Ep 104: Conspiracies and the War for Truth with Doug Van Dorn

I sit down with pastor, author, and theologian Doug Van Dorn to explore conspiracy theories through a distinctly Christian lens. From ancient secret societies to modern-day deception, Doug unpacks how spiritual warfare, biblical prophecy, and historical patterns all intersect with today's most controversial ideas. Is there a biblical framework for understanding conspiracies? How should Christians discern truth in a world of misinformation? Join us for a thought-provoking discussion that challenges assumptions and digs deep into the unseen battle between good and evil.
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
M You're here because you know something. What you know
you can't explain, but you feel it. You felt it
your entire life. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Speaker 2 (00:14):
The matrix? I had dreams that weren't just dreams.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
We accept the reality of the world with which we're presented.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
It's as simple as that.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
Billions of people just living out their lives.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Oblivious. They talks. You're good, Hey, do you believe their world?

Speaker 3 (00:52):
You can deny all the things I've seen, all the
things I've discovered, not for once long because too many
others know what's happening on there, and no one, no
government agency, has jurisdiction over the truth.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
Hellon, Welcome to Beyond the Paradigm. I'm your host, Paul Brackel.
Got a fascinating episode for you today with a guest
who have been trying to get on for some time,
but we managed to set this up. My guest today
is Doug van Dorn. Doug is of a similar background
to myself. He's a Christian and is of the Reform tradition.

(01:30):
Doug's a pastor the Reform Baptist Church in Colorado in
the United States, and he's wrote a number of books
including the Five Soulos of the Reformation, Covenant theology. He's
wrote a book on giants Sons of the Gods. It's
a book that I've got on Kindle well worth reading.

(01:51):
And he's wrote another book as well as other ones.
But this other book is what this interview is around today,
and it's a book called Conspiracy Theory, and it's a
Christian evaluation of a taboo subject. And it is a
taboo subject amongst the church, unfortunately, because the word or

(02:13):
phrase conspiracy theory carries with it negative connotations. And in
this episode we get into the reason why that is
and also why it shouldn't carry negative connotations. But just
before we get into the meat of the interview, just
a little bit of housekeeping. Want to welcome two new

(02:34):
members to my Patreon. So first of all, we've got
the Real Gabster and we've also got Shannon Lipke. Both
have signed up to a basic tier of membership. There's
only two tiers, the free tier and the basic tier.
And the reason for that is it's so time consuming
doing this podcast and actually being a father, you know,

(02:58):
a working man, it's very difficult. So I just have
this basic level of membership for those that don't know,
and it's just less than one pounds a month. It's
one dollar, but in English pounds it's less than one pounds,
something like eighty five pence a month, and it just
helps with the costing curd running this podcast. And there

(03:18):
is a number of kind people who have signed up
to that, and that's one way you can support the show.
Another way is you can go on buy me a
coffee and make a one off donation, and as usual,
I leave all the links in the show description. But
the number one way, and I say this every single time,
is to follow the show and leave a rating. I

(03:39):
mean leave a five star rating if you think that
I've earned it. There has been a few people just
over this last week leaving a rating, but in terms
of how many people follow the show and the actual ratings,
they don't correspond at all. So if you could just
take a little bit of time, won't take you much time,
just leave that rating and it'd be very appreciated because

(03:59):
there's so many podcast out there and it just helps
the algorithms makes this show more visible. I am on
social media, in particular Instagram. I do post quite a
few short videos on there and them are also then
posted directly to Facebook because they're both links. If you

(04:19):
don't have Instagram, but you have Facebook, search for me
on there. It's beyond the paradigm. Same name as the podcast.
I have got a Twitter account, but I don't often
go on Twitter because I'm shadow band on there and
don't seem to get anywhere, and there's just a lot
of nonsense on Twitter, and I seem to being targeted.

(04:41):
Now the algorithm has started to push a lot of
pro Roman Catholic news into my newsfeed, and when I
go on it now it's just account after account that
is pro Roman Catholic attacking Protestants, promoting the idolatry of
the Roman Catholic Church, claiming not to be idolators, yet

(05:04):
showing pictures of statues of apparently Mary and all these
relics they love, the relics at the Catholic Church. Has
one recently just appeared in my news feed. Apparently it's
the skull of Mary Magdalene and they've encased it in
this figure and it's a golden figure, and as usual,
people are venerating it. That's what they call it. It's

(05:26):
worshiping it, the worship idols that's what the Roman Catholic
Church do. And if this is the first time you
were on this podcast listening to this episode, the reason
why I'm talking like this, you'll if you go back
and listen to some of my previous episodes that have
done regarding the Jesuits and the Vatican, you'll understand why.

(05:47):
But this episode today is not about that. Hopefully this
is going to be particularly helpful to Christians, but this
podcast is for everybody, so you're all welcome here. And
what I want to do is just before we get
into the interview, is encourage people to think critically and
do not be bothered about what people think. Don't care

(06:10):
what people think about the things you believe or the
things you say. Stand up for what you're believe in,
and don't let people bully you. Because what you'll find
in workplaces, for example, they all pretty much think and
say the same things. They'll claim to be critical thinkers,

(06:30):
but they're not because they don't think about anything really
apart from whether they're going out drinking on the weekend,
what pub they're going to go to first, or whether
they're going to get a takeaway. And that is the
sad reality of conversations with average people on a daily basis.
They have zero critical thinking skills whatsoever. Most of them

(06:51):
still think that the COVID situation was real. They still
think nineteen Arab hijackers committed the atrocities of September the eleventh.
They still believe that we landed people on the moon
when the technology wasn't even advanced like it is today,
as in, you have more technology in your pocket than

(07:14):
they add back then. And what I mean by that
is your mobile phone is far more powerful than the
technology they add back in the sixties. So what I
would do just before bringing Doug onto the show is
say this, if you're a Christian, be bold, be strong
for the Lord, your God is with you. So that's

(07:34):
enough talk from me, and without further ado, I'm gonna
go and bring Doug onto the show. Well, it's a
pleasure for the first time, Doug, to welcome you to
Beyond the Paradigm. So welcome and thanks very much for
giving me a time.

Speaker 4 (07:48):
Absolutely, Paul, great to be on here with a fellow
reform guy actually wanting to talk about this stuff.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
Yeah, definitely, definitely. Yeah. I think in terms of being
Christians then reformed and also conspiracy theorists. We're in a
niche sort of it's very niche. Yeah, so yeah, So
I would imagine that a lot of my listeners have
probably listened to some of the podcasts you've done, maybe

(08:15):
familiar with some of your work. But just for those
people who aren't, because it's the first time you're on,
just give us a little bit of background and just
tell us a little bit about what you're actually doing. Now.

Speaker 4 (08:27):
Sure, Well, I'm I'm a full time pastor in a
reform Baptist church in Colorado located near Boulder, Colorado, which
is kind of like Hippieville, and they're very liberal and
like that. That's just what it's known for. We've done
that for twenty three years. I guess pastoring that we

(08:48):
started the church as a church plant, and God has
just blessed it and continues to do that. So I
guess on the side, I've over the course of years,
as I started reading more about the really the Divine
Council stuff from doctor Michael Heiser, I started writing some
books on that, and people started wanting to have me

(09:08):
come on and talk about giants and the Angel of
the Lord and stuff like that. In twenty twenty, I
wrote this book on conspiracy theories. I had actually tried
to write this book like ten different times and nothing
came out. It was probably the first two weeks of COVID,
and I had the thing written in about seven days.
It was really crazy.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Wow. Yeah, I'm in the process of writing a book,
but it's taken me a lot longer than seven days.

Speaker 5 (09:35):
Oh yeah, that was that was very unique.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
I mean, I do it in fits and spurts. I'm
writing some weeks and then other weeks, I don't do anything.

Speaker 5 (09:44):
At all exactly.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
So yeah, so it but I'll get there in the end,
I hope. So. Yeah, So you've mentioned your book about
conspiracy theory. So there's obviously this phrase conspiracy theory, and
there's with the negative connotations to that. So I've talked
a little bit about it on air before, but I

(10:08):
would just want you to sort of elaborate on it
why it seemed sort of as being negative, and then
why we shouldn't be sort of frightened of, you know,
being sort of labeled as conspiracy theorists.

Speaker 5 (10:24):
It's a great question.

Speaker 4 (10:26):
A lot of people don't realize that the origin of
the word conspiracy theory comes really from jurisprudence, I guess
in the late eighteen hundreds, so you start finding it
cropping up on Google Ingram, not like, I don't know, eighteen.

Speaker 5 (10:41):
Eighty or something like that.

Speaker 4 (10:44):
Yeah, So the whole idea of a conspiracy theory is
a phrase A lot of people don't know, but it
really has its origins kind of in the late eighteen
hundreds in American the court system, really and they were
using that phrase as a way to simply talk about
somebody who was doing something wrong, so it wasn't used
pejoratively at all.

Speaker 5 (11:05):
That came really in the.

Speaker 4 (11:07):
Nineteen sixties and seventies with something called the Warren Commission,
which was basically run by the CIA as an operation
to kind of stop people from thinking about who might
have actually killed John F. Kennedy in the assassination. And

(11:27):
they actually wrote in the Warren Commission that they like
used this phrase. Then they demonized the phrase, and then
they started putting that out publicly, dissemining it really through
the media, I think, to cause this to be a
phrase that it really becomes a thought stopper, where if
you're a conspiracy theorist, then you shouldn't even pay attention

(11:48):
to anything that those people are saying or thinking, because
they're all crazy and nutty. And you know, that's just
the way that we've now inherited the language for and
fifty years or whatever. So the phrase was never used
that way badly in the first place, but it came
to be used that way, and in my opinion, and thankfully,

(12:09):
we actually have some documents that are starting to come
out of this now. When I first started writing about that,
you know that in the book, that was still a
conspiracy theory, like the origin of the CIA, you know,
demonizing the phrase was its alf a conspiracy theory. But
it's becoming more and more well known and true, and
in my opinion, it's something that people should not be

(12:30):
afraid of at all, because frankly, in fact, I found
a couple of scholarly books about this, written about early
American history and how people who would think about conspiracies
were actually the freethinkers. They weren't like the slaves of
the day. They were the people who who were allowed

(12:51):
to think freely, and it was viewed as a good thing.
And so it's like we've seen a one point eighty
done this on this phrase in our day, and you know,
I think there's a lot of reasons why that's the case,
but that's kind of the origin of the phrase.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
Yeah, I mean, they've done a real job on it,
because you know, I mean I obviously have a regular
job as well as doing this, and you sometimes hear
people at work going on about, oh, you know, conspiracy theorists,
and I've said to people in past, I've gone, well,
do you even know what you're talking about? When when
you talk about that phrase like conspiracy theory and you

(13:27):
break it down because the reality is conspiracies happen. I mean,
it can be something as simple as I don't know,
two people, two people at work, for example, one of
them they get their heads together and they go, well,
you leave early today and I'll cover for you and
then tomorrow you do it. Something so simple as that.
But obviously we're talking conspiracies that get much bigger than that.

(13:50):
And I've said to people in pastif since you do not
really think that there's actual conspiracies that you know, go
on and when you make people think, you can sort
of see the cold going around them, but they just
regurgitate in the phrase. They don't really think and like
you mentioned, well, basically what you mentioned were were critical thinkers,
and how really that's what it is. Before the CIA

(14:12):
got hold of the term, it was really critical thinkers
who were conspiracy theories who didn't just accept the sort
of narrative, the official narrative. Now your book has a
subtitle and the subtitle a Christian evaluation of a taboo subject.
So why do you think conspiracy theories are often seen

(14:32):
as taboo within the church?

Speaker 4 (14:35):
Well, I think it's actually for the same reason, and
it shouldn't be that way, because I spent quite a
bit of time talking about conspiracies in the Bible. I mean,
you go back to the Garden of Edening, you find
the first conspiracy that there is. And what's a conspiracy?
Like you said, it's just an act of conspiring together,
or it's some sort of a plot that one it

(14:56):
could even be one person, two more, you know, whatever
they have against somebody who's in authority usually and so
then they're trying to do something evil and all the
word theory is like, you can put a theory in
a bad term, in a bad light, but it can
also put it in a good light. You know, when
we talk about scientific theories. Those are just hypothesis that
you try and test, which is why originally the whole

(15:19):
phrase was not It wasn't a negative phrase at all,
And those are two perfectly good words to put together.
But when you demonize those words and then that gets
into the popular language of the culture, then I think
what has happened is Christians is just kind of breathed
that air for so long that they themselves never started

(15:39):
questioning why it might not necessarily be a bad thing.
Everything they hear about it everywhere they go is negative.
And then I think that they just really don't stop
and think about the scripture itself as having conspiracies all
over the place, like we're supposed to be people that
believe in we're supposed to be people that believe in depravity,

(16:03):
and that people aren't basically good by their very nature.
So you would think, right that, as a Christian holding
that people are sinful, that yeah, maybe there can actually
be conspiracies out there that people might want to perpetrate
on others.

Speaker 5 (16:19):
But that's the best guess that I have. I don't know,
what do you think?

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah, I mean, the thing that shocked me really, I
don't know why I should have been shocked, to be
honest with it was obviously the plandemic twenty twenty. Our
church is just closed down, even my own, and the
fact that they just Romans thirteen was being banded around
like as if that's the only part of the Bible
that talks about anything at all. And the reality is

(16:44):
they didn't read the part where it says for sake,
not the meeting of yourselves together. And they're just trusting
this government, knowing that people are corrupt by nature, that
the heart is deceitful, and that out of the heart
come blasphemies, mer is lyeing all that sort of stuff,
knowing that politicians lie and lie all the time anyway,

(17:07):
Yet they just trusted that this invisible enemy was out there,
because that's what it is, was invisible. No one probably
would have even known we was in a global pandemic
except they told us on the television, because I certainly
didn't see anything. I know that flu disappeared surprisingly, but yeah,

(17:29):
I mean, I just I was just shocked at how
I mean, I know there was a number of churches
over where you are in the States. I know John
MacArthur's church. They start meeting again, but I don't remember
any over here, and I was really disappointed with how
flakey and pathetic the churches worthy, no backbone at all,

(17:53):
and I just thought, yeah, they already evangelical with an
emphasis on the jelly, because they have jelly. It's just
I think to myself, you've got these Eastern people in
the in the East, in Asia and places like Christian's
facing martyrdom every day, and as soon as we're told, oh,
you've got a closing churches down, it's just like yeah, okay,
like no resistance whatsoever and whatsoever.

Speaker 5 (18:17):
That's exactly right.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
It's just shocking, and I think that I think that
was a sad indictment of the state of the Western Church,
in my opinion. And I think it was obviously the
Lord we know is being reformed, that he's sovereign in
everything that even the bad things that go on, we
know that the devil's the god of this world, but

(18:39):
ultimately he's still restricted in what he can do. But
I think it was a little bit of a test
as well for the Western Church too, and to actually
show us, listen, this is how weak you actually are.
You'll just you'll just give in at the first sign
of any pressure this ship. You know, I mean I
get it. You know, the wood been pastors who probably

(19:02):
had do you kept the churches open? They were the
ones that would have been in the firing line, and
probably not the congregants. I get that. And I can
sit here and you know, say things, but I think
I think it's high time, especially in the West, that
we realized that we've had it good for such a
long time that this could easily be taken away from us.

Speaker 4 (19:23):
Yeah, which is part of the larger conspiracy theory behind
everything that took place in COVID, that they actually were
trying to take a lot of things away from us.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
Oh yeah, one hundred percent. I mean, obviously you wrote that,
but what what was your inspiration for and what was
sort of your core message that you was hoping to
sort of communicate to your readers.

Speaker 5 (19:45):
Well, I mean the inspiration was COVID.

Speaker 4 (19:49):
Honestly, I had I had thought about writing this many
times and it just never happened. And I guess that
was in God's providence. I mean, you try and write
something and nothing can that.

Speaker 5 (20:00):
You just kind of give up.

Speaker 4 (20:01):
And you know, when we first sat our lockdowns here,
we closed down for a couple of weeks, I think,
and then I just needed time to evaluate it what.

Speaker 5 (20:10):
I thought was happening.

Speaker 4 (20:10):
And I took a pretty deep dive right away on
some things, and I decided, I want, I think it's
time for this thing to come out, and it did,
my God's grace and my main message and it wasn't
actually to sit there and talk about all the conspiracy
theories of COVID or anything like that, because even at
that time we didn't really know. It was more just

(20:32):
trying to get people to understand that we need to
be thinking about governments that can be evil. And when
you have this phrase conspiracy theory, sure there are you know,
there are negative consequences of always thinking about, you know,
conspiracies everywhere you go, and I write about some of those.

(20:54):
But there's also consequences to not thinking about conspiracies, because
if somebody really does mean you harm and you absolutely
refuse to believe that they mean you harm, then they're
most likely just going to kill you and it's not
gonna be any problem at all. So I just wanted
people to think, you know, it's I tried to make
it as timeless of a book as I could.

Speaker 5 (21:16):
Just getting people.

Speaker 4 (21:17):
To recognize this that there's a problem here and we
need to really address address what the problem is through
this phrase that is a taboo subject.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yeah, well there's a definite problem and people, let's face it,
they are to killos ultimately, they are. I mean I
was listening to a podcast earlier on which you was
interviewed on and the Georgia guidestones came up in that, like,
oh yeah, and that is like, I mean, I know

(21:49):
they got destroyed and obviously there's a conspiracy theory around
that and everything, but the fact that it was on
them guidestones about the population being reduced down to sort
of half a billion, and then you look at all
the things like vaccination program, abortion or there's all, there's
all things linking into this depopulation agenda, and wasn't I

(22:12):
think it was like a pseudonym of the person who
was the constructor of the guidestones was like or I
see Christian or something. And you think what they're trying
to say here, like it's not just it's not just
a joke, like like they're sort of telling us like Hollywood,
for example, I mean, do you do you think that

(22:35):
I mean, I think this, But let's see if you agree.
Do you think that a lot of these films or
some films are created and they're telling us things in
advance what they're going to do. Because my understanding of
these people's religion, these Luciferian elite, whatever you want to
call them, is that they have to tell us beforehand.
I mean, what's your take on that.

Speaker 5 (22:57):
I do think. I do think that there is.

Speaker 4 (22:59):
And the reason why I think that Hollywood does this
is because Hollywood is pretty well known by the at
this point that Hollywood was you know, its origins were
at the very least used very early on, even in
World War two days to create propaganda in order to
in order to cause people to get support to go

(23:22):
to war, at.

Speaker 5 (23:23):
Least in the United States.

Speaker 4 (23:24):
And so like they've known for a long long time
the power that the moving film has over people's minds.
And I mean that Rabbit Holes is deep and dark
as you want to go at that place, and so
I do I do think. You know, you hear things

(23:44):
like it's the code of these Illuminati and these elites
and these Satanists and stuff like that, that they have
to tell you what they're doing before they actually do it.
I don't know if that's true one hundred percent, but
I see no reason why I should not believe it.
And if that is true, and then you look at
what Hollywood is just on the surface of what it is,

(24:05):
the kinds of garbage that they the garbage that they
increasingly put out, and I mean, it just kind of
goes hand in hand.

Speaker 5 (24:11):
So I very much believe that that's true.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, I mean, during the research that I've done on
sort of Hollywood. I mean, I'm not saying I've gone
like really deep on it, but I've read stuff and
I've spoken to people, and with regards to telling us,
it seems to be that they believe that, well, it's
like bad karma type thing. If they tell us first,

(24:36):
then it's not going to come back on then that
because if they tell us and we don't heed the warning,
then we're sort of complicit in it, and they're now
not guilty.

Speaker 4 (24:47):
Exactly, which is ridiculous because they hide everything that they're
doing in plain sight. It's not like they come out
and just tell you. I mean, it's so cryptic and ridiculous.
The only way you could ever know is by looking
back on it, you know.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah, well it is cryptic because if you if you're
a person who notices things and you know a little
bit about symbolism, you may have done a bit of
research or whatever. If you tell people, say in your
family or some of your friends, they just look at
you like you're crazy anyway, So like like you're saying,
they're not. They're not telling us plainly. So it's like, well,

(25:21):
what are they trying to do? So with regards to
the Bible, so what sort of text and stories do
you think are most directly showing the conspiracies and not
just sort of modern ideas, like but they're actually sort
of part of the human story from the beginning.

Speaker 4 (25:41):
Yeah, I mean, like I said, you can go back
to you can go back to the Garden of Eden,
where there's this creature, this heavenly being that conspires against
our first parents to cause them to sin and to
fall into evil. And I think that that's particularly important
because it shows that there's a supernatural component to conspiracy

(26:03):
theories that has been with us from the very beginning.
So like you can go and read in the books
of the Kings and chronicles and stuff, you can see
all the conspiracies that take place over and over in
the different courts of the kings, and one guy conspired
to kill him, and then the next guy comes the king,
and then they conspire to kill each other. And there
were conspiracy theory, not conspiracy theory, but conspiracy. It occurs

(26:25):
all the time in those particular books. But that's just
just the human level, and there's plenty of that. What
happens when you add this supernatural level, and so, you know,
I think about things like probably the two other big
examples would be the Genesis sixth story that I've written
so much, so much about with giants, that there was
a conspiracy with heavenly beings against earthly beings to try

(26:49):
and in my opinion, make it impossible for the seed
promise of Genesis three fifteen, where God curses the serpent,
you know, and he says that that there will be
this seed war between his offspring and the woman's offspring,
and that he will try and crush the head of
the woman's seed, but that her seed will eventually crush

(27:11):
his head, you know. So it seems like that was
at least part of what was going on in the
Genesis sixth story that ends up causing God to destroy
the entire earth because of how wicked and everything had become. Well,
that was a conspiracy. You're going to read the text
of Enoch and it just says right out that they
swore an oath and bound themselves by a curse that

(27:34):
if they didn't do this, then you know, they should
be punished forever.

Speaker 5 (27:38):
And of course the greatest.

Speaker 4 (27:39):
Conspiracy of all time would be the conspiracy to kill
Jesus by the Jewish authorities and leaders. And it's very
interesting to me, Paul, when you think about the way
that the Gospels tell that story about how Satan enters
Judas in order to cause him to turn on you know,

(28:02):
his savior, or at least his master. You see that
Satan is trying to sift Peter like wheat, and you
find all this, you know, just satanic imagery going on.
That's just the death of Christ. And then what happens
when Jesus rises from the dead, Well, the Jewish leaders
plot about a lie to say that, well, they just

(28:23):
stole the body in the middle of the night, instead
of the resurrection actually happening.

Speaker 5 (28:30):
And it's funny to me.

Speaker 4 (28:31):
I like to tell people this, I like to point
it out to them that with something like that, the
conspiracy theory is actually the resurrection.

Speaker 5 (28:41):
So if you're a Christian, you have to understand that.

Speaker 4 (28:43):
And why you go, wait a minute, are you saying
Jesus didn't rise to the dead. No, that's not what
I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that the
Jews are the ones who had the political power of
the day. They're the ones who are able to tell
the narrative, and so therefore their narrative, even though it
was wrong, became the main stream narrative.

Speaker 5 (29:00):
They stole the body.

Speaker 4 (29:01):
So that means that any other narrative that comes along,
like a resurrection, by definition, is a conspiracy theory, and
so conspiracy that that right there. Kind of I like
to do that to discombobulate people to go, well, I
wait a minute, and then also to show that, look,
conspiracy theories can actually be true, because the resurrection is
absolutely the most important event that's ever happened in the

(29:23):
history of the world. But conspiracy theory, conspiracy is all
over that story of Jesus death and resurrection.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
Like you said, totally agree with you. If you believe
in the resurrection, you're actually believing in the conspiracy theory
even though we know it's a fact because yeah, they
did have the official narrative. So, you know, for Christians
who are doubtful of conspiracy theories, and I find that
particularly within the reform circles. I don't know whether you

(30:25):
find the same thing that people just they don't want
to hear things to do with this, you know, or
especially you know, bring up giants. There's not many people
within the reform circles that believe in literal giants. I'd
say we're probably a minority. A lot of people sort
of go down the Cephite line in my opinion. So so,

(30:51):
like I said to you just before, like in terms
of being Christians, conspiracy theorists, and being reformed, it's a tiny,
tiny minority. I mean, one of one of the one
of the areas that I sort of want to touch
on really is is to and this is to help Christians.

(31:11):
So how how do you distinguish between sort of a
healthy skepticism as opposed to falling into sort of paranoia
or into misinformation.

Speaker 4 (31:25):
Well that's where I think that you need to you
need to be objective about what conspiracy theories can do
to you and what and what not.

Speaker 5 (31:34):
Thinking about them can also do to you, you know
what I mean.

Speaker 4 (31:37):
So like, if you obsess about conspiracies all the time,
for example, you could have that become the only thing
that you think about and you stop over time.

Speaker 5 (31:48):
You know, it could even happen to reform people.

Speaker 4 (31:50):
You You become so obsessive about it that you start worrying,
You start having anxiety problems, you start being able to
note anything through a lens of conspiracy that you know,
you become kind of almost schizophrenic. You can drop off
God's sovereignty and providence over all of this world kind

(32:11):
of at the door because you're so obsessed with this
stuff that it just kind of wrecks your mind. And
I had acknowledged that those things are true. I've known
people that are like that.

Speaker 5 (32:25):
You know.

Speaker 4 (32:25):
I when you when you talk about conspiracy theories and
you're actually open about it, you get some people coming
to you that want to know questions and want to
kind of hang around you, and and you know, all
those kinds of things who have gone, in my opinion,
too far. Not that it's wrong to think about anyone
per se, but it's like it just becomes this thing

(32:45):
that it just takes over who they are as a person,
and that's not good.

Speaker 5 (32:49):
That's you know, that's that's not the.

Speaker 4 (32:51):
Way that the Gospel is supposed to influence our lives.
And you know, let's say in that case, the Gospel
is not influencing our lives at all. But on the
other hand, not thinking about conspiracies, like we also said,
can be just as damaging to people. And not just
because if people are thinking evil thoughts against you and

(33:12):
they want to harm you, but.

Speaker 5 (33:15):
What does that do.

Speaker 4 (33:16):
For your kind of your base understanding of what human
beings are in terms of our depravity, our sin nature.
If every single time a conspiracy theory comes up and
you're like, nope, can't possibly being you just shut your
brain at the door, does that have any influence on
the way that you actually start thinking about human depravity?

(33:37):
I actually think that it does, And maybe that's one
of the reasons why we've kind of become a church
full of cowards. When it comes to standing up against
tyranny in our day and age, you just have to
think logically about it, That's what I'm saying. You have
to allow your mind to acknowledge that this is something
that you can think rationally about that there are there's

(34:01):
good things, there's bad things, and just think about it
instead of just instead of just throwing anything away, including
the phrase itself. That's what I want people to do.
That's I mean, that's really all. That's the point of
the book.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
Yeah, I mean you mentioned obviously human depravity, and you know,
as certainly amongst the reform can we tend to have
I believe, a better understanding of it. Some evangelical churches
you sort of get the opinion that, well, people aren't
that bad, but we are. I mean from the soul

(34:38):
of our you know, from the sole of our feet
to the top of our head, nothing but wounds, it
bruises and putrefying. So as that's the description that's given.
And then so it's not surprising to me when like
we talked about Hollywood and then you know, you hear
about the things that go on with children there and

(34:59):
then human trafficking, child sex trafficking, Jeffrey Epstein and all
that stuff that we're going on, and some people can't
accept that that it's actually going on. I mean, I've
talked to people in past and it's just like, no,
that's not even possible. And it's like, well, it is,
it is possible, and it's not just possible, it's actually

(35:20):
going on. I mean the levels. I don't think people
fully grasp the level of evil that's actually at work
in this world. I mean, the Bible talks about the
depths of Satan, but I think within this sort of
environment that wor in that you've got these conspiracy theorist

(35:41):
people who talk about they've been red pilled and things
like that. One of the deceptions, I believe, is that
they talk about this external evil all the time, that
the evil it's out there, But the.

Speaker 5 (35:53):
Problem is.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
Yes, because the problem is it is in within the
heart and that what they missing, And that's the massive deception.
You know, you fighting against this these bad guys, these
elites who are trying to kill us, and these people
who were stealing children and doing all kinds of things
to him. But I'm okay, but the reality is not okay.

Speaker 5 (36:18):
I couldn't agree more with that.

Speaker 4 (36:20):
You know, there's a whole world of in the conspiracy
theory called Q of people who kind of take this
incredibly rosy, almost like a secular millennialist view that that
we're fighting this deep state and we're fighting the human trafficking,
and we're going to usher in this golden age. You
even see a guy like Trump, who quite honestly, I

(36:42):
love most of the stuff he's doing, but he talks
about how he's gonna he literally uses the phrase golden age.

Speaker 5 (36:47):
I'm ushering in the Golden Age. I mean, it's like.

Speaker 4 (36:51):
There's there's a serious denial that that human sin is
inside of my heart. If you think that you're gonna
be able to do what only Jesus can do, so yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:02):
Yeah, one. And I think I think, like, I think
there's like a sort of false light deception going on
as well, because if you like, like, you get these
people who, yeah, we're fighting, like you said, against the
deep state, and we're against them. Therefore were the good guys, Well, no,
you're not. You're just being duped as well by say

(37:24):
and he's using you as well as puppets.

Speaker 5 (37:28):
You know.

Speaker 4 (37:29):
I think about the king Jerobaum and some of these
other kings. You know, it's with Jerobom that kind of
starts off. He starts corrupting the nature of worship, and
then by some of the some of the kings of Judah,
you start getting you know, a has and a have
with these guys. They're like actually sacrificing their children in

(37:49):
the fire to Moleck, and it's like, how you hear
you think about how could you get that that far
down the line where where you would do something like that,
And yet you know, I kind of would I guess
my opinion would be, did these kings actually think that
they were that evil for what they were doing? Or

(38:12):
did they actually kind of justify what they're doing and
maybe even put a Jewish kind of godly context over
what they were doing to try and justify and make
it sound like, yeah, this is perfectly fine. It's only
when you get the prophets framing what they're doing as
a totally horrific evil that you're able to see the stark,
black and white reality of what these kings were doing.

(38:33):
And it's like, you really think that human nature has
changed When the very kings of Israel, who were supposed
to be the stewards of everything good and righteous about
religion as it was given under the Old Covenant could
do this, you think that we're going to be any different?

Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yeah, I heard a sermon. I listened to Dotor Martin
Lloyd John's sermons on spotify. A lot of them are
on there, and he was talking in one of them
were basically saying the same thing that human beings are
the same now that there were thousands of years ago.

(39:11):
They go to war now, whereas back then in biblical times,
they went to war on horses. Now we go to
war in tanks. But they're still going to war, do
you know what I mean? The people still get married.
The ceremonies might be slightly different. The bride might have
been taken to a ceremony on a camel whereas now

(39:32):
she's driven in a car, but there's no difference. It's
just that we've got different stuff, but people are still
the same.

Speaker 4 (39:42):
Adding to the war, thing that I don't think a
lot of people understand is the whole idea of the
evolution of warfare. You know, you brought that up between
kind of early first generation warfare. You know, you're just
kind of fighting with spears and stuff. You add horses,
then you add you might add the firing you know,
like a firing weapon, like a gun or whatever. Then

(40:03):
you add tanks and stuff like that. But then but
then warfare really starts to change after World War Two,
where you start getting terrorist kind of warfare, subversive kind
of warfare, and today the militaries of the world openly
discuss fifth generational warfare, which is warfare of words and
ideas that are perpetrated by governments over entire populations. You know,

(40:28):
that kind of goes back to the Hollywood thing again.
Can they use those things? Yes, they do use this thing.
They openly tell you that they use those things, and
they're actually committing a form of warfare that's more nefarious
and evil than anything else, because this is a war
on your mind and you don't even know that it's
happening to you.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah. I did an episode on fifth generation warfare, and
I also did one on the Tavastock Institute, And if
people want to know about this type of warfare, they
need to research the Tavistock Institute. Not to be confused
with the Tavostock Clinic, but Tavostock has touched every single
one of us around the world, whether we know it

(41:07):
or not, They've had some kind of influence in our lives.
And i'd encourage people. You know, there's books out there
about Tavistock Institute. I've done an episode on it, and
i'd encourage people to read about that and obviously look
more into Fifth Generation WARF And you mentioned information because
this is an information war. It's just that simple.

Speaker 4 (41:28):
Isn't it funny that Alex Jones like starts his show
called info Wars and then he becomes this target of
you know, one of the main attacks of the other
side to make him sound like he's completely totally looney
and in saying you should never listen to anything the
guy says. And the reality is that, I mean, he's
he's he's definitely got his personality, no doubt about it,

(41:52):
but he's not what people have painted him out to
be and.

Speaker 5 (41:55):
Not right there.

Speaker 4 (41:56):
It's kind of that's a definition of info Wars against
the guy who's fighting info Wars, it's wild man.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
Yeah yeah, yeah, oh yeah, definitely. And you know, I
mean it's like doing podcasts, like there's more of us
doing them now and we're engaged in this war that
you know, there's there's the elite or whatever you want
to call them. They've got the money behind them and
the big corporations. But all we can do is sort
of get more of us doing these podcasts, right, you.

Speaker 5 (42:27):
Know, just get very grassroots I think, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
Just keep going. I mean, I encourage people. If there's
anyone going to be listening to this episode who's thought
about doing it, I'd say do it. I started this
two years ago and didn't have a clue what I
was doing and had to learn that, you know, And
by the grace of God, I've managed to get guests
on who've done loads of research, like yourself, And now

(42:53):
I think I've got listeners in one hundred and forty
one countries and that's from a standing start, so it
can be on and the more of us doing it
the better. Especially I want Christians in this circle because
a lot of the podcasts that you listen to they
say some good things, but the very New Age as well,

(43:14):
because you just start talking a lot about New Age
and they talk about Christ's consciousness. I hear a lot
of them talking about that, and it's unfortunate, but we
need we need more Christians involved as far as I'm concerned.
I wanted to get some of your thoughts on particular things.
So like secret societies is a big thing, Freemasons, scullum bores,

(43:38):
build a bird group, do you like, Like obviously there's
you know, people talk about freemations and they're involved in everything.
And then skull and Bones. I think that's in the
United States, and you've got presidents that come out of
that and build a bird group. But what do you
think the reality is concerning these groups? Are they really
what they made out to be or are they you know,

(44:00):
should we be that concerned about? And what do you think?

Speaker 5 (44:04):
A huge question? So I do tend to think that.

Speaker 4 (44:12):
That people have gone after these secret society groups for
good reasons. I don't know that everything about what they
do and say is should be demonized. Nothing should be
that way, Like there's good and bad in just about everything,
but the whole point of being secret society. And then

(44:35):
when you when you combine that with so many of
these groups with kind of their religious over underpinnings, I
guess where they mix together. It's almost like what you
just said with the New Age, Like they'll mixed together Christianity,
ancient Egyptian religions, ancient Babylonian religions, and they put it
into this hodgepodge thing, this melting pot thing, like that's

(44:59):
not good that And to me, that's very much a
spirit of what Babbel ultimately is.

Speaker 5 (45:03):
And I actually I have a.

Speaker 4 (45:07):
Tendency to think that these at least some of these
groups are coming out of probably ancient Babylonian religion, and
so yeah, I do think that there's something that people
should take seriously, that should at least be aware that
there are secret groups that do control an awful lot
of power in this world. I have an awful lot

(45:30):
of money, and you know, at least then't need to
know that they're there. Should you obsess about it? Again,
I guess kind of what we were talking about a
little bit earlier. No, you shouldn't obsess about it. But
to not know about it, or to think that it's
all just fake is it's equally problematic in my mind.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
How do you think Christians should respond to things like
sort of increase surveillance like and digital ID like they're
talking about that, and you know, like digital currencies and
artificial intelligence. What do you think Cora responds to things
like that?

Speaker 5 (46:03):
Should be That's a great, great question.

Speaker 4 (46:06):
I look at those kind of two different questions, although
they're obviously interrelated. So what I wish that Christians would
do less of is take everything that's in that realm
and immediately attach it to the Book of revelation and
say that we're now fulfilling everything in revelation and the

(46:26):
rapture is going to come in like, you know, three
days from now.

Speaker 5 (46:29):
I wish we'd do less of that, and I wish
that we would.

Speaker 4 (46:32):
Do more just thinking philosophically about the ramifications on almost
a metaphysical level of what things like AI even are
you know, even not just say I, but how we
got here? Like what I often wonder like what are
we doing when we even are using Zoom and we're

(46:53):
using computers and we're using this Windows interface like that,
I was thinking about this other Windows. Well that's that's
a very interesting way to terminize you know, what what
it is that you're doing when you're interfacing.

Speaker 5 (47:08):
With a computer like that's a door waste language? You
know what are are?

Speaker 4 (47:12):
We are we actually I don't know, hijacking or using
a means of communication that belongs to another realm uh
you know, I don't know. I just wish that we
would think more metaphysically about that kind of stuff, because
I think it would help us as Christians to be
able to instead of turn everything apocalyptic, we could say,

(47:35):
all right, well, maybe there's some good things that are here,
so maybe some bad things that are here. We could
be a little bit more rational about it, a little
bit less to say it's everything is like you know,
newspaper eschatology like that, like I like to call it.

Speaker 5 (47:48):
You read the latest thing in the daily paper or
your blog or you know, whatever your.

Speaker 4 (47:54):
Internet source of news is, and then you're like, Okay, yeah,
that's fulfilling, fulfilling revelation.

Speaker 5 (47:59):
Like I just I've had enough of that, but I
haven't had.

Speaker 4 (48:02):
Anywhere near enough of people actually thinking about what is
going on in our world, Like is digital money necessarily
a bad thing? I don't think it necessarily is a
bad thing. It could be a very safe way of
controlling people's assets that couldn't be stolen if you could,
if you could get it was a word like cryptotized

(48:27):
or whatever. Good enough, But what do we do in
our minds? We like, immediately go to six sixty six,
the mark of the Beast, and so therefore it's got
to be evil, Like that's just that's kind of like just.

Speaker 5 (48:37):
Turning your brain off.

Speaker 4 (48:38):
I think a little bit a little bit too soon
at least, could those things have something to do with
the end of time?

Speaker 5 (48:45):
Yeah? I think that maybe they could have something to
do at the end of time. It's we're living in
weird days. But I don't know.

Speaker 4 (48:52):
That's just some of my thoughts. As you asked me
the question, I'm curious what you think about that question.

Speaker 2 (49:28):
For me, like digital currency, the problem with it is
is that it's not really money. It becomes sort of tokens,
and in that way it can be controlled, and if
it's not in your hands, it doesn't belong to you
because it could be deleted, it could be frozen. That's
my problem with it. Like I use cash as much

(49:53):
as I can, pretty much ninety five percent of the time.
The only time I'll probably not use cash is if
I find myself somewhere in a shop and I've for
some reason not got any on me, which is usually
not the case. I can see the digital idea and
all this, I can see sort of a control mechanism

(50:17):
behind that. Because of my dim view towards human beings,
because we know what they are, I don't. I don't
like it, I mean, and the reasons that's gonna probably
tell us we need it will be a lie as well.
And there's going to be something I mean, one of

(50:37):
the things that I've been thinking of recently. I recently
did an episode I think it was my last one.
I did one about the Great Blackout Conspiracy, and the
reason for it was there was the blackout on the
Iberian Peninsula in Portugal and Spain, and there seems to
be things going on like that, and there's been other
ones around the world, and just recently the London Underground

(51:01):
was offline as well. The website went down, there was
no trend running and I think to myself, are they
stress testing, Yeah, to see whether you know how we're
going to react, because I think to bring some of
these things in, there's going to have to be come
some something happens, and maybe it will be a blackout.

(51:23):
I don't know. I mean, I don't know what you
think about that.

Speaker 5 (51:27):
No, I think, well, I think that we are headed
towards an inevitability. Unfortunately, you know.

Speaker 4 (51:32):
I think we're in a war, and I think there's
two sides of a war, and I think both sides
of the war want us to move away from the
form of currency that we have today. And I think
I think that that's also for two different reasons. But
I I don't want to put it both in like,
I don't want to put it as one is purely
evil one is purely good, because I don't think that

(51:53):
that's the case. I'm not sure about the people that
I would think are good, Like they might have noble intentions,
but like we've been talking about, people are depraved, and
so will that eventually be what it is? I mean,
I have my serious doubts about that. But then I
also look at things like, at least in the United States,

(52:15):
this is especially a problem with US, Paul, because we
have the ability with the Federal Reserve and having the
dollar be kind of the world's currency, we can print
as much money as we want. The dollar bill is
utterly worthless. There is nothing backing that thing. It's just
being printed out of FIAT. So I look at that
and I'm like, well, in some ways, that's not really

(52:36):
different than having a you know, a crypto that's not
rooted in anything.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
Either.

Speaker 5 (52:40):
We're in a real mess right now.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
M yeah, yeah, I mean it's not like I've talked.
I've talked about obviously money fiat currency on are before,
and obviously this reserve fractional reserve banking, and like you said,
it is work. There's no intrinsic value in them. Not
It's not like there's a pile of gold that's yours.

(53:04):
Like what banking sort of came from when you you
know you, you gave you gold over and then they
gave you the notes. It's not actually like that anymore.
They just they just I've said to people in the past,
actually I've said as far as over here anyway. I mean,
it's probably the same in the States, I said, but
it will only take eleven percent of the people to

(53:26):
want the actual cash out of the bank for the
banks to crash because you're only holding ten percent percent.
That's such some chills down people's spines that who's got
a lot of money in the bank.

Speaker 4 (53:38):
That's that the last couple of years of banks failing
and people wanting to take the money out.

Speaker 5 (53:44):
Yeah, yeah, I agree.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
We had it over here in the nineties. There was
a called Northern Rock Bank, and I remember seeing it
on the news, queues and cues of people, and a
lot of them didn't get the money because they just
ran out. And then there was there was Cyprus. It
happened in Cyprus where they didn't do bailouts, they did
bail ins and obviously for people who don't know what

(54:06):
a bailing is, it's using your money that's in the
bank to get the bank out of trouble. So they're
taking your money. I say to people, when when you
look at your balance, when you look at them numbers
on the screen, don't look at that as being the
money you have. Look at that as being the money
that the bank owe you. Because they don't actually have it,

(54:31):
they owe it you, so you know. So, I mean,
I'm not a financial advisor, but I would certainly encourage
people to get some tangible assets.

Speaker 4 (54:41):
And because I mean, even if they do go to crypto,
I don't think that tangible assets will ever go away
because there will always be people that are trying to
fight against that system. And so trade your goal, trade
your silver, trade your change, your bullets, you know, whatever
the form of currency happens to be.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
Yeah, hundred percent. So so obviously we've been talking a
little bit there about blackouts and money and whatever. What.
I know, this is a difficult question, and you haven't
got a crystal ball, but obviously you're observing the world.
You're the pastor, you've been a Christian for a lot
of years, you know, and exercising wisdom, looking at the

(55:21):
scriptures and what you see out what what do you
sort of envision happening in the next twelve months? What
what can you see? But what wouldn't surprise you?

Speaker 4 (55:34):
Uh, I don't know that I that I actually at
this point. If you had asked me this five years ago,
I would have been very had a different answer. But
I don't think that I'm going to see, say, a
whole lot is going to happen in the next twelve months.
Because I'm of the big I've kind of modified my
opinion of what I think is happening in the world.

Speaker 5 (55:54):
Over the last three or four years that I thought so.

Speaker 4 (55:58):
I still think we're in a war. I think it's
a very very very real war that we've talked about
a little bit here. I used to think that this
war was kind of their plan was to win the
war really quickly, and I no longer think that that's
the case. The main reason why I've changed my mind

(56:20):
on that is because I believe that the guys that
are fighting the deep state actually really are trying to
follow the rule of law, and in order to do that,
you can't just overthrow people, throw them all in jail
and be done with it, because that's a coup, and
people would ever view that in a good way. That
would create utter chaos. So to me a year, I

(56:44):
don't know how much difference I would see it.

Speaker 5 (56:46):
Even for being now.

Speaker 4 (56:47):
Five years from now, I think we could have a
fairly different world than what we're in right now, and
that would include probably probably a move into a new
financial system of some kind.

Speaker 5 (57:00):
Hopefully it will see.

Speaker 4 (57:03):
This kind of world globalist deep state thing really have
lost most of its power. I don't know that I
would say that it would be gone, But again I
don't know. I don't know what I don't know about
the actual wars that are being fought, the physical wars
that are actually being fought in the world. I don't
know any I'm not privy to that information.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
So yeah, I mean, people speculate all the time, and
it can be on It can be unhealthy to be obsessing,
because number one, people need to be watching their own
hearts and ensuring that they are walking with God, because
we can become obsessed like like he talked about, you know,

(57:43):
like the newspaper and looking at revelation, and that's what
some people do to get the newspaper and they're like, well,
we must be here now link And it doesn't work
like that. And people have to ensure that they're actually
walking the walk, they're walking the narrow path with the
Lord and being close to him. That's the number one
thing people need to live that life because if they're

(58:03):
not they can you know, pay cash for things, they
can not be jabbed, they can use gold, and so
they can do all the things. But if they're not saved,
what does it matter, because ultimately that's all that all
that matters that you are saved. If you if you
add one sort of message then to leave with our listeners,

(58:25):
especially people who are skeptical or anxious about what's happening
in the world, what would you say to them?

Speaker 4 (58:33):
Oh, I was just thinking as you were talking before
you ask the question about kind of two things being
can be true at the same time. So you can
be a Christian and not not just be a Christian
be saved, but be a Christian and live a faithful
life of your family, be present with your kids, be
involved in your church, do ordinary common things.

Speaker 5 (58:58):
Often.

Speaker 4 (58:58):
Think about Martin Luther, you know, when he was asked
what he would do if he knew Jesus would come
back tomorrow, he said, I'd.

Speaker 5 (59:04):
Plant a tree.

Speaker 4 (59:05):
Whether or not, I don't know if that's apocryphal or not,
but it's a great story because the point being that
that God has given us ordinary life to live, and
I think that that is something we should always be living.
But I also don't think that that's mutually exclusive to
living in days of war and trying to understand the

(59:29):
times that you live in and trying to think about
what might happen in the near future, the middle future,
and the far future. Now, if if we were living
in if we were having this conversation, let's say in
nineteen forty two, we're both in London, well, our minds
are going to be rightly obsessed to some degree with

(59:50):
the war that's raging and the bombs that are being
dropped over London by the Nazis. Right, we would be
thinking about that. We would be wondering is this ever
going to end? Is this the end of all things?

Speaker 5 (01:00:02):
And little wad do we know? That in three years
from then the war would be over. There would be
an end to that, at least the at least the
outward nature of that war.

Speaker 4 (01:00:12):
And it's not wrong to think that way, and you
both of those things can coexist at the same time.
And that kind of gets back to my original point
about why I wrote the book of wanting people just
to think, just to think about conspiracy theories, to entertain
the idea that they could be true, to understand that, yeah,
they can be bad things associated with thinking about all

(01:00:33):
the time, but also bad things with not thinking about
them ever same kind of a thing.

Speaker 5 (01:00:39):
These are not, it's not it's not mutually exclusive.

Speaker 4 (01:00:42):
And we live in too much of an either or
world with Christians where it just causes us to check
our brains out and not think about the world that's
in front of us.

Speaker 5 (01:00:53):
And and that's you know, that's what I want people
to do more of.

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
Yeah, one of the things I've said on a in
the past, and I'll say it again, is spend time
with your families, guys, because you can go down these
rabbit holes and you can just get lost. Yeah, you
can just get lost in them, and it's not healthy
at all. And I have to I do this podcast,
and obviously I've got to do some research and research

(01:01:17):
on my guest, and i have to read stuff. But
I'm aware, I'm aware when I first started it probably
got a little bit carried away. But then I realized, no,
this is not healthy. You need to make sure number one,
you're praying, you're in the word, and you're not sacrificing.
I mean, obviously it is a sacrifice when you're researching,
and you'll know that from writing books and things. I

(01:01:40):
know you've got to do it, but not too much
times being sacrificed in this conspiracy world, down these rabbit holes,
away from your family because we've got limited time, and
time is very precious. But yeah, be involved in the
war big gold soldiers of Jesus Christ. Now you've got
a number of books or before we got just tell

(01:02:01):
people about I know, I think you've got some a
couple of new books, I believe, or newish books. So
tell people about some of your books, and obviously where
they can get hold of them, and then where they
can follow you.

Speaker 5 (01:02:15):
Sure.

Speaker 4 (01:02:16):
So I kind of have about, I don't know, half
and half books that are kind of in the weird
realm and then that are more normal. So for your
reform people, I have books on covenant theology from our
reform Baptist perspective. I wrote a book on the solos
of the Reformation. I wrote a book on the creeds,
the early creeds of the Church, those kinds of things,

(01:02:40):
just trying to add my voice to that book on baptism.
That was actually my first book. I have unique takes
on probably all of those things. It's just the way
that God has made my mind to think. But I've
also written books on you know, conspiracy theories, like we've
talked about here, the giants, the neph only the Angel

(01:03:01):
of the Lord in the Old Testament, how important Christ
is in the Old Testament. I have a whole series
of books on Christ in the Old Testament. And I'm
not just talking about in prophecy. I'm talking about He's
literally there in person, physically present as the Angel of
the Lord. People knew him, they believed in him, they
talked to him, he was their God, and that you
know that right there is a topic that blows a

(01:03:21):
lot of Christians away. They've never heard that in their life.
So all my books are over on well, I guess
my newest book I'll mention that one too, is the
book on Revelation that I wrote. And so I'm not
coming at it from a premillennialist or a dispensationalist point
of view. It's more an amillennial kind of historic reform view.
But that said, I use kind of literary structures of

(01:03:44):
the book to try and ground what I do, and
then I do a lot of focusing on the supernatural
parts of revelation that that I've been thinking about just
over the years, and and so I've I found that
one a really fun book to write. All the books
are at Amazon, you don't you know, you can go
to my website, which is Douglas Vandorm dot com. I'd

(01:04:04):
always promote that, but you don't have to go there
to buy the books. She you just go directly to Amazon,
and I think you can buy them in most countries
in the world. There's a few that they don't deliver to,
but I know they do in England and places like that.
So I also have one other thing. I don't know
if you know that I'm doing this or not, but
I started a podcast about a year ago with a
fellow reform Baptist on kind of fringy topics in the

(01:04:28):
Bible mostly and we've recently rebranded it. We call it
The Reform Defringe, And that's a podcast on YouTube that
we do every week.

Speaker 5 (01:04:38):
But we also started a.

Speaker 4 (01:04:42):
What would it be a networking website called reformed Fringe
dot com where what we're trying to do is bridge
this these two worlds of the weird, conspiracy world, supernatural,
Divine Council world, the giant world, and then the normal world.
Reform theology that's good, solid doctrine, so we think it's

(01:05:04):
possible to bridge those two things and you can actually
live in both the worlds, and we're trying to do that.
It's like you've already said that we're in a weird
space where there's not many of us, but if people
are listening to you and they would like a place
to go and meet new people that are also in
kind of in both of those worlds, even if they're
not reformed, but they're not hostile to it. You know,

(01:05:26):
I highly encourage people to come to Reformfringe dot com.
It's about it's only about three months old, but I
already have about one hundred and fifty people that are
in there, and it's pretty good, it's growing, it's exciting
to be in there.

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
Yeah, i'd encourage people to get over there because, yeah,
we're a small group of people and you know, it
is good to have conversations with like minded people. I've
read obviously your book on conspiracy theories. I have the
book on Giants and they are available on Kindle. I
think I've read them both on Kindle.

Speaker 5 (01:05:57):
So yeah, for the people, So yeah, there are yes.

Speaker 2 (01:05:59):
So even if you can't get hold of a physical copy,
you can certainly get hold of a digital copy. Well, Doug,
it's been brilliant talking to you. I mean, You've got
so many topics you can talk about, and I'd love
to bring you back on and talk about some different
topics if you be open to that, it'd be brilliant.

Speaker 5 (01:06:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:06:20):
Absolutely, There's not many of us out here that are
doing this from our perspective, so I'm more than happy
to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
Yeah. No, I mean it's fascinating stuff. It's important. So
I just hope guys you've you know, this has been helpful,
because that's what it's all about, trying to help people.
And I say it on here to show people that
there is darkness, but there is a great light that
has come into the world, and that's Jesus Christ. And
that's ultimately what we're trying to do. We want people

(01:06:46):
saved we want people, you know, to be engaged in
this information war. But you can be engaged in that
and not be a Christian, but we want you engaged
in that, and we want you to be saved. So
thanks again Doug guys. It's fascinating stuff, it's important stuff.
Get over to Doug's website, have a look by some
of his books. I would highly recommend reading the book

(01:07:09):
on Conspiracy Theories, and then have a look at some
of his other books, particularly The Angel of the Lord
what you mentioned. That will be a fascinating read, I
would imagine. So thanks again Doug guys. I'll be back
next week with a new guest. I'm Paul, and this
is beyond the paradigm, my crazy. We don't use that

(01:07:34):
word in here.

Speaker 1 (01:08:19):
S