please come back to this show anytime in the future.
The door is always going to be open for you.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Thank you so much and thanks for a great conversation.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Will you be brilliant today?
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Okay, you too.
One of the most successful singing competitions on American television
is The Voice on NBC. We've had the opportunity to
sit down with those who have participated since two thy sixteen.
So where can you find them in one place? A
r r Oe dot net, Aero dot net. Look for
that Voice, enjoy your exploration. I got to tell you
(00:21):
that because I'm a podcaster and I hosted a podcast
called pod Crashing, which is blessed with every podcaster that's
on the planet. Your podcast blows me away because I
have never, in all of my years of being a
podcast listener and follower experienced what you are doing with
America's Crime Lab. You are giving me the inside view
(00:41):
of those that are investigating the crime, and I just
think that is so mesmerizing and it teaches me to
be more aware of where I am.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Mmm.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yeah, I mean that. Thank you for those such kind words.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
I do think this show, America's Crime Lab takes a
specific angle on things in a way that is unique.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
In the true crime podcasting world.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
You're onto something there, I would say, because you really
get to look behind the curtain at a lab that
is changing the face of how crimes are being solved.
I mean, with this new kind of DNA technology, these
cases from decades ago are turning from ice stone cold
to red piping hot.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
So it's it's an exciting time.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Doesn't that blow you away? How they can do that
with DNA? They can take a crime from several decades ago,
And because I just I had the hardest time digesting that,
because I just don't get it. But yet it is
such a powerful tool.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yeah, it's I think what's interesting too is you know,
first when DNA was rolled out in forensics, it was
people were a little skeptical of it. It couldn't really
wrap their minds around it. Now it's been around, you know,
for a little while here, and yet it is really
charging forward. It is changing so quickly. And that the
old form of DNA evidence, which you know that strategy
(02:06):
is still used, gives you about twenty markers of information
as far as the DNA, whereas now with this new technology,
they're getting between one hundred thousand and a million markers,
which gives you a lot more accuracy and an ability
to pinpoint who left their DNA at a crime scene
(02:28):
in a way that's never been seen before. And it's
just in the last handful of years that this has
really been rolled out, and now also DNA that is
more degraded. You know, at a crime scene, if it's
sitting out in the sun, the snow animals interact with it.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
It's mixed with a victims DNA. It's not like a.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Cheek swab that you'd send off to a genial view website.
It's like degraded, and they're able to use that degraded
DNA in a way they weren't able to before.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Do you think that we're going through kind of a
typical generational thing right now now? Because I mean, I
know of everything. It took place in Moscow because it's
been a part of my DNA now for several years.
And I'm from Montana, so therefore it hit me in
the gut when this happens up in Idaho, because that's
my neighbor. But the thing about it is, though, is
that when I brought this podcast up, more people told
me you got the wrong town. Dude. You know it
(03:16):
was East Coast, it wasn't Idaho. And I'm going, where
did I go wrong here? Or where did our generation
go where they're rewriting history? And it's like no, it
happened in Moscow.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Yeah, yeah, I don't know about that, but yeah, I
can imagine that's super close to home for you. And
I think in that case, what's really fascinating is that's
an example of how this new DNA technology is being
used in real time to not just for cold cases,
but it's helping in that case literally track down the
(03:51):
killer and so that we can arrest him before he
goes out and potentially commits another crime. So that could
have rippling effects that could save lives down the road.
And so it really is remarkable in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Locating the sheath, Oh my god, the way that you
paint that into this story. It is the only evidence
in the whole thing, and yet it controls the journey.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Yes, I mean, it was just a bit of DNA
evidence found on the snap on the sheath of the
knife that was found in the bed with two of
the victims. And you know, in the past maybe that
level or amount of DNA might not have been able
to be used, but it was able to be used.
And then by taking that DNA, doing this new type
(04:39):
of analysis that, like I mentioned, gives you so much
more information, and then putting that against genetic genealogy websites
that have consented to forensic investigations, you can basically build
out a family tree and deduce who committed the crime
in a way that you couldn't with the old technology.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
So basically you need a.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Lot of a haystack kind of out of nowhere, and
that was able to be done in the IDOH student
murder case because of that knife sheath.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
You guys face that gag order. I can't imagine what
your world was like because you're going five hundred miles
an hour and all of a sudden you had to
put the brakes on to find out what was the
next step and could things get done?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah. Well, I came into this project later.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Later on, so I personally experienced that less, but it
was fascinating with this gag order. What ended up happening
is the people who actually knew the evidence and what
was going on weren't allowed to talk about it. I
get why that's done, you know, it's to protect the
case in some ways. But then a lot of misinformation
was swirling around and stated as fact, even in the media,
(05:51):
simply because it was hard for people with a gag
order to correct it and so it's one of those
cases where it just got really swept up in a
wildfire of misinformation gossip, and luckily now we can get
out there and spread out the real information, hopefully the.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Way that you draw out the picture of the home,
because I had no idea that it was pretty much
a It was almost like a maze. It was three
different levels and there were so many different entries into
the house itself. I would freak out if I was
living in that house in fear that somebody was going
to come in through the third floor. That's an interesting point. Yeah,
there there were different entrances on different levels of the house, so.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
It is it does provide more opportunities and more ways
to get in. But in a way, it makes it
kind of interesting that the killer, Brian Coburger, was able
to to go in on a higher floor and get
to the third floor faster, and it's it's almost like
he kind of knew his way around this hodgepodge, hard
(06:56):
to understand house, like he had really planned it, which
is kind of a spooky thought.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Well, it kind of reminds me of Joan Bennet Ramsey's house,
because isn't that a freak out house as well and
going in every direction.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
See that was the vision I got when you were
describing it, and I'm going, what is going on here? Man?
These weird homes.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Yeah, it's like the layouts can be a puzzle, and
yet people if they know where to go. I mean,
clearly there's some deeper connection to what's happening if they
know these complicated layouts.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
When you're putting something like this together, though, I mean,
how do you steer away from rumors, clickbait and conspiracy
theories because you know everybody thinks they're writing this story
and that oh I know what the real thing is
because I heard somebody down there at the hardware store.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
That's such a good point.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
I mean, people love to talk about these cases even
when they don't necessarily know what's going on.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
So you really have to wade through a lot of information.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
You have to look at where you're getting the information,
what source, what if it's a reputable source. And then
also talking directly to the detectives, investigators, talking directly to
family members, even witnesses, people who are around at the
time to hear what they have. I mean, it's also
a reminder too, even if there's misinformation. There's all so
(08:17):
different points of view, like someone can remember something differently.
So the more I get into these cases, the more
I realize, Wow, there's no monopoly on the truth. You
kind of have to wade through it and just try
to get to the heart of what the truth is.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
I didn't see any headlines anywhere until this podcast. The
police are hanging out, They're sticking around a lot longer
than normal. Nobody has really gone into the house yet.
But then when they start going in there one at
a time, they realize one floor at a time has
a different story. We've got not just one murder here,
We've got a mass murder going on here.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Yeah, I mean, I can only imagine walking through that
house they think. On the podcast, we even share some
of the sound of what one of the police officers
walking through Who's I think he was fairly new on
the job and so it just he goes from room
to room and sees. Really, I mean, I don't need
to get into describing a very graphic scenes of these
(09:15):
college kids, you know, totally innocent.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
This is not typical for this community, and.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Just to slowly realize, WHOA, we have got a horrible
tragedy on our hands, and how do we even begin
to investigate. I mean, I can only imagine how much
pressure and overwhelmed that must have caused.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Please do not move. There's more with Ailan lance Lesser
coming up next. The name of the podcast is titled
America's Crime Lab. We're checking back in with Ailen lance Lesser.
Another first here that I didn't experience that when all
of this was was falling down, and that is is
that we got to know who the victims were. You
(09:57):
take the time so that we understand who they were
and still are, even in transition form.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Yeah, that's something I think is so important and one
of the reasons why I agreed to sign on to
this project. I wanted to make sure we focused on
victims and their families. We talked with family members, we
got to know, you know, one of the victims was
part of a set of triplets.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Who all went to the same school. Another one of
the students.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
I mean, I don't need to get into all those
details here, I guess, but just they're all people, and
they all have their personalities and connections and families, and
I mean even you living somewhat nearby, it's like you
feel impacted. It's this ripple effect and I know that's
a cliche, but it's these people and their loss.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
It impacts so many.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Do you think that your PhD in psychology is the
reason why you go from one episode right into the other.
There's no thinking twice at all. You just let iHeartRadio
just to just go to the next episode immediately.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
I mean, I personally can't get enough of understanding these
stories and giving these stories the space they deserve to
be processed and to be understood more fully. That's something
I feel like now that I've kind of shifted careers
away from psychology into media and journalism, It's like there
is a value in just listening and hearing these stories
(11:26):
and trying to understand them, especially in the case of
horrible tragedies. And so that's part of my mission personally,
and I just want to keep marching forward and giving
more of a platform for these people, these victims, these
communities to have their stories shared.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
How are you staying strong through all this? Because I
know that when I start digging into research, it affects
me emotionally, and then I've got to sit down and
have some defrag meditation time. Just so I can get
back on my feet again.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Yeah, you know there, I don't even fully know the answer.
I think it helps to work with a really great team.
You know, the producer I work with, Catherine Finalosa, who
does a lot of the research too. I think having
a really positive team that's supportive. I think you just
got to connect back with that also that mission of
(12:19):
why you're telling these stories, why they're important, And also
I think you know they can be dark and painful
at times, but I try to look.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
At the positive too.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Of often these stories are about pain, about horrible things
that have happened, but it's also a story of human
resilience and communities coming together to try to solve these cases.
Sometimes decades later. They care enough about these people that
passed to figure out what happened, and they care.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Enough to do that. So there's some hope in these
cases too.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
I think because you go so in depth with Moscow
in the way of getting to know the parents as
well as the students, and that it's a college town
and everything that was taking place, because something like this
so urgently taking place, all of a sudden, the world
was on their streets. What about the recovery period, so
that other cities that are going through this, it's not
if anymore, it's when when other cities go through something
(13:11):
like this, they need to have a place like Moscow.
Who's going to say, Okay, here's what the next step
is healing. We've got to get you to start a
process of healing, and that's going to start with conversation.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I think you're right that it's so important to have
the conversations, to have the space. I think having memorials
where people can speak publicly.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
We talk about some of that in the show.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Although it's also striking how sometimes in those memorials, when
they happen so soon after the event, it's like people
don't even know what to.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Say exactly because they're still all in shock.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
But I do still think it's worthwhile to honor what happened,
to honor the victims and recognize what happened and the
deep impact. And yet it's a good point that tragedy
has happened everywhere, and it's kind of dark to think
that way, but like we all have to be ready
for it.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Well, I couldn't even prepare my heart when when you
when you put focus in on the phone call to
the parents, and and the mother it took a little
bit for her to digest that something's not right and
and and you know, because you never really think about
it being your own children and stuff like that. But
I love that you put that edgin us in there
because I think that as parents, uh, the anxiety is
with us at all times, and then when it becomes reality,
(14:30):
holy crap.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Yeah, I mean I think when she got that call,
she was in the grocery store even she like ran
into someone she knew, so she was actually in a
conversation and didn't pick up the phone right away. And
then she picked it up and they said that her
child was no longer here, and she was like, what, well,
go find them. She she didn't even realize what actually
(14:54):
had happened, that her child had been brutally murdered, and
and so yeah, it's it's interesting how it's like you
assume when something happens, you're hit by it immediately, and
it hits you so hard. But I also think for
some people it can be like the surreal out of
body thing where you're not even able to really process it.
(15:15):
It's yeah, and I think it's worthwhile to understand how
these different reactions and responses can happen.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
With your psychology background. One of the things that I've
always been really working hard on, especially in the past
five to ten years. Don't write the story before it happens,
and yet your crime lab is trying to write the
story to better understand what has happened.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
That's a really interesting point that, Yeah, it's kind of
like you're trying to use the evidence to point in
a specific direction and kind of work backwards in this
other way. And yeah, it's an interesting way of looking
at it. But I do think it's important to realize
(15:58):
with this DNA of it that it isn't considered like
a slam dunk exactly. I guess I kind of already
touched on this. You still need to find the other evidence.
You need to find out what else points to this
person having committed the crime. Just simply having the DNA
(16:19):
there doesn't solve the crime, So you kind of have
to work at both angles.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
I think, yeah, because I got to be honest, I'm sure,
I'm like with everybody else, there were moments of doubt
where I'm going, Are you sure you got the right guy?
Are you sure I need more info? Input? Input, input,
somebody give me input.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Yes, And what is the way to think about this
new DNA is really that it's a new lead. That's
how even the people at the lab describe it. It's
not that we're saying this person first for one hundred
percent committed the crime. It gives us a direction, gives
us a name or a few names to investigate. So
then you figure out where was this person on that day,
(16:59):
how else are they connected to the victims or you know,
in the case of the Idaho student murders, there was
his car was in the area on video cameras and
his phone was turned off and he seemed to be
driving toward that area. So it's it's a conglomeration of
pieces of information to come to a solution.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Isn't that kind of scary? This new age of DNA
in the way of my father wouldn't let me play
basketball at the school because if there's a broken window,
I did it? To me, If I'm in an area
and my DNA was there, oh my god, I did it,
but I didn't do it, but the DNA says you
were there.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yeah, that is a fear.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
I mean, even I have thought about that in doing
this project, because there's even such a thing as touch DNA.
You know, when you like touch someone's arm, you leave
DNA there. So it's like anywhere you go, you're potentially
leaving DNA, and so it's like, oh, could they almost.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Frame me for a crime.
Speaker 3 (17:55):
But that is why it is so important to look
at you know, what type of DNA it is. It's
important to look at that those other pieces of evidence
and not just convict someone because they were in a
certain place, which is basically what DNA provides.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Wow, where can people go to find out more about you?
Because I want them to find your YouTube channel as well,
because you are really activated into this new age of
journalism and you are doing a fine job.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Well, I mean, our show is called America's Crime Lab.
My name is Allen lance Lessor's you can find me online.
But I do I do hope people listen because honestly,
under the way we explain this DNA I think is
really exciting and is something that I don't actually hear
very much in media about, like how does this new
(18:48):
DNA actually work? So I think if people are interested
in that, they should check it out.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Please come back to this show anytime in the future.
The door is always going to be open for you.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Thank you so much and thanks for a great conversation.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Will you be brilliant today?
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Okay, you too.
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