Recalling my interview with Curt Gowdy | Ep. 006

In the early 1990's, I had the chance to interview the legendary Curt Gowdy about his new book, "Seasons to Remember."  The book covered the years 1945-60.  We discussed the book and so much more.  I hope you enjoy the conversation I had with this great sportscaster. 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome a Baseball Discourse with your hostDan Lavallo. Hi everybody, and welcome
to this edition of Baseball Discourse.I am putting this podcast together on the
opening day of the twenty twenty fourbaseball season. What better time to do

(00:20):
this. It's opening day of thebaseball season, March madness is in full
swing for basketball, and football isalways in the news, and thus I'm
going to replay an interview I didwith a late great broadcaster, Kurt Gowi,
back in the early nineteen nineties.Let me give you a little background.

(00:44):
Kurt had just completed writing a book, Seasons to Remember, and the
book focused on the seasons between nineteenforty five and nineteen sixty. You can
make a strong case that really wasthe last innocent era of sports, before
big time television swooped in, beforethe league started to expand and merge and

(01:11):
even challenge each other. All thiswas taking place, and Goudy writes about
this period between nineteen forty five andnineteen sixty And keep in mind, at
this point Kurt's career had also takenoff. He went from broadcasting college sports
to broadcasting games for the New YorkYankees as Mel Allen's sidekick and then becoming

(01:34):
the voice of the Boston Red Sox. So Kurt had seen a lot and
he was also doing games on thenational stage as well, and of course
his career really took off after that, doing the Game of the Week on
NBC for baseball, later the WorldSeries, the Super Bowl, all the
big events. So here is myinterview with Kurt Goudi about that book,

(01:59):
and it covers, as I said, during that period between nineteen forty five
and nineteen sixty baseball, football,basketball, gambling, which is in the
news. It's all here in theinterview I did with Kurt Gouty almost thirty
years ago. In Jerk Gouty broadcastWorld Series on television, Super Bowls,

(02:23):
NCAA basketball title games, NBC's Gameof the Week, and for many years
you remember him in these parts asthe voice of the Boston Red Sox,
and we are pleased to welcome himto our program this morning. Good morning,
Kurt, Good morning dad. Howare you good? How are you
all right? Kurt? Why didyou choose this particular period nineteen forty five

(02:46):
to nineteen sixty to write about.Now that's the way it used to be
simpler, Times, Innocent Times.Nineteen forty five was the end of World
War Two. The nation was stylefor the boys came home from overseas and
the Service and went back on theplaying fields and basketball courts, and there

(03:07):
was no free agency. Then theplayers were bound to one team. They
were only sixteen Major League teams,no teams west of the Mississippi. We
traveled by train mostly in the forties, then started air travel when the Giants
and the Dodgers moved to the Westcoast. And I shut it off at
nineteen sixty because that was when televisionstarted to really arrive. Shut it off

(03:31):
at Ted Williams last home run atback in September of nineteen sixty. ABC
had formed a sports department, apowerful young sports department. They won the
RICE to the telecast the college footballgames, overpaid for him. They won
the RICE to the American Football League, and nothing would be the same again

(03:52):
because the three networks were all competitivelybidding against each other, and suddenly millions
and millions of dollars was fueled intosports, and then things became complicated.
So I chose those fifteen years fromthe end of World War two to nineteen
sixty as real simpler times and lesscomplications, and the story was on the

(04:14):
ball games and that was it.There wasn't all the other side deals going
on, you mean Kurk. Backthen, we picked up newspapers and they
actually wrote about the games instead ofsalary squabbles. Oh yeah, there wasn't
any mention as salaries. I rememberTommy Henry telling me he tried to get
a three thousand dollars raise one yearfrom Ed Barrow, the tough general manager

(04:36):
of the Yankees. And I thinkTommy hit about two eighty five, but
he knocked in one hundred runs.So Berrow says, Henrick, you didn't
hit three hundred, we're going tocut your salary. And Henrick says,
well, you want me to hitthree hundred, I will says, I'll
quit button and moving players and runnersup on the bases and trying to get

(04:59):
some runs in. And he said, I'll forget about urbis and just hit
singles and if that's what you wantedby the average, and bell I said,
no, no, no, wedon't mean it that way. I'll
give you a thousand dollars raised,and Henry had to take it. They
cut demagios try to cut his salaryafter he hit fifty six games in a
row. You see, the ownershad a stranglehold on the players. They
had nowhere to go. It wasunfair. It's unfair now the way depending

(05:25):
on the swung the other way.With labor, they can shut baseball down.
What if they go on strike alabor they liked their claiming they might,
it will shut the game down andruin the playoffs in the World Series.
But in those days, the playerstook what they could get and were
happy about it. And don't thinkthey wouldn't have taken the big money in
those days if they had the meansto do it. But they just didn't
have the means to do it now. There was a stretch, of course,

(05:46):
during that nineteen forty five to sixtyperiod when both Ted Williams and Joe
DiMaggio were two of the stars ofbaseball. Were they like the Magic Johnson
and Larry Bird rivalry? Could weequate it to that basketball rivalry? Oh,
you sort of could. Williams wasyounger. He came up in nineteen

(06:08):
thirty. He came up in thirtynine. I think Demaju came up in
thirty five or thirty six. Tedwas six or seven years younger than Joe,
but with a great rivalry between theYankees and the Red Sox. This
was even more in the coast tocoast rivalry between Larry Bird and Magic Johnson.
Plus these two fellows were bigger.They were great stars. And well

(06:31):
they have two records that haven't beenbroken. And Williams hit the last player
to hit four hundred. John Olarudehad a shoutout of this year. But
nobody's done it since Williams in nineteenforty one. And nobody's hit fifty six
games in a row the way Demajudid. He went hitless to break the
streak, and then he hit safelyin sixteen more games he could who knows

(06:51):
to have hit maybe some consecutive games. But they were real stars, and
they were crowd players. And theold argument used to be which is the
best Williams or Demaggio. That wasa big cry around New England. Well
who was better? Oh, demajowas a better all around player, a
better fielder, better base runner,stronger throwing arm, and he was a

(07:13):
good hitter. But he himself saidthat Williams was the greatest hitter the game's
ever had, Williams was my mind. I never saw the old timers as
Cobb speaker and Hornsby was a greatright handed hitter, Ruth, but I
never saw a player to hit likeTed Williams, and I do think he's
the best of all times. Plushe played in a park Fenway Park,

(07:33):
which is against the left handed pollhitter. How close did that trade between
the Yankees and the Red Sox involvingWilliams and DiMaggio come to happening? We
heard stories that they might have hada conversation the owners of the Yankees and
Red Sox, Tom Yacke and DanTopping about a possible trade. Did that
ever come close? I don't thinkso. I was up at a party.

(07:57):
Jockey had a little party one nightup and he switted the Riff Hotel
in Boston, and he called mein the bathroom, close the door,
and he says, Kurt, theYankees are interested in making a deal between
us. They want to trade usJoe Demagio and we want Hank Bauer,
and I think a couple of righthanded hitters or a pitch or something,

(08:18):
three or four players the Yankees wouldgive the Red Sox for Ted Williams he
said, would you make that deal? And I says no. I said,
if you could get two or threepitchers, starting pitchers, I might.
But I said, Williams is youngerthan Demajio. And I said,
I was with the Yankees in fortynine and fifty and he's hurt all the

(08:39):
time, he's proud. I said, he won't play beyond his time.
When he thinks that he can't performto his custom style, he'll get out.
And Williams went on and played untilninth through nineteen sixty. So when
that trade it was discussed, Ithink it was nineteen and fifty one or
fifty fifty it was discussed. Williamsplayed ten more years and Demaje retired in

(09:03):
fifty one. I think it wasgood the Red Sox didn't make the deal.
They were talking, and you know, owners are like anybody else.
I started gamblers. I think theygot intrigued with the idea Demajo had hit
a lot of home runs in Bostonwould have left field wall, and Williams
had hit a lot of home runsin Yankee Stadium. Let's make the deal
and see what happens. But itsoon died out. We're talking with legendary

(09:26):
sportscaster Kurt Goudi, who has writtenthe book Seasons to Remember the Way It
Was in American Sports nineteen forty fiveto nineteen sixty, published by HarperCollins and
available at bookstores throughout Litchfield County.Kurt, Litchfield County is evenly divided between
Yankees fans and Red Sox fans,and for the first time in a while,
both teams are in a pennet race, although Toronto now has a three

(09:48):
game lead over both ball clubs.What was the rivalry like back then,
particularly since in nineteen forty nine youbroadcast Yankee games when the Yanks and Red
Sox lockhorns in a bit big kindof brace. I was a season forty
nine that went down to the lastday of the year. The Yankees beat
the Red Sox on consecutive day Saturdayand Sunday to win. The Red Sox

(10:11):
came in leading by one game.I know one thing I've never seen anything
since like that weekend series. Fromthe first pitch of the game, there
was a constant role in the standand they roared for two and a half
three hours and never quit. TheWorld Series between the Yankees and the Phillies
was at an anti climax. Itwas almost Deadville compared to that weekend series

(10:33):
with the Yankees and Red Sox.There must have been thirty thousand Red Sox
fans. There probably thirty or fortyYankee fans there, and it was really
something. It was the same innineteen fifty the Red Sox had another good
club with favored to win. Andthen in fifty one the Red Sox led
going into September and the Yankees beatthem out. If the Red Sox had

(10:56):
had any pitching, they would havewon. All those years. They only
had two pitchers, Parnell and Kinder. The Yankees had a great starting threesome
of Eddie Lowpad, Ali Reynolds andVic Rashie. They had the best bullpen
pitcher baseball and Joe Page. TheYankees had the pitching that the Red Sox
didn't have. That was always theRed Sox weakness. Now this year,

(11:18):
the Red Sox are not the RedSox. They're not the home run sluggers
and the great hitters of yesteryear.They've got a good pitching staff and a
young one. Aaron Seely's come up. He's a terrific young pitcher, they
got Quantrill, They've got a solidpitching staff. They'll probably keep them in
this Pennant race. Is the rivalrystill as heated as it was? I

(11:39):
don't think so, because the Yankeeswent into doldens for so many years.
Do you think the fact that twoclubs don't play as often anymore also hurts
the rivalry? What was that?Do you think the fact that two clubs
don't play as often anymore? Iguess back then they played twenty two times.
I see both clubs are loaded withstars. In those days, you

(12:00):
had De Maijio, you had HenryCharlie Keller, Bill Dickie, great players.
Then Maddal comes along and Marris andbreaks the home run record, and
Kuebeck, Bobby Richardson, Yogi Bearraall stars. The Red Sox had Bobby
Dorr, Vern Stevens, great RBIman, home run hitter. They had

(12:22):
stars both clubs and kept the fansinterested in each franchise, and they hated
each other. The Red Sox havehated the Yankees ever since they sold Bab
Bruce to the Yankees, the biggestmistake ever made in baseball. But in
recent years, the Yankees got sobad that the Red Sox ever forgot about
him. I think, I meanforgot the hatred. Now, maybe it'll

(12:46):
spring up again with the Yankees backin the penner race. They haven't been
in the penner race for how longnow? Since the mid nineteen eighties,
the last time they were in apenny race. In the book, you
also write about college basketball and thecollege basketball betting scandals. How close did
that come to destroying college basketball?Well, it destroyed college basketball at Madison

(13:07):
Square Garden. It's back again,but nothing like it was in those days.
They used to have those big doubleheaderseighteen thousand, every doubleheader and bring
in Stanford from the West coast withthe ankles SETI and Oklahoma A and M
and all the fine teams in America. Ed Irish promoted those doubleheaders, and
basketball was a huge sport in NewYork City. I know, I did

(13:30):
all the games at the Garden innineteen fifty fifty one and fifty two or
nineteen fifteen fifty one, and Idid the double Slam when City College beat
one both the NT and the NCAA, and the NIT was bigger than those
days. The next year they werefavored to win the national title, and

(13:50):
they started losing some games. NowHere I was, I was telecasting the
games. I didn't think there wasyou know, I didn't even think about
shaving points of throwing games. Onenight they went down to Philadelphia. Now
the fix was off. The playersdecided not to shave any more points or
fix any more games. But thedetectives were on the train, and the

(14:11):
City College be a good Temple teamby twenty or twenty five points. Two
detectives approached not home on the CityCollege coach on the train and said,
nat, we're taking three of yourboys in. And Holmer says, what
four? And he says, oh, they've been fixing games. He says,
I can't believe it. And hewent to the three players and he

(14:35):
told them to just tell the truth, boys, and everything will come out.
It came out all right. Theytook them off at ten station in
handcuffs and they held their wrists overtheir face so they couldn't be photographed,
and were arrested. As the frontpage story on the New York Times,
and then more and more came outabout Silly college straying games, players being

(14:56):
paid. Then I was having lunchbe the famous coach at Long Island.
I'll never forget Dan. He tookhis wallet out, slammed it on the
table, and said, I'll betmy money, my home, my wife,
everything I have that my players areclean. Three days later they arrested
Sherman White, He's best player forfixing games. So these coaches didn't even

(15:18):
know this. The coaches didn't know. You say, well, how can
a coach not know? The coachdidn't think that players at that time were
these fixing games and throwing games thatthey could be got to. We had
another minor scandal in the early eightiesof Boston College. But the only school
I think wasn't involved with Saint John'sand Joe Lapchick was the head coach there.

(15:43):
Maybe I don't know why, butanyway, they were clean and Lapschik
kept a big scrap book and everyseason after these scandals he'd call a squad
in and spent a morning or anafternoon looking at the scrapbook showing the players
in the police station hiding their heads. Their lives were ruined. They were
never the same again. They werecheaters. And then when lou Carniseca took

(16:10):
over at Saint John's, every year, he told me. He repeated the
same thing. Bring the players in, show him the scrap book of the
college basketball scandals. Kentucky's Ralph Bard. All Americans, Luke grows to.
All American were involved, and Bradleywas involved, and nearly spread across the
country, and the public lost alot of confidence in basketball. So there

(16:32):
hasn't been an NCAA playoff game inNew York City since then. They used
to hold a lot of the NCAAtournaments in New York City at the Big
Manison Square Garden. They were goneback. Luckily the basketball on the campus
was saved, and now basketball hascome back college basketball in New York.
But I'll tell you this much,teams today should stay on guard, should

(16:56):
talk to their players, warn themabout talking to anybody who discussed the shaving
points of fixing games and reporting themimmediately to the team or to the authorities,
because it could happen again. Andnow there's so much more money involved
than there was that. But hereI am. I played basketball at Wyoming.
I knew the game, and Isat there and didn't even recognize they

(17:18):
were throwing games. College football backduring that period nineteen forty five to nineteen
sixty was more popular than the NFL. Was there a defining moment during that
fifteen year period where you could seethe pendulum swinging towards professional football as far
as popularity was concerned. I thinktelevision made that Man my first big game

(17:42):
I ever broadcast. I went toOklahoma City to go to work for a
station there and have the exclusive rightsto the University of Oklahoma football. We
didn't know what Oklahoma had Here wasnineteen forty six. The boys were back
from the war. Some of thesekids were twenty three twenty four year old
freshmen who'd been in the Battle ofthe Bulls and been wounded overseas and eujimo

(18:04):
and now they're back playing college football. There were men. Oklahoma was six
touchdown underdogs against Army and played Armyoff its feet with Blanchard, Davis and
Tucker and nearly beat him. Sothat was a sign that the men were
back in sports and Army could nolonger dominate. They were undefeated that year,
but not to name won the nationaltitle. But Army used to crush

(18:26):
everybody sixteen and nothing. They hadto pick of college football athletes who could
transfer from the school to West Pointand get a commission, Davis Blanchard,
Tucker Pool, Fulson. They hadthe greatest college players in America. Along
about the late forties and early fifties, television started to move into pro football

(18:52):
and the Dumont Network and then CBStook over. If ever a game was
made for televis vision, it wasfootball, especially pro football, You'd say,
well, the fields one hundred yardslong, how could it be good?
Well, the T formation. Theplay started with a quarterback taking the
ball from the center. The camerafocused on the exchange there widened out if

(19:15):
it was a running play. Ifthe ball was thrown, it could follow
the ball down the field of onecamera and then a wide shot pick up
the receiver. It was built foraction. Baseball was sort of slow compared
to this violent game of these guysrunning into each other at full speed and
all the tremendous hits they had inthe game. And the giant Baltimore overtime

(19:37):
game in the mid fifties was theturning point for pro football and it was
on its way. So I thinktelevision really was a difference and why it
passed college football. Kurt Gotti isa member of the Broadcasters wing of the
Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown,New York, and for many years,
along with Tony Kubeck, was thebroadcaster for NBC Game of the Week.

(20:00):
Kurt, the television package is goingto change after this year, and there
really is going to be no moreSaturday afternoon Game of the Week. What
are your thoughts on that. Ihate to see it now. If I'm
a network executive and I've got thispackage that's been the last four years,
the CBS owns now and I'm notgetting very good ratings on Saturday, and

(20:21):
I say to myself, you know, why are we spending this money going
out to these remote all these camerasand everything, and we're not getting good
ratings, and let's get rid ofit all. They tried doing a way
they did some of the games.And when I did the Game of the
Week, we did twenty six Saturdaysin a row. Every Saturday of the
season. You knew there was goingto be the best game in the major

(20:42):
leagues that day unless it was atnight. But a lot of clubs didn't
play at night then, and theyarranged it so they wouldn't play at night
for this Game of the Week.We got very good ratings for a Saturday
afternoon not as good as prime timebecause there weren't as many people in the
home. The youngsters could watch it. Night games I did the first World

(21:03):
Series night game ever played between Pittsburghand Baltimore. Night games was started at
eight thirty and wind up at eleventhirty. At midnight, a lot of
the kids had gotten to bed then. I think Baseball lost touch with some
of the younger fans in America.They've got to get back again. This
new package is a blow to MajorLeague Baseball. The income has been cut

(21:25):
in half. They're going to getabout half what they got for the recent
package with CBS, where CBS lostfive hundred million dollars. But Baseball has
to rely now on selling the gamesto sponsors along with NBC and ABC,
and then they'll divvy up the returns, with Baseball taking the major share.

(21:48):
They're not even getting paid money upfrontthe way they used to be, so
each ball club will lose probably teneleven million dollars in income, and that's
going to affect the player's market.These huge side always have been fueled by
television money. Don't kid yourself,do you think we'll see a strike come
September. I certainly hope not.I just think it would be the ruination

(22:08):
of everything when they would strike likethat. Their argument is, and I
don't think they're going to strike.What their argument is that that's the only
time we have leverage. Well,that would be a real leverage to scare
the owners that they wouldn't have theplayoffs in the World Series be a real
blow to baseball. It would bea public relations nightmare, though I certainly

(22:30):
would. What I'm surprised at,Dan is the fans have kept coming back
strike after strike. I say,well, they'll be sick of this or
disgusted with it, and there theyare right back out again, flocking in,
watching television again. They never seemto get tired of it. But
there's one time that they're going toget sick of it, and baseball is
going to suffer unless they can getthese labor disputes. I don't know what

(22:53):
they're striking about. The players,my lords, the average salary's over a
million dollars. They got the greatestpitchion plan in America. What do you
want to strike about? The incredibleCURTI final question, you talk about the
fans still coming back. And Iwas at the Baseball Hall of Fame inductions
on Sunday and there were thousands offans crammed into the little village of Cooperstown

(23:15):
for Reggie Jackson's induction. It wasquite a thing. You've been there.
You were at the mic when ReggieJackson hit that mammoth home run in the
All Star Game at Detroit. Whatdo you remember about that call and that
home run. I remember when theball off the bat and there was going
to be a home run, butit kept sailing higher and higher and higher,

(23:37):
and I was amazed at the lengthin the distance, and then it
struck up by the light towers onthe roof and right field at Detroit and
Williams was one of their first onesthat ever hit a ball over the roof
there. But it was a mightyblow, four hundred and fifty to five
hundred feet. Jackson always did thatin big games. I remember, this

(23:57):
is the truth. Dan, wego to do the Game of the Week
and he'd be waiting for Tony andme, so they got to have some
ink. He had an ego beyondbelief, but he was likable. He
had a real ego and he said, I want to I got to have
some publishy give me throwed me up. I said, we'll do something today.
And every time we did a gameof the league he hit a home
run. He used to come through. I thought he gave. I read

(24:18):
his speech. I thought it wasvery good, especially warning the players about
the traditions of the game. Yousee, Ted Williams love baseball. He's
still a fan of the game.And he and Reggie Jackson and Pete Rose
were the best players for history andstatistics about the old timers that I ever

(24:40):
met, which means they're all fansof the game. Jackson had some good
things to say about keeping this tradition, rolling that the game was a little
different, it's unique and the playersof today must remember that uniqueness and tradition
about it. And in his speechhe said, no one is bigger than
the game. It was a tremendoustalk. Again. The name of this

(25:02):
book Seasons to Remember by Kurt Gowdy, published by HarperCollins, available at bookstores
in Litchfield County. Kurt, thanksvery much for coming on the program and
sharing your memories with us this morning. Thank you Dan very much. What
an era to be a sports broadcasterin many respects was the Golden age sports
on television and of course the radio. Kurt Gowdi died on February twentieth,

(25:27):
two thousand and six, at hishome in Palm Beach, Florida. He
was eighty six years of age.He was buried in Cambridge, Massachusetts,
and in fact, his funeral processioncircled around Fenway Park. Well, there
you have at my interview with thelate great Kurt Gowdie. I hope you
enjoyed it. You know, it'sinteresting the more things change, sometimes the

(25:52):
more they stay the same. Asalways, thanks for watching and listening to
Baseball Discourse. You can subscribe tothe channel. We also have it in
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