The Toxic War on Masculinity with Nancy Pearcey - Part 1

On today’s Bible Answer Man broadcast (09/05/23), we present an episode of the Hank Unplugged podcast. Hank’s guest is Professor of Apologetics and Scholar-in-Residence at Houston Christian University Nancy Pearcey, author of The Toxic War on Masculinity: How Christianity Reconciles the Sexes. Hank and Nancy discuss The Toxic War on Masculinity vs. toxic masculinity, the importance of Christian apologetics, if masculinity is toxic or a good thing, what it means to be a good man, and if there are real differences between men and women.

Episode Transcript

(00:07):
From the Christian Research Institute in Charlotte, North Carolina. This is the Bible
Answerman Broadcast with Hank hannah Graph.We're on the air because truth matters,
life matters more. On today's specialedition of the Bible Answerman Broadcast, we
present a previously recorded episode of theHank Unplugged Podcast. Hank's guest is Professor

(00:29):
of Apologetics and scholar in residence atHouston Christian University, Nancy Pearcy, author
of The Toxic War on Masculinity,How Christianity Reconciles the Sexes. Here now
is Hank Hannah Graph, and welcometo another edition of the Hank Unplugged Podcast,
a podcast committed to bringing the mostinteresting, informative and inspirational people on

(00:55):
the planet directly to your earbuds.And today we're not only talking about someone
who is interesting, informative, andinspirational, but someone who has brought a
book to us that is the quintessenceof those three parts of our mission statement,
and it's a book that is directlyneeded for our epic of time.

(01:15):
Now, before I introduced Nancy formally, I want to read something that Jay
Richards said about the book that isthe topic for today's discussion. The title
of the book, The Toxic Warand Masculinity, How Christianity Reconciles the sexes.
Jay Richards says this. And whenJay Richard speaks, I listen.

(01:38):
I've had him on the podcast,on the broadcast, I've featured him in
the Christian Research Journal. He issomeone that I have such great respect for.
And he says this about the book, The Toxic War and Masculinity.
The first thing he says is thisis the very book we need right now.

(02:00):
The world and far too much ofthe Church are confused on the question
of our sexual natures in general andmanhood in particular. Nancy Pearcy provides the
decisive defense of masculinity rightly understood againstdistortions to the left and to the right.

(02:23):
She shows why Christianity not only givesthe best account of manhood, but
also serves to form the sort ofmen the world and families need. And
then he ends with this line everyoneshould read, indeed study this book.
So at the very outset, beforeI've even introduced the guest and the author

(02:44):
of this book, let me saythat The Toxic War and Masculinity, How
Christianity reconciles the sexes is must reading. It's written by Nancy Pearcy. It's
available for anyone who stands shoulder toshoulder with us in the battle for life.
And you can get your copy onthe web and equip dot org.
You can write me at box eightyfive hundred, Charlotte, North Carolina,

(03:06):
zip code two eight two seven one. But make sure you get this book
and read this book. As ismy habit. I go through the book
one time in a cursory fashion,kind of speed read the book. Then
I go through with a pentel andlater with a highlighter. And when you
do this with a book like this, you will have so many aha moments,

(03:30):
not only ones that are fleeting,but stick in your mind and then
equip you to make a difference whilethere is yet time. So I'm a
big fan of the book that we'retalking about today, The Toxic War and
Masculinity. The author Nancy Piercy.Nancy, she has so many credits to
her name. She's a professor ofapologetics, one of the great apologies of

(03:52):
our era. She's a scholar inresidence at Houston Christian University. She's a
bestselling author and speaker. Her bookshave been translated into myriad languages. Some
of the books that we featured onthe Bible Instrument broadcast and on the hank
On podcast Total Truth, Love thyBody, and this book of course,

(04:15):
The Toxic War and Masculinity. Weappreciate the work of Nancy Piracy. She's
making a difference while there's yet time. And very very pleased to have you
on the hank On on Plug podcast. Thank you very much, it's good
to see you again. It isgreat to see you as well. I
guess the first thing I want tosay about this book is it's a very

(04:36):
clever title. We hear the phrasetoxic masculine linity, but this book is
the Toxic War and Masculinity. Wheneveryou come up with a title, there's
always a story behind it, soI'm sure there's a story here as well.
Well. It's true I wanted toget the words toxic and masculinity in

(04:57):
there, because of course that isthe phrase of our day. But I
didn't want to use the term toxicmasculinity because I do not agree that there
is toxic masculinity or that masculinity initself is toxic, and so I did
try to come up with some playon words, and I'm glad you liked
it, because not everyone quite getsit, Like, wait a minute,
what do you say that people alwaysdo sort of a double take, though

(05:20):
that's not bad either. So Idid want to catch people's attention with the
two words toxic and masculinity, butto say that, actually, men are
doing much worse today than they werein the past, and there was a
problem now with hostility that's being shownagainst men. I'll just give you two

(05:40):
examples. When I told my classI was writing a book on masculinity,
a male student shot back, whatmasculinity? It's been beaten out of us.
So even Christian people feel that masculinityis being demeaned and demoted today.
And I also quote a psycho therapistwho writes regularly for the Wall Street Journal,

(06:02):
and I was really impressed with astatement she said, the young men
coming into my practice today all feeldemoralized and defeated because they feel like they're
growing up in a culture that's hostileto masculinity. So that's what I wanted
to capture in the title, isthat we do have a problem with outright

(06:23):
hostility against masculinity today. Yeah,Nancy. Before I actually get into the
subject matter of the book, Iwant you to talk a little bit about
your background, particularly the way you'vebeen impacted by Labris and by Francis Shaeffer.
Oh, yes, very much.So it is why I'm a Christian
today. So I grew up ina Lutheran home. I don't know if

(06:47):
you know this, but all Scandinaviansare Lutheran. My dad's Swedish, my
mom's Norwegian, and it's a statechurch. It was in the past,
and it's like all I was,You're Catholic. So as a result,
the weakness of that is that oftenpeople rely on the ethnicity to hold you,
and in my home there was nota lot of really firm, authentic

(07:12):
personal conviction. And so when Iwas in high school, I started asking
questions, actually just one question.I started asking, how do we know
Christianity is true? I'm attending apublic high school. All my textbooks are
secular, all my teachers are secular. And I started simply asking, how
do we know Christianity is true?And unfortunately none of the adults in my

(07:33):
life could answer that. I aska Christian university professor point blank. I
just said, why are you aChristian? He said, works for me,
that's it. You're a university professor. And I had a chance to
talk to a seminary dean and Ithought I would get a more substantial answer

(07:53):
from him, and all he saidwas don't worry. We all have doubts
sometimes, as if it were apsychological phase that I was going through.
And so about halfway through high school, I very intentionally walked away from my
Christian upbringing. I decided, Iguess Christianity doesn't have any answers, and
it's up to me to find outwhat is really true. And I literally

(08:13):
started walking down the hallway at thepublic high school I attended and pulling books
off the philosophy shelf because I thought, if I can't get any people to
talk to me about this, maybethese dead guys, right, these philosophers
have some answers, because that's theirjob, after all. Right, A
philosophy first supposed to answer questions likewhat it's truth? And how do we
know it? And is there afoundation for ethics or is it just true

(08:37):
for me true for you? Isthere any meaning to life? And I
quickly decided if there is no God, the answer to all those questions.
Is no, there is no meaningto life where a chemical accident on a
rock flying through space. There's nofoundation for morality if there's no transcendent standard.
You know, I even realize there'sno foundation for knowledge itself, because

(09:00):
the way I thought of it was, if all I had was my puny
brain and the vast scope of timeand space, what makes me think I
could attain some kind of universal,objective, absolute truth. Ridiculous. That's
how I thought of it as asixteen year old. Ridiculous. And so
in my science classes I also pickedup determinism. In other words, I

(09:22):
was taught that we're just complex biochemicalmachines, so there's no free will anyway.
So by the time I graduated fromhigh school, I had absorbed all
of these secularisms. And it wasa few years later I was in Europe.
We had lived in Europe when Iwas a child, and so all
through high school I saved up mymoney so I could go back, and

(09:43):
in Europe I stumbled across Labris,the ministry of Francis Schaeffer, which is
known as an apologetics ministry, andI had never heard any apologetics before I
was blown away. I was soimpressed. I had never found counted Christians
who engaged with the secular isms thatI had absorbed by that time, and

(10:05):
who could show that Christianity he hadsolid, good answers, that Christianity could
be defended by good reasons and argumentsand evidence and logic. So I was
amazed it was. It took ayear and a half. I didn't want
to give up the fight immediately,but I did eventually become convinced that Christianity

(10:26):
was true. Because Christianity he hadlet me down already once before as a
child. I didn't want to rushinto it quickly. I wanted to be
absolutely intellectually convinced that it was true. And it took a year and a
half, but I did finally cometo that position. And that's why I
teach apologetics now right. I teachit, I write it. I really
have a heart to reach out toyoung people who have the kind of questions
that I had when I was young. Stay you're right there. We'll be

(10:50):
back soon to rejoin Hank Hannah Graph'sconversation with Professor Nancy Piercy. Why can't
we hate men? Ask a headlinein the Washington Post, a trendy hashtag
as kill All Men. Books aresold titled I Hate Men, No Good
Men? And are Men Necessary?How did an ideology arise that condemns masculinity

(11:13):
as dangerous and destructive? Best sellingauthor Nancy Piercy takes readers on a fascinating
romp through American history to discover howthe secular script for masculinity turned toxic and
what action we can take to fixit. To be sure to read The
Toxic War on Masculinity, How ChristianityReconciles the Sexes. To receive your copy,

(11:35):
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to support the Christian Research Institute's mindshaping, life changing outreaches a day D
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(14:00):
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(15:07):
again or Hank Hannagraph and his guestprofessor Nancy Pearcy as they continue their conversation.
And I have found as I travelthe world that people desperately want answers.
And that's why I'm so excited tohave you on the podcast, because
I mean, you've given your lifeto giving answers and equipping people to always

(15:28):
be ready to give a reason forthe hope that lies within them with gentleness
and with respect, which is partof the mission statement of the Christian Research
Institute. I want to get backto the subject matter of your book and
something that you said at the verybeginning of the podcast, or if you
think masculinity is the problem, thenemasculation becomes the solution. You alluded to

(15:50):
that, but I want you toexpand on that a little bit because I
think that's the heart of the bookin essence. Yes, Well, what
reason I wrote the book? Itis because I was noticed thing how it
has become socially acceptable to express extremehostility against men. The Washington Post had
an article titled why can't we hatemen? Really? In a respected mainstream

(16:14):
publication. A Huffington Post editor tweetedhashtag kill all men. You can buy
t shirts to say so many men, so little ammunition. There are actually
books with titles like I Hate men, No good Men, and are men
Necessary? And even some men arejumping on the bandwagon. There's a male

(16:37):
author whose book has quoted sometimes whosaid talking about healthy masculinity is like talking
about healthy cancer. And you mayhave seen this one. It's not my
book because it came out more recently. It was just in the news a
couple of weeks ago. The directorof the movie Avatar, James Cameron,
was quoted in the news because hesaid testoster rowne is a toxin that you

(17:02):
have to work out of your system, so no wonder. A recent survey
found that forty six percent of Americanmen agree with the statement. These days
society seems to punish men just foracting like men. And there was an
even more recent one, again,the more recent ones not in the book.

(17:22):
It was done in Britain. Fiftyfive percent of men agreed with that
statement. So it's going up.And so it's clear that even if you
don't agree with that, that isa large percentage of the population who now
think men are getting a bad deal, and so it is something that we
need to pay attention to and findsolutions to. And you're right, it's

(17:44):
not emasculation. We have to findways to affirm masculinity as a good thing.
Obviously, God created men to bemasculine, as he created women to
be feminine, and so we needto find ways to affirm that even in
our modern culture. You will said, talk about the problem of stereotypes,
the real man versus the good man. That would be a stereotypical statement that

(18:07):
you would hear. It's a narrative, but there's a problem with that stereotype.
Yes, I put this right atthe front of the book, and
I'll give you some of the backonto this. This has turned out to
be the most controversial book I've written, which surprised me. I really thought
my earlier book, Love Thy Bodywould be the most controversial book because it
deals with abortion, homosexuality, transgenderism, which is such a cutting edge issue

(18:30):
today. But this one actually wasmore controversial, and I led classes on
it. I led reading groups onit to catch all the rough edges right,
and when they would tell their friendsand family about this manuscript we were
going through. Invariably, the firstquestion was whose side is young with that

(18:51):
tone? Whose side is she?Men tended to think she's probably some male
bashing, feminist and progressive thought,where she's probably will be some defensive,
angry, reactionary. And so Iput that study the study of the good
man versus a real man. Iput that right at the beginning, because
it kind of diffuses that hostility,that opposition. This was a study done

(19:12):
by a sociologist. He's not aChristian, but he's well known, and
so he gets invited to speak allaround the world, and so he came
up with this clever experiment. Heasked young men two questions. First,
she asked them what does it meanto be a good man? And he
said, all around the world.Young men had no problem answering that.

(19:33):
They answered things like honor, duty, sacrifice, integrity, do the right
thing, be a provider, bea protector, be responsible, be generous.
And he would ask them, orwould you learn that this is well,
it's just in the air we breathe, or if it was in a
Western country, they would say,it's part of our Judeo Christian heritage.

(19:53):
And then he would follow up witha second question. He'd say, what
does it mean if I say toyou, man up, be a real
man, and the young man wouldsay, no, no, no,
no, that's completely different. Thatmeans be strong, be tough, never
give up, would at all costs, suck it up, be competitive,
get rich, get laid. I'musing their language, and what it means

(20:18):
is that men are actually caught betweenthese two opposing scripts. We would say,
because men are made in God's image, they do know what it means
to be a good man. Thesociologist said he was finding the same thing
with Brazil, Sweden, Australia.Young men have an in eight inherent knowledge
of what it means to be agood man, or we would say romans

(20:40):
too right. We all have aconscience, but they do feel social pressure
to live up to the script ofthe real man, which does include traits
that we might consider more toxic.At least if it's decoupled from the moral
ideal of the good man, itcan easily slide into traits like entitlement and

(21:00):
dominance and power and control, andso it gives us. I would suggest
a fresh way of dealing with theseissues instead of calling men toxic you know,
not too many men respond well tobeing called toxic. Nobody would.
So instead, what we should dois try to tap into their innate knowledge
of what it means to be agood man, support, affirm, and

(21:23):
encourage that inherent knowledge of the goodman, and that gives us a much
more positive way to approach these issues. Yeah. Wow. You know when
you talk about this stereotypical idea ofmen today and the culture at the bashing
of maleness and so forth, youget anti male sentiment in the institutions that

(21:45):
control our culture today. Educational you'rein the educational field, that's a hotbed
for anti mail sentiment. Oh yes, absolutely. This is something I also
had to put in the first chapterof the book because people were often challenge
to me, but well, whatdo you think the differences between men and
women are then, because that becomesa hot point. Right as soon as

(22:06):
you say those differences, people willchallenge you because well, it is true
that once you acknowledge a difference,it is typical for people. Let's say,
well these traits are less, thenthese traits are inferior. And so
I start with just biology. Biologygives us the bare basics, right,
men are bigger, stronger, faster. Because of testosterone, they do tend

(22:29):
to be more aggressive, more risktaking. They even have more fast twitch
muscles. That's the term I hadto learn. It means they can react
more quickly. And so these aregood gifts from God. Some men are
made and we need to affirm thatGod made men with these qualities, with
these characteristics. And the reason,like I say, that many people don't

(22:51):
want to acknowledge differences is because they'reafraid that if we say these are good
strengths of men. You talk abouteducation. Even in a Christian university,
most of my female students identify ass feminist. And the minute I said
anything positive about men, even menare strong, they would say, well,
women are strong too, and soyou'd have to immediately say yes,

(23:12):
yes, yes. But women tosome degree have different strengths and it's important
though that we describe them as strength. In other words, take for example,
our superpower, of course is thatwe can have children, and having
children also leads to certain character traits. We have more oxytocin, which is
the bonding hormone which makes women onthe whole more nurturing and taking care of

(23:36):
an infant is incredibly demanding. Youhave to be willing to be interrupted any
time of the day, even threeo'clock in the morning. No matter what
you're doing, you have to bewilling to put it aside and meet the
infant's distress. When an infant's distress, you don't reason with them, you
don't scold them. You meet theirdistress, no matter what you wanted to

(23:56):
be doing at that time. Andwomen become incredibly patient. They have to
be incredibly sensitive to nonverbal cues becausethe babies aren't talking it, and of
course they become very sensitive to thusin the environment, so they become mama
bears. So it is important thatwhen we talk about the differences, we
talk about them both in terms ofstrength, you know, the male strength

(24:18):
and the female strength. So thatkind of reduces some of the hostility that
you know, like I say,I get it. Even in a Christian
school, you have to make surethat you are presenting both sides as strengths,
as God given gifts, that weshould be thankful for these differences because
they're from God, and that weserve one another through these differences. Nancy,
you mentioned oxytocin. I found afascinating part of your book where you

(24:44):
mention that the level of oxytocin risesin men when they're bonding with their children.
The biological change that takes place obviouslyis evident in a woman. But
I was absolutely fascinated. I'm thefather of twelve children. I did not
know that that was a biological reality. Yes, I'm not averse to appealing

(25:08):
to self interest in asking men tobe more involved fathers. You know,
often that message comes across in sortof a scolding tone, right. I
have a graduate student who's the leaderof the women's ministry at a large Baptist
church, and she said, onMother's Day, we hand out roses and
tell the women how wonderful they are. On Father's Day, we scold the

(25:30):
men and tell them to do better. So that's why I said, I
have a section in there on howmen benefit from becoming fathers. We'll have
to stop here for today special editionof the Bible Answerman broadcast. Join us
again next time when we will continueHank Hannah Graph's conversation with Professor Nancy Piercing.
Our firm commitment here at the ChristianResearch Institute is to defend the faith

(25:56):
once for all, delivered to theSaints and equipped believers to become true disciples
of Jesus Christ. In appreciation foryour vital gift to help strengthen and expand
CRY's mind shaping, life changing outreaches, Hank would like to send you a
copy of The Toxic War on Masculinity, How Christianity Reconciles the Sexes by Nancy

(26:18):
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(26:38):
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