Project Artichoke Part I: Telepathy, Parapsychology, and Sometimes Horus

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to Bad Press, Come along, David and Travis Softy,
you know science and history. Light's the way you know?
Gay keeping here?

Speaker 2 (00:19):
What we say.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Seeking the truth is are car.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Questioning all?

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Watch the one welcome to I couldn't even get through
the whole song without laughing.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Oh my god, know what I expected?

Speaker 1 (00:38):
And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is the worst AI podcast
intro song you have ever heard. Listen. I had three
free credits on udio dot com. I gave it a shot.
What do you think, David, welcome too bad? It's pretty good.
It's not bad.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
I mean, I'm really that was I didn't know. I
didn't know that that was the vibe that you were
going to be trying to.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Well, no, no, there's no there's no trying to you
just say you right. Bad Press is the name of
the show. Podcast interest song enter and I got a
country song and I got this. Those are my two options.
There was no vibe selection on my part.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Okay, well do you need.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
To redo this intro? Do we need to redo this intro?
Or is this acceptable?

Speaker 2 (01:29):
I think this is acceptable as long as everybody can
hear us and whatnot.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Well, now let's different real welcome to Bad Press, the
show where David does deep dive, so we don't have
to what would you what would you say? I was
trying to think because I was coming up with like
the prompt for this song, and I was like, what
is bad Press about? I think, yes, history, science, there's

(01:55):
like an element of investigative journalism. But if you had
to boil it down to one word, I would say,
and this is a hyphenated word, but I still think
it counts truth seeking, right, but not in like a
new age way, like we just actually want to know
how stuff works, right.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, I think the truth seeking is definitely definitely an
element of it. I think it's just like a fascination
and an obsession with the weird and the kind of yeah, digging,
you know, is just like looking beneath the surface of

(02:33):
kind of what we were talking about with This isn't
one word, so I don't know how to distill it,
but you know, just getting into you know, looking into
some of these histories that have kind of the surface
explanation and then when you look a little more into it, it
just unravels into this.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yeah yeah, yeah, but that I mean, that is that's
truth seeking because we've been given We've been given a lie,
and we want to know the truth. The lie is
like well polished, well known, widespread. The truth is obscure, hidden,
So yeah, I mean true. I think truth seeking kind
of evokes like, I know, like forbidden knowledge kind of stuff.

(03:14):
But in a sense, I mean that's sort of what
this is. It does seem like the true, you know,
the true history of humanity is sort of like forbidden knowledge,
you know, because everything's so obscure. Anyway, what are we
talking about today? Speaking of weird stuff?

Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, it's like but just on that point, it's like
truth seeking while also realizing that we have no idea
what the hell's actually going on.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I gotta you gotta acknowledge that it
might be an impossible tech. There's an absurdity to our
desire to know the truth that's worth the pursuit.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
But today talking about on Treha Pouharich, I believe that's
how you pronounce his name A N D R I
J A and then pooh, I'm not gonna spell.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
But I mean he he sounds good to me. I
feel like I've heard Poharric and Paharich. So yeah, I'm
with you. Why do we care about this guy? What's
his story?

Speaker 2 (04:12):
Well, so some have described him as kind of the
father of the American New Age movement, which might be
kind of a an oversized title for a pooharic, but
one that is at least kind of in the ballpark.
It's kind of close. And so he's one of these

(04:33):
historical figures that not a lot of people have. Really
people have started to pay attention to him more recently
and he started to kind of feature in more of
these kinds of podcast series or whatever.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
But he's not like some obscure like quasi Buddhist New
Age thinker. He was like a government guy, right, like
he was working with what intelligence or what.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
Well, so he worked as at Edgewood Arsenal at Camp Dietrich,
which is in Maryland, which is like the center for
especially after World War Two, like the Center for Biological Weapons.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Research allegedly where this This is going to be in
our Conspiracy ABC coloring book for sure, because allegedly that's
where lyme disease came from.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
I don't know, I don't have any doubt about that.
A lot of crazy things came out of Fort Ditrick.
One of the famous things that happened out of fort
die Trick that poohich is around is I mean, I'm
not he wasn't like directly involved, but like you know,
he was in the same circle as have you ever
heard of the murder of or the alleged murder of

(05:44):
Frank Olsen. No, so we'll get we'll get into some
of that later because he has kind of these two tracks,
So he, like Pooharach, has this kind of civilian track
that may also be like tied up intelligence, but then
he has his also kind of his formal military track,

(06:05):
and that stuff is caught up with. He was big
into like researching how drugs affect consciousness, so I think
kind of like mk Ultra I mentioned that Project Artichoke
was another one, but that was like one of the
big things, and why he was at forty Trick was
really to study, you know, to study like the influence

(06:27):
of drugs on you know, consciousness for you know, psychological
warfare operations.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
Project Artichoke. Okay, all right, well, I know because you've
told me that you have like ten thousand words of
notes prepared on this topic. So we will dive in
first to let me do a little housekeeping. Yes, I
want to I want to give a big but that
that was like the teas So we've hooked everybody. You're
I want to know what is Project Artichoke? What is this?

(06:55):
Mk ultra cousin. But first, our friend Peter, who were
writing a book with just went on the Brothers of
the Serpent podcast. So check him out on YouTube. Yeah,
aka Cheese. If you are in the Snake Bros. Discord server,
you would recognize Cheese. He had a cool talk about
King Arthur, the historicity of King Arthur. Maybe King Arthur

(07:16):
is a real guy, some aspects of his story that
I think he's going to get into next time, which
I think are fascinating, or that maybe, you know, maybe
Christianity came to England first. You know, there's a English
people at least seem to believe that a lot of them,
a subset of them, that Joseph of Arimathea went to

(07:37):
Britain after the death of Jesus, which is like not
a well known thing. And I love conspiracies like that
because it could be true. I love conspiracies that could
be true. Otherwise what's the point and learning about conspiracy?
So anyway, check that out. Hopefully we'll have his book
ready soon. I won't even guess yet because it's early stages,

(07:59):
but it reminds me if you want to write a book.
Bad Press is the official podcast of Hemispheric Press, a
boutique publisher. David is the editor. He helps me publish
my book, God's Eye View, and we would like to
see some sample chapters from you all. You can kind
of start to get a sense of what we're into

(08:21):
by listening to the show, looking at my book, listening
to Peter. We're into lots of different stuff. We're into
the truth, whatever that elusive thing is. So go ahead
an email editor at hemispheric press dot com if you're
interested in publishing a book. Okay, project art a joke,
let's do it.

Speaker 2 (08:41):
Well, so we'll get to project art a joke. It's
actually going to come a little bit later. But the
thing that we're going to kind of start with is
the lead up to what is called The Nine and
I guess the longer title is the Nine Principles and
Forces and this, and just to give a little bit

(09:01):
of a preview, is gonna be kind of like an
episode where Pooharic and people a part of what's called
the Roundtable Foundation believe that they are channeling the Niad
or the nine Principal Forces of Egypt.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
Wow, this started off in dramatic fashion. Okay, got it, definitely.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
So this is kind of separate. So, like I said,
he kind of has this civilian track that may be
tied up an intelligence and he has this military track,
which is Project artist trick. So we're gonna start with
kind of the civilian track because that's kind of what
happens a little bit first, Okay, So yeah, we're just
gonna start by giving a little bit of backstory. He
was born in nineteen eighteen in Chicago to a poor

(09:48):
immigrant family, had a violent father. He's the only son
with six sisters. And Porich was interested early on in
his life in ESP extrasensory perception because of an attack
that we had with a dog as a milk delivery.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
Can you elaborate what was his encounter with the dog?
They made him interested in ESP. Sometimes I have looked
at my dog and been like ef, yeah, because.

Speaker 2 (10:17):
Look there he goes, and he's a milk delivery boy,
and this terrifying dog in Chicago. You know, in the
nineteen twenties, presumably looks like it's about to attack him,
and he sends out like vibes of calm, like chill out,
don't attack me, and the dog sits down and like

(10:41):
doesn't continue growling and like kind of charging. And so
from a very early age, she's like, there's this energy,
this kind of sixth sense that exists, and it's kind
of like my lifelong goal to figure out what this
kind of energy is, what this kind of okay lepathy is,

(11:04):
you know whatever. There's a bunch of different words you
can kind of use for it.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
But yeah, that's cool. I mean I kind of think
of the SI stuff and telepathy and all that as
being like a somewhat new obsession. But it's always so
cool to see that as like, no, but this is
stuff we've been interested in forever, so even one hundred
years ago, probably a thousand years ago, probably ten thousand
years ago.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, and that's what you get. And then you also see,
like as we'll see kind of later in the story,
like very rich and powerful people are interested in it.
It's not just like these like hippies and northern California
living on a commune. You know, it's some of like
the blue bloods in American history, you know, get interested
in this kind of stuff. So yeah, he has that experience.

(11:46):
He goes to Northwestern just in Chicago, and he studied
pre med and philosophy, and then he eventually earned his
MD while he was there, and he started to go
work in Oakland for his residency, like the Permanente Institute

(12:07):
I think it was called, hmm, but there he was
working on the effect of drugs.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
Is that is that where the permanent Permanente permanente in
Kaiser Permanente comes from. Do you know? Because I know
it's Kaiser Steel, I have not to put you on
the spot. I'm going to google that. Sorry, you keep talking.
I'm just curious.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
No, that's a that's a really interesting question. I would
be very interested.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
It's called the Permanente Permanente Foundation.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah, Permanente Institution or Permanente Foundation, some sort of like
medical research facility.

Speaker 1 (12:43):
Yeah, it's kai Kaiser, Kaiser Steel and the Permanimente Foundation
formed Kaiser Permanent Permanente.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
So that makes sense. Okay, sorry, oh no, you're good.
So yeah, he finishes his metadical degree and then kind
of like immediately after finishing his medical degree, he was
working with like really famous physicians. So he's working with
his mentor. His name is John c Ivy, and John

(13:13):
c Ivy was one of the doctors who testified against
the defendants of the Nuremberg trials, and so these were
you know, kind of early on in his life he was,
you know, being kind of surrounded by influential, important people.
So he while he like is finishing his residency or

(13:37):
just after he finishes his residency, he developed something called
the Puharich theory, and the poor Arch theory is basically this.
It's the brain and the nervous system are linked to
cells and instructions in the form of energy flows between them.
The point that I am trying to establish is that
the brain is an area wherein is localized the cell

(13:59):
energy of the body. I shall label this cell energy dynamics,
so you know more about the brain. So does that
make any sense to you?

Speaker 1 (14:11):
I mean, in some ways, it's like it's like stating
the obvious, Like if you read the first part again
that the brain and neurons. Read the first part again.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
The first part is the brain and the nervous system
are linked to cells and instructions and the form of
energy flows between them.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yeah, I mean because in a way this is just
obviously true and would have been known to be true
at the time. I would assume is that the brain
is linked to cells via signals. I mean energy, What
does energy? Energy is the most meaningless word really there is,
unless you're talking about it in a physics perspective. I mean,
the brain sends signals to cells, you know, so it's energy.

(14:55):
But I have a feeling that's probably not what he meant.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Well, so I've got a few more or I've got
a little bit more elaboration on kind of the heart
the theory, and just so I'm clear right now, I'm
kind of taking quotes from Annie Jacobsson's book Phenomenon, And yeah,
we'll get into some other sources, but this just has
like a really good biography of Park's early life. So

(15:21):
lots like Jacobson.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
But why not I don't know. I don't know that she's.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
Wrote a book on like Area fifty one, a book
on Operation paper Clips, she wrote a book on Phenomenon,
she's written a book on Dart, but like she's one
of these intelligence community investigative journalists. But a lot to
think that she is on the payroll of the intelligence. Yeah,

(15:47):
like weaving real information in with disinformation. But so she
has let me quit this app quits making noise a
disinformation agent. Yes, but that's what so she says. Pouhark
believed this energy force present in all animals and insects

(16:09):
radiated somewhere on the electromagnetic spectrum, but that man had
not yet invented technology to measure or record it. When
a few months later, two Yale University scientists Lloyd H.
Beck and Walter S. Miles first reported that the old
factory nerve of the b radiated energy in the infrared spectrum,

(16:30):
one of Buharik's theories was proved. Right, So, yeah, saying
that the energy force radiates somewhere on the electromagnetic spectrum.
And then you know, an element of this theory, I guess,
gets proven by Yale scientists.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
Okay, yeah, I mean I'm not impressed.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
This is just like I said, this is early.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
This is how he's getting started. That makes sense.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah, Like I said, he come up with a theory
and then it seems like a lot of actually like
interest around it gets generated that he doesn't like prove
anything that he has kind of like this, you know, idea,
and then people get interested in it. But like, I
don't know if it really goes a ton of places.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
But I kind of I think I kind of understand
the distinction now because you know, even I think, like
back in eighteen fifty, the action potential was discovered, so
you know, we already knew that the brain communicated with
the body via electrical really electrochemical signals. But he's saying, no,
it's an electromagnetic There's some there's some electromagnetic component to

(17:41):
this on the on the electromagnetic spectrum in this maybe infrared,
maybe visible light. This is still stuff we study today.
I mean, we study biophotons and there's yeah, so this
it is interesting, so maybe maybe there is something to it.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Well, that's right, and like he will begin kind of
investigating this and kind of full force, so we'll see
a few more of his ideas and see, you know,
kind of which of them hold up and which suck.
But yeah, in nineteen forty seven, he meets a very
famous microbiologist, author of a book called Microbe Hunters, and

(18:18):
this man is named doctor Paul de Croif. De Croif
expresses sincere interest in Pohart theory and encourages him to
give seminars back on the East Coast. So, yeah, he
was in California. De Croif says, come out to the
East Coast and give presentations at Harvard and Yale. So
he does that, and kind of the theme of those

(18:42):
presentations he gives at Harvard and Yale, he's trying to
kind of merge mysticism science philosophy, and he's asking whether
inspiration was derived internally or externally. So he's wondering if, like,
you know, kind of this. I know you've had a
lot of these conversations, you know, dealing with your book,

(19:02):
but you know, are we generating Yeah, are we generating
consciousness or his consciousness this external force that we are
kind of an antenna for. So he's asking this back
in like nineteen nineteen forty seven.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yeah, that's pretty cool. I'll need I'm trying to remember
when transmission theory was in its heyday. It might have
been around then or a little bit before them, but
I mean there was a time and that was actually
kind of like the accepted wisdom, you know, because you
have transmission versus production theory. So production theory is your
brain makes consciousness transmission was that it receives it, and

(19:37):
I think it was. It was definitely Tesla era, you know,
so it would have been. So he was probably in
a pretty good company. And that MicroB Hunter's book that's
pretty I mean it's a pretty I wouldn't say well known,
but it's a pretty it's a certainly legitimate book and
like exploration of the first guys like Louis Pastor and

(19:58):
stuff who were discovering the microscopic world. So it's pretty cool.
It sounds like he was taken fairly seriously at the time.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, and that's what I mean. He was you know,
Northwestern good School, uh, you know, medical school at Northwestern
Permanenta Institute. Like you know, so it's like he's in
this is the era when he is surrounded by respectable
people and mainstream kind of scientists. Later in his life

(20:25):
we will see him surrounded by a little bit kind
of more curious characters. But so he gives these lectures
and like this is yeah, like I think he's in
that kind of vein of transmission theory, but he's really
looking at like okay, maybe we don't have like like
how is the nervous system operating within this transmission theory.

(20:48):
So it's like not like originally coming up with the idea,
but saying, like, you know, we need to start looking,
you know more, he's proposing new methods to look into
you know, I guess this kind of the idea of
the nervous system as a receiver or you know, a
transmitter of this electromagneated netic radiation. So at those lectures, yeah,

(21:12):
he the quote from one of those is he, I
have wondered at the clairvoyance of the mind that can
break loose from the shackles of conformity and facts and
can give us the philosophy of Plato, the universe of Newton,
the spirit of Christ, and the psychological insight of Henry Throw,
Walt Whitman, William James, and Kleil Jebroun. The deep study
of this is my life's problem. So this is, you know,

(21:33):
just a kind of this metaphysical blend of you know,
science and mysticism.

Speaker 1 (21:40):
And I wish, I wish scientists still like that. It
would be so much more fun.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
So at these one of these at one of these semars,
were a pair as a brother and a sister, and
they were known as the Balokovics, butchering that name. It's
a Yugoslavian name. But they were very intrigued by these
conferences and they proposed a project with pooharak and so

(22:08):
he said, yep, I'm interested and went to visit them
in Maine. And so he was in Camden, Maine, in
just this beautiful, gorgeous coastal environment, kind of like a
haven for the elites of the time. And here I
think it was the sister's name was Joyce. Convinced him

(22:30):
to set up a research lab nearby and that they
would help to fund him initially and help to get
him kind of other benefactors so that he could begin
to study the Pooharic theory and like this electromagnetic transmission
of energy, you know, whatever you want to call it.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
Man, when am I going to meet a reach a
rich benefactor. If you're a rich benefactor listening to the podcast,
please shoot us an email. Okay, we need a rich benefactor. Okay.
So he's got money. Now he's funded. Awesome.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
And so one of the people that they introduced him
to is another wealthy benefactor, Alice Astor Bowery or Booverret
The Astors. Yeah, so you will notice that name kind
of stuck there in the middle. And she was the daughter,
only daughter of John Jacob Astor the fourth. He died

(23:25):
in the Titanic when Alice was only ten. She inherited,
you know, a massive fortune and used it to sponsor,
you know, whatever she wanted to. So she just kind
of had the ability to like get interested in something
and then be like, hey, I think you have a
good idea. Here's one hundred thousand dollars. And so, yeah,
that's what she does. And she so, like Joyce in

(23:51):
the Berlokovics or whatever their names are, she was interested
in ESP. And she had actually inherited this interest in
ESP from her father. So John Jacob four had written
sci fi novels about extrasensory perception all the way back
in nine sorry, eighteen eighty four, and it was a
book called A Journey in Other Worlds, a romance of

(24:11):
the future. It's where space traveling protagonists communicate with each
other through telepathy. That's kind of cool, like, you know,
you have this you know, this blue blood family who
has this long standing interest in ESP.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
I wonder how they I'd love to go back and
read that book. Like, I wonder how they conceived of
space travel, you know, because they didn't have the rocket metaphor,
you know, or like the spaceship metaphor yet, you know,
yeah maybe like planes. No, but plane planes weren't around
yet really, not.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
In eighteen eighty four. I mean they had balloons really,
so I think they conceived it kind of as like a.

Speaker 1 (24:50):
Ship a blimp.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
Yeah, I don't know, I don't know that was cool.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
So yeah, anyway, sorry to derail you, but okay, interesting.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
So yeah, she cuts a check for one hundred thousand dollars,
which is worth, you know, over a million a day,
and are set up his research lab. So right now
he has two wealthy female patrons. Another one soon jumps
on board, and her name is Marcella Miller DuPont, also
interested in esp And so you have another man, huge

(25:26):
name DuPont, getting interested. And so the foundation, they set
up a foundation. They call it the Roundtable Foundation in
an homage to King Arthur. So what's up, cheese? Yeah,
And it was basically it's basically kind of like a
secret society. So Bouvert became the vice president, Joyce became treasurer,

(25:50):
and DuPont became the Mother of Magic for the foundation.
So whenever you are trying to set up a serious
scientist institute, it is always important to set up a
Mother of magic position.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
We have to you have you have like a an umbudsman,
you have a institutional reviewer of some kind, some interested
in scientific rigor, and then obviously a mother of magic
maybe maybe the most important.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
I mean that seems to be a critical you know,
critical component.

Speaker 1 (26:25):
That was like a really mystical time in American history,
though I think I don't I don't know the history
as well as i'd like to, but over the years
I've read things and I vaguely remembered these ideas that
like American mysticism was unmatched, you know, like we were
into this stuff.

Speaker 2 (26:45):
Yeah, like nineteen I think like nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties,
California was just an insane place to be. Oh I
bet yeah, But yeah, no, there's and like the same
thing over like across the pond in Great Britain, like
I've i've you know, seen their interest in kind of
like this new age kind of theosophy. Spiritualism was also
like super super prominent, and they have these like same

(27:09):
kind of thing, like they have these elite secret societies
that begin kind of like mixing these Anglo American secret societies,
and it's really interesting.

Speaker 1 (27:16):
It would be really interesting to dig into like the
first domino of that movement, like where where did this start?
Like what is the first reference to something related to
ESP I mean, I'm not asking you to tell me
off the top of your head. I'm just that would
be an interesting deep dive because I think the question is, like,

(27:36):
is that a cultural manipulation? I mean, cultures manipulated today?
Obviously was culture being manipulated back then? It must have been, right,
It's not that long ago, And I would just be
curious to see if that's like a legitimate, organic, grassroots
thing that captures the imagination of the world's powerful or

(27:56):
or does somebody like nudge us in that direction anyway.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, it's super I mean I think that And this
is kind of like I think maybe like a mainstream interpretation,
but it's like this theosophy, which it's repackaging old ideas.
You know, like if you read Theosophy, you know it's
not that she's necessary. It's trying to like bring old

(28:23):
wisdom into like the new like the Industrial Revolution and
stuff like that, and so I think it's just like
you can look at it as an evolution of this
kind of thing and like there are kind of unique
elements to it, but it's also like it has this lineage.
I mean, I think you could like look into kind
of the Resecrutions. You could look into like the Templars
and the Freemasons and see, you know, what are some

(28:45):
of those people in history interested in, Like can you
find you know, some of those threads. But yeah, it
happens really like in earnest, like late nineteenth century and
then evolves into like what we know is the New
Age movement.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
Yeah, yes, because the whole theosophy like what I have
for your first name. But yeah, yeah, that all started
like I think around nineteen hundred, right, eighteen eighty something
like that. So yeah, okay, so it caught on quick.

Speaker 2 (29:15):
Yeah, it's people were super interested in it. And there
was also like, yeah, this guy from like my mom's hometown,
like my mom's hometown, and my my grandfather was like
a judge there. It was like this you know, kind
of smaller town in Ohio, but it was you know,
my grandfather was a Freemason. I had like uncles and

(29:38):
cousins who were Freemasons, and there's that whole community. This
guy was born there and he became interested in like
seances and he was practicing like automatic writing, and I
think he had moved out of Springfield. He was just
from there, but he like went to New York. And
this was like I want to say, like eighteen fifties,

(29:59):
eighteen sixties. So you had this kind of like in
the Freemason circles where this kind of thing was like
you know, kind of maybe like channeling, you know, and
they were doing like seances at the Masonic lodge and
stuff like that. So I think that was kind of
like the breeding ground for a lot of this type
of thing. And then.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, man, that's that's fascinating, especially given like my conception
of America just being fundamental, fundamentalist in their religiosity and
Christianity back then. You know, but even back then, all
the powerful folks were into this you know, secret society,
Masonic what I guess we would say now, I kind

(30:40):
of you might say demonic, but who knows, even way
back then, you know, fascinating, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
And there's the there's types of stuff so we won't
go too much further down that, but it is very
relevant for like when you hear like John Jacob Asker
the fourth was interested in esp in eighteen eighty four,
it's not yeah, he wasn't just like making this stuff
up on his own. It was like there was a
whole community around him that was kind of you know.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
Yeah, his buddy Bob down at the hardware store and say, hey,
have you ever looked into theosophy? No, this is this
is like a deep seated cultural thread that seemed to
run through the society for a long time.

Speaker 2 (31:21):
Yes. So yeah, So it was DuPont who started alerting
high ranking government officials to the Roundtable foundations activities. So
among these officials with someone named Admiral John E. Gingrich,
Director of Security and Intelligence for the Atomic Energy Commission.

Speaker 1 (31:38):
He's not related to new though, Right, that's too much
to ask.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
For it, Right, I'm gonna do some investigation. Okay, now
you have I just I hope that's true.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
Because that would be too much. But okay, all right,
but yeah, I'll love me. You talk. What was his
first name? Say his first same.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
Again, Admiral John E. Gingrich. Okay, and the Energy Commission
as a whole other rabbit hole. That thing is insane.
But he was also he would also later hold high
positions in the Navy. And there's another Navy man called
Rexford Daniels, and he was responsible for advising military officials

(32:15):
on radio frequency and microwave technology. He was friendly with
the Roundtable organization, like he would go and have tea
or lemonade on the porch whatever they were drinking back
in the day. But he was intrigued by the potential
of ESP as a means to communicate across vast distances
in submarines. So it's like here you kind of start

(32:37):
to see the government become interested in ESP. You have,
you know, the Navy, the Atomic Energy Commission. You'll start
to see the CIA pop up. You know, you'll start
to see the Pentagon psych warfare. So like you begin
to see kind of these sharks, you know, circling circling

(32:59):
the wall. And then there's also like Jacobson doesn't say
it in her book, but there's also a lot of
like speculation that I think is probably correct that Paris
was already working for the intelligence community before, you know,
while the Round Table Foundation was being set up. So Okay,

(33:21):
the benefactors keep coming. So another one was this is
a long quote, but Ruth Forbes Young from the Forbes
family of bankers, and her husband Arthur Mattison or Arthur
Middleton Young, the Princeton University mathematician, philosopher, cosmologist, an astrologer

(33:42):
who famously designed Bell Corporation's first helicopter, the Model thirty,
were among them. So Ruth Forbes Young and Arthur Young
are among the benefactors. I think they get on like
the board of the Round Table Foundation. Congresswoman France's Paine Bolton.
She was a granddaughter of an oil man named Henry B. Payne.

(34:05):
She was the first woman elected to Congress from Ohio.
She was a supporter and patron Henry Belk of the
Belk Department store. Fortune came on board.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
Every name you say, I want to be like, is
that related to so and so? Because he said Bolton
John Bolton, Oh yeah, yeah, sorry, keep going going. I
can't find anything about Ingridge.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
What it is when you start to like if you
pick a name out of like the nineteen forties of
the nineteen fifties and then just be like, oh, I
wonder if that guy's related if it seems like more
often than not they are. Yeah. So Henry Cabot Paine
was a Boston Brahmin. I don't really know what that means,
but he became involved, and so did Jack Hayes Hammond Junior,

(34:45):
son of the diplomat and mining magnet John Hayes Hammond
Senior and Hammond Junior, who became involved with the Round
Table Foundation. He himself was the inventor of the Navy's
first torpedo, the Hammond Torpedo. So you have the inventor
of the first torpedo and the inventor of the first

(35:06):
helicopter both on the board of the Round Table Foundation.

Speaker 1 (35:11):
Dude, here's the trend again, man. People who like to
channel and people who like to create technology seems to
go hand in hand, man, Jack Parsons all the way
back to these guys, probably before them.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
And so we'll get yeah, we'll get it a little
bit into that because when you see kind of who
Hammond Junior had been working with before he got involved
in all this, it's fascinating. So also a note of
like early supporters was Henry Wallace. So he had served
under FDR as the vice president and also run for
president nineteen forty eight, and he was the famous Freemason

(35:46):
and he was responsible for putting the Great Seal with
the Masonic capstone on the back of the dollar bill.
So just an interesting So, yes, they have a bunch
of money, you know, all being privately funded, and so
Bharik goes about setting up the research lab and designing

(36:07):
experiments to test the five senses and searching for the
sixth sense. So he gets interested in audio waves and
human hearing because he would hear all these reports of
people who could hear outside the normal spectrum of human hearing,
twenty herds to twenty thousand herds. So he brings in
a prominent ear doctor to help with the experiments. They're
performing surgeries on ears, you know, doing different stuff. And

(36:31):
then later doctor Rosen is this guy's name. He kind
of leaves and he has his own theory on deafness,
and he's like, if I can basically change the way
that sound waves travel through the ear canal, I think
I can cure deafness. But he does it accidentally. So
he accidentally hits this one bone in the ear, and

(36:54):
he develops a procedure that has since cured tens of
millions of cases of deafness.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
Interesting.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
Yeah, and so it was like poll Harrik wasn't in
the room with him when he cured, you know, and
he didn't cure deafness totally, but you know, he did
have a major impact on it. It's called like the
rosen stapes procedure.

Speaker 1 (37:16):
But anyway, there's something interesting you can do with the
tuning fork. Sorry, this is a very obscure piece of information,
but you can like hit a tuning fork on a table,
you know, and you put it next to your ear
and you can hear it. In the instruction, instructions you
would give are to continue to listen to the tuning
fork until you can no longer hear it. And then
once you can no longer hear it, place the single

(37:38):
end of the tuning fork, not the vibrate, not the
resonating fork, but the handle against your mastoid process, which
is this bone right behind your ear that sort of
sticks out like a little knob, and you can hear
it again. And the point is you know that you
can that sound waves can be conducted into your cocola
through the bone versus through your tympanic memory. So just
to your point, that's pretty cool that they've discovered that

(38:01):
back then.

Speaker 2 (38:03):
Yeah, and that's what he so like Polark wasn't directly
involved with that discovery, but he's able to capitalize on it.
So he's able to know.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
He's trying to telepathically communicate with dogs, but they also
cured one form of deafness. I got it, I get it.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
And so he uses this to like get good press
about the Roundtable Foundation, and they start having money flowing
like coming from corporations now, and so they don't have
to be reliant on like the personal fortunes of all
these people. They now have like grants from places like
General Foods, you know, gets involved in some other pretty

(38:41):
big corporations. So pool Haark was super influenced by the
people around him, especially him and Junior, the guy who
made the torpedo, and so yeah, that's like torpedo was
radio controlled, and he had gotten the idea for the

(39:03):
radio controlled torpedo from his mentor Nikola Tesla, and other
influences in Hammond's education were Thomas Edison and Alexander Graham Bell.
So this guy, I was like, you know, his dad
was super super wealthy and able to you know afford
for these kind of people to be surrounding surrounding. Hammond Jr.

(39:26):
And Hammon Junior believed in esp as well as astrology
and the paranormal, which is just one of those examples.
Like we were talking about him, an extremely talented man
of science who had no issue with esoteric beliefs, and
kind of a quote about him is Jack Hammond, like
Nikola Tesla before him, believed scientific inspiration could come to
a man from an unknown energy force in the front

(39:48):
of a dreamsident for this idea, including personal accounts from
two Nobel laureates and a founding father of modern organic chemistry,
August kool A I, had a science symposium in Germany
in eighteen ninety. Kakoule, who discovered benzene, revealed that the
idea had come to him in a dream in which
he had imagined a snake eating its own tail, like

(40:10):
the ancient symbol of the oroboris. In nineteen twenty, Frederick D. Banting,
an unknown Canadian surgeon at the time, woke up from
a dream telling him to surgically liegate to tie up
the pancreas of a diabetic dog in order to stop
the flow of nourishment. He later said the discovery that
diabetes could be treated with insulin injections won him the

(40:32):
Nobel Prize of Medicine in nineteen twenty three. Otto Lowi,
the German pharmacologist who discovered a seedylcholine and a neurotransmitter
involved in dreaming, woke up in the middle of the dream,
jotted down a few notes on paper, and went back
to sleep. Lowe's dream led to the discovery that nerve
cell communication is chemical, not electrical. For this, he won

(40:53):
the Nobel Prize in Medicine in nineteen thirty six. So
all a dance scientists, you know, having these dreams, these
ideas come to them, And that.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
Was actually kind of nice to hear, because in my head,
I was I was getting ready to say, like, it
is weird how all these guys who you know are
channeling and they think there's inspiration coming to them and
their dreams or whatever. They seem to tend to always
make stuff that kills a lot of people. But I
guess in this case, you just gave some great examples

(41:24):
of the opposite.

Speaker 3 (41:25):
So that's interesting, there is and this is what So
where I first heard of Andreaopard just from Brothers of
the Serpent Marty Garzaz series on UFOs, and he talks
about this too, like there is a lot I've never.

Speaker 1 (41:40):
Heard of that. I'm just kidding. I love that everybody does.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
Yep, I'll send all your well wishes to Marty. But yeah,
he's been going through some troubles recently. But yeah, he
talked about there's like two sides to this coin kind
of exactly what you're talking about. Most of the time
you think like like Jack Parsons and like rockets and
you know, missiles and nuclear weapons or whatever it is.

(42:06):
But there is also this other component of it, and
a lot of it seems to be kind of like
these advancements and medicine, you know that all of a sudden,
like cured diabetes or like whatever it is. So yeah,
it does seem to have kind of like two sides
to that coin.

Speaker 1 (42:22):
Yeah, well that that to me makes it kind of
more interesting. I guess. I guess the whole idea that
I've sort of been promoting non scientifically, this idea of
like the this sort of the tendency for evil people
to find power and maybe and maybe get these gifts

(42:44):
of technology in exchange for losing something, you know, a
part of themselves, or innocence, becoming evil doing evil things.
Blah blah blah. It's got You're right, it's got to
be more complicated than that. That's like, that's a little
bit too Red Team Blue, Team Good Evil. It is interesting.
The acetyl coalin thing in a dream is pretty cool.

(43:05):
That's interesting, And obviously the insolent thing is interesting. So
who knows, man, I mean, maybe Tesla is certainly onto
something that this stuff comes from somewhere, and I guess
it could be wrong to just assume it's bad. You know.
Maybe maybe like all things in life, like money, like technology,
maybe it's amoral and it's people who can be good

(43:26):
or evil, you know.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
So anyway, okay, yeah, super interesting. Yeah. Hammond and Poharic
wondered if ESPA ESP worked on a mental radio channel,
something Tesla had suggested to Hammond previously. So the idea
was that ESP might travel on extremely low frequency waves

(43:49):
ELF waves, which were caused by thunderstorms, lightning, and disturbances
in Earth's magnetic field. In order to test this, they
built a Faraday cage. Only ELF waves could enter the box.
All other electrostatic and electromagnetic waves were blocked. They then
put psychics in the box and performed tests with Xener cards.

(44:11):
So the first psychic they put in the fair Day
cage was Eileen Garrett. So she was a famous Irish medium.
He was popular in New York City around the time.
But I think famously she didn't like being a medium
or something where she kind of hated all these people
that were around her. But she still you know, went
along with it because probably they paid her something. I
might be getting that story mixed up though. Anyways, they

(44:35):
poll Hark and Hammond claimed that her success increased with
the Xener cards went inside the Faraday Cage. So basically,
just really briefly, you have five symbols on a card,
and I guess you like pick one and you know
the answer and she doesn't, and you in your brain
think then try and like think the answer to her,

(44:57):
and then she like responds which card it is. It's
you know, kind of like a statistical analysis kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (45:03):
The experimental design is kind of like not intuitive to
me because I would have assumed they would establish like
a baseline success rate for her and then put her
in a room that does not allow elf to see
if it gets worse. But it sounds like they put
her in a room that allowed nothing but ELF to

(45:24):
show that it got better in the sense I guess
being that sort of actually like a filter like it
like concentrated or or her ability to tap into the
signal was elevated because it was the only signal around.
I guess it's kind of a less intuitive way of
doing it.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
But anyway, well that's what and you know, it's your
designing psychic experiments. Famous.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
Yeah, but they got they got money and scientists, they
should be able to figure this out anyway.

Speaker 2 (45:51):
But okay, but that's what they you know, and they go.
But there's also and at some point we'll have to
look at like there is a like Duke Statistical and
Analysis that came out that was like in favor of ESP.
And there's like something called the pair lab. So there's
some of these famous kind of like ESP experiments that

(46:12):
you know, run it. You know, this is kind of
a semi legitimate institution. There's one at more proper ones.
But it's interesting to see some of the results of
those and kind of battle back and forth on like
methodology and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
But she did better. She did better at box.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
Okay, so that's what they said. So they expanded their
test to include mental telepathy, map dowsing, astrology, and palm reading.
And so while they're doing this, Park also was interested
in auditory hallucinations, so people who were but people who
were normal other than hearing like strange voices or sounds

(46:49):
in their head. And so he worked with this guy
named Warren McCulloch who helped found the cybernetics movement and
was a CIA asset. So cybernetics is the science of
control and communication and the animal and the machine. And
this is back in the nineteen fifties when the cybernetics
movement gets going. He was the chairman for the Macy Conferences,

(47:11):
which was a kind of a famous funding source of
the of MK Ultra. And so cybernetics is something that
we'll have to get into because I want, I know
that you. I know your opinions on AI and all that,
and I agree as far as they go. But cybernetics
is a really interesting field of study that I think

(47:33):
has had like pretty profound implications on like our technological development,
and I want to get more into it with you
at some point.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
If anyone is curious now about my thoughts on AI,
you'll have to go listen to I just did an
interview yesterday or the day before. I don't think it's
out yet, but it was on the podcast The Biblical
hit Men and Man. There were actually two really incredible
co hosts. I'd only listened to a couple episodes beforehand,
and just super good, uh interviewers. Anyway, we get We

(48:04):
got into AI for probably like an hour, and I
think I think we definitely disagreed in a way. But
then by the end of the conversation, I think we
kind of at least I kind of realized that actually, no,
we pretty much agree. It's just it's it's a language thing.
Like it comes down to what you mean by AI,
by intelligence, by consciousness. But like all these words, we

(48:27):
all sort of define them differently anyway, So you and
I might agree in the end on AI on everything,
but I don't know, but we'll have to we'll have
to talk about that more.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Well, that's what I think it's like. Yeah, I mean,
I'm not smart enough to really understand the ins and
outs of it, so I don't even I just defer
pretty much to your opinion. Because you've had convincing dangerous Gabe, Well,
I just like I read I read your book seven times,
and I like the guy. I became like really familiar
with that argument. So yeah, yeah, when I have a

(48:58):
conversation with people, I can like, you know, I have
talking points.

Speaker 1 (49:01):
Nice. Nice, nice.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
But yeah, cybernetics is like one of these super interesting things.
I I'll go into it right now, but we'll start
looking at like some of the principles behind like cybernetics
and how they get like worked into machine learning and
you know, all these like you know, because.

Speaker 1 (49:18):
This is I'm fascinated by that because now you're now
you're actually connecting consciousness and intelligence machine intelligence. So to me,
that's like that's more profoundly disturbing the just AI on
his own, Like I think, I think AI is you're building,
You're building the machine that is intelligent but not conscious
and then so to tap into that with cybernetics somehow,

(49:40):
I mean, yeah, I think it gets really creepy, real fast.

Speaker 2 (49:44):
Yeah, And that's what they're just the way that they
like just the way that like I mean basically like
the language, like the codes, you know, like writing the
codes for computers and like all of like the like
fore fathers of that and kind of like sitting and
figuring out how like these loops work and like all

(50:05):
of the statistics in the math and like it's crazy.
So all that is crazy to me, and like cybernetics
is a big part of it. And it's all funded
by the CIA, it's all funded by the Pentagon. It's
all you know, government research. And so you get this
really interesting mix of topics and people and ideas and
so I'll get into it. But anyway, this guy is

(50:29):
so he has the CIA connection, and so we begin
to see kind of more of the intelligence community connection
with Boharic here as well. But so they had this
man with a he had a voice in his head,
and he was completely sane other than this voice in
his head. And most scientists of the day would have been, like,

(50:50):
you know, doctors of the day would have been like,
you're crazy, sorry, get in a room and be tied
up or whatever. But they did testing, and they actually
like did a dental examination, and they found that his
fillings were coated with this metallic dust and he'd been
working like in a shop that had where he was

(51:13):
inhaling this dust and I got caught on his fillings,
and what was actually happening is that the voice in
his head was a radio station that was being beamed
into his brain through his teeth.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
Shut your mouth. That's real.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
Yeah, that's a real happened, like like he was hearing
like a specific radio station in New York. That was like,
you know, he was picking up like a radio signal
through his mouth.

Speaker 1 (51:41):
Now, scientifically, I don't I still don't understand how that
would work. But wow, that's interesting.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
Okay, cool, Yeah, I'll get back to you with more details.

Speaker 1 (51:50):
No, no, it's fine. I could The amount you learn
from episode to episode, especially since we just recorded two
days ago, is to me it's insane. So he had
no worries.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
Yeah, and so more so, the Office of Psychological Warfare
for the Pentagon became interested in Park's work and they
asked him to travel to Washington to deliver a presentation
for the Office of the Chief of Psychological Warfare, which
is a really shitty name, but I don't think that
the government has ever been the best at naming things.

(52:23):
So but following this presentation, he was called back into
military service, and so he gives this presentation in the
military is like we need this guy. And he had previously,
like while he was in college, he was part of
an army program. I think they were like paying for
his school. And he had served in the military during
World War Two, but he didn't go overseas because he

(52:45):
had like an ear infection or something. So he had
worked for the military before and I think he was
like in reserve and so they called him back. And
this is like a big deal for him because he
had been having all this money thrown at him. He
got to design his own research lab. He was around
all these esoteric, rich kind of non conformists they were,

(53:10):
you know, and life was great. And now he's gonna
have to go work for the most conformist organization in
the world at the time, and so he is gonna
be a big turning point in his life.

Speaker 1 (53:23):
Sorry I did I must have missed what what? Why
did he have to do that?

Speaker 2 (53:30):
Like like he was I think he was in the
military and they called him back, like they let you know,
to like you pursue you know, his residency and like
let him do the Roundtable Foundation. But also in this time,
so this is from Jacobson's books, So we also have
to kind of like take it with a grain of
salt that he also could have been working for either
the military intelligence or for the CIA, like during this window,

(53:54):
and Okay, we need you to come back to like Edgewood,
we need you to come to Camp Dietrich, and we've
got some projects we're working on we want you involved.
So something like that happened, But the way she makes
it seem is like he didn't want to do it.
Maybe it's maybe it's not okay, Okay, before he goes back,

(54:15):
and this will kind of get into like what I
wanted to close with, which is like getting into this
thing with the nine. But so he before he goes back,
he goes to a party for Eileen Garrett, the Irish medium,
and this in New York City, and he meets a
Hindu scholar named doctor D. G. Vanad. So at the party,

(54:38):
Vanod and him were talking and Vanad was talking about
kind of like you know what he does, and he's
this mystic and into this esp thing. And so essentially
what he does is he holds one of Poharik's fingers.
It's like the middle section of his ring finger or
something like that, and Poharik claims that Over the next hour,

(55:01):
the nod repeated back to him his life story verbatim,
like with a scary precision.

Speaker 1 (55:09):
He held his finger for an hour, held.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
His finger and channeled his like it's called a retro cognition.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
At a party. At a party, the onlookers.

Speaker 2 (55:23):
I mean, they're probably you know, would you.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
Would you like another shrimp cocktail? Not right now, I'm
holding this man's finger, come back in an hour.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
But that's what I mean. Like it's a party for
an Irish psychic.

Speaker 1 (55:36):
Okay, so there's where everybody's holding fingers.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
And everyone palms, everyone's you know, it's one of those
it's one of those parts. Instead of pulling out the
guitar to play Jack Johnson, they're you know, holding each
other's ring fingers and tragic.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
I was picturing like a New York cocktail party for
rich people. Okay, completely different vibe, got it, got it?

Speaker 2 (56:00):
And then so this, uh so that's called chiromancy is
the name of what Vanada was doing. So I guess
there's like an official name for it, kind of like
well maybe these older practices, but Puharich, this is before
he's going back to the military. He's like what the fuck.
This is crazy. I'm gonna fly this guy back to

(56:21):
the Roundtable, and so he flies him to Maine, and
on New Year's Eve in nineteen fifty two, Vanad enters
the house in Maine that the Roundtable of a Foundation
is you know, kind of active, and he falls into
a trance, and so at Nutt says, at nine pm exactly,

(56:42):
a voice different from Vanad's emerges from Vanad, and for
ninety minutes the voice spoke to Paparich and his friend.
When Vanaud awoke, he claimed to have no knowledge of
what had happened, not know, kind of like what he
had said, and Poors was like, you know, furiously scribbling
notes this entire time, And so Poarch then grabs him.

(57:06):
He gets the boys and girls of the Round Table
Foundation together and they have a they have a seance.
So again we have Beaverat, which is an Astor, We
have DuPont, we have Forbes, her husband, Arthur Young, all

(57:26):
of them are there. The nine were channeled and spoke
of esp psychokinesis like, so that's moving things with your mind, teleportation, alchemy.
They talked about Einstein, Jesus, atomic weapons, cosmic grays. So

(57:46):
they really run.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
The whole man.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
Yeah, it sounds like a bad press.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
Podcast, Yes it does.

Speaker 2 (57:57):
And so DuPont has like letters.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
Can I just make a comment, I've never met someone
who it's so not obvious that you have dip in
your mouth.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
Well these little pouches, I.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
Know, I know, but I just the times I remember
doing that, like there would be no doubt that I'm talking,
But then I see you spit and I'm like, oh,
I had no idea. Okay, sorry, sorry, the theater of
the mind everyone, you just have to imagine what I'm seeing.

Speaker 2 (58:29):
But okay, But so like DuPont has like letters in
the Library of Congress that like detail kind of her
involvement with it, and then who are as written books?
So you have it kind of like from a couple
of different sources of like where this channeling of the
Nine comes from. But this was a big deal for Pooharic,

(58:53):
or at least it became a big part of his work.
So if you want to say that he is kind
of this like crazy, the kind of mad scientist, then
like he becomes obsessed with the nine, or if you
want to say that he's like running more of an op,
then like he uses the nine as the way to
kind of like work his op. So, yeah, like the

(59:18):
way that Jacobson presents it is that like he became
obsessed and took everything that had been said by the
nine literally, whereas some of the other people were kind
of like, oh, like this is an interesting metaphor, like
an allegory for whatever. He sets up another seance six

(59:41):
months later with the same members of the Foundation, and
by now they have gathered like they've discerned maybe through
the earlier channeling, like it was said, it's not really clear,
but what they're channeling is understood as the nine principal
gods of Egypt. So you have all of the gods

(01:00:04):
are part of the creator god Autum, and then the
other gods are Shoe, tough Nut, jeb gab Nut, Osiris,
isis seth Net this and then sometimes Horace. And so that's.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Where the that's just a funny It's like, that's like
a funny clarifier.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
And sometimes sometimes I read these things, I'm like what
is that. Even Orus is like checking out for like
forty and then he comes back to drop some knowledge
about yeah, and then he's like he's got a meeting.
So he's got to head out. But the other eight,
you know, the other eight are there. They're committed. So

(01:00:52):
in this seance, in this later seance that happens six
months later, the nine informed the group that they would
be responsible for bringing about a mystical renaissance on Earth.
So they revealed to the members that they were in
fact extraterrestrial beings hovering invisibly above the Earth and a spaceship. Okay,

(01:01:13):
so that's kind of so fun. Yeah, cooharic.

Speaker 1 (01:01:17):
Now this is about the time at the party where
I'm like, hey, guys, I got to get home. But listen,
it's been great. Thank you for your hospitality.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
It's three thirty am.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
I got work, Like, let's do this a good next week.
You know, I have a good one, everybody for me.

Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
You know. The coke, the coke fun at midnight, it
was fun at one. I'm getting a little strung out.

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
Horus already went home, Okay, like, give me a break.
Do you expect me to keep chandling with you? Got
horrors tapped out?

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
Yeah and so yeah. So at this point, it's like
before the roundtable had formed, it seemed like Bohara to
believe the secrets of his theory lay somewhere inside the
nervous system. But with these experiences, he's now firmly invested
in the idea that this energy force exists outside the body,

(01:02:09):
that it was some kind of non human intelligence that
was like the source of this.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
There must have been a couple howk girls at this thing.
That's the only explanation for this. Drugs Cocaine. There was cocaine?
Was there cocaine?

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
I don't know. I don't know about all that studied drugs.
I mean, he wrote a book called The Sacred Mushroom,
and he gets involved in the LSD experiments.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
Of Oh, then, yeah, there are drugs. What are you
talking about? Yeah? I think for me, that's one hundred
percent bullet proof evidence, air tight. They were doing shrooms. Okay,
I oscillate on this. I a lot of different things,
if you don't mind taking a momentary break to listen
to me ramble here. I there are times when I

(01:02:56):
hear these stories and I go, there is just fucking
demons in the world running the world, these reptilians, you know,
they're into this weird sit And then there's times when
I'm like, you know, I think there are just guys
and women. Smart guys. And I'm gonna say guys because

(01:03:18):
that's what I know, you know, being one myself. So
there are these smart guys out there that have father
wounds and it makes them an atheist, but they're curious
and they're smart, so they doubt that conviction and they
find a replacement. And there's been studies of like the
most prolific, well known atheists, and they're all smart, typically white,

(01:03:43):
but not always smart white guys with horrible relationships with
their father. And it is there is like something that
is like a fundamental stereotype of like the modern atheist.
But then I think a certain percentage of them I
don't really believe it. And then when someone comes along
and says, listen, seth isis sometimes horace. They're in a

(01:04:09):
spaceship and that's where the that time you spoke to
the German shepherd in your mind, that's actually that was them,
you know, And it does just kind of seem silly,
you know. So there's I go back and forth between
it's a global cabal and they're evil and they're giving
us technology and they're fallen angels and it's like no,

(01:04:30):
people just there's some people, weird people out there.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
What do you think?

Speaker 1 (01:04:33):
What do you make of it?

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
Well, that's what's so interesting about like why I wanted
to do Hark is like he's at this intersection of
you know, like the CIA runs remote viewing programs.

Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
Yeah, he's a physician working with army intelligence, right, Is
that correct what I'm saying. Yeah, So he's not not
a total drifter, right.

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
Well, and that's what like in his ideas, Like it's
not just like some obscure per and like trying to
start like a small cult, you know, out in Maine.
Like he has all these powerful people surrounding him while
this channeling is happening. You know, he's got a DuPont,
he's got an aster, he's got the guy who invented
the radio controlled torpedo, the guy that invented the helicopter.

(01:05:19):
And he also like becomes involved with like the most
famous like psychics that come along later. So he'll get
super involved with Uri Geller. I'm not sure if you
know who that is, but yeah, And so he gets
involved in this like the government research into remote viewing
and like these kind of programs, and so he's at
this intersection of like you know, serious people seeming to

(01:05:43):
take this very seriously. But also it's like there's this
psyop psychological warfare element to it. There's also like drugs involved,
like he's kind of crazy. So it's like this whole
blend of stuff and it's tough to like make any
sense of it. But like when looking into it, it's

(01:06:03):
like he's a great person to investigate because it's like
he is.

Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
That the heart of it all. Okay, all right, so
to be determined.

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
Yeah, and he will go very off the rails, seemingly.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
And so right now he's on the firmly on the rails.
He's talking like.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
He has started to he has started to like take
another track, okay. Or he was talking to Decroix, who
wrote Microbehunters, and now he's talking to sometimes Horace, Okay,
all right. So he has like another run in with
the nine, and like nineteen fifty six, there's a couple
that he comes across that say that they were channeling

(01:06:46):
the nine, and they give him like detailed notes on
what was said in like nineteen fifty three, and he
believes them. But then there isn't another interaction with the
nine until like nineteen seventy, so they kind of like
drop off the app for the most part.

Speaker 1 (01:07:03):
But big is this organization.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
The Roundtable Foundation.

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
Like when you say they he ran into the nine.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
Well, does that mean like like he ran into people
who said they were the same so.

Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
Those people who channel the nine? Is this like a
well established like religion, is it?

Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
Well, so that's why he neighbor Fred Like it's like
why he takes it pretty seriously, I guess is because
it isn't like this mainstream religious movement. He just like
runs into these people and he's talking to him and
they were like, oh, we know who you are. You know,
we've been channeling the Nine too. And there's also this

(01:07:43):
hm hmm like Jack like Sarfatti I think gets caught
up in some of this too. I think this is
later like in the seventies or something. But he's like
gets contacted by people claiming to be the nine, like
a metallic voice over the phone, and he's like wondering

(01:08:04):
if it's like an op being run against him when
he was a kid.

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
Yeah, I'm almost more inclined to believe that the mysterious
strangers who show up and tell you you're channeling than nine
are more likely to be like intelligence assets than Pharric.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
Yeah, well that's what. Yeah, and that's what it seems like.
It's like it's one of those where it's like the
way that Jacobson is approaching it is like, oh, he's
you know, kind of he starts this whole track and
then he later becomes involved with the military, whereas other
researchers are like, no, he was involved with military and
the intelligence community beforehand. And so this is just kind

(01:08:45):
of like one of those pieces of mythology that it's like,
it's not really an important part of the story. It's
just like to add to the mythos, you know, like
the you know, kind of the mysticism around it or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
I want to get a sense for whether I'm slowing
you down too much or not enough with my comments.
How far are you through.

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
Your No, this is what we're I'm almost done with
the perfect.

Speaker 1 (01:09:09):
I'm not slowing you down enough then, But okay, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:09:11):
No, that's what it's I like when you have comments,
so comment away. But yeah. So what's also important just
to recognize at this point is Arthur Young becomes a
huge player in kind of the New Age movement, and
so Arthur Young would go on to find he would

(01:09:34):
go on to found the Institute for the Study of
Consciousness at Berkeley in nineteen seventy two. It is like,
right when Edgar Mitchell the astronaut founds his Institute for
Neuedic Sciences, I think in kind of the same region
in nineteen seventy three. So Arthur Young is one of
these people that will, like, you'll start to see a

(01:09:56):
lot more of him kind of in this community and
kind of involved with you know, this type of stuff later.
But then this is just an interesting little tidbit because
there's a jfk assassination connection with Arthur Young. His wife,
will remember, is Ruth Forbes Young, and so Ruth Forbes

(01:10:22):
Young has a daughter by another man, by a previous marriage,
and her name is also Ruth. So it gets confusing,
but her name is Ruth Payne, and so Arthur Young's
I guess it's his stepdaughter. She gets married, and she

(01:10:48):
goes and moves to Dallas. And while she's in Dallas,
she becomes friends with Marina Oswald. Okay, she gets introduced
at this party for like immigrant white Russians, and so
she becomes friends with Marina Oswald and she's the one

(01:11:08):
that is said to have set up Lee Harvey Oswald's
job at the book depository, and so she's there, she
sets up the job for him, and then her and
her husband the Pains. I think they're like neighbors with
the Oswalts. Maybe they're the ones who give. Like the
police come and like are doing the investigation or whatever,

(01:11:30):
and they show the police where Lee Harvey Oswald hit
his rifle. They gave them the famous photograph where Lee
Harvey Oswald has the rifle in his hand. You know,
I think he's like smoking a cigar in the yard,
but it was like the one that it's the the
Lee Harvey Oswald picture. And they also give him the

(01:11:50):
give police the fake Alex Haddel documents. I don't really
know what those are, but anyways, they're like all around
the Oswald's.

Speaker 1 (01:12:00):
Wow, that's not suspicious, huh Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
And so then there's this she is testifying in Congress,
like whenever they set up the panel to investigate the
jfk assassination. She is being interviewed, and it was like
at one point they were either planning on traveling to Philadelphia,
which is where Ruth Forbes Young and where Arthur Young lived.

(01:12:26):
So it's like they're planning to travel or they did
travel to Philadelphia. I'm not sure which one it is.
But when this line of inquiry like comes up during
her testimony, like Alan Doles immediately like leads her down, oh,
being like, oh, well, they were just doing this instead
of suggesting that they were meeting with like Arthur Young

(01:12:48):
or Ruth Forbes Young, because that was her parents, and
like she was always like every summer she would go
back to Philadelphia to meet with her parents, and so
it was like, potentially there was this meeting scheduled or
potentially there was an actual meeting between me, like Lee
Harvey Osweald and Arthur Young.

Speaker 1 (01:13:03):
That's kind of oh man, so the bird so okay.
So but before before we go back to Arthur Young
and the Consciousness Institute and all that, these talks, like
these stories, there's a recurrent theme in it. It makes
me realize why I will never, either willingly or unwillingly
become an intelligence asset. And it's because I don't go

(01:13:26):
to parties. And every every single story about intelligence met
her at a party, you know, like they met they
met this person at a party. They went to this party,
met the channelers of the Nine and met Gallaine Maxwell
at a party. I don't go to parties, so I'm immune.
I cannot be I cannot be made an asset.

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
Okay, but I guess I guess. You know, it's it's changed,
so now you just have to go to you have
to go to Twitter parties.

Speaker 1 (01:13:54):
That's true. They could get that's they could get me online.
But I'm not very friendly online either, so it should
be okay. But unless unless you're my handler, in which
case Boom got me.

Speaker 2 (01:14:05):
If you were to just look at the facts of
my life currently, yeah, clear that I'm not a.

Speaker 1 (01:14:13):
Sounds good.

Speaker 2 (01:14:16):
Not not in the you know, in a high rise
in Nashville or anything.

Speaker 1 (01:14:21):
We'll be you know, we'll be determined. We'll see. You
know what they say about Nashville, it's you know, might
as well be Langley. Okay, all right, So you brought
up the tangent started with the consciousness and student in Berkeley.

Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
And that's what. Yeah, well, I'll probably get into that later,
but before it's kind of like we got to go
back and get so that's like the seventies, so we
got to kind of go back and we get it.
We got to get into camp ty Trick and Edgewood
Arsenal and into kind of his formal years, you know,
in the Belly of the Beast. We'll do that. We'll

(01:14:57):
do that next episode.

Speaker 1 (01:14:59):
So there's a part two.

Speaker 2 (01:15:00):
Yeah, there's gonna be a part two.

Speaker 1 (01:15:01):
Nice Okay, Okay, So yeah, because like I was gonna say,
like project artis joke has it hasn't really occurred in
our story yet right now it has that's to be
that's coming. So this this is his origin, so okay,
So he's he starts pretty mainstream and legitimate, gets approached
by some mysterious folks, starts channeling the nine. Maybe he's

(01:15:25):
already military at this point, maybe not. But he gets
invited back. And so does he end up working in
Berkeley or what? What was the Berkeley Consciousness Institute connection?

Speaker 2 (01:15:35):
That is Arthur Young? So Arthur Young, So this is
like the Roundtable Foundation is like late forty.

Speaker 1 (01:15:42):
Oh he's a part of the Roundtable Foundation. Okay, I
just didn't get the connection. The Arthur Young is and
so is p Hark. Okay, okay, all right, Yeah the
d Trick thing that is a weird connection, because yeah,
I'm I'm fairly convinced that that's where lyme disease and
other some other diseases come from, because there's like a
tick Born Disease vector Research Institute in d Trick. And

(01:16:06):
if I recall that the first case of lyme disease
was somewhere in that vicinity, whereas.

Speaker 2 (01:16:12):
For t Trick, Maryland.

Speaker 1 (01:16:14):
Okay, yeah, so it's in the Appalachia, you know, adjacent,
So okay, uh yeah, anyway, sorry, that's the end of
my point. So what so what will we learn next time?

Speaker 2 (01:16:29):
So we're gonna get into like just we'll probably get
into some of just the sheer insanity happening at Camp
Dietrick in this time. Like this is one of like
this is really where like the development of like biological weapons. Yeah,
like post World War two. Like I think they set
it up during World War Two because they're like, fuck,

(01:16:49):
we got to catch up with the Nazis who are
way ahead of us. They then bring in Nazis through
Operation paper Clip to advise to advise operations at Fort
d Trick. This is where the I mean biological weapons
also ties into psychological warfare weapons. So you're talking about
like that's where poop Park is going to come in
with like the LSD and the mescaline and you know,

(01:17:11):
some of these other substances drugs, you know, drug warfare.
And then you know at the like Fort Dietrich, you know,
there's a case where they like release like an airborne
pathogen in San Francisco.

Speaker 1 (01:17:26):
Just oh yeah, off the destroyer, right off of the
battleship in the harbor, just to.

Speaker 2 (01:17:31):
See what happens, you know, just to kind of.

Speaker 1 (01:17:34):
Yeah, maybe it might not be the worst idea in
San Francisco, might need a fresh start up there in
the bay. But whatever it was, it didn't work.

Speaker 2 (01:17:42):
So yeah, and so there's all this crazy and like
it's a site of MK Ultra and you know they
haven't I mentioned earlier the suicide slash murder of Frank Olsen.
So that's a crazy story. So maybe we'll get into
a little bit of that that probably deserves maybe its
own kind of a series or whatever. But anyways, we're

(01:18:02):
gonna get into some of that stuff, and then if
we can blow through that in a timely fashion, we'll
get onto Pooharic meeting with like these famous psychics and
these Uri Geller is a man from Israel. He's a
psychic from Israell and Park basically brings him over to

(01:18:23):
the United States, lets the military run a bunch of
experiments on him. He gets really popular in the media.
He starts going on like late night shows kind of
like that whole thing. And so that's kind of like
Pooharak's later career.

Speaker 1 (01:18:38):
How did what's the end up?

Speaker 2 (01:18:40):
You are?

Speaker 1 (01:18:40):
I mean, not Poharc It's not I guess maybe not
the right time to say, but is it a spoiler?
Can he tell us? Like how does this? I think?

Speaker 2 (01:18:46):
I think, like what ends up happening is like it
seems like he kind of goes like he kind of
gets a little too crazy, and so he writes, like
I said, he wrote this book called like the Sacred Mushroom.
He writes a book called Ury. He gets involved in
like these esp remote viewing SRI like Stanford Research Institute experiments,

(01:19:08):
and then it kind of seems like he like does
so many drugs and gets you know, involved with so
many psychics that he kind of like I don't know
if he like I haven't really actually seen whether or
not he like dies or or kind of what happens
to him. But like I said, he started.

Speaker 1 (01:19:24):
He goes off the rails.

Speaker 2 (01:19:25):
Yeah, he's gone. He's going down a weird track right now,
and eventually he will kind of fall off the file
like fall off the rails.

Speaker 1 (01:19:35):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:19:36):
There's also there's just one more thing that I want
to say, just because it came up during the Epstein series,
But during the seventies, the Bronfman's become a funder for
activities around the Nine in the seventies, and so.

Speaker 1 (01:19:53):
I still don't understand like when you say the Nine,
because because these are not people, these are gods allegedly, right,
So like who's being funded? Like who are these people?
This group? That's what like is it a mystery?

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
Yeah, that's kind of what. Like I like there's somehow
and maybe like even I'll start like asking some questions
to you know, because I really don't know that much
about like like I wasn't just like rattling off these
news I had to go read. So there's like, you know,
some of our friends in the discord probably know, you know,
have a little bit more insight into kind of like

(01:20:30):
what happens. But the Nine, like it's in the modern
day UFO mythology, Yeah, it has like it's become like
kind of this cultural icon kind of this.

Speaker 1 (01:20:46):
That makes that makes me so suspicious when there's like
cultural movements, well funded, quasi religious movements that no one
knows what they started. It's like, what is this, what
is going on? I don't I don't like that, but
that's what.

Speaker 2 (01:20:58):
Yeah, it's just like it's arts here with the Roundtable Foundation.
It has all these rich people, it has the inventors,
it has someone who goes on to like form the
you know, Institute for Consciousness in Berkeley, Like it has
like the seeds have been sown.

Speaker 1 (01:21:18):
So it's hard for me to believe that a group
of rich people get together and make up the Nine.
It seems that either and believe it right. It seems
that either something occurred that would cause them to truly
believe this, like you know, they were successful in their

(01:21:39):
attempts to channel something or whatever. Or it's like intentional misdirection, Yeah, misinformation,
because I don't I don't think like all these powerful
people get together and like just invent this belief system. Yeah,
unless unless there's a purpose beyond it.

Speaker 2 (01:22:01):
That's what I Those are like the two options the
same thing. Two options for me. Either it's like an
intentional op like an intentional like disinformation campaign in order
to like influence spiritual movements and do like weird stuff
with like the New Age movement, or they actually channeled

(01:22:22):
something and it was like a deceiver, you know, because
it's always like a trickster or whatever exactly. But they
but they like you know, some elements of them like
bit really hard on it, and that this is like
what kind of happens and spins out from the nine
as kind of like the agenda of a non human

(01:22:44):
intelligence or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:22:45):
So I know, that's interesting. What what hmm, Yeah, I
don't know. I I kind of tend to lean towards
the former that this was some kind of weird misinformation
eye off kind of a thing. But I mean, like
earlier at the beginning, you said that that the Heart

(01:23:07):
is sort of credited as the father of the New
Age movement, and now even you even qualified that and
said that seems a little dramatic, But like why is
he considered that?

Speaker 2 (01:23:17):
I mean what, because then we'll start to see like
really this New Age, like the New Age begins to
like spin dramatically in the sixties and seventies, and a
lot of it becomes you know, kind of wound up
in like I said, these people who are original members
of the Roundtable Foundation, because like right now we're talking

(01:23:38):
about early nineteen fifties United States, Like there's not a
lot of nonsense happening.

Speaker 1 (01:23:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, times are too good.

Speaker 2 (01:23:47):
Yeah in fifteen years, like when you get into the
late sixties.

Speaker 1 (01:23:52):
And so he's at the center of that cultural revolution, Okay, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:23:55):
Yeah, And that's what it's like. And that's what I
mean is like we don't necessarily like, you know, he's
not like a Timothy Leary. He's not you know, some
of these figures that crop up in the sixties. But
he was doing research into LSD and doing research into
like channeling and you know, working with psychics and stuff

(01:24:17):
like that. Like he was kind of one of these
original original people involved in that movement. So that's kind
of like why.

Speaker 1 (01:24:24):
Does he ever cross paths with Parsons?

Speaker 2 (01:24:28):
That's an interesting question. I don't think, you know, because
Parsons dies like right around this time, and so Bark
is in Chicago, like in medical schools still seemingly kind
of like has some weird ideas, but it's still you know, legitimate,
and then Parsons is on the other side of the country.

Speaker 1 (01:24:47):
So well, Parsons is summoning hot redheads in the desert.
Baharik is learning about neuro anatomy. That's right, Okay, different
we all have, we all take different tracks, all right, man,
Well that that's that's pretty interesting. I'm excited to learn more.
I keep more. Questions keep popping in my head. But

(01:25:07):
I think it's a part of part two. So what
do you want to leave folks with? Man? Question? Are
we playing our interest song? Is an outro song? That's
the main question? Or will we never should that song
never see the light of day again?

Speaker 2 (01:25:21):
I think it should never see the light. So my
son just came to give me cookies.

Speaker 1 (01:25:28):
Oh nice, hey, buddy.

Speaker 2 (01:25:30):
We'll say hi. They we're very shy, so I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:25:34):
I don't. I don't blame you. I wouldn't want to
say hi to me either, but it's fine. Can I
ask you what his name is? I don't Elliott Elliott? Yes,
what you said, that's funny. Almost named my son Elliott.

Speaker 2 (01:25:49):
Elliott. Thank you for the cookies?

Speaker 1 (01:25:54):
All right? Well? That made that made me want to
go eat something out of my fridge. So we've been
at this for a while, so everyone. Thank you for listening.
It's nice to meet you. Elliott. He's gone, David, thank dude,
thank you. We spoke three days ago, two days ago.

Speaker 2 (01:26:12):
Yeah, Friday night, two days ago.

Speaker 1 (01:26:14):
So in the last two days you have become a
booharic expert. You have been Gary. Well, you might not
describe yourself that way, but I'm giving you that title.
You have prepared our new sub stack series on King Arthur,
which will be coming.

Speaker 2 (01:26:31):
Out when probably this week. I think we're gonna the
first post, yeah, middle of the week, maybe later in
the week, but yes, look out for it. So it's
not gonna be King Arthur. It's bronze age mining in Britain.

Speaker 1 (01:26:46):
Okay, okay, yeah, so that a should I should qualify
that though. This is sort of the broader topic that
Peter is interested in, which sort of encompasses King Arthur
to some extent. But I think we should put the
episodes with Peter Unhappy Fools and then the episode with
Peter on Brothers of the Serpent. I think we should

(01:27:06):
put that on our substack. Yeah, just so it's just
so it's all in one place. So if people are
interested in learning more about Peter, go to Hemispheric Press
dot substack dot com, and.

Speaker 2 (01:27:17):
We're gonna have it.

Speaker 1 (01:27:18):
Cheess Corner is what it's gonna be called, Jesus Corner Corner.

Speaker 2 (01:27:23):
So it's gonna have Bronze age mining in Britain. He's
gonna have we'll post those interviews. We'll get some King
Arthur's stuff up there eventually. But if that's your thing,
if you love the history of Britain, or even if
you just want to know a little bit more, he
has got you covered. And so that'll be featured. Jesus
Corner stuff to be featured, yeah, later this week.

Speaker 1 (01:27:44):
And Cheese Cheese is his username and the Brothers of
the Serpent discord, if people are.

Speaker 2 (01:27:49):
His last name is chess Bro and so from an
early age his nickname was Cheese because of Chess and
his name. So okay, a little bit a little bit
of Peter lore.

Speaker 1 (01:28:01):
Right, Oh okay, all right, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:28:04):
Only that was Unhappy Fools though.

Speaker 1 (01:28:07):
Yeah, I know I'm just acting surprise. Sorry, sorry, I
know that they don't know that, the listeners don't know that,
but yeah, check out Happy Fools. That's another fun show
that I do. All right, everybody, David, thank you, sir.
Talk next week.

Speaker 2 (01:28:20):
Yes, and remember, folks, there's no such thing as bad press.

Speaker 1 (01:28:24):
We'll see you later, just bad people see you, David

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