April 4, 2025 • 22 mins
Nonfiction authors & thought leaders: Write with courage, bridge divides, and defend your work without getting canceled.
Want to finally publish your book and start making money from it? Download my free FREE guide - The Publishing Decision: How to Choose the Best Path for Your Book! here: http://authornation.online/publishing
🔑 Key Takeaways
🚀 Are you ready to own your voice? Hit Subscribe for more tools on ethical storytelling and fearless writing, then go read the show notes at https://authornationtube.com/how-to-stand-by-your-message/
Want to finally publish your book and start making money from it? Download my free FREE guide - The Publishing Decision: How to Choose the Best Path for Your Book! here: http://authornation.online/publishing
🔑 Key Takeaways
- ✨ How To Stand By Your Message: Build resilience by locking into your why (legacy > likes). Use Viktor Frankl’s framework to separate feedback from attacks—explain, don’t defend.
- 🗣️ Writing About Politics Without Choosing Sides: Neutralize bias by focusing on shared values (e.g., education, safety) vs. partisan rhetoric. Avoid weaponized language; amplify voices, not divides.
- 🛡️ Red-Team Your Manuscript Against Criticism: Stress-test your arguments with critics who hate your thesis. Refine logic, fix blind spots, and bulletproof your narrative before publishing.
- 🌉 Bridge Divides, Don’t Widen Them: Start with common ground. Both sides want progress—frame debates around solutions, not sides.
🚀 Are you ready to own your voice? Hit Subscribe for more tools on ethical storytelling and fearless writing, then go read the show notes at https://authornationtube.com/how-to-stand-by-your-message/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to do authination interviews. Today, we're talking about writing
about divisive topics and dealing with feedback you might receive
about your book that you're not so happy about. Hi,
I'm Melanane, I'm your host, and I'm here to show
you how you can write successfully and deal with feedback
that is really tough, because you can do it. Visit
(00:32):
authornation dot online to access a treasure trove of resources
just for you. Now, whether you are ending your day
putting up your feet and relaxing, whether you are on
your way to work in the morning, sit back, settle
in and relax, because I'm going to introduce our guest.
(00:57):
Our guest, Chris Reese is a former Army combat engineer, journalist,
award winning entrepreneur, and the author of five books, including
The Woke Paradox. His latest work explores the evolution of
Wokism and offers strategies for building bridging societal divides and
(01:18):
we know we have a lot of those right now.
A Tenex speaker, a PhD candidate in Human computer interaction,
Chris has been recognized with Global Innovation Awards and as
a finalist for the Australian Prime Minister's veteran Entrepreneur of
the Year, known for making complex topics accessible. He speaks
(01:41):
globally on ethics, tech and innovation. Chris brings depth, humor,
and curiosity to every conversation, and making him a sought
after voice in nonfiction and beyond. Welcome, Chris, how are
you today?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
I'm good, very good. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Absolutely, I'm thrilled. What time is it where you are?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
It's just come.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
I am eight am, so so I'm finishing up my day.
You're starting your.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Day, So I am just go back from a runnow
already and set for you.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Oh beautiful, excellent. All right, let's talk a little bit
about the Woke paradox. I'm really curious because it explores
the the you know, the term woke, which has really
become this cultural flashpoint. So what led you to write
this book and think about you know, how challenging it
was to write about this complex topic, and maybe some
(02:38):
advice you could give other nonfiction authors on their journey
writing about divisive or complex topics.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, okay, well it is my second book on devosit topics.
And until you actually reached out to me in bought
me on the show, I hadn't really thought that that
was what I'd done, but it be kaind of Is
to a tea because my mom was a community activist
and a politician. She writes this old who actually have
a voice in debates in society if we felt the
need and we had an informed opinion to weigh in.
(03:06):
So with the woke paradox, I was just really confused
and frustrated about how wokism, which was from an original
American African American vernacular, was about being aware of empathic,
being curious, and looking after the people undeserved in society,
marginalized in almost forgotten. And I thought, you know, woke
(03:27):
in essence is a really good idea in which would
all put it into practice, but it's been so degenerated
in the usage in the last few years where it's
been weaponized. There's all this political polemic and it's just
the left and the right out there arguing with each
other about social change and how their party would do it.
Whereas what it's done and I've seen in Australia, I
(03:49):
know it's even more device in the United States in
the UK, is that people just end up giving up
and they just don't feel that they can actually be
part of the debate, so there's no middle ground. In
an interview I had yesterday, the guy was talking about
in America, we don't have a middle class anymore. I said,
you actually do. They just don't have a voice because
at the current state of politics and the woke debate
(04:11):
around the world, the loudest voice wins. So what I
discussed in the book is that fundamentally both sides want
the same thing. They want a quality of opportunity, they
want good education, healthcare, safe streets, people included in all
walks of life. But they're just going about it in
such different ways. So what I found most interesting in
doing this book in the research was trying to find
(04:32):
somebody else who was a nonpartisan out there to interview,
to talk about what do you agree with with the left,
what do you agree with with the right? What would
you do? How have you been involved? What I found
was so many people who wanted to tow the party
line and get up on a soapbox and say, well,
the right is right and all the left is right,
you know, and then the language they used was almost
(04:53):
like a press release. I kept coming across more and
more people from either side of the divide who kept
using the same sound bo and the same words in
the same context. But then you take that word and
you use it on the other side and it meant
different things. This is ridiculous because how am I, as
a person who does believe in things like the quality
of opportunity and everything else with my middle class quite
(05:15):
privilege I actually made in a meaningful way rather than
just Facebook well photo to have I'm woke as my image.
So I wrote a book about it, and so it
took two years of actually chasing people down all around
the book. And I can't believe if you go on
to Amazon and you type in work as the search
(05:35):
term looking for books, all of the books choose one
side or the other. Nobody's decided to say in the middle,
this is what you can do. This is their freedom
and the power that you have. Much like you know
you step on a piece of lego at two o'clock
in the morning, that tiny, one piece of lego is
going to ruin your day. But it's amazing how impactful
one more person can be. And what I've seen in
(05:55):
the past few weeks since the book has come out
is a couple of people who have interviewed me on
podcast US or radio have put it up on their
websites or on their social channels, and it's spark debate.
And what they're saying is ostensibly by sharing the interview
that they did with me, is I'm for the middle.
I want what everybody wants. I want the equality and
everything else. I don't want to get caught up in
(06:16):
all the bs and all the drama and the webinarized language.
I don't want to cancel people for no reason. I
think everyone should have an opinion, should be able to
express it, but also be held accountable for it. And yeah,
it's been great to see that. I'm getting emails from
the weirdest places all around the world where people are
coming across the book because they said it's long, average EIC.
So my lesson there to hello writers of non fiction
(06:37):
created nonfiction specifically, is you're working with fact, and you've
got to be really, really careful about how you bring
together those facts tell your story. It's the same as
me as a PhD candidate. Right now, I can go
and find a wholly bit of evidence just one thing,
but at the same time, go and find a wholly
bit of evidence to suggest the counter argument. So you
(06:57):
really have to care for when you want to tell
a story, devote so much of your life to writing
something that you find the right content that actually really
does tell the story honestly without bias, because it's all
about the attempt right the writers, we have this incredible
privilege to use, in your case, less words, and there's
lots of words actually changed the pole to shape the
(07:18):
world that we live in. So you have to be
really really careful because it's your reputation. But the biggest
thing is that a book is a legacy that's going
to outlast you, and it's going to be used and
referred to in different ways. And so if you're not
responsible in actually shaping that piece of content, that piece
of social criticism, almost then it can come back to
buy you.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, and I want to talk about that coming back
to bait you because a lot of people and you
talked about the middle class being silenced. I may be wrong,
but I sometimes I get the sense that it's difficult
to speak up because if you see something that somebody
else disagrees with, you get backlash, You get, as you say, counsel,
(08:00):
this whole council culture and so how do you approach
writing about something that could get you a lot of backlash?
You know, how do you how do you stay resilient
in that? How do you persist through criticisms or setbacks?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
I think the best answer to this, and this only
came to me this week. Earlier this week in a
podcast interview with the Manners, referring to just before we
went on there, Victor Frankel, who was the psychologist that
was in the death camps during World War Two. He
wrote a book, Man's for Meeting, and much like Simon Sitting,
talks about finding your why. Victor Frankel said, you can
endure almost anything if you have a why, a reason
(08:41):
to live, someone to love, a mission to fulfill. So,
when you're in the trenches and you're defending your book,
or at least discussing it, I don't think you should
ever have to defend your work. You should explain it,
not ask or give excuses, not ask for forgiveness. Your
job as a writer an author is to create the
most the best piece at the time that you can
(09:02):
create to get your message out there, whatever it might be,
whether it's divisive or not. And when you're in the
fray of it. So my first book was about violence
around the world, and I talked about everything from honor killings, euthanasia,
you know, ritual murder, serial killers, whatever, And I just
want to put a human face to these stories, you know,
as an ex combat soldier, I wanted to understand if
(09:24):
we're ever allowed to kill. And so in writers festivals,
I actually have had death threats and I've had to
have police called and things like that. I had to
hide all my social media, change my numbers, but I
never backed down from the fact that the book was
a really important book that had to be written, and
I'm glad I wrote it. I feel the same here now.
So I've been on two podcasts in the last two
weeks where they've been very very partisan and decided to
(09:47):
go against me, and I just stay cool and calm
and just say, look, it's you know, by all means,
I mean, I respect your opinion. It's an attitude of
appreciative inquiry. Your opinion is as true to you as
mine is to me. And I prompt you're not going
to because this is very well researched. It makes sense
when you read it, and it's a very different view
(10:07):
of the Worke debate that actually says we should be
breathing air back into the work debate, taking out all
the toxic mess and the empty language and the weaponized language,
and just getting it back to basics of giving people equality,
letting people know they're scene, letting them know that people
like me sitting in my nice, comfortable air condition office
and everything else do give a damn about marginalized and community.
(10:30):
So yeah, I think it's resilience for authors really means
you have to lock into what is your purpose and
what is your mission as an author with your tone
that you have written, and hold true to that, and
don't let anyone tell you any different unless they come
up with something that substantially didn't you didn't know, the
world didn't know, and then someone can sway. You. Don't
be so unflexible that you're inflexible that you can't actually
(10:52):
expand your views over time. This book did for me dramatically,
But yeah, hold true, hold true to the reason you
wrote it. And someone's giving you all of their attitude,
just small and thank them for their opinion and keep
going about what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Good fun, Yeah, thank you. If you'd like to learn more,
about Chris. You can find them at Chris Reese dot co.
That's c h R I S R h y S
S dot co dot co. And so Chris I had
this is my next question. So you say, uh, you know,
(11:28):
just calm, stick your guns. But a lot of people
will tell you. But I'm sitting there and somebody says
something inflammatory to me and my whole body just goes
up in flames, and and you know, it's like, how
do I not react? That's my question? How do you
how do you remain calm talking about your books when
(11:51):
it's so I mean, obviously you've spent so much time writing.
It must be personal. It's important to you. There's people
that you you know, in some way like attacking you.
Where do you find that that groundedness, that's centricness to
remain calm.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Always come back. I write a book, and then you
know how you write a book. Then you have to
write the cover, jacket, content for it, the back cover.
How do you describe this book? What is the goal
of this book? And when emotions get into these debates
and they frequently do it writers festivals and readings and
things like that, that there's two things you need to
be aware of one is staying on script, so I
(12:27):
don't get dragged into impassioned debates. When people use emotion
and start to attack you, that usually means they're coming
from a place of fear or weakness. So you might
be shaking the tree so much they're being defensive without
even realizing it. Sometimes, so you need to be gentled
with big topics about how you say to people. Look,
you believe this. What I'm saying is maybe you should
(12:47):
just open up the borders and believe that. Don't take
them to their just baby steps. So I find when
people get really emotional, I sit back, I slowed down
the way I talk. I reflect back to them what
they're saying is in like, so, I'm hearing you quite
emotional about this subject. I hear this is the point
of debate. I stand and I believe this. You believe
(13:09):
that where do you want to go from here? And
to have that presence of the mind it can be
really unsettling for some people. And then what you'll see
is two things will happen. One is that they'll kind
of wind back a bit and then start to have
a bit more open discussion, or second, they'll attack you
personally because they're not getting through on their intellectual level
and they're not getting their point across. So they start
to say something about your background, what do you know,
(13:31):
you were just a soldier or something like that. And
as soon as it becomes personal, and you've already won,
not that it should be a contest of winning it losing.
As soon as they start to make it personal, not
about the message and about the intent, then you know
that they don't have anything left in their armory.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Yeah. Yeah, those were some great strategies tactics. But what
I really really loved about your answer was, you know,
when somebody attacked you personally look at them and think, wow,
they must be scared or you know, uncertain, or you know,
there there's something going on with I'm you know, I'm
really I feel for this person. There's something wrong there.
(14:09):
And just like turning that instead of instead of responding
with anger and fear, recognizing their their dilemma and and
showing some in in some ways, you're showing an empathy
for that. Yeah, I hear that that you're really scared.
I love that answer. I think that's a that's that's
incredibly powerful, just to reframe how you see people so
(14:34):
I want to talk about feedback. We're talking about you know,
don't kind of don't listen to this this kind of
negative like that, you know, let go of the let
go of the cruelness that people can throw at you.
But what about real feedback, whether it's positive or negative.
A lot of people their book goes out on Amazon,
and I'm I haven't read all the reviews on your
(14:56):
on your latest book, but I'm guessing some people I
don't like it because it's not in agreement with what
they are.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
How do you.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Determine what feedback you're going to take and what feedback
you're going to reject without flavoring it with your own bias.
Does that make sense that question?
Speaker 2 (15:20):
It's almost back to the same answer I'll give about
when somebody's giving you feedback in real time, I separate
the message from the person and the delivery. So if
I've got something to say about is it actually incorrect
the way that I've written something, that's the first piece
of me back I'll always take on Lord. So if
somebody correct me and they can back that up, absolutely,
I change on the spot. If it's personal feedback and
(15:42):
they're one event because they're angry with the world and
I've just stabilized them. Then I take that on the
chin as well too, because that's the inchange of the
book to the Middle America and the people like yourself
and myself who are willing to talk about these topics.
It's not quite as impassioned a debate because we're kind
of already there and we're trying to work out we
pick up a book like this because we're looking to
affect change and we feel like we'd be part of
(16:03):
something that it's been shown to so many people. It's like, no, no,
this is for the government to handle. You guys, just
sit back. We got this, and that's not the case.
This is a debate, much like Rosa Parks sitting on
a bus and not getting up. This is the current
version of that and the way that she became this
lynchpin of civil rights movement. Every single person out there
with social media channels who shares this interview, shares their
(16:25):
review of the book for good or bad, is participating
in some sense around change. So some people don't want change,
and I understand that. I mean, when I was younger,
I liked my life being really simple. In the military,
I get out now, and I find inherently as I
get older, like my Ted talk, the uncomfortable truth between
right and wrong was my Ted talk, because there's a
(16:45):
lot of grain in the world. You know, my government
gave me a gun at the age of seventeen and said,
at some stage we might cash in this blank check
you wrote for your life to serve your country, and
I'm fortunately just serve as the peacekeeper. You know, these
we have these responsibilities, right And I think that if
somebody comes up to me and just says, look, I
(17:06):
didn't like it and here's why, and they can say
it really rationally, that's really useful for me as well too.
And it really does guide interviews like this as well,
where I kind of slow down and I want to
see the pace you're coming at this, how much energy
and you're investing in this interview? Is there something you
want to get off your chest? Which I've found quite
a lot in the past couple of weeks. But I
always thank people. I've had two Amazon reviews where people
(17:27):
have just said I'm gonna put this up. They've emailed
me through my website and I said, put it up.
You know that you don't like it, and you disagree
and it's hate language in your book. That's fantastic. Put
it up because I believe in free speech people being
held accountable for it, and believe myself. You don't like
what I wrote, tell me why, and if it's rational,
I will celebrate that as much as I celebrate how
happy I am with the book.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yeah, I like that, Thank you. So one thing I'm
curious about in the week in the Wok Paradox, you
talk about a bridging divides. So can you talk a
little bit about this and how bridging divides, how you
as a nonfiction author working towards bridging divides through your rating.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, it's actually that was my original goal with this
whole project was working at a framework for how we
can bring people to the table from different sides to
actually discuss this without all of the passion to take
a big rational step back to agree on common ground. So,
and that was what my mom did as a politician
in the local area where I grew up, was that
(18:32):
she'd have both parties coming in and actually vuying for
her vote, which would sway a whole region and be
offering better schools, better roads, whatever it might be, tax
cuts and she'd end up getting them boat at the table,
both bringing something not quite as much as they originally offered,
but everyone kind of getting a middle ground. And I
really respected that, and in doing this book, all the
(18:53):
research in the background on it, I would sit there
and I'd go and see someone on the right, and
the next thing I do is go and see someone
on the left with what I've just heard over there,
knowing full well I'm going to hear over here, and
then be able to reflect some of what I heard
on the right, the essence of it, which was something
like looking after safe societies and school education. Soon at
(19:14):
the moment they say on the left, education and safest
streets is where we're at, it's like, well, that's interesting
because the right agrees, and you see their faces sometimes
because they'd be really thrown because people get so brought
into their sides that they choose. And this is the
problem with a strip party system. If someone says yes
on the left, you've got to say no on the right,
because that's how two party politics works, and that's not
(19:34):
how it works. It is to actually say, look, so
you care about schools, You care about schools, you care
about crime, you care about crime, you care about opportunity.
You care about opportunity. Let's start there, not just the
people who are our elected officials, but everything from the
people on the streets who are marginalized, people like you
and I in the middle, who are just like, well,
what can we do? Point us in the right directions
(19:56):
with the information set us free. So that's I think
divides is you need to understand common ground first before
you can actually start to get people to start broaching gaps.
And as soon as you're clear on that and you've
got confirmation from both sides that this is true, that's
where it gets really exciting and it moves really fast.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Yeah, that's really useful. Thank you so much, Chris. So
where can we learn more about you? And where can
we find your books?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
So books are on Barnes and Noble and Amazon for
the most part, I do everything through Amazon. It's a
lot easier. But yeah, Chris Reese dot Co is my website.
It's got links to all my five books, and I
have a blog up there and if anyone has questions
reach out. There's a contact form on the website. And
always happy to discuss this stuff as.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Always brilliant Chris. Thank you very much for coming. It's
been fabulous to have you. I've really enjoyed listening to
your ideas. You've given our audience some really good advice today.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Thank you, thank you, thank you for having.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Me absolutely all right, everyone, thank you for joining us
on Author Nation Interviews. I hope conversation that's provided you with,
you know, some strength and resilience, some ideas on how
to really write about your you know, your way you
want to change the world without as much fear of
(21:15):
backlash and negative feedback.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Because we're all going to get it.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Not everyone likes me, not everyone likes Chris, not everyone
likes you, and that's just the way it is. Don't
forget to visit authornation dot online for a wealth of
resources designed to support your journey as a nonfiction author.
And of course, we greatly appreciate your feedback. If you
have enjoyed this episode today and I know you have,
(21:39):
consider leaving a comment, leaving a review, and don't forget
to share it with someone who you know is writing
a book that might get some backlash, who really needs
to hear this and your participation helps us continue delivering
insights and tools that you need to succeed, So keep writing,
(22:03):
keep creating, and continue sharing your unique stories with the world.
Welcome to do authination interviews. Today, we're talking about writing
about divisive topics and dealing with feedback you might receive
about your book that you're not so happy about. Hi,
I'm Melanane, I'm your host, and I'm here to show
you how you can write successfully and deal with feedback
that is really tough, because you can do it. Visit
(00:32):
authornation dot online to access a treasure trove of resources
just for you. Now, whether you are ending your day
putting up your feet and relaxing, whether you are on
your way to work in the morning, sit back, settle
in and relax, because I'm going to introduce our guest.
(00:57):
Our guest, Chris Reese is a former Army combat engineer, journalist,
award winning entrepreneur, and the author of five books, including
The Woke Paradox. His latest work explores the evolution of
Wokism and offers strategies for building bridging societal divides and
(01:18):
we know we have a lot of those right now.
A Tenex speaker, a PhD candidate in Human computer interaction,
Chris has been recognized with Global Innovation Awards and as
a finalist for the Australian Prime Minister's veteran Entrepreneur of
the Year, known for making complex topics accessible. He speaks
(01:41):
globally on ethics, tech and innovation. Chris brings depth, humor,
and curiosity to every conversation, and making him a sought
after voice in nonfiction and beyond. Welcome, Chris, how are
you today?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
I'm good, very good. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Absolutely, I'm thrilled. What time is it where you are?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
It's just come.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
I am eight am, so so I'm finishing up my day.
You're starting your.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Day, So I am just go back from a runnow
already and set for you.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Oh beautiful, excellent. All right, let's talk a little bit
about the Woke paradox. I'm really curious because it explores
the the you know, the term woke, which has really
become this cultural flashpoint. So what led you to write
this book and think about you know, how challenging it
was to write about this complex topic, and maybe some
(02:38):
advice you could give other nonfiction authors on their journey
writing about divisive or complex topics.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, okay, well it is my second book on devosit topics.
And until you actually reached out to me in bought
me on the show, I hadn't really thought that that
was what I'd done, but it be kaind of Is
to a tea because my mom was a community activist
and a politician. She writes this old who actually have
a voice in debates in society if we felt the
need and we had an informed opinion to weigh in.
(03:06):
So with the woke paradox, I was just really confused
and frustrated about how wokism, which was from an original
American African American vernacular, was about being aware of empathic,
being curious, and looking after the people undeserved in society,
marginalized in almost forgotten. And I thought, you know, woke
(03:27):
in essence is a really good idea in which would
all put it into practice, but it's been so degenerated
in the usage in the last few years where it's
been weaponized. There's all this political polemic and it's just
the left and the right out there arguing with each
other about social change and how their party would do it.
Whereas what it's done and I've seen in Australia, I
(03:49):
know it's even more device in the United States in
the UK, is that people just end up giving up
and they just don't feel that they can actually be
part of the debate, so there's no middle ground. In
an interview I had yesterday, the guy was talking about
in America, we don't have a middle class anymore. I said,
you actually do. They just don't have a voice because
at the current state of politics and the woke debate
(04:11):
around the world, the loudest voice wins. So what I
discussed in the book is that fundamentally both sides want
the same thing. They want a quality of opportunity, they
want good education, healthcare, safe streets, people included in all
walks of life. But they're just going about it in
such different ways. So what I found most interesting in
doing this book in the research was trying to find
(04:32):
somebody else who was a nonpartisan out there to interview,
to talk about what do you agree with with the left,
what do you agree with with the right? What would
you do? How have you been involved? What I found
was so many people who wanted to tow the party
line and get up on a soapbox and say, well,
the right is right and all the left is right,
you know, and then the language they used was almost
(04:53):
like a press release. I kept coming across more and
more people from either side of the divide who kept
using the same sound bo and the same words in
the same context. But then you take that word and
you use it on the other side and it meant
different things. This is ridiculous because how am I, as
a person who does believe in things like the quality
of opportunity and everything else with my middle class quite
(05:15):
privilege I actually made in a meaningful way rather than
just Facebook well photo to have I'm woke as my image.
So I wrote a book about it, and so it
took two years of actually chasing people down all around
the book. And I can't believe if you go on
to Amazon and you type in work as the search
(05:35):
term looking for books, all of the books choose one
side or the other. Nobody's decided to say in the middle,
this is what you can do. This is their freedom
and the power that you have. Much like you know
you step on a piece of lego at two o'clock
in the morning, that tiny, one piece of lego is
going to ruin your day. But it's amazing how impactful
one more person can be. And what I've seen in
(05:55):
the past few weeks since the book has come out
is a couple of people who have interviewed me on
podcast US or radio have put it up on their
websites or on their social channels, and it's spark debate.
And what they're saying is ostensibly by sharing the interview
that they did with me, is I'm for the middle.
I want what everybody wants. I want the equality and
everything else. I don't want to get caught up in
(06:16):
all the bs and all the drama and the webinarized language.
I don't want to cancel people for no reason. I
think everyone should have an opinion, should be able to
express it, but also be held accountable for it. And yeah,
it's been great to see that. I'm getting emails from
the weirdest places all around the world where people are
coming across the book because they said it's long, average EIC.
So my lesson there to hello writers of non fiction
(06:37):
created nonfiction specifically, is you're working with fact, and you've
got to be really, really careful about how you bring
together those facts tell your story. It's the same as
me as a PhD candidate. Right now, I can go
and find a wholly bit of evidence just one thing,
but at the same time, go and find a wholly
bit of evidence to suggest the counter argument. So you
(06:57):
really have to care for when you want to tell
a story, devote so much of your life to writing
something that you find the right content that actually really
does tell the story honestly without bias, because it's all
about the attempt right the writers, we have this incredible
privilege to use, in your case, less words, and there's
lots of words actually changed the pole to shape the
(07:18):
world that we live in. So you have to be
really really careful because it's your reputation. But the biggest
thing is that a book is a legacy that's going
to outlast you, and it's going to be used and
referred to in different ways. And so if you're not
responsible in actually shaping that piece of content, that piece
of social criticism, almost then it can come back to
buy you.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, and I want to talk about that coming back
to bait you because a lot of people and you
talked about the middle class being silenced. I may be wrong,
but I sometimes I get the sense that it's difficult
to speak up because if you see something that somebody
else disagrees with, you get backlash, You get, as you say, counsel,
(08:00):
this whole council culture and so how do you approach
writing about something that could get you a lot of backlash?
You know, how do you how do you stay resilient
in that? How do you persist through criticisms or setbacks?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
I think the best answer to this, and this only
came to me this week. Earlier this week in a
podcast interview with the Manners, referring to just before we
went on there, Victor Frankel, who was the psychologist that
was in the death camps during World War Two. He
wrote a book, Man's for Meeting, and much like Simon Sitting,
talks about finding your why. Victor Frankel said, you can
endure almost anything if you have a why, a reason
(08:41):
to live, someone to love, a mission to fulfill. So,
when you're in the trenches and you're defending your book,
or at least discussing it, I don't think you should
ever have to defend your work. You should explain it,
not ask or give excuses, not ask for forgiveness. Your
job as a writer an author is to create the
most the best piece at the time that you can
(09:02):
create to get your message out there, whatever it might be,
whether it's divisive or not. And when you're in the
fray of it. So my first book was about violence
around the world, and I talked about everything from honor killings, euthanasia,
you know, ritual murder, serial killers, whatever, And I just
want to put a human face to these stories, you know,
as an ex combat soldier, I wanted to understand if
(09:24):
we're ever allowed to kill. And so in writers festivals,
I actually have had death threats and I've had to
have police called and things like that. I had to
hide all my social media, change my numbers, but I
never backed down from the fact that the book was
a really important book that had to be written, and
I'm glad I wrote it. I feel the same here now.
So I've been on two podcasts in the last two
weeks where they've been very very partisan and decided to
(09:47):
go against me, and I just stay cool and calm
and just say, look, it's you know, by all means,
I mean, I respect your opinion. It's an attitude of
appreciative inquiry. Your opinion is as true to you as
mine is to me. And I prompt you're not going
to because this is very well researched. It makes sense
when you read it, and it's a very different view
(10:07):
of the Worke debate that actually says we should be
breathing air back into the work debate, taking out all
the toxic mess and the empty language and the weaponized language,
and just getting it back to basics of giving people equality,
letting people know they're scene, letting them know that people
like me sitting in my nice, comfortable air condition office
and everything else do give a damn about marginalized and community.
(10:30):
So yeah, I think it's resilience for authors really means
you have to lock into what is your purpose and
what is your mission as an author with your tone
that you have written, and hold true to that, and
don't let anyone tell you any different unless they come
up with something that substantially didn't you didn't know, the
world didn't know, and then someone can sway. You. Don't
be so unflexible that you're inflexible that you can't actually
(10:52):
expand your views over time. This book did for me dramatically,
But yeah, hold true, hold true to the reason you
wrote it. And someone's giving you all of their attitude,
just small and thank them for their opinion and keep
going about what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Good fun, Yeah, thank you. If you'd like to learn more,
about Chris. You can find them at Chris Reese dot co.
That's c h R I S R h y S
S dot co dot co. And so Chris I had
this is my next question. So you say, uh, you know,
(11:28):
just calm, stick your guns. But a lot of people
will tell you. But I'm sitting there and somebody says
something inflammatory to me and my whole body just goes
up in flames, and and you know, it's like, how
do I not react? That's my question? How do you
how do you remain calm talking about your books when
(11:51):
it's so I mean, obviously you've spent so much time writing.
It must be personal. It's important to you. There's people
that you you know, in some way like attacking you.
Where do you find that that groundedness, that's centricness to
remain calm.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Always come back. I write a book, and then you
know how you write a book. Then you have to
write the cover, jacket, content for it, the back cover.
How do you describe this book? What is the goal
of this book? And when emotions get into these debates
and they frequently do it writers festivals and readings and
things like that, that there's two things you need to
be aware of one is staying on script, so I
(12:27):
don't get dragged into impassioned debates. When people use emotion
and start to attack you, that usually means they're coming
from a place of fear or weakness. So you might
be shaking the tree so much they're being defensive without
even realizing it. Sometimes, so you need to be gentled
with big topics about how you say to people. Look,
you believe this. What I'm saying is maybe you should
(12:47):
just open up the borders and believe that. Don't take
them to their just baby steps. So I find when
people get really emotional, I sit back, I slowed down
the way I talk. I reflect back to them what
they're saying is in like, so, I'm hearing you quite
emotional about this subject. I hear this is the point
of debate. I stand and I believe this. You believe
(13:09):
that where do you want to go from here? And
to have that presence of the mind it can be
really unsettling for some people. And then what you'll see
is two things will happen. One is that they'll kind
of wind back a bit and then start to have
a bit more open discussion, or second, they'll attack you
personally because they're not getting through on their intellectual level
and they're not getting their point across. So they start
to say something about your background, what do you know,
(13:31):
you were just a soldier or something like that. And
as soon as it becomes personal, and you've already won,
not that it should be a contest of winning it losing.
As soon as they start to make it personal, not
about the message and about the intent, then you know
that they don't have anything left in their armory.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Yeah. Yeah, those were some great strategies tactics. But what
I really really loved about your answer was, you know,
when somebody attacked you personally look at them and think, wow,
they must be scared or you know, uncertain, or you know,
there there's something going on with I'm you know, I'm
really I feel for this person. There's something wrong there.
(14:09):
And just like turning that instead of instead of responding
with anger and fear, recognizing their their dilemma and and
showing some in in some ways, you're showing an empathy
for that. Yeah, I hear that that you're really scared.
I love that answer. I think that's a that's that's
incredibly powerful, just to reframe how you see people so
(14:34):
I want to talk about feedback. We're talking about you know,
don't kind of don't listen to this this kind of
negative like that, you know, let go of the let
go of the cruelness that people can throw at you.
But what about real feedback, whether it's positive or negative.
A lot of people their book goes out on Amazon,
and I'm I haven't read all the reviews on your
(14:56):
on your latest book, but I'm guessing some people I
don't like it because it's not in agreement with what
they are.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
How do you.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Determine what feedback you're going to take and what feedback
you're going to reject without flavoring it with your own bias.
Does that make sense that question?
Speaker 2 (15:20):
It's almost back to the same answer I'll give about
when somebody's giving you feedback in real time, I separate
the message from the person and the delivery. So if
I've got something to say about is it actually incorrect
the way that I've written something, that's the first piece
of me back I'll always take on Lord. So if
somebody correct me and they can back that up, absolutely,
I change on the spot. If it's personal feedback and
(15:42):
they're one event because they're angry with the world and
I've just stabilized them. Then I take that on the
chin as well too, because that's the inchange of the
book to the Middle America and the people like yourself
and myself who are willing to talk about these topics.
It's not quite as impassioned a debate because we're kind
of already there and we're trying to work out we
pick up a book like this because we're looking to
affect change and we feel like we'd be part of
(16:03):
something that it's been shown to so many people. It's like, no, no,
this is for the government to handle. You guys, just
sit back. We got this, and that's not the case.
This is a debate, much like Rosa Parks sitting on
a bus and not getting up. This is the current
version of that and the way that she became this
lynchpin of civil rights movement. Every single person out there
with social media channels who shares this interview, shares their
(16:25):
review of the book for good or bad, is participating
in some sense around change. So some people don't want change,
and I understand that. I mean, when I was younger,
I liked my life being really simple. In the military,
I get out now, and I find inherently as I
get older, like my Ted talk, the uncomfortable truth between
right and wrong was my Ted talk, because there's a
(16:45):
lot of grain in the world. You know, my government
gave me a gun at the age of seventeen and said,
at some stage we might cash in this blank check
you wrote for your life to serve your country, and
I'm fortunately just serve as the peacekeeper. You know, these
we have these responsibilities, right And I think that if
somebody comes up to me and just says, look, I
(17:06):
didn't like it and here's why, and they can say
it really rationally, that's really useful for me as well too.
And it really does guide interviews like this as well,
where I kind of slow down and I want to
see the pace you're coming at this, how much energy
and you're investing in this interview? Is there something you
want to get off your chest? Which I've found quite
a lot in the past couple of weeks. But I
always thank people. I've had two Amazon reviews where people
(17:27):
have just said I'm gonna put this up. They've emailed
me through my website and I said, put it up.
You know that you don't like it, and you disagree
and it's hate language in your book. That's fantastic. Put
it up because I believe in free speech people being
held accountable for it, and believe myself. You don't like
what I wrote, tell me why, and if it's rational,
I will celebrate that as much as I celebrate how
happy I am with the book.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yeah, I like that, Thank you. So one thing I'm
curious about in the week in the Wok Paradox, you
talk about a bridging divides. So can you talk a
little bit about this and how bridging divides, how you
as a nonfiction author working towards bridging divides through your rating.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, it's actually that was my original goal with this
whole project was working at a framework for how we
can bring people to the table from different sides to
actually discuss this without all of the passion to take
a big rational step back to agree on common ground. So,
and that was what my mom did as a politician
in the local area where I grew up, was that
(18:32):
she'd have both parties coming in and actually vuying for
her vote, which would sway a whole region and be
offering better schools, better roads, whatever it might be, tax
cuts and she'd end up getting them boat at the table,
both bringing something not quite as much as they originally offered,
but everyone kind of getting a middle ground. And I
really respected that, and in doing this book, all the
(18:53):
research in the background on it, I would sit there
and I'd go and see someone on the right, and
the next thing I do is go and see someone
on the left with what I've just heard over there,
knowing full well I'm going to hear over here, and
then be able to reflect some of what I heard
on the right, the essence of it, which was something
like looking after safe societies and school education. Soon at
(19:14):
the moment they say on the left, education and safest
streets is where we're at, it's like, well, that's interesting
because the right agrees, and you see their faces sometimes
because they'd be really thrown because people get so brought
into their sides that they choose. And this is the
problem with a strip party system. If someone says yes
on the left, you've got to say no on the right,
because that's how two party politics works, and that's not
(19:34):
how it works. It is to actually say, look, so
you care about schools, You care about schools, you care
about crime, you care about crime, you care about opportunity.
You care about opportunity. Let's start there, not just the
people who are our elected officials, but everything from the
people on the streets who are marginalized, people like you
and I in the middle, who are just like, well,
what can we do? Point us in the right directions
(19:56):
with the information set us free. So that's I think
divides is you need to understand common ground first before
you can actually start to get people to start broaching gaps.
And as soon as you're clear on that and you've
got confirmation from both sides that this is true, that's
where it gets really exciting and it moves really fast.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Yeah, that's really useful. Thank you so much, Chris. So
where can we learn more about you? And where can
we find your books?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
So books are on Barnes and Noble and Amazon for
the most part, I do everything through Amazon. It's a
lot easier. But yeah, Chris Reese dot Co is my website.
It's got links to all my five books, and I
have a blog up there and if anyone has questions
reach out. There's a contact form on the website. And
always happy to discuss this stuff as.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Always brilliant Chris. Thank you very much for coming. It's
been fabulous to have you. I've really enjoyed listening to
your ideas. You've given our audience some really good advice today.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Thank you, thank you, thank you for having.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Me absolutely all right, everyone, thank you for joining us
on Author Nation Interviews. I hope conversation that's provided you with,
you know, some strength and resilience, some ideas on how
to really write about your you know, your way you
want to change the world without as much fear of
(21:15):
backlash and negative feedback.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Because we're all going to get it.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Not everyone likes me, not everyone likes Chris, not everyone
likes you, and that's just the way it is. Don't
forget to visit authornation dot online for a wealth of
resources designed to support your journey as a nonfiction author.
And of course, we greatly appreciate your feedback. If you
have enjoyed this episode today and I know you have,
(21:39):
consider leaving a comment, leaving a review, and don't forget
to share it with someone who you know is writing
a book that might get some backlash, who really needs
to hear this and your participation helps us continue delivering
insights and tools that you need to succeed, So keep writing,
(22:03):
keep creating, and continue sharing your unique stories with the world.
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