August 8, 2025 • 47 mins
Divorcing Without A Lawyer – Is it really possible? Join Kim Korven, BA, JD, LLM, and experienced Mediator, as she shares empowering insights on navigating divorce without legal representation. Learn how to resolve conflict with confidence and clarity. Hosted by Tina Huggins, Divorce & "Narcissist Conflict" Specialist, on The Awakening show — only on NEWStreamingNetwork.com. More
About Tina: Tina Huggins, CTA Life Coach certified, CDC Divorce Coach, CDC Transitions Coach, CDC Recovery Coach, TKG Restorative Family Mediator Certified, TKG Family Circle Certified. I have coached for over 30 years coming from the background of law enforcement and self-defense instructor.
Connect with Tina:
Email: coachtinalynn@gmail.com
Website: https://divorcecoachspecialist.
More about Kim: A retired lawyer with 25 years of experience, Kim Korven is a mediator, divorce educator, and creator of the "My Lawyer Free Divorce Course." With a background in law, mediation, family dynamics and farming, she empowers families to navigate divorce with dignity and love—without relying on lawyers. Her pragmatic, caring voice guides clients to remember they're the CEOs of their families, creating fair outcomes and lasting peace.
Connect with Kim:
kim@kimkorven.com
https://www.gentlewaydivorce.com
About Tina: Tina Huggins, CTA Life Coach certified, CDC Divorce Coach, CDC Transitions Coach, CDC Recovery Coach, TKG Restorative Family Mediator Certified, TKG Family Circle Certified. I have coached for over 30 years coming from the background of law enforcement and self-defense instructor.
Connect with Tina:
Email: coachtinalynn@gmail.com
Website: https://divorcecoachspecialist.
More about Kim: A retired lawyer with 25 years of experience, Kim Korven is a mediator, divorce educator, and creator of the "My Lawyer Free Divorce Course." With a background in law, mediation, family dynamics and farming, she empowers families to navigate divorce with dignity and love—without relying on lawyers. Her pragmatic, caring voice guides clients to remember they're the CEOs of their families, creating fair outcomes and lasting peace.
Connect with Kim:
kim@kimkorven.com
https://www.gentlewaydivorce.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to WGSNDB Going Solo Network Singles talk radio channel,
where we take a lighthearted and candidate approach to discussions
on the journey of relationship, laws, divorce, parenting, being single, relationships, building, dating,
and yes sex. Join our listeners and begin living your
best life.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hello and welcome to my show The Awakening here on WGSNDB,
the Going Bold and Going Solo Network. The information and
opinions expressed on this show are just that, the opinions
of the individual speaking based on their individual personal experience.
(00:47):
They are not intended to diagnose and do not constitute
professional advice or recommendations. So you know the pain, the stress,
the struggle that divorcing men and women go through while
there is a way to peace, sanity, all while assisting
your attorney through their legal process. This can save you
thousands of dollars. My name is Tina Huggins. I'm your
(01:08):
divorce coach, specialist, divorce planning specialist, restorative family mediator, and
conflictal co parenting coach and I am excited about today
because my guest speaker is a retired lawyer with twenty
five years of experience. Kim Corvin Kim is a mediator,
a divorce educator, and creator of the My Lawyer Free
(01:33):
Divorce Coach. With the background in law mediation, family dynamics,
and farming, she empowers families to navigate divorce with dignity
and love without relying on lawyers. Her pragmatic, caring voice
guides clients to remember the fact that they're the CEO
(01:57):
of their own families, creating fair outcomes and lasting piece.
So I'm excited for our talk today, Kim, So thank
you for joining me.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Well, thank you for having me, Tina. It's a real
joy to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
So, as I was prepping for this today and getting
everything down in the notes, I kind of reread everything
and so I find that it's interesting that you feel
that they should be able to divorce without relying on
their attorney or a attorney. So tell me why you
feel that's an important one coming in from being a
lawyer for so long.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Exactly, it's not what one would expect from somebody with
a legal background. Right now, When divorce was tossed into
the courts in the eighteen fifties, when you think of
the population then, most people did not know how to
read right There was no Wi Fi. Women were still
(02:59):
property and there was much more difference given to experts.
The reality about divorce is it didn't start out as
a legal issue, you know, because government doesn't care about
things you and I do in our homes that aren't
causing trouble. They only get involved when something's happening and
(03:23):
it's creating issues for society. So marriages were ending before
government was involved, before there were any legal rules, before
it went to court. And we're a much more educated population.
And really, when you approach divorce as a life transition,
(03:46):
because that's really what it is, you can solve a
lot of the things yourselves. Now what people often don't realize,
like when you get married. When you got married, Tina,
did you go and get your marriage license right away
or what did you do first?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
So the first time when I got married, because that
was military, we had to do some military stuff, so
it was actually done at the courthouse. Now my second time,
we had a ceremony and several years later we actually
did the legal end of that and we went and
did that at the courthouse, just signed the paperwork and
(04:29):
gave it to him.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Yeah. So I mean most people they get engaged and
they start planning the event, and they do the legality
you like most people do the legality. You get your
marriage license like within the month, but for the service
and your example, right, you had the service, you had
(04:51):
the fun ceremony, right the gathering, and then years later
you took care of the legalities. And if you've ever
thought of experienced a death in the family, the first
thing that happens. People do not apply for letters probate.
(05:12):
As soon as somebody dies. Often there's a wake or
a service, there's an honoring of the human being, and
then the legalities are dealt with. It's a much more humane,
empowering way to do it. And I'm just saying, you know,
use the same approach with divorce. You can. You've got
(05:34):
there's information out there beyond the my lawyer free divorce course, right, so.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, we I don't know, I know, And when I'm
working with my clients, I advise them right off the
bat not to bring on a lawyer in the very
beginning part because especially where my clients being in high
conflict aspects anyways, the sooner you bring on a lawyer,
which they're probably going to need and they're going to
(06:02):
need a litigative lawyer. That litigative lawyer can cause their
own conflict unnecessarily, but if they're really good at their job,
they jump when you have problems, and it just costs
lots of money and it causes so much conflict. So
I always want my clients to wait. So when you
and I met and I got to hear about your
lawyer free divorce course, I was like, Wow, there's a
(06:26):
concept that people don't think about at all, because what's
the first thing they do when they think a divorce
rock right into any divorce lawyer's office, and oftentimes it's
the wrong lawyer for their specific situation.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Well, and it's their family and friends who're telling them
you need to protect your legal rights and it And
I agree with you, like I have a similar approach
with my mediation clients. And what's interesting, like Amanda Ripley
wrote a book called High Conflict, and she says there's
(07:04):
got to be four factors present for any kind of
dispute to go high conflict, and three of them applied
to divorce right. And one is you have a community
of people saying right, who are supporting the conflict, supporting
you in it. So that's family and friends, going hire
(07:25):
a lawyer. That's the only way to do it. Hire
a good litigator. The other one is there's a conflict preneur,
which is someone who's making money off the conflict. Now
a lawyer would say, no, no, no, that's not my
prime primary purpose, and it's not. But the lawyer's primary
(07:48):
purpose is being a zealous advocate protecting their clients' legal rights.
So by the nature of the lawyer's duty to the client,
they are a conflict preneur. Right, it isn't about what
the client wants, it's about your legal rights. And then
(08:09):
if one person in the conflict ends up feeling humiliated,
you know, so the person who served with a divorce
petition feels humiliation, and then you know, we have the
real high conflicts. So, yeah, it's easier if the lawyers
stay out of it at the start.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Yeah, I am. I think one, they shouldn't be be
there in the beginning. I try to help my clients,
you know, get organized for the attorney before we go
to the attorney, and by then I usually know what
type of lawyer they're going to need, because my clients
more than likely are going to need a litigative lawyer,
(08:53):
And I like when I said earlier about a good
litigative lawyer jumps on things. I have one that I
work with in Colorado, and I am also working with
the client, and so we her and I she's like,
oh gosh, if I say anything to him, he's right
on top of it. And so and it costs her,
(09:14):
you know, several hundred dollars for him to follow through
with that, So her and I take care of all
of the sidelines. Is now doing the communication with the
X and with the ex's attorney, just making sure that
her attorney knows this is what's taking place and keeping
everything above water that way. And then when it's time,
(09:36):
he already has all the documentation and he's ready to jump.
But now he's not jumping on one thing. He's jumping
on a series of a few things so that it's
not Penny Nickel and diming the client to death.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Well, I know, like I've I've worked well my favorite
lawyer to send people to she retired. But you know
something else I encourage my clients to do if they're
working with lawyers, is you know, have a folder where
you know, they gather things like emails and text messages
(10:14):
and save them in one folder. So instead of sending
each one separately to the lawyer and being built zero
point ten of an hour, which could be fifty dollars,
you send six and maybe get billed fifty dollars instead
of three hundred. And you know, something I've noticed in
my practice is that there are times when I've worked
(10:38):
with real high conflict families when they've been able to settle.
And part of that is because they don't have lawyers involved, right,
And the other part is that whole element of humiliation
(11:00):
and playing the you know, like I believe that hurt people,
hurt people, and we're all just doing the best we can.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Yeah, And that that's where, you know, I try to
explain this to some people, the person that asks for
the divorce has already gone through a series of starting
the healing process already, because they've already thought about it.
They've gone through the fears and the hurt and the anger,
(11:36):
whether they expressed any of that to their partner or not,
they've been lulling that over and over in their head
for for maybe months or even years, like in my
case it was years. And so by the time we
hand that that summons for divorce over to our partner.
(11:57):
They're just starting that. So now they're clear down here
where we're clear up here on our dealing and grieving process,
and they're just starting that. And once they start that,
then we've got all of this stuff. And so I
recommend that you don't even tell your mate in the
very beginning process of getting things started. Gather all your documentation,
(12:20):
work with the coach if that's who you're working with,
or work with somebody like yourself, that they have the
checklist of everything they're going to need, and then and
then they're ready to file for the divorce, and then
they have an exit plan in place, whether that means
that they're going to exit the home, or their partner's
(12:40):
going to exit the home, or whether they know whether
they can even live in the same home until this
is done. I have lots of attorneys that don't recommend
that you leave the home, but in my case with
my clients, my clients are being abused well.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
And like I you know, and yeah, I'm a retired lawyer,
and I remember about twenty five years ago talking to
a police officer about a situation and she said to me, Kim,
you can always replace the house, you can't replace the person.
And it was this light bulb moment that, like the
(13:18):
legal entitlement to the home doesn't disappear because you leave it,
it continues to exist. And like over half of the
women who are murdered and happens in their homes. So
I'm like you, it's like if your instincts are saying
(13:39):
this is a dangerous place for you, like even if
your head saying no, no, no, I'm okay, it's all
going to be okay. But if you've got the sensations
in your body, you can't be replaced. Leave right.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
And I think that's very important because it's you know,
I work with post separation abuse as well, and the
most dangerous time in an abusive relationship is the moment
you go to leave. And that's whether you are physically
leaving saying you're going to leave, or you wrote it
down and your partner finds that. And that happened to me.
(14:19):
I ended up with a broken hand that that day.
I had written it down because I was working with
a therapist and I don't know where I had left
my notebook or whether he got my notebook out of
my bag, but I had written down that I was
planning on this exit or whatever it was, and that
(14:40):
night I ended up with a broken hand and separated rooms.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
And I mean, I've seen, like I haven't experienced the
physical violence myself, but of course within my professional life,
oh yes, and it isn't in the woman's head. And
it's it's interesting, like one of the one of the
(15:08):
ways that I help people is I have this little
work book, how do I tell my husband I want
to divorce and keep the peace. And it's based on
like I had a husband with a bad temper, and
I knew, you know, he loves the kids. I love
(15:29):
the kids. Kids are always going to love both of us,
and I didn't. He didn't find out we were separating
by being served right, because that would have just escalated everything,
and his family there was money to fight. What I
did was I actually, you know, in that limbo stage
(15:51):
of should I stay should I go, I'd asked myself
a series of questions, right, you know, and and one
of them was, well, when did I first know that
this wasn't going to work? You know? And it happened
to me when he proposed because we were in vaf
(16:13):
and he proposes and I'm living one hundred percent in
my head then, and my body immediately screamed say no, right,
like everything in me screamed at me, say no. And
I'm sitting there thinking, if I say no, he's going
to cry. I don't know how to deal with it.
If he's going to cry, that's just oh yuck. Oh
(16:35):
I can't cope with that. And then I thought of
the eight hour drive home, and I thought that's going
to be so awkward. So all of this in a
split second, and then I'm like, well, how bad could
it be? Right? So I didn't listen to my instincts
and I said yes. And you know, another one of
(16:57):
the questions is about what are your three best memories?
And that one I use with my mediation clients, and
of course what often happens and they share them, is
often the best memories are from the life before children,
(17:22):
because after the children come, you just kind of start
You've got no energy for this spouse, right, sure, you remember,
It's like, now, all my attention was on the kids
in my career, and same for you know, my spouse,
my husband. And it's really interesting when you have a
(17:43):
discussion with that in mind. It's hard to blame the
other person, and it shifts the dynamic, right because when
all the good memories and then it's been like fifteen years,
there's been no all the good memories have involved entire family.
(18:04):
It helps people process, It helps that other person catch up,
and of course when you're not feeling humiliated and you're not,
it lessens the fear and makes it easier for people
to get to make better decisions.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
So I kind of want our viewers to know too,
because there's a couple of things that you said here
that that fit for my late husband. Not all people,
especially abused people are are women. Men get abused by
their spouse, their wives as well, if they're in a
(18:47):
marriage that it's a man and a woman, and if
they're both men, then obviously somebody can be abusive to
the other person. And so in my late husband's you
know life you were talking about, you knew, you knew
that you should shouldn't you didn't want to be in
the relationship when he proposed. That was exactly what happened
(19:09):
with my late husband. Is he he had started seeing
her and fell in love with her son, which he
later adopted, and during that timeframe she got pregnant with
his first son, and so he felt obligated. But he
said the wedding was disastrous, was horrible. He hated it,
(19:31):
and he wanted to jump off the ship for their honeymoon.
He says he could never do anything right. He never
could do anything right. From the moment he asked her
to get married. Everything went downhill from there. So men
can experience the same stuff as well.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Yeah, And why I phrase it, I totally agree. Why
I phrase it as how to tell my husband I
want a divorce is because most divorces, they're initiated by
the wife. They are the people doing the doom scrolling
at three am. So but it's I mean, every year
(20:15):
there's at least two men who I end up working with,
you know, as a mediator or as a divorced strategist,
that it's a really abusive relationship. Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
And the sad part. You know, some of the statistics
out there, they say that women are one in every
three that get abused, but for men it's one in
every four and less men report that. Now, we're not
necessarily talking about physical abuse, but in most cases when
(20:52):
they're reported, it is physical abuse. My my father never
reported his but he was shot at several times, and
then when I picked him up out of the hospital,
the last time she drove over him and my late husband,
his ex bit him so bad it made his shirt
(21:12):
extremely bloody. And so that's how he went in the
next day, is he went in to report that, and
then he started the process and got her out of
the home. But then he got afraid. And this is
kind of what I did, is I ended up afraid,
and I ended up back in the home, and that
(21:36):
specific day I attempted suicide. So those are kind of
things that happen. We get fearful of their attacks, verbal
attacks from a distance, even though there was a restraining
order in place, and we just feel like, oh my gosh,
if I don't bring them back in, they're going to
(21:57):
be horrible when this is all over. And the reality
is is if you drop those charges, that abuse is
going to be worse on the other end of drop
charges than it will be on the other end of
dealing with the divorce with the restraining order in place.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
No, I believe it. It's like there's a whole I mean,
of course, the most dangerous relationships are where there's what's
called coercive control is present, and those are you know
(22:38):
that they started out this was real Prince Charming or
just the woman of your dreams, completely lovely, like completely lovely,
just so giving and so wonderful enough, just understands me completely,
and things move in the relationship very very quickly. They
(23:03):
also the abuser undermines your relationships with your support network,
right and it's very very subtle. I mean it can
be very overt too in terms of the control, Like
you're five minutes late and you're accused of having an affair,
(23:28):
or you go and buy groceries and your spouse, you know,
reimburses you, and your spouse yells at you because you
bought chips and refuses to reimburse you for those, and
it's it's so you're alone, so you completely doubt yourself.
(23:49):
Now what's interesting is, well, what really makes me sad
is I talk to a lot of people who are
working with a therapist and they have no idea that
in an abusive relationship.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I was one of those, right.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Like, because like I'll spot it talking to somebody. I
was chatting with a fellow this morning and he kept apologizing.
Even for a Canadian, it was excessive, right, And he
(24:27):
said a few other things, and I'm like, okay, m
h m hm. So it's you really really doubt yourself.
And I see a lot of not a lot, but
there's a towel with it. And you might have noticed
this in mediation too. In coercive control, you'll have one
(24:51):
partner who's really articulate and charming and they make so
much sense, right, and they're just reasonable, they're just great
to talk to. And then you have the other spouse
who can come across as whiny and indecisive and they
might have been diagnosed recently with ADHD or depression, right,
(25:15):
and they're just you know, they're micromanagers to an extreme level.
And as a lawyer, when i'd have those clients, I
never knew, Oh, it's coercive control. But with mediation I
see it because the person who's the micromanager they know
the facts like that, you know, and the other person
(25:37):
who's so charming, they're just skimming the surface. They don't
have the details. And so I talk with people like
that and I'm just okay, this is abusive.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
It's very noticeable when you start talking with people like
you said, apologize several times that's like key number one,
and I get my clients to stop saying I'm sorry.
They can apologize, and they shouldn't apologize for their actions,
but apologize for how their actions made you feel, so
(26:19):
that they are not taking responsibility for that person's actions.
But you're right, that's one of the very first things
that we see in people that are dealing with coheresive
control is is they apologize a lot.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
And and I say, I, now, oh yeah, depression. Oh
I was just diagnosed with ADHD okay, m h yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
So you and I have a very similar way of mediating.
Even though you weren't trained in the restorative side, your
mediation aspects are very similar to the way I do things.
And then we talked earlier about how lawyers come in
and when they come into mediation, it's like, oh my gosh,
(27:09):
mediation slows down. It's like you hit this brick wall.
And so if if my clients decide they need to
have attorneys, I do a fish bowl effect. I don't
allow the attorneys to talk during the mediation process. I
tell them that if you need to talk with your client,
will take a recess then you can talk with them.
(27:32):
But there's going to be no no stalling or stopping
things unless I feel we need to bring the lawyers
in with ideas of how we can get over a hurdle.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Well, and you know mediation, you know, for so long
it's been oh, just just treat divorce and mediation like
it's a business transaction, you know. And that's the message
that lawyers give to their clients too. And of course,
if you don't deal with the emotions, you're not going
(28:10):
to be able to settle anything because if you don't
trust this person, and it's really giving them the opportunity,
as you say, even if attorneys are there, it's the
clients need to speak. It's not having your attorney be
your advocate. No, that's that's appropriate for the courtroom. That's
(28:35):
where an attorney does the best job. And I've always
remembered the first small claims we have. I don't know
if you have small claims court, yeah, right, so my
first trial, and of course going through law school in
the early nineteen nineties, I thought court was the absolute
best way to resolve any dispute. You know, you have, yeah,
(28:59):
you have somebody impartial, like it was just so beautiful
and none of those icky emotions getting in. So I
end up with this small claims trial and my client
it was all over. He'd built a fence around a
(29:22):
rented lot. His daughter and grandkids lived there. The landowner
had said beforehand they would pay for the fence. Landowner,
after the fence was built, refused to pay. So my
client takes them to court, and our first meeting he
mentions his daughter and grandkids and it's a busy street.
(29:42):
So we are successful in court, other than the fact
that the court did not order him taxes that he'd
paid on the materials. And I am so excited. Look
at this. I'm a good advocate. We won, justice has
prevailed all of it, and I phoned him to discuss
(30:07):
our success. He's furious the judge didn't listen to me.
I cannot believe this. This is a travesty. You know,
if he'd listened to me, he would have given me
back to the taxes on this. It was less than
one hundred dollars. And he's wanting to appeal, and I'm like,
(30:28):
what is going on here? This is this? This is
not like you should be happy. I'm just thinking, right,
and so I put I thought about this for a
lot a lot, a lot, and one day when I
was out walking, it came to me. Oh and so
the next time I spoke with him, I asked him,
(30:51):
I said, why did you build a fence? Right, I
thought back to our first conversation, and I said, wasn't
it to keep your grandkids safe? He relaxed them, and
(31:11):
he was happy with the decision. And of course what
had happened was with the legal process, what was most
important to him was completely ignored. It was not part
of the language, it didn't fit within the legal issues,
so it was dropped. So the issue that was most
(31:32):
important to him, that's not what the court decided. So
of course he was angry, but once he remembered, oh, yeah,
I built it to keep the grandkids safe, and they're
giving me back most of my money and all as well.
So that experience really shifted things for me in terms
(31:56):
of decision making. But you know, I'm kind of a
slow learner. So after we separated, I went back to
law school to get my master's because it was something
I'd always wanted to do, and I had a job researching.
I got a job for a couple of props on
(32:20):
you know, settlement and business and commercial disputes alternative dispute resolution,
and I came across the statistic that said ninety percent
of business and commercial disputes are settled without any involvement
from lawyers, and I remember thinking, don't they like us? Defy,
(32:48):
that's a lawyer. Don't they like us? Oh?
Speaker 2 (32:54):
How could this be?
Speaker 3 (32:55):
I get it now? And what was interesting though, is
in that with that job, I learned that when people
negotiate and come to a resolution, even if it is
not strictly speaking, legally binding, they are much more likely
(33:19):
to do it because they put the effort into negotiating it,
and they have agreed to it, and it is their
integrity on the line. And I also like, like, I think,
so if ninety percent of business and commercial disputes can
settle without lawyers, there's a lot more family law disputes,
(33:40):
divorce cases that can settle out lawyers.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
That would be wonderful if they could. You know, like
I had said before, I wait, we wait to bring
on the attorney until after everything's all organized. We don't
have to pay the attorney to do that. But in
the case with my clients there two b X is
not turning in their financials they are not doing anything
(34:11):
their court ordered to do, and so we have to
have somebody that is able to push and get things done.
We just need to. Like I said, I work with
this wonderful lawyer in Colorado that he doesn't think about
how much it's costing the client. He just does a
hell of a job at taking care of his client.
(34:31):
He just does it and it can be quite the
cost to the client. So we have to we have
to pull the reins back on him because he loves
his work so much. And it would be it would
be a plus to have somebody like that if you
needed them well.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
And so there's there's a couple of different ways to
bring something to a conclusion when you have somebody who's
really controlling. And the first way is before lawyers, you
go to a mediator like you or like me, because
what happens. They want to be liked, They want to
(35:13):
be a good guy or this woman who's just a
great human being. And so if you get them soon enough,
they're going to be more interested. You know, there's fewer
outside influences. I know one couple I worked with, it
was actually quite lovely that he had a coworker who
was spending. I think who had spent one hundred thousand
(35:36):
dollars on a divorce and it wasn't yet settled. So
my client was like, look at me, I'm going to win.
I can you know? He didn't say that, No, that
was part of his rationale for settlement. And he actually
agreed to pay more spousal support and for a longer
time than when he originally talked to me. Okay, and
(36:01):
we focused, you know, on life for the kids, and
the kids were adults, and it was just it was
a beautiful thing. The other way to bring it to
a close is with an attorney like you mentioned, because
as soon as the controller feels a little bit humiliated,
(36:22):
they dig in and they will use the court process
to perpetuate the abuse. So you really really need somebody strong,
and I'm thinking we represent. Like a few years ago,
(36:45):
I got a message on Facebook, Hey Kim, do you
remember me? And it's this former client when I was
a junior on her file with a husband who was
not paying child support, was not paying spellal support owed
in hundreds of thousands of dollars and we brought an
application for contempt. So contempt is if you do not
(37:07):
follow a court order. If you're found in contempt, you
can go to jail. So it's a two day hearing
and the second day, after lunch, there's an RCMP officer
in the back of the courtroom and the judge called
a recess and the RCMP officer police officer goes up
to this gentleman and says, I want your shoelaces, your wallet,
(37:29):
and your belt. And so this woman when she said
do you remember me, Kim, I'm like, well, I only
ever had one RCMP officer in the back of the
courtroom asking a fellow for his belt, right, So yes,
I remember you. And she thanked me because that was
(37:52):
the moment when her ex decided I better start paying her.
I'm going to jail right right and then. And but
the other thing is if you don't have millions of
dollars to fight, it's really about like one thing I
help my clients with My background is judo, right, which
(38:15):
is maximum efficiency with minimum effort. So I'm coaching somebody
it's all about what do you really need? Like, what
do you want? What does winning look like for you?
And it doesn't have to match the what the lawyers
tell you is for you won and what does it
(38:36):
look like for him? So negotiation is very very different
because we're playing on what he wants so that he
doesn't know that you know. So it's always right, like
you never stop. You never start negotiation with your bottom
(38:58):
line because they're going to push you down more. And
it's is there and there might be something of his
or hers that they really really love and want to
keep and that you don't care about. But can you
make an argument why you want it? Right? So you
(39:19):
can give up something and you're much more likely to
get something that's important to you.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Give and tank, give and tank.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Right, Because in that abusive situation, you're thinking, if I
just I'll just go along with this and it'll all
be good. I'll just be reasonable. And there's some attorneys
who go, okay, let's start with reasonable. Doesn't work. But
people also have to know how much they're willing to
(39:51):
spend on the attorney and when to quit right.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Sometimes because of that out.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Right, because of sunk costs bias, they're going to keep
spending and they might spend more than they're going to
get in property, and that doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
True true, So we're already coming to a close already
and you and I could probably go on for another
hour at least. So all of your contact information will
be at the bottom of the show. But can you
tell people how to find you and how to find
your course.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
So my website is Kimcorvin dot com and the course
is there, and the course takes you through like how
to get on the same page so that you can
actually communicate more effectively. It has a module like, here's
all the information you need to gather. Here's translating the
legal terms into Plane English, so you can actually have
(40:51):
a conversation where the language doesn't have you hyperventilating, so
you can make good decisions. There's a module on separation
agreement with some templates. There's a module on filling in
court forms. And so you don't live where I live, well,
that's okay. Here's how you find the court forms where
you live to apply for divorce preferably together. That's the
(41:16):
simplest with the separation agreement attached. And then some more resources,
you know, like all the different types of professionals you
could work with. Here's what you could expect to spend
if you work with lawyers. Because even if like you
do the course and it helps put you in a
(41:36):
better place. So you can work with a divorce coach
and you understand the concepts, you resolve three of the
six issues, you've saved a lot of money, and so
the course is there. And there's also on my website
a ritual for divorce which helps people actually move through that.
(41:59):
What are our best memories and so they can make
better decisions. But yes, that is best place, best place
to find me.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Okay, awesome. So for our viewers, I'm a certified divorce coach,
meaning that I'm training the complexities of divorce. I've also
experienced abuse. I watched my father go through abuse. I
witnessed my late husband go through abuse. So not only
do I know it textbookly, I also know it physically.
(42:31):
So you can find me or contact me through my
email at Coach Tina Lynn at gmail. That's co O
a c h t I n A l y n
N at gmail dot com. My website is Divorcecoachspecialist dot com.
You can also find me on social media Facebook under
Tina Lynn Huggins that's h U G G I n S.
(42:54):
LinkedIn under Tina Huggins Instagram under divorce Coach Tina Lynn
on TikTok under divorce Tina. So one of the things
I like here at the end, Kim, is to ask
for you to give our viewers your last bit of advice.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
The one thing that could save you so much money
and stress and keep you safe is if you can
be curious not furious. Love that. So instead of going no,
I don't believe you, or that's wrong, say oh I
haven't thought of it that way before. Tell me more.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
I like that. Curious not furious.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Be curious, not curious.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
So in my advice here is that Kim is one
of two retired lawyers that are in my back pocket.
And I haven't known Kim long enough enough to be
able to actually get to work with her yet, but
the other retired attorney I work with her quite frequently
with my clients. I think having Kim as somebody that
(44:12):
you can go to and ask questions, pay for her
time and ask questions and get yourself clear about where
you're headed, especially if you're doing this pro sae, which
is kind of what Kim is suggesting here. Having Kim
in your back pocket being able to ask questions is huge.
(44:32):
So I want you to remember Kim's name and go
to her website and find that information out, because being
able to ask her and pay for time saves you money,
is opposed to just going to your lawyer and handing
off the divorce to the lawyer. So one of the
(44:53):
things that I like to cover here is that as
we go, and you heard me talk earlier about my
at time to suicide. Suicide is something that some of
us get to, that suicidal ideation, and so if you
are contemplating or feeling like you're in that place right now,
please call the National Suicide Prevention Hotline. This is here
(45:13):
in the US at nine eight eight. The Netherlands offers
the same help at one one three. And Kim, do
you guys have a National Suicide Prevention hotline there in Canada?
I don't even know, Okay, So that's something we'll have
to look up. I'm going to if if you are
(45:35):
in a situation that you need the police there now
here in the States, please call nine one one, and
it's nine nine nine in Europe, in the UK and
in the Netherlands it's one one two. So you want
to get the police there, you want to press charges,
do not remove those charges. Those charges are your key
out of the abuse. Oftentimes when you drop those charges,
(45:58):
the abuse that came before the charges were placed is
much worse after the charges are dropped. This is your
key out. It's a safe time. The domestic violence hotline
is eight hundred seven nine nine seven two three three.
That number again is eight hundred seventy seven ninety nine
seventy two thirty three. And I ask that you please
(46:21):
like this, comment on it and share so that this
can help others. So I really want to thank you
for being here and talking with me today, Kim. This
has been an awesome conversation.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
Thank you. And I just looked up the suicide crisis
line in Canada is nine to eighty eight, so.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Nine eight eight mm hm. I need to make sure
that I remember that so I can put it down
in my notes. So and Ashley, it's the same. Sorry,
as I look back over notes, it's the same exact
one that we've got, so I'll make sure that I
list that as also Canada's number.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
It's really important one to have, So thanks, thank you
for actually for bringing that to my attention.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
So very good. I just think it's important that we
have those important numbers because in the middle of the
night when we're not in a good place. We need
to have somebody that we can talk to for that moment.
And thank you again, Kim, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
You're listening to WGSNDB going Solo Network Singles Talk Radio Channel,
where we take a lighthearted and candidate approach to discussions
on the journey of relationship, laws, divorce, parenting, being single, relationships, building, dating,
and yes sex. Join our listeners and begin living your
best life.
You're listening to WGSNDB Going Solo Network Singles talk radio channel,
where we take a lighthearted and candidate approach to discussions
on the journey of relationship, laws, divorce, parenting, being single, relationships, building, dating,
and yes sex. Join our listeners and begin living your
best life.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hello and welcome to my show The Awakening here on WGSNDB,
the Going Bold and Going Solo Network. The information and
opinions expressed on this show are just that, the opinions
of the individual speaking based on their individual personal experience.
(00:47):
They are not intended to diagnose and do not constitute
professional advice or recommendations. So you know the pain, the stress,
the struggle that divorcing men and women go through while
there is a way to peace, sanity, all while assisting
your attorney through their legal process. This can save you
thousands of dollars. My name is Tina Huggins. I'm your
(01:08):
divorce coach, specialist, divorce planning specialist, restorative family mediator, and
conflictal co parenting coach and I am excited about today
because my guest speaker is a retired lawyer with twenty
five years of experience. Kim Corvin Kim is a mediator,
a divorce educator, and creator of the My Lawyer Free
(01:33):
Divorce Coach. With the background in law mediation, family dynamics,
and farming, she empowers families to navigate divorce with dignity
and love without relying on lawyers. Her pragmatic, caring voice
guides clients to remember the fact that they're the CEO
(01:57):
of their own families, creating fair outcomes and lasting piece.
So I'm excited for our talk today, Kim, So thank
you for joining me.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Well, thank you for having me, Tina. It's a real
joy to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
So, as I was prepping for this today and getting
everything down in the notes, I kind of reread everything
and so I find that it's interesting that you feel
that they should be able to divorce without relying on
their attorney or a attorney. So tell me why you
feel that's an important one coming in from being a
lawyer for so long.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Exactly, it's not what one would expect from somebody with
a legal background. Right now, When divorce was tossed into
the courts in the eighteen fifties, when you think of
the population then, most people did not know how to
read right There was no Wi Fi. Women were still
(02:59):
property and there was much more difference given to experts.
The reality about divorce is it didn't start out as
a legal issue, you know, because government doesn't care about
things you and I do in our homes that aren't
causing trouble. They only get involved when something's happening and
(03:23):
it's creating issues for society. So marriages were ending before
government was involved, before there were any legal rules, before
it went to court. And we're a much more educated population.
And really, when you approach divorce as a life transition,
(03:46):
because that's really what it is, you can solve a
lot of the things yourselves. Now what people often don't realize,
like when you get married. When you got married, Tina,
did you go and get your marriage license right away
or what did you do first?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
So the first time when I got married, because that
was military, we had to do some military stuff, so
it was actually done at the courthouse. Now my second time,
we had a ceremony and several years later we actually
did the legal end of that and we went and
did that at the courthouse, just signed the paperwork and
(04:29):
gave it to him.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Yeah. So I mean most people they get engaged and
they start planning the event, and they do the legality
you like most people do the legality. You get your
marriage license like within the month, but for the service
and your example, right, you had the service, you had
(04:51):
the fun ceremony, right the gathering, and then years later
you took care of the legalities. And if you've ever
thought of experienced a death in the family, the first
thing that happens. People do not apply for letters probate.
(05:12):
As soon as somebody dies. Often there's a wake or
a service, there's an honoring of the human being, and
then the legalities are dealt with. It's a much more humane,
empowering way to do it. And I'm just saying, you know,
use the same approach with divorce. You can. You've got
(05:34):
there's information out there beyond the my lawyer free divorce course, right, so.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, we I don't know, I know, And when I'm
working with my clients, I advise them right off the
bat not to bring on a lawyer in the very
beginning part because especially where my clients being in high
conflict aspects anyways, the sooner you bring on a lawyer,
which they're probably going to need and they're going to
(06:02):
need a litigative lawyer. That litigative lawyer can cause their
own conflict unnecessarily, but if they're really good at their job,
they jump when you have problems, and it just costs
lots of money and it causes so much conflict. So
I always want my clients to wait. So when you
and I met and I got to hear about your
lawyer free divorce course, I was like, Wow, there's a
(06:26):
concept that people don't think about at all, because what's
the first thing they do when they think a divorce
rock right into any divorce lawyer's office, and oftentimes it's
the wrong lawyer for their specific situation.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Well, and it's their family and friends who're telling them
you need to protect your legal rights and it And
I agree with you, like I have a similar approach
with my mediation clients. And what's interesting, like Amanda Ripley
wrote a book called High Conflict, and she says there's
(07:04):
got to be four factors present for any kind of
dispute to go high conflict, and three of them applied
to divorce right. And one is you have a community
of people saying right, who are supporting the conflict, supporting
you in it. So that's family and friends, going hire
(07:25):
a lawyer. That's the only way to do it. Hire
a good litigator. The other one is there's a conflict preneur,
which is someone who's making money off the conflict. Now
a lawyer would say, no, no, no, that's not my
prime primary purpose, and it's not. But the lawyer's primary
(07:48):
purpose is being a zealous advocate protecting their clients' legal rights.
So by the nature of the lawyer's duty to the client,
they are a conflict preneur. Right, it isn't about what
the client wants, it's about your legal rights. And then
(08:09):
if one person in the conflict ends up feeling humiliated,
you know, so the person who served with a divorce
petition feels humiliation, and then you know, we have the
real high conflicts. So, yeah, it's easier if the lawyers
stay out of it at the start.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Yeah, I am. I think one, they shouldn't be be
there in the beginning. I try to help my clients,
you know, get organized for the attorney before we go
to the attorney, and by then I usually know what
type of lawyer they're going to need, because my clients
more than likely are going to need a litigative lawyer,
(08:53):
And I like when I said earlier about a good
litigative lawyer jumps on things. I have one that I
work with in Colorado, and I am also working with
the client, and so we her and I she's like,
oh gosh, if I say anything to him, he's right
on top of it. And so and it costs her,
(09:14):
you know, several hundred dollars for him to follow through
with that, So her and I take care of all
of the sidelines. Is now doing the communication with the
X and with the ex's attorney, just making sure that
her attorney knows this is what's taking place and keeping
everything above water that way. And then when it's time,
(09:36):
he already has all the documentation and he's ready to jump.
But now he's not jumping on one thing. He's jumping
on a series of a few things so that it's
not Penny Nickel and diming the client to death.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Well, I know, like I've I've worked well my favorite
lawyer to send people to she retired. But you know
something else I encourage my clients to do if they're
working with lawyers, is you know, have a folder where
you know, they gather things like emails and text messages
(10:14):
and save them in one folder. So instead of sending
each one separately to the lawyer and being built zero
point ten of an hour, which could be fifty dollars,
you send six and maybe get billed fifty dollars instead
of three hundred. And you know, something I've noticed in
my practice is that there are times when I've worked
(10:38):
with real high conflict families when they've been able to settle.
And part of that is because they don't have lawyers involved, right,
And the other part is that whole element of humiliation
(11:00):
and playing the you know, like I believe that hurt people,
hurt people, and we're all just doing the best we can.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Yeah, And that that's where, you know, I try to
explain this to some people, the person that asks for
the divorce has already gone through a series of starting
the healing process already, because they've already thought about it.
They've gone through the fears and the hurt and the anger,
(11:36):
whether they expressed any of that to their partner or not,
they've been lulling that over and over in their head
for for maybe months or even years, like in my
case it was years. And so by the time we
hand that that summons for divorce over to our partner.
(11:57):
They're just starting that. So now they're clear down here
where we're clear up here on our dealing and grieving process,
and they're just starting that. And once they start that,
then we've got all of this stuff. And so I
recommend that you don't even tell your mate in the
very beginning process of getting things started. Gather all your documentation,
(12:20):
work with the coach if that's who you're working with,
or work with somebody like yourself, that they have the
checklist of everything they're going to need, and then and
then they're ready to file for the divorce, and then
they have an exit plan in place, whether that means
that they're going to exit the home, or their partner's
(12:40):
going to exit the home, or whether they know whether
they can even live in the same home until this
is done. I have lots of attorneys that don't recommend
that you leave the home, but in my case with
my clients, my clients are being abused well.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
And like I you know, and yeah, I'm a retired lawyer,
and I remember about twenty five years ago talking to
a police officer about a situation and she said to me, Kim,
you can always replace the house, you can't replace the person.
And it was this light bulb moment that, like the
(13:18):
legal entitlement to the home doesn't disappear because you leave it,
it continues to exist. And like over half of the
women who are murdered and happens in their homes. So
I'm like you, it's like if your instincts are saying
(13:39):
this is a dangerous place for you, like even if
your head saying no, no, no, I'm okay, it's all
going to be okay. But if you've got the sensations
in your body, you can't be replaced. Leave right.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
And I think that's very important because it's you know,
I work with post separation abuse as well, and the
most dangerous time in an abusive relationship is the moment
you go to leave. And that's whether you are physically
leaving saying you're going to leave, or you wrote it
down and your partner finds that. And that happened to me.
(14:19):
I ended up with a broken hand that that day.
I had written it down because I was working with
a therapist and I don't know where I had left
my notebook or whether he got my notebook out of
my bag, but I had written down that I was
planning on this exit or whatever it was, and that
(14:40):
night I ended up with a broken hand and separated rooms.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
And I mean, I've seen, like I haven't experienced the
physical violence myself, but of course within my professional life,
oh yes, and it isn't in the woman's head. And
it's it's interesting, like one of the one of the
(15:08):
ways that I help people is I have this little
work book, how do I tell my husband I want
to divorce and keep the peace. And it's based on
like I had a husband with a bad temper, and
I knew, you know, he loves the kids. I love
(15:29):
the kids. Kids are always going to love both of us,
and I didn't. He didn't find out we were separating
by being served right, because that would have just escalated everything,
and his family there was money to fight. What I
did was I actually, you know, in that limbo stage
(15:51):
of should I stay should I go, I'd asked myself
a series of questions, right, you know, and and one
of them was, well, when did I first know that
this wasn't going to work? You know? And it happened
to me when he proposed because we were in vaf
(16:13):
and he proposes and I'm living one hundred percent in
my head then, and my body immediately screamed say no, right,
like everything in me screamed at me, say no. And
I'm sitting there thinking, if I say no, he's going
to cry. I don't know how to deal with it.
If he's going to cry, that's just oh yuck. Oh
(16:35):
I can't cope with that. And then I thought of
the eight hour drive home, and I thought that's going
to be so awkward. So all of this in a
split second, and then I'm like, well, how bad could
it be? Right? So I didn't listen to my instincts
and I said yes. And you know, another one of
(16:57):
the questions is about what are your three best memories?
And that one I use with my mediation clients, and
of course what often happens and they share them, is
often the best memories are from the life before children,
(17:22):
because after the children come, you just kind of start
You've got no energy for this spouse, right, sure, you remember,
It's like, now, all my attention was on the kids
in my career, and same for you know, my spouse,
my husband. And it's really interesting when you have a
(17:43):
discussion with that in mind. It's hard to blame the
other person, and it shifts the dynamic, right because when
all the good memories and then it's been like fifteen years,
there's been no all the good memories have involved entire family.
(18:04):
It helps people process, It helps that other person catch up,
and of course when you're not feeling humiliated and you're not,
it lessens the fear and makes it easier for people
to get to make better decisions.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
So I kind of want our viewers to know too,
because there's a couple of things that you said here
that that fit for my late husband. Not all people,
especially abused people are are women. Men get abused by
their spouse, their wives as well, if they're in a
(18:47):
marriage that it's a man and a woman, and if
they're both men, then obviously somebody can be abusive to
the other person. And so in my late husband's you
know life you were talking about, you knew, you knew
that you should shouldn't you didn't want to be in
the relationship when he proposed. That was exactly what happened
(19:09):
with my late husband. Is he he had started seeing
her and fell in love with her son, which he
later adopted, and during that timeframe she got pregnant with
his first son, and so he felt obligated. But he
said the wedding was disastrous, was horrible. He hated it,
(19:31):
and he wanted to jump off the ship for their honeymoon.
He says he could never do anything right. He never
could do anything right. From the moment he asked her
to get married. Everything went downhill from there. So men
can experience the same stuff as well.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Yeah, And why I phrase it, I totally agree. Why
I phrase it as how to tell my husband I
want a divorce is because most divorces, they're initiated by
the wife. They are the people doing the doom scrolling
at three am. So but it's I mean, every year
(20:15):
there's at least two men who I end up working with,
you know, as a mediator or as a divorced strategist,
that it's a really abusive relationship. Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
And the sad part. You know, some of the statistics
out there, they say that women are one in every
three that get abused, but for men it's one in
every four and less men report that. Now, we're not
necessarily talking about physical abuse, but in most cases when
(20:52):
they're reported, it is physical abuse. My my father never
reported his but he was shot at several times, and
then when I picked him up out of the hospital,
the last time she drove over him and my late husband,
his ex bit him so bad it made his shirt
(21:12):
extremely bloody. And so that's how he went in the
next day, is he went in to report that, and
then he started the process and got her out of
the home. But then he got afraid. And this is
kind of what I did, is I ended up afraid,
and I ended up back in the home, and that
(21:36):
specific day I attempted suicide. So those are kind of
things that happen. We get fearful of their attacks, verbal
attacks from a distance, even though there was a restraining
order in place, and we just feel like, oh my gosh,
if I don't bring them back in, they're going to
(21:57):
be horrible when this is all over. And the reality
is is if you drop those charges, that abuse is
going to be worse on the other end of drop
charges than it will be on the other end of
dealing with the divorce with the restraining order in place.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
No, I believe it. It's like there's a whole I mean,
of course, the most dangerous relationships are where there's what's
called coercive control is present, and those are you know
(22:38):
that they started out this was real Prince Charming or
just the woman of your dreams, completely lovely, like completely lovely,
just so giving and so wonderful enough, just understands me completely,
and things move in the relationship very very quickly. They
(23:03):
also the abuser undermines your relationships with your support network,
right and it's very very subtle. I mean it can
be very overt too in terms of the control, Like
you're five minutes late and you're accused of having an affair,
(23:28):
or you go and buy groceries and your spouse, you know,
reimburses you, and your spouse yells at you because you
bought chips and refuses to reimburse you for those, and
it's it's so you're alone, so you completely doubt yourself.
(23:49):
Now what's interesting is, well, what really makes me sad
is I talk to a lot of people who are
working with a therapist and they have no idea that
in an abusive relationship.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I was one of those, right.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Like, because like I'll spot it talking to somebody. I
was chatting with a fellow this morning and he kept apologizing.
Even for a Canadian, it was excessive, right, And he
(24:27):
said a few other things, and I'm like, okay, m
h m hm. So it's you really really doubt yourself.
And I see a lot of not a lot, but
there's a towel with it. And you might have noticed
this in mediation too. In coercive control, you'll have one
(24:51):
partner who's really articulate and charming and they make so
much sense, right, and they're just reasonable, they're just great
to talk to. And then you have the other spouse
who can come across as whiny and indecisive and they
might have been diagnosed recently with ADHD or depression, right,
(25:15):
and they're just you know, they're micromanagers to an extreme level.
And as a lawyer, when i'd have those clients, I
never knew, Oh, it's coercive control. But with mediation I
see it because the person who's the micromanager they know
the facts like that, you know, and the other person
(25:37):
who's so charming, they're just skimming the surface. They don't
have the details. And so I talk with people like
that and I'm just okay, this is abusive.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
It's very noticeable when you start talking with people like
you said, apologize several times that's like key number one,
and I get my clients to stop saying I'm sorry.
They can apologize, and they shouldn't apologize for their actions,
but apologize for how their actions made you feel, so
(26:19):
that they are not taking responsibility for that person's actions.
But you're right, that's one of the very first things
that we see in people that are dealing with coheresive
control is is they apologize a lot.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
And and I say, I, now, oh yeah, depression. Oh
I was just diagnosed with ADHD okay, m h yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
So you and I have a very similar way of mediating.
Even though you weren't trained in the restorative side, your
mediation aspects are very similar to the way I do things.
And then we talked earlier about how lawyers come in
and when they come into mediation, it's like, oh my gosh,
(27:09):
mediation slows down. It's like you hit this brick wall.
And so if if my clients decide they need to
have attorneys, I do a fish bowl effect. I don't
allow the attorneys to talk during the mediation process. I
tell them that if you need to talk with your client,
will take a recess then you can talk with them.
(27:32):
But there's going to be no no stalling or stopping
things unless I feel we need to bring the lawyers
in with ideas of how we can get over a hurdle.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Well, and you know mediation, you know, for so long
it's been oh, just just treat divorce and mediation like
it's a business transaction, you know. And that's the message
that lawyers give to their clients too. And of course,
if you don't deal with the emotions, you're not going
(28:10):
to be able to settle anything because if you don't
trust this person, and it's really giving them the opportunity,
as you say, even if attorneys are there, it's the
clients need to speak. It's not having your attorney be
your advocate. No, that's that's appropriate for the courtroom. That's
(28:35):
where an attorney does the best job. And I've always
remembered the first small claims we have. I don't know
if you have small claims court, yeah, right, so my
first trial, and of course going through law school in
the early nineteen nineties, I thought court was the absolute
best way to resolve any dispute. You know, you have, yeah,
(28:59):
you have somebody impartial, like it was just so beautiful
and none of those icky emotions getting in. So I
end up with this small claims trial and my client
it was all over. He'd built a fence around a
(29:22):
rented lot. His daughter and grandkids lived there. The landowner
had said beforehand they would pay for the fence. Landowner,
after the fence was built, refused to pay. So my
client takes them to court, and our first meeting he
mentions his daughter and grandkids and it's a busy street.
(29:42):
So we are successful in court, other than the fact
that the court did not order him taxes that he'd
paid on the materials. And I am so excited. Look
at this. I'm a good advocate. We won, justice has
prevailed all of it, and I phoned him to discuss
(30:07):
our success. He's furious the judge didn't listen to me.
I cannot believe this. This is a travesty. You know,
if he'd listened to me, he would have given me
back to the taxes on this. It was less than
one hundred dollars. And he's wanting to appeal, and I'm like,
(30:28):
what is going on here? This is this? This is
not like you should be happy. I'm just thinking, right,
and so I put I thought about this for a
lot a lot, a lot, and one day when I
was out walking, it came to me. Oh and so
the next time I spoke with him, I asked him,
(30:51):
I said, why did you build a fence? Right, I
thought back to our first conversation, and I said, wasn't
it to keep your grandkids safe? He relaxed them, and
(31:11):
he was happy with the decision. And of course what
had happened was with the legal process, what was most
important to him was completely ignored. It was not part
of the language, it didn't fit within the legal issues,
so it was dropped. So the issue that was most
(31:32):
important to him, that's not what the court decided. So
of course he was angry, but once he remembered, oh, yeah,
I built it to keep the grandkids safe, and they're
giving me back most of my money and all as well.
So that experience really shifted things for me in terms
(31:56):
of decision making. But you know, I'm kind of a
slow learner. So after we separated, I went back to
law school to get my master's because it was something
I'd always wanted to do, and I had a job researching.
I got a job for a couple of props on
(32:20):
you know, settlement and business and commercial disputes alternative dispute resolution,
and I came across the statistic that said ninety percent
of business and commercial disputes are settled without any involvement
from lawyers, and I remember thinking, don't they like us? Defy,
(32:48):
that's a lawyer. Don't they like us? Oh?
Speaker 2 (32:54):
How could this be?
Speaker 3 (32:55):
I get it now? And what was interesting though, is
in that with that job, I learned that when people
negotiate and come to a resolution, even if it is
not strictly speaking, legally binding, they are much more likely
(33:19):
to do it because they put the effort into negotiating it,
and they have agreed to it, and it is their
integrity on the line. And I also like, like, I think,
so if ninety percent of business and commercial disputes can
settle without lawyers, there's a lot more family law disputes,
(33:40):
divorce cases that can settle out lawyers.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
That would be wonderful if they could. You know, like
I had said before, I wait, we wait to bring
on the attorney until after everything's all organized. We don't
have to pay the attorney to do that. But in
the case with my clients there two b X is
not turning in their financials they are not doing anything
(34:11):
their court ordered to do, and so we have to
have somebody that is able to push and get things done.
We just need to. Like I said, I work with
this wonderful lawyer in Colorado that he doesn't think about
how much it's costing the client. He just does a
hell of a job at taking care of his client.
(34:31):
He just does it and it can be quite the
cost to the client. So we have to we have
to pull the reins back on him because he loves
his work so much. And it would be it would
be a plus to have somebody like that if you
needed them well.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
And so there's there's a couple of different ways to
bring something to a conclusion when you have somebody who's
really controlling. And the first way is before lawyers, you
go to a mediator like you or like me, because
what happens. They want to be liked, They want to
(35:13):
be a good guy or this woman who's just a
great human being. And so if you get them soon enough,
they're going to be more interested. You know, there's fewer
outside influences. I know one couple I worked with, it
was actually quite lovely that he had a coworker who
was spending. I think who had spent one hundred thousand
(35:36):
dollars on a divorce and it wasn't yet settled. So
my client was like, look at me, I'm going to win.
I can you know? He didn't say that, No, that
was part of his rationale for settlement. And he actually
agreed to pay more spousal support and for a longer
time than when he originally talked to me. Okay, and
(36:01):
we focused, you know, on life for the kids, and
the kids were adults, and it was just it was
a beautiful thing. The other way to bring it to
a close is with an attorney like you mentioned, because
as soon as the controller feels a little bit humiliated,
(36:22):
they dig in and they will use the court process
to perpetuate the abuse. So you really really need somebody strong,
and I'm thinking we represent. Like a few years ago,
(36:45):
I got a message on Facebook, Hey Kim, do you
remember me? And it's this former client when I was
a junior on her file with a husband who was
not paying child support, was not paying spellal support owed
in hundreds of thousands of dollars and we brought an
application for contempt. So contempt is if you do not
(37:07):
follow a court order. If you're found in contempt, you
can go to jail. So it's a two day hearing
and the second day, after lunch, there's an RCMP officer
in the back of the courtroom and the judge called
a recess and the RCMP officer police officer goes up
to this gentleman and says, I want your shoelaces, your wallet,
(37:29):
and your belt. And so this woman when she said
do you remember me, Kim, I'm like, well, I only
ever had one RCMP officer in the back of the
courtroom asking a fellow for his belt, right, So yes,
I remember you. And she thanked me because that was
(37:52):
the moment when her ex decided I better start paying her.
I'm going to jail right right and then. And but
the other thing is if you don't have millions of
dollars to fight, it's really about like one thing I
help my clients with My background is judo, right, which
(38:15):
is maximum efficiency with minimum effort. So I'm coaching somebody
it's all about what do you really need? Like, what
do you want? What does winning look like for you?
And it doesn't have to match the what the lawyers
tell you is for you won and what does it
(38:36):
look like for him? So negotiation is very very different
because we're playing on what he wants so that he
doesn't know that you know. So it's always right, like
you never stop. You never start negotiation with your bottom
(38:58):
line because they're going to push you down more. And
it's is there and there might be something of his
or hers that they really really love and want to
keep and that you don't care about. But can you
make an argument why you want it? Right? So you
(39:19):
can give up something and you're much more likely to
get something that's important to you.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Give and tank, give and tank.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Right, Because in that abusive situation, you're thinking, if I
just I'll just go along with this and it'll all
be good. I'll just be reasonable. And there's some attorneys
who go, okay, let's start with reasonable. Doesn't work. But
people also have to know how much they're willing to
(39:51):
spend on the attorney and when to quit right.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Sometimes because of that out.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Right, because of sunk costs bias, they're going to keep
spending and they might spend more than they're going to
get in property, and that doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
True true, So we're already coming to a close already
and you and I could probably go on for another
hour at least. So all of your contact information will
be at the bottom of the show. But can you
tell people how to find you and how to find
your course.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
So my website is Kimcorvin dot com and the course
is there, and the course takes you through like how
to get on the same page so that you can
actually communicate more effectively. It has a module like, here's
all the information you need to gather. Here's translating the
legal terms into Plane English, so you can actually have
(40:51):
a conversation where the language doesn't have you hyperventilating, so
you can make good decisions. There's a module on separation
agreement with some templates. There's a module on filling in
court forms. And so you don't live where I live, well,
that's okay. Here's how you find the court forms where
you live to apply for divorce preferably together. That's the
(41:16):
simplest with the separation agreement attached. And then some more resources,
you know, like all the different types of professionals you
could work with. Here's what you could expect to spend
if you work with lawyers. Because even if like you
do the course and it helps put you in a
(41:36):
better place. So you can work with a divorce coach
and you understand the concepts, you resolve three of the
six issues, you've saved a lot of money, and so
the course is there. And there's also on my website
a ritual for divorce which helps people actually move through that.
(41:59):
What are our best memories and so they can make
better decisions. But yes, that is best place, best place
to find me.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Okay, awesome. So for our viewers, I'm a certified divorce coach,
meaning that I'm training the complexities of divorce. I've also
experienced abuse. I watched my father go through abuse. I
witnessed my late husband go through abuse. So not only
do I know it textbookly, I also know it physically.
(42:31):
So you can find me or contact me through my
email at Coach Tina Lynn at gmail. That's co O
a c h t I n A l y n
N at gmail dot com. My website is Divorcecoachspecialist dot com.
You can also find me on social media Facebook under
Tina Lynn Huggins that's h U G G I n S.
(42:54):
LinkedIn under Tina Huggins Instagram under divorce Coach Tina Lynn
on TikTok under divorce Tina. So one of the things
I like here at the end, Kim, is to ask
for you to give our viewers your last bit of advice.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
The one thing that could save you so much money
and stress and keep you safe is if you can
be curious not furious. Love that. So instead of going no,
I don't believe you, or that's wrong, say oh I
haven't thought of it that way before. Tell me more.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
I like that. Curious not furious.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Be curious, not curious.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
So in my advice here is that Kim is one
of two retired lawyers that are in my back pocket.
And I haven't known Kim long enough enough to be
able to actually get to work with her yet, but
the other retired attorney I work with her quite frequently
with my clients. I think having Kim as somebody that
(44:12):
you can go to and ask questions, pay for her
time and ask questions and get yourself clear about where
you're headed, especially if you're doing this pro sae, which
is kind of what Kim is suggesting here. Having Kim
in your back pocket being able to ask questions is huge.
(44:32):
So I want you to remember Kim's name and go
to her website and find that information out, because being
able to ask her and pay for time saves you money,
is opposed to just going to your lawyer and handing
off the divorce to the lawyer. So one of the
(44:53):
things that I like to cover here is that as
we go, and you heard me talk earlier about my
at time to suicide. Suicide is something that some of
us get to, that suicidal ideation, and so if you
are contemplating or feeling like you're in that place right now,
please call the National Suicide Prevention Hotline. This is here
(45:13):
in the US at nine eight eight. The Netherlands offers
the same help at one one three. And Kim, do
you guys have a National Suicide Prevention hotline there in Canada?
I don't even know, Okay, So that's something we'll have
to look up. I'm going to if if you are
(45:35):
in a situation that you need the police there now
here in the States, please call nine one one, and
it's nine nine nine in Europe, in the UK and
in the Netherlands it's one one two. So you want
to get the police there, you want to press charges,
do not remove those charges. Those charges are your key
out of the abuse. Oftentimes when you drop those charges,
(45:58):
the abuse that came before the charges were placed is
much worse after the charges are dropped. This is your
key out. It's a safe time. The domestic violence hotline
is eight hundred seven nine nine seven two three three.
That number again is eight hundred seventy seven ninety nine
seventy two thirty three. And I ask that you please
(46:21):
like this, comment on it and share so that this
can help others. So I really want to thank you
for being here and talking with me today, Kim. This
has been an awesome conversation.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
Thank you. And I just looked up the suicide crisis
line in Canada is nine to eighty eight, so.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Nine eight eight mm hm. I need to make sure
that I remember that so I can put it down
in my notes. So and Ashley, it's the same. Sorry,
as I look back over notes, it's the same exact
one that we've got, so I'll make sure that I
list that as also Canada's number.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
It's really important one to have, So thanks, thank you
for actually for bringing that to my attention.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
So very good. I just think it's important that we
have those important numbers because in the middle of the
night when we're not in a good place. We need
to have somebody that we can talk to for that moment.
And thank you again, Kim, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
You're listening to WGSNDB going Solo Network Singles Talk Radio Channel,
where we take a lighthearted and candidate approach to discussions
on the journey of relationship, laws, divorce, parenting, being single, relationships, building, dating,
and yes sex. Join our listeners and begin living your
best life.
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