October 20, 2025 • 49 mins
Today, we’re joined by Matthew McWhorter, a retired corporate attorney, former atheist, and author of Canon Crossfire: Does the Protestant Bible Blow Up the Case for Christianity?. After a near-death experience, Matthew launched a courtroom-style investigation into Scripture—and what he discovered will shake your assumptions. From the Apocrypha to the resurrection, his findings are bold, evidence-based, and spiritually electrifying. You can learn more at CanonCrossfire.com.
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Bill Martinez Live is broadcast live Mondays at 3PM ET on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Bill Martinez is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Bill Martinez Live Podcast is also available on https://www.billmartinezshow.com, Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
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(00:20):
choosing W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Well, hello, glad you could join us. Bill Martinez here
if you're ready, and even if you're not ready, get ready.
We're going to do a deep dive into the Bible.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Our next guest, Matthew Mark mcwarter, and i'll tell you
more about him in just a moment, has written quite
a book called Canon Crossfire. Does the Protestant Bible blow
up the case for Christianity? And I'll tell you, like
I said, put on your seatbelts, because you know, as
we see evil erupting across the globe and revival sweeping
(01:11):
the streets of America, millions are turning to Christ with
burning questions. But what if the answers they seek aren't
found in the pages that most churches preach from. Good question, well,
what if the key to defending the resurrection lies in
the very books that were left behind? Well, Matthew McWaters
I mentioned he's a retired corporate attorney, former atheist, and
(01:35):
author of Cannon Crossfired. Does the Protestant Bible blow up?
The case for Christianity is going to be joining us?
And after a near death experience, Matthew launched a courtroom
style investigation into scripture and what he discovered is going
to shake your assumptions from the Apocrypha to the resurrection.
His findings are bold, evidence based and spiritually electrifying, and
(01:59):
you can learn more at his website Cannon Crossfire dot com.
So buckle up, buttercup. This is one of these conversations
that you won't forget and you'll be glad you joined
us for Matthew, welcome the show.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Good to have you with us.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
Thank you very much, glad to be here. God bless hey,
God bless you.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
I'm so excited to talk to you because you know,
although when we first talked, I'd mentioned that you were
I you know, you were an atheist, but you said
not exactly an atheist, but kind of an atheist. I
don't know, small atheist, I guess. But you know, it's
interesting because after your near death experience, you thought, okay,
(02:38):
maybe I had to check out this Jesus stuff. And
you went into this with a legal background and wiring
in your legal training to make sure that you just
weren't getting duped because up to I guess I got
to imagine up over the years, you know, whenever any
discussion of the Bible or Jesus Christ came up, you
(02:59):
just probably your brain just shut it off and said,
you know, I'm just not I'm not buying it. But
you know, maybe in part you did it out of
durance because you didn't have the whole truth nothing but
and you hadn't studied it. But all of a sudden,
after this near death experience, it was time for you
to do a deep dive.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Is that fair to say?
Speaker 4 (03:21):
Yeah? I mean literally, the only reason I read the
book was because my name's Matthew Mark a quarter I
was named after it.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
So I at least at least two parts of the gospel.
Matthew Art and your.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Mom should have added Luke and John to really get
make me.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
I have been bitter my whole life because whenever people
ask me where is Luke and John, I'm like, where
is my twin? Why did I not have a twin?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Right right exactly?
Speaker 4 (03:45):
But I read the book. I actually there were other
books that you know. There was something by a collection
of four Western stories from Dane Gray that my grandfather
had given me, and they were all the same bucket list. Like,
I didn't Hickley select religious books to read. It was
just all the books I hadn't read yet. Yes, so
that's what happened. I just started reading it started wondering.
(04:06):
I'm told a lot of pastors say this that lawyers
convert more frequently than other professions because we're used to
seeing guyewitness testimony. We know what that looks like, That's
what the Gospels are, We recognize that, and then the
question becomes, well is this true eyewitness testimony or fake
eyewitness testimony? And from there forward it was It was
(04:28):
just an investigation. And it went on for several years
of merely a mechanical exercise of me being curious. Before
I started really believing and started moving into a natural
religious sphere. I was as you say, a small a atheist.
I didn't hate religion. I just didn't care. And part
of that not caring was I didn't even know why
(04:50):
people went to church. So I kind of converted myself.
You know. There was no church converting me. There was
no person converting me. It was just a pile of books.
And along the way in the conversion, I had to realize,
oh wait a minute, I have to go to church.
But that came later, Like I didn't. I originally sort
of thought of Christianity without a church. You know why
(05:11):
bother I got other things to do on Sunday.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
So anyway, that was a big part though, foundationally about
our faith is that it is a personal relationship exactly.
That's where it starts, and that's why it's so important
that you honor that relationship, those those initial depths that
you take into your faith. So when you decide to
(05:35):
plant your feet in a body of Christ a church,
that you're careful about where you plant your seed.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Right, yeah, absolutely, and that that is the spiritual risk,
religious Christian way of looking at it. To be honest,
as an outsider, I was, I ain't joining your cult
until you know, like you got to prove it to
me first. So that's why it was such a written thing.
So either way, whichever side of the coin you're looking at,
it's a crucial part of the decision as to you know,
(06:08):
what what religion is. That it's that personal relationship, also
that it's corporate, that it's it's collective and communal and social,
you know, that comes through the Bible. That and it
all leads to the same place. But there's there's many
ways of looking at it, in ways of pointing you
to the same same destination in the end, which is
to go to the right church exactly.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
And I got to imagine for you, first of all,
being an attorney. But the other thing is that you
put years, lots of years in time into really making
you know, coming to make this commitment. Many people, it's
it's almost like we used to say in California, because
I grew up close to the beach, it.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Was like surfs up.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
You know, It's just it's a surfs up emotional kind
of thing, and and so and and in some ways
that can tend to be a little bit surfacing, they're
really the depth of somebody's relationship with God. As a
former pastor, friend of mine used to say is about
as deep as a dime. And that's unfortunate because in
(07:10):
those situations, especially if you happen to run into them
in church and you think, hey, this is a fellow believer,
and you know, all of a sudden you go, well maybe.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Not yeah, absolutely, and I I but trying. You know,
this whole experience of me writing the book and talking
to people about it and having readers, et cetera. I
am such a strange person. I'm not like other people
in many ways, and one of them is exactly that
kind of journey of it. Never once occurred to me
to just have a you know, flash and all of
(07:40):
a sudden it was there. But to me it was
a long intellectual exercise and that is not normal, but
part of it because I am that kind of person.
The way I came to it. I think that's why
I did all this work, and why now that I've
done the work, it's so easy for anyone else to
see the points that I'm making and learn about what
I'm doing. But somebody had to be so interested in
(08:00):
this question that they would go to the depths that
I went, and I guess that was me.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Well, you know, you've done a lot of the hard work.
You know, for some of us that would not would
not do that. You know, our relationship and our wiring
and the way God designed us, just like he designed you.
He knew that you were going to go and do
the deep dive that I mean, he he designed you
that way.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
And so that when he held off. I think part
of the reason why I wasn't Christian my whole life
is God saying I needed He wanted somebody, and he
picked me to wait until they had a lifetime of
skill and a reason to do all this research and
to look at two questions at the same time without
really caring what the answers were to either of them.
(08:44):
One is Christianity true? And the other one is which
Bible am I supposed to be reading? And it was
looking at that at the exact same moment that let
me see this cannon crossfire that my book's about. And
I don't know how many people would have seen this
or have seen it over time, and it's just such
a crucial part of how I looked at things, and
as I said, led me to do all of this work.
(09:05):
I feel like God had a reason for everything that
he did.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Well, just like he had a reason to bring two
knuckleheads together like.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
You and me.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
I have this conversation with all due respect, I mean,
because I'll tell you I mean. I have considered myself
a theologian. I graduated from Bible College. I study the.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Word of God.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
I'm in it on a regular basis. I took Jesus
for his word, and when he said that man does
not live by bread alone, but by every word that
comes from the mouth of God, I figure if Jesus
said that, I'm going.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
To take note here, So.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
You know, I took him at his word, and I
look back experientially in the journey that I've been on
that God, in his grace and mercy, has allowed me
to take.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
I'm grateful for it.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I did not ask that question, and I appreciate and
respect that you did, because it really takes us down,
you know, an important and critical road that I think
it's gonna bless people who are tuning in and who
will watch this segment, because it'll cause them to ask
(10:13):
other questions, like you know what. I had that question
in the back of my mind. I didn't ask it,
but I'm gonna ask it. And Matthew has encouraged me
to do that. But look before we get into that,
for just a moment. A couple times now we've talked
and I've mentioned your near death experience.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Do you mind telling us that story?
Speaker 4 (10:30):
Yeah, I was a successful attorney, prime on my life
forty three I think when it all started. And then
one day my father got cancer. So I was told
to go get my own test. And I assumed I
would find out twenty years from now that I have cancer,
but that right now would just be a warning about
(10:51):
it for now that I had cancer far worse than
my dad.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Oh wow.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
And so they played an operation to deal with the cancer.
Days later. This all happen. Within a month, I had
what's called a widow maker heart attack. It's the most
dangerous heart attack. About ninety nine percent of people die
die right there on the floor from it immediately.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, they measure They measure that in seconds, I think, exactly.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
And it's just a rush to see how fast you
can get to the hospital. Among other things. That I
got lucky or God was looking out for me, however
you want to look at it was. This all happened
in Houston, Texas. And I can assure you if it
had happened in the afternoon, i'd be dead because there's
no way you're getting a hospital at a time. But
luckily traffic alone will kill you in Houstone exactly. And
this happened in the middle of the night. I managed
(11:34):
to get to the hospital in time. They performed the operation,
saved my life. But then the cancer treatment's delayed, you know,
all the stuff. So it's you know, shocking numbers of
shocking percentage chance that I had to stay alive, and
yet somehow I did. And that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
I mean, here you are, You're dealing with a cancer diagnosis,
and as if that's not enough, hey, let's throw in
a little widow maker heart problem right.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Exactly, And all for a guy who had just passed
a physical like right beforehand. I mean, like it's crazy,
but you know, as I learned, those physicals are not
the most perfect diagnosis of whether you really are healthy.
But it just came as a shock. And so as
I was recovering from all of this, the question was, well,
I might not have a long time to live. I
(12:21):
really wasn't spiritual at this point. As I was saying
it was just like, literally, what do I want to
do before I die, And some of that answer was
read some books, and that's how I started down this journey.
So it was still years ahead before I really became
spiritual about looking back at all that. At the time,
I would have just said I got lucky, et cetera.
But like now I can sort of you can see
God working all long, right, But at the time, I
(12:43):
wouldn't have said that. And it, like I said, it
just came as a shock. It happens to other people.
Just happened to me when I was young, and you know,
it was definitely life altering, but I had already had
plans to retire young. So I then years later, I retire,
I focus on these books and I did all this research.
So that's that's really where it all comes from, is
(13:05):
just having that free time and having the inclination to,
because of this event, to do the do the looking
into the research.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
So you mentioned Pos's pox.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
He's fine. His cancer they can't operate on so it's
just a matter of you know, dealing with it. So
but he is fine, doing great. Seventy five. In my family,
it is shocking that anyone made it to the age
of sixty. So the fact that my dad my mom
are both alive. Is kind of amazing. My grandparents all
died there, so you know, and both my mom and
(13:39):
my dad had major heart problems and other problems along
the way too. So but do it fine, So we're good.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Well, just like you, you know, it ain't over until
it's over until God says.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
So right, he's hard to kill.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
He says, when we're coming and when we're leaving.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
I mean, there's just no absolutely right, it's just and
even how we have, even how we exit. Yeah, I
mean he's got it down, you know, as the word says,
he knows the end from the beginning, so we can
rest in that. Well that's quite the story. So here
you go through this and then you ask these two questions.
(14:14):
All right, I've got a Protestant Bible and i got.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
A Catholic Bible, and that's exactly what happened. So I'm
just I just want to read the books I'm named after.
So I went on Amazon and say, said, okay, what
by a Bible? And it's like, well, there's you know,
radically different translations. They all come with different commentaries from
all these different denominations. And then you find out the
Orthodox Protestants and Catholics have three completely different Bibles. So
(14:39):
about a box of bibles, not just a Bible.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
And so and so your study takes you through all
these Bibles. When you say that they're all radically different,
isn't there I mean there's some core books, I mean
absolutely and beliefs.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Yes, there's You know, if you're a Protestant, if you
read a Catholic Bible, you would love ninety percent of it,
and vice versa. Nine percent of it wouldn't bother you,
even though it's a little different from what you're used
to or what you truly believe whatever. And then one
percent would be what you'd argue over. And of course
all we do is argue.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Well that's hey, it's it's all part you know, it's
my Jewish friend says, you know, all Jews argue, and
so we're all, you know, we're all from that heritage.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
So yeah, okay, welcome to the club.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
Yeah we joined them, yes exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
So, as I mentioned, we got sixty six books in
the Protestant Bible and seventy three books in the in
the Catholic Bible. So talk about you know the difference
and also the terminology because some people will hear the
apocrypha and may not understand what that what that means,
(15:49):
or the Jutero canonical books.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
Yeah, so judoro chnonical is usually the more polite term.
The apocrypha is kind of an insult. In goal terms,
we would call it a conclusory statement. Uh, if something
is apocrypha, it's not scripture. So by using that term,
you're already you know.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
You're already indicting.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
Yeah, you've already made your decision. You're you're highlighting it.
So probably the better term is due to orcononical. But
most Protestants use apocrypha. So my book, which is really yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Because you can't say dodo cron you realize that's such
a tongue twister. I mean, I run across that I
can't say, and I keep thinking, okay, God, please let
me just let it, let it flow from my tongue.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
But I have to really think and through.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Get get I get the doutero right, and then canonical Okay,
all right, I have to I have to think about
it exactly.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
And it's not an easily defined term even if you're
using the term, so you got to be careful with
it to my mind is merely the books that Catholics
accept and Protestants do not. That is the Doudo organic.
But as I say in my own book, I actually
use the word apocrypha because I'm really talking to Protestants,
so I use their language when I'm talking to But
as terminology goes, it's it's not a good word and
(17:00):
shouldn't be used for these books. Really, when you're talking
in this where you're arguing or discussing whether or not
they are authentic, you should not be using the apocryphy, right.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
And the apocrypha consists of seven books, yeah, as you
write about in Canon Crossfire Bus, additions to Esther and Daniel,
and so I hope you're taking notes here exactly.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
And the thing the thing about it, as it's discussed
in my book, these are kind of objects, right, So
if you think about it as a trial, they're the
in dispute in the trial. But you don't actually have
to know all that much about the books. You don't
have to have read the books. We're just going to
talk about them. And you know, as you say, there
there are full books, there are pieces of books, There
(17:45):
are things that could be full books set off as
a full book or included as part of others. Because
Daniel is an anthology, it is a collection of stories already,
so then it's a question of what story should be
part of the anthology. And so Susannah, for example, could
stand off on its own. It does so in the
sixteen to eleven King James version, or it could be
(18:07):
part of Daniel as it is in Catholic books. It's
at the back of Daniel, or it could be at
the front of Daniel as it is in Orthodox books.
Because even order within Daniel, you know, is a choice.
It's all editorial.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Well, and what people need to remember is the Bible
originally they didn't have they didn't have chapters, I mean,
you know, and didn't have numbers.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
I mean, it was all versus no chapters, and it
the technology of the book had not yet been invented,
so that what we call a codex. But you know,
the physical concept of putting all these things inside a
binder and you know, tying them up on the left
hand side, et cetera, that didn't exist. It's all scrolls
early on right, and that's part of the you know
(18:48):
issues kind of I don't really deal with it in
my book. But it's it's a question about this all,
this whole concept of a canon, a list of books
that the correct books to be in the Bible, that
really kind of emergent just later because of the technology
of the book. Until then, the Bible was a pile
of scrolls, right.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
But but initially though the apocrypha you know, uh, I
guess we could say was was all part of it.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I mean goes back and.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
It's all the way Jewish books. So the first thing,
because I'm always amazed when I talk to the Protestants
on the street about this whatever, you will run into
a large number of them that say, well, Catholics invented
those books and added them. No, no, no, no, they
are Jewish books exactly. They pre exist christ They were
out there. The question is who was accepting these books,
Were they really accepted as scripture, et cetera. That is
(19:37):
not at all the same question as you know, when
they were made, and you know they they pre exist
price and and have known dates in certain cases, known
translation dates even in other cases. So it's it's you know,
it's a question about Judaism. Really at the heart of
it is what what was the Jewish scripture? What is
(19:58):
it that we're supposed to be using and not using
as Christian to derive come from Judea?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, but interesting though, and what comes out right away
for me, Matthew, As Jesus said, not a dot or
tittle would be removed, you know that everything would be fulfilled. Well,
if that's the case and you're not dealing with the
whole scripture and all the books of the Bible, then
you're kind of in conflict with what Jesus said.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
Yeah, and I so my book The Canon cross Righter
the subtitles does the Protestant Bible blow up the case
for Christianity? And every once in a while run into
Catholics who say, well, protests are never going to read this,
and you know, because it's anti Protestant, et cetera. It's
actually not anti Protestant at all. First of all, but
the second is, if you read any Protestant book on
the Bible, particularly on the Canon, it starts with a
(20:47):
long explanation of we better be right on the Canon,
because if we're wrong on that, we're wrong on everything. Right.
It is the single most important issue of all of
Protestant thinking in theology and philosophy and logic, all of it.
It's all off the Bible and being correct at the
very beginning. So that's part of my book is explaining
how important this is and too, even to considering the
(21:09):
rest of Protestant thinking, you have to start with this.
So when you you quote the Jesus about the every
jot and tittle, the Protestants would agree with you. And
in point of fact, one of the reasons that I
this is the book that I wrote is that Protestants
love this topic. They love scripture. They want to talk
about scripture, and discussing what really is authentic scripture is
(21:30):
right up their alley. So this is a fascinating thing
for them as well. They would agree with what Jesus said,
they don't necessarily agree on the result. But that's the
question that we're here to talk about, right is what
are what were the johns and tittles? Right?
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Right? Exactly?
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Well, and when you consider the apocryphy, as you said, rightly,
so these are Jewish books, okay, And the in the
arena of evidence you always look, especially when things are
closer to the occurrence, right, uh, eyewitness reports, whatever, it is,
the closer to that point of contact that validates or
(22:08):
heightens the value of said testimony right or evidence.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Absolutely, and Protestants will stress that point in the case
for Christ, where the earliest evidence is generally considered the
best evidence, but they also almost all of their theology
and their their argumentation with Catholics, et cetera, is a
claim that they feel that they have the original Church,
the original Bible, the original preaching of Jesus and the
(22:33):
apostles before the Catholic Church ruined him right or before
for the Church, you know, would get ruined. That's the
general mindset of what they're saying, right, And their question
that I'm addressing, you know, back in the face, is
is that accurate about the cannon?
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Right?
Speaker 4 (22:51):
And that's that's where this disconnect, this crossfire starts occurring.
Is suddenly Protestants start saying that the evidence for the
canon is it comes too late. And okay, you want
to say it came too late. Well, let's look at
the evidence that you claim in the case for Christ
that was early improves the gospels. Okay, you claim that
it's early here, it's late here, they're the same evidence.
(23:14):
Did you notice that That is the point of my
crossfire discussion, is that Protestants are making two different arguments
and not realizing they're talking about the exact same piece
of evidence. So this whole mental framework that the earliest
is the best is called into question when we're talking
about the cannon.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
You see, this is the thing I've always said, Matthew,
early on in my relationship with God, is I didn't
believe that Jesus went to the cross for denominations. And
you know, just like even in the political process of
where our country is right now, which is driving me crazy,
is I think we've got to get rid of parties.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Parties divide us, just like.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
George Washington said it from the Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Actually, be careful, be careful.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
And here we are, and you know, we got all
this struggle going on, and they're trying to find an
answer here on earth when the answer is in heaven.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
Yeah. No, it's I should say, Protestants have loved my book.
Every Protestant who's ever read it has had nothing but
five star reviews, et cetera. It is a topic that
they enjoy. They understand the approach that I'm taking, which
is purely evidence based, and it's not an attack on
their beliefs as you say about denominations, etc. There are
(24:27):
many ways to resolve this conflict that I'm pointing out.
You could be Catholic, you could be Orthodox, you could
be a kind of Protestant who accepts a Catholic Bible.
That's all I'm addressing is what is the right Bible?
What are the right books? You know, at a very
preliminary stage, it hasn't offended anybody yet, everybody's liked it.
And it's not really a pro Catholic point that I'm making,
(24:49):
nor an anti Protestant point that I'm making. What I'm
saying is these Catholic books that the books of Catholics
accept I think should be in everybody's Bible. But regardless,
all I'm doing is showing you the evidence and leaving
it for you to decide. The key thing is that
I'm showing that I've collected all this evidence. I've done
the work. Now everyone can use it as a basis
(25:10):
of discussion go forward. Well.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
As you concluded in your book, kenon Crossbier, is that
if we're not getting the whole story, are we missing
out on some blessings here that God has for us?
Speaker 4 (25:22):
Right? Absolutely? And you know, if you look at the
very earliest Christians and what they have to say about
these books. Some of the very basic things they're telling
you is a that they are facing martyrdom of the
very earliest Christian fathers, as they're called, that wrote extensively.
The names that come up all the time, seven out
(25:43):
of ten of them were martyred. They were tortured and
killed for their beliefs. As that was happening, they are
preaching to other Christians who are about to be martyred.
They preach a book called too mccaby as they are dying,
many of them their last words allude to Macaby was
part of that early martyrd church, and it is. It
(26:03):
includes a story of martyrdom that was very spiritually fulfilling,
involving a woman with seven sons and all seven sons
are martyred. This was a key part of these Christians beliefs.
Whether that makes it part of your Bible, that's a
different question. But understand that the very earliest Christians went
to their deaths talking to maccabees believing it was divinely inspired,
(26:27):
et cetera. You know that that's powerful stuff, and you
know it has relevance to what we're facing today.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Did Jesus refer to the uh to these books that
we're talking about.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
Absolutely, I quote such things as the Evangelical Theological Biblical
Theological Commentary, where the evangelical scholars are telling you these
are references. There are clear references to two Maccabees in
the Epistle to the Hebrews and in the Gospel of Matthew.
And in the Gospel of Matthew it is the words
of Jesus alluding to the woman with seven sons. It's
(27:02):
not really all that arguable in a as long as
you don't argue it in a vacuum. If you argue
it in a vacuum, people can just say I don't
see it. I don't see it. I don't see it.
But if you put this in the case for Christ,
where you are saying, well, did you know, the question
that skeptics will raise is did Jesus claim to be God?
And you will see people say, well, yeah, he used
the phrase I am, which is an illusion. Back to
(27:26):
the God of the Old Testament, like exactly, it's an illusion.
You use illusions as evidence, you recognize illusions. In fact,
prophecies are nothing but illusions. They don't there's no prophecy
in the Old Testament that says Jesus Christ by name.
It's an allusion to something. You say, it's fulfilled. You
can't ignore illusions as evidence. They exist, they are real,
(27:46):
They can be a debated a little bit, etc. But
if you apply a fair, honest standard, it's inarguable that
two maccabees is referenced in Hebrews for example.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Right, Well, as you say, you start connecting the dots,
and you look at what some would identify as prophecy,
and you look at Jesus's life, and you go, how
many of these illusions, as you put it, did the
birth of Jesus fulfilled?
Speaker 4 (28:15):
And that's some of where my book, you know, the
research that would become my book derives from. Is if
you look at Josh mcdow's evidence that demands a verdict.
So this is a famous book, seven hundred pages of
evidence showing you that trying to prove that Christ rose
from the dead. Very good book, part of my conversion.
But onlike page thirty of my copy, he says, you know,
(28:39):
he's answering the question of well, what about these extra books,
and he says, well, those books are never quoted in
the New Testament. But the books that the Protestant accepts
are quoted and referenced hundreds of times. You notice what
he just did. He went from only quotes for those
books to quotes and references for his books. Those references
are ninety to ninety nine percent of all of the
(29:01):
alleged quotes of the Old Testament are not quotes at all.
They are references, They are illusions. People don't realize how
rare quotation was in ancient times. Again, because you were
dealing with scrolls and people writing from memory, et cetera.
They're mostly doing it out of their head. They're mostly
paraphrasing and alluding to things. And you have to be
fair about that one way or the other. Either you
(29:23):
have very few quotes of the Old Testament, of even
the Protestant Old Testament, or you have lots of references
for both, and you have to analyze that. But that's
a crucial piece of it. And so if you look
at I just saw it yesterday, you know there are
clients that there are five hundred prophecies of Jesus investment,
and that specific when I was okay yesterday claimed three hundred.
(29:45):
You can go through all of those and as I say,
you're not going to find Jesus Christ mentioned by name.
Those prophecies are illusions. They're very clear, all of us
Christians except them, right, But they're only illusions, and you
just have to be fair about that analysis and understanding.
They are persuasive evidence to you know, any person of
goodwill when you're talking about Jesus Christ being prophesies. So
(30:08):
then hold that the exact same standard when we talk
about these other books. Right.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
But Matthew, see, and that's the key in all this
is that are we debating and arguing to win a
debate or an argument, or are we in pursuit of
the truth. Absolutely and the higher calling that God has
for all of us absolutely ignorant, you know.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
And I show this over and over throughout the book.
It's two charts side by side showing you what Protestants
are saying about the canon versus what they said about
the case for Christ. It's over and overlying. You know,
they said this on page three, they say this on
page five. It's just showing you the mental disconnect that
happens to absolutely everybody, and it's happened to Protestants in
(30:52):
this context. They see the mote in the other guy's
eye while ignoring the log in their own, as the
Bible tells us, and they don't recognize that they're having
these two separate conversations. They're telling skeptics, come to us,
come to Jesus because we have all this evidence, but
that Catholic evidence. Don't believe a word of it. And
it guys, it's the same thing, right, And that's the
(31:13):
point of my book is just to make that crystal
clear for people and then we can discuss it from there.
I don't resolve the question as to what to do.
It's just that is the conflict that we all have
to recognize and start thinking in our heads. Okay, now what.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Well, you know, it's interesting because it seems to me
that it is somewhat of an extension of when Jesus
was on earth and the conflict that he had with
the religious you know, fathers and leaders at the time.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
Right, it's absolutely and it's all the same thing. When
you're talking, when you're trying to preach the case for Christ,
case for Christianity to a skeptic, you're dealing with that unfairness,
that unwillingness to open their mind to judge things fairly
and consistentsistently. That exists for them there. It exists with
this presuppositions and conclusions that people already had in their
(32:01):
heads before they met Jesus. The religious leaders at the time,
they had it in their heads a specific image of
what they wanted the world to be like, without being
open minded and say, wait a minute, I don't know
what the world was like. Let God tell me what
the world is like, right right. It's that open mindedness
that suddenly resolves all of us. You see these conflicts
and you start understanding what's going on. But if you're
(32:23):
closed minded about it, you just miss it. You can't
see it.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Well, it's like what we said earlier when we first
started this conversation, Matthew is, the answers don't lie here
on earth. They're in Heaven with the Father. He's got
the answers. So if we refuse to connect with God
and we think, okay, we got to do it at
this you know, at the ground floor, you know, I'm reminded.
In fact, we're just talking about it again this morning. C. S.
(32:48):
Lewis says, aim at heaven and you'll get earth thrown
in aim at Earth, and you'll get neither.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
Yeah, you know, yep. And I So when I've gone
out and I've talked to you know, Protestant interviewers, etc. Us.
Occasionally you'll reach a point in the conversation where they'll
just say, well, I just trusted the scriptures, Like, well,
you've already decided what the scriptures are. You're not asking
God what are the scriptures? Like? You've got to be
open minded and the understand that it is God who
(33:16):
shares with us what the truth is. We don't know
it well.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Well, going back in terms of prophecy, also the word
says we know in part. We prophesy in part pretty
much tells us we don't know it all right, and
so which the Bible also says that when you have
determined things in your mind with limited information, and you
become ideologically fixed or or what the Bible might call
(33:43):
a fool, then you know pretty much God says you
probably don't want to have a whole lot to do
with that person exactly.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
And it's just that closed mindedness that comes to you
rather than, as you were saying earlier, that open minded
pursuit of the truth that is outside of yourself it's
just such a such a dangerous mental condition to put
yourself into.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Well, and the thing is, I want to qualify the
open mindedness because my old mentor used to say, Bill,
you could be so open minded your brains fall out.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
Well, that's not what we're talking about here.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
Okay, you're open minded to seeing the evidence. You're not
open minded to ignoring to the point where you ignore
the evidence. You are open minded and accepting of what's
out there, not as I say, ignoring something and saying, well,
you know, it's sort of a ridiculous standard of proof
that comes to people when they're too open.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
And the fact of the matter is is that God
shows us the evidence. He makes it real. Every day
you wake up, you look out, and if you can't
see the majesty of God.
Speaker 4 (34:44):
And that I can tell you as part of the conversion.
For me, I mean that is the eye opening experiences,
Like just once that shift occurs in your mind and
you start saying, well, oh my goodness, how did I
miss this for forty years? But I did? And I
was disclosed minded. Does anybody I just you know and
see it? Didn't know it? And now that I do,
it's like well, my goodness, it's right there.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Right, And then what a difference for you. And we've
all been there, Matthew, we've all gone through this, and
as I mentioned earlier, by God's grace and mercy, he journeys,
he journeys us through and the fact of the matter
is he's with us every step of the way. In fact,
I was reading a story this morning and was sharing
it with a friend of mine. You know that it's
(35:27):
much like you know your dad as a child, as
he's walking you and you're just learning to walk, you know,
But as a child you just trust your father. He's
got you by the hand, and he's not going to
let you go to face plant. He's going to hold
onto your hand and carry you through as you begin
to develop your walking abilities and getting you through life. Well,
(35:47):
it's the same way as our father in heaven, who's
got us by the hand and he's walking us through
to our final destination. And that picture it was just
so comforting to me this morning to realize again that
no matter what I'm dealing with, the Father has me
by my aunt and that gives me hope, right.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
As absolutely, and as I say, when I look back
on my life. You know, you just see these little
the string of events where the time that he you know,
I was falling and he grabbed me right.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Right, yeah before you face planet. Although all there and
once in a while we can get a booboo.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
He's okay, exactly.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
You know that's how we learned, you know.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
My knees.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
But I didn't face play it right exactly. Well, let's
let's review again the Catholic tradition.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
You know, the Catholic Church included these books that we're
talking about, these apocryphal books, we'll use that term in
its canon, and it was affirmed by earlier councils, like
the Council of Rome in three eighty two a d.
So this had been part of the Catholic tradition all along,
right until I guess Martin Luther.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Yeah. I The claim that the Catholics added the book
does not added the books, does not make a whole
lot of sense, to be honest, when you look into
the history of it, they were already there, They had
already been accepted by earlier councils, et cetera. The Catholic
Church is just confirming what the facts were at the
Council of Trent, and in fact they're confirming what the
Council of Florence, which sometimes gets forgotten by Protestants, happened
(37:19):
right before Martin Luther is born had already confirmed the
books throughout history. So there is that the Middle Ages
are a weird time. Books are very expensive, there are
copies of Bibles that don't have the books, et cetera.
Exactly what to make of all of that is sort
of a bigger picture item of the future. But the
key thing to me is the claim that the Catholics
(37:41):
added the books doesn't make any sense. They just confirmed
what they've viewed as the history going all the way back.
And then my book is, you know, confirming that they
knew what the history right exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
And of course, you know, some would refer to it
as the standardization, which in reference to the Protestants sixty
six books in their canon, which became standard after the
British and Foreign Foreign Bible Society decided they decided to
omit the Epocalypha back in eighteen twenty.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
I mean they decided. So my book, my book is
laser focused on the specific thing, and it did this.
But when you broaden that, you have, as you say,
when did these books actually disappear in the eighteen hundreds
and only for cost saving? You know what? What did
the Jews think of This is a question I keep
having and I address my book. But there are Jews
(38:32):
that have accepted these books, never, never didn't accept them
as far as we know the Ethiopian Jews. There are
books that reappeared in Judaism later, et cetera. Like there's
a whole history out there of things that could strengthen
the case. But I am laser focused on just three things.
What did the Jews? What does Jewish scholarship have to
(38:53):
say on this topic, not Christian scholarship, Jews. What did
the Jews say about these books? They confirmed the Catholic story?
What did the apostles, the evangelists in the Bible say
about these books? What are all those illusions back to
these books? I present them all for any person to
read them, understand what they are, and make your own decisions.
And then the third is what did the early Church?
(39:14):
I wanted to know what every single Christian through four
hundred and fifty a d ever said about these books.
I assemble all of that, put it there for the
reader to understand it that's the piece that was missing.
So to me, at the time that I was looking
into this question, you would find Catholic books that cite
a handful of quotes from fathers, and you would find
Protestant books that quote it a handful of things from fathers,
(39:36):
and I would be like, guys, I don't care what
you cherry picked. I want to know what everybody ever said.
Somebody's got to do this work so that I can
read it. I looked all over the place for that book.
It didn't exist. I have created it, and going forward
to everyone now has it. You can know what every
single Christian ever said about these books. That's the value
(39:57):
that I'm bringing here, as well as all those illusions
that I've found in Protestant Protestant Bible commentaries telling me
that the Bible, that the New Testament is discussing these
old books at certain places.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
See Licies and gentlemen.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
There is value in having an attorney in the house,
you know, with this kind of giftedness.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
Only I mean because they.
Speaker 4 (40:16):
Are retired attorney who had nothing but free time to
do this. That's a piece. It's a long time, and
it took somebody with that interest in those skills, and
that's that's right. What happened?
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Well, because the thing is, you know, as an attorney,
and it's one thing to have tradition and a narrative,
but in the legal field is it documented.
Speaker 4 (40:35):
And no judge in a case, if this actually were
a case, no judge would have listened to either side
of this. They would have said, guys, go do the work.
Go in there and find me all the quotes and
give me all the quotes, right, and this cherry picky
would never have lasted. But it shows you that people
aren't necessarily always arguing or debating in good faith in
that sense that they're not treating it as a real case.
(40:57):
They're just making you said it earlier if they're making
the case to try to win, right, So they pulled
out the handful of quotes that were on their side,
and they're ignoring, well, what did all the other things say?
No one did the work, and in fairness, it would
have been hard to do the work before the internet.
It took me years even with the internet. I you know,
I'm not being judgmental that no one did the work.
(41:17):
My point is it's not been done right.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Well, well, I can't even thank you enough. And I
told you this the first time I met you. This
is just so awesome what you've done. You've done the work,
and the thing is is that you removed it. You've
taken it out of the emotional I mean, even like
today and our debates that we have in our country today,
they're more emotional based than fact base.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
I invented a word, I decatholicize the discussion of the canon.
So it's not a question of, you know, should you
be Catholic. It's a question of whether you have the
right Bible, period, full stop. Nothing else, and I quote
nothing but Protestant scholars. I use Protestant lingo, I do everything.
It's stop thinking about the pope. Let's just focus on
the Bible. Right, do you have the right Bible? Let's
(42:02):
look at the evidence. So that's my approach. I have
found that Protestants love it. So if you are Catholic,
I think you will love my book, and I think
you will love sharing it with your Protestant friends and family,
et cetera. But it is it is directed at Protestants
to be as friendly to them as possible and show
them the evidence.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
I can't imagine that Protestants would not be interested. Like
you said, there's a natural curiosity in Protestants that it's
even in their name.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
They protest right exactly, So.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
It's like, okay, here, here, let's protest about this, but
let's get the facts.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
And the facts now are available.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
This isn't emotional, you know here it is you know,
read it, you decide for yourself. So I can't imagine that.
I mean, this may cause them a little bit because
like most Protestants, they have five or six Bibles on
their shelf right now, and none of them contain the apocrypha,
and so they're probably thinking, okay, I maybe need.
Speaker 4 (42:57):
To The strangest reaction to me like it, I'm honestly
surprised by it is how much the Protestants who've read
the book end up loving the stories actual apocryphal books,
the stories of Susannah and Judith and Tobit, and they
they see connections to their Bible that they never really
focused on before. Because again, these illusions that we're talking
(43:17):
about are things that Protestant scholars are discussing and showing
you where it came from. And now they see that
and they just love that stuff. And I was not
expecting that at all I was, you.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Know, yeah, in your book, you open up, you start
talking about Susannah. I mean it was like, you know,
boom and hit you right.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
Between the eyes.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
That go okay, all right, So explain to our audience.
We got about four minutes left here. Explain to our
audience Susannah and how it fits.
Speaker 4 (43:45):
You mentioned my favorite story, our favorite story. It's a
story about Daniel when he's a child. There's a woman
named Susannah who is wrongly accused by two Jewish men
who had attacked her, Jewish leaders, religious leaders who had
attacked her and tried to force themselves on her. And
she is being accused of adultery and wrongly accused. And
(44:08):
Daniel successfully argues against it as a child. And so
the question is whether this story belongs as part of
the Book of Daniel. That's would be the debate over
the scripture of it. It is my favorite story. It's
a great story. It was accepted as scripture by every
single father in the early Church for four hundred and
fifty years. There is not a single exception. The guy
(44:29):
who is frequently the closest to the Protestant Canadates, a
guy named Jerome Jerome says, I did not reject his
in it, and anyone who claims that I did, it's
lying and slandering me. There's nothing in the early Church
against Sutannah that comes later. And you know, it's an
amazing story. It's amazing to see the evidence. And as
(44:49):
I say, it could easily be a separate book in
the Bible. That's how the sixteen eleven King James version
sets it out. It could be at the beginning or
the end of Daniel. But it's a wonderful piece.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
Yeah, one of those books.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Why I dare say, we hear so little if anything
about Yeah, And.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
Like I said, it's it's my favorite story once I
got into it and it repere it's I you know,
as a lawyer. Maybe it makes sense that it's my
favorite story since it's Daniel kind of being a lawyer.
But it is, you know, just a beautiful story and
uplifting and you see God acting and saving somebody when
they needed it.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Well, Well, give us another. We got three minutes left.
Give us another. Susannah's not Susannah, but another book and
story that is part of the apocryphal Go ahead, Judith, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (45:34):
Judith is alluded to by Paul and his Epistle to
the Corinthians. It is alluded to by Mary and Elizabeth
as you you know, as women, you might expect that
in the Gospel of Luke, and it is absolutely specifically
mentioned by Clement of Rome, who was writing at the
same time as the First as the some of the
(45:55):
books of the New Testament are being written. He specifically
mentions it and his Epistle to the Corinthians. So you
have three people who might have been in corinth preaching
to the Corinthians, Luke, Paul, and Clement referring to Judith.
That is a mountain of evidence for the story of Judith,
you think, And it's it's crazy that people haven't focused
on how that is all tied to one city, one time,
(46:17):
in one place and dealt with. But that it's also
a beautiful story. It's about a Jewish woman who saves
the Jewish people. Judith just means Jewish, So it's not
necessarily a historical story as much as it could be
a historical fiction. That's what Martin Luther thought it was.
He thought it was sort of a beautiful inspirational story,
like job. Maybe it didn't happen, but you should still
(46:39):
be reading it and it's still part of the Bible.
But yeah, that Judith is another one that's fantastic and
people love the story.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
Go ahead, one more, we got time.
Speaker 4 (46:47):
Tob Tobit is about has a lot about angels. In fact,
the angel Raphael comes from Tobit. If you don't have
Tobain in your Bible, you don't have Rafael in your Bible.
And it's a beautiful story the healer exactly, and uh,
and several things that Rafael talks about in Tobit are
then exactly the same as what John shows us in Revelations.
(47:11):
So the idea, these descriptions of heaven and how heaven
is organized and how it looks batch which is very interesting.
You know, we believe that John saw into the afterlife
and saw heaven and his revelation, well that seems to
have happened with Tobot as well.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
Yeah, well you see what you got to look forward to.
Speaker 4 (47:28):
Exactly. It's fascinating stuff. Protestants have loved it, like I said,
because they've never heard any of this. Catholics, at least
you have his chance of hearing.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Look at this, Look at this is the way you
can get some insight from a retired corporate attorney.
Speaker 3 (47:39):
You don't even have to pay his fee.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
All you gotta do is bia his book, okay, because
he's I mean, he's very expensive, as you can tell,
and deservedly so, but here he's made it very affordable
with his book, Canon Crossfire. Does the Protestant Bible blow
up the Case for Christianity? Matthew Mark mccorter. Matthew, thank
you so much. Really, you're such a blessing, and you've
(48:02):
blessed our audience in bringing this to our forefront. And
I know they're going to pick up your book because
they're going to be blessed by it.
Speaker 3 (48:10):
Because we want the whole Gospel.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
We want everything that God intended for us to have,
and you've opened up the gates to this.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
So thank you so much. I appreciate you.
Speaker 4 (48:23):
Thank you, God bless.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Well, God bless you. Matthew mccuin, retired corporate attorney, former atheist,
author of this book, Canon Crossfired as the Protestant Bible
blow up the Case for Christianity. After a near death experience,
Matthew launched a court room style investigation into scripture and
what he discovered will shake your assumptions, and you got
a little bit of a taste for it today. So again,
(48:45):
thank you for sharing a part of your day with us,
and thank you for Matthew for coming on and talking
about his new book that's going to be a wrap
for us. May God bless you and keep you, May
make his face shine upon you, May be gracious unto
you and give you peace.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
God bless
The topics and opinions express in the following show are
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(00:20):
choosing W FOURCY Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Well, hello, glad you could join us. Bill Martinez here
if you're ready, and even if you're not ready, get ready.
We're going to do a deep dive into the Bible.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Our next guest, Matthew Mark mcwarter, and i'll tell you
more about him in just a moment, has written quite
a book called Canon Crossfire. Does the Protestant Bible blow
up the case for Christianity? And I'll tell you, like
I said, put on your seatbelts, because you know, as
we see evil erupting across the globe and revival sweeping
(01:11):
the streets of America, millions are turning to Christ with
burning questions. But what if the answers they seek aren't
found in the pages that most churches preach from. Good question, well,
what if the key to defending the resurrection lies in
the very books that were left behind? Well, Matthew McWaters
I mentioned he's a retired corporate attorney, former atheist, and
(01:35):
author of Cannon Crossfired. Does the Protestant Bible blow up?
The case for Christianity is going to be joining us?
And after a near death experience, Matthew launched a courtroom
style investigation into scripture and what he discovered is going
to shake your assumptions from the Apocrypha to the resurrection.
His findings are bold, evidence based and spiritually electrifying, and
(01:59):
you can learn more at his website Cannon Crossfire dot com.
So buckle up, buttercup. This is one of these conversations
that you won't forget and you'll be glad you joined
us for Matthew, welcome the show.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Good to have you with us.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
Thank you very much, glad to be here. God bless hey,
God bless you.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
I'm so excited to talk to you because you know,
although when we first talked, I'd mentioned that you were
I you know, you were an atheist, but you said
not exactly an atheist, but kind of an atheist. I
don't know, small atheist, I guess. But you know, it's
interesting because after your near death experience, you thought, okay,
(02:38):
maybe I had to check out this Jesus stuff. And
you went into this with a legal background and wiring
in your legal training to make sure that you just
weren't getting duped because up to I guess I got
to imagine up over the years, you know, whenever any
discussion of the Bible or Jesus Christ came up, you
(02:59):
just probably your brain just shut it off and said,
you know, I'm just not I'm not buying it. But
you know, maybe in part you did it out of
durance because you didn't have the whole truth nothing but
and you hadn't studied it. But all of a sudden,
after this near death experience, it was time for you
to do a deep dive.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Is that fair to say?
Speaker 4 (03:21):
Yeah? I mean literally, the only reason I read the
book was because my name's Matthew Mark a quarter I
was named after it.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
So I at least at least two parts of the gospel.
Matthew Art and your.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
Mom should have added Luke and John to really get
make me.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
I have been bitter my whole life because whenever people
ask me where is Luke and John, I'm like, where
is my twin? Why did I not have a twin?
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Right right exactly?
Speaker 4 (03:45):
But I read the book. I actually there were other
books that you know. There was something by a collection
of four Western stories from Dane Gray that my grandfather
had given me, and they were all the same bucket list. Like,
I didn't Hickley select religious books to read. It was
just all the books I hadn't read yet. Yes, so
that's what happened. I just started reading it started wondering.
(04:06):
I'm told a lot of pastors say this that lawyers
convert more frequently than other professions because we're used to
seeing guyewitness testimony. We know what that looks like, That's
what the Gospels are, We recognize that, and then the
question becomes, well is this true eyewitness testimony or fake
eyewitness testimony? And from there forward it was It was
(04:28):
just an investigation. And it went on for several years
of merely a mechanical exercise of me being curious. Before
I started really believing and started moving into a natural
religious sphere. I was as you say, a small a atheist.
I didn't hate religion. I just didn't care. And part
of that not caring was I didn't even know why
(04:50):
people went to church. So I kind of converted myself.
You know. There was no church converting me. There was
no person converting me. It was just a pile of books.
And along the way in the conversion, I had to realize,
oh wait a minute, I have to go to church.
But that came later, Like I didn't. I originally sort
of thought of Christianity without a church. You know why
(05:11):
bother I got other things to do on Sunday.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
So anyway, that was a big part though, foundationally about
our faith is that it is a personal relationship exactly.
That's where it starts, and that's why it's so important
that you honor that relationship, those those initial depths that
you take into your faith. So when you decide to
(05:35):
plant your feet in a body of Christ a church,
that you're careful about where you plant your seed.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Right, yeah, absolutely, and that that is the spiritual risk,
religious Christian way of looking at it. To be honest,
as an outsider, I was, I ain't joining your cult
until you know, like you got to prove it to
me first. So that's why it was such a written thing.
So either way, whichever side of the coin you're looking at,
it's a crucial part of the decision as to you know,
(06:08):
what what religion is. That it's that personal relationship, also
that it's corporate, that it's it's collective and communal and social,
you know, that comes through the Bible. That and it
all leads to the same place. But there's there's many
ways of looking at it, in ways of pointing you
to the same same destination in the end, which is
to go to the right church exactly.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
And I got to imagine for you, first of all,
being an attorney. But the other thing is that you
put years, lots of years in time into really making
you know, coming to make this commitment. Many people, it's
it's almost like we used to say in California, because
I grew up close to the beach, it.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Was like surfs up.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
You know, It's just it's a surfs up emotional kind
of thing, and and so and and in some ways
that can tend to be a little bit surfacing, they're
really the depth of somebody's relationship with God. As a
former pastor, friend of mine used to say is about
as deep as a dime. And that's unfortunate because in
(07:10):
those situations, especially if you happen to run into them
in church and you think, hey, this is a fellow believer,
and you know, all of a sudden you go, well maybe.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Not yeah, absolutely, and I I but trying. You know,
this whole experience of me writing the book and talking
to people about it and having readers, et cetera. I
am such a strange person. I'm not like other people
in many ways, and one of them is exactly that
kind of journey of it. Never once occurred to me
to just have a you know, flash and all of
(07:40):
a sudden it was there. But to me it was
a long intellectual exercise and that is not normal, but
part of it because I am that kind of person.
The way I came to it. I think that's why
I did all this work, and why now that I've
done the work, it's so easy for anyone else to
see the points that I'm making and learn about what
I'm doing. But somebody had to be so interested in
(08:00):
this question that they would go to the depths that
I went, and I guess that was me.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Well, you know, you've done a lot of the hard work.
You know, for some of us that would not would
not do that. You know, our relationship and our wiring
and the way God designed us, just like he designed you.
He knew that you were going to go and do
the deep dive that I mean, he he designed you
that way.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
And so that when he held off. I think part
of the reason why I wasn't Christian my whole life
is God saying I needed He wanted somebody, and he
picked me to wait until they had a lifetime of
skill and a reason to do all this research and
to look at two questions at the same time without
really caring what the answers were to either of them.
(08:44):
One is Christianity true? And the other one is which
Bible am I supposed to be reading? And it was
looking at that at the exact same moment that let
me see this cannon crossfire that my book's about. And
I don't know how many people would have seen this
or have seen it over time, and it's just such
a crucial part of how I looked at things, and
as I said, led me to do all of this work.
(09:05):
I feel like God had a reason for everything that
he did.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Well, just like he had a reason to bring two
knuckleheads together like.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
You and me.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
I have this conversation with all due respect, I mean,
because I'll tell you I mean. I have considered myself
a theologian. I graduated from Bible College. I study the.
Speaker 3 (09:25):
Word of God.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
I'm in it on a regular basis. I took Jesus
for his word, and when he said that man does
not live by bread alone, but by every word that
comes from the mouth of God, I figure if Jesus
said that, I'm going.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
To take note here, So.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
You know, I took him at his word, and I
look back experientially in the journey that I've been on
that God, in his grace and mercy, has allowed me
to take.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
I'm grateful for it.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I did not ask that question, and I appreciate and
respect that you did, because it really takes us down,
you know, an important and critical road that I think
it's gonna bless people who are tuning in and who
will watch this segment, because it'll cause them to ask
(10:13):
other questions, like you know what. I had that question
in the back of my mind. I didn't ask it,
but I'm gonna ask it. And Matthew has encouraged me
to do that. But look before we get into that,
for just a moment. A couple times now we've talked
and I've mentioned your near death experience.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Do you mind telling us that story?
Speaker 4 (10:30):
Yeah, I was a successful attorney, prime on my life
forty three I think when it all started. And then
one day my father got cancer. So I was told
to go get my own test. And I assumed I
would find out twenty years from now that I have cancer,
but that right now would just be a warning about
(10:51):
it for now that I had cancer far worse than
my dad.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Oh wow.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
And so they played an operation to deal with the cancer.
Days later. This all happen. Within a month, I had
what's called a widow maker heart attack. It's the most
dangerous heart attack. About ninety nine percent of people die
die right there on the floor from it immediately.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, they measure They measure that in seconds, I think, exactly.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
And it's just a rush to see how fast you
can get to the hospital. Among other things. That I
got lucky or God was looking out for me, however
you want to look at it was. This all happened
in Houston, Texas. And I can assure you if it
had happened in the afternoon, i'd be dead because there's
no way you're getting a hospital at a time. But
luckily traffic alone will kill you in Houstone exactly. And
this happened in the middle of the night. I managed
(11:34):
to get to the hospital in time. They performed the operation,
saved my life. But then the cancer treatment's delayed, you know,
all the stuff. So it's you know, shocking numbers of
shocking percentage chance that I had to stay alive, and
yet somehow I did. And that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
I mean, here you are, You're dealing with a cancer diagnosis,
and as if that's not enough, hey, let's throw in
a little widow maker heart problem right.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Exactly, And all for a guy who had just passed
a physical like right beforehand. I mean, like it's crazy,
but you know, as I learned, those physicals are not
the most perfect diagnosis of whether you really are healthy.
But it just came as a shock. And so as
I was recovering from all of this, the question was, well,
I might not have a long time to live. I
(12:21):
really wasn't spiritual at this point. As I was saying
it was just like, literally, what do I want to
do before I die, And some of that answer was
read some books, and that's how I started down this journey.
So it was still years ahead before I really became
spiritual about looking back at all that. At the time,
I would have just said I got lucky, et cetera.
But like now I can sort of you can see
God working all long, right, But at the time, I
(12:43):
wouldn't have said that. And it, like I said, it
just came as a shock. It happens to other people.
Just happened to me when I was young, and you know,
it was definitely life altering, but I had already had
plans to retire young. So I then years later, I retire,
I focus on these books and I did all this research.
So that's that's really where it all comes from, is
(13:05):
just having that free time and having the inclination to,
because of this event, to do the do the looking
into the research.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
So you mentioned Pos's pox.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
He's fine. His cancer they can't operate on so it's
just a matter of you know, dealing with it. So
but he is fine, doing great. Seventy five. In my family,
it is shocking that anyone made it to the age
of sixty. So the fact that my dad my mom
are both alive. Is kind of amazing. My grandparents all
died there, so you know, and both my mom and
(13:39):
my dad had major heart problems and other problems along
the way too. So but do it fine, So we're good.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Well, just like you, you know, it ain't over until
it's over until God says.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
So right, he's hard to kill.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
He says, when we're coming and when we're leaving.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
I mean, there's just no absolutely right, it's just and
even how we have, even how we exit. Yeah, I
mean he's got it down, you know, as the word says,
he knows the end from the beginning, so we can
rest in that. Well that's quite the story. So here
you go through this and then you ask these two questions.
(14:14):
All right, I've got a Protestant Bible and i got.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
A Catholic Bible, and that's exactly what happened. So I'm
just I just want to read the books I'm named after.
So I went on Amazon and say, said, okay, what
by a Bible? And it's like, well, there's you know,
radically different translations. They all come with different commentaries from
all these different denominations. And then you find out the
Orthodox Protestants and Catholics have three completely different Bibles. So
(14:39):
about a box of bibles, not just a Bible.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
And so and so your study takes you through all
these Bibles. When you say that they're all radically different,
isn't there I mean there's some core books, I mean
absolutely and beliefs.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Yes, there's You know, if you're a Protestant, if you
read a Catholic Bible, you would love ninety percent of it,
and vice versa. Nine percent of it wouldn't bother you,
even though it's a little different from what you're used
to or what you truly believe whatever. And then one
percent would be what you'd argue over. And of course
all we do is argue.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Well that's hey, it's it's all part you know, it's
my Jewish friend says, you know, all Jews argue, and
so we're all, you know, we're all from that heritage.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
So yeah, okay, welcome to the club.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
Yeah we joined them, yes exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
So, as I mentioned, we got sixty six books in
the Protestant Bible and seventy three books in the in
the Catholic Bible. So talk about you know the difference
and also the terminology because some people will hear the
apocrypha and may not understand what that what that means,
(15:49):
or the Jutero canonical books.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
Yeah, so judoro chnonical is usually the more polite term.
The apocrypha is kind of an insult. In goal terms,
we would call it a conclusory statement. Uh, if something
is apocrypha, it's not scripture. So by using that term,
you're already you know.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
You're already indicting.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
Yeah, you've already made your decision. You're you're highlighting it.
So probably the better term is due to orcononical. But
most Protestants use apocrypha. So my book, which is really yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Because you can't say dodo cron you realize that's such
a tongue twister. I mean, I run across that I
can't say, and I keep thinking, okay, God, please let
me just let it, let it flow from my tongue.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
But I have to really think and through.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Get get I get the doutero right, and then canonical Okay,
all right, I have to I have to think about
it exactly.
Speaker 4 (16:39):
And it's not an easily defined term even if you're
using the term, so you got to be careful with
it to my mind is merely the books that Catholics
accept and Protestants do not. That is the Doudo organic.
But as I say in my own book, I actually
use the word apocrypha because I'm really talking to Protestants,
so I use their language when I'm talking to But
as terminology goes, it's it's not a good word and
(17:00):
shouldn't be used for these books. Really, when you're talking
in this where you're arguing or discussing whether or not
they are authentic, you should not be using the apocryphy, right.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
And the apocrypha consists of seven books, yeah, as you
write about in Canon Crossfire Bus, additions to Esther and Daniel,
and so I hope you're taking notes here exactly.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
And the thing the thing about it, as it's discussed
in my book, these are kind of objects, right, So
if you think about it as a trial, they're the
in dispute in the trial. But you don't actually have
to know all that much about the books. You don't
have to have read the books. We're just going to
talk about them. And you know, as you say, there
there are full books, there are pieces of books, There
(17:45):
are things that could be full books set off as
a full book or included as part of others. Because
Daniel is an anthology, it is a collection of stories already,
so then it's a question of what story should be
part of the anthology. And so Susannah, for example, could
stand off on its own. It does so in the
sixteen to eleven King James version, or it could be
(18:07):
part of Daniel as it is in Catholic books. It's
at the back of Daniel, or it could be at
the front of Daniel as it is in Orthodox books.
Because even order within Daniel, you know, is a choice.
It's all editorial.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Well, and what people need to remember is the Bible
originally they didn't have they didn't have chapters, I mean,
you know, and didn't have numbers.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
I mean, it was all versus no chapters, and it
the technology of the book had not yet been invented,
so that what we call a codex. But you know,
the physical concept of putting all these things inside a
binder and you know, tying them up on the left
hand side, et cetera, that didn't exist. It's all scrolls
early on right, and that's part of the you know
(18:48):
issues kind of I don't really deal with it in
my book. But it's it's a question about this all,
this whole concept of a canon, a list of books
that the correct books to be in the Bible, that
really kind of emergent just later because of the technology
of the book. Until then, the Bible was a pile
of scrolls, right.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
But but initially though the apocrypha you know, uh, I
guess we could say was was all part of it.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I mean goes back and.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
It's all the way Jewish books. So the first thing,
because I'm always amazed when I talk to the Protestants
on the street about this whatever, you will run into
a large number of them that say, well, Catholics invented
those books and added them. No, no, no, no, they
are Jewish books exactly. They pre exist christ They were
out there. The question is who was accepting these books,
Were they really accepted as scripture, et cetera. That is
(19:37):
not at all the same question as you know, when
they were made, and you know they they pre exist
price and and have known dates in certain cases, known
translation dates even in other cases. So it's it's you know,
it's a question about Judaism. Really at the heart of
it is what what was the Jewish scripture? What is
(19:58):
it that we're supposed to be using and not using
as Christian to derive come from Judea?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, but interesting though, and what comes out right away
for me, Matthew, As Jesus said, not a dot or
tittle would be removed, you know that everything would be fulfilled. Well,
if that's the case and you're not dealing with the
whole scripture and all the books of the Bible, then
you're kind of in conflict with what Jesus said.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
Yeah, and I so my book The Canon cross Righter
the subtitles does the Protestant Bible blow up the case
for Christianity? And every once in a while run into
Catholics who say, well, protests are never going to read this,
and you know, because it's anti Protestant, et cetera. It's
actually not anti Protestant at all. First of all, but
the second is, if you read any Protestant book on
the Bible, particularly on the Canon, it starts with a
(20:47):
long explanation of we better be right on the Canon,
because if we're wrong on that, we're wrong on everything. Right.
It is the single most important issue of all of
Protestant thinking in theology and philosophy and logic, all of it.
It's all off the Bible and being correct at the
very beginning. So that's part of my book is explaining
how important this is and too, even to considering the
(21:09):
rest of Protestant thinking, you have to start with this.
So when you you quote the Jesus about the every
jot and tittle, the Protestants would agree with you. And
in point of fact, one of the reasons that I
this is the book that I wrote is that Protestants
love this topic. They love scripture. They want to talk
about scripture, and discussing what really is authentic scripture is
(21:30):
right up their alley. So this is a fascinating thing
for them as well. They would agree with what Jesus said,
they don't necessarily agree on the result. But that's the
question that we're here to talk about, right is what
are what were the johns and tittles? Right?
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Right? Exactly?
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Well, and when you consider the apocryphy, as you said, rightly,
so these are Jewish books, okay, And the in the
arena of evidence you always look, especially when things are
closer to the occurrence, right, uh, eyewitness reports, whatever, it is,
the closer to that point of contact that validates or
(22:08):
heightens the value of said testimony right or evidence.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Absolutely, and Protestants will stress that point in the case
for Christ, where the earliest evidence is generally considered the
best evidence, but they also almost all of their theology
and their their argumentation with Catholics, et cetera, is a
claim that they feel that they have the original Church,
the original Bible, the original preaching of Jesus and the
(22:33):
apostles before the Catholic Church ruined him right or before
for the Church, you know, would get ruined. That's the
general mindset of what they're saying, right, And their question
that I'm addressing, you know, back in the face, is
is that accurate about the cannon?
Speaker 3 (22:51):
Right?
Speaker 4 (22:51):
And that's that's where this disconnect, this crossfire starts occurring.
Is suddenly Protestants start saying that the evidence for the
canon is it comes too late. And okay, you want
to say it came too late. Well, let's look at
the evidence that you claim in the case for Christ
that was early improves the gospels. Okay, you claim that
it's early here, it's late here, they're the same evidence.
(23:14):
Did you notice that That is the point of my
crossfire discussion, is that Protestants are making two different arguments
and not realizing they're talking about the exact same piece
of evidence. So this whole mental framework that the earliest
is the best is called into question when we're talking
about the cannon.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
You see, this is the thing I've always said, Matthew,
early on in my relationship with God, is I didn't
believe that Jesus went to the cross for denominations. And
you know, just like even in the political process of
where our country is right now, which is driving me crazy,
is I think we've got to get rid of parties.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Parties divide us, just like.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
George Washington said it from the Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Actually, be careful, be careful.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
And here we are, and you know, we got all
this struggle going on, and they're trying to find an
answer here on earth when the answer is in heaven.
Speaker 4 (24:06):
Yeah. No, it's I should say, Protestants have loved my book.
Every Protestant who's ever read it has had nothing but
five star reviews, et cetera. It is a topic that
they enjoy. They understand the approach that I'm taking, which
is purely evidence based, and it's not an attack on
their beliefs as you say about denominations, etc. There are
(24:27):
many ways to resolve this conflict that I'm pointing out.
You could be Catholic, you could be Orthodox, you could
be a kind of Protestant who accepts a Catholic Bible.
That's all I'm addressing is what is the right Bible?
What are the right books? You know, at a very
preliminary stage, it hasn't offended anybody yet, everybody's liked it.
And it's not really a pro Catholic point that I'm making,
(24:49):
nor an anti Protestant point that I'm making. What I'm
saying is these Catholic books that the books of Catholics
accept I think should be in everybody's Bible. But regardless,
all I'm doing is showing you the evidence and leaving
it for you to decide. The key thing is that
I'm showing that I've collected all this evidence. I've done
the work. Now everyone can use it as a basis
(25:10):
of discussion go forward. Well.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
As you concluded in your book, kenon Crossbier, is that
if we're not getting the whole story, are we missing
out on some blessings here that God has for us?
Speaker 4 (25:22):
Right? Absolutely? And you know, if you look at the
very earliest Christians and what they have to say about
these books. Some of the very basic things they're telling
you is a that they are facing martyrdom of the
very earliest Christian fathers, as they're called, that wrote extensively.
The names that come up all the time, seven out
(25:43):
of ten of them were martyred. They were tortured and
killed for their beliefs. As that was happening, they are
preaching to other Christians who are about to be martyred.
They preach a book called too mccaby as they are dying,
many of them their last words allude to Macaby was
part of that early martyrd church, and it is. It
(26:03):
includes a story of martyrdom that was very spiritually fulfilling,
involving a woman with seven sons and all seven sons
are martyred. This was a key part of these Christians beliefs.
Whether that makes it part of your Bible, that's a
different question. But understand that the very earliest Christians went
to their deaths talking to maccabees believing it was divinely inspired,
(26:27):
et cetera. You know that that's powerful stuff, and you
know it has relevance to what we're facing today.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Did Jesus refer to the uh to these books that
we're talking about.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
Absolutely, I quote such things as the Evangelical Theological Biblical
Theological Commentary, where the evangelical scholars are telling you these
are references. There are clear references to two Maccabees in
the Epistle to the Hebrews and in the Gospel of Matthew.
And in the Gospel of Matthew it is the words
of Jesus alluding to the woman with seven sons. It's
(27:02):
not really all that arguable in a as long as
you don't argue it in a vacuum. If you argue
it in a vacuum, people can just say I don't
see it. I don't see it. I don't see it.
But if you put this in the case for Christ,
where you are saying, well, did you know, the question
that skeptics will raise is did Jesus claim to be God?
And you will see people say, well, yeah, he used
the phrase I am, which is an illusion. Back to
(27:26):
the God of the Old Testament, like exactly, it's an illusion.
You use illusions as evidence, you recognize illusions. In fact,
prophecies are nothing but illusions. They don't there's no prophecy
in the Old Testament that says Jesus Christ by name.
It's an allusion to something. You say, it's fulfilled. You
can't ignore illusions as evidence. They exist, they are real,
(27:46):
They can be a debated a little bit, etc. But
if you apply a fair, honest standard, it's inarguable that
two maccabees is referenced in Hebrews for example.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Right, Well, as you say, you start connecting the dots,
and you look at what some would identify as prophecy,
and you look at Jesus's life, and you go, how
many of these illusions, as you put it, did the
birth of Jesus fulfilled?
Speaker 4 (28:15):
And that's some of where my book, you know, the
research that would become my book derives from. Is if
you look at Josh mcdow's evidence that demands a verdict.
So this is a famous book, seven hundred pages of
evidence showing you that trying to prove that Christ rose
from the dead. Very good book, part of my conversion.
But onlike page thirty of my copy, he says, you know,
(28:39):
he's answering the question of well, what about these extra books,
and he says, well, those books are never quoted in
the New Testament. But the books that the Protestant accepts
are quoted and referenced hundreds of times. You notice what
he just did. He went from only quotes for those
books to quotes and references for his books. Those references
are ninety to ninety nine percent of all of the
(29:01):
alleged quotes of the Old Testament are not quotes at all.
They are references, They are illusions. People don't realize how
rare quotation was in ancient times. Again, because you were
dealing with scrolls and people writing from memory, et cetera.
They're mostly doing it out of their head. They're mostly
paraphrasing and alluding to things. And you have to be
fair about that one way or the other. Either you
(29:23):
have very few quotes of the Old Testament, of even
the Protestant Old Testament, or you have lots of references
for both, and you have to analyze that. But that's
a crucial piece of it. And so if you look
at I just saw it yesterday, you know there are
clients that there are five hundred prophecies of Jesus investment,
and that specific when I was okay yesterday claimed three hundred.
(29:45):
You can go through all of those and as I say,
you're not going to find Jesus Christ mentioned by name.
Those prophecies are illusions. They're very clear, all of us
Christians except them, right, But they're only illusions, and you
just have to be fair about that analysis and understanding.
They are persuasive evidence to you know, any person of
goodwill when you're talking about Jesus Christ being prophesies. So
(30:08):
then hold that the exact same standard when we talk
about these other books. Right.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
But Matthew, see, and that's the key in all this
is that are we debating and arguing to win a
debate or an argument, or are we in pursuit of
the truth. Absolutely and the higher calling that God has
for all of us absolutely ignorant, you know.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
And I show this over and over throughout the book.
It's two charts side by side showing you what Protestants
are saying about the canon versus what they said about
the case for Christ. It's over and overlying. You know,
they said this on page three, they say this on
page five. It's just showing you the mental disconnect that
happens to absolutely everybody, and it's happened to Protestants in
(30:52):
this context. They see the mote in the other guy's
eye while ignoring the log in their own, as the
Bible tells us, and they don't recognize that they're having
these two separate conversations. They're telling skeptics, come to us,
come to Jesus because we have all this evidence, but
that Catholic evidence. Don't believe a word of it. And
it guys, it's the same thing, right, And that's the
(31:13):
point of my book is just to make that crystal
clear for people and then we can discuss it from there.
I don't resolve the question as to what to do.
It's just that is the conflict that we all have
to recognize and start thinking in our heads. Okay, now what.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Well, you know, it's interesting because it seems to me
that it is somewhat of an extension of when Jesus
was on earth and the conflict that he had with
the religious you know, fathers and leaders at the time.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
Right, it's absolutely and it's all the same thing. When
you're talking, when you're trying to preach the case for Christ,
case for Christianity to a skeptic, you're dealing with that unfairness,
that unwillingness to open their mind to judge things fairly
and consistentsistently. That exists for them there. It exists with
this presuppositions and conclusions that people already had in their
(32:01):
heads before they met Jesus. The religious leaders at the time,
they had it in their heads a specific image of
what they wanted the world to be like, without being
open minded and say, wait a minute, I don't know
what the world was like. Let God tell me what
the world is like, right right. It's that open mindedness
that suddenly resolves all of us. You see these conflicts
and you start understanding what's going on. But if you're
(32:23):
closed minded about it, you just miss it. You can't
see it.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Well, it's like what we said earlier when we first
started this conversation, Matthew is, the answers don't lie here
on earth. They're in Heaven with the Father. He's got
the answers. So if we refuse to connect with God
and we think, okay, we got to do it at
this you know, at the ground floor, you know, I'm reminded.
In fact, we're just talking about it again this morning. C. S.
(32:48):
Lewis says, aim at heaven and you'll get earth thrown
in aim at Earth, and you'll get neither.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
Yeah, you know, yep. And I So when I've gone
out and I've talked to you know, Protestant interviewers, etc. Us.
Occasionally you'll reach a point in the conversation where they'll
just say, well, I just trusted the scriptures, Like, well,
you've already decided what the scriptures are. You're not asking
God what are the scriptures? Like? You've got to be
open minded and the understand that it is God who
(33:16):
shares with us what the truth is. We don't know
it well.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Well, going back in terms of prophecy, also the word
says we know in part. We prophesy in part pretty
much tells us we don't know it all right, and
so which the Bible also says that when you have
determined things in your mind with limited information, and you
become ideologically fixed or or what the Bible might call
(33:43):
a fool, then you know pretty much God says you
probably don't want to have a whole lot to do
with that person exactly.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
And it's just that closed mindedness that comes to you
rather than, as you were saying earlier, that open minded
pursuit of the truth that is outside of yourself it's
just such a such a dangerous mental condition to put
yourself into.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Well, and the thing is, I want to qualify the
open mindedness because my old mentor used to say, Bill,
you could be so open minded your brains fall out.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
Well, that's not what we're talking about here.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
Okay, you're open minded to seeing the evidence. You're not
open minded to ignoring to the point where you ignore
the evidence. You are open minded and accepting of what's
out there, not as I say, ignoring something and saying, well,
you know, it's sort of a ridiculous standard of proof
that comes to people when they're too open.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
And the fact of the matter is is that God
shows us the evidence. He makes it real. Every day
you wake up, you look out, and if you can't
see the majesty of God.
Speaker 4 (34:44):
And that I can tell you as part of the conversion.
For me, I mean that is the eye opening experiences,
Like just once that shift occurs in your mind and
you start saying, well, oh my goodness, how did I
miss this for forty years? But I did? And I
was disclosed minded. Does anybody I just you know and
see it? Didn't know it? And now that I do,
it's like well, my goodness, it's right there.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Right, And then what a difference for you. And we've
all been there, Matthew, we've all gone through this, and
as I mentioned earlier, by God's grace and mercy, he journeys,
he journeys us through and the fact of the matter
is he's with us every step of the way. In fact,
I was reading a story this morning and was sharing
it with a friend of mine. You know that it's
(35:27):
much like you know your dad as a child, as
he's walking you and you're just learning to walk, you know,
But as a child you just trust your father. He's
got you by the hand, and he's not going to
let you go to face plant. He's going to hold
onto your hand and carry you through as you begin
to develop your walking abilities and getting you through life. Well,
(35:47):
it's the same way as our father in heaven, who's
got us by the hand and he's walking us through
to our final destination. And that picture it was just
so comforting to me this morning to realize again that
no matter what I'm dealing with, the Father has me
by my aunt and that gives me hope, right.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
As absolutely, and as I say, when I look back
on my life. You know, you just see these little
the string of events where the time that he you know,
I was falling and he grabbed me right.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Right, yeah before you face planet. Although all there and
once in a while we can get a booboo.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
He's okay, exactly.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
You know that's how we learned, you know.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
My knees.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
But I didn't face play it right exactly. Well, let's
let's review again the Catholic tradition.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
You know, the Catholic Church included these books that we're
talking about, these apocryphal books, we'll use that term in
its canon, and it was affirmed by earlier councils, like
the Council of Rome in three eighty two a d.
So this had been part of the Catholic tradition all along,
right until I guess Martin Luther.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Yeah. I The claim that the Catholics added the book
does not added the books, does not make a whole
lot of sense, to be honest, when you look into
the history of it, they were already there, They had
already been accepted by earlier councils, et cetera. The Catholic
Church is just confirming what the facts were at the
Council of Trent, and in fact they're confirming what the
Council of Florence, which sometimes gets forgotten by Protestants, happened
(37:19):
right before Martin Luther is born had already confirmed the
books throughout history. So there is that the Middle Ages
are a weird time. Books are very expensive, there are
copies of Bibles that don't have the books, et cetera.
Exactly what to make of all of that is sort
of a bigger picture item of the future. But the
key thing to me is the claim that the Catholics
(37:41):
added the books doesn't make any sense. They just confirmed
what they've viewed as the history going all the way back.
And then my book is, you know, confirming that they
knew what the history right exactly.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
And of course, you know, some would refer to it
as the standardization, which in reference to the Protestants sixty
six books in their canon, which became standard after the
British and Foreign Foreign Bible Society decided they decided to
omit the Epocalypha back in eighteen twenty.
Speaker 4 (38:12):
I mean they decided. So my book, my book is
laser focused on the specific thing, and it did this.
But when you broaden that, you have, as you say,
when did these books actually disappear in the eighteen hundreds
and only for cost saving? You know what? What did
the Jews think of This is a question I keep
having and I address my book. But there are Jews
(38:32):
that have accepted these books, never, never didn't accept them
as far as we know the Ethiopian Jews. There are
books that reappeared in Judaism later, et cetera. Like there's
a whole history out there of things that could strengthen
the case. But I am laser focused on just three things.
What did the Jews? What does Jewish scholarship have to
(38:53):
say on this topic, not Christian scholarship, Jews. What did
the Jews say about these books? They confirmed the Catholic story?
What did the apostles, the evangelists in the Bible say
about these books? What are all those illusions back to
these books? I present them all for any person to
read them, understand what they are, and make your own decisions.
And then the third is what did the early Church?
(39:14):
I wanted to know what every single Christian through four
hundred and fifty a d ever said about these books.
I assemble all of that, put it there for the
reader to understand it that's the piece that was missing.
So to me, at the time that I was looking
into this question, you would find Catholic books that cite
a handful of quotes from fathers, and you would find
Protestant books that quote it a handful of things from fathers,
(39:36):
and I would be like, guys, I don't care what
you cherry picked. I want to know what everybody ever said.
Somebody's got to do this work so that I can
read it. I looked all over the place for that book.
It didn't exist. I have created it, and going forward
to everyone now has it. You can know what every
single Christian ever said about these books. That's the value
(39:57):
that I'm bringing here, as well as all those illusions
that I've found in Protestant Protestant Bible commentaries telling me
that the Bible, that the New Testament is discussing these
old books at certain places.
Speaker 3 (40:09):
See Licies and gentlemen.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
There is value in having an attorney in the house,
you know, with this kind of giftedness.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
Only I mean because they.
Speaker 4 (40:16):
Are retired attorney who had nothing but free time to
do this. That's a piece. It's a long time, and
it took somebody with that interest in those skills, and
that's that's right. What happened?
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Well, because the thing is, you know, as an attorney,
and it's one thing to have tradition and a narrative,
but in the legal field is it documented.
Speaker 4 (40:35):
And no judge in a case, if this actually were
a case, no judge would have listened to either side
of this. They would have said, guys, go do the work.
Go in there and find me all the quotes and
give me all the quotes, right, and this cherry picky
would never have lasted. But it shows you that people
aren't necessarily always arguing or debating in good faith in
that sense that they're not treating it as a real case.
(40:57):
They're just making you said it earlier if they're making
the case to try to win, right, So they pulled
out the handful of quotes that were on their side,
and they're ignoring, well, what did all the other things say?
No one did the work, and in fairness, it would
have been hard to do the work before the internet.
It took me years even with the internet. I you know,
I'm not being judgmental that no one did the work.
(41:17):
My point is it's not been done right.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Well, well, I can't even thank you enough. And I
told you this the first time I met you. This
is just so awesome what you've done. You've done the work,
and the thing is is that you removed it. You've
taken it out of the emotional I mean, even like
today and our debates that we have in our country today,
they're more emotional based than fact base.
Speaker 4 (41:41):
I invented a word, I decatholicize the discussion of the canon.
So it's not a question of, you know, should you
be Catholic. It's a question of whether you have the
right Bible, period, full stop. Nothing else, and I quote
nothing but Protestant scholars. I use Protestant lingo, I do everything.
It's stop thinking about the pope. Let's just focus on
the Bible. Right, do you have the right Bible? Let's
(42:02):
look at the evidence. So that's my approach. I have
found that Protestants love it. So if you are Catholic,
I think you will love my book, and I think
you will love sharing it with your Protestant friends and family,
et cetera. But it is it is directed at Protestants
to be as friendly to them as possible and show
them the evidence.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
I can't imagine that Protestants would not be interested. Like
you said, there's a natural curiosity in Protestants that it's
even in their name.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
They protest right exactly, So.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
It's like, okay, here, here, let's protest about this, but
let's get the facts.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
And the facts now are available.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
This isn't emotional, you know here it is you know,
read it, you decide for yourself. So I can't imagine that.
I mean, this may cause them a little bit because
like most Protestants, they have five or six Bibles on
their shelf right now, and none of them contain the apocrypha,
and so they're probably thinking, okay, I maybe need.
Speaker 4 (42:57):
To The strangest reaction to me like it, I'm honestly
surprised by it is how much the Protestants who've read
the book end up loving the stories actual apocryphal books,
the stories of Susannah and Judith and Tobit, and they
they see connections to their Bible that they never really
focused on before. Because again, these illusions that we're talking
(43:17):
about are things that Protestant scholars are discussing and showing
you where it came from. And now they see that
and they just love that stuff. And I was not
expecting that at all I was, you.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Know, yeah, in your book, you open up, you start
talking about Susannah. I mean it was like, you know,
boom and hit you right.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
Between the eyes.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
That go okay, all right, So explain to our audience.
We got about four minutes left here. Explain to our
audience Susannah and how it fits.
Speaker 4 (43:45):
You mentioned my favorite story, our favorite story. It's a
story about Daniel when he's a child. There's a woman
named Susannah who is wrongly accused by two Jewish men
who had attacked her, Jewish leaders, religious leaders who had
attacked her and tried to force themselves on her. And
she is being accused of adultery and wrongly accused. And
(44:08):
Daniel successfully argues against it as a child. And so
the question is whether this story belongs as part of
the Book of Daniel. That's would be the debate over
the scripture of it. It is my favorite story. It's
a great story. It was accepted as scripture by every
single father in the early Church for four hundred and
fifty years. There is not a single exception. The guy
(44:29):
who is frequently the closest to the Protestant Canadates, a
guy named Jerome Jerome says, I did not reject his
in it, and anyone who claims that I did, it's
lying and slandering me. There's nothing in the early Church
against Sutannah that comes later. And you know, it's an
amazing story. It's amazing to see the evidence. And as
(44:49):
I say, it could easily be a separate book in
the Bible. That's how the sixteen eleven King James version
sets it out. It could be at the beginning or
the end of Daniel. But it's a wonderful piece.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
Yeah, one of those books.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Why I dare say, we hear so little if anything
about Yeah, And.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
Like I said, it's it's my favorite story once I
got into it and it repere it's I you know,
as a lawyer. Maybe it makes sense that it's my
favorite story since it's Daniel kind of being a lawyer.
But it is, you know, just a beautiful story and
uplifting and you see God acting and saving somebody when
they needed it.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Well, Well, give us another. We got three minutes left.
Give us another. Susannah's not Susannah, but another book and
story that is part of the apocryphal Go ahead, Judith, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (45:34):
Judith is alluded to by Paul and his Epistle to
the Corinthians. It is alluded to by Mary and Elizabeth
as you you know, as women, you might expect that
in the Gospel of Luke, and it is absolutely specifically
mentioned by Clement of Rome, who was writing at the
same time as the First as the some of the
(45:55):
books of the New Testament are being written. He specifically
mentions it and his Epistle to the Corinthians. So you
have three people who might have been in corinth preaching
to the Corinthians, Luke, Paul, and Clement referring to Judith.
That is a mountain of evidence for the story of Judith,
you think, And it's it's crazy that people haven't focused
on how that is all tied to one city, one time,
(46:17):
in one place and dealt with. But that it's also
a beautiful story. It's about a Jewish woman who saves
the Jewish people. Judith just means Jewish, So it's not
necessarily a historical story as much as it could be
a historical fiction. That's what Martin Luther thought it was.
He thought it was sort of a beautiful inspirational story,
like job. Maybe it didn't happen, but you should still
(46:39):
be reading it and it's still part of the Bible.
But yeah, that Judith is another one that's fantastic and
people love the story.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
Go ahead, one more, we got time.
Speaker 4 (46:47):
Tob Tobit is about has a lot about angels. In fact,
the angel Raphael comes from Tobit. If you don't have
Tobain in your Bible, you don't have Rafael in your Bible.
And it's a beautiful story the healer exactly, and uh,
and several things that Rafael talks about in Tobit are
then exactly the same as what John shows us in Revelations.
(47:11):
So the idea, these descriptions of heaven and how heaven
is organized and how it looks batch which is very interesting.
You know, we believe that John saw into the afterlife
and saw heaven and his revelation, well that seems to
have happened with Tobot as well.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
Yeah, well you see what you got to look forward to.
Speaker 4 (47:28):
Exactly. It's fascinating stuff. Protestants have loved it, like I said,
because they've never heard any of this. Catholics, at least
you have his chance of hearing.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Look at this, Look at this is the way you
can get some insight from a retired corporate attorney.
Speaker 3 (47:39):
You don't even have to pay his fee.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
All you gotta do is bia his book, okay, because
he's I mean, he's very expensive, as you can tell,
and deservedly so, but here he's made it very affordable
with his book, Canon Crossfire. Does the Protestant Bible blow
up the Case for Christianity? Matthew Mark mccorter. Matthew, thank
you so much. Really, you're such a blessing, and you've
(48:02):
blessed our audience in bringing this to our forefront. And
I know they're going to pick up your book because
they're going to be blessed by it.
Speaker 3 (48:10):
Because we want the whole Gospel.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
We want everything that God intended for us to have,
and you've opened up the gates to this.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
So thank you so much. I appreciate you.
Speaker 4 (48:23):
Thank you, God bless.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Well, God bless you. Matthew mccuin, retired corporate attorney, former atheist,
author of this book, Canon Crossfired as the Protestant Bible
blow up the Case for Christianity. After a near death experience,
Matthew launched a court room style investigation into scripture and
what he discovered will shake your assumptions, and you got
a little bit of a taste for it today. So again,
(48:45):
thank you for sharing a part of your day with us,
and thank you for Matthew for coming on and talking
about his new book that's going to be a wrap
for us. May God bless you and keep you, May
make his face shine upon you, May be gracious unto
you and give you peace.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
God bless
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