Rising Above: A Journey from Addiction to Purpose with Harry Cunnane

In this powerful episode of Be A Voice, we sit down with Harry Cunnane, a man who transformed his life from the depths of opiate addiction to becoming a voice of hope and change. Harry shares his personal story of struggle and resilience, reflecting on how the birth of his first child sparked a life-altering journey towards recovery. As an author of Under Our Roof, Harry offers deep insights into his experience and the lessons learned along the way. Today, as the director of Ghost Pepper - Bold Purpose, Big Impact, Harry works tirelessly to help organizations make a meaningful difference. Tune in for an inspiring conversation about overcoming adversity, finding purpose, and creating lasting impact.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:22):
Welcome to be a voice. I'm Brick Carpenter. This is
Usula Media. Thanks for joining me today as we continue
on this season with our episodes with people who have
switched gears. I am really stoked to be sitting here
today with a person who has experience in switching gears
and also a person who is really good at it

(00:42):
because he embraces it. So today I'm sitting here with
Harry Conan right command, right, got Conand And you know
the reason I knew that, I mean for knowing you
all this time.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
It's just the way I spell. That's a n E.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
That's Anne, You're you are in the minority. Nobody gets out.
They call you Khanane, don't date Khunane Kunani. I get
it all, but which is so weird.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
Yeah, I mean when when you look at it phonetically,
you break it apart. And I tried really hard to
be good about I was an English major too, so
that happens. So yeah, if I get if I like
mess up a name, I feel like I did something wrong,
like I did this service. So but yeah, comand but Harry,
thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
For being here today.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
Thanks for having me excited. Yeah, me too, me too.
I mean I've followed you for a while. You and
I both have something in common. We were in a
docu series last summer, last summer, last summer that it
was a long time ago.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
It feels longer than last summer, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:37):
Absolutely absolutely, And that was by Brayburn, which is pharmaceutical
and it was a reclaim, reframe, changing the narrative really
around the stigma of addiction and recovery. And that's something
that you know a lot about. It's another common ground
that we have.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
So you know, I know that. But who are you?
Who is Harry canand Harry Can? Who am I?

Speaker 3 (02:02):
It's a it's a hard that's probably the hardest question. Yeah,
you can ask anybody, right, you know, like where do
we start with that?

Speaker 2 (02:09):
I where do you want to start unraveling something like that? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (02:12):
Right, So it's funny and I think about it from
the lens of you know, the recovery world, right, Like
so often we you know, we identify with this label
of you know, I'm a person in long term term recovery,
and which is ramatic and it's a piece of it, right,
and it's an important piece of it.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
But who am I? Right? Like I'm a you know,
I'm a father.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
I've got four kids, got four kids, four kids, yes,
what are the ages? So I have a thirteen year
old daughter, a five year old son, a three year
old daughter, and a almost five month old daughter.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
Just recently, just for you were on the cusp, right,
that's right. We were at a summit together.

Speaker 3 (02:47):
Yeah, and you were you're expecting any day we ended
up you know, the doctors. I think we're trying to
get my wife's hopes up. It ended up being a
week after that.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
But I actually followed you on social media event on
your stories and stuff. You were doing things to try
to exercise her, to get the baby going and following
whatever it was.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah, my wife was out of patience, her and the
other ones that were on the trampoline and anything they could,
but the baby came when when she wanted to come.
But yeah, so you know, four kids, that's great, it's amazing, right,
but it's you know so again that that who are
you questioned for me?

Speaker 2 (03:21):
It's like I'm in recovery. I'm a how many year
I'm a son?

Speaker 3 (03:25):
Twelve years? Twelve years, yeah, October was twelve years.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
That's amazing.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
And you have a thirteen year old daughter, So you
had her while you were in your active addiction. Yeah,
which is interesting. Yeah, to see that change in that
was that maybe like a thegnite, you know, what ignited
you to go into recovery.

Speaker 3 (03:44):
It was, it was an important part of it, Okay, Right,
So I went to treatment four days after my daughter
turned one. It was October thirtieth, twenty twelve. And you know,
it's funny, I was, you know, I was young. I
was twenty two at the time. And for me, you know,
like I knew once my drug use was you know,
like I knew I had a problem for years. I

(04:06):
knew well before I was twenty two that I had
a problem, and I had this feeling that like, you know,
I just believed I internalized the stigma on myself hard, right, So,
like I knew I had a problem, but I didn't
know there was a solution out there. I didn't know
people recovered. I couldn't identify anybody in my network that

(04:27):
was living a life in recovery. I didn't even know
what that meant, right, So I didn't know that, you know,
I could ask for help. I didn't know that there
were you know, any I didn't know there was anything
or anyone out there for me. I just thought I
was an awful person, and I thought I was going
to die this way. But when I found out I
was twenty at the time, when I found out that
I was going to become a dad, and I'm completely

(04:49):
hooked on opioids. My life is in complete shambles. I
dropped out of school, I'm working in a warehouse, like
things are not not going well.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
How long were you in your active addiction.

Speaker 3 (05:00):
From really from probably about fourteen fifteen to that day,
and you know, when I was twenty two years old,
so you know, it had it had been a little
bit of a run. And you know, for me around eighteen,
so like eighteen to twenty two, it just really took
off and was a disaster.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Especially those those those years where you're forming. Yeah, you know,
those years are supposed to be those forming years, and
you know those years are supposed to be growing in
different ways, and yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
I was not. I was not growing in many ways.

Speaker 3 (05:34):
Right. My life honestly, my life was shrinking, right, Like
I grew up to two incredible parents. I'm the middle
of you know other things, right, I'm massan I'm a brother.
I've got two brothers. I'm right in the middle, middle
child syndrome.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
Where are you from? Originally I'm from Glenside.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
Oh okay, so you're local. Yeah, Glenside boy, local, the
poor side.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:53):
We moved from Glenside to Jenkintown when I was growing up,
and like that was in big move. No, but it's
different if you're is it. It's to me, I think
of it the same thing because they're there to each other. Yeah,
we moved a mile, but it was like, you know,
we completely transformed, you know, who we were and anyway nice,
but you know, so like at that time, you know,
I grew up this way and I had, you know,

(06:16):
great hopes, and my parents put me in good schools,
and you know, I had all the potential in the world,
you know. So for me, that time from eighteen to
twenty two is really just my world was caving in, right, So,
like my outlook was shrinking, the possibilities were shrinking, and
the reality of where I was headed was getting so
so narrow. But I remember when my when I found out,

(06:37):
you know, my girlfriend at the time was pregnant. I'm
twenty years old, I'm sitting in this apartment in Ben Salem,
and you know, I'm just like overwhelmed with hope, right,
like this is it. I had been trying to stop
using for a while. At that point. I didn't tell
anybody I was trying to stop, because you know, I figured, what's.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
The use, same old story.

Speaker 3 (06:57):
Yeah, you know, but but I was trying, and I
thought that that was going to be it, right, And
I was convinced that that that was going to be it.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
And I found out.

Speaker 3 (07:07):
In a very hard way that that was not it.
You know, So that that first year of my daughter's
life was just such a dark time because every day
was the reminder that, you know, it wasn't it. I
didn't stop, I didn't change. I didn't you know, I
didn't make a transition in my life. I had a kid, right,

(07:28):
but I wasn't becoming the dad that I wanted to
be or thought I should be or knew. Actually at
the time, I wouldn't say I knew I could be,
especially because I didn't think I could.

Speaker 2 (07:37):
I didn't know anything. Really, Yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (07:40):
Knew I looked up to my dad and I wanted
to be like him, and I was so you know,
I am you know, so fortunate to have him in
my life. But I just knew at that time I
was incapable of living up to the standard that I
had for myself.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
It was impossible.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
That's I like that the you know, to hear that,
you know, I don't know if people have those standards
sometimes or if they do, I don't know if they
place those goals upon themselves to you know, to reach
those standards.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
And I think that's important. Yeah, And I think that's.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
Maybe why as a person in recovery, even for myself,
you know, affirmations are standards to me, you know, And
I found that out. But you know, you said, it's funny,
you said, you know, you didn't know you could recover. Yeah,
like me, I thought it was normal to get fucked up.
So I thought it was normal that I should be
like popping pills, drinking beer, partying until four in the morning,
getting up, going to work, you know, and being as

(08:35):
functional as I can. I thought that's what everybody did.
And the people that weren't doing and I thought what
was wrong with them? Yeah, So to hear you say that,
thank you, I feel better here just affirm that. Okay,
I wasn't you know alone. So and that's common I
think for a lot of people to think that.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yeah, I've got vivid memories of that, like especially when
I first started out, like those thoughts of like why
isn't everybody doing this? Because it works right, Like it
cut off every feeling that I want cut off, and
like it felt like this is this is it right?
Like this is what I've been missing, you know, from
zero to fourteen, Like why why wasn't I doing this

(09:08):
the whole time? And then it, you know, it turned
on me. But no, I thought, like I thought that
was you know, that was what I needed to just
get by.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
I also, you know, I always find it really interesting
and I real admirable and I respect to respect somebody
like crazy like yourself, who at the age of twenty
two you were able to do something like that, because
my active addiction started at the age of probably like
sixteen seventeen, that cusp, and it didn't end until thirty

(09:40):
years later. Okay, so I missed more than just the
growing years, I missed all my life. Yeah, So like
I look at somebody like it and like, I actually
like find this really strong like connection then, because I
want to learn from something like that because.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
They have that ability to do what I couldn't.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
Even though I was successful in my career and in
my personal and stuff like that, you know, I wasn't
successful in the growing or the stability part.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah. So you know, good, congratulations all that. Thank you.

Speaker 3 (10:12):
Yeah, I meant for me I had, you know, by
twenty two, I wasn't.

Speaker 2 (10:16):
I wasn't successful anywhere.

Speaker 3 (10:18):
Like there was there was not an area of my
life that you could point to that was like, oh,
it's kind of okay, Like I burn it. I burned
it to the ground. And I think, you know, back
to my daughter, you know the role, and she played
a lot of roles, right, but like one of the
roles that I think is critical for that was she
made me acutely aware of the pain, right and acutely

(10:42):
aware of that I should be doing something different than
what I'm doing right.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
So, like there was.

Speaker 3 (10:50):
She was this you know, this kind of force in
my life at the time that was just like this
physical visual constant.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
Remind of.

Speaker 3 (11:02):
You know, how far ahead straight from who I thought
I was or who I thought I could be.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
Should be interesting when we talk about people, you know,
we talk about ourselves and other people in active addiction.
It's so funny because people say, oh, so you know,
you went to treatment, you get into a rehab which
I don't know what you know, when you get rehabbed,
you know, you know which they us called rehabilitation, you know,
but you went to rehab and you know, now you're
back to yourself. And I don't think people realize that

(11:30):
we don't even know who ourselves were during that active addiction,
especially at that age, so you know, the opportunity to
do that, I mean that, you know, people talk about
an AHA moment, I don't think there's really just one
in people's lives.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
It's a series of Yeah, you know.

Speaker 3 (11:42):
That's been the constant for me, like since since that day,
you know, in twenty twelve that like I started a
process of changing. Like it's just been a constant, right,
And there's more of these aha moments as I go.
But yeah, I had a really pessimistic outlook on what
have was or what you know, what even recovery could be.

(12:04):
Like I went in just with the hope of, like,
if I can get off these opioids, like just that.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
You know, I'll be fine.

Speaker 3 (12:10):
But I remember somebody saying too, like you know, you
can get your life back.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
It's like I don't want that.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
I don't there's sucked, like there's there's like take it right,
you know. So to have the opportunity to like you know,
start from scratch and rebuild a life and you know, again,
like I to be able to do that at twenty
two is like a it's a miracle, like it's crazy sick.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, it is, it really is.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
And so you know, and you I mean, recovery comes
in different levels, you know, and people's recovery is all different.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
My recovery, your recover, everybody's is different. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Some people are totally abstinence. Some people are you know,
they are not. Some people are medically treated. Whatever you are,
have been abstinate, Yeah, sober the whole time.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
You know.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
I don't like to work clean. I'm against that word. Okay,
that's me, I really am. Sibber is cool, you know,
because I always think about it like I wasn't dirty,
wasn't you know? And but you know, and that's that's
another admirable thing. I think people need to realize that
there is a difference. And I think that you know,
you know, that swayed me sometimes because I didn't go
through treatment. I tried to go through the rooms. Okay, yeah,

(13:18):
and they were brutal. They were really brutal, you know.
So you know, but so you have you had that,
So that's that's part of who you are, which that
led to a big piece of who you are now,
the addiction and the recovery and everything.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yeah. So twenty two, where'd you go to treatment? So?

Speaker 3 (13:40):
I went to Karen Treatment Centers out in Wernersville, Pennsylvania.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
Karen's pretty good. They were great, they were great. How
long did you go there for? So I went.

Speaker 3 (13:49):
I thought I was signing up for the you know,
typical rehab thirty days. When I got there, you know,
I learned about the continuum of care and after care
and all these other things. So, you know, I was
in treatment there for thirty days and then I went
to a really structured sober living for another ninety so
I was I was away out of my environment, kind

(14:10):
of shipped off for four months, which I.

Speaker 1 (14:13):
Always say is sometimes for some people to beare minimum.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah, you know, some people don't need that.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
Some people I think need that or more, you know,
And I think that's really the aftercare is so important.
So it's coolly that that Karen has a good after care.
There's a lot of them out there that do not.
You know, I'm not here to bash anybody, but you know,
Karen does have a good after care, but not just that. Then,
you know, you you got out, like after you were
done with your you know, what did you want to
do when you grew up?

Speaker 2 (14:39):
At that point? Did you know? I had no idea?

Speaker 3 (14:43):
You know, when I got out, I was you know,
I was terrified. I was terrified of going back. You know,
I was terrified of what would happen if I, you know, started.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
Using when you got out, were you're going home?

Speaker 3 (14:56):
I went back home? So okay, So in that, you
know that year before, for you know, when my daughter
was born, I ended up. I moved back into my
parents again. My life is crumbling.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
You're in Ben Salem. Most people end up in Ben
sale I don't understand that. How does Ben Salem be
that area?

Speaker 2 (15:10):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (15:11):
But yeah, I spent you know a little bit of
time in an apartment off street road, and you know,
but anyways, I always have like banners out some days
say just come here and just check it out. It's
not quite Northeast Philly anymore, you're you know, but it's close,
you know. So I'd moved back into my parents house before.
So when I got you know, finished with treatment, I

(15:33):
was going back to my parents' house. But you know,
during the time when I was away, my my relationship
with my daughter's mother blew up, right, So I was
going back, and you know, she had been living there too,
she wasn't anymore. I was going back to you know,
co parenting my daughter, and I was going back to
this you know, really entry level kind of like just

(15:55):
customer service call center job, and you know, one of
the things that I recognized. So I went away, and
that whole time, you know, they took my cell phone away, right,
So like the whole time, I'm like, oh man, everybody's
probably calling me and this and that. And I remember,
right before I was getting out of the halfway house,

(16:15):
they had let me get like a flip phone. But
I turned my my phone back on and wanted to see,
like how much had everybody missed me?

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Right?

Speaker 3 (16:23):
And I had legitimately like three three people reached out
in four months, you know, and it was a dealer.
It was one you know, this girl saying like, hey, yo,
harr are you alive? And it was my supervisor from work,
who had, you know, knew what was going on, and
just said, hope you're okay, right, And I remember, like
I looked through my text messages to her and it

(16:45):
was like every day just the dishonesty around, like oh,
I'm running late, I'm this, I'm that right. Like so
I just wanted to try to get back in and
just like show up right. And I didn't know where
that was going to go, right, but I was like,
I have a job. I'm going to go back to
this job. You know, I'm going to do everything that
I can to to be different, right, to just be

(17:05):
an honest employee. But you know, again, it was like
a really low paying kind of just basic, basic job.
But like I I took a lot of pride in it,
you know, and I dove into it, and you know, eventually,
I you know, build up the self esteem to kind
of like ask and position myself for more. And but
it's funny like the first I think probably two years

(17:28):
after I got out, like I was afraid. I didn't
ask for a review or a raise or like I
was I was just humble.

Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah, like I was.

Speaker 3 (17:34):
I was humbled heavily, right, and I just wanted to
bild yeah, you know, and I just you know, but
I was so fortunate, right I went back, I moved
in with my parents. I was able to get my
own place probably like nine months after that, but you know,
I moved back in with them, and you know, my
mom's like secretly following me to see if I'm going
to meetings or what I'm doing at night, and you know,

(17:55):
we had a rebuild trust. Yeah she was, you know,
there was there was no trust when I got home, rightfully.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
So, And I'm glad you said that because I do
talk about this with you know, other guests, and you know,
just so happened to most of my guests this season
or in regovery. So we talk about it. That's what
we know best and what we can bring the word out.
But people forget about the families. They forget what the
families go through. They think the families are just going
about their life and going to the holidays and they're
going to parties and to dinner every night. They forget

(18:25):
that parents are out there on the streets looking they're
out there spying on their kids and see if their
kids are walking through the street and narrow or if
they're alive or whatever the case may be, And it
takes a toll on a parent, takes a toll on anybody, you.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
Know, So your mom was doing that? Yeah, I mean
I you know, how'd you know that? No? Not not
until years later? Right?

Speaker 3 (18:45):
But what I did know was like I shattered all
of the trust and like my word, when I got
home andant nothing right, So like I knew that I
had been for four months really trying to like actively
do this thing and figure out like what does recovery
look like for me? And how do I how do
I get it? How do I hold onto it for

(19:05):
dear life?

Speaker 2 (19:06):
Right?

Speaker 3 (19:06):
But like she hadn't seen me, right, Like I came
home once on a home pass for Christmas, you know,
And what happened before I left was like the day
I went to treatment was the day they confronted me
with a bunch of bank statements showing that I had
robbed them, right, Like I was stealing from my parents,

(19:27):
So like there was no trust, and you know, all
I knew was, you know, like I know what I'm doing,
and I believed enough that if I just keep trying
to do the you know, the right thing and be honest.
Then eventually, like it'll come back. I didn't think it
would come back as well as it has. I didn't

(19:48):
think we'd ever get to where we are today twelve
years later. But it was it was a slow it
was a slow grind.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
And that's going we want to talk about those twelve years. Yeah,
But I want to bring it back to something you
said then I believe really strongly about and I tell
people that when I do write my posts on social media,
I always end it with that. But you use two words,
and it's two words that I don't think people that
may not be in recovery they may take for granted,
but it's show up. And it's so difficult when you're

(20:19):
in your active addiction and you're using, and you're running
and whatever you're doing to show up to be present
that when you do go into you know, recovery and
you are sober and you're seeing things from a different perspective,
showing up means all the world to us because we've
never did that before. So and I'm glad you said that,

(20:41):
and people do say it, and I don't think people
realize how important is to show up and be present.

Speaker 3 (20:46):
It's huge, I mean, and also like it's for a while,
it's all you can offer, right, Like all I had
to give was like the show up.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
I can show up.

Speaker 3 (20:54):
I could be here for you, right, And if I
say I'm going to be here, I can actually do
it before because like you know, when I was using,
I couldn't show up for anybody.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
And that's funny because that becomes your word. Then you said,
you know, your word was destroyed. But when we get out,
I always tell people all I had left was my
word and that was through the actions, and that's showing up.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
So that's cool. So you know, let's fast forward.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
So you know you were in your you know, the
family that that's a spiral, that's an episode in itself,
I'm sure for us. But when we talk about you turned,
what I always believe when I am a huge firm belier,
that turning your pain into some type of purpose, you know,
and making sure that you know, you become that voice.

(21:37):
We were also of the mind frame that we should
be recovering anonymously, yes, and that we shouldn't let people
know and especially you know, it's going to be embarrassing
our families and then ourselves and it's just shame and
the guilt and all that. And that's what happened to me.
It almost killed me five times, you know, in overdoses,
you know, because I did it, you know quietly. Everybody

(21:59):
else knew, but I didn't tell anybody, so you know,
to recover out loud and you you sort of turned
that around, did that, didn't you?

Speaker 2 (22:05):
I did?

Speaker 3 (22:06):
It took a while, yeah, like I you know, for
probably the first it was five to six years in
into recovery.

Speaker 2 (22:14):
That you know.

Speaker 3 (22:16):
The way it happened for me, right was like, you know,
I was still at that job, you know, I had
moved up in that company and was you know for
five years. Yeah, so you know, and I was in
a much you know, much higher role and had a
lot of opportunity to grow there.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
And it was great. I was having it. You know,
I was off to a really positive career.

Speaker 3 (22:35):
But I didn't talk about you know, like nobody I
worked with, I didn't talk about it. You know, being
in recovery was not something stigma like I felt it
in recovery five years in, like I knew the way
I was living.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
And I felt really good about it.

Speaker 3 (22:48):
And I was afraid that if I told you I
was in recovery, that I would, you know, like, what
does that mean? But you know, part of my story was,
you know, as I was getting into recover twenty twelve,
my mom was running for you know, first local office,
so she was getting into politics and then.

Speaker 1 (23:07):
Been in politics for thirteen years now. Yeah, yeah, she's
gone a long way.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
In thirteen dovels, she's come a long way.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
So so the ambition and the drive doesn't fall far
from the No, she there with you. That's very cool.
We'll talk about that. Yeah, people, that what we're talking
about ahead.

Speaker 3 (23:22):
But so in twenty eighteen, I'm you know, about six
years in. She is at the time making a run
for Congress for the first time ever, and we're approached
by a literary agent who says, hey, you know, would
you guys be interested in telling your story. They knew,
you know, from family connections about you know, what I
had gone through and what we had gone through as
a family, and uh, you know I remember this. This

(23:46):
agent drove to he met us at my parents' house
in Jenkintown, and you know, we sat outside and talked
about it for a little bit. My Mom and I
looked at each other really with the hope of like,
look like, if you know, if we can just help,
Like if one person can identify with this. I thought about,
you know, what I mentioned earlier when I was struggling,

(24:07):
I couldn't identify anybody in recovery, right, So that like
that concept of you know, do do I perpetuate that
for the next guy, or do I try to recover
out loud and actually like hopefully you know, not that
my way is the right way, but just that I
am one person of many that is vocal about it.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
So we decided to write it.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
Also, people that look like us, whatever the hell that means,
aren't supposed to be an addiction. Yeah, we're not supposed
to be that jword or you know, shooting up and
stuff like that. That's not who we are supposed to
be by dictated by who I don't know. But to
be able to open your mouth about it, it gives
that hope and everything like that. And it's interesting because
your mother was making that run for Congress and you
were approached in twenty twelve or twenty eighteen about right,

(24:48):
and that was the cuss that was like the verge
of the opioid crisis, overdose epidemic, coming into the scene
to be a voice about it. Yeah, and you know,
to do that, that's also something that's really iffy, that
could really raise somebody to the next level or push
them back far.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
And yeah, that takes balls.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
Well, I think for me, I just went on faith
with it, right, like I thought about you know, by
that point, you know, again, I feel like I caught
this recovery thing, you know, like none of it is
my doing, right, Like I had access to great care.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
I had all of the right.

Speaker 3 (25:28):
Stuff lined up that I know most people don't have,
but I had like all of these dominoes that were
lined up.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
But I also had been in recovery for six years.

Speaker 3 (25:35):
And like you know, from twenty twelve to twenty eighteen,
you know, the shift in the drug supply de fentanyl
to like what was happening out there and the friends
that you know, I was losing, It was like, you know,
if this is something that I can do, like just
some like count me in, right, So because I've you know,

(25:55):
I felt like by almost pure circumstance of like because
it was me and twenty two well of like you know,
it was a different landscape then, and it's a totally
different landscape now. I just felt like I've got to
do something. Yeah, I've got to do something. And you
did and I did and you did. That's amazing. And
so the book was the name of the book.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
The book.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
So we wrote two books. One is a you know,
sort of adult memoir called Under Our.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
Roof, Under Our Roof Inspite both you and your mother. Yeah,
and your mother is what's congresswoman?

Speaker 3 (26:26):
Yeah, congresswoman Pennsylvania's fourth district, so she's just outside of
Philadelphia here.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
Very cool.

Speaker 3 (26:32):
So she ended up you know, when we started, she
wasn't yet elected, but you know, she was in the process.
She was elected in twenty eighteen for the first time.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
That's a bold move on your mother's part too, to
be able to put a book out about that, especially
since it's so taboo and stigma. Yeah, to put a
book out saying that this is my experience, what I did.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
And but then again, that also.

Speaker 1 (26:53):
Could be probably one of the smartest moves because it
appeals to all the people that are afraid to say
me too, or to say.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
It happened to me yeah, or in my family. So
that's sick. I love that. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
I will be honestly, I'm not read them, but I'm
going to. So the first one is called under.

Speaker 3 (27:08):
Our Roof, Under Our Roof, and yeah, I'll quick caveast
please just to say I'm super proud of her because again,
like it's a risky could it could have been?

Speaker 2 (27:18):
It ended up like the feedback we got. You know,
she'll get.

Speaker 3 (27:24):
Anyone in the political arena in twenty twenty five, You're
gonna get criticized by half of the people out there
for anything. But like, that is one thing that we
did that, like even on social media, which is fueled
with you know, some really nasty stuff.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
Like the comments we got.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
Even on there were overwhelmingly positive and not positive that
we did it, but like the amount of people that
were then comfortable getting vulnerable with us about what they
were going through, whether it was.

Speaker 2 (27:52):
Addiction or not. You know, this is an amazing the
door it opens.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
I think, you know, the minute I became vulnerable on
social media and I had that follow in the four
three thousand and people are listening. It's interesting because the
minute that I started sharing saying this happened to me.
It may not have been somebody who was in addiction.
It could have been a sexual abuse, it could have
been domestic violence, it could have been losing somebody to suicide.
But you open that door for others to talk about

(28:17):
their pain, to release it because you released your pain.
So under our roof what's the second book?

Speaker 3 (28:23):
So the second book, which is to me something that
you know again, probably it's sold much fewer copies, but
it's different. It's a children's book, and it is you know.
So it's an illustrated children's book called We're Always Loved,
and it was You're Always Loved, Yeah, And what it
is really is, you know, it doesn't talk about, you know,
any of the language of you know, addiction or recovery.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
But what it talks about.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
Is feelings, right, and it's aimed at children who are
growing up around someone who's struggling with addiction.

Speaker 2 (28:56):
Right. So, Like when I thought back.

Speaker 3 (28:58):
My daughter was one, know, and my experience as a
father when I was an active addiction was like I
loved her to death and I could not show it, right,
And I think there are so many people that have
grown up in that environment. If you're a kid, you're
you know, three, four, five, six, seven, eight years old.

(29:19):
The world revolves around you, like you feel like it's
your fault, so you know, selfishly for you know, for
my kids. But at the same time, like right when
that was happening, one of my closest friends, Jonathan, passed
away and he had a son who's the same age
as my daughter, and I just thought about it's like man,
like you know, like if only you know, like he knew,

(29:42):
like and I hope that they do, right, but like
how much his dad loved him despite you know, what happened.

Speaker 1 (29:49):
I think it's really hard, you know, it's especially for children,
and it's really hard for anybody I feel that didn't
really go through an addiction to understand how difficult is
to express or show our love for other people when
it's hard to show we don't even love ourselves sometimes,
so we we do love the person, but showing it
or expressing it, or actually feeling it in a non

(30:13):
tangible yet tangible sort of way, if that makes sense,
is very difficult. And I don't think people get that,
and you know, and that's what drugs will do. They
will numb that feeling of the love too, so and
so that's important. So it's a children's book what's gone
called you are not you are always? You are always loved?

(30:33):
And where can somebody to get these books?

Speaker 2 (30:35):
Anywhere books are sold. So you've got Amazon, Barnes, and
Noble anywhere.

Speaker 3 (30:39):
Yeah, very cool. Local bookstore.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
Always go to your local. That's always shop local, Yes,
always shop local.

Speaker 1 (30:46):
So we're local other than because Barnes is not a local,
but like one of the ones in Philly and the
a Philly here that you know.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
Any of the ones in Philly really yeah, right on.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yeah, you might have to ask.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
It's it's been out a couple of years, so you might,
you know, you must ask, but yeah, they can still
get it.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
It'll have it on the shelf. Very cool. So you
and your mom wrote both of these books together.

Speaker 3 (31:04):
Yeah, we wrote the books and they're you know, so
the memoir in particular is what we did to try
to maintain the integrity of the you know, of our
truth of what we had experienced, was we created an
outline and say, go right about these experiences right, so
you know, it wasn't trying to make a story fit.

(31:25):
It was you know, hey, remember this event was maybe
a little chaotic, like, mom, what did you experience? And
then I'll write, you know what was going on in
my side, so you see the you know, she knew
things were going wrong and you know, things were off,
but she didn't know what was really happening. And so
you know, through that our stories end up coming together later, right,

(31:46):
But it's you know, it's like what is a mom
going through? What am I going through? Trying to cover
it up and it's you know it it exposes a
lot of those misconceptions and deceptions that we were trying
to navigate together.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
That's amazing. I I love to hear that because I like.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
You know, there was a documentary done on myself really unknown,
and they spoke to my mother and they asked her
about you know, and she she stated, very well, I
was very good at disassociating from my family, Like I ran,
I ran to different states. I ran because I didn't
want to involve them, and it sucks because I also

(32:26):
feel like I deprived myself of my life with them,
you know. So that that's so cool to hear this stuff.

Speaker 3 (32:32):
But I think that part is fascinating, right, like that,
you know, and I think of that as like a
way of you know, if you're struggling, like if you're
out there, not wanting to involve them, like comes from
a place of love, even though you know it's probably
the last thing that it feels like on your mom.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, And it's funny because and that's where it comes from,
because you want to protect them. Yeah, you don't want
them to be a part of it, and you don't want,
you know, part of your chaos, a part of that
turmoil that you're bringing into the lives.

Speaker 2 (32:59):
And I really didn't. So it was really much better.

Speaker 1 (33:01):
And I think, you know, for myself it worked out
like that.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
I don't know how I would have now. My parents
were pretty strict, so I'm not sure that would have
worked out. That's probably why I wrote me both. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
So you you were at this job, but you left
that job. You didn't stay at this job. You you
took it and you went you went back to give
back and see it and explain that to me.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:27):
So in the process of you know, writing the book
and processing the fact that you know, I'm going to
now put this out there and we're going to do
a media tour and you know, I'm going to get
really public about it.

Speaker 2 (33:37):
You did a media tour, book signing all this stuff.

Speaker 3 (33:39):
Yeah, it was during COVID, so it was you know,
like the it was a COVID book tour. We did
a lot of virtual stuff, which is you know, it
was fine. You know, we did what we could. But
you know, I knew it was going to go out
in a really public way, and you know, just through
the process of writing the book and kind of living
through it, I came to realize, like, you know, what
I was doing, I just wasn't passionate about again, I

(34:01):
was I was off when a good career professionally, but
it didn't fire me up, you know. So I ended
up took kind of a leap of faith before the
book ended up coming out. I and not totally recklessly right, like,
I was applying for other jobs kind of like in
the treatment world or trying to trying to come over
to behavioral health. I didn't even know what was out

(34:23):
there at the time. I didn't know if this is
like a profession. I had experience in treatment once, but
that was about it, right. But I ended up walking
away from that job, you know, without anything fully lined up,
and was fortunate a few you know, a few weeks
later I found a job with Karen Treatment Centers, where
I had gone through as a patient, and and that

(34:45):
was for me kind of the first I kind of
dipping my toes into this work and understanding you know,
this this field. So I was hired into an outreach roll. Right,
So I had you know, I had a and had
a resume that had sales and marketing and branding experience,
and I, you know, found somebody from Karen on LinkedIn

(35:08):
and just like, hey, can we get coffee?

Speaker 2 (35:10):
I brought my resume.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
I was like, look, I don't know anything about this
this field. I don't know what I can do for
you guys, but I you know, I've got to do
something that I'm passionate about. And you know, started that conversation,
wound up getting a job over in New Jersey, you know,
doing outreach.

Speaker 1 (35:29):
And I could picture that with the personality starting an outreach.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
Yeah, especially just you know, the move of just reaching
out to them on LinkedIn like let's got coffee? Yeah,
Like that's a move. Yeah, that's you know, that's a move.

Speaker 3 (35:42):
That's yeah, yeah, you know, I mean it's I never
thought of it that way, but it is, right, like,
that's you know, that's what it is. And so for me,
it was you know, it was kind of this first
time in my life that you know, regardless of the role.
What was amazing about it was in terms of recovering
out loud, Like everywhere I went, whether it was in

(36:03):
you know, my local community, my recovery community, my family,
or my work, I could be authentically me, right, I
didn't have to hide this piece of who I am,
and that, you know, since then has really kind of
opened the doors to what I do today and in
the path that I've been on since then. But it's
really been to just lean in. And you know, I

(36:24):
don't have the degrees. I'm not you know, clinical, I'm
not medical, you know, but I.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
Want to bring values.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
Yeah, It's like I've got that, you know, and I
want to bring value to you know, to people who
are out there that are still struggling either using or
struggling in recovery, right, you know, like people that need
need some help. So like, whatever I can do for me, like,
that's what fuels me.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
So you started this job and an outreach starts outreach, Yeah,
twenty twenty nineteen summer at twenty nineteen, and you know, so.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
I was I did that, you know, talking to transitions.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
Right, So it's a big switching of gears. July twenty nineteen.
You know, I sold my house in Windcoat. I was
in Windcoat at the time. I moved over to New Jersey.
So your own home, yeah, yes, I was living now
you're a homeowner, just going Homer.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:18):
I mean my you know, my life in those five years,
in all of the normal kind of like checkbox stuff,
it had gone really well. I you know, I met
my wife, Juliette. You know, we got married, we bought
a home where you know, at that point maybe you know,
we were expecting our first together, you know. Soid summer
twenty nineteen, I pick up, I moved to New Jersey.

(37:41):
I start this new job, and you know, I'm still
in the process. We're writing the book. It ended up
coming out in twenty twenty, you know, but we're doing
all of this, and you know, I had the opportunity
to grow from there, right So I took that job
by Ryan with it, I was able to you know,
be successful Karen. You know, there was an opening within

(38:04):
Karen about eighteen months later to do really more kind
of fundraising work and some policy work in Washington, d C.
So I went down there and ended up living. You know, now,
eight years in recovery, I'm split in time. I've got
my wife and kids in Jersey. I'm sleeping on my
mom's couch. Just try to, like, you know, do this
thing and re establish myself in a new job.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
Again.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
Well here's and here here's this twenty two year old
kid who was afraid to ask for I'm raised in
his first job in two years, eighteen months into this
job at Karen which everybody needs to know.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
It's with a C. Karen.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
It's not a kN Karen Foundation. Guess right, Karen Foundation.
I just call Karen. So that's why. Yeah, but you
know you did this and not just that you know
you made that comment, like you know, you didn't finish college,
which sometimes I think some of the smartest people don't
finish college.

Speaker 2 (38:56):
It depends on what you know you're looking for.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
Now you're working and you're in Washington, DC working with policy,
one of the most dreaded things that people ever want
to deal with. I mean myself, that's compliance and I
love compliance, but that's really compliance.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
How the heck did that happen?

Speaker 3 (39:13):
So it was really just kind of following, you know,
it wasn't on the path, right, Like, if I was
looking at where I was headed, it wasn't it wasn't that.
But this opportunity came up and it wasn't didn't feel
like a perfect fit because again, I live in New Jersey.
I've got to be down there, you know. I took
it with, you know, the hope that like, I'm going
to learn a lot doing this and it's going to

(39:36):
push me out of my comfort zone. I can do
this outreach thing that's going well. But at that point
it was kind of on autopilot, and I wanted to
continue to push and grow and again, like I got
into this to try to make an impact, and so
when I thought about policy and kind of like being
in DC, it was like, all right, well, you know,
in outreach, I'm kind of making impact on one person

(39:59):
at a time. It's like, all right, what can we
do to push this. My mom's now also in Congress.
I'm seeing the you know, the other side from conversations
with her of like, all right, how is some of
this working and what's happening and recognizing that like there's
not enough people with lived experience at the table most
of the time, you know, and you know, so it's like,

(40:20):
how can I be useful? What can you know? What
can I bring to this? And so I went down
there and for two years, you know, I spent three
nights a week in DC and the other four nights
at home, and it was crueling, it was brutal. I had,
you know, two kids in those two years, so my
wife is crazy the kids, you know, just an.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
Absolute hero with two under two, you know, at.

Speaker 3 (40:41):
Home and allowing me to just kind of follow the
stream of you know, how can I do more, learn
more and try to help more?

Speaker 2 (40:49):
You know.

Speaker 3 (40:49):
So I did that for a couple of years with Karen,
and I did I got exposed to I'll say, both
from that but also from when the book came out.
You know, what ended up happened was something that I
knew deep down, but like I was able to. I
was exposed on a much deeper level to the privilege
that I had as somebody who used drugs right like

(41:11):
I got. I got through my active addiction with no
criminal record. I used right around here, I used all
over this city and you know, like what I say
was my experience with the cops was like I was
treated unfairly fair every time I got stopped. They'd look
at my idea and they'd say, get out of here,
just go home.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
No, it wasn't even that at the time.

Speaker 3 (41:33):
My mom wasn't in and it was it was just
I lived in a nice, you know, neighborhood in Montgomery
County suburbs. They would just say, just get out of
the city. If I see again to day I lock yet,
but every time I was just let go. Wow, and
good for you. Yeahs, I had that experience. Well, but
on top of that, it was like, you know, and
then when I when I needed treatment, you know, like

(41:55):
I had a bed available that day, I had, you know,
the ability to go to treatment and long term, I
had all of these things that so many people don't have.
And then I get into recovery and I don't have
the record, right, so it's easier to get you know,
keep a job, maintain a job, get housing, all of
these things. So when we did you know the book
and I look at you know, policy, it's like there's

(42:16):
so many glaring disparities for people that use drugs that.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
Don't have it like I had it.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
People who use drugs are treated as criminals. They are,
and that's basically what it is you you there are
no rights for some reason. Yeah, And I'm not quite
sure where that goes, because you know, it has now
been classified as a disease by you know, the CDC.

Speaker 2 (42:37):
If they say it, who are we going to argue
with them? You know?

Speaker 1 (42:39):
I mean that that's what's going on. And I think
people don't realize that that there's so much involved with that.
So to be able to write policy and in a
stick of well number one, would you think that you
would ever got into writing policy if it wasn't for
your mother being in Congress? Do that have an interest
to you or you just had an interest in learning that,
because that's a hell thing to learn.

Speaker 3 (43:01):
So yeah, and I'm not typically writing it. What I'm
you know, what I'm trying to do is really just
be a voice for it.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
Be a voice, you know, and that's writing, let's face it,
because what you do is you tell them. You sit
at a table, you sit with them, you sit in
front of them, you speak, and you tell them and
they write what you tell them because of that experience. Yeah,
so yeah, you're writing policy man. Well and so I
don't know, right, so like put that on your resume. Yeah,

(43:27):
so you know, did I think we would go this way?
Probably not right. But you know, also, like growing up.

Speaker 3 (43:33):
You know, my mom always had the dream of getting
into public service, right, so like you know, my my
you know, my dad's father was super active you know, locally,
didn't you know, but like was really into it growing up,
Like my parents loved it. And you know, before my
mom got into politics, my brother actually did, right, So,

(43:54):
like his first job out of college was, you know,
before my mom was anybody, he got an internship at
the White House under Obama. So and he wow, grew
through the ranks there and was there for six years.
So like my family was kind of like always surrounded
by it. So okay, you know, so it's probably coming
whether I knew it or not, but you know, it's

(44:14):
been something that can be incredibly frustrating. But like looking
at it and again, like what I found when I
got you know, into it was just there's so many
pieces of this that aren't typically represented, right, like the
people in Washington that have the money or the big
farmer companies. It's the you know, the places that can

(44:34):
afford afford a lobbyists, and like, you know, people who
use drugs are criminalized and they're not you know, typically
hiring big lobbying firms to speak on their behalf as
to like what's falling through the cracks and the policy
that we write.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
I just I was at dinner last night with my
friend Carlo Sefronsky. She's the executive director of the Pennsylvania
Harm Reduction Network. Yeah, and we were just talking exactly
about this. Yeah, and you know, and that that's important
and for people to know too, like, you know, if
you don't have the funds or the means to have
like a high powered lobbyist in your pocket or I
hate to say it like that, because it's not in
your pocket, in your corner.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
Sorry, you know, it may not happen.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
Yeah, you know, but you you started doing this, you're
with Karen, but then not just that you switch gears again.

Speaker 3 (45:19):
Yeah recently, yeah, so recently, just you know, really recently,
you know, over the past couple of years, I had
on the side been you know, doing more consulting work
around you know, communications consulting, you know, policy consulting, and
you know, so I started this company, Ghost Pepper a
couple of years ago just kind of like as you know,

(45:40):
a passion project. So side yeah, yeah, side gig passion project.
It was like it felt like, you know, again, I
was on you know, and I ended up. I got
another role at Karen, and I was moving up, career
was going well there, but this felt like more of like,
all right, this brings all of the different facets of
of me together in a way that feels more you know,

(46:03):
more authentic.

Speaker 2 (46:03):
Right. So I love that. You said passion projects. Yeah
that's awesome.

Speaker 3 (46:07):
Yeah, yeah, it sounds you know, it's communications guys.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
Now you said that, I.

Speaker 1 (46:11):
Was like, wait a segon, I'm like psychic things pay
like Philly Unknown as a passion project. So if I
get that, I love that. Take that back, I retract
sagig all right, Yeah it's a passion. But you don't
hear me retract shit too much. So we'll take that.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
Wre we go.

Speaker 3 (46:25):
But yeah, so you know, a couple you know, not
just a few weeks back, you know, about a month
ago really just you know, took the leap of faith
and said, hey, I'm going to go all in on this.
So I you know, I ended up. I resigned from Karen.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
How long ago? Just a month ago? Okay, So you
have a good job with Karen. Great, great job with Karen.
There you go. I love to hear that. Yeah, and
the people need great job with Karen. You're on the
fourth kid.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
You're waiting for this fourth kid to be born, and
all of a sudden, fourth kids born, and you're like, yeah,
thank you for everything. I'm going to take this leap
of faith. Yeah, that's an I use this word a
few times with this interview. That's ballsy man.

Speaker 3 (47:04):
Well, you know, like my if I look back at
my you know, like my, my, what has happened since
I got I have gotten into recovery right, Like it's
for me, like you know what I do for my
personal recovery, like all of it is constantly evolving, right,
And I just felt and I you know, if you

(47:25):
ask my wife, it was like, you know, it sounds
in an interview like it just happened. It was like no,
like this was, you know, years in the making and
really deliberate and intentional. Right, I've got you know, I've
got four kids and a wife.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
It has to be. It has to be.

Speaker 3 (47:40):
But no, it is right like I you know, I
had an incredible job at Karen and I and I
love Karen as an organization I still actually get to
do some work with them as a you know, through
my agency now, and you know, but for me, it
was just like this is it just felt like it
got to the point where it was like, this is
what I've got to do. And you know, I believe that,

(48:02):
you know, it's it is a risk, and I see
that and I see where it could go sideways. But
I also see that for me as a person, right,
Like what's been so cool about getting into recovery is
the ability to kind of like chart my own path,
right and to take a risk, and like that what
I have come to is if it doesn't work out, right,

(48:27):
like I can find another job, but I will at
least feel like I gave it a shot. And otherwise,
I you know, like for the last couple months before
I did make the move, like the itch was there
of like.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
If you don't do this, you're always going.

Speaker 3 (48:42):
To wonder what would have happened, you know, what would
have been if you just went all in and bet
on yourself.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
You know, I love this because you like myself. You know.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
We do public speaking, yeah, you know, engagements, and I
talk a lot about this in public speaking engagements when
I talk to people, and I tell them that, like,
I don't consider things in my life to be mistakes.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
Yeah, there are risk takes. Yeah I took a risk.
If it doesn't work out, then I know better next
time and I figure something else out.

Speaker 1 (49:09):
And I think that comes with the growth of personal growth,
the professional all round growth. And I'd love to hear
that too, because there's so many things that you're paralleling
that that make me know that, Like, I'm on that right,
So ghost Pepper, all right, So it's a consulting what
you're consulting with, policy you're consulting with.

Speaker 3 (49:25):
Yeah, so we do, you know, some policy consulting work.
But really what we do, you know, I look at
it as it's communications. It's a branding firm. It's like,
you know, what I found over the last twelve years
is there are incredible people doing incredible work for people
that are struggling or for people that are in recovery.

(49:46):
And so often it's like these places that are doing
this work are so caught up in the work that
their message isn't getting out, you know, they're not connecting
with the people that need it, you know. So really
what we do is try to help support through communication
through pr through some government affairs work, Like how do
we lift up the people that are doing good for
our community for people that are still struggling and get

(50:10):
that out there, right, Like, you know, my hope is
you know, and this is like you know, cheesy or whatever,
but like really, like what what lights me up is,
you know, the ability to just change the narrative, right,
like if we can change the way we talk about addiction,
or if we can change the way we talk about

(50:30):
you know, the pathways of how people can get better
on what those access points are, and you know, change
just you know, like through that we can shift any policy.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
Right.

Speaker 3 (50:40):
But like it comes back to you have to bring
the humanity into it, right, Like you have to tell stories.
You have to lift these stories up because otherwise it's
numbers and statistics and it's you know, a population of
people who are criminalized.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
Yep, you know.

Speaker 3 (50:56):
And if that like, if you're in that spot, you know,
and you go on Google and you don't know what
you need or you don't know where to turn, you know,
you might get steered to you know, place that's not
a fit.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
Right.

Speaker 3 (51:07):
So my hope is, like, if we can change the
narrative around what is out there and what recovery looks like.
You know, I'll say my experience was going back to
that day, you know, October thirtieth, twenty twelve. Like I
thought all I was doing was just trying to like
take away this opioid. Right, I'm just like taking it away.

(51:29):
And what I've found through recovery is like how much
I've gained, right, Like if I never viewed it as
a positive. I viewed it as you know, this punitive thing, right,
But I think if we can reframe that and shift it, like,
you know, make this this life that we've got, you
know that you and I have found and so many

(51:50):
other have, others have on different pathways, Like, if we
can make that more visible and more appealing, like it's aspirational,
it's not a punishment.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
And that's what I like to see here as well,
because you know that those three words right there are
changing the narrative, you know, and it's people like ourselves
that you know, we were never part of that narrative
because we weren't supposed to be. Once again, we weren't
supposed to be that person who was running you know,
the streets. We weren't supposed to be that person getting

(52:20):
pulled over by the cops and overdosing in cars and
doing things that we weren't supposed to be doing, you know,
and changing that narrative is so important and I'm so
I'm so looking forward to see where this goes and
how it goes because you have made such huge strides
in your personal life, in the recovery community itself and

(52:40):
everything you do. But I'm curious, Ghost Pepper, where's the name?
I know what ghost peppers to me, but why ghost Pepper?

Speaker 3 (52:47):
So it really came after an extensive exercise and you know,
like again I was doing this passion project and the
hardest part for me was trying to come up with
a name. So it's you know, as uh, you know,
unexciting as it is really like, you know, the the
idea came from a ghostwriter, right, So like that's where

(53:08):
we got Ghosts. Was you know essentially like one of
the things that we do is like help you know,
ghost right to change that narrative, right, you know, And
then it was really about like, you know, it's a
small firm, you know, it's trying to be impactful.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
You know, I'm not gonna.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
Go eat a ghost pepper from what I hear though,
they're they're pretty spicy partice. I never had one again, Yeah,
but you know, really it was it was just about
you know, it's like, how do we come up with
something that it's catchy? It's catchy, you know, I wanted
something that sticks, and like I wanted something that you know,
is more fun then you know again, I think part
of like what we're trying to do is like bring

(53:43):
some levity to this. You know, everything doesn't have to
be overly dramatic or aspirational, right, it's like.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
You know and white.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
Yeah, there's a lot of shades of grain what we
do in recovery and stuff.

Speaker 3 (53:54):
Yeah, so I think as a brand name like it.
Just as soon as I was trying to play with
the word ghostwriter and as soon as I saw a
ghost up or it was like I like it.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
That's also just stuck and you have hats and everything. Man,
you can merge. You got it all, you got the swag. Yeah,
I love it.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
So you're all in And that's amazing to hear your
journey like this, Like I mean, yes, I know it
from you know, the docu series and the little bits
that we share.

Speaker 2 (54:18):
It on there and who I know of.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
You from social media, but to be able to sit
down and peel those layers back and you know, not
even really all about it. But I think what people
forget that when we do talk about our recovery and
our years in addiction, that's who we are and that's
brought us to where we are now, because if not,
we be telling a different narrative totally. You know, but
you are out there. You are you are a voice
for this. You are a voice for yourself. You're a

(54:43):
voice for the.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
Substantute disorder, the mental health, the policy. Out there.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
You do podcasts, Galorey, I see you just did Carl's podcasts.
Carl and I were connected to our buddy Dave manheimro
and Dopey. Yeah. I was with Dave last week. We're
at up and up a in New York.

Speaker 3 (55:01):
What yeah, really, Yeah, I just got connected to Dave
really well. So actually, Dave and I have been texting
for like a year maybe more.

Speaker 2 (55:09):
Dave is one of the worst texts you're ever going
to me. Well, I'm the second worst me too.

Speaker 1 (55:14):
But but Dave, Dave will pull this like midnight text
hey Britt, and then it'll be like I'll pull five
am text hey, and then like the next morning five
am he'll be like, Hey, I'm like, I'm not responding
to you now, I'm gonna play this game with you, Dave.

Speaker 2 (55:26):
But no, Dave's one of my very good friends. We do.
We are huge supporters of each other.

Speaker 3 (55:31):
Yeah, but it's okay, so split when I get out
of here, I owe McCall because I got that like
seven am yo text from him.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
Yo text. That's what he's good at, yo yo. Harry. Yeah, yeah,
wait tillards see you know what? Just yeah, he won't.

Speaker 1 (55:47):
If he does, I'm gonna be eating my words because
he's the worst.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
Dave Mannheim.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
You suck at responding to text just as bad as
I do, and Harry does apparently and calls even worse.

Speaker 2 (55:57):
But no, Dave is one of my very good friends.
He is amazing.

Speaker 1 (56:00):
I met Carl through him at the last con. Plus
Carl does great work out there, so you're doing really
good work as well.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
You.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
If people want to learn more about Harry, where can
they find you on social media?

Speaker 3 (56:13):
So I've got to get I've got to I've got
to get more active than I am, but especially in
what I do I work with people and helping them
build their social media constantly. The one that I use
the most is Instagram, and it's just at Harrycanan.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
It's easy enough and yeah, simple, simple enough, but yeah,
and they want to learn about ghot Pepper.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
Is there the website?

Speaker 3 (56:31):
Yeah, so it's www dot ghost pepperco dot com.

Speaker 2 (56:35):
That's awesome. Yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
And there are so many layers I want to peel
back still and I can't because you know, there's only
so much time we could do that in.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
Yeah, but if you could.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
Go back, Harry to you know, to twelve or thirteen
year old Harry, is there anything you would tell twelve
or thirteen year old Harry that would change the course
of your life?

Speaker 2 (56:53):
Now, that's a that's a good question. I think that.

Speaker 3 (57:02):
The first thing that came in my head when you
said that was it's going to be all right. That's
the first thing that jumped into my head. And then
the second thing that came to my mind was, you know,
because you mentioned a change, right, Like, I don't know
at this point, right, And it's easy in hindsight, but like,

(57:25):
I don't I don't think I would want to change
any of it, I might have been a little bit less,
you know, nervous and anxious and afraid along the way.
If I could have told myself back then, like hey,
it's going to be all right. But you know, I
think that you know, the journey that we're all on right,

(57:45):
like you know, we is something that it's going to
continue to change, right, Like I still you know, and
a lot of this like sounds good today, Like I
still have a lot you know, fears I still have,
you know, like brutal days.

Speaker 2 (57:59):
All of it, we all do right in progress forever, yes,
And if.

Speaker 3 (58:04):
I think I'm not, then you know, watch out, because
then we've got a bigger problem. But like if I
look at my outlook today is more of like you know,
I can I can take that, you know, fear and
uncertainty of what's coming. But like just know that, you know,
from the things that we've been through, that I've been through,
like I know that there's going to be big transitions

(58:27):
to come right, but like it's going to be okay, right,
And the last thing that I want to do is
get stuck or stagnant or think I got it all
figured out, because the most rewarding thing, you know, like
the most growth I've ever gotten has been like in
these times of like big leaps of change. Whether it

(58:47):
worked out or it didn't, you know, I learned a
lot from it. And so that's my hope is to
like not get, not allow fear to keep me stuck ever, yep.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
And I love to hear that, because I tell everybody
all the time that, like you know, the classrooms everywhere,
you know, the true test comes at the very end.
That's when you stop learning, yeah, you know, and if
you stop learning before then then there is trouble.

Speaker 2 (59:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:10):
And I love to hear that. I love to hear
that humbling part of it as well. And I want
to continue to see this journey you're on and grow and.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
I want to connect again because this was great. This
was a blast, It really was. I'm glad we did this.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
And for people who have not seen the docu series
by Brayburn, it is Brayburn.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
You could get it. Check it out. It's on my page.
It's also on Harry's I'm sure somewhere.

Speaker 1 (59:33):
It's a really great docu series with some really great
people doing some really good things.

Speaker 2 (59:37):
And check out Harry's books because I'm.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
Going to as well, Harry, thanks for being here today,
Thanks for having me, you got it, and everybody out
there thanks for joining us. Says always remember whatever it
is you stand for, be a voice. This is Brick
Carpent and Nocili Media. Have a great rest of your day.

(01:00:04):
Ter