March 17, 2024 • 39 mins
Embarking on a career that spans continents and sectors, Barbara Spitzer, founder of Two Rivers Partners, has lived the kind of life that novels are based on. She joins me to share her intriguing story, from consulting for global organizations to tackling youth leadership and food insecurity. Her 35-year journey is packed with insights for anyone looking to weave their professional pursuits with their passions, and she offers an honest look at the realities of transitioning to a portfolio career. Her narrative is a vibrant tapestry of experiences, demonstrating how embracing a variety of interests can lead to an enriched life and even redefine success.
Takeaways
- Transitioning into a portfolio career allows for greater flexibility and the opportunity to pursue multiple passions.
- Time management is crucial when juggling various roles and responsibilities.
- Embracing change and writing your own story can lead to personal growth and fulfillment.
- Prioritizing what matters most, such as family, friends, and personal well-being, is essential for a balanced and fulfilling life.
- Planning for the future, both financially and in terms of personal goals, is important for long-term happiness and success.
- Continued learning and the application of psychology can enhance personal and professional relationships.
- Navigating complexity and embracing one's unique qualities can lead to personal and professional success. Self-awareness and introspection are important for personal growth.
- Being intense and focused does not necessarily mean being aggressive or insensitive.
- Embracing individuality and being true to oneself is essential.
- Connecting with others and building relationships is valuable for personal and professional growth.
- Living an extraordinary life involves making decisions that align with one's values and desires.
These are our friends. These are your friends. AND they are living the extraordinary.
For a transcript of this episode, go to www.behindthedreamers.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jennifer (00:24):
Welcome to another episode of Behind the Dreamers.
I'm your host, jenniferLoehdding, and we are talking to
the achievers, the creators,the magic makers and the
dreamers.
These are our friends, theseare your friends and they are
living the extraordinary.
My guest today is a trailblazer, dedicating her career to
transforming organizations intothriving, learning, growth and
(00:45):
fulfillment hubs.
With a 35 year journey, hercommitment to global
transformation through peoplehas shaped her into a catalyst
for positive change.
Simply transitioning into aportfolio career.
Her impact resonates acrosscompanies, nonprofits, academia
and corporate boardrooms.
Permission extends beyondborders, encompassing youth
(01:05):
leadership, disability inclusion, mental wellness and the fight
against food insecurity.
So this is.
I love it.
I'm going to be so.
I'm so excited to chat with hertoday.
You guys are going to be in fora treat.
But before we bring her on, Ido need to do a quick shout out
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So now that we've done that, weget to have our guest on the
show.
This is going to be so much funBarbara Spitzer.
She's the founder and CEO ofTwo Rivers Partners LLC.
(02:08):
A consulting firm that preparesnon-profit, small and mid-sized
organizations for today'sdisruptive forces.
She aligns businesses andworkforce strategies focusing on
leadership, culture, humancapital and change, resulting in
purpose-driven, large-scaletransformation, and also outside
(02:28):
of the business world.
She's an avid traveler, scubadiver and underwater
photographer.
She's circumvented the globefive times and she's summited
mountain range here, so she'sdone a lot of cool things.
So, barbara, welcome to theshow.
I'm so thrilled to have youhere today.
Barbara (02:43):
Thank you, Jennifer.
It's so great to be here.
I'm really looking forward toour conversation.
Jennifer (02:48):
It's going to be so much fun.
You have done so many neatthings, and I think that's
what's so great about peoplethat are achievers.
It's like they don't just excelin one area of their lives,
they excel in many areas, and Ithink that's what makes them so
great.
And it's so fun to hear thejourneys but also see the
parallels right, like theparallels in business and in our
personal lives, and how theysort of all intersect.
Barbara (03:10):
Yeah, definitely, and when I listen to you say my
introduction you can tell I'm a35-year consultant.
There's a lot of consultantwords in there and I'm really
working on diversifying myselfbeyond sort of that narrow
definition of who I am.
Jennifer (03:28):
Yeah, sometimes I know it's hard, we get into those
state of minds of who we are.
You know, recently I had to.
I was trying to redesign mybusiness card.
And I was trying to because Ido the same thing.
I'm like, okay, well, I'm aconsultant, coach, right.
And I was trying to find like adifferent word for that and I'm
like, what is it that I reallydo?
And I started, really I wentback through my website and
started taking all my words andactually went into the chat GPT
(03:50):
and started putting them all inthere and I was like, give me a
title that summarizes all ofthis up.
And it came back with somethinglike a success architect and I
was like I love it because it'sa different right.
It's like different from sayingI'm a consultant or I'm a coach
or I'm a success coach.
It's more like I'm a successarchitect or a success catalyst
right, like helping peoplecreate success.
(04:11):
So it's fun that we get.
You know that we sometimes wedo.
We get stuck in these thelanguaging of what we think we
are, and then we have to justsort of kind of figure out how
do we make that shift to toencompass some different
languaging right.
And so I use chat GPT and itwas huge for me.
Barbara (04:28):
That's amazing.
I love that success architect.
I think that's brilliant youknow, isn't it fun?
Yeah.
Jennifer (04:34):
So I put it on my business card now.
I have it on there under myname now and I'm like I kind of
like then people are like what'sa success architect, right?
What's that mean?
Well, me more.
That's what you want them tosay.
Barbara (04:43):
Yeah, all right.
Jennifer (04:46):
Well, I want to learn more about you because, I should
say, my audience is going towant to learn more about you,
because I had the opportunity totalk to you off camera, so I
got to learn a little bit aboutyou, but I know they're going to
want to know who is BarbaraSpitzer.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat it is you're doing now, and
then I'd love for you to maybeshare how you came to this place
.
Barbara (05:02):
Yeah, Love it, love it, love it.
Yeah, the Terms PortfolioCareer.
There's a great book calledPortfolio Career, written
literally 10, 15 years ago, butit's still very relevant.
And, by the way, portfolioCareer is not just for people 60
and over.
I've been talking to a lot ofpeople in their 40s and 30s who
are contemplating such things,so it just simply means that you
(05:23):
don't just do one thing.
I was 35 years in largeconsulting in the human capital
arena.
I've run practices, accounts,geographies, you name it.
I've done it and it was great.
It was a really great way toearn a living and it really did
(05:43):
well for me.
But now I am doing multiplethings, as you heard in my
introduction.
So I sort of describe myportfolio as five domains and
right in the middle and probablythe most no, not probably the
most important are my four F'sfamily, friends, fun and fitness
.
So I love the theater, I loveto scuba dive, I'm reconnecting
(06:08):
with friends and whatnot, andthen around that are sort of
four work domains.
There's two rivers partners,where I do advise nonprofits and
small businesses doing a lot ofreally fun work, and I am my
own boss.
The second bucket is mynonprofit.
So I'm on three nonprofitboards.
I just took a chair role of aglobal nonprofit and the US
(06:30):
chair a restless developmentthat trains youth to lead on
issues that matter to them, andI'd love to tell you more about
that.
I am a corporate board director, secured my first private board
seat recently, so applying allmy skills to corporate
governance and I am a guestlecturer at my alma mater
teaches college, columbiaUniversity.
(06:51):
I'm starting the program in twoweeks where I am teaching
master's students what it meansto be a consultant.
So I've put together, you know,this portfolio and it's I'm
having the time of my life, ifnot very busy.
Jennifer (07:07):
Yeah, I love it Well, and I think that's what it's
sort of about when I think of,like, living the extraordinary.
It's really living life on yourterms, but it's also living,
you know, within your values anddoing the things that are
important to you, right, and Ilove that you talked about the
bucket where you have thefriends and the family and the
fun, because I really feel like,you know, I always go back and
(07:27):
I think about Stephen Covey'sfour quadrants and you probably
know what I'm talking about whenhe talks about the whole.
You know where we spend most ofour time, and then there's the
quadrant that we should spendtime in, which is really the us
time.
It's the personal developmentand things that bring joy to our
lives right, but we spend mostof our time in the
procrastination, where puttingbuyers out or helping other
people are wasting time rightand not doing things that add
(07:50):
value to us.
I really love that youmentioned that and I like that
you said it.
In buckets right, like you havethese buckets.
I think that it really gives usan edge when we have these
different things that we'redoing right, like we're not just
we don't have our eggs all inone basket in one place.
We're going up in multiple ways, you know.
Barbara (08:10):
Yeah, yeah, you know what's been challenging is,
frankly, not taking on too much.
You know, when you work for oneemployer with multiple clients,
as I had, you couldcompartmentalize what you're
doing.
And now it's like, oh, I haveall these things I'm doing and I
volunteer to be the gala chairand I volunteer to do this and
(08:33):
it's interesting, you know, sortof the stage of my career to
have to learn time managementand so.
But you know what also isinside that time is having time
to meditate, having time to donothing, having time to go to
lunch in the middle of the dayor go for a long walk, you know,
and so you have to.
(08:54):
And, by the way, procrastinationsometimes can be a good thing.
I don't know about you, but Iwork really well under pressure
and I'll worry about somethingand I'll procrastinate and
procrastinate until, okay, Ibetter do something, yeah, and I
sit down and I hammer it out.
It's like, okay, that wasn't sobad.
So you know, it's just, it's adifferent kind of pressure, you
(09:16):
know, and learning how to sortof operate in that way of
working has been a big change, agood one, but it's been a
change.
I'm not saying it's easy.
Jennifer (09:26):
No, and I think there's truth in that.
I mean, when you come from aplace of where you, you know are
working for somebody and thenyou move into that space, now
you're driving all of your timeand it is it's a different kind
of mindset that you take on, butthere's beauty in it because,
like I said you mentioned, youreally have the ability to do
lunch in the middle of the day.
You have you get to call theshots versus somebody dictating
(09:46):
your schedule.
That has always been my fearand you know, I've been sort of
doing my own thing for20-something years, so I've kind
of had the luxury of being ableto do that in our household.
But I have worked.
I had jobs before that where Idid work and that has always
been my fear is to have to be ina place where I have to go back
and actually have to have aboss, because I'm like I don't
(10:07):
even know if I could beemployable at this point because
I've been so kind of I don'twant to say spoiled, but I've
sort of had the luxury of beingable to have the freedom to do
those things.
And so it's crazy because, toyour point about doing the
meditation and taking the timeto do all that.
Like I have my, I get up at thesame time every day.
I get up at 5 am pretty muchevery day.
Saturday I try to sleep till 6.
(10:27):
It doesn't really happen.
I'm up every day, but I have myroutine in the morning that I
do and I really don't like todeviate from it.
And what I mean by that is likeif I have to go to a doctor, be
in an appointment before acertain time, I'm kind of like,
and it's not because I can't getout of bed, it's just because I
value my time in the morning.
Barbara (10:49):
I love that.
I love that and I need toestablish my morning routine.
Wake up at the same time everyday, that's that's again.
That's something that I've hadto relearn.
You know, I was on my own fortwo years but that wasn't really
enough to really live that life.
But I love that morning routine.
Jennifer (11:06):
It took me a long time just so you know I was a night
owl for, like I'm talking, I'min my early 50s, that's all the
way to like my mid 40s, and Iwas like I was like the night
owl, like would stay up late,get up late.
I mean, I always had to get upbecause of my kids, but I'd go
back to bed Like I'd be like ifthey, you know, if I'm like I'm
done on TV or I'm like, but nowI can't even sleep in anymore,
(11:27):
barbara, I'm like I'm not goingto put the alarm on and be like
I'm going to try, I will wake up, I will be up and I'm ready to
go in the morning, like I gotthings to do.
Isn't that funny?
Barbara (11:38):
Well, there's a thing called the five o'clock five am
club and I'm not really lookedinto it.
But yeah, I'm an early bird,I'm not a night person.
Yeah.
Jennifer (11:45):
Yeah, well, and it's.
I just said I mean it's neat.
There's a.
There's a book you might haveread it.
A good friend had told me aboutit.
It's by the sleep doctor.
It's called the power of windand it talks about, like how our
circadian rhythm, like there'sfour different animals, like
there's a, there's a lion, abear, a wolf and a dolphin
You're probably a lion, like Iam I mean we get up, we're ready
to go and like breakfast is myfavorite meal of the day, and
(12:08):
but it talks about how, based onthese circadian circadian
rhythms, how we operate and ittells us, like when's the best
time to like exercise, signcontracts, do certain things
according to our sleep schedule.
Barbara (12:22):
So like.
Jennifer (12:22):
I was joking.
I say so.
My husband's a bear, I'm a lion.
I always make this joke thatthe only time that we're really
compatible to talk is like onSaturday or Sunday afternoon at
3 pm, because his brain'sworking and mine's working,
because I'm like five o'clock,I'm ready to go, let's start
talking.
He is like no, not ready.
And then he'll come in at eightand he's like wants to talk,
and I'm like, um, no, my brainshut down at 7 pm.
Barbara (12:46):
Well, that can work too .
You know a little bit of, youknow a little distance, and
difference is a good thing.
Yeah, that is funny.
It's a good book.
Jennifer (12:54):
I tell people about it all the time.
I'm like you know, becausesometimes we get hung up on that
whole.
Like you know, like I had aclient that kept saying I need
to be up early in the morning,but he was just struggling and I
might wonder if you mosteffective and he said in the
evening.
I said, well, maybe that's whenyou need to work, is when
you're effect.
That's right.
Barbara (13:10):
That's right.
I do my hardest things in themorning.
Same me too.
I do my toughest thinking inthe morning.
Yeah, yeah, very cool.
Jennifer (13:18):
So okay, so cool.
So you're scuba diving, you gotall these buckets and things
going on.
You said you're you know, thebiggest thing for you to spend
time management.
I don't know, because you camefrom corporate, you were in that
space for a really long timebefore you moved in here and,
other than maybe like the timemanagement, was there any other
things that were like, oh mygosh, I had to really make a
shift in the way I'm doing mythings from how I was doing them
(13:40):
from before.
Barbara (13:42):
Yeah, well, you know, I was a partner for 23 years, so
I always had people around meright to delegate to.
And you know this, when youwork on your own, I'm doing my
taxes, I'm cleaning up my quickbooks it's like, oh man,
yesterday I sat down it didn'tget up for like six hours fixing
it up, and so, you know, I lovedoing the work.
(14:04):
By the way, I enjoy getting inand digging deep.
I'm also a strategic thinker,but I like putting my ideas into
action myself.
So, but that's been anadjustment, you know.
Look, I'll share with you, likeI, my planned retirement day
(14:24):
from my full-time 35-yearconsulting career was February
1st, and my former employeeemployer accelerated it for me
and I was.
I negotiated a package in Mayof 2023.
I was planning this portfoliocareer, but then I got to really
build it, you know, withouthaving to work full-time.
(14:46):
But there is, you know, there'sloss.
You know when, when you'resurrounded by people and clients
and you have a leadership roleand people need you they call
you there's a lot of loss inthat.
You know Now I'm a ragingintrovert.
People don't believe me when Itell them that, but I get my
(15:06):
energy from inside, and soworking like this is actually
better for me and my personalityand who I am.
But I think, you know, I had torealize that my story was my
story, irrespective of the factthat I left six months before I
was planning and I didn't leaveon my own terms, you know.
(15:28):
But it took me a while toreally get over that and stop
being angry and stop feelinglike, oh, this isn't how I
wanted it to happen, and justsaid you know what?
I'm going to write down mystory, I'm going to define who I
am.
So I built my website, I builtmy board bio, you know, and I I
figured out I want to go get ateaching job and I got a, you
(15:50):
know.
So once I started moving inlike different directions than
the day-to-day of servingclients, selling work,
delivering work, building assets, I was like, oh wow, this is
amazing and I'm so happy that Igot to sort of be paid while I
(16:10):
built it and it happened a lotfaster than I thought it would.
I haven't achieved every goalthat I've set out for myself,
but I feel really settled in,you know, and comfortable to
where I am, about where I am and, frankly, not that my company
was toxic, but it was toxic forme, like when I I had this
business and then I, they, they,this firm recruited me.
(16:32):
I put my company on ice andwent to work for them for five
years, against my best, my sort,of, my instincts, because I
think this is a it can be atoxic way of working for me.
I went there, it was great, butit was.
There was a certain amount oftoxicity associated with it, but
(16:53):
you know what it did.
It did me quite well.
You know.
I have that on my, on my bio,my resume.
It's a great company and I waspart of some really amazing
practices and work.
So you know.
But anyway, that's sort of likearc of your career and how you
see it, you know, coming to a,the peak and what you do
afterwards, that's somethingthat I really had thought about,
(17:17):
but I, I, I guess the fact thatit was accelerated, having to
actually activate it was was aninteresting transition.
I'll just say that.
Jennifer (17:27):
It's interesting to me too when I hear stories like
this.
And I have kind of a storysomewhere a little different,
but it kind of same thing, whereI had to step down from, you
know, come off of a leadershipposition, and it just sort of I
made the decision to do it but Ifelt that I had to.
And it's interesting, you know,when you're in the moment it
seems like such a big deal, butthen when you fast forward and
you look back you can see how it, like you just said, it really
(17:49):
spawns this whole outlay of newthings for you.
You know and I've shared thison probably several different
episodes but I was at Mary Kayfor 22 years and when I was, I
was dealing with a differenthealth condition at the time and
it had just encompassed likefour years of my life.
Like I was at a breaking pointand I had spent six months
trying to decide because I wasin leadership, so I was in the
(18:10):
top 2% of the company buildingteams, I had an active client
base, I mean, I was doing quitea bit within that mentoring,
training, and it took me sixmonths to decide to step down
and one morning I just I woke upat like five in the morning I
rolled over, told my husband Isaid today's the day I'm letting
it go, and I remember being solike, like heartbroken that day
(18:31):
and upset and I cried.
But the next morning when I gotup it was like relief.
I had felt like I needed to dothat a long time ago and I just
was scared to make the change,like because I had been in that
position for 15 plus years.
It's really all I had known andthat was kind of my career
right, like I didn't know whatit was going to do beyond that.
But I look at it now and Ithink, gosh like, because all
(18:55):
the decisions that trailed afterthat would have never happened
Like I wouldn't be doing thispodcast, all these other things
may have never even occurred hadI not made that decision that
day.
So they seem so big when you'rein them, but in hindsight you
can go back and you go.
No, you know there was a reasonI needed to exit, that I needed
to be out of that space.
Barbara (19:16):
It takes a lot of courage, you know.
But I think when you know, youknow.
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Barbara (20:24):
You know I'm a big believer in the universe and you
know, for whatever reason, itsends you signals that this is
what you need to go do and yougo do it and you have to just be
listening and acutely aware ofwhat is going on inside and out.
Yeah, that's a great story andI'm hearing more and more people
doing that these days, justsaying I'm kind of done with the
9 to 5 grind, the corporateworld, I can do more, and a lot
(20:49):
of people of all ages are reallyconsidering making this kind of
change.
Jennifer (20:53):
Yeah, well, and again, I think your priorities change.
I think, as you get older too,you decide you know, it's funny,
you're going to laugh.
You're going to love this.
So yesterday, I'm just thinkingabout this.
So my watch, it's a Garmin.
This thing drives me nuts, likeit tracks my sleep, everything.
I'm like I have to stop lookingat it, because I know what I'm
not sleeping by looking at.
But the Garmin on my phone hasa new beta app and so I'm
(21:14):
pulling it up yesterday and I'mlooking at it and it's tracking
all my stuff and I was going totell you about this and I'm like
my brain, just like we'refrozen on it About the Garmin
Because I'm tracking all mystuff.
Oh, I know what it was.
It asked me like what are thethings that are important to me?
And it used to be.
I would put races my activities.
Now you're going to love it.
Better sleep, less stress.
(21:35):
It's been healthy, healthy,like all these things.
I'm like dang.
My priorities have definitelychanged.
I want more.
I want to be healthy.
I want more energy.
Forget the racing right now.
But it's like what?
we're talking about right now,right, like your priorities
change and we decided that ourlives, like our health, our
(21:58):
well-being, our friends, ourfamily, the relationships, all
those things become important tous, and all these other things
if they're not yet.
We have to make money and wehave to do things, but we need
things that add value to who weare right.
Barbara (22:10):
You know.
So I love what you just said.
I have been really thinking alot about the arc of my life.
I started out as an army bratmoving around, where I really
built a lot of resilience andfearlessness, but I also built a
lot of anxiety and insecuritiesBecause I always went into new
schools.
Then we settled and then I wentto school, started working,
(22:35):
then like 30 to 60, because I'min my early 60s 30 to 60.
Ok, that is your wealth creationphase of your life.
Now I'm not talking about, oh,I've got to make as much money
as I possibly can.
Sure, that would be great.
But when I look back on it it'slike no, it's actually what you
need to fund 60 onward.
(22:57):
Because I think we all sort ofhit 60, give or take.
We go, oh, I've got more yearsbehind me than I have ahead of
me.
How am I going to live theyears that I have left?
With a sense of purpose, asense of mission, with a health
span, healthfully, becausehealth is so important.
(23:18):
How do I control the variablesthat I can control in my health
and what I have to change to dothat?
But for me it's like makingsure that you are thinking about
whether you have kids.
You don't have kids.
You're married, you're not.
What do you not?
You may not have the specificsof what that 60 plus is going to
look like, but you probablyknow I'm probably not going to
(23:38):
be doing the job I'm doing now.
And so what do you want to do?
And no one retires anymore at60.
Make sure that your wealthcreation plan includes how are
you going to fund what you wantto do?
So I love to travel the world.
I'm providing services tononprofits and small businesses
(24:00):
that can't handle the huge rates.
That's OK.
And I am on three boardsnonprofit boards, which require
giving money, and I'm inacademia, which doesn't pay well
, so it's not about that.
So if I hadn't have worked onthe wealth creation when it was
my peak time, I wouldn't be ableto do what I'm doing now.
(24:21):
So I think sometimes we don'tmarry the money with our mission
and you have to think about themoney as the journey to earn it
.
And then what are you going todo with it when you have it?
And I just think which moreyoung people were more cognizant
of that.
Yeah, it's not like just makingas much as you can, but it's
(24:43):
actually funding what you wantto do with those years.
Jennifer (24:46):
Yeah, because it doesn't really matter how much
money make if you don't haveanything to show for it at the
end of the day, if you can'tretire and live and do the
things you want to then youreally haven't done anything and
you're right.
That's an excellent point,because you are right, I think
we do.
We get so hung up on trying tomake more money.
Make more money, but isanything going anywhere, like,
(25:07):
is anything going into anythingto sustain your going forward
and how are you gonna live whenyou retire?
And there are so many I thinknow even baby boomers that
aren't even able to retire thesedays.
They're stuck and they'reforced to start a business or
get a job or do somethingbecause they can't.
They didn't plan well, that'sright, that's right.
Barbara (25:28):
So that's in fact.
We're looking back.
My younger self I mean I waspretty responsible, but maybe I
got started a little bit late.
I don't have children.
I don't plan on leaving my fivenieces and nephews anything.
I hope I spend every penny, butyou know, just like mapping
that journey and knowing whereyou wanna go and where you wanna
(25:51):
be, I think there's happinessand empowerment in that, as
opposed to I gotta keep working,I gotta and I know a
responsibility to put childrenthrough college and be
responsible for those things,that those things are really,
really important.
but it shouldn't be drudgery, itshould be wow what's gonna
happen when I have some morefreedom and can do more, more
(26:14):
different, unique things thatreally fuel my passions.
Jennifer (26:17):
I feel that's the same .
You know what you're saying,that I feel like that's the same
conversation you have when yougo like sort of an empty nesting
.
You know what I mean, like I'mthinking about that right now
because my youngest is still inthe house, but my kids are all
grown now.
One's married.
The other one moved out inAugust, since I got one at home
and he's working and going toschool, and so it's like the
first time in like we've beenmarried 28 years and it's like
(26:39):
we're like we have free time.
Yeah, we have free time now tolike do things.
Like I haven't had time to doanything since I was in my 20s.
Now Now, all of a sudden it'slike we don't have to be at a
soccer field or a lacrosse fieldin the morning.
We can actually go on vacationnow.
I mean, we don't have to, likeyou know, organize around
schools and all those things.
And so I'm listening and I'mthinking about that.
It's like the planning and youcan look at it the same way,
(27:02):
because I think so many peoplecome out of empty nesting and
they're like, oh my gosh, theirwhole life has been dedicated to
their kids and they didn't planfor what are they going to do
when the kids leave, right, like, when the kids, what are they
going to do?
And that is why I'm so thankfulthat I have always been
actively busy in things, becauseI was home with my kids the
whole time and I was thinkingabout had I not had something
(27:23):
that was mine right, and that Iwas committed to doing things
for myself.
It would be so easy to getwrapped up and then you go oh my
gosh, my kids are gone.
What do I do now, you know?
So I think it's a differentparallel, but kind of a similar.
Yes, similar.
Barbara (27:37):
We used to throw away the last third of our lives, you
know.
You know, zero to 30, 30 to 60,60 to okay, 90, if you're lucky
.
We used to throw that away.
Are they old?
Did they say that?
No, it's just as valuable, youknow, and we have to think about
that value, that phase of life.
And you know, I'm either a lateboomer or an early exer and I
(28:00):
argue more toward extras becauseI identify more with that
mindset.
Yes, right so, but you knowit's like there's a Stanford
Center for Longevity believesthat, you know, eventually we
will all have lived to 100,easily 100.
So why do you get youreducation in the first 25% of
(28:21):
your life?
You know 22?
Then you have to stop learning.
Yes, exactly, you know.
Why do we retire two thirdsinto it?
Why don't we keep working, youknow?
So I just that's where.
That's what I think is soexciting about where we are
today as a world.
You know, and you know we, theolder ones, need to think about
the youth and make sure thatthey have what they need to lead
(28:43):
through what are gonna be some,you know, challenging times.
Jennifer (28:48):
No, I love everything that you're saying and I agree
with you.
I think that well, and even oneducation I mean my husband, I
just had this conversation theother day I'm like I don't know
why we think we have to justlike stop learning things.
It's like the brains can stillpick up things and we just
decide oh well, I learned thatdon't need to learn anything
else.
Barbara (29:03):
No, we always need to be learning Exactly, exactly,
and I love that you.
Jennifer (29:09):
You've got a whole psychology background.
I love all that.
I was totally like I saw I wasreading your bio down like, oh
my gosh, that just means there'sso much in that that you can
you know, I'm sure have used inyour work and what you're doing
now and just understandingpeople and things.
And I always love talking topsychology people.
Barbara (29:26):
Yeah, I wanted to be a clinical psychologist, but when
I got out of college, my mommade it very clear that I
wouldn't have a bedroom in thehome.
Not that she was mean oranything, but she downsized to a
two bedroom for her and mylittle brother and I was like,
oh shoot, I guess I have to, youknow, delay going straight into
grad school.
And so I ended up working for awhile, getting my
(29:46):
organizational psychology degree, applying that to business, and
it was the best thing I everdid.
Yeah, I think it's important tounderstand the emotional world
of humans.
Jennifer (29:58):
I agree.
I just had a guy on I talked toearlier this week that well,
first of all, I worked with amentor for a while.
His mother was a psychologist.
It was really fun because wegot to learn a lot of applying
psychology and sales and workingwith you know how you get
people to do things and stufflike that.
It was really good eye-opener.
But I had a guy on this weekthat I interviewed and he wrote
a book called Brain Glue.
(30:19):
There's more to the title, butthe idea is how to get people to
buy things, like how tounderstand, how to differentiate
yourself so that people like hewas talking about, like the
squatty potty and how they youknow, like Richard Branson, how
he does the virgin records,virgin air, like the way people
is wording and stuff.
So I think psychology it's notjust about understanding people
(30:39):
right Like around that are justin your immediate circle, but it
applies in sales and business.
It transfers really intoeverything 100%.
Barbara (30:47):
Yeah, but two of my nonprofit clients are.
Both projects have been highlypolitical right.
One of them is dealing with theunion.
The other one is dealing with aglobal board of directors with
often opposing needs and wishes,and advising my CEO clients on
how do you navigate some of that.
Get the stakeholders to yes, bea politician, be really clear
(31:13):
in your messaging, stay onmessage.
How do you sound confident whenyou're trying to really sell
your idea when you have a lot ofheadwinds?
That's a life skill thateveryone needs to have,
certainly for corporatesurvivability.
Jennifer (31:31):
I didn't actually study anything like you did.
I said I've just learned thingsworking with coaches and stuff
like that.
It's interesting when you startlearning how to navigate
situations and how people, whypeople are behaving the way
they're behaving, and you canback up.
I always talk aboutsubject-object shift and working
(31:51):
with people and stuff.
It's like once you learn someof those things, you can really.
I think it works to youradvantage in a lot of ways not
in a negative way, more in howyou respond to people, react to
people, how you recognize whatpeople are doing.
Because we can only ever reallycontrol ourselves right.
We can play a part ineverything that happens.
(32:12):
I think it's good.
I know it certainly has helpedyou along the way.
It's good.
Barbara (32:18):
Well, I'm a woman who is often the only woman on the
leadership team, only woman onthe account.
That's just a function of thedemographics of when I grew up
the very few mentors.
I tried to fit in by actinglike a guy and thought being
aggressive was the answer.
(32:39):
But of course that's theopposite answer for a female,
because then she gets labeled asshrill or sharp elbow right.
So it's a journey to learn howto be feminine and strong at the
same time.
There's so many role modelsnowadays, but back when I was
growing up in my career, Ireally didn't have very many of
them, and lots of fumbles andstumbles along the way for sure.
(33:02):
But it really is thinking aboutwho your audience is and what
is it that you want from them.
Jennifer (33:10):
Right.
Barbara (33:10):
And what's your message and how are you going to get
that across?
Jennifer (33:14):
and stick to it.
Barbara (33:15):
That's right, I love it .
Jennifer (33:16):
This has been fun.
I wanted to ask you a funquestion.
I don't think this was in thequestions I sent you, but I
think it was Okay.
Yeah, if you had to sum you upin a word, like a word or two,
what would you say?
Barbara (33:29):
Well, yeah, okay Complicated, you know.
Jennifer (33:35):
I love it.
Complicated, complex, that'swhat that's a better way Like
complex, complex.
Barbara (33:43):
Yeah, oftentimes I feel misunderstood, you know, and I
feel like I've been.
I can be polarizing, you know,like over the years, I have a
following of people who werejunior to me, who I still am
such good friends with.
I go to their weddings and, youknow, and it's not a huge group
of people, but you know, thesewere relationships that were so
(34:03):
strong and so deep, you know,and I wanted to form our bosses
where that's the truth as well.
I look at some other people andthey just have this wide, broad
network and everybody's in itand that's not me, you know.
So, so, right, I think I'mgenerous and kind, I'm a great
listener, relationship builder.
I also, though, I'm an anxiousperson and sometimes that can
(34:26):
come across as intense, going iton my own, you know, solo, not
slowing down enough for everyoneelse, and you know it could
come across as worried andinsecure.
Instead, it's more like, oh,I'm sort of ruminating on
something and I'm worried aboutit, yeah, right.
Jennifer (34:45):
And.
Barbara (34:45):
I think that you know that complexity is.
You know, over the years youlearn how to deal with those
sorts of traits that maybe notserve us all as well as we wish
that they would, but they'restill part of who we are, yeah.
Jennifer (34:58):
So how do you?
Barbara (34:59):
honor that part of who you are, but also move through
life with a little more gracefor your own mental health but
also, you know, just for the funyou know of having fun at work
and so so it's been acomplicated journey.
You know like I got an anxietydiagnosis a formal one in 2021.
(35:20):
I was like, oh my God, thatexplains so much when I was in
that meeting and I said that assuch a jerk, it wasn't because I
was a jerk, it's because I waslike feeling all of these things
and I was anxious.
And so you know, that's that'ssome.
You got to go through lifewilling to really look inside.
Jennifer (35:42):
I think so too yeah really look inside yourself.
Barbara (35:46):
Google does a lot of stuff around introspective and
understanding yourself and Ihate it.
I don't like it, but so anyway.
So it's been a complexexistence, but it's a wonderful
one.
Jennifer (36:00):
Yeah, no, that's good that you said all that and I,
you know I get I ask thatquestion every once in a while
and I asked you because I knowyou have the psychology
background is where I reallywanted to ask you that.
I think it is good.
When we go introspective, likewe know, because I do that
sometimes too I get I'm pretty.
I mean I build relationshipspretty easy, but I'm not a
person that I don't have a lotof like friends that I like hang
out with all the time.
(36:20):
I know a lot of people and Ihave no problem having
conversations with people, butI'm okay with stopping it right
there, like I don't need all ofthat around.
And sometimes I can be a directand driven and focused and
people think I'm just walking ontheir shoes and it's not.
I just want to get done what Igot to do.
Before I forget to get it done,I need to get it off and check
it off the list because I got500 things going.
So I can relate to that in somelevels, because people will say
(36:41):
I'm intense and it's not thatI'm being necessarily intense,
it's just I'm.
I got to get a job done.
I got to get from point A topoint B, and if you're not
walking with me then I don'thave time to mess around.
We just got to move.
Barbara (36:53):
Exactly, and that's gotta be okay.
Why do we have to look likeeverybody else in terms of the
person that we are and how weshow up?
Jennifer (37:00):
I've learned in my house.
It's funny because you know,when you have, you know ever
different people, personalitiesin the house, you realize some
of the kids are like yourhusband, some are like you, and
it's funny.
I always joke about thisbecause I know, like you know,
my husband is going to take alittle slower moving from point
A to point B.
I'm like, dude, you're going todo it.
You're not going to do itbecause I'm going to take care
of it.
I'm like I got to get it done,so I can certainly appreciate
(37:23):
what you're saying.
So and I like, I like so.
If our, let's say, our audiencewants to get in touch with you,
they want to keep up, see whatyou're doing, they want to see
what this two rivers in partnersis about, and all of this good
stuff, where do we want to sendthem?
Barbara (37:38):
Well, you know, I got a website it's to
riverspartnerscom, of course,and I'm really active on
LinkedIn.
I love LinkedIn, although I'm alittle bit mad at LinkedIn
right now because they changedtheir algorithm yet again.
And I never find the peoplethat I want.
I follow you.
I'm like what where's Jennifer?
You know or you know so so.
But LinkedIn I'm really active.
(37:59):
I have a newsletter and I'malways posting things, but, yeah
, probably my website andLinkedIn are probably the best
places to locate me.
Jennifer (38:07):
We'll make sure to.
When we get all the, when weget the editor gets all the
bells and whistles on it, we'llget the webpage in there.
Barbara (38:12):
So people know how to find it in there.
Jennifer (38:14):
So, yeah, all right.
Well, I love what you're doing.
I enjoy chatting with you.
I think you're an amazingperson.
You're doing a lot of coolthings and I love that you're
just like still like groovin anddoing your thing and like
loving it, and that's what Ithink is the best about when you
when I say live in.
Extraordinary is that you'rebeing able to call the shots and
decide how you want to liveyour life and do it your way.
Barbara (38:34):
That's right.
Freedom really, and yeah sothank you, thank you for having
me.
I've really enjoyed talking toyou, get great energy, thank you
you too, and, of course, to ouraudience.
Jennifer (38:45):
If you enjoy the show, head on over to Apple.
You can give us a review overthere.
Hit that subscribe button onYouTube so we can keep talking
to all these fabulous people andsharing the stories.
And, as I always say, in orderto live, the extraordinary must
start, and every start beginswith a decision.
You guys, take care, be safe,be kind to one another.
We will see you next time.
Welcome to another episode of Behind the Dreamers.
I'm your host, jenniferLoehdding, and we are talking to
the achievers, the creators,the magic makers and the
dreamers.
These are our friends, theseare your friends and they are
living the extraordinary.
My guest today is a trailblazer, dedicating her career to
transforming organizations intothriving, learning, growth and
(00:45):
fulfillment hubs.
With a 35 year journey, hercommitment to global
transformation through peoplehas shaped her into a catalyst
for positive change.
Simply transitioning into aportfolio career.
Her impact resonates acrosscompanies, nonprofits, academia
and corporate boardrooms.
Permission extends beyondborders, encompassing youth
(01:05):
leadership, disability inclusion, mental wellness and the fight
against food insecurity.
So this is.
I love it.
I'm going to be so.
I'm so excited to chat with hertoday.
You guys are going to be in fora treat.
But before we bring her on, Ido need to do a quick shout out
to our sponsor.
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your content shine All right.
So now that we've done that, weget to have our guest on the
show.
This is going to be so much funBarbara Spitzer.
She's the founder and CEO ofTwo Rivers Partners LLC.
(02:08):
A consulting firm that preparesnon-profit, small and mid-sized
organizations for today'sdisruptive forces.
She aligns businesses andworkforce strategies focusing on
leadership, culture, humancapital and change, resulting in
purpose-driven, large-scaletransformation, and also outside
(02:28):
of the business world.
She's an avid traveler, scubadiver and underwater
photographer.
She's circumvented the globefive times and she's summited
mountain range here, so she'sdone a lot of cool things.
So, barbara, welcome to theshow.
I'm so thrilled to have youhere today.
Barbara (02:43):
Thank you, Jennifer.
It's so great to be here.
I'm really looking forward toour conversation.
Jennifer (02:48):
It's going to be so much fun.
You have done so many neatthings, and I think that's
what's so great about peoplethat are achievers.
It's like they don't just excelin one area of their lives,
they excel in many areas, and Ithink that's what makes them so
great.
And it's so fun to hear thejourneys but also see the
parallels right, like theparallels in business and in our
personal lives, and how theysort of all intersect.
Barbara (03:10):
Yeah, definitely, and when I listen to you say my
introduction you can tell I'm a35-year consultant.
There's a lot of consultantwords in there and I'm really
working on diversifying myselfbeyond sort of that narrow
definition of who I am.
Jennifer (03:28):
Yeah, sometimes I know it's hard, we get into those
state of minds of who we are.
You know, recently I had to.
I was trying to redesign mybusiness card.
And I was trying to because Ido the same thing.
I'm like, okay, well, I'm aconsultant, coach, right.
And I was trying to find like adifferent word for that and I'm
like, what is it that I reallydo?
And I started, really I wentback through my website and
started taking all my words andactually went into the chat GPT
(03:50):
and started putting them all inthere and I was like, give me a
title that summarizes all ofthis up.
And it came back with somethinglike a success architect and I
was like I love it because it'sa different right.
It's like different from sayingI'm a consultant or I'm a coach
or I'm a success coach.
It's more like I'm a successarchitect or a success catalyst
right, like helping peoplecreate success.
(04:11):
So it's fun that we get.
You know that we sometimes wedo.
We get stuck in these thelanguaging of what we think we
are, and then we have to justsort of kind of figure out how
do we make that shift to toencompass some different
languaging right.
And so I use chat GPT and itwas huge for me.
Barbara (04:28):
That's amazing.
I love that success architect.
I think that's brilliant youknow, isn't it fun?
Yeah.
Jennifer (04:34):
So I put it on my business card now.
I have it on there under myname now and I'm like I kind of
like then people are like what'sa success architect, right?
What's that mean?
Well, me more.
That's what you want them tosay.
Barbara (04:43):
Yeah, all right.
Jennifer (04:46):
Well, I want to learn more about you because, I should
say, my audience is going towant to learn more about you,
because I had the opportunity totalk to you off camera, so I
got to learn a little bit aboutyou, but I know they're going to
want to know who is BarbaraSpitzer.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat it is you're doing now, and
then I'd love for you to maybeshare how you came to this place
.
Barbara (05:02):
Yeah, Love it, love it, love it.
Yeah, the Terms PortfolioCareer.
There's a great book calledPortfolio Career, written
literally 10, 15 years ago, butit's still very relevant.
And, by the way, portfolioCareer is not just for people 60
and over.
I've been talking to a lot ofpeople in their 40s and 30s who
are contemplating such things,so it just simply means that you
(05:23):
don't just do one thing.
I was 35 years in largeconsulting in the human capital
arena.
I've run practices, accounts,geographies, you name it.
I've done it and it was great.
It was a really great way toearn a living and it really did
(05:43):
well for me.
But now I am doing multiplethings, as you heard in my
introduction.
So I sort of describe myportfolio as five domains and
right in the middle and probablythe most no, not probably the
most important are my four F'sfamily, friends, fun and fitness
.
So I love the theater, I loveto scuba dive, I'm reconnecting
(06:08):
with friends and whatnot, andthen around that are sort of
four work domains.
There's two rivers partners,where I do advise nonprofits and
small businesses doing a lot ofreally fun work, and I am my
own boss.
The second bucket is mynonprofit.
So I'm on three nonprofitboards.
I just took a chair role of aglobal nonprofit and the US
(06:30):
chair a restless developmentthat trains youth to lead on
issues that matter to them, andI'd love to tell you more about
that.
I am a corporate board director, secured my first private board
seat recently, so applying allmy skills to corporate
governance and I am a guestlecturer at my alma mater
teaches college, columbiaUniversity.
(06:51):
I'm starting the program in twoweeks where I am teaching
master's students what it meansto be a consultant.
So I've put together, you know,this portfolio and it's I'm
having the time of my life, ifnot very busy.
Jennifer (07:07):
Yeah, I love it Well, and I think that's what it's
sort of about when I think of,like, living the extraordinary.
It's really living life on yourterms, but it's also living,
you know, within your values anddoing the things that are
important to you, right, and Ilove that you talked about the
bucket where you have thefriends and the family and the
fun, because I really feel like,you know, I always go back and
(07:27):
I think about Stephen Covey'sfour quadrants and you probably
know what I'm talking about whenhe talks about the whole.
You know where we spend most ofour time, and then there's the
quadrant that we should spendtime in, which is really the us
time.
It's the personal developmentand things that bring joy to our
lives right, but we spend mostof our time in the
procrastination, where puttingbuyers out or helping other
people are wasting time rightand not doing things that add
(07:50):
value to us.
I really love that youmentioned that and I like that
you said it.
In buckets right, like you havethese buckets.
I think that it really gives usan edge when we have these
different things that we'redoing right, like we're not just
we don't have our eggs all inone basket in one place.
We're going up in multiple ways, you know.
Barbara (08:10):
Yeah, yeah, you know what's been challenging is,
frankly, not taking on too much.
You know, when you work for oneemployer with multiple clients,
as I had, you couldcompartmentalize what you're
doing.
And now it's like, oh, I haveall these things I'm doing and I
volunteer to be the gala chairand I volunteer to do this and
(08:33):
it's interesting, you know, sortof the stage of my career to
have to learn time managementand so.
But you know what also isinside that time is having time
to meditate, having time to donothing, having time to go to
lunch in the middle of the dayor go for a long walk, you know,
and so you have to.
(08:54):
And, by the way, procrastinationsometimes can be a good thing.
I don't know about you, but Iwork really well under pressure
and I'll worry about somethingand I'll procrastinate and
procrastinate until, okay, Ibetter do something, yeah, and I
sit down and I hammer it out.
It's like, okay, that wasn't sobad.
So you know, it's just, it's adifferent kind of pressure, you
(09:16):
know, and learning how to sortof operate in that way of
working has been a big change, agood one, but it's been a
change.
I'm not saying it's easy.
Jennifer (09:26):
No, and I think there's truth in that.
I mean, when you come from aplace of where you, you know are
working for somebody and thenyou move into that space, now
you're driving all of your timeand it is it's a different kind
of mindset that you take on, butthere's beauty in it because,
like I said you mentioned, youreally have the ability to do
lunch in the middle of the day.
You have you get to call theshots versus somebody dictating
(09:46):
your schedule.
That has always been my fearand you know, I've been sort of
doing my own thing for20-something years, so I've kind
of had the luxury of being ableto do that in our household.
But I have worked.
I had jobs before that where Idid work and that has always
been my fear is to have to be ina place where I have to go back
and actually have to have aboss, because I'm like I don't
(10:07):
even know if I could beemployable at this point because
I've been so kind of I don'twant to say spoiled, but I've
sort of had the luxury of beingable to have the freedom to do
those things.
And so it's crazy because, toyour point about doing the
meditation and taking the timeto do all that.
Like I have my, I get up at thesame time every day.
I get up at 5 am pretty muchevery day.
Saturday I try to sleep till 6.
(10:27):
It doesn't really happen.
I'm up every day, but I have myroutine in the morning that I
do and I really don't like todeviate from it.
And what I mean by that is likeif I have to go to a doctor, be
in an appointment before acertain time, I'm kind of like,
and it's not because I can't getout of bed, it's just because I
value my time in the morning.
Barbara (10:49):
I love that.
I love that and I need toestablish my morning routine.
Wake up at the same time everyday, that's that's again.
That's something that I've hadto relearn.
You know, I was on my own fortwo years but that wasn't really
enough to really live that life.
But I love that morning routine.
Jennifer (11:06):
It took me a long time just so you know I was a night
owl for, like I'm talking, I'min my early 50s, that's all the
way to like my mid 40s, and Iwas like I was like the night
owl, like would stay up late,get up late.
I mean, I always had to get upbecause of my kids, but I'd go
back to bed Like I'd be like ifthey, you know, if I'm like I'm
done on TV or I'm like, but nowI can't even sleep in anymore,
(11:27):
barbara, I'm like I'm not goingto put the alarm on and be like
I'm going to try, I will wake up, I will be up and I'm ready to
go in the morning, like I gotthings to do.
Isn't that funny?
Barbara (11:38):
Well, there's a thing called the five o'clock five am
club and I'm not really lookedinto it.
But yeah, I'm an early bird,I'm not a night person.
Yeah.
Jennifer (11:45):
Yeah, well, and it's.
I just said I mean it's neat.
There's a.
There's a book you might haveread it.
A good friend had told me aboutit.
It's by the sleep doctor.
It's called the power of windand it talks about, like how our
circadian rhythm, like there'sfour different animals, like
there's a, there's a lion, abear, a wolf and a dolphin
You're probably a lion, like Iam I mean we get up, we're ready
to go and like breakfast is myfavorite meal of the day, and
(12:08):
but it talks about how, based onthese circadian circadian
rhythms, how we operate and ittells us, like when's the best
time to like exercise, signcontracts, do certain things
according to our sleep schedule.
Barbara (12:22):
So like.
Jennifer (12:22):
I was joking.
I say so.
My husband's a bear, I'm a lion.
I always make this joke thatthe only time that we're really
compatible to talk is like onSaturday or Sunday afternoon at
3 pm, because his brain'sworking and mine's working,
because I'm like five o'clock,I'm ready to go, let's start
talking.
He is like no, not ready.
And then he'll come in at eightand he's like wants to talk,
and I'm like, um, no, my brainshut down at 7 pm.
Barbara (12:46):
Well, that can work too .
You know a little bit of, youknow a little distance, and
difference is a good thing.
Yeah, that is funny.
It's a good book.
Jennifer (12:54):
I tell people about it all the time.
I'm like you know, becausesometimes we get hung up on that
whole.
Like you know, like I had aclient that kept saying I need
to be up early in the morning,but he was just struggling and I
might wonder if you mosteffective and he said in the
evening.
I said, well, maybe that's whenyou need to work, is when
you're effect.
That's right.
Barbara (13:10):
That's right.
I do my hardest things in themorning.
Same me too.
I do my toughest thinking inthe morning.
Yeah, yeah, very cool.
Jennifer (13:18):
So okay, so cool.
So you're scuba diving, you gotall these buckets and things
going on.
You said you're you know, thebiggest thing for you to spend
time management.
I don't know, because you camefrom corporate, you were in that
space for a really long timebefore you moved in here and,
other than maybe like the timemanagement, was there any other
things that were like, oh mygosh, I had to really make a
shift in the way I'm doing mythings from how I was doing them
(13:40):
from before.
Barbara (13:42):
Yeah, well, you know, I was a partner for 23 years, so
I always had people around meright to delegate to.
And you know this, when youwork on your own, I'm doing my
taxes, I'm cleaning up my quickbooks it's like, oh man,
yesterday I sat down it didn'tget up for like six hours fixing
it up, and so, you know, I lovedoing the work.
(14:04):
By the way, I enjoy getting inand digging deep.
I'm also a strategic thinker,but I like putting my ideas into
action myself.
So, but that's been anadjustment, you know.
Look, I'll share with you, likeI, my planned retirement day
(14:24):
from my full-time 35-yearconsulting career was February
1st, and my former employeeemployer accelerated it for me
and I was.
I negotiated a package in Mayof 2023.
I was planning this portfoliocareer, but then I got to really
build it, you know, withouthaving to work full-time.
(14:46):
But there is, you know, there'sloss.
You know when, when you'resurrounded by people and clients
and you have a leadership roleand people need you they call
you there's a lot of loss inthat.
You know Now I'm a ragingintrovert.
People don't believe me when Itell them that, but I get my
(15:06):
energy from inside, and soworking like this is actually
better for me and my personalityand who I am.
But I think, you know, I had torealize that my story was my
story, irrespective of the factthat I left six months before I
was planning and I didn't leaveon my own terms, you know.
(15:28):
But it took me a while toreally get over that and stop
being angry and stop feelinglike, oh, this isn't how I
wanted it to happen, and justsaid you know what?
I'm going to write down mystory, I'm going to define who I
am.
So I built my website, I builtmy board bio, you know, and I I
figured out I want to go get ateaching job and I got a, you
(15:50):
know.
So once I started moving inlike different directions than
the day-to-day of servingclients, selling work,
delivering work, building assets, I was like, oh wow, this is
amazing and I'm so happy that Igot to sort of be paid while I
(16:10):
built it and it happened a lotfaster than I thought it would.
I haven't achieved every goalthat I've set out for myself,
but I feel really settled in,you know, and comfortable to
where I am, about where I am and, frankly, not that my company
was toxic, but it was toxic forme, like when I I had this
business and then I, they, they,this firm recruited me.
(16:32):
I put my company on ice andwent to work for them for five
years, against my best, my sort,of, my instincts, because I
think this is a it can be atoxic way of working for me.
I went there, it was great, butit was.
There was a certain amount oftoxicity associated with it, but
(16:53):
you know what it did.
It did me quite well.
You know.
I have that on my, on my bio,my resume.
It's a great company and I waspart of some really amazing
practices and work.
So you know.
But anyway, that's sort of likearc of your career and how you
see it, you know, coming to a,the peak and what you do
afterwards, that's somethingthat I really had thought about,
(17:17):
but I, I, I guess the fact thatit was accelerated, having to
actually activate it was was aninteresting transition.
I'll just say that.
Jennifer (17:27):
It's interesting to me too when I hear stories like
this.
And I have kind of a storysomewhere a little different,
but it kind of same thing, whereI had to step down from, you
know, come off of a leadershipposition, and it just sort of I
made the decision to do it but Ifelt that I had to.
And it's interesting, you know,when you're in the moment it
seems like such a big deal, butthen when you fast forward and
you look back you can see how it, like you just said, it really
(17:49):
spawns this whole outlay of newthings for you.
You know and I've shared thison probably several different
episodes but I was at Mary Kayfor 22 years and when I was, I
was dealing with a differenthealth condition at the time and
it had just encompassed likefour years of my life.
Like I was at a breaking pointand I had spent six months
trying to decide because I wasin leadership, so I was in the
(18:10):
top 2% of the company buildingteams, I had an active client
base, I mean, I was doing quitea bit within that mentoring,
training, and it took me sixmonths to decide to step down
and one morning I just I woke upat like five in the morning I
rolled over, told my husband Isaid today's the day I'm letting
it go, and I remember being solike, like heartbroken that day
(18:31):
and upset and I cried.
But the next morning when I gotup it was like relief.
I had felt like I needed to dothat a long time ago and I just
was scared to make the change,like because I had been in that
position for 15 plus years.
It's really all I had known andthat was kind of my career
right, like I didn't know whatit was going to do beyond that.
But I look at it now and Ithink, gosh like, because all
(18:55):
the decisions that trailed afterthat would have never happened
Like I wouldn't be doing thispodcast, all these other things
may have never even occurred hadI not made that decision that
day.
So they seem so big when you'rein them, but in hindsight you
can go back and you go.
No, you know there was a reasonI needed to exit, that I needed
to be out of that space.
Barbara (19:16):
It takes a lot of courage, you know.
But I think when you know, youknow.
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Jennifer (20:20):
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Barbara (20:24):
You know I'm a big believer in the universe and you
know, for whatever reason, itsends you signals that this is
what you need to go do and yougo do it and you have to just be
listening and acutely aware ofwhat is going on inside and out.
Yeah, that's a great story andI'm hearing more and more people
doing that these days, justsaying I'm kind of done with the
9 to 5 grind, the corporateworld, I can do more, and a lot
(20:49):
of people of all ages are reallyconsidering making this kind of
change.
Jennifer (20:53):
Yeah, well, and again, I think your priorities change.
I think, as you get older too,you decide you know, it's funny,
you're going to laugh.
You're going to love this.
So yesterday, I'm just thinkingabout this.
So my watch, it's a Garmin.
This thing drives me nuts, likeit tracks my sleep, everything.
I'm like I have to stop lookingat it, because I know what I'm
not sleeping by looking at.
But the Garmin on my phone hasa new beta app and so I'm
(21:14):
pulling it up yesterday and I'mlooking at it and it's tracking
all my stuff and I was going totell you about this and I'm like
my brain, just like we'refrozen on it About the Garmin
Because I'm tracking all mystuff.
Oh, I know what it was.
It asked me like what are thethings that are important to me?
And it used to be.
I would put races my activities.
Now you're going to love it.
Better sleep, less stress.
(21:35):
It's been healthy, healthy,like all these things.
I'm like dang.
My priorities have definitelychanged.
I want more.
I want to be healthy.
I want more energy.
Forget the racing right now.
But it's like what?
we're talking about right now,right, like your priorities
change and we decided that ourlives, like our health, our
(21:58):
well-being, our friends, ourfamily, the relationships, all
those things become important tous, and all these other things
if they're not yet.
We have to make money and wehave to do things, but we need
things that add value to who weare right.
Barbara (22:10):
You know.
So I love what you just said.
I have been really thinking alot about the arc of my life.
I started out as an army bratmoving around, where I really
built a lot of resilience andfearlessness, but I also built a
lot of anxiety and insecuritiesBecause I always went into new
schools.
Then we settled and then I wentto school, started working,
(22:35):
then like 30 to 60, because I'min my early 60s 30 to 60.
Ok, that is your wealth creationphase of your life.
Now I'm not talking about, oh,I've got to make as much money
as I possibly can.
Sure, that would be great.
But when I look back on it it'slike no, it's actually what you
need to fund 60 onward.
(22:57):
Because I think we all sort ofhit 60, give or take.
We go, oh, I've got more yearsbehind me than I have ahead of
me.
How am I going to live theyears that I have left?
With a sense of purpose, asense of mission, with a health
span, healthfully, becausehealth is so important.
(23:18):
How do I control the variablesthat I can control in my health
and what I have to change to dothat?
But for me it's like makingsure that you are thinking about
whether you have kids.
You don't have kids.
You're married, you're not.
What do you not?
You may not have the specificsof what that 60 plus is going to
look like, but you probablyknow I'm probably not going to
(23:38):
be doing the job I'm doing now.
And so what do you want to do?
And no one retires anymore at60.
Make sure that your wealthcreation plan includes how are
you going to fund what you wantto do?
So I love to travel the world.
I'm providing services tononprofits and small businesses
(24:00):
that can't handle the huge rates.
That's OK.
And I am on three boardsnonprofit boards, which require
giving money, and I'm inacademia, which doesn't pay well
, so it's not about that.
So if I hadn't have worked onthe wealth creation when it was
my peak time, I wouldn't be ableto do what I'm doing now.
(24:21):
So I think sometimes we don'tmarry the money with our mission
and you have to think about themoney as the journey to earn it
.
And then what are you going todo with it when you have it?
And I just think which moreyoung people were more cognizant
of that.
Yeah, it's not like just makingas much as you can, but it's
(24:43):
actually funding what you wantto do with those years.
Jennifer (24:46):
Yeah, because it doesn't really matter how much
money make if you don't haveanything to show for it at the
end of the day, if you can'tretire and live and do the
things you want to then youreally haven't done anything and
you're right.
That's an excellent point,because you are right, I think
we do.
We get so hung up on trying tomake more money.
Make more money, but isanything going anywhere, like,
(25:07):
is anything going into anythingto sustain your going forward
and how are you gonna live whenyou retire?
And there are so many I thinknow even baby boomers that
aren't even able to retire thesedays.
They're stuck and they'reforced to start a business or
get a job or do somethingbecause they can't.
They didn't plan well, that'sright, that's right.
Barbara (25:28):
So that's in fact.
We're looking back.
My younger self I mean I waspretty responsible, but maybe I
got started a little bit late.
I don't have children.
I don't plan on leaving my fivenieces and nephews anything.
I hope I spend every penny, butyou know, just like mapping
that journey and knowing whereyou wanna go and where you wanna
(25:51):
be, I think there's happinessand empowerment in that, as
opposed to I gotta keep working,I gotta and I know a
responsibility to put childrenthrough college and be
responsible for those things,that those things are really,
really important.
but it shouldn't be drudgery, itshould be wow what's gonna
happen when I have some morefreedom and can do more, more
(26:14):
different, unique things thatreally fuel my passions.
Jennifer (26:17):
I feel that's the same .
You know what you're saying,that I feel like that's the same
conversation you have when yougo like sort of an empty nesting
.
You know what I mean, like I'mthinking about that right now
because my youngest is still inthe house, but my kids are all
grown now.
One's married.
The other one moved out inAugust, since I got one at home
and he's working and going toschool, and so it's like the
first time in like we've beenmarried 28 years and it's like
(26:39):
we're like we have free time.
Yeah, we have free time now tolike do things.
Like I haven't had time to doanything since I was in my 20s.
Now Now, all of a sudden it'slike we don't have to be at a
soccer field or a lacrosse fieldin the morning.
We can actually go on vacationnow.
I mean, we don't have to, likeyou know, organize around
schools and all those things.
And so I'm listening and I'mthinking about that.
It's like the planning and youcan look at it the same way,
(27:02):
because I think so many peoplecome out of empty nesting and
they're like, oh my gosh, theirwhole life has been dedicated to
their kids and they didn't planfor what are they going to do
when the kids leave, right, like, when the kids, what are they
going to do?
And that is why I'm so thankfulthat I have always been
actively busy in things, becauseI was home with my kids the
whole time and I was thinkingabout had I not had something
(27:23):
that was mine right, and that Iwas committed to doing things
for myself.
It would be so easy to getwrapped up and then you go oh my
gosh, my kids are gone.
What do I do now, you know?
So I think it's a differentparallel, but kind of a similar.
Yes, similar.
Barbara (27:37):
We used to throw away the last third of our lives, you
know.
You know, zero to 30, 30 to 60,60 to okay, 90, if you're lucky
.
We used to throw that away.
Are they old?
Did they say that?
No, it's just as valuable, youknow, and we have to think about
that value, that phase of life.
And you know, I'm either a lateboomer or an early exer and I
(28:00):
argue more toward extras becauseI identify more with that
mindset.
Yes, right so, but you knowit's like there's a Stanford
Center for Longevity believesthat, you know, eventually we
will all have lived to 100,easily 100.
So why do you get youreducation in the first 25% of
(28:21):
your life?
You know 22?
Then you have to stop learning.
Yes, exactly, you know.
Why do we retire two thirdsinto it?
Why don't we keep working, youknow?
So I just that's where.
That's what I think is soexciting about where we are
today as a world.
You know, and you know we, theolder ones, need to think about
the youth and make sure thatthey have what they need to lead
(28:43):
through what are gonna be some,you know, challenging times.
Jennifer (28:48):
No, I love everything that you're saying and I agree
with you.
I think that well, and even oneducation I mean my husband, I
just had this conversation theother day I'm like I don't know
why we think we have to justlike stop learning things.
It's like the brains can stillpick up things and we just
decide oh well, I learned thatdon't need to learn anything
else.
Barbara (29:03):
No, we always need to be learning Exactly, exactly,
and I love that you.
Jennifer (29:09):
You've got a whole psychology background.
I love all that.
I was totally like I saw I wasreading your bio down like, oh
my gosh, that just means there'sso much in that that you can
you know, I'm sure have used inyour work and what you're doing
now and just understandingpeople and things.
And I always love talking topsychology people.
Barbara (29:26):
Yeah, I wanted to be a clinical psychologist, but when
I got out of college, my mommade it very clear that I
wouldn't have a bedroom in thehome.
Not that she was mean oranything, but she downsized to a
two bedroom for her and mylittle brother and I was like,
oh shoot, I guess I have to, youknow, delay going straight into
grad school.
And so I ended up working for awhile, getting my
(29:46):
organizational psychology degree, applying that to business, and
it was the best thing I everdid.
Yeah, I think it's important tounderstand the emotional world
of humans.
Jennifer (29:58):
I agree.
I just had a guy on I talked toearlier this week that well,
first of all, I worked with amentor for a while.
His mother was a psychologist.
It was really fun because wegot to learn a lot of applying
psychology and sales and workingwith you know how you get
people to do things and stufflike that.
It was really good eye-opener.
But I had a guy on this weekthat I interviewed and he wrote
a book called Brain Glue.
(30:19):
There's more to the title, butthe idea is how to get people to
buy things, like how tounderstand, how to differentiate
yourself so that people like hewas talking about, like the
squatty potty and how they youknow, like Richard Branson, how
he does the virgin records,virgin air, like the way people
is wording and stuff.
So I think psychology it's notjust about understanding people
(30:39):
right Like around that are justin your immediate circle, but it
applies in sales and business.
It transfers really intoeverything 100%.
Barbara (30:47):
Yeah, but two of my nonprofit clients are.
Both projects have been highlypolitical right.
One of them is dealing with theunion.
The other one is dealing with aglobal board of directors with
often opposing needs and wishes,and advising my CEO clients on
how do you navigate some of that.
Get the stakeholders to yes, bea politician, be really clear
(31:13):
in your messaging, stay onmessage.
How do you sound confident whenyou're trying to really sell
your idea when you have a lot ofheadwinds?
That's a life skill thateveryone needs to have,
certainly for corporatesurvivability.
Jennifer (31:31):
I didn't actually study anything like you did.
I said I've just learned thingsworking with coaches and stuff
like that.
It's interesting when you startlearning how to navigate
situations and how people, whypeople are behaving the way
they're behaving, and you canback up.
I always talk aboutsubject-object shift and working
(31:51):
with people and stuff.
It's like once you learn someof those things, you can really.
I think it works to youradvantage in a lot of ways not
in a negative way, more in howyou respond to people, react to
people, how you recognize whatpeople are doing.
Because we can only ever reallycontrol ourselves right.
We can play a part ineverything that happens.
(32:12):
I think it's good.
I know it certainly has helpedyou along the way.
It's good.
Barbara (32:18):
Well, I'm a woman who is often the only woman on the
leadership team, only woman onthe account.
That's just a function of thedemographics of when I grew up
the very few mentors.
I tried to fit in by actinglike a guy and thought being
aggressive was the answer.
(32:39):
But of course that's theopposite answer for a female,
because then she gets labeled asshrill or sharp elbow right.
So it's a journey to learn howto be feminine and strong at the
same time.
There's so many role modelsnowadays, but back when I was
growing up in my career, Ireally didn't have very many of
them, and lots of fumbles andstumbles along the way for sure.
(33:02):
But it really is thinking aboutwho your audience is and what
is it that you want from them.
Jennifer (33:10):
Right.
Barbara (33:10):
And what's your message and how are you going to get
that across?
Jennifer (33:14):
and stick to it.
Barbara (33:15):
That's right, I love it .
Jennifer (33:16):
This has been fun.
I wanted to ask you a funquestion.
I don't think this was in thequestions I sent you, but I
think it was Okay.
Yeah, if you had to sum you upin a word, like a word or two,
what would you say?
Barbara (33:29):
Well, yeah, okay Complicated, you know.
Jennifer (33:35):
I love it.
Complicated, complex, that'swhat that's a better way Like
complex, complex.
Barbara (33:43):
Yeah, oftentimes I feel misunderstood, you know, and I
feel like I've been.
I can be polarizing, you know,like over the years, I have a
following of people who werejunior to me, who I still am
such good friends with.
I go to their weddings and, youknow, and it's not a huge group
of people, but you know, thesewere relationships that were so
(34:03):
strong and so deep, you know,and I wanted to form our bosses
where that's the truth as well.
I look at some other people andthey just have this wide, broad
network and everybody's in itand that's not me, you know.
So, so, right, I think I'mgenerous and kind, I'm a great
listener, relationship builder.
I also, though, I'm an anxiousperson and sometimes that can
(34:26):
come across as intense, going iton my own, you know, solo, not
slowing down enough for everyoneelse, and you know it could
come across as worried andinsecure.
Instead, it's more like, oh,I'm sort of ruminating on
something and I'm worried aboutit, yeah, right.
Jennifer (34:45):
And.
Barbara (34:45):
I think that you know that complexity is.
You know, over the years youlearn how to deal with those
sorts of traits that maybe notserve us all as well as we wish
that they would, but they'restill part of who we are, yeah.
Jennifer (34:58):
So how do you?
Barbara (34:59):
honor that part of who you are, but also move through
life with a little more gracefor your own mental health but
also, you know, just for the funyou know of having fun at work
and so so it's been acomplicated journey.
You know like I got an anxietydiagnosis a formal one in 2021.
(35:20):
I was like, oh my God, thatexplains so much when I was in
that meeting and I said that assuch a jerk, it wasn't because I
was a jerk, it's because I waslike feeling all of these things
and I was anxious.
And so you know, that's that'ssome.
You got to go through lifewilling to really look inside.
Jennifer (35:42):
I think so too yeah really look inside yourself.
Barbara (35:46):
Google does a lot of stuff around introspective and
understanding yourself and Ihate it.
I don't like it, but so anyway.
So it's been a complexexistence, but it's a wonderful
one.
Jennifer (36:00):
Yeah, no, that's good that you said all that and I,
you know I get I ask thatquestion every once in a while
and I asked you because I knowyou have the psychology
background is where I reallywanted to ask you that.
I think it is good.
When we go introspective, likewe know, because I do that
sometimes too I get I'm pretty.
I mean I build relationshipspretty easy, but I'm not a
person that I don't have a lotof like friends that I like hang
out with all the time.
(36:20):
I know a lot of people and Ihave no problem having
conversations with people, butI'm okay with stopping it right
there, like I don't need all ofthat around.
And sometimes I can be a directand driven and focused and
people think I'm just walking ontheir shoes and it's not.
I just want to get done what Igot to do.
Before I forget to get it done,I need to get it off and check
it off the list because I got500 things going.
So I can relate to that in somelevels, because people will say
(36:41):
I'm intense and it's not thatI'm being necessarily intense,
it's just I'm.
I got to get a job done.
I got to get from point A topoint B, and if you're not
walking with me then I don'thave time to mess around.
We just got to move.
Barbara (36:53):
Exactly, and that's gotta be okay.
Why do we have to look likeeverybody else in terms of the
person that we are and how weshow up?
Jennifer (37:00):
I've learned in my house.
It's funny because you know,when you have, you know ever
different people, personalitiesin the house, you realize some
of the kids are like yourhusband, some are like you, and
it's funny.
I always joke about thisbecause I know, like you know,
my husband is going to take alittle slower moving from point
A to point B.
I'm like, dude, you're going todo it.
You're not going to do itbecause I'm going to take care
of it.
I'm like I got to get it done,so I can certainly appreciate
(37:23):
what you're saying.
So and I like, I like so.
If our, let's say, our audiencewants to get in touch with you,
they want to keep up, see whatyou're doing, they want to see
what this two rivers in partnersis about, and all of this good
stuff, where do we want to sendthem?
Barbara (37:38):
Well, you know, I got a website it's to
riverspartnerscom, of course,and I'm really active on
LinkedIn.
I love LinkedIn, although I'm alittle bit mad at LinkedIn
right now because they changedtheir algorithm yet again.
And I never find the peoplethat I want.
I follow you.
I'm like what where's Jennifer?
You know or you know so so.
But LinkedIn I'm really active.
(37:59):
I have a newsletter and I'malways posting things, but, yeah
, probably my website andLinkedIn are probably the best
places to locate me.
Jennifer (38:07):
We'll make sure to.
When we get all the, when weget the editor gets all the
bells and whistles on it, we'llget the webpage in there.
Barbara (38:12):
So people know how to find it in there.
Jennifer (38:14):
So, yeah, all right.
Well, I love what you're doing.
I enjoy chatting with you.
I think you're an amazingperson.
You're doing a lot of coolthings and I love that you're
just like still like groovin anddoing your thing and like
loving it, and that's what Ithink is the best about when you
when I say live in.
Extraordinary is that you'rebeing able to call the shots and
decide how you want to liveyour life and do it your way.
Barbara (38:34):
That's right.
Freedom really, and yeah sothank you, thank you for having
me.
I've really enjoyed talking toyou, get great energy, thank you
you too, and, of course, to ouraudience.
Jennifer (38:45):
If you enjoy the show, head on over to Apple.
You can give us a review overthere.
Hit that subscribe button onYouTube so we can keep talking
to all these fabulous people andsharing the stories.
And, as I always say, in orderto live, the extraordinary must
start, and every start beginswith a decision.
You guys, take care, be safe,be kind to one another.
We will see you next time.
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