April 30, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode of Ashes Rugby League Podcast, hosts Lee Addison and Johnny Davidson delve into the upcoming Ashes Rugby League series, discussing the implications of Dom Young's recent drop from the Sydney Roosters and its potential impact on England's squad.
They explore Australia's depth in the fullback position, the challenges England face, and the influence of Rugby Union turning professional. The conversation also touches on historical performance between England and Australia, highlighting the significant decline in England's success since Rugby Union's professionalization.
The episode concludes with a quiz on Ashes Rugby League history, adding a fun twist to the discussion.
Johnny and Lee delve into the intricacies of the game, discussing historical tours, player performances, and the impact of key figures like the late Rob Burrow.
They explore England's potential strategies against Australia, the significance of refereeing in the sport, and the evolution of match venues over the years.
They explore Australia's depth in the fullback position, the challenges England face, and the influence of Rugby Union turning professional. The conversation also touches on historical performance between England and Australia, highlighting the significant decline in England's success since Rugby Union's professionalization.
The episode concludes with a quiz on Ashes Rugby League history, adding a fun twist to the discussion.
Johnny and Lee delve into the intricacies of the game, discussing historical tours, player performances, and the impact of key figures like the late Rob Burrow.
They explore England's potential strategies against Australia, the significance of refereeing in the sport, and the evolution of match venues over the years.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello, and welcome to episode two of Ash's Rugby League Podcast.
My name is Lee Addison and I'm in Brisbane, Australia.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
And I'm John Davidson. I am an Australian living in
South Yorkshire.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Do you think people will have realized I'm an Englishman
living in Australia from that opening exchange, Johnny.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I think maybe you should have dropped some some mank
slash self audience.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Now for the for for those who have not listened
to us before, this is going to be a dedicated
Ashes Rugby League podcast. For what we both agree and
I think every listener will agree, is the most anticipated
international rugby league series that there has been in two
(00:57):
three decades, maybe so, John. The first thing I want
to talk about, and I know ascent a running order,
but I'm sort of changing that order. But I know
you'll be ready for this. I think the most pressing
thing right now is that domb Young, England's wing for
(01:19):
at least the last four years from my memory, first
choice has been dropped for the Sydney Roosters. What does
that mean for England?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I think you know, dom Young for England and I think,
you know, in the world of rugby league he is
a bit of a one off. You know, the size
of him, the height of the athleticism, the speed he's
a he's a special package. Now. I think he's always
probably had some defensive issues or maybe under the high ball,
not the safest of players, but you know, attacking wise,
(01:56):
he's brilliant. And yeah, it's it is interesting because you
think Sean Wayne would probably be reticent to pick someone
who's not playing week in weekend and if he's you know,
if he stays in his cup for for weeks and
weeks and weeks, it will definitely have an impact on
his on his selection chances. But on the flip side,
I think Wayne is a pretty loyal coach and you know,
(02:18):
Dom Young has certainly done the business for England since
I think it was the twenty twenty two World Cup
when he you know, he really caught the eye.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
What are Sean Wayne's alternatives for England.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, there's a few. There's a few wingers out there. Obviously,
Maddy Ashton Warrington's he's had a few caps for England.
There's Tom Johnson at Wakefield who's been around a long time,
was at Catalans for a while there, come back to
Wakefield this year's he's very experienced, great acrobatic finisher in
the corner. Liam Marshall at Wigan probably not as flashy,
(02:58):
but certainly get you know, great for yardage, but it
hasn't been able to really force his way into the
England sout. I mean you've got Ash Hanley at Leeds
who's been around, a long time quality player, so there
is a bit of depth. I'd say there's more depth
in the wings than perhaps some other positions for England, but.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Certainly Dom Young is probably the number one way.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I mean, Ryan Hall is still going around, but I think,
you know, his days as an England winger are gone.
And I think Tommy Makinson he's still going at Catalans.
I think, you know, I don't think he'll probably make
himself available, or if he did, I don't think England
would would go that way. So a few options and
a few players who've probably seen their best days.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
In England ship before.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
I mean Ryan Hall, phenomenal trust goring record for England
for twelve years or more.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
I think this is the area. The back three. The
Australia will probably have the edge. I'm obviously supporting England
in this Ashes series, even though I've lived in Australia
for almost two decades. But I'm going to run off
some names to you that are all fullbacks, right, because
(04:14):
the back three sometimes interchange in representative football, and I
want you to put these in order for Australia if
you can, no pressure to Desco, James Tedesco, Calen Ponger,
Dylan Edwards, and then if they get a few injuries,
(04:36):
I'm going to run off some more names for you.
Ryan Pappenhausen, the Hammer, could play at fullback. Will Kennedy
has been in great form for Cronulla and I don't
see anything that suggests he'd be playing for anybody else
so far. And I think one of the players of
(04:59):
the NROL com petition so far has been Jie Gray. Now,
just that list of names alone as not even mentioned.
I've not even mentioned Tommy Turbo, who will probably have
to play center. I would have thought possibly in representative
(05:20):
football because of the strength of the fullback position. This
is what I mean about the the backs in particular
being interchangeable. First question, can England live with any of
those combinations number two. Put those guys in order that
I've just rattled off.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
You've also just quickly you've met You've missed Latrelle and
Rye Walsh.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
I've missed Latrelle because I think he's a left center.
I don't think he's excelled as a fullback, so I
don't think he can play for Australia as a fullback.
And Ryce Walsh, I think his foot his form was
dipped considerably.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yeah, I think he's not in great form this season, definitely,
and I think probably the same for Dylan Edwards. He's
not been great this season or probably not to the
massively high standards that he's that he's been for the
last four years.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
James Tedesco is an interesting one.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I know, I know you you coached and know very
well he's been in great form and obviously had an
unbelievable career of coming towards the end. But he could
be you so wells starting fullback and I think if
he you know, if he's playing this year, he's done
the business for Australia. So yeah, there's an embarrassment of
riches at fullback. I think I'm mine biased being a
(06:42):
mainly fan, but also just his pure ability and size.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
It would be Tommy Tommy Turbo.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
But the only thing, as we all know, he's he's
made of sandpaper and you know, likes to run along
the corso. So I think if everyone's fit and firing,
you have Turbo and Latrell and the centers because they
are both unbelievable players, and then it's it's a toss
up at fullback I would say probably between Edwards and Tedesco.
(07:13):
And obviously we're you know, there's quite so many more
months in the season, so you know, I think you've
got to remember to the spine we're going to have,
well Australia will have if if everyone's fit, Nathan Cleary
at seven, you know, Edwards, Edwards at one, you've got
Yo and you've got Martin, so there's that natural connection obviously. Yes, yeah,
(07:37):
I think it's a two way for me. Ponger, Yeah,
I don't. I don't think he's at the level of
the others. He's dynamic, maybe off the bench, maybe he's
a squad player, and a few others you mentioned there
are probably below in the backing order.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Papa hasn't very similar to Ponger.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Again, he's had some some injury problems, hasn't he But
obviously an exciting player and England lived with him. That's
a great question.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
I think.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I think the fallback is probably the fullback and halves
is the best position that Stray has. The depth probably
not the same in the in the forwards. One thing
you mentioned the Hammer, I think he'll be playing for Samoa,
So okay, I think you can rule him out.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Which you know, is that your journalistic Is that journalistic knowledge?
Or have I missed something there?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
No?
Speaker 3 (08:28):
I think.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
I mean it's been talked about for a while. I
think he's come out and mentioned how he'd like to
I've not spoken to him, but I just think I
think the Samo coach Ben Gardner interviewed him a few
times last year. There's a lot of rumors about Payinghouse
and Tina and the Hammer conversations have continued and I
(08:49):
think it's all about planning for the next World Cup.
So I think it's likely that some of those players
who've played for the Kangaroos will will turn out for
somehow on the Pacific Championships this year.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
So that's that's my gut feeling.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
I think what i'd do is take the trip to
England with the Kangaroos and the jump ship. Just for
that again. For those who don't know, John is a
journalist in the UK. Freelance journalist contributes to several publications,
has his own podcast as well, called by the Balls.
So not just this Ash's Rugby League podcast. He does
(09:23):
another one and that comes out every couple of weeks,
I think, doesn't it, Johnny? And and I'm on Rugby
League Coach dot com buttay you and do the Rugby
League Coach podcast and one for Zero Tackle now as
well the Loose Kerry podcast. The I'm making a habit
(09:43):
here of asking you two questions at once, John, Right,
so I've noticed that the last fullback that played for
England has been playing standoff five eight for Saint Alan's lately.
And secondly, you threw a name at me this week
some who may be eligible for England.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I did well it just to add to that in
between when we spoke is another fallback who may be
eligible for England or could be eligible for England. Came
from and actually came from a former Great Britain line.
I won't name him today, but two names two Wigan
players who were born and bred in New South Wales
(10:27):
and came through the NRL system.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Bevan French and joy Field.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Now both of them are the Wigan books. Both of
them I'd have to check exactly, but I have been
in the UK for five to six years, which I
think you know international rules and rugby league.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
As we all know about the Nathan Fiene Granny Gate.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
They're quite fluid and I think it was that Adrian
Morley's brother played for Welsh and he's as well as
Welsh as I am.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
When was Granny Gate? You're bringing up something from the
archives there, John.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Two thousand and six. I actually give a shout out
to Rob Conlin. I think it was the website Real class.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
He did a piece on the two thousand and six
Try Nations or was it was the Try the Four Nations?
Whatever it was when the last time Great Britain beat Australia,
that famous game at the SFS, and that was Grande
Gate when Nathan Fenn said his grandmother was born in
his oil but it was actually his great grandmother. But yeah,
I'm diverting. Gy Field and Bevan French. Now Field is
(11:32):
obviously a fullback. French was a fullback who's played wing
and who's turned into a very very good six. So
would they make themselves eligible for England. I don't know.
I'm going to endeavor to find out. Woods Chill and
Wayne picked them. That's an interesting one. And when he
started he was big on the He literally said it
was a quote, I don't want heritage players, I want
(11:52):
people who are proud to play for England. And then
he backtracked on that and went with Victor Radley whose
dad is from South Yorkshire but was born in Sydney
in the Eastern suburbs. So in Radley has been great
for England. So I think if both those players came
to him said I want we want to know I
want to play for England. They've been considered and you
(12:12):
mentioned Wellsby not having a great season, so Helen's are
really struggling. He's been moved around him and Tristan Saylor
he's played in the halves before, he's played in the
halfs for England before the last World Cup. But he
is a fallback. So yeah, there's not a lot of
depth of fallback for England.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
So Tarfield, well, hang on, what's over here in Australia
is my memory serving right? But did aj Brimson not
consider English selection?
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Well?
Speaker 2 (12:44):
You can, you know, you know there's a big international
rugby league event, either a World Cup or a big
series when you get players coming out of the blue saying.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
I qualify I'm American, Greek and Jamaica.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah, exactly, exactly. You know I've been to Kingston for
five minutes. Yeah A Brimston had up. I actually spoke
to Max king I think it was before the last Yeah,
he's been for England for quite some time, but obviously
in great form. So I don't think I mean, you
(13:24):
you know Sean Wayne much better than I do. I
don't think he would just go out and throw a
handful of heritage players in. No.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I think that's something that somebody like Wayne Bennett or
Tony Smith would be more inclined to do when they
were in charge of the national side. True, yes, yeah,
and I'm not I didn't pick those two out because
they're Australian essentially, or in Tony Smith's case, were but
now his naturalized British. But I just think they have
a bigger, slightly bigger view of the game and sort
(13:54):
of feel that the NRL competition was stronger and whatnot.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
The other one.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
You go, please, you.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Got you go and Rangy Chase the twenty thirteen World Cup.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
So Chris, Yeah, here's here's another name for you. Herbie
Farmers could play fullback.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
He could a great athlete and then you know he
put him at fullback. Who takes his place in the centers.
There's not I don't think there's massive depth. There's Jake
Wall or there's Harry Newman as Toby King. There's not
huge depth in the Senates for England. So do you
strengthen you weaken one position by strengthening another. Yeah, that's
that's that's the debate. But yeah, I think there's there's
(14:45):
a few heritage buyers there. Bevan French is an interesting
one because you've got George Williams, Harry Smith, Michael Lewis,
so there's great depth in their halves. Obviously injuries we
don't know. But Bevan French can do things that those
guys can't. You know, he's a world card. So whether
he's a proud Indigenous man, whether he wants to play
(15:06):
for England or not is a separate question.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
For those who were waiting for interviews with former and
current Australian and English players, coaches, etc. Myself and John
are very busy organizing some I think when some of
these come to fruition, it's just a case of pinning
them down, isn't it, John, to do something? It will
(15:31):
be quite an impressive list. So please stick with us
on this ASHES Rugby League podcast. It's not just going
to be me and John pontificating each week. In terms
of pontification, John, I'm not normally this geeky, but I
collected some stats and I did some digging because last
(15:53):
time we were on this podcast we had a great
conversation vis a vis why England will win or not?
Can England win the series or can't they? And one
of the issues that I brought up was the fact
that the Australian players, sorry the English players, are playing
in the Australian competition and their weaknesses can get exposed
(16:13):
and Dominic Young is the is the embodiment of that already.
So there's one example. Now I'm going to come up
with my what I think is my coup de gras.
I have a theory John that England, Great Britain Wales
have struggled more since rugby union became professional, so and
(16:38):
I'm going to back that up. Now I can see
that you're nodding, so you probably do agree. But some
people argued with me when I posted this on my
socials at Rugby League Coach, on Facebook, Instagram and most
other places that the of course it's had the same
impact in Australia in terms of rugby union went profession
(17:00):
but there's just so much more depth in Australia, and
there's actually people who went between codes a couple of times,
isn't this So I've done some stats rugby union went
professional mid nineties, so versus England or Great Britain since
nineteen ninety five, So I think we'll agree that any
(17:23):
wins in nineteen ninety five and nineteen ninety seven by
England or Great Britain were probably still a relic of
the fact that rugby union had only just gone openly
professional in the first few years. The record is Australia
twenty six. Remember this is only since nineteen ninety five.
Australia twenty six wins, Great Britain three and England won,
(17:49):
so in total four wins. Okay, that is a win
every six point five games. Now many people will be
listening to this and go, oh, but you know, the
Australia had a really strong side at this time, and
et cetera, et cetera. The other statistic I want to
(18:10):
give you in that time is that New Zealand have
beaten Great Britain or England nineteen times versus England or
Great Britain's fourteen. To put this into some context, the
head to head is Australia seventy eight, Great Britain sixty two,
(18:32):
which is a win every one point twenty five matches
in history, and New Zealand fifty and England or Great
Britain seventy four. So there's been a significant dip in
English performance. England haven't beaten in Australia. So England haven't
beaten Australia since the World Cup opener in nineteen ninety five,
(18:55):
which will be thirty years almost of the day of
the first Test. Great Britain haven't beat in Australia since
two thousand and six, which will be nineteen years roughly
around about the time of the series. Impact of cross
cold converts since nineteen sixty five, so that's thirty years
(19:15):
prior to nineteen ninety five, the score between Australia and
Great Britain was thirty two ten to Australia, so still
from Australian dominance. However, there was a win for Great
Britain every three point two games. So the thing I'm
pointing to there is three a win every three point
two games, which meant some series wins against six point
(19:37):
five in the ensuing thirty years. And then people said
to me on Facebook, there's not been that many cross
cold converts. Well, there's actually been about thirty three that
played for Great Britain or England or Wales, and they
included David Watkins, John Bevan, David Bishop, Jonathan Davis, who
(19:58):
scored the winning tro in nineteen ninety four Test one,
John Devereux who happened to miss the tackle on Steve
Renoff in the nineteen ninety two World Cup Final that
separated the sides. Alan Bateman has been a regular in
the Great Britain side back in the day. Martin Martin
Offia scored a few very important tries in his career
(20:20):
and was the person that was the star of the
show whenever Great Britain or England played and marketing was
done on the back of him. There's a guy called
Billy Boston who who also is revered and has statues everywhere.
I put it to you, John, after that long whatever
(20:43):
you want to call it from me, diatribe, some people
might think it is. Yeah, monologue number one again, two questions,
England Great Britain have been somewhat ruined by this period
of the professional game in rugby union. You could argue
(21:05):
the rot set any earlier based on the statistics. And
number two, I'm going to put it to you that
there's absolutely no chance of England winning the series.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
I think there's a couple of points there.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
I definitely agree the talent gap or drain from the
nineties with rugby union game professional is massive. I mean
there's you know, there's so many players. You look at
George Ford, Owen Farrell, numerous players who either had rugby
league backgrounds or rugby league parents or grew up in
rugby league but then have started in rugby union in
(21:43):
Wales very similar. There's just a ton of talent. But
I would say that the gap, and if you look
at the history between the Kangaroos and Great Britain slash
England started in the late seventies, particularly from eighty two
with Good School's Tour, but the seventy eight series, off
the top of my head, I could be wrong, but
I think that was a three nil.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Might have been two to one to Australia.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
It was the one in England. Do you mean the
one in England or the one in Australia.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
I think seventy eight, well, eighty two was definitely in England.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, so the the previous tour, Kangaroo Tour, it was
two to one to Australia. It's the famous Dad's Army
Test at Bradford, the Second Test, when Great Britain picked
a park about the same age as you and I.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah, I think, I think I think that was when
the the gap started to go. And then obviously eighty two.
I mean there's been books written about it. At the
eighty two was g tour was Grand Bacon because the
gap was so wid and that was a phenomenal team
of Meninga, Stirling, Kenny Boyd et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
But that was a revelation I think for the English game.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Because the speed, the tactics, the way they played, the size,
the fitness. Everything was like a hang on, a massive
wake up call, and I think the next well, the
eighty six tour was the same, and then I think
what was at eighty eight and then nineteen only four,
there was definitely changes made in the British game and
they started to have some more success, didn't they. And
(23:20):
then you had your Handley, you had your scho Fields, Smarterfire,
those sort of players, and they got very close in
ninety two or ninety four, and then as you said,
rugby union went and then there's definitely less. I mean
you named some outstanding players there, but even as ones
you missed like uh Clyde.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Griffiths, Jim Mills.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
You know, yeah, there's just there's so much talent from
rugby union that has come to rugby league in the UK,
and often because of you know, racism or discrimination, but
those sort of barriers they're not they're not making that
jump anymore. And there's a lot more money in rugby
union in the UK that you can make than you
can in Super League.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
So that's definitely hurt them, without doubt. And even Tom Young.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
We mentioned Tom Young, I mean I think it was
his agent in an interview A couple of months ago.
You know he'd be open to looking at rugby union
in the future. So, yeah, it's really difficult. I don't
think people in Australia understand how difficult the market is
in the UK and that rugby union is the much
bigger sport in terms of participation, in terms of money,
(24:31):
all the all the indicators compared with rugby league.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
You started on the history journey, so get ready for
a trip down memory lane, John, and I'm going to
start it in the form of a quiz for you.
I did tell you to do some research, so and
we're going to go in reverse as we go back.
And I don't know what country will end up in
(24:57):
in a few podcasts, sorry, what era we will end
up in in a couple of podcast time. But let's
see how we go. I'm going to talk about the
October two thousand and three tour that started first first
game on the twenty fifth of October, went all the
way to twenty second of November two thousand and three. Sorry,
(25:18):
not twenty twenty three. It's been a long day, John.
How many matches were on that tour.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I'm going to say five, five or six.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
That's a pure.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Guess you were closer with six. And I always mix
up the two thousand and three and the two thousand
and one tours just you know, just with time you
think back and you get mixed up old age. Let yeah,
and if I remember rightly, the Kits the Great Britain
(25:57):
Kids were very similar in both series, and David Waite
was the coach of Great Britain in both series, and
Chris Anderson was the coach of both of both series.
For Australia, they came over for six games. Name five
Australian players from that tool. You've got half a point
(26:25):
for your first answer.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
By the way, Brad Fittler, Darren.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Hang On, hang On, Philer, Philer didn't make it? Did
you say Lockier?
Speaker 3 (26:39):
I said Lockyer?
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Uh Trump, Barrett didn't make that one. Andrew Johns Luckier
did Luckier did. I'm going to go through the names.
You've you've failed, you're off, you' you've you've failed, no points,
Phil Bailey, Danny Badia, Petro Siner receiver joking to Michael Crocker,
(27:03):
Michael de Vere, Craig Fitzgibbon, Ryan Girdley, Craig Gower, Shannon
Hegerty Robbie Kerns, Brett Comawley, how could you have not said,
Robbie Kerns. By the way, we'll go about that. We'll
go on about that in a moment. Luke Lewis, Bretamley,
Luke Lewis, Darren Lockyer, Willie Mason, Anthony Miller, Minoicello, Luke Rickittson,
Steve Simpson, Matt Singh, Darren Smith, Richard Villa, Sante, Trent Waterhouse,
(27:29):
Shane Webkeek, Craig Wing. Now pre Ash's matches. They played
France at the Starred Dalbert dumb ch in Carcasson Australia
thirty four France ten. They then played who England Knights
(27:55):
England A. So I'm going to give you that point
and who was absolutely brilliant that day and really scared
the OSSes?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
M Danny MG, I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
It was Robert Jeffrey Burrow, God rest his soul. He
was absolutely fantastic. I remember watching that game, John and
really thinking England A were going to beat them. And
one of the key facets of what Rob Burrow brought
to this game, and it's also a timely intervention for
(28:38):
us to remember Rob Burrow He just played as if
he was playing in the park. He was a free
wheeler in many cases. He wasn't your traditional organizer. He
did run horizontally with a ball if he wanted to.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Is fast.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
He was hard to catch and England played football in
that game and the OSSes were rattled. And I put
it to you that England this year you have to
do something similar rather than playing the attritional rolebust style
that OSSI's can be associated with.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah, directly, it's a good point, I think. Yeah, I
think I think that that debate has been around for
a while, hasn't it. I think Gary Schofield been a
big proponent of that. You can't play the Australian way.
You've got to go to throw the ball around more,
You've got to ask questions. And I think England well
(29:35):
for the last decade, if not longer, particularly under Wayne
Benner and Sean Wayne. They adopt that NRL grinding style
isn't It's about set completion. It's about five drives and
the kick and then taking you know, executing when you
get those opportunities.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
But Ken Ken England out Australia.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Australia, you know, in terms of those that kind of game,
like an NROL style game.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
I don't know. I think I think it's a really
it's a really.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Good debate because you can play a more expensive style
and I can definitely ask questions, but you've got to
play it to where you make almost zero errors, because
you know, if you look at you look at you know,
the Kangaroos when they're on the last World Cup. Sometimes
it's almost perfect football. So how do you how do
you how do you beat a team that's complaining at
(30:23):
ninety percent who barely drops the ball? Yeah, it's it's
a it's a great debate. Is there a Rob Burrow
esque figure for England at the moment? Is there an
X factor for I don't. That's really hard to say.
I mean maybe that's Mikey Lewis, you could say, But
at the moment, or at least on the last testing,
(30:45):
I'll playing Michael Lewis have coming.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Off the bench.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
But he he is a wonderful player and he's in great,
great format.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
On top of the it won't be Lewis Dodd. It
won't be Lewis Dodd.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Whebe you'll make Lewis Dodd.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
No. I feel so for that guard.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
I mean I think he's on six seven hundred grand
six fifty years.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
So okay, I don't feel sorry for him if he's
got to.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Go out of Cugie every day or Bonday and.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Bad luck experience or red feron Marubra, good area Maubra.
They then played Wales Australia. I want you to guess
ballpark figure the scoreline forty four points try seventy six four.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
A interesting you said that only beat the only beat
France by what what was it? Thirty two said? But
and I would imagine the Welsh team, particularly if you
think about it, some of the players that had a
vailable Canningham, they would have been a lot stronger than
(32:06):
the French.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
You've just taken one of my quiz questions. I was
going to ask you which which former Super League coach
who's coached a team to a Grand Final was playing
that day for Whale n r L coach in the
Australia side that day on that tour. Which one he
kicked the goals that day?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Yeah, easy one, Okay. The first Test on Saturday, the
eighth of November happened at the J J B Stadium, Wigan.
What's that called now jj B.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
The Brick Community Stadium.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
That was famous for something, wasn't it. Steve Ganson the
referee had a job to do quite early? What was
it famous for?
Speaker 2 (32:56):
John uh Well was famous for Adrian Morley nearly decapitating.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
From the kickoff.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
I mean, I think I think Adrian Mouley's defense is
that Robbie stepped and he wasn't known for a step,
but it was a swinging arm straight to the head,
and yeah he was off. But the funny thing isn't
that game that Great Britain played really well after that
and probably should have won that test even then for
(33:28):
seventy nine minutes and fifty seconds.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
I have been privy to people who were in the
Great Britain changing rooms that day. Apparently Adrian Morley got
ready an hour and a half before the game. That
was in his kit and Mike Forshaw was next to
him in the defensive line, and all the talk prior
to the game was just you know, keep your lying
as you run up was what people do you know?
(33:55):
And Mike Forshaw tells the tale of how he turned
to his right. I think it was all left and
there was just a big gap there and Moza just
flew out literally literally from the kickoff. So they win
that game twenty two eighteen Australia. Probably not a surprise
(34:15):
really though, the fact that Great Britain were down to
twelve men. I actually lived a stone's throw away from
that game at the time and didn't go. I watched
it on TV. I don't know why I didn't go,
but there you go. The second Test was on the
fifteenth of November two thousand and three, so only a
(34:37):
week apart, so similar to what they are doing on
this tour. And it was played at Hull Stadium which
was then called the Kingston Communications Stadium. I don't know
what it's called now, km mkm Okay, we're going to
talk referees to close this podcast, to think if we
have enough time. If not, we'll do it on the
(34:58):
next one. Who was the referee of this game and
he's been a politician since?
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Oh is it Tim Mander?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Correct? Yeah? So the first Test was a British referee,
Second Test Australian referee Tim Mander. Australia won the Test
twenty three twenty Was Adrian Mawley suspended or did he
(35:29):
play in this Test.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
I think there was a bit of skull dog he.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
I think it was you can have the Aussie ref,
but we'll have Mazi please. I think although although there
was the Queensland Rugby League chairman John McDonald on the
on the committee, there was Derek Fox from England, he
would have helped matters. And then I judge Peter Charlesworth,
So who's doubting anybody's integrity? There nobody No third Test
(36:03):
Great Britain twelve Australia eighteen, which I think is the
biggest score score separate separation. So the biggest score line
six points, the difference who scored Britain's two tries.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
You really put me on the spot here.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
I told him to research.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Sean Long.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
No, no, Sean Long kicked some goals well one actually
Chris Radlinsky and Paul school Thorpe who got man of
the match Adrian Morley still not suspended. And that was
at Huddersfield, the birthplace of the game, MacAlpine Stadium. What's
(36:56):
the Huddersfield stadium calledest.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
The John Smith Stadium.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
But I think the interesting point we look at that
what twenty two years ago, much better venues this time around,
isn't it like much more ambitious. We've got Wembley, we've
got the new Everton Stadium, Headingley, which is a great
staying but it's probably more keeping with those venues seven three.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
But a lot more ambitious. It's not grander stage.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
I'm actually really upset that the third game is a
headingly now with hindsight and being captain hindsight here because
of the ticket sales who quit REP football before the tour.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
I'm gonna give me a clue whether it's Australian or.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
British before the tour.
Speaker 4 (37:45):
So Australian, I don't know, Brad Fidler, Andrew Johns, Andrew Johnson.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
I'll give you another clue. Who was probably raging about it?
Speaker 2 (38:06):
What's gona happen?
Speaker 1 (38:07):
The raging bull Gordon Tallis. Of course, of course you're
not a morning person, John Ayer. Very quickly we'll talk
referees because you're on your own time limit now. Very
traditionally there's been a referee chosen for the first Test,
(38:32):
and then the Australians have complained in England, so I
assume we're going to get a British ref or English
ref first up, and then the ship will hit.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
The fan I think. I mean, considering how poor the
RFL is, I wouldn't be surprised if there's three English refs.
But I think it's a really interesting argument because if
you look at who is trying to will be, they'll.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Be all in our old players. You look at who
the England team will be, there'll.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Be a third n R old players, maybe maybe even
closer to a half, at least at least a third.
So theoretically they're going to be players who were used
to playing NRL rules NRL style, So it wouldn't an
NRL referee be better to manage it? We had this,
We had this last year with Samoa and last year
with Tonga, and particularly Christian Wolff was unhappy about the
(39:25):
rock speed and his team did struggles. So and look,
you know, this is what do super League referee different
to the NRL.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
And then we've got.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
We've got NRL rules, we'rerules, we've got super League rules,
and then we've got international rules.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
So yeah, and then we've got rules in France and
rules in Lee and rules in Salford and rules in.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
The usual thing. People complaining will be like, why can't
we have a French ref. Why can't we have a
Kiri ref if you could show me a good or
you know, top of their game French ref and Kwi
ref who can take change in the series?
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Great?
Speaker 2 (40:02):
But I think we just need the best referees in
the world, regardless of nationality. Referees are neutral. That's the
whole point of being a referee. So let's just get
the best refs. I don't care if they're from Woollongong,
if they're from Cambria.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
Just get the best refs.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
You've been listening to the second episode of Ash's Rugby
League podcast. You've been listening to Johnny Davidson and you
can find him at somewhere that I'm trying to put
on the screen for those who are looking. So that's
your X tag, isn't it. You're at Johnny d Davidson.
Is that the best way for people to get hold
of you, John david X.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
They can get hold of me on Twitter or on Patreon,
at Rugby League hub dot com, long Reeds, or find
me in the iepaper, in League Express and in everything
regular League, if not somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
And in a pub in lead somewhere. You can get
me at Rugby League Coach dot com dot au. You
can email me admin at Rugby League Coach dot com
dot au or on socials at Rugby League Coach on X.
I am at RL coach on the net, but if
you're type in rugby league coach, I'm sure you'll find me.
Thank you so much. We're going to work on the guests.
(41:17):
It won't just be us for the next six months,
but I hope you enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Take care,
Hello, and welcome to episode two of Ash's Rugby League Podcast.
My name is Lee Addison and I'm in Brisbane, Australia.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
And I'm John Davidson. I am an Australian living in
South Yorkshire.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Do you think people will have realized I'm an Englishman
living in Australia from that opening exchange, Johnny.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I think maybe you should have dropped some some mank
slash self audience.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Now for the for for those who have not listened
to us before, this is going to be a dedicated
Ashes Rugby League podcast. For what we both agree and
I think every listener will agree, is the most anticipated
international rugby league series that there has been in two
(00:57):
three decades, maybe so, John. The first thing I want
to talk about, and I know ascent a running order,
but I'm sort of changing that order. But I know
you'll be ready for this. I think the most pressing
thing right now is that domb Young, England's wing for
(01:19):
at least the last four years from my memory, first
choice has been dropped for the Sydney Roosters. What does
that mean for England?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I think you know, dom Young for England and I think,
you know, in the world of rugby league he is
a bit of a one off. You know, the size
of him, the height of the athleticism, the speed he's
a he's a special package. Now. I think he's always
probably had some defensive issues or maybe under the high ball,
not the safest of players, but you know, attacking wise,
(01:56):
he's brilliant. And yeah, it's it is interesting because you
think Sean Wayne would probably be reticent to pick someone
who's not playing week in weekend and if he's you know,
if he stays in his cup for for weeks and
weeks and weeks, it will definitely have an impact on
his on his selection chances. But on the flip side,
I think Wayne is a pretty loyal coach and you know,
(02:18):
Dom Young has certainly done the business for England since
I think it was the twenty twenty two World Cup
when he you know, he really caught the eye.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
What are Sean Wayne's alternatives for England.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Yeah, there's a few. There's a few wingers out there. Obviously,
Maddy Ashton Warrington's he's had a few caps for England.
There's Tom Johnson at Wakefield who's been around a long time,
was at Catalans for a while there, come back to
Wakefield this year's he's very experienced, great acrobatic finisher in
the corner. Liam Marshall at Wigan probably not as flashy,
(02:58):
but certainly get you know, great for yardage, but it
hasn't been able to really force his way into the
England sout. I mean you've got Ash Hanley at Leeds
who's been around, a long time quality player, so there
is a bit of depth. I'd say there's more depth
in the wings than perhaps some other positions for England, but.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Certainly Dom Young is probably the number one way.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I mean, Ryan Hall is still going around, but I think,
you know, his days as an England winger are gone.
And I think Tommy Makinson he's still going at Catalans.
I think, you know, I don't think he'll probably make
himself available, or if he did, I don't think England
would would go that way. So a few options and
a few players who've probably seen their best days.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
In England ship before.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
I mean Ryan Hall, phenomenal trust goring record for England
for twelve years or more.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
I think this is the area. The back three. The
Australia will probably have the edge. I'm obviously supporting England
in this Ashes series, even though I've lived in Australia
for almost two decades. But I'm going to run off
some names to you that are all fullbacks, right, because
(04:14):
the back three sometimes interchange in representative football, and I
want you to put these in order for Australia if
you can, no pressure to Desco, James Tedesco, Calen Ponger,
Dylan Edwards, and then if they get a few injuries,
(04:36):
I'm going to run off some more names for you.
Ryan Pappenhausen, the Hammer, could play at fullback. Will Kennedy
has been in great form for Cronulla and I don't
see anything that suggests he'd be playing for anybody else
so far. And I think one of the players of
(04:59):
the NROL com petition so far has been Jie Gray. Now,
just that list of names alone as not even mentioned.
I've not even mentioned Tommy Turbo, who will probably have
to play center. I would have thought possibly in representative
(05:20):
football because of the strength of the fullback position. This
is what I mean about the the backs in particular
being interchangeable. First question, can England live with any of
those combinations number two. Put those guys in order that
I've just rattled off.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
You've also just quickly you've met You've missed Latrelle and
Rye Walsh.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
I've missed Latrelle because I think he's a left center.
I don't think he's excelled as a fullback, so I
don't think he can play for Australia as a fullback.
And Ryce Walsh, I think his foot his form was
dipped considerably.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yeah, I think he's not in great form this season, definitely,
and I think probably the same for Dylan Edwards. He's
not been great this season or probably not to the
massively high standards that he's that he's been for the
last four years.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
James Tedesco is an interesting one.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I know, I know you you coached and know very
well he's been in great form and obviously had an
unbelievable career of coming towards the end. But he could
be you so wells starting fullback and I think if
he you know, if he's playing this year, he's done
the business for Australia. So yeah, there's an embarrassment of
riches at fullback. I think I'm mine biased being a
(06:42):
mainly fan, but also just his pure ability and size.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
It would be Tommy Tommy Turbo.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
But the only thing, as we all know, he's he's
made of sandpaper and you know, likes to run along
the corso. So I think if everyone's fit and firing,
you have Turbo and Latrell and the centers because they
are both unbelievable players, and then it's it's a toss
up at fullback I would say probably between Edwards and Tedesco.
(07:13):
And obviously we're you know, there's quite so many more
months in the season, so you know, I think you've
got to remember to the spine we're going to have,
well Australia will have if if everyone's fit, Nathan Cleary
at seven, you know, Edwards, Edwards at one, you've got
Yo and you've got Martin, so there's that natural connection obviously. Yes, yeah,
(07:37):
I think it's a two way for me. Ponger, Yeah,
I don't. I don't think he's at the level of
the others. He's dynamic, maybe off the bench, maybe he's
a squad player, and a few others you mentioned there
are probably below in the backing order.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Papa hasn't very similar to Ponger.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Again, he's had some some injury problems, hasn't he But
obviously an exciting player and England lived with him. That's
a great question.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
I think.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I think the fallback is probably the fullback and halves
is the best position that Stray has. The depth probably
not the same in the in the forwards. One thing
you mentioned the Hammer, I think he'll be playing for Samoa,
So okay, I think you can rule him out.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Which you know, is that your journalistic Is that journalistic knowledge?
Or have I missed something there?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
No?
Speaker 3 (08:28):
I think.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
I mean it's been talked about for a while. I
think he's come out and mentioned how he'd like to
I've not spoken to him, but I just think I
think the Samo coach Ben Gardner interviewed him a few
times last year. There's a lot of rumors about Payinghouse
and Tina and the Hammer conversations have continued and I
(08:49):
think it's all about planning for the next World Cup.
So I think it's likely that some of those players
who've played for the Kangaroos will will turn out for
somehow on the Pacific Championships this year.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
So that's that's my gut feeling.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
I think what i'd do is take the trip to
England with the Kangaroos and the jump ship. Just for
that again. For those who don't know, John is a
journalist in the UK. Freelance journalist contributes to several publications,
has his own podcast as well, called by the Balls.
So not just this Ash's Rugby League podcast. He does
(09:23):
another one and that comes out every couple of weeks,
I think, doesn't it, Johnny? And and I'm on Rugby
League Coach dot com buttay you and do the Rugby
League Coach podcast and one for Zero Tackle now as
well the Loose Kerry podcast. The I'm making a habit
(09:43):
here of asking you two questions at once, John, Right,
so I've noticed that the last fullback that played for
England has been playing standoff five eight for Saint Alan's lately.
And secondly, you threw a name at me this week
some who may be eligible for England.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I did well it just to add to that in
between when we spoke is another fallback who may be
eligible for England or could be eligible for England. Came
from and actually came from a former Great Britain line.
I won't name him today, but two names two Wigan
players who were born and bred in New South Wales
(10:27):
and came through the NRL system.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Bevan French and joy Field.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Now both of them are the Wigan books. Both of
them I'd have to check exactly, but I have been
in the UK for five to six years, which I
think you know international rules and rugby league.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
As we all know about the Nathan Fiene Granny Gate.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
They're quite fluid and I think it was that Adrian
Morley's brother played for Welsh and he's as well as
Welsh as I am.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
When was Granny Gate? You're bringing up something from the
archives there, John.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Two thousand and six. I actually give a shout out
to Rob Conlin. I think it was the website Real class.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
He did a piece on the two thousand and six
Try Nations or was it was the Try the Four Nations?
Whatever it was when the last time Great Britain beat Australia,
that famous game at the SFS, and that was Grande
Gate when Nathan Fenn said his grandmother was born in
his oil but it was actually his great grandmother. But yeah,
I'm diverting. Gy Field and Bevan French. Now Field is
(11:32):
obviously a fullback. French was a fullback who's played wing
and who's turned into a very very good six. So
would they make themselves eligible for England. I don't know.
I'm going to endeavor to find out. Woods Chill and
Wayne picked them. That's an interesting one. And when he
started he was big on the He literally said it
was a quote, I don't want heritage players, I want
(11:52):
people who are proud to play for England. And then
he backtracked on that and went with Victor Radley whose
dad is from South Yorkshire but was born in Sydney
in the Eastern suburbs. So in Radley has been great
for England. So I think if both those players came
to him said I want we want to know I
want to play for England. They've been considered and you
(12:12):
mentioned Wellsby not having a great season, so Helen's are
really struggling. He's been moved around him and Tristan Saylor
he's played in the halves before, he's played in the
halfs for England before the last World Cup. But he
is a fallback. So yeah, there's not a lot of
depth of fallback for England.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
So Tarfield, well, hang on, what's over here in Australia
is my memory serving right? But did aj Brimson not
consider English selection?
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Well?
Speaker 2 (12:44):
You can, you know, you know there's a big international
rugby league event, either a World Cup or a big
series when you get players coming out of the blue saying.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
I qualify I'm American, Greek and Jamaica.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah, exactly, exactly. You know I've been to Kingston for
five minutes. Yeah A Brimston had up. I actually spoke
to Max king I think it was before the last Yeah,
he's been for England for quite some time, but obviously
in great form. So I don't think I mean, you
(13:24):
you know Sean Wayne much better than I do. I
don't think he would just go out and throw a
handful of heritage players in. No.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I think that's something that somebody like Wayne Bennett or
Tony Smith would be more inclined to do when they
were in charge of the national side. True, yes, yeah,
and I'm not I didn't pick those two out because
they're Australian essentially, or in Tony Smith's case, were but
now his naturalized British. But I just think they have
a bigger, slightly bigger view of the game and sort
(13:54):
of feel that the NRL competition was stronger and whatnot.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
The other one.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
You go, please, you.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Got you go and Rangy Chase the twenty thirteen World Cup.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
So Chris, Yeah, here's here's another name for you. Herbie
Farmers could play fullback.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
He could a great athlete and then you know he
put him at fullback. Who takes his place in the centers.
There's not I don't think there's massive depth. There's Jake
Wall or there's Harry Newman as Toby King. There's not
huge depth in the Senates for England. So do you
strengthen you weaken one position by strengthening another. Yeah, that's
that's that's the debate. But yeah, I think there's there's
(14:45):
a few heritage buyers there. Bevan French is an interesting
one because you've got George Williams, Harry Smith, Michael Lewis,
so there's great depth in their halves. Obviously injuries we
don't know. But Bevan French can do things that those
guys can't. You know, he's a world card. So whether
he's a proud Indigenous man, whether he wants to play
(15:06):
for England or not is a separate question.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
For those who were waiting for interviews with former and
current Australian and English players, coaches, etc. Myself and John
are very busy organizing some I think when some of
these come to fruition, it's just a case of pinning
them down, isn't it, John, to do something? It will
(15:31):
be quite an impressive list. So please stick with us
on this ASHES Rugby League podcast. It's not just going
to be me and John pontificating each week. In terms
of pontification, John, I'm not normally this geeky, but I
collected some stats and I did some digging because last
(15:53):
time we were on this podcast we had a great
conversation vis a vis why England will win or not?
Can England win the series or can't they? And one
of the issues that I brought up was the fact
that the Australian players, sorry the English players, are playing
in the Australian competition and their weaknesses can get exposed
(16:13):
and Dominic Young is the is the embodiment of that already.
So there's one example. Now I'm going to come up
with my what I think is my coup de gras.
I have a theory John that England, Great Britain Wales
have struggled more since rugby union became professional, so and
(16:38):
I'm going to back that up. Now I can see
that you're nodding, so you probably do agree. But some
people argued with me when I posted this on my
socials at Rugby League Coach, on Facebook, Instagram and most
other places that the of course it's had the same
impact in Australia in terms of rugby union went profession
(17:00):
but there's just so much more depth in Australia, and
there's actually people who went between codes a couple of times,
isn't this So I've done some stats rugby union went
professional mid nineties, so versus England or Great Britain since
nineteen ninety five, So I think we'll agree that any
(17:23):
wins in nineteen ninety five and nineteen ninety seven by
England or Great Britain were probably still a relic of
the fact that rugby union had only just gone openly
professional in the first few years. The record is Australia
twenty six. Remember this is only since nineteen ninety five.
Australia twenty six wins, Great Britain three and England won,
(17:49):
so in total four wins. Okay, that is a win
every six point five games. Now many people will be
listening to this and go, oh, but you know, the
Australia had a really strong side at this time, and
et cetera, et cetera. The other statistic I want to
(18:10):
give you in that time is that New Zealand have
beaten Great Britain or England nineteen times versus England or
Great Britain's fourteen. To put this into some context, the
head to head is Australia seventy eight, Great Britain sixty two,
(18:32):
which is a win every one point twenty five matches
in history, and New Zealand fifty and England or Great
Britain seventy four. So there's been a significant dip in
English performance. England haven't beaten in Australia. So England haven't
beaten Australia since the World Cup opener in nineteen ninety five,
(18:55):
which will be thirty years almost of the day of
the first Test. Great Britain haven't beat in Australia since
two thousand and six, which will be nineteen years roughly
around about the time of the series. Impact of cross
cold converts since nineteen sixty five, so that's thirty years
(19:15):
prior to nineteen ninety five, the score between Australia and
Great Britain was thirty two ten to Australia, so still
from Australian dominance. However, there was a win for Great
Britain every three point two games. So the thing I'm
pointing to there is three a win every three point
two games, which meant some series wins against six point
(19:37):
five in the ensuing thirty years. And then people said
to me on Facebook, there's not been that many cross
cold converts. Well, there's actually been about thirty three that
played for Great Britain or England or Wales, and they
included David Watkins, John Bevan, David Bishop, Jonathan Davis, who
(19:58):
scored the winning tro in nineteen ninety four Test one,
John Devereux who happened to miss the tackle on Steve
Renoff in the nineteen ninety two World Cup Final that
separated the sides. Alan Bateman has been a regular in
the Great Britain side back in the day. Martin Martin
Offia scored a few very important tries in his career
(20:20):
and was the person that was the star of the
show whenever Great Britain or England played and marketing was
done on the back of him. There's a guy called
Billy Boston who who also is revered and has statues everywhere.
I put it to you, John, after that long whatever
(20:43):
you want to call it from me, diatribe, some people
might think it is. Yeah, monologue number one again, two questions,
England Great Britain have been somewhat ruined by this period
of the professional game in rugby union. You could argue
(21:05):
the rot set any earlier based on the statistics. And
number two, I'm going to put it to you that
there's absolutely no chance of England winning the series.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
I think there's a couple of points there.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
I definitely agree the talent gap or drain from the
nineties with rugby union game professional is massive. I mean
there's you know, there's so many players. You look at
George Ford, Owen Farrell, numerous players who either had rugby
league backgrounds or rugby league parents or grew up in
rugby league but then have started in rugby union in
(21:43):
Wales very similar. There's just a ton of talent. But
I would say that the gap, and if you look
at the history between the Kangaroos and Great Britain slash
England started in the late seventies, particularly from eighty two
with Good School's Tour, but the seventy eight series, off
the top of my head, I could be wrong, but
I think that was a three nil.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Might have been two to one to Australia.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
It was the one in England. Do you mean the
one in England or the one in Australia.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
I think seventy eight, well, eighty two was definitely in England.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, so the the previous tour, Kangaroo Tour, it was
two to one to Australia. It's the famous Dad's Army
Test at Bradford, the Second Test, when Great Britain picked
a park about the same age as you and I.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah, I think, I think I think that was when
the the gap started to go. And then obviously eighty two.
I mean there's been books written about it. At the
eighty two was g tour was Grand Bacon because the
gap was so wid and that was a phenomenal team
of Meninga, Stirling, Kenny Boyd et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
But that was a revelation I think for the English game.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Because the speed, the tactics, the way they played, the size,
the fitness. Everything was like a hang on, a massive
wake up call, and I think the next well, the
eighty six tour was the same, and then I think
what was at eighty eight and then nineteen only four,
there was definitely changes made in the British game and
they started to have some more success, didn't they. And
(23:20):
then you had your Handley, you had your scho Fields, Smarterfire,
those sort of players, and they got very close in
ninety two or ninety four, and then as you said,
rugby union went and then there's definitely less. I mean
you named some outstanding players there, but even as ones
you missed like uh Clyde.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Griffiths, Jim Mills.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
You know, yeah, there's just there's so much talent from
rugby union that has come to rugby league in the UK,
and often because of you know, racism or discrimination, but
those sort of barriers they're not they're not making that
jump anymore. And there's a lot more money in rugby
union in the UK that you can make than you
can in Super League.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
So that's definitely hurt them, without doubt. And even Tom Young.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
We mentioned Tom Young, I mean I think it was
his agent in an interview A couple of months ago.
You know he'd be open to looking at rugby union
in the future. So, yeah, it's really difficult. I don't
think people in Australia understand how difficult the market is
in the UK and that rugby union is the much
bigger sport in terms of participation, in terms of money,
(24:31):
all the all the indicators compared with rugby league.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
You started on the history journey, so get ready for
a trip down memory lane, John, and I'm going to
start it in the form of a quiz for you.
I did tell you to do some research, so and
we're going to go in reverse as we go back.
And I don't know what country will end up in
(24:57):
in a few podcasts, sorry, what era we will end
up in in a couple of podcast time. But let's
see how we go. I'm going to talk about the
October two thousand and three tour that started first first
game on the twenty fifth of October, went all the
way to twenty second of November two thousand and three. Sorry,
(25:18):
not twenty twenty three. It's been a long day, John.
How many matches were on that tour.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I'm going to say five, five or six.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
That's a pure.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
Guess you were closer with six. And I always mix
up the two thousand and three and the two thousand
and one tours just you know, just with time you
think back and you get mixed up old age. Let yeah,
and if I remember rightly, the Kits the Great Britain
(25:57):
Kids were very similar in both series, and David Waite
was the coach of Great Britain in both series, and
Chris Anderson was the coach of both of both series.
For Australia, they came over for six games. Name five
Australian players from that tool. You've got half a point
(26:25):
for your first answer.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
By the way, Brad Fittler, Darren.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Hang On, hang On, Philer, Philer didn't make it? Did
you say Lockier?
Speaker 3 (26:39):
I said Lockyer?
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Uh Trump, Barrett didn't make that one. Andrew Johns Luckier
did Luckier did. I'm going to go through the names.
You've you've failed, you're off, you' you've you've failed, no points,
Phil Bailey, Danny Badia, Petro Siner receiver joking to Michael Crocker,
(27:03):
Michael de Vere, Craig Fitzgibbon, Ryan Girdley, Craig Gower, Shannon
Hegerty Robbie Kerns, Brett Comawley, how could you have not said,
Robbie Kerns. By the way, we'll go about that. We'll
go on about that in a moment. Luke Lewis, Bretamley,
Luke Lewis, Darren Lockyer, Willie Mason, Anthony Miller, Minoicello, Luke Rickittson,
Steve Simpson, Matt Singh, Darren Smith, Richard Villa, Sante, Trent Waterhouse,
(27:29):
Shane Webkeek, Craig Wing. Now pre Ash's matches. They played
France at the Starred Dalbert dumb ch in Carcasson Australia
thirty four France ten. They then played who England Knights
(27:55):
England A. So I'm going to give you that point
and who was absolutely brilliant that day and really scared
the OSSes?
Speaker 2 (28:09):
M Danny MG, I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
It was Robert Jeffrey Burrow, God rest his soul. He
was absolutely fantastic. I remember watching that game, John and
really thinking England A were going to beat them. And
one of the key facets of what Rob Burrow brought
to this game, and it's also a timely intervention for
(28:38):
us to remember Rob Burrow He just played as if
he was playing in the park. He was a free
wheeler in many cases. He wasn't your traditional organizer. He
did run horizontally with a ball if he wanted to.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Is fast.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
He was hard to catch and England played football in
that game and the OSSes were rattled. And I put
it to you that England this year you have to
do something similar rather than playing the attritional rolebust style
that OSSI's can be associated with.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Yeah, directly, it's a good point, I think. Yeah, I
think I think that that debate has been around for
a while, hasn't it. I think Gary Schofield been a
big proponent of that. You can't play the Australian way.
You've got to go to throw the ball around more,
You've got to ask questions. And I think England well
(29:35):
for the last decade, if not longer, particularly under Wayne
Benner and Sean Wayne. They adopt that NRL grinding style
isn't It's about set completion. It's about five drives and
the kick and then taking you know, executing when you
get those opportunities.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
But Ken Ken England out Australia.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Australia, you know, in terms of those that kind of game,
like an NROL style game.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
I don't know. I think I think it's a really
it's a really.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Good debate because you can play a more expensive style
and I can definitely ask questions, but you've got to
play it to where you make almost zero errors, because
you know, if you look at you look at you know,
the Kangaroos when they're on the last World Cup. Sometimes
it's almost perfect football. So how do you how do
you how do you beat a team that's complaining at
(30:23):
ninety percent who barely drops the ball? Yeah, it's it's
a it's a great debate. Is there a Rob Burrow
esque figure for England at the moment? Is there an
X factor for I don't. That's really hard to say.
I mean maybe that's Mikey Lewis, you could say, But
at the moment, or at least on the last testing,
(30:45):
I'll playing Michael Lewis have coming.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Off the bench.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
But he he is a wonderful player and he's in great,
great format.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
On top of the it won't be Lewis Dodd. It
won't be Lewis Dodd.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Whebe you'll make Lewis Dodd.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
No. I feel so for that guard.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
I mean I think he's on six seven hundred grand
six fifty years.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
So okay, I don't feel sorry for him if he's
got to.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Go out of Cugie every day or Bonday and.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Bad luck experience or red feron Marubra, good area Maubra.
They then played Wales Australia. I want you to guess
ballpark figure the scoreline forty four points try seventy six four.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
A interesting you said that only beat the only beat
France by what what was it? Thirty two said? But
and I would imagine the Welsh team, particularly if you
think about it, some of the players that had a
vailable Canningham, they would have been a lot stronger than
(32:06):
the French.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
You've just taken one of my quiz questions. I was
going to ask you which which former Super League coach
who's coached a team to a Grand Final was playing
that day for Whale n r L coach in the
Australia side that day on that tour. Which one he
kicked the goals that day?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Yeah, easy one, Okay. The first Test on Saturday, the
eighth of November happened at the J J B Stadium, Wigan.
What's that called now jj B.
Speaker 3 (32:39):
The Brick Community Stadium.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
That was famous for something, wasn't it. Steve Ganson the
referee had a job to do quite early? What was
it famous for?
Speaker 2 (32:56):
John uh Well was famous for Adrian Morley nearly decapitating.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
From the kickoff.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
I mean, I think I think Adrian Mouley's defense is
that Robbie stepped and he wasn't known for a step,
but it was a swinging arm straight to the head,
and yeah he was off. But the funny thing isn't
that game that Great Britain played really well after that
and probably should have won that test even then for
(33:28):
seventy nine minutes and fifty seconds.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
I have been privy to people who were in the
Great Britain changing rooms that day. Apparently Adrian Morley got
ready an hour and a half before the game. That
was in his kit and Mike Forshaw was next to
him in the defensive line, and all the talk prior
to the game was just you know, keep your lying
as you run up was what people do you know?
(33:55):
And Mike Forshaw tells the tale of how he turned
to his right. I think it was all left and
there was just a big gap there and Moza just
flew out literally literally from the kickoff. So they win
that game twenty two eighteen Australia. Probably not a surprise
(34:15):
really though, the fact that Great Britain were down to
twelve men. I actually lived a stone's throw away from
that game at the time and didn't go. I watched
it on TV. I don't know why I didn't go,
but there you go. The second Test was on the
fifteenth of November two thousand and three, so only a
(34:37):
week apart, so similar to what they are doing on
this tour. And it was played at Hull Stadium which
was then called the Kingston Communications Stadium. I don't know
what it's called now, km mkm Okay, we're going to
talk referees to close this podcast, to think if we
have enough time. If not, we'll do it on the
(34:58):
next one. Who was the referee of this game and
he's been a politician since?
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Oh is it Tim Mander?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Correct? Yeah? So the first Test was a British referee,
Second Test Australian referee Tim Mander. Australia won the Test
twenty three twenty Was Adrian Mawley suspended or did he
(35:29):
play in this Test.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
I think there was a bit of skull dog he.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
I think it was you can have the Aussie ref,
but we'll have Mazi please. I think although although there
was the Queensland Rugby League chairman John McDonald on the
on the committee, there was Derek Fox from England, he
would have helped matters. And then I judge Peter Charlesworth,
So who's doubting anybody's integrity? There nobody No third Test
(36:03):
Great Britain twelve Australia eighteen, which I think is the
biggest score score separate separation. So the biggest score line
six points, the difference who scored Britain's two tries.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
You really put me on the spot here.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
I told him to research.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
Sean Long.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
No, no, Sean Long kicked some goals well one actually
Chris Radlinsky and Paul school Thorpe who got man of
the match Adrian Morley still not suspended. And that was
at Huddersfield, the birthplace of the game, MacAlpine Stadium. What's
(36:56):
the Huddersfield stadium calledest.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
The John Smith Stadium.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
But I think the interesting point we look at that
what twenty two years ago, much better venues this time around,
isn't it like much more ambitious. We've got Wembley, we've
got the new Everton Stadium, Headingley, which is a great
staying but it's probably more keeping with those venues seven three.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
But a lot more ambitious. It's not grander stage.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
I'm actually really upset that the third game is a
headingly now with hindsight and being captain hindsight here because
of the ticket sales who quit REP football before the tour.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
I'm gonna give me a clue whether it's Australian or.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
British before the tour.
Speaker 4 (37:45):
So Australian, I don't know, Brad Fidler, Andrew Johns, Andrew Johnson.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
I'll give you another clue. Who was probably raging about it?
Speaker 2 (38:06):
What's gona happen?
Speaker 1 (38:07):
The raging bull Gordon Tallis. Of course, of course you're
not a morning person, John Ayer. Very quickly we'll talk
referees because you're on your own time limit now. Very
traditionally there's been a referee chosen for the first Test,
(38:32):
and then the Australians have complained in England, so I
assume we're going to get a British ref or English
ref first up, and then the ship will hit.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
The fan I think. I mean, considering how poor the
RFL is, I wouldn't be surprised if there's three English refs.
But I think it's a really interesting argument because if
you look at who is trying to will be, they'll.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Be all in our old players. You look at who
the England team will be, there'll.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
Be a third n R old players, maybe maybe even
closer to a half, at least at least a third.
So theoretically they're going to be players who were used
to playing NRL rules NRL style, So it wouldn't an
NRL referee be better to manage it? We had this,
We had this last year with Samoa and last year
with Tonga, and particularly Christian Wolff was unhappy about the
(39:25):
rock speed and his team did struggles. So and look,
you know, this is what do super League referee different
to the NRL.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
And then we've got.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
We've got NRL rules, we'rerules, we've got super League rules,
and then we've got international rules.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
So yeah, and then we've got rules in France and
rules in Lee and rules in Salford and rules in.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
The usual thing. People complaining will be like, why can't
we have a French ref. Why can't we have a
Kiri ref if you could show me a good or
you know, top of their game French ref and Kwi
ref who can take change in the series?
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Great?
Speaker 2 (40:02):
But I think we just need the best referees in
the world, regardless of nationality. Referees are neutral. That's the
whole point of being a referee. So let's just get
the best refs. I don't care if they're from Woollongong,
if they're from Cambria.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
Just get the best refs.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
You've been listening to the second episode of Ash's Rugby
League podcast. You've been listening to Johnny Davidson and you
can find him at somewhere that I'm trying to put
on the screen for those who are looking. So that's
your X tag, isn't it. You're at Johnny d Davidson.
Is that the best way for people to get hold
of you, John david X.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
They can get hold of me on Twitter or on Patreon,
at Rugby League hub dot com, long Reeds, or find
me in the iepaper, in League Express and in everything
regular League, if not somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
And in a pub in lead somewhere. You can get
me at Rugby League Coach dot com dot au. You
can email me admin at Rugby League Coach dot com
dot au or on socials at Rugby League Coach on X.
I am at RL coach on the net, but if
you're type in rugby league coach, I'm sure you'll find me.
Thank you so much. We're going to work on the guests.
(41:17):
It won't just be us for the next six months,
but I hope you enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Take care,
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.