The Toxic War on Masculinity with Nancy Pearcey - Part 2

On today’s Bible Answer Man broadcast (09/06/23), we pick up where we ended on our previous broadcast and present more of an episode of the Hank Unplugged podcast. Hank is talking with Nancy Pearcey, professor of Apologetics and Scholar-in-Residence at Houston Christian University and author of The Toxic War on Masculinity: How Christianity Reconciles the Sexes. Hank and Nancy discuss Oxytocin—the biological changes that take place in men when bonding with their children, the impact of pornography on toxic masculinity, the group of men who are the most loving and caring husbands and fathers, the paradox of Christian marriage—what headship really entails, and how Christianity revolutionized marriage.

Episode Transcript

(00:07):
From the Christian Research Institute in Charlotte, North Carolina. This is the Bible
Answerman Broadcast with Hank Hanagraph. We'reon the air because truth matters, Life
matters. More on today's special editionof the Bible Answerman. We pick up
where we ended on our previous broadcastand present more of an episode of the

(00:28):
Hank Unplugged podcast. Hank is talkingwith Nancy Pearcy, professor of apologetics and
scholar in residence at Houston Christian Universityand author of The Toxic War on Masculinity,
How Christianity reconciles the sexes. Let'snow join Hank Hanagraph and Nancy Pearcy

(00:48):
in their conversation. I have quotesfrom many men saying I never knew fatherhood
would be so so fulfilling, becausewe don't hear that today anymore. There's
literally newance in the brain that getactivated when a man becomes a father.
One psychologist called the dad brain.The dad brain is a nest of neurons
that don't wake up unless you actuallybecome a father. And so oxytocin is

(01:15):
part of that. Yes, we'vealways been told that women's oxytocin rises doing
pregnancy. It turns out that aman's oxytocin also rises when he becomes a
father, but he has to beactively holding and touching his child. It's
stimulated by tactile sense, so heif a father's actively holding his child,
his oxytocin goes up as well.And which you know, I know,

(01:37):
when I became a mother, Iwanted all the help I could get.
I was very thankful for this biochemicalboost to help me become a better parent.
And here's the really surprising thing.This is the most recent finding.
It's by an anthropologist, and shefound that men's the oxytocin and men goes
up even during the wife's pregnant.See in other words, it doesn't wait

(02:01):
until the baby's born. If thehusband and wife are living together, his
oxytocin goes up as well. Iguess nobody ever thought to test a man's
blood while his wife was pregnant,but when they did, they found out
that men are being primed. Godhas equipped men to be primed to be

(02:21):
a full member of the parenting team, biochemically primed all the way through his
wife's pregnancy as well as at thetime of birth. So this is fascinating
because that's why so many men dobond so closely with their children and do
feel as if that's an important partof their manhood. Since the Industrial Revolution,

(02:43):
we have pretty much taught men thatthey get their main identity from their
work, from their career, andwe have overlooked how much they do get
a sense of a validation of theirmasculinity by becoming involved fathers as well.
Yeah, and that was just oneof the two hundred three hundred. I
don't know. I had so manyAHA moments reading through your book, and

(03:05):
that certainly is the top of thelist. I get sort of a poignant
question here, and that is howhas pornography impacted the idea of what it
is to be a man? Oh, it's had a tremendous influence. Unfortunately,
boys are now exposed to pornography fromabout age nine. You know,
it's on the phone, it's inthe music videos, it's everywhere. And

(03:29):
some people put it this way.Boys are getting their sex education from porn
more than they are from school,and it's a very bad education. It
is training them, of course,to see women as primarily objects of their
sexual lust. It is training themto think that women like certain kinds of
activities that most women don't like,that women find painful or demeaning. And

(03:52):
I talk about as sum in chapterone. I deal with it more in
my book Lovely Body, So Ionly touch on it in this book.
But it is part of the waythat boys are being brought up by our
culture to be more toxic. Youknow, we don't educate them in school,
right, They're falling behind in educationfrom kindergarten all the way through college

(04:13):
and graduate school. By the way, I just saw a graft. Today
colleges are about sixty percent female fortypercent male. Now, when I started
at Houston Christian University, by theway, it was seventy thirty. A
lot of these smaller Christian colleges,right, seventy thirty. So we're working
hard to change that. We broughtin football, and we brought in engineering

(04:33):
to attract more male students. Butmore women than men are graduated from college,
more women are graduating from graduate schooland even professional schools like law and
medicine, and so we're failing toeducate boys. There are books with titles
like The War against Boys, TheBoy Crisis, Why Boys Fail. People

(04:54):
are acknowledging that our society is failingboys, and I think the pornography fits
in did that we're failing to trainboys to be responsible, mature men who
care about women and children, whoare protective of women and children. And
then we wonder why they turn outto have toxic behavior. It's because our
culture is not training them up tobe honorable, productive men. If a

(05:18):
man gets involved in pornography, getsaddicted to pornography, can he have a
proper or a successful relationship with awoman. I don't think so. No,
There's been so many studies on this. There was a Washington Post article

(05:38):
that said, I don't care ifpornography is moral or not. You know,
it's a secular writer. Whether it'smoral or not, it's a public
health crisis. Then, the reasonthat the article called it a public health
crisis is because pornography is training somany men in being abusive, in being
violent. Something like eighty percent ofthe most watched porn involves violence, and

(06:01):
so it is literally training men toassociate sexual feelings with violence. And that's
why this article called it a publichealth crisis, because it is training men
to be violent and to be likeAndrew Tait. If we want to bring
in his So many young men arelooking up to Andrew Tate, and it's
turning out, of course that hewell, he himself calls himself a pimp,

(06:23):
that's his own word, and hehimself says, I don't care about
these women. I'm just using themas a means to make money. Well,
I think that's a pretty good exampleof where porn is leading young men
today, is they look up tomen like Andrew Tate. So I think
that pornography trains men so much.Not well, violence is the worst.

(06:44):
But even if it's not violent,it's seeing women primarily as receptacles for their
lust. Let's face it to beblunt. So no, I don't think
that a man who's addicted to porncan have a good, healthy, biblical
relationship with his wife. YEA,so many destruct of sociological aspects that we
could talk about in that regard.Thinking about aha moments, here's another stunner

(07:06):
for me, also a stunner forresearchers that if you are a committed churchgoing
man, the statistics for being anythingbut toxic are humongous. But if you're
just a nominal Christian man, wow, you actually fit the stereotype of toxic

(07:30):
masculinity. Yes, this was amazing, and it really is the final reason
I decided to write the book whenI saw the positive outcomes of committed Christian
men. So this is material that'snot really out in the public. I
had to go digging into these academicliterature to find these studies. So I
cided about a dozen studies showing thatcommitted Christian men actually test out as the

(07:57):
most loving and engaged husbands and fathers. Let me preface that by saying this
is very much counter to the culturalnarrative in writing the book. A quick
Google search found lots and lots ofquotes saying that evangelical men who believe in
any form of male headship are ofcourse going to turn out to be oppressive,
domineering, tyrannical patriarchs. I'll giveyou just one quote. So this

(08:22):
was the co founder of the ChurchToo movement, which followed the Me Too
movement. She said, the theologyof male headship feeds the rape culture that
we see permeating American Christianity today.So what happened is the psychologists, sociologists,
we're reading these accusations and saying,where's your evidence. You're making these

(08:45):
charges, where's your data? Andso they went and did the studies and
they found that, as you said, committed authentic Christian men who attend church
regularly test out as the most lovinghusbands and fathers. And by the way,
the first pushback I always get iswell, of course their wives said
they were happy the husbands are sittingright next to them. So you have

(09:07):
to clarify. I know, theseare very large population wide studies not done
by Christian organizations. You know,they're secular people in Islamic and Jewish.
You know, these are very largethousands of people done by secular organizations like
the General Social Survey for example,and then people, various researchers will come
and take what they are interested outof that data. And so these weren't

(09:30):
most of the studies were not Christiansrunning them, and the wives were interviewed
separately at any rate. So whatthey're reporting is that the wives say that
they are the happiest with their husband'sexpression of love and affection. Evangelical fathers
are the most engaged with their children, both in terms of shared activities like
sports and church youth group, andin terms of discipline like setting limits on

(09:52):
screen time and enforcing bedtime three pointfive hours per week more than the average
American father. Evangelical couples are theleast likely to divorce, and they have
the lowest rate of domestic abuse andviolence of any major group in America.

(10:13):
When I read this, I wasblown away. I had no idea.
I was reading the critics like allof its four and I said, I've
got to get this out. Ihave to get this out into the public.
The church needs to know this,because the church needs to understand that
men who have committed Christians aren't doinga good job. They need to stop
having that scolding tone that I talkedabout earlier and start affirming and supporting men

(10:33):
and letting them know that they're doinga good job. But the other side
of the coin, as you mentioned, is nominal Christians don't go away.
And just a few moments we'll rejoinHank Hanagraph's conversation with Professor Nancy Piercy.
We often hear that exhibit a oftoxic behavior is evangelical Christian men, but

(10:54):
recent sociological studies tell a very differentstory. These studies find that family men
who attend church regularly test out asthe most loving husbands and the most engaged
fathers. They have the lowest rateof divorce and the lowest rate of domestic
violence of any group in America.The Toxic War on Masculinity, How Christianity

(11:18):
Reconciles the Sexes by Nancy Piercy explodesantimle stereotypes and shows that classic Christianity has
the power to overcome toxic behavior andreconcile the sexes. To receive your copy
of The Toxic War on Masculinity,just call eight eight eight seven thousand CRII
and make a gift to support theChristian Research Institute's Mind Shaping life changing outreaches

(11:45):
eight eight seven thousand CRII, orgo online to equip dot org. That's
equip dot org. If you're nothorrified, you should be, because the
relentless assaults of wokeism on sanity andcommon sense have now reached a fevered pitch.

(12:09):
In fact, some astute observers seemore than deranged ideologies at work.
It's as though the gates of Hellhave been opened, and alarmingly, the
speed of this mindless rush to chaosin potential civilizational collapse is gaining momentum.
Daily. That means Christians need towake up and wake up fast. One
of the best alarm clocks is theupcoming special Woke edition of the Christian Research

(12:33):
Journal. It contains sobering articles withpenetrating analyzes of a social disease that is
reaching a flash point. To receiveyour copy of this special edition of the
Christian Research Journal, visit equip dotorg. That's equip dot org or call
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(13:45):
for life and truth. Check outthe benefits of membership at equip dot org.
Once again, that's equip dot org. Truth Matters, Life Matters More
by Hank Hanograph is essentially two booksin one because Truth Matters Part one equips

(14:09):
Christians to defend the essential truths ofthe historic Christian faith. In part two,
Hank explains why life matters more andhow we can experience the height of
human existence union with God in Christ. Simply put, the map is not
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seven thousand CRI, or go onlineto equip dot org. Well, let's

(15:07):
rejoin Bible Answerman host Hank Hannograph andhis guest professor Nancy Piercy in their conversation.
The church needs to understand that menwho have committed Christians aren't doing a
good job. But the other sideof the coin, as you mentioned,
is nominal Christians. So nominal meansin name only. My students don't even
know what the term means. Ihave to explain to them nominal Christians.

(15:31):
One of the most widely quoted statisticsamong Christian leaders, as you no doubt
know, is that Christians divorce atthe same rate as the rest of the
culture. So the researchers went backto the data and they did make that
crucial distinction between committed Christians and nominalChristians. And as you said, the
nominal Christians are shockingly different. Theydo fit all the toxic stereotypes. Their

(15:54):
wives report the lowest level of happiness, they report the lowest level of engagement
with their children, they have thehighest rate of divorce, higher than secular
men, and they have the highestrate of domestic abuse and violence, even
higher than secular men. So thisis why the statistics get so skewed,

(16:15):
because you have men who are betterthan secular men and men who are worse
than secular men. So if youjust do a broad based discussion of evangelicals,
of course the numbers are willing tobe misleading, and it does suggest
again what the church needs to do. Support the men who are during a
good job, be aware that theyare, encourage them they feel as beaten
down as any other men do.But also I think we need better programs

(16:38):
to reach out to these men whoare kind of at the fringes of the
Christian world, who are claiming theidentity of evangelical and who we might say
are ruining the reputation of evangelicals becausethey're taking Biblical language like headship and submission,
but infusing it with meaning from thesecular script, from asculinity, infusing

(17:00):
it with definitions like dominance, entitlement, control, and so on. And
I sometimes have people ask me,well, but why are they worse than
sexual men if they're taking their definitionsfrom the secular world. Well, it's
because they're feeling like they have religiouspermission to act that way. Right,
So the secular person can be anabusive husband, say, but he doesn't

(17:23):
have religious justification. The nominal Christianfeels he has religious permission to act that
way, and so he ends upactually having the worst of both worlds and
being worse than secular men. Sothat's what we're up against in the church.
We have the best and the worst, and we have to figure out
a good strategy for dealing with menwithin the church. Yeah, what you

(17:44):
do in the book and in chapterthree titled the Paradox of Christian Marriage,
what Christians really think about headship?You just alluded to this, but elaborate
on that because there's such a stereotypicalnarrative about what head ship actually entails.
It's completely divorced from the real Biblicalunderstanding or the Christian understanding of headship.

(18:08):
Yes, I was surprised again becausethis is all coming out of you know,
hard data, you know, empiricalresearch, rigorous testing. I don't
know if you know this, butwhen my book first appeared, like the
day after the day after the bookappeared, it was viciously attacked by Christian
egalitarians. I don't know. Ifyou're not on Twitter, you may not

(18:30):
have noticed this. They took overmy whole Twitter page for days, for
weeks. And this was interesting becauseI don't even debate the egalitarian complimentarian issue
in my book. I don't becauseI wasn't. I'm not interested in these
in house debates. Well, there'stwo reasons. One is, two of
my top researchers say that in practice, it doesn't seem to make much difference.

(18:52):
This was fascinating. So Brad Wilcoxis considered he's at the University of
Virginia. He's considered like the topmarriageiologist in the country. And his conclusion
from his research was, I've testedmen who are egalitarian, and I've tested
men who are complimentarian. And hesaid, complimentarian men are not abusive.

(19:14):
They do test out as the happiest, the most engaged, loving husbands and
fathers. By the way, he'sCatholic, so in a sense he didn't
have a dog in this fight becauseyou know, I don't know that.
He was happy to find out thatEvangelical Protestant men test out on top at
the highest level. And he testedegalitarian marriages. Then he said, they're

(19:36):
not any happier. They don't testout as happier. And then there's a
top marriage psychologist in the country,John Gottman, and he said the same
thing. He said, I havepeople coming into my practice, some of
them believe the man should be incharge of his marriage, and I have
people come in who are very egalitarian, and he said you know, here's

(19:59):
how he put it. Emotionally intelligenthusbands have figured out the most important thing,
which is how to convey honor andrespect to your wife. Their gender
theory does not seem to make adifference. So I just quoted that and
said, Okay, this is whyI'm not going to deal with this question
in my book. And then thefirst several weeks of the book without I
got the book got dragged into thatdebate by Christian egalitarians. The second reason

(20:22):
that I don't do it is becauseI'm an apologist, right, so I
want to count to the secular charges. The secular world says if you are
an evangelical conservative Christian, you willbe a domineering, abusive patriarch. So
I thought, well, let's findout. Let's look at these studies that
were done of evangelical men. Whatdo they say? And so chapter three

(20:45):
is all pretty much all just quotesfrom Christian men and women saying what they
think headship means. And once againI was blown away by how loving and
respectful their understanding of headship was.They did not define it primarily in terms
of breadwinner or final authority or tiebreaker. Some of the things we normally hear.

(21:07):
They defined the most common phrase wasspiritual leadership, spiritual leader and if
you pressed them, well what doyou mean by that? They would start
with the most obvious, practical things. Get your family their church on Sunday,
get your kids to youth group,have family devotions, have family prayers.
But it also was the less tangiblethings like being responsible for the spiritual

(21:30):
life and welfare of your wife andchildren. And so I quoted a secular
sociologist thing, wait a minute,how can you believe in headship and equal
worth at the same time. Well, Christians have figured out how to do
that. Yes, there's a headshipin terms of a special kind of responsibility
for the husband, but they don'tthink that that means that husband and wife

(21:52):
have differing worth, that women areinferior or subordinate. They do believe that
they're both made in God's image andclearly have the same spiritual status. So
chapter three is just quoting Christian couplesshowing what they think had means. And
I, personally, I didn't expectit to be that positive, very very

(22:12):
positive. Yeah, it's about responsibility, not privilege. Yeah that was a
nice summary. Yeah, so yousay that Christian marriage was historically revolutionary.
And then you expand on that inthe book, and I think that is
very eye opening for our audience tohear. It's hard for people to go
back, let's say, to firstcentury Rome and see how women were treated

(22:36):
within that context and how Christianity comesinto that context and liberates women, exalts
women. You know, obviously christis the quintessential example of taking women and
giving women significant roles. I mean, they're his entourage, they're part of
his inner circle. Mary is thequinte essence of theosis. I mean she's

(23:02):
everything that we hope to be.So marriage from a Christian standpoint was revolutionary
to the culture. It was countercultural. Yeah, it's difficult for us to
make this point with our secular friendsbecause Christianity has become the wallpaper, right.
They don't realize how much our viewsof women and the value, dignity,

(23:25):
significance of women has come from Christianity. So you get that perspective better
if you go back to the firstcentury and what was the early church facing
well and Roman culture, women hadvery little status, very little value.
Women were expected well, marriage wasto produce legal heirs, but there was
not any expectation that there would beany real love and affection between husband and

(23:48):
wife. Women were often married offas aged twelve or thirteen, so they
were much younger than their husbands.They had much less education, and it
was almost more like marrying a child. As a result, husbands and wife
had very little in common, andwomen were seen as inferior well because they
were so much younger men. Itwas totally socially acceptable for men to have

(24:11):
sex with just about anybody. Prostitutes, courtesans, mistresses, and most of
all their slaves. Slaves were themost common, both male and female,
both adult and children. Pedophilia wasa big part of it, and in
fact, as you know, unwantedchildren were often put out. It was

(24:33):
called exposed. They were exposed.They were put out to be killed by
the wild beast or by the elements. Those children is sometimes rescued and raised
in brothels to be sex slaves.So in this context, oh, an
abortion, I should say abortion andinfanticide were committed primarily against baby girls.

(24:55):
It was rare. Historians tell usit was rare for a Roman family to
have more within one daughter. Theywould have a token girl. That was
it anymore. Girls would be againkilled or aborted, and abortion was a
big killer of women too if youinsisted. There were some famous cases of
people who insisted that they had sexoutside of marriage, and so they insisted

(25:17):
that the women have an abortion,and abortion was a big killer of women
at that time. So all thatto say that when Christianity came on the
scene and said you need to befaithful in marriage, that was not a
huge message for women, but itwas revolutionary for men. Men will like,
shock, what do you mean wecan't have sex outside of marriage.

(25:38):
We'll have to stop here for today'sspecial edition of the Bible Answerman broadcast.
Join us again next time when wewill continue Hank Hannah Graph's conversation with Professor
Nancy Piercing. Our firm commitment hereat the Christian Research Institute is to defend
the faith once for all, deliveredto the saints, and equipped believers to

(25:59):
become true disciples of Jesus Christ.In appreciation for your vital gift to help
strengthen and expand CRY's mind shaping,life changing outreaches, Hank would like to
send you a copy of The ToxicWar on Masculinity. How Christianity reconciles the
Sexes by Nancy Piercing. Call aresource consultant at eight eight eight seven thousand

(26:22):
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Once again, that's equip dot org. You can also write CRI at
Post Office box eighty five hundred,Charlotte, North Carolina, zip code two
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(26:48):
We're on the air because truth matters, life matters more. If you
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(27:11):
and dangerously declared their independence from reality. That's right for those infected by the
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(27:33):
on penetrating analyzes and criticisms of oneof the most dangerous ideologies in modern history.
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