January 16, 2025 • 42 mins
In this episode, Paul is asked to explain why the sizing rules for the common grounding electrode conductor per 250.64(D)(1) and how it applies when 250.66 is on the table. For example, sizing the common GEC when the grounding electrodes are ground rods. Well, in this episode you get the facts.
Listen as Paul Abernathy, CEO, and Founder of Electrical Code Academy, Inc., the leading electrical educator in the country, discusses electrical code, electrical trade, and electrical business-related topics to help electricians maximize their knowledge and industry investment.
If you are looking to learn more about the National Electrical Code, for electrical exam preparation, or to better your knowledge of the NEC then visit https://fasttraxsystem.com for all the electrical code training you will ever need by the leading electrical educator in the country with the best NEC learning program on the planet.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/ask-paul-national-electrical-code--4971115/support.
Listen as Paul Abernathy, CEO, and Founder of Electrical Code Academy, Inc., the leading electrical educator in the country, discusses electrical code, electrical trade, and electrical business-related topics to help electricians maximize their knowledge and industry investment.
If you are looking to learn more about the National Electrical Code, for electrical exam preparation, or to better your knowledge of the NEC then visit https://fasttraxsystem.com for all the electrical code training you will ever need by the leading electrical educator in the country with the best NEC learning program on the planet.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/ask-paul-national-electrical-code--4971115/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Saw what up?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Everybody, Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul, the
podcast where you get to send me Paul Abernathy anything
you want about the National Electrical Code. I will break
it down and if I answer in an email, you
may get selected to be used on an upcoming podcast,
much like today's podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
So I'm gonna thank everybody for joining me.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Hopefully you've all been joining me over on Coffee Hour
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(01:14):
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And if you join the show, it's awesome to have
(01:36):
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(01:59):
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Speaker 2 (02:16):
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Say? Yes. All it's doing is put in a link.
That's it a.
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Little icon in a link so you can click it.
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Rather than go to the app store, just go to
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Speaker 3 (02:47):
We only want electricians that are going to use it.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
So that's why when you put something on an app store,
Apple Store or whatever, then anybody can download it, not
you know, we're not about the money for that. We're
not charging for it, so we don't care that there's
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people that are in the electrical business to use it.
So better to get it from us directly at our
(03:09):
website than it is to go searching through that garbage anyway.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
None of that.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
All right, today's episode, we're gonna be answering a question
that was submitted to the Let's ask Paul. That's a
great question. I've been getting questioned this question for decades. Okay,
I've been getting it, not that I serve on code
Making Panel five, but it's just a kind of question
that we typically get all the time and they're like, look,
(03:36):
I need you, I need some clarity for this.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
So that's what we're gonna do today. We're gonna bring
some clarity.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
So what we're talking about is very specific and we're
gonna be looking and talking about two sixty four, but
we're gonna be looking at D one and D one
is that common grounding electrode conductor and taps. So that
is where you may have You might have a CT.
You come out of the sea into a wireway, you
(04:01):
come out of the wireway, you drop down into two
separate service panels right beside each other. And now you're like, Okay,
I know that I have to run from the services
I have to run a connection to, and I have
multiple options, but I have to go from the grounded conductor.
I have to connect to the grounding electrode. Now, whatever
your grounding electrode may be, whether it's a uphur, whatever
(04:24):
it may be in ground steel, whether you know whether
it may be a chemical type of electrode, rods plates,
whatever your electrode, you fur, whatever it may be, you
have to get that connection and make make that connection.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Okay. And so.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
There's this one aspect that seems to always get submitted
to me that seems to be quite confusing for people.
So we're going to clear it up today, and that is, Hey, Paul,
what is And let me let me read you the
question kind of the paraphrase out the question It asks
this question. It says, Paul, thanks for your podcast. I
love listening to it, and I'm loving Coffee Hour.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
In the mornings. Whoops, there you go. Let me give
a shout out.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
He's watching our Coffee Hour and he's listening to our podcasts.
Sweet all right, he says, I understand that in the
twenty twenty three edition of The National, and he also
gave code reference to the what cycle beautiful dude, you're
on it? He said in the twenty twenty three and
see it says that common grounding electroconductor is to be
sized based from the sum of the ungrounded conductors for
(05:31):
one phase or set of the supplied conductors to the
disconnecting service.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Disconnecting means.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
However, it does not stipulate anywhere in there of the
type of electrode that's in question, whether it's a.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Upher or ground rods.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
My question is, does two fifty sixty six A apply and
I not have to size my grounding electrode conductor any
larger than A six?
Speaker 3 (05:58):
If I have ground rods?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Do I have to size the grinding electroconductor based on
the summation?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
I love how it uses these big words that I
like to use.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Summation of the on grounded conductors at the CT or
at the supply side of the service. Thanks in advance.
I hope this is clear. I look forward to hearing
your answer on the next podcast. Okay, thank you very
much for that question. Very detailed, very concise. So what
(06:29):
he's asking he says, Okay, so for those out there
that have your codebook, if you go look at two
fifty sixty four D one now D for example, it
says when you have buildings structures with multiple disconnecting means
in separate enclosures.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Okay, so that's what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
So if I had to paint you this mental picture,
I've got a CT which is basically just you know,
basically you have cts. Current transformers go over top of
the conductors so they can actually read how much power
you're using big CT cabinets, not service equipment. It's put
in there by the utility, or you may install it
for the utility, but the conductor simply just passed through it. Okay,
(07:10):
and then they're going to go into let's say a
wire way, it's still service conductors still on the supply
side code allows us to bond all those metal parts
to the grounded conductor to fifty one two.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
So we're bonded. Everything's good.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
But then it comes down into two separate service disconnects, okay,
and it drops off of that. Okay, So it comes
down and it hits your service distinect.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
So now you.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
You're running your your grounding electrode system for this building.
Now there are three different options here. One, obviously D
one we're gonna be talking about. D two is where
you could run an individual grinding electro conductor from each
individual service enclosure straight to your electrode whatever it may be.
(07:56):
You can run it that's called the individual one from
each one it's fine. Or you could do a common
location that is D three, which means you can make
a connection over in the CT right.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Well, yeah, I know.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
The hjs don't like that shit. Utilities don't like that sometimes.
But again that's the code says you can make that
connection to the grounder conductor anywhere on a supply side
up to it, including in the service disconnect. But you
can do it on the supply side, so it could
be done in a CT, could be done in a
meter h all those type of things.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
I know they don't like it, but it could be done.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
But anyway, common location would be taking your grounding electro
conductor out of a common location ahead of your service
distinct like maybe out of that wireway connected to the
grounder conductors or out of the CT or whatever.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
So you have options, okay, but we're.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Focusing on today is the one that does the common
grinding electro conductor and the taps. So well, this one
painting you a mental picture. You've got your CT, and
if you're in your mind, you're like, I can't.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Picture what a CT is.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Just think of a big box that the conductors from
utility come into.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
They run through these things that look like.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Doughnuts, okay, and it measures the intensity of the power
in order to be able to charge you money.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
It runs through those and then over to.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
The wireway where then it splits off and you can
actually tap onto it and do two separate service equipment.
You get what I'm saying, Okay, that's all I want
you to pint that mental picture now from the service equipment,
which is two or more side by side. The disconnecting
means for the service there's separate enclosures side by side.
(09:29):
I need to get grounding electrodes. I need to have
ground electro conductors for this inclosure. Not I have those
other options, but we're going to go with the one
that does the common.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
And what's the common? Well, the common one is pretty simple.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
You take one conductor properly sized, run it underneath of
both of those service disconnects, and then continue it onto
whatever your electrode may be. So your electrode may be
a ufert, your electrode may be a water pipe ground
that is supplemented by some other electrode in two fifty
to fifty two, A two through a seven or whatnot.
(10:06):
So you're basically it's one common conductor that's going underneath.
It's not necessarily going up in any of the panels,
which it could, but it's not. It's just running underneath.
Let's just say for simplicity's sake, and it goes to
whatever your electrode is. Whatever the electrode is, okay, And
this is also good for exam prep folks, So if
you're out there thinking about exam prep and how people
(10:27):
can ask you questions, this is important. Okay, what it says,
let's read what it says. In two fifty sixty four
D one it says common grounding electrode conductor and taps.
It says a common grinding electrode conductor. And again that's
(10:47):
the one that we run underneath the other panels and
run it straight to the Electrodekay, that's common to both
of the enclosures. It's going to be common to both
the enclosures. Both enclosures are going to connect to it
with a with a tap, if you will. So it's
common shall be size in accordance with two fifty dots
sixty six. Now it says two fifty outs sixty six.
(11:10):
It doesn't say table two fifty douts sixty six. It
just says in accordance with two fifty dots sixty six.
And the reason for that is by making a reference
to two fifty dots sixty six, it's also making it
clear that it's not just table two fifty outs sixty
six it's applicable here, but also the two fifty dots
sixty six, A, B, and C, which many people call exceptions.
(11:34):
They're not exceptionskay, they're allowances.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
They're right there. They're permitted to be able to usize it.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
This is the example of two fifty dots sixty six
A is where it says that it doesn't have to
be larger than the six copper or four aluminum to
a rod piper plate. Okay, if you're not familiar with that,
just grab your codebook, go over and look at two
fifty dots sixty six and then go past the table
and look at a it's connections to rod piper played electrodes,
(12:03):
and it gives you some provisions in there. And you
notice you get to the last sentence and it'll say,
shall not be required to be larger than the six
copper or four lumum. Okay, and we're not going to
talk about the other conductor that's listed there, not going
to reference it, not going to give it any credence
if you will. I'm just not going to do it.
Say it keeps me out of trouble, all right. So
(12:25):
that's what we're dealing with right now. You'll notice that
in the code it does not say anything specific about
the type of electrode. It doesn't get into that, right,
It's just talking about the common grounding electroc conductor and
its associated taps.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
So this is why it says it.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
This way, and people get confused with the verbage, and
I've had electrical inspectors get extremely confused with this verbage.
It says again, I'm going to read it so the
context of reading the whole thing, and then I'll stop
again and we'll redo it again if we need to,
but we need to. Repetition is important for me. Redundancy
is important. But you don't like that, then this is
not the podcast for you, my friend, because I do
(13:07):
things redundantly over and over again to hammer things home. Okay,
it says, a common grinding electro conductor. Hold on, I
got my screen installed upon me, he says, a common
grinding electro conductor and grinding electro conductor taps shall be installed.
The common grinding electric conductor shall be installed in accordance
(13:30):
with two six six based on the sum of the
circular mill area of the largest ungrounded conductors of each
set of conductors that supplies the disconnecting means. Okay, so
let me kind of paint you that mental picture now.
So let's say that I have a Let's say that
(13:53):
I have a CT again. I can just think of
it as conductor's passing through the CT. It's just the
way of the utility for big services, you don't have
this on residential. You just have a meter and you
put the meter in there and that's how they read
your consumption here.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Usually if you have a CT, it'll be just the CT.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
The conductors kind of basically passed through from point A
to point B, and then the CT supplies a meter
that's going to tell you how much they're going to
charge you. Amuff Okay, And if it's commercial, they look
at things like power factors and all this other kind
of stuff based on the equipment that they have connected
to the CT makes sense. So just for you and me,
you just box passing through. So it's where the utility
(14:29):
conductors will come in and then they change over to
be able to get to your service equipment.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
So in this case, let's say it's coming out of
the top of the CT, and it's a double lugged CT,
so there's two lugs on the top, so it's basically
coming out the top and one conductor for let's say
C phase. I'm just throwing numbers out there. Ce phase
it says three phase. Let's say C phase. One of
the conductor's out of the double lug feeds one panel
(14:58):
and then the other lug feed a second panel side
by side. So basically it's two conductors coming out of
C phase C okay or leg C. It wouldn't matter
whether it's just one twenty two forty and you have
leg A and B black and red. Let's say again,
colors aren't required. But just I'm trying to paint you
this mental thing. It's the it's the conductors that are
(15:19):
coming out of the other side of the CT that
is going to be supplying two separate service enclosures, okay,
and disconnecting means you with me.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
So now when it says the summation, basically on C,
you've got two conductors coming out of the LOG and
they're probably gonna be the same size three odd. Let's say, okay, well,
or lets make it easy for a two to fifty
KC meal.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
Let's make it easy.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
So two fifty casey meal one two fifties feeding one
enclosure in the other two fifties feeding the other enclosure.
Perfectly fine, Right, there's no overcurrent protection ahead of all this.
This is a CT, this is utility supplying it. So
it's still service conductors coming in. So you have two
separate panels, so one one panels being fed by a
two fifty, the other panels being fed by two fifty.
(16:04):
But the summation, as it said, of the conductors that
are coming out of the CT would be five hundred
ksemil to five hundreds because that is the set. Let's
say we're just doing the C phase. You with me, okay,
keep it, keep it simple. So it's coming out of
the CT, hitting a wireway that's connected to it, and
(16:27):
then dropping down with the raceways maybe nipples, we call
them nipples. I hate the term nipple, but anyway, it's
a raceway coming down into each set of service enclosures. Oh,
by the way, the image that I'm painting in your mind,
you will be able to watch this on the Coffee
Hour on January seventeenth edition. In twenty twenty five, the
(16:52):
seventh January seventeenth Coffee Hour, we will be going over this.
So for this gentleman, I'm also you know, adding this
to my explanation for Coffee Hour. So again, if any
of this explanation confused you, you do your favorite go look
for Coffee Hour. It talks about the grounding electrode conductors.
And go specifically look for the one that's from January seventeenth.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
Okay, just so you know, all right, So in this scenario,
you take the summation because that's what the code said, right,
code said.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
It says, based on the sum of the circular mill
area of the largest ungrounded conductor's plural of each set.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
So I'm just taking one set set. I'm saying C.
That's it.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
They see one set, whether it's paralleled, and you have two,
whether it's parallel, and you have three set, I'm just
taking C. That's it, and I'm gonna add that summation.
So in our case, we had five hundred thousand circular mills,
or we had two fifty running to each individual service,
but collectively the sum of those ungrounded conductors that are
(18:02):
supplying the disconnecting means the sum is what five hundred KCML.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
You with me, Okay?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Now, it says if the service engine conductors connect directly
to an overhead service conductor, service drop or underground service
conductors or service lateral like not through the CT like
like they go up on a weatherhead and you have
a bunch of risers that come up and they connect
up there, then Basically, it says the common grounding electroc
(18:30):
conductors shall be sized in accordance with Table two fifty
sixty six Note one and all that note says that
if there's multiple sets that are coming, basically it's the
equivalent area of the largest service instance conductor shall be
determined by this summation of the area of the corresponding
conductors of each set.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
So again, if you had six sets, then you just
take all of phase.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
C, okay, and add up all those.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
So if I had a parallel four sets, then I
would just of two fifty. Then it'd be one million
circular mills because I just take the four from C
phase that's it, just one set, that's it, right, and
use that and then I then I go to two
fifty sixty six to the table and work it from there. Okay,
if that makes sense. Okay, So I just wanted to
(19:22):
paint that mental picture. So that's what you do, and
that's what you're going to do.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Guys.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
If you're connecting on the supply side, if you're going
to be using the many options that you have, okay,
if you're going to be using D two for example,
then you're just going individually out to each electrode, and
that's probably going to be dictated by whatever you're running
to the electrode. Okay, for example, ground rods six, you
(19:47):
for four, that type of thing. But if you were
using one of the other electrodes, okay, then you know
you have you could have you'd have a summation issue.
But D two is specific perfectly talking about individual grinding electroconductors.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
Okay, and again we're gonna talk about that on coffee hour.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
It's not going to be the question today, but we'll
be talking about on coffee hour tomorrow, don't worry. And
then the common location would be like making the connection
up into the panel, right, I mean up into the
wireway or making a pan up into the CT or
somewhere on the supply side at common location Okay, it's
like in a wire way or other accessible enclosure on
(20:29):
the supply side. That's exactly what it says. Then you're
gonna have to use this summation like we.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Just talked about.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Okay, all right, uh, but there are other things that
we do want to point out because there are allowances, okay,
there are allowances for rod piper plates, there are allowances
for U first and in that type of thing, so
in rings. So relax, and we're gonna cover those things
(20:55):
on another episode. Right now, We're just gonna be covering
D one right now. That is how you size that now.
So if we were going to let's just say it
was a water pipe ground, right, and we were going
to do this common. So this is one conductor that's
running underneath the two service disconnects, and it's going to
connect to the water pipe ground let's say five feet
a point of entry.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Let's just keep it consistent, right.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
That conductor is going to be based on the summation
of the conductors that are ahead of the service disconnects, Okay,
which is that five hundred we got even though each
individual was fed by two fifty, but they come from
the same lug. It's a double lug, so summation would
be five hundred KC mel okay, And that's how we'd
(21:39):
size that common.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Now, what about now?
Speaker 2 (21:44):
The question that people ask is say, okay, I get that, Paul,
And it doesn't tell me the type of electrode that
we're using. And for an exam it may not. And
that's what you got to remember. If it does not,
then you're going to do just like we did the summation,
and you're going to go to the table once you
get your animation. But what if they tell you it's
a ground rod, What if they tell you it's a pipe,
(22:06):
or what did they tell you it's a plate? Well,
that's why it made reference to two fifty dots sixty six,
because not just the table, because it means you get
to use all of two fifty dots sixty six. And
because of that, in the first charging statement of two
fifty dots sixty six, this is what it says. It
says the size of the grounding electroconductor and bonding jumpers.
(22:27):
Again that's from electrode electrode for example, UH for connecting
the grounding electrodes shall not be smaller than given in
table two fifty dots sixty six, except as permitted in
two fifty dots sixty six A through D. So that's
what so many people get lost at this. Why does
(22:47):
it reference to fifty dots sixty six and two fifty
dots sixty four D one And the reason for that
is it wants you to be able to use all
of two fifty dots sixty six, and this is where
I bring that old saying you can't put ten pounds
of crap in a five pound bag. So if if
you go look at two fifty dot sixty six A,
it says that if the grounding electroconductor or bonding jumper
(23:09):
connected to a single or multiple rods, piper plates, or
any combination thereof are as described in two fifty fifty two,
A five or a seven. Okay, that's describing the different
types of electrodes. By the way, does not core extend
onto other types of electrodes that require a larger conductor.
(23:30):
That means you can't go from a ground rod and
then continue up to a upher to complete your connection.
If you were supplementing, then that would be requiring a
larger conductor.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
So you have to be stopping.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Okay, you have to be ending at the rods piper
plates to be able to use this, okay. Can't extend
on to other electrodes that would require that grounding electroc
conductor to be actually larger.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
You can't do that. So with that said, it says.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
The grounding electroconductor shall not be required to be larger
than a six copper or for aluminum or that other
conductor we won't talk about.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
So we learned in a coffee hour on the sixteenth
of January that we probably are not going to use
aluminum because if we're going to a rod piper plate,
probably it's going to be within eighteen inches of the
earth outside. And of course we have some rules that
we have to follow that we can't do right, and
(24:30):
we're like, okay, well, I can't follow those rules because
those are problems with two fifty dot sixty four and
I don't want to get into that, to excuse me,
two ten dot yeah, sixty four A. I don't want
to get into that with aluminum or that other conductor
that is not copper or aluminum.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Well, it's more luminant than it is copper, but that's for.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
A that's for a different episode that I won't be
doing because I don't want people's feelings to get hurt.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
So anyway, so that's what we've got, okay.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
So that's why it references to fifty dots sixty six
because I can use two fifty out sixty six A,
B or C.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
We're applicable.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
So the answer is question, if I have a five
thousand amp service and I have the conductors coming out
of the CT shoot man, it could be two million
circular mills feeding two large service disconnects. If I run
ground rods, which I can, and I put two ground
(25:37):
rods six feet apart for this service, I can use
the same two for all of these service disc connects.
By the way, if they're grouped in the location their
meet the requirements at two thirty dots seventy A one,
they're all grouped in A two and all that stuff
in two thirty dots seventy one and seventy two. If
I meet all those rules and I put two ground
rods in, I can bring all of those. I'm just
(26:00):
running that common one all the way underneath all of them.
Not more than six service disconnects grouped in one location.
I'm gonna running underneath, and i'm gonna take it to
my ground rods, and i'm gonna run a six gauge.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
I'm done.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Because of the allowance, the permissive allowance into fifty sixty
six A, it doesn't matter what size those service conductors are.
It doesn't matter about the summation math that people start
blowing their mind in two fifty sixty.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Four D one.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
If I'm using ground rods, doesn't have to be larger
than a six. Again, you can't put ten pounds of
crap in a five pounds back. It is what it
is and it's acceptable. You may not like it, you
may not feel right about it. The same guy that
doesn't feel right about putting a forty amp overcurrent device
on a fourteen gauge because the code says you can
for HVAC or a motor application. It doesn't feel right,
(26:54):
but the code is what it is. Okay, same thing
for a you fur. If I'm going to run a
common underneath these panels and I'm going to run it
to a upher, what does it say to fifty sixty six?
Speaker 3 (27:06):
B says the same concept.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
If you're not extending this grinding electro conductor onto another
electrode that would be required to have a larger grinding electrode,
like continuing onto a water pipe, which is not listed here,
then it doesn't have to be larger than a four copper.
Notice it doesn't give those other types of grinding electroconductor
of material. It only gives one, and that is a
four gauge. Okay, it's not required to be larger than
(27:32):
a four gauge copper. Now let me answer one question
that people bring up. Could it be smaller than these?
Absolutely it could be. You're not forced to use a
B or C. You could use table two fifty dot
sixty six if the size of the conductors in two
(27:53):
fifty sixty four D one, or if it dictates that
you have.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
A situation where your conductors are smaller.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
For example, if you look at table two fifty dots
sixty six, notice it says copper two or smaller. Then
notice that it says the size of the grinding electric
conductor is an eight gauge. So even if it was rods,
you're not required to be larger than the six. But
could you be smaller than a six? Absolutely you could be.
You could be an eight. Now, as we talked about
(28:24):
on Coffee Hour, you got to be careful because once
it becomes an eight, for example, it doesn't matter whether
it's subteto physical damage or not.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Now you have to protect it in a raceway.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
And in my advice on that episode was to use
schedul ADPBC because you don't want to use any metallic
raceway that may be a Ferris metal.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Then you got all those problems that you're gonna have.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
To deal with with bonding right and at each end
of that, And that's something that we'll get into at
some point in two fifty dot sixty four E where
we have to worry about Ferris medals and things like that.
You don't have to worry about that and schedul ADPBC baby,
So just get or done and move on. That type
of scenario. You get me, don't make things work smarter,
not harder. I'm just saying, all right, So now we
(29:07):
know that, for example, we could use a common which
goes underneath both of the all of our service disconnects
and goes to our electrode. If it's a rod piper plate,
it does not have to be larger than a six
copper four aluminum. But again you got those issues about
terminating within eighteen inches of the earth, so be careful.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
With that one.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Okay, typically it's going to be copper. Then you don't
have to worry.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
So we got that.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Let's see here, if it is a uphur, then it
doesn't have to be larger than a four running underneath
all those services going down to the eupher. You don't
have to supplement a u fur Okay, so we're good.
You have to supplement a ground rod unless you can
prove it's twenty five homes or less, so that's why
you have two. So that extra ground rod is basically
(29:55):
supplementing the first ground rod, and together the act is one.
He heard me tell you that the grounding electric conductor
goes to the first rod. The other one is the
requirement by the code if you can't prove twenty five
ms or less. So basically it's supplementing the first one,
and they act as one.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
So that's why it's.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
It's unbroken to the first one except for some allowances
for cad welding or irreversible crimp. Other than that, it's continuous.
But when you go to the second electrode, that's just
a bombing jumper. So you put two separate connectors on
your ground rod and you go to it. And now
if you want to save a connector an acorn, then
you just make it unbroken. You loop through the one
and you go to the other one rod six feet away,
(30:33):
and you just save yourself a connector.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
But that's not required, all right, So I'm all over
the place. I'm an add kind of guy.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
So that common grounding electro conductor that's running underneath your
panels over to your electrode. Done, we showed you how
to size it if it's like a water pipe ground
which then you have to use the summation of the
size of the sets of your service conductors on supply
side of your service disconnect. We showed you that, and
(31:01):
if that confuses you, join me on the seventeenth of January.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
I'll explain it, show you an illustration.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
But then we also explain that well, if it is
one of the ones that are listed rod piper plate,
A uphur or ring, then you have allowance in two
fifty out sixty six A, B or C.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
If it's any of the.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Other electrodes other than the ones that are in two
fifty out sixty six A, B or C, then you
go right to the table and you're going to base
it on the summation. Okay, Now, with all that said,
let's skip on to the part that's the tap part,
because that's the part that people are Okay, so now
I've got my services there, I've got my disconnects there,
(31:40):
separate enclosures, not more than six, all grouped, all happy, happy.
I need to connect from those enclosures down to the
common grounding electrode conductor. Okay, So here's what the code
says under two fifty OT sixty four D one, and
we're going to the second paragraph. It says a grinding
electroe can conductor TAP, and again that is not the
(32:03):
common that's going from the enclosure to connect onto the common.
It says shall extend to the inside of each disconnecting enclosure,
so it needs to go from the common and come
up into the disconnecting means enclosure.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Okay, so he noticed.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
It says it shall extend to each inside each disconnecting
means enclosure. Each It says the grinding electro conductor TAP
shall be sized at in accordance with two fifty sixty
six for the largest service entrance or feeder conductors serving
the individual enclosure. So now you're not basing this on
(32:43):
the total summation like it's all of the conductors that
are coming out of.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Your CT into the wireway.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
You're only sizing what is supplying the service disconnect of
each individual enclosure individually, Okay, and so that conductor that's
going to be going from that service disconnect the grounded
terminal bus down to the common conductor that you ran
underneath it. That is size based on the conductors that
are supplying the service disconnect for that separate individual enclosure. Okay,
(33:16):
And it says to fifty sixty six again rather than
a table. Why do you think it does that, Because
if you've got a common grounding electro conductor that's only
six gauge due to going to ground rods, then there's
no reason for that tap to be any larger than that, right,
But could it be potentially smaller.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Than the six?
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Absolutely it could be because I do have the option
to use the table, you get me. That's why they
write it that way. That's why they didn't specifically just
send you to the table. Okay, all right, okay, So anyway,
so it says, in accordance with two fifty outs sixty six,
for the largest service entrance or feeder conductor that is
serving that individual enclosure, it says, the tap conductor shall
(34:02):
be connected to the common grinding electro conductor by one
of the following means, not all of them. One of
the following means in such a manner that the common
grinding electrode conductor remains.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Without a splice.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Okay, so we just start that common one underneath the panels.
It just starts out of nowhere. It just starts and
runs underneath them and then continues on to the electrode.
So by making the connection that tap from the enclosure
service enclosure, each individual one down to it, I have
to do it so that it doesn't splice that common
(34:40):
It can't splice it or break it anyway. That was continuous.
It has to make a connection to it. Now, how
can we make that connection so that doesn't mess with
the integrity of that common grinding electrode conductor. Well, it
says we can exothermic. Well that if we want so,
we can position it up and do that. I'm probably
(35:01):
not going to do that, but you can. Next it says, well,
you can use connectors listed as grounding and bonding for
grounding and bonding equipment. Well, that's an example of terminations.
In two fifty eight we get a nice little list
of different acceptable methods. Okay, but I'm going to tell
you the one that people mostly use here, because remember
(35:21):
the tap doesn't have to be unspliced obviously, it's coming
from the enclosure and splicing onto the unbroken common grinding election. Right,
So most of the people we just use a split bolt,
a split bolt listed for grounding and bonding applications, stamped
as such.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
It's listed, it's got its mark on it. It's good
to go. They just use split bolts. So yes, they
can be split bolt.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
The taps can be split bolt to the common grinding
electro conductor, and you're not breaking the common grinding electroductor.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
You're not breaking it, okay.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
The third method for doing this is where it's a
connections to.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
An aluminum or copper.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Bus bar not less than a quarter of an inch
thick and two inches wide, And of course the length
of it has to be long enough to accommodate all
the connections that you may be making to it.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
Okay, So that goes without saying.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
If you have other connections, you need to make sure
you have a number of terminations that is actually necessary
to make those connections, okay.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
So again the.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Length of it's dependent on your number of connections, but
the width of it is dictated two inches wide, and
the thickness of this aluminum bar or copper bus bar
is a quarter of an inch thick, which is probably
standard for any of those bus bars that.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
You would buy for this type of application.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
They're very common to use in data centers on the
wall when you're creating this grid or you're used outside.
Very common to buy these bus bars that have their
own little feet that you mount and that kind of
raises and elevates it off the wall.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
That type of thing very common.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
And it tells you that that bus bar shall be
securely fastened and shall I'll be installed in an accessible location.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Ain't no hiding that bus bar, folks. Accessible.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
It says connections shall be made to that bus bar
from your grinding electroconductor. It shall be made by a
listed connector or by exothermic welding process. It says if
aluminum bus bar are used, the installation shall comply with
two fifty sixty four A. And that's just a reminder
that not to make it so that it is within
eighteen inches of the earth.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
That's all it's making a reference to.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
I love how the code does that. Some people hate it,
but I love how it does it. Okay, just makes
everything clean and clear. Okay, So just kind of one
of those things. Now, if you have link and you
remember NFPA and you subscribe to link, it's like one
hundred and twenty bucks a year to get so much information.
(37:50):
They have a really nice enhanced content illustration. It's really
nice and it basically shows a picture of it and
the connections and how it does and all that kind
of things.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
So encourage you. If you have it, go look at it.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
It is underneath D one and it kind of shows
an example of what I've pretty much painted you a
mental picture of. And of course we'll look at it
as well when we come to.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
The coffee hour.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Now, I will remind you the one that's shown in
the picture does not dictate the type of electrode.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
And that's important.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Because if it doesn't dictate the type of electrode, then
you're going to be going to wear You're be going
to the tables. You're not going to be going to
like two fifty sixty six A for ride Piper play
because they did not tell you the type of electrode.
That's so important guys for taking exams. If they don't
tell you the type of electrode, and you're going to default,
okay at the table based on the summation of conductors. Okay,
(38:46):
You're not going to be using a B or c
in sixty six because it doesn't make a reference to
the type of electrodes, so you shouldn't assume the type
of electrode. So that's why you end up at the table. Okay,
all right, well I think that's great. I think that's
a lot of information. We're going to go over some
(39:06):
great illustrations on our coffee hour and it's going to
be again Friday seventeenth, so we'll be going over it
and it'll be easier to understand.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
I promise you it'll be.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Sometimes illustrations make it just worth it, and so we'll
be showing you that connection on how it's done. But basically,
what it means is you're coming out either the all
of these service disconnections, you're coming down, you're hitting a bus,
and then all of them come together on one little
bus I shouldn't say little, you know, one bus, and
then from there the common goes over to the electrode. Okay,
(39:42):
so that type of thing. So we'll show you that
and again explain that in extreme detail. But hopefully that
answers the gentleman's question that's submitted to me. You most
certainly can use two fifty sixty six A B and c.
The permission to do that was right up at the
beginning of two fifty otis sixty six. Anytime it references
(40:02):
like two fifty sixty four D one. Anytime it references
two fifty dots sixty six, then you get to use
all of two fifty dot sixty six depending on what
your condition is. And your condition was rods and so
most certainly, again, you can't put ten pounds of crap
in a five pound bag. So and this is also
keeps you from oversizing conductors that are unnecessary. We have
(40:25):
significant data over the years that say, you know what
ground rods are fine, do this, They're fine.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
Then you're okay, okay, don't have to freak out. All right,
all right, folks, that's it.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
I just wanted to make sure that I covered the
good stuff in answer this question.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
But again, I encourage you to join me.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Folks, everybody out there that's listening to our podcast, no
matter when you listen, if you made it this far
in the podcast, we're forty minutes in, make sure you
join me Monday through Friday at eight am Eastern Time
over on fast Tracks Tube.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
We have a free link at the top.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
All you got to go to it and at the
link at the top, it'll say live shows and free webinars.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Just click on it.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
That's where we have Coffee Hours live stream. But you
can also watch on our YouTube channel which is at
Master the NEC, our Facebook channels which are also at
Master the NEC, and you can follow at that's pretty
much of those, and obviously you can follow us on
our fast tracks to that type of thing, all right,
(41:26):
and over on LinkedIn as well. It's just my name,
Paul Abernathy. You'll know it when you see it. Or
you can follow our company Electrical Code Academy, Inc. And
it streams over there as well as whatever whatever you.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Want, all right, folks.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Until next time, folks, stay safe, God bless and now
we'll catch you on an upcoming episode of Let's Ask
Paul Peace.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Nothing Mask, Nothing No
Saw what up?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Everybody, Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul, the
podcast where you get to send me Paul Abernathy anything
you want about the National Electrical Code. I will break
it down and if I answer in an email, you
may get selected to be used on an upcoming podcast,
much like today's podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
So I'm gonna thank everybody for joining me.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Hopefully you've all been joining me over on Coffee Hour
every morning at eight am. You can watch for free
over on fast tracks Tube. You'll see a link in
the navigation that says Coffee Hour or live free shows,
and that's where we also do our free webinars. But
you can also follow Coffee Hour on all of our
other platforms as well. We stream Coffee Hour live on
(01:14):
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We stream on multiple avenues, and occasionally we even stream
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So thanks for joining me in listening to our podcast.
And if you join the show, it's awesome to have
(01:36):
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bring up any topic you want that is kind of
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to recommend you send it through Paul Abernathy dot com
so that we can make it for an upcoming episode
or a podcast like today, so I can get in
depth in answering your questions things like that. So anyway,
(01:59):
that's what we have, so again, thanks for joining me. Also,
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Speaker 3 (02:14):
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Speaker 2 (02:16):
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That's it a.
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Little icon in a link so you can click it.
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Rather than go to the app store, just go to
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Speaker 3 (02:47):
We only want electricians that are going to use it.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
So that's why when you put something on an app store,
Apple Store or whatever, then anybody can download it, not
you know, we're not about the money for that. We're
not charging for it, so we don't care that there's
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to us. We want electricians to use it. We want
people that are in the electrical business to use it.
So better to get it from us directly at our
(03:09):
website than it is to go searching through that garbage anyway.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
None of that.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
All right, today's episode, we're gonna be answering a question
that was submitted to the Let's ask Paul. That's a
great question. I've been getting questioned this question for decades. Okay,
I've been getting it, not that I serve on code
Making Panel five, but it's just a kind of question
that we typically get all the time and they're like, look,
(03:36):
I need you, I need some clarity for this.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
So that's what we're gonna do today. We're gonna bring
some clarity.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
So what we're talking about is very specific and we're
gonna be looking and talking about two sixty four, but
we're gonna be looking at D one and D one
is that common grounding electrode conductor and taps. So that
is where you may have You might have a CT.
You come out of the sea into a wireway, you
(04:01):
come out of the wireway, you drop down into two
separate service panels right beside each other. And now you're like, Okay,
I know that I have to run from the services
I have to run a connection to, and I have
multiple options, but I have to go from the grounded conductor.
I have to connect to the grounding electrode. Now, whatever
your grounding electrode may be, whether it's a uphur, whatever
(04:24):
it may be in ground steel, whether you know whether
it may be a chemical type of electrode, rods plates,
whatever your electrode, you fur, whatever it may be, you
have to get that connection and make make that connection.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Okay. And so.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
There's this one aspect that seems to always get submitted
to me that seems to be quite confusing for people.
So we're going to clear it up today, and that is, Hey, Paul,
what is And let me let me read you the
question kind of the paraphrase out the question It asks
this question. It says, Paul, thanks for your podcast. I
love listening to it, and I'm loving Coffee Hour.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
In the mornings. Whoops, there you go. Let me give
a shout out.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
He's watching our Coffee Hour and he's listening to our podcasts.
Sweet all right, he says, I understand that in the
twenty twenty three edition of The National, and he also
gave code reference to the what cycle beautiful dude, you're
on it? He said in the twenty twenty three and
see it says that common grounding electroconductor is to be
sized based from the sum of the ungrounded conductors for
(05:31):
one phase or set of the supplied conductors to the
disconnecting service.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Disconnecting means.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
However, it does not stipulate anywhere in there of the
type of electrode that's in question, whether it's a.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Upher or ground rods.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
My question is, does two fifty sixty six A apply and
I not have to size my grounding electrode conductor any
larger than A six?
Speaker 3 (05:58):
If I have ground rods?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Do I have to size the grinding electroconductor based on
the summation?
Speaker 3 (06:06):
I love how it uses these big words that I
like to use.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Summation of the on grounded conductors at the CT or
at the supply side of the service. Thanks in advance.
I hope this is clear. I look forward to hearing
your answer on the next podcast. Okay, thank you very
much for that question. Very detailed, very concise. So what
(06:29):
he's asking he says, Okay, so for those out there
that have your codebook, if you go look at two
fifty sixty four D one now D for example, it
says when you have buildings structures with multiple disconnecting means
in separate enclosures.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Okay, so that's what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
So if I had to paint you this mental picture,
I've got a CT which is basically just you know,
basically you have cts. Current transformers go over top of
the conductors so they can actually read how much power
you're using big CT cabinets, not service equipment. It's put
in there by the utility, or you may install it
for the utility, but the conductor simply just passed through it. Okay,
(07:10):
and then they're going to go into let's say a
wire way, it's still service conductors still on the supply
side code allows us to bond all those metal parts
to the grounded conductor to fifty one two.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
So we're bonded. Everything's good.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
But then it comes down into two separate service disconnects, okay,
and it drops off of that. Okay, So it comes
down and it hits your service distinect.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
So now you.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
You're running your your grounding electrode system for this building.
Now there are three different options here. One, obviously D
one we're gonna be talking about. D two is where
you could run an individual grinding electro conductor from each
individual service enclosure straight to your electrode whatever it may be.
(07:56):
You can run it that's called the individual one from
each one it's fine. Or you could do a common
location that is D three, which means you can make
a connection over in the CT right.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Well, yeah, I know.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
The hjs don't like that shit. Utilities don't like that sometimes.
But again that's the code says you can make that
connection to the grounder conductor anywhere on a supply side
up to it, including in the service disconnect. But you
can do it on the supply side, so it could
be done in a CT, could be done in a
meter h all those type of things.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
I know they don't like it, but it could be done.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
But anyway, common location would be taking your grounding electro
conductor out of a common location ahead of your service
distinct like maybe out of that wireway connected to the
grounder conductors or out of the CT or whatever.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
So you have options, okay, but we're.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Focusing on today is the one that does the common
grinding electro conductor and the taps. So well, this one
painting you a mental picture. You've got your CT, and
if you're in your mind, you're like, I can't.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Picture what a CT is.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Just think of a big box that the conductors from
utility come into.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
They run through these things that look like.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Doughnuts, okay, and it measures the intensity of the power
in order to be able to charge you money.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
It runs through those and then over to.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
The wireway where then it splits off and you can
actually tap onto it and do two separate service equipment.
You get what I'm saying, Okay, that's all I want
you to pint that mental picture now from the service equipment,
which is two or more side by side. The disconnecting
means for the service there's separate enclosures side by side.
(09:29):
I need to get grounding electrodes. I need to have
ground electro conductors for this inclosure. Not I have those
other options, but we're going to go with the one
that does the common.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
And what's the common? Well, the common one is pretty simple.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
You take one conductor properly sized, run it underneath of
both of those service disconnects, and then continue it onto
whatever your electrode may be. So your electrode may be
a ufert, your electrode may be a water pipe ground
that is supplemented by some other electrode in two fifty
to fifty two, A two through a seven or whatnot.
(10:06):
So you're basically it's one common conductor that's going underneath.
It's not necessarily going up in any of the panels,
which it could, but it's not. It's just running underneath.
Let's just say for simplicity's sake, and it goes to
whatever your electrode is. Whatever the electrode is, okay, And
this is also good for exam prep folks, So if
you're out there thinking about exam prep and how people
(10:27):
can ask you questions, this is important. Okay, what it says,
let's read what it says. In two fifty sixty four
D one it says common grounding electrode conductor and taps.
It says a common grinding electrode conductor. And again that's
(10:47):
the one that we run underneath the other panels and
run it straight to the Electrodekay, that's common to both
of the enclosures. It's going to be common to both
the enclosures. Both enclosures are going to connect to it
with a with a tap, if you will. So it's
common shall be size in accordance with two fifty dots
sixty six. Now it says two fifty outs sixty six.
(11:10):
It doesn't say table two fifty douts sixty six. It
just says in accordance with two fifty dots sixty six.
And the reason for that is by making a reference
to two fifty dots sixty six, it's also making it
clear that it's not just table two fifty outs sixty
six it's applicable here, but also the two fifty dots
sixty six, A, B, and C, which many people call exceptions.
(11:34):
They're not exceptionskay, they're allowances.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
They're right there. They're permitted to be able to usize it.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
This is the example of two fifty dots sixty six
A is where it says that it doesn't have to
be larger than the six copper or four aluminum to
a rod piper plate. Okay, if you're not familiar with that,
just grab your codebook, go over and look at two
fifty dots sixty six and then go past the table
and look at a it's connections to rod piper played electrodes,
(12:03):
and it gives you some provisions in there. And you
notice you get to the last sentence and it'll say,
shall not be required to be larger than the six
copper or four lumum. Okay, and we're not going to
talk about the other conductor that's listed there, not going
to reference it, not going to give it any credence
if you will. I'm just not going to do it.
Say it keeps me out of trouble, all right. So
(12:25):
that's what we're dealing with right now. You'll notice that
in the code it does not say anything specific about
the type of electrode. It doesn't get into that, right,
It's just talking about the common grounding electroc conductor and
its associated taps.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
So this is why it says it.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
This way, and people get confused with the verbage, and
I've had electrical inspectors get extremely confused with this verbage.
It says again, I'm going to read it so the
context of reading the whole thing, and then I'll stop
again and we'll redo it again if we need to,
but we need to. Repetition is important for me. Redundancy
is important. But you don't like that, then this is
not the podcast for you, my friend, because I do
(13:07):
things redundantly over and over again to hammer things home. Okay,
it says, a common grinding electro conductor. Hold on, I
got my screen installed upon me, he says, a common
grinding electro conductor and grinding electro conductor taps shall be installed.
The common grinding electric conductor shall be installed in accordance
(13:30):
with two six six based on the sum of the
circular mill area of the largest ungrounded conductors of each
set of conductors that supplies the disconnecting means. Okay, so
let me kind of paint you that mental picture now.
So let's say that I have a Let's say that
(13:53):
I have a CT again. I can just think of
it as conductor's passing through the CT. It's just the
way of the utility for big services, you don't have
this on residential. You just have a meter and you
put the meter in there and that's how they read
your consumption here.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Usually if you have a CT, it'll be just the CT.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
The conductors kind of basically passed through from point A
to point B, and then the CT supplies a meter
that's going to tell you how much they're going to
charge you. Amuff Okay, And if it's commercial, they look
at things like power factors and all this other kind
of stuff based on the equipment that they have connected
to the CT makes sense. So just for you and me,
you just box passing through. So it's where the utility
(14:29):
conductors will come in and then they change over to
be able to get to your service equipment.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
So in this case, let's say it's coming out of
the top of the CT, and it's a double lugged CT,
so there's two lugs on the top, so it's basically
coming out the top and one conductor for let's say
C phase. I'm just throwing numbers out there. Ce phase
it says three phase. Let's say C phase. One of
the conductor's out of the double lug feeds one panel
(14:58):
and then the other lug feed a second panel side
by side. So basically it's two conductors coming out of
C phase C okay or leg C. It wouldn't matter
whether it's just one twenty two forty and you have
leg A and B black and red. Let's say again,
colors aren't required. But just I'm trying to paint you
this mental thing. It's the it's the conductors that are
(15:19):
coming out of the other side of the CT that
is going to be supplying two separate service enclosures, okay,
and disconnecting means you with me.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
So now when it says the summation, basically on C,
you've got two conductors coming out of the LOG and
they're probably gonna be the same size three odd. Let's say, okay, well,
or lets make it easy for a two to fifty
KC meal.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
Let's make it easy.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
So two fifty casey meal one two fifties feeding one
enclosure in the other two fifties feeding the other enclosure.
Perfectly fine, Right, there's no overcurrent protection ahead of all this.
This is a CT, this is utility supplying it. So
it's still service conductors coming in. So you have two
separate panels, so one one panels being fed by a
two fifty, the other panels being fed by two fifty.
(16:04):
But the summation, as it said, of the conductors that
are coming out of the CT would be five hundred
ksemil to five hundreds because that is the set. Let's
say we're just doing the C phase. You with me, okay,
keep it, keep it simple. So it's coming out of
the CT, hitting a wireway that's connected to it, and
(16:27):
then dropping down with the raceways maybe nipples, we call
them nipples. I hate the term nipple, but anyway, it's
a raceway coming down into each set of service enclosures. Oh,
by the way, the image that I'm painting in your mind,
you will be able to watch this on the Coffee
Hour on January seventeenth edition. In twenty twenty five, the
(16:52):
seventh January seventeenth Coffee Hour, we will be going over this.
So for this gentleman, I'm also you know, adding this
to my explanation for Coffee Hour. So again, if any
of this explanation confused you, you do your favorite go look
for Coffee Hour. It talks about the grounding electrode conductors.
And go specifically look for the one that's from January seventeenth.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
Okay, just so you know, all right, So in this scenario,
you take the summation because that's what the code said, right,
code said.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
It says, based on the sum of the circular mill
area of the largest ungrounded conductor's plural of each set.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
So I'm just taking one set set. I'm saying C.
That's it.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
They see one set, whether it's paralleled, and you have two,
whether it's parallel, and you have three set, I'm just
taking C. That's it, and I'm gonna add that summation.
So in our case, we had five hundred thousand circular mills,
or we had two fifty running to each individual service,
but collectively the sum of those ungrounded conductors that are
(18:02):
supplying the disconnecting means the sum is what five hundred KCML.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
You with me, Okay?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Now, it says if the service engine conductors connect directly
to an overhead service conductor, service drop or underground service
conductors or service lateral like not through the CT like
like they go up on a weatherhead and you have
a bunch of risers that come up and they connect
up there, then Basically, it says the common grounding electroc
(18:30):
conductors shall be sized in accordance with Table two fifty
sixty six Note one and all that note says that
if there's multiple sets that are coming, basically it's the
equivalent area of the largest service instance conductor shall be
determined by this summation of the area of the corresponding
conductors of each set.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
So again, if you had six sets, then you just
take all of phase.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
C, okay, and add up all those.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
So if I had a parallel four sets, then I
would just of two fifty. Then it'd be one million
circular mills because I just take the four from C
phase that's it, just one set, that's it, right, and
use that and then I then I go to two
fifty sixty six to the table and work it from there. Okay,
if that makes sense. Okay, So I just wanted to
(19:22):
paint that mental picture. So that's what you do, and
that's what you're going to do.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Guys.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
If you're connecting on the supply side, if you're going
to be using the many options that you have, okay,
if you're going to be using D two for example,
then you're just going individually out to each electrode, and
that's probably going to be dictated by whatever you're running
to the electrode. Okay, for example, ground rods six, you
(19:47):
for four, that type of thing. But if you were
using one of the other electrodes, okay, then you know
you have you could have you'd have a summation issue.
But D two is specific perfectly talking about individual grinding electroconductors.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
Okay, and again we're gonna talk about that on coffee hour.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
It's not going to be the question today, but we'll
be talking about on coffee hour tomorrow, don't worry. And
then the common location would be like making the connection
up into the panel, right, I mean up into the
wireway or making a pan up into the CT or
somewhere on the supply side at common location Okay, it's
like in a wire way or other accessible enclosure on
(20:29):
the supply side. That's exactly what it says. Then you're
gonna have to use this summation like we.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Just talked about.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Okay, all right, uh, but there are other things that
we do want to point out because there are allowances, okay,
there are allowances for rod piper plates, there are allowances
for U first and in that type of thing, so
in rings. So relax, and we're gonna cover those things
(20:55):
on another episode. Right now, We're just gonna be covering
D one right now. That is how you size that now.
So if we were going to let's just say it
was a water pipe ground, right, and we were going
to do this common. So this is one conductor that's
running underneath the two service disconnects, and it's going to
connect to the water pipe ground let's say five feet
a point of entry.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Let's just keep it consistent, right.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
That conductor is going to be based on the summation
of the conductors that are ahead of the service disconnects, Okay,
which is that five hundred we got even though each
individual was fed by two fifty, but they come from
the same lug. It's a double lug, so summation would
be five hundred KC mel okay, And that's how we'd
(21:39):
size that common.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Now, what about now?
Speaker 2 (21:44):
The question that people ask is say, okay, I get that, Paul,
And it doesn't tell me the type of electrode that
we're using. And for an exam it may not. And
that's what you got to remember. If it does not,
then you're going to do just like we did the summation,
and you're going to go to the table once you
get your animation. But what if they tell you it's
a ground rod, What if they tell you it's a pipe,
(22:06):
or what did they tell you it's a plate? Well,
that's why it made reference to two fifty dots sixty six,
because not just the table, because it means you get
to use all of two fifty dots sixty six. And
because of that, in the first charging statement of two
fifty dots sixty six, this is what it says. It
says the size of the grounding electroconductor and bonding jumpers.
(22:27):
Again that's from electrode electrode for example, UH for connecting
the grounding electrodes shall not be smaller than given in
table two fifty dots sixty six, except as permitted in
two fifty dots sixty six A through D. So that's
what so many people get lost at this. Why does
(22:47):
it reference to fifty dots sixty six and two fifty
dots sixty four D one And the reason for that
is it wants you to be able to use all
of two fifty dots sixty six, and this is where
I bring that old saying you can't put ten pounds
of crap in a five pound bag. So if if
you go look at two fifty dot sixty six A,
it says that if the grounding electroconductor or bonding jumper
(23:09):
connected to a single or multiple rods, piper plates, or
any combination thereof are as described in two fifty fifty two,
A five or a seven. Okay, that's describing the different
types of electrodes. By the way, does not core extend
onto other types of electrodes that require a larger conductor.
(23:30):
That means you can't go from a ground rod and
then continue up to a upher to complete your connection.
If you were supplementing, then that would be requiring a
larger conductor.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
So you have to be stopping.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Okay, you have to be ending at the rods piper
plates to be able to use this, okay. Can't extend
on to other electrodes that would require that grounding electroc
conductor to be actually larger.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
You can't do that. So with that said, it says.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
The grounding electroconductor shall not be required to be larger
than a six copper or for aluminum or that other
conductor we won't talk about.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
So we learned in a coffee hour on the sixteenth
of January that we probably are not going to use
aluminum because if we're going to a rod piper plate,
probably it's going to be within eighteen inches of the
earth outside. And of course we have some rules that
we have to follow that we can't do right, and
(24:30):
we're like, okay, well, I can't follow those rules because
those are problems with two fifty dot sixty four and
I don't want to get into that, to excuse me,
two ten dot yeah, sixty four A. I don't want
to get into that with aluminum or that other conductor
that is not copper or aluminum.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
Well, it's more luminant than it is copper, but that's for.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
A that's for a different episode that I won't be
doing because I don't want people's feelings to get hurt.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
So anyway, so that's what we've got, okay.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
So that's why it references to fifty dots sixty six
because I can use two fifty out sixty six A,
B or C.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
We're applicable.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
So the answer is question, if I have a five
thousand amp service and I have the conductors coming out
of the CT shoot man, it could be two million
circular mills feeding two large service disconnects. If I run
ground rods, which I can, and I put two ground
(25:37):
rods six feet apart for this service, I can use
the same two for all of these service disc connects.
By the way, if they're grouped in the location their
meet the requirements at two thirty dots seventy A one,
they're all grouped in A two and all that stuff
in two thirty dots seventy one and seventy two. If
I meet all those rules and I put two ground
rods in, I can bring all of those. I'm just
(26:00):
running that common one all the way underneath all of them.
Not more than six service disconnects grouped in one location.
I'm gonna running underneath, and i'm gonna take it to
my ground rods, and i'm gonna run a six gauge.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
I'm done.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Because of the allowance, the permissive allowance into fifty sixty
six A, it doesn't matter what size those service conductors are.
It doesn't matter about the summation math that people start
blowing their mind in two fifty sixty.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Four D one.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
If I'm using ground rods, doesn't have to be larger
than a six. Again, you can't put ten pounds of
crap in a five pounds back. It is what it
is and it's acceptable. You may not like it, you
may not feel right about it. The same guy that
doesn't feel right about putting a forty amp overcurrent device
on a fourteen gauge because the code says you can
for HVAC or a motor application. It doesn't feel right,
(26:54):
but the code is what it is. Okay, same thing
for a you fur. If I'm going to run a
common underneath these panels and I'm going to run it
to a upher, what does it say to fifty sixty six?
Speaker 3 (27:06):
B says the same concept.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
If you're not extending this grinding electro conductor onto another
electrode that would be required to have a larger grinding electrode,
like continuing onto a water pipe, which is not listed here,
then it doesn't have to be larger than a four copper.
Notice it doesn't give those other types of grinding electroconductor
of material. It only gives one, and that is a
four gauge. Okay, it's not required to be larger than
(27:32):
a four gauge copper. Now let me answer one question
that people bring up. Could it be smaller than these?
Absolutely it could be. You're not forced to use a
B or C. You could use table two fifty dot
sixty six if the size of the conductors in two
(27:53):
fifty sixty four D one, or if it dictates that
you have.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
A situation where your conductors are smaller.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
For example, if you look at table two fifty dots
sixty six, notice it says copper two or smaller. Then
notice that it says the size of the grinding electric
conductor is an eight gauge. So even if it was rods,
you're not required to be larger than the six. But
could you be smaller than a six? Absolutely you could be.
You could be an eight. Now, as we talked about
(28:24):
on Coffee Hour, you got to be careful because once
it becomes an eight, for example, it doesn't matter whether
it's subteto physical damage or not.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Now you have to protect it in a raceway.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
And in my advice on that episode was to use
schedul ADPBC because you don't want to use any metallic
raceway that may be a Ferris metal.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Then you got all those problems that you're gonna have.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
To deal with with bonding right and at each end
of that, And that's something that we'll get into at
some point in two fifty dot sixty four E where
we have to worry about Ferris medals and things like that.
You don't have to worry about that and schedul ADPBC baby,
So just get or done and move on. That type
of scenario. You get me, don't make things work smarter,
not harder. I'm just saying, all right, So now we
(29:07):
know that, for example, we could use a common which
goes underneath both of the all of our service disconnects
and goes to our electrode. If it's a rod piper plate,
it does not have to be larger than a six
copper four aluminum. But again you got those issues about
terminating within eighteen inches of the earth, so be careful.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
With that one.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Okay, typically it's going to be copper. Then you don't
have to worry.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
So we got that.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Let's see here, if it is a uphur, then it
doesn't have to be larger than a four running underneath
all those services going down to the eupher. You don't
have to supplement a u fur Okay, so we're good.
You have to supplement a ground rod unless you can
prove it's twenty five homes or less, so that's why
you have two. So that extra ground rod is basically
(29:55):
supplementing the first ground rod, and together the act is one.
He heard me tell you that the grounding electric conductor
goes to the first rod. The other one is the
requirement by the code if you can't prove twenty five
ms or less. So basically it's supplementing the first one,
and they act as one.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
So that's why it's.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
It's unbroken to the first one except for some allowances
for cad welding or irreversible crimp. Other than that, it's continuous.
But when you go to the second electrode, that's just
a bombing jumper. So you put two separate connectors on
your ground rod and you go to it. And now
if you want to save a connector an acorn, then
you just make it unbroken. You loop through the one
and you go to the other one rod six feet away,
(30:33):
and you just save yourself a connector.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
But that's not required, all right, So I'm all over
the place. I'm an add kind of guy.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
So that common grounding electro conductor that's running underneath your
panels over to your electrode. Done, we showed you how
to size it if it's like a water pipe ground
which then you have to use the summation of the
size of the sets of your service conductors on supply
side of your service disconnect. We showed you that, and
(31:01):
if that confuses you, join me on the seventeenth of January.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
I'll explain it, show you an illustration.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
But then we also explain that well, if it is
one of the ones that are listed rod piper plate,
A uphur or ring, then you have allowance in two
fifty out sixty six A, B or C.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
If it's any of the.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Other electrodes other than the ones that are in two
fifty out sixty six A, B or C, then you
go right to the table and you're going to base
it on the summation. Okay, Now, with all that said,
let's skip on to the part that's the tap part,
because that's the part that people are Okay, so now
I've got my services there, I've got my disconnects there,
(31:40):
separate enclosures, not more than six, all grouped, all happy, happy.
I need to connect from those enclosures down to the
common grounding electrode conductor. Okay, So here's what the code
says under two fifty OT sixty four D one, and
we're going to the second paragraph. It says a grinding
electroe can conductor TAP, and again that is not the
(32:03):
common that's going from the enclosure to connect onto the common.
It says shall extend to the inside of each disconnecting enclosure,
so it needs to go from the common and come
up into the disconnecting means enclosure.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
Okay, so he noticed.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
It says it shall extend to each inside each disconnecting
means enclosure. Each It says the grinding electro conductor TAP
shall be sized at in accordance with two fifty sixty
six for the largest service entrance or feeder conductors serving
the individual enclosure. So now you're not basing this on
(32:43):
the total summation like it's all of the conductors that
are coming out of.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Your CT into the wireway.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
You're only sizing what is supplying the service disconnect of
each individual enclosure individually, Okay, and so that conductor that's
going to be going from that service disconnect the grounded
terminal bus down to the common conductor that you ran
underneath it. That is size based on the conductors that
are supplying the service disconnect for that separate individual enclosure. Okay,
(33:16):
And it says to fifty sixty six again rather than
a table. Why do you think it does that, Because
if you've got a common grounding electro conductor that's only
six gauge due to going to ground rods, then there's
no reason for that tap to be any larger than that, right,
But could it be potentially smaller.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Than the six?
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Absolutely it could be because I do have the option
to use the table, you get me. That's why they
write it that way. That's why they didn't specifically just
send you to the table. Okay, all right, okay, So anyway,
so it says, in accordance with two fifty outs sixty six,
for the largest service entrance or feeder conductor that is
serving that individual enclosure, it says, the tap conductor shall
(34:02):
be connected to the common grinding electro conductor by one
of the following means, not all of them. One of
the following means in such a manner that the common
grinding electrode conductor remains.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
Without a splice.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Okay, so we just start that common one underneath the panels.
It just starts out of nowhere. It just starts and
runs underneath them and then continues on to the electrode.
So by making the connection that tap from the enclosure
service enclosure, each individual one down to it, I have
to do it so that it doesn't splice that common
(34:40):
It can't splice it or break it anyway. That was continuous.
It has to make a connection to it. Now, how
can we make that connection so that doesn't mess with
the integrity of that common grinding electrode conductor. Well, it
says we can exothermic. Well that if we want so,
we can position it up and do that. I'm probably
(35:01):
not going to do that, but you can. Next it says, well,
you can use connectors listed as grounding and bonding for
grounding and bonding equipment. Well, that's an example of terminations.
In two fifty eight we get a nice little list
of different acceptable methods. Okay, but I'm going to tell
you the one that people mostly use here, because remember
(35:21):
the tap doesn't have to be unspliced obviously, it's coming
from the enclosure and splicing onto the unbroken common grinding election. Right,
So most of the people we just use a split bolt,
a split bolt listed for grounding and bonding applications, stamped
as such.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
It's listed, it's got its mark on it. It's good
to go. They just use split bolts. So yes, they
can be split bolt.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
The taps can be split bolt to the common grinding
electro conductor, and you're not breaking the common grinding electroductor.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
You're not breaking it, okay.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
The third method for doing this is where it's a
connections to.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
An aluminum or copper.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Bus bar not less than a quarter of an inch
thick and two inches wide, And of course the length
of it has to be long enough to accommodate all
the connections that you may be making to it.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
Okay, So that goes without saying.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
If you have other connections, you need to make sure
you have a number of terminations that is actually necessary
to make those connections, okay.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
So again the.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Length of it's dependent on your number of connections, but
the width of it is dictated two inches wide, and
the thickness of this aluminum bar or copper bus bar
is a quarter of an inch thick, which is probably
standard for any of those bus bars that.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
You would buy for this type of application.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
They're very common to use in data centers on the
wall when you're creating this grid or you're used outside.
Very common to buy these bus bars that have their
own little feet that you mount and that kind of
raises and elevates it off the wall.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
That type of thing very common.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
And it tells you that that bus bar shall be
securely fastened and shall I'll be installed in an accessible location.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Ain't no hiding that bus bar, folks. Accessible.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
It says connections shall be made to that bus bar
from your grinding electroconductor. It shall be made by a
listed connector or by exothermic welding process. It says if
aluminum bus bar are used, the installation shall comply with
two fifty sixty four A. And that's just a reminder
that not to make it so that it is within
eighteen inches of the earth.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
That's all it's making a reference to.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
I love how the code does that. Some people hate it,
but I love how it does it. Okay, just makes
everything clean and clear. Okay, So just kind of one
of those things. Now, if you have link and you
remember NFPA and you subscribe to link, it's like one
hundred and twenty bucks a year to get so much information.
(37:50):
They have a really nice enhanced content illustration. It's really
nice and it basically shows a picture of it and
the connections and how it does and all that kind
of things.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
So encourage you. If you have it, go look at it.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
It is underneath D one and it kind of shows
an example of what I've pretty much painted you a
mental picture of. And of course we'll look at it
as well when we come to.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
The coffee hour.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Now, I will remind you the one that's shown in
the picture does not dictate the type of electrode.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
And that's important.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Because if it doesn't dictate the type of electrode, then
you're going to be going to wear You're be going
to the tables. You're not going to be going to
like two fifty sixty six A for ride Piper play
because they did not tell you the type of electrode.
That's so important guys for taking exams. If they don't
tell you the type of electrode, and you're going to default,
okay at the table based on the summation of conductors. Okay,
(38:46):
You're not going to be using a B or c
in sixty six because it doesn't make a reference to
the type of electrodes, so you shouldn't assume the type
of electrode. So that's why you end up at the table. Okay,
all right, well I think that's great. I think that's
a lot of information. We're going to go over some
(39:06):
great illustrations on our coffee hour and it's going to
be again Friday seventeenth, so we'll be going over it
and it'll be easier to understand.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
I promise you it'll be.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Sometimes illustrations make it just worth it, and so we'll
be showing you that connection on how it's done. But basically,
what it means is you're coming out either the all
of these service disconnections, you're coming down, you're hitting a bus,
and then all of them come together on one little
bus I shouldn't say little, you know, one bus, and
then from there the common goes over to the electrode. Okay,
(39:42):
so that type of thing. So we'll show you that
and again explain that in extreme detail. But hopefully that
answers the gentleman's question that's submitted to me. You most
certainly can use two fifty sixty six A B and c.
The permission to do that was right up at the
beginning of two fifty otis sixty six. Anytime it references
(40:02):
like two fifty sixty four D one. Anytime it references
two fifty dots sixty six, then you get to use
all of two fifty dot sixty six depending on what
your condition is. And your condition was rods and so
most certainly, again, you can't put ten pounds of crap
in a five pound bag. So and this is also
keeps you from oversizing conductors that are unnecessary. We have
(40:25):
significant data over the years that say, you know what
ground rods are fine, do this, They're fine.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
Then you're okay, okay, don't have to freak out. All right,
all right, folks, that's it.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
I just wanted to make sure that I covered the
good stuff in answer this question.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
But again, I encourage you to join me.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
Folks, everybody out there that's listening to our podcast, no
matter when you listen, if you made it this far
in the podcast, we're forty minutes in, make sure you
join me Monday through Friday at eight am Eastern Time
over on fast Tracks Tube.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
We have a free link at the top.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
All you got to go to it and at the
link at the top, it'll say live shows and free webinars.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Just click on it.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
That's where we have Coffee Hours live stream. But you
can also watch on our YouTube channel which is at
Master the NEC, our Facebook channels which are also at
Master the NEC, and you can follow at that's pretty
much of those, and obviously you can follow us on
our fast tracks to that type of thing, all right,
(41:26):
and over on LinkedIn as well. It's just my name,
Paul Abernathy. You'll know it when you see it. Or
you can follow our company Electrical Code Academy, Inc. And
it streams over there as well as whatever whatever you.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Want, all right, folks.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Until next time, folks, stay safe, God bless and now
we'll catch you on an upcoming episode of Let's Ask
Paul Peace.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Nothing Mask, Nothing No
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