The Bill Martinez Show 12 31 25

The Bill Martinez Show 12 31 25

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Are you ready.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
Yeah, Okay, let's do it.

Speaker 3 (00:03):
Bill Martinez Live a program about current events, our culture,
our values, our politics, and our future.

Speaker 4 (00:11):
And now Bill Martinez.

Speaker 5 (00:15):
Well, good morning and welcome. Six minutes after the top
of our Bill Martinez here with my good friend Hester
Lucas Miles. We're gonna talk about his new book, Pagan Threat,
Confronting America's Godless Uprising. But before we do, first of all,
welcome Lucas. Good to have you back with us. It's
been a minute.

Speaker 4 (00:32):
Thank you, Bill. Always good to see you.

Speaker 6 (00:33):
You're one of the best out there, and it's an
honor be on the show.

Speaker 5 (00:36):
Well, you're very kind. I must say this at the opening,
and people know, most people are aware that you were
associated with Charlie Kirk and with Turning Point Faith, and
you know in our hearts remain heavy as God takes
us through this period of grief and mourning and renewal

(00:59):
because that one thing, God, God just won't allow the
static to stay there.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Right.

Speaker 6 (01:04):
Yeah, it's been it's been amazing the ground surge of
support that we have felt. I've been the senior director
of TPUSA Faith. I oversee all the faith operations within
the Turning Point ecosystem, and it is. It's been incredible
to see what God has done on the other side
that's filtered through the lens of grief. And and of
course all of us, you know, within Turning Point and
everybody that loved Charlie deary, have been so impacted. I've

(01:28):
said before about Charlie that you know, Charlie dying was
almost like a million people dying because of the impact
that he had, and you know the way it affected
so many individual families, even if they didn't know him,
he was part of their family. Everybody owned a little
bit of Charlie Kirk and just he was so he
was so charismatic, drew people in. You know how many

(01:50):
of us watched him and said, that's what I wanted
to say in that conversation. I could have communicated that
to my my friend, or my sister, or my brother
or my dad or whatever it was, or my neighbor.
And you know, Charlie just became part of all of
our lives. And I don't think that you know, people
fully realized the rich treasure that we had in him
until fully until he was gone. And I think we're

(02:12):
still recognizing the void that that is created in this world.
But God's faithful and he is raising up so many
that are standing strong. On my email box can prove it.
I've got just so many inquiries from people. We're filtering
through those as fast as we can. It's been absolutely
amazing to see just this revival on the other side
of this deep loss.

Speaker 5 (02:31):
Well, Lucas, like any organization, it's about the people, and
Charlie Kirk attracted great people such as yourself. I mean, talented,
gifted speakers, insightful individuals of all ages. I mean when
you hear or see someone from the organization interviewed, it's impressive.

Speaker 6 (02:57):
Charlie gathered people that I think had similar DNA and
makeup to him. We not all the same gifts, I mean, certainly,
and Charlie was unique. I mean he was a once
in a generation mind, as many people have said. I
agree with that, But there was there was these other
attributes I think that Charlie looked for. He looked for
somebody who understood what I call grace plus hustle. They

(03:18):
were grateful, they knew that all of this came from
the Lord, but they were willing to put in the time,
and they were willing to work harder than anybody else.
You know, all it would take Charlie to say to
the staff would be like, hey, guys, let's get this,
let's do this, let's dream bigger.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
You know.

Speaker 6 (03:32):
He would just have these short phrases at times that
he would send you or communicate to a team, and
it was enough to get everybody go, yes, we can
do it, and you just instantly believed it because Charlie
said it. He was so so motivating. He just maximized
everybody around him, brought the absolute best out of them.
I was I'd like to think I was a decent
leader when I came to TPOSA faith. Charlie made me

(03:53):
a better leader in the last eighteen months that I
was around him, you know, intimately, and I will be
forever grateful for that. Was the honor of my life
to serve under him.

Speaker 5 (04:02):
I bet. And you know, you look back in the
rearview mirror and you see what he did when he
started at eighteen years of age. I mean, you talk
about a legacy and a track record. I imagine initially
when he was saying, hey, we need a dream bigger,
we can do this, and probably some of the people go, yeah, Okay,
that's just Charlie again. But then you get down the
road and you're going, hey, yes, don't even think twice,

(04:25):
because you've already proven yourself time and time and time again.
And that seems to be the consistent message and the
evidence of Turning Point USA. Right.

Speaker 6 (04:36):
Yeah, he just had a way of doing what he
said he was going to do. I think, you know,
a man of absolute integrity. What he preached, what he proclaimed,
what he said, he made it happen, you know. And
I think that's one reason why I think our donors
have been so supportive of us over the years, is
because when Charlie said we're going to do this, they
knew he was going to do it. We saw that
with the twenty twenty four election. And you know, the

(04:59):
amazing thing and I think where I'm very you know,
confident still in the future of TPSA and TPOSA Faith
is that Charlie developed a very deep bench the organization
and you know, not everybody's name is known, but you
know Turning Point and Turning Point you know USA, Turnpoint Action,
TPUOSA Faith, all the different you know arms that Charlie
put together here. There's just great people through these companies

(05:22):
that are fully committed. The resolve is higher than ever.
And it's the same machine that was supporting Charlie this
whole time, and so that machine isn't gone. You can
try to, you know, strike down the general here, but
I'll tell you what this this this army is going
to rise up. We're going to keep doing the work
of God. We understand ideologically there's a major battle to

(05:42):
fight and committed to seeing it through well.

Speaker 5 (05:45):
And that was the spiritual battle that you and I
have discussed and we're going to talk about it. And
it's you know, evident in your new book as well.
You know, the people are are rising up, and you know,
I think so many people out there because they didn't
have the wherewithal. You know, the Bible says, if you
don't have the foundation for spiritual things, you're not going
to understand spiritual things. A lot about Charlie was spiritual

(06:09):
because he knew, yes, we could talk about practical things
and discussed in the marketplace about you know, about the
dissatisfaction you may have on the college campuses. But he
knew at the very root, your restlessness was not going
to be rested until it rested in the heart of Jesus.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Right.

Speaker 6 (06:31):
Yeah, Hey, everything that Charlie did, I think his faith
was a foundation layer to it. It was undergirded all
of his political views, all of his social views. He
could debate them in the public square, and sometimes he
would say on college campuses, hey, if you don't want
to talk about Christianity, we can just talk about this
from logic or reason. And he would do just an
excellent job navigating that. But he understood that. I think

(06:53):
that his biblical faith is faith in Jesus Christ. Was
that underlayment for all these other views that he held.
And it was because of his faith in Jesus Christ
that he understood, you know, national sovereignty, personal responsibility, sanctity
of life, that he understood the value of being a
self learner. You know, all these things were you know,

(07:14):
really girded in you know, biblical teaching, kind of a
Proverbs you know, coming to life sort of a reaction.
And you know, Charlie was so unique, and I'm just
grateful for him. His legacy is going to live on
for a very long time. Probably one of the most
videotaped human beings ever to live on the planet. And
we've got content for decades to come. I'm convinced that

(07:35):
the world's going to see.

Speaker 5 (07:36):
I'm waiting for the Naval Academy to say, how did
we let him get away? Right? I mean, but thank God,
you know, in a sense, because well, God's in control.
So the Naval Academy. Though it was an aspiration for
him and a dream that he had, God had a
better plan for him.

Speaker 6 (07:54):
You know, I'll let somebody else on our team actually
verify that, but I believe that earlier this year he
had an opportunity to go to speak to I think
the board at the Naval Academy. I could have that wrong,
but I'm pretty certain that's the case. And so God
ended up bringing that full circle where he was able
to go there and present some things to them, speak
out about stamping out wokeism and really the importance of

(08:15):
high military standards and these things, and so you know,
it's it's it's awesome to see that, you know. I
think in many ways his dream did come true where
he was able to be at the top of that
and influence people, and God used him in so many
just prolific ways, you know, throughout his life.

Speaker 5 (08:31):
Well, and you have to look in terms of his inspiration.
As you mentioned the impact that had on Pete Hegseth.
I'd say even Bobby Kennedy Junior. I mean, you know
what we're doing now with the the you know, the
defense of war now not the defense but the War Department,
and you know, and them getting in shape and raising

(08:53):
the level for each other. I think it's a positive
thing and we can blame part of that on Charlie.
I think one hundred percent. Yeah, without a doubt. We
got to go to a quick break. We've got more
from Lucas Smiles on the other side. Stay with us.

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Speaker 5 (13:39):
And we're back by the nineteen minutes after the top
of the are Bill Martinez here with Lucas Michael Miles.
He's the author. He's also with Turning Point Faith and
a pastor of influence influenced church. Right, yeah, and everything
continues to go well. So I want to talk about
the pagan threat? Why why this book and why now?

Speaker 9 (14:02):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (14:02):
So I've read a couple of books on exposing Wochism
specifically within the church, the Christian left, and then woke Jesus.
And you know, as I was processing through these these
books and I'm very thankful that the past books have
done quite well. I recognize that that Christianity was a
good short term vehicle for wokeism, but not a good
long term host. And what I mean by that is

(14:23):
Marxism is really a parasite. It is, it can't stand
on its own. It requires something else to support it
and hold it up, whether that's the state or religion
or whatever. And and Christianity for a time provided that
in the form of progressive Christianity, where you know, Marxism
found an infiltration into the four walls of the Church

(14:46):
to convince, you know, the world. I think it was
through the trojan horse of social justice that it came
in and it it it for a time was very convincing.
But eventually, if you call yourself a progressive Christian, you're
either going to push more into the critical theory Marxi,
this framework and recognize that, you know, eventually deconstruct from
your faith that that Marxism is antithetical to the Gospel,

(15:07):
or if you push into your the Christian side of
that progressive Christianity enough and you actually start reading the Bible,
you'll recognize that all the principles of marx are are
you know, really anti God. I mean they're there, they
don't they can't coexist with a biblical worldview, and so
you'll eventually leave that progressive form you know, formation away.
But paganism isn't like that.

Speaker 4 (15:29):
Because of the.

Speaker 6 (15:31):
A less rigid moral structure, really completely fluid moral structure.
It allows for the various views of Marxism uh to
take root without any sort of internal conflicts. And so
the goal what we're seeing, the reason why there's a
resurgence of paganism today is because it's really bought and
paid for by the left that is trying to supplant

(15:54):
Christianity as being the predominant Christian worldview and to introduce
this this pagan uh you know, ideology and platform so
that it can win over the younger generation and get
these Marxist ideas to be more easily accepted. Now that
the spiritual climate has changed and there's no longer the
obstacle of the cross, you know, standing against it.

Speaker 5 (16:16):
Right, nothing new under the sun. And you said something
that's really important, and I hope our audience caught that,
and that is that if you're not in the word,
you're really not studying the legitimate I've used this example
many times. It's like a bank teller when they teach
them how to deal with counterfeit money, what they have

(16:37):
them study is the legitimate. They study the legitimate so
closely that they can see the counterfeit like that. And
I would dare say in today's Christianity, because we have
not been as invested in the Word as we should be.
I say, on a daily and a continual basis. Because
you've got to imagine, if Jesus says, you know, I

(16:59):
don't live on bread alone, but by every word that
comes out of the mouth of God, that's pretty significant.
I would think, Yeah, you're absolutely right.

Speaker 6 (17:06):
I mean, look, as Christians, we have to come back
to establishing our faith in fact. At the end of
the book, I give a seven step road map on
how do we start turning the tide. I mean, how
many young people have been influenced by this, how many
parents and grandparents have come to you know, us and said, hey,
what can I do to reach my child and my grandchild?
You know, how many people are concerned about nieces and
nephews and these things they've seen impacted by gender ideology,

(17:28):
by leftism, by Marxism, by Antifa. You know, we've seen
several very prominent examples. In the last few weeks. We
had two sniper attacks young men that were you know,
indoctrinated on the internet, you know, to do such terrible things.
And I think that everybody's recognizing there's a crisis that's
happening here. And this younger generation is harder to reach

(17:49):
in many ways because they're less accessible than previous generations were.
They are more prone to be isolated. They grew up
kind of in isolation through COVID, they were sort of
trained in that, so they have less of a desire
or even the skill set to go meet friends and
make friends and find people. There's a lot of trauma
in their life, starting with everything from September eleven to

(18:09):
the rise in school shootings to you know, you know,
wars and rumors of wars, you know, totalitarian you know,
policies during COVID, now things like the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
This is a generation in trauma and we have to
reach them, but we have to reach them with something.
In particular, we have to reach them with the Gospel,
and so we have to start with that that primary

(18:29):
you know, belief in christ. We need a resurgence in evangelism.
We need to use tools of technology in order to
get the gospel out there. But I provide a plan
at the end of the book, and I encourage every
single faith leader and parent, grandparent to get a copy.

Speaker 5 (18:41):
Well, you know, you brought up something that's key here,
and that is the young people. And what I see, Lucas,
is that they're looking for consistency, you know, right now
in a culture where brands have been compromised, whether we're
talking bud Light, Disneyland, you know recently with Cracker Barrel.
You know, if all of a sudden McDonald says, hey,

(19:03):
we're not doing Hamburgers anymore, there'd be insanity, you know,
because it's a violation of their brand and their image
of who they are. Christianity has a brand and image.
What's happened is some of these, as you say, you know,
progressive pastors and cultural progressives who thought, oh, well, you know,
this is what's going on, and we need to make

(19:24):
a shift. But they didn't even realize as they were
drifting and you and I talked about this years ago,
as they drift away from the solidarity and the consistency
of the Gospel. They started to compromise their brand. And
the cautionary tale here is look at hit the pause button, reevaluate,
reconnect with that brand, that identification, which is Christ Church.

(19:48):
It's not your church, It's Jesus' Church, right, And this
is what these kids are coming back to. And they're
looking to say, Okay, are you true? Are you legit?
Are you a counterfeit? And they can smell account fit
from miles away, can't they?

Speaker 6 (20:02):
Yeah, absolutely, you're absolutely right.

Speaker 4 (20:03):
I think that.

Speaker 6 (20:03):
You know, one of the things that made Charlie so
successful was his willingness to engage in real conversation. He
would sit down. You know, people would call him a fascist,
but yet how many fascists do you know that give
their opponent a microphone hours, you know, to be able
to talk about these things. If he was a fascist,
he wasn't a very good one. Uh And and so
it's uh, you know, it's very unique to this generation.

(20:24):
They love the dialogue. They love, you know, getting on
TikTok live and having debates. You know, when I was
a kid, I was I went to uh, I was
in a speech and debate club, and I never wanted
to tell anybody. You know, it was kind of dorky
and nerdy. You know, my friends found out, you know,
it might be a problem. But now I mean it's
it's it's like the you know, it's like the Greek
the amphitheater again here. You know, people there say there

(20:47):
is great pride in going out and saying, let's have
these conversations. Let's give the opposing side a chance, and
let's have a rebuttal, and let's be able to engage.
And I think this younger generation loves that we have
started doing in our churches and also with TPUSA faith,
just sit down conversations where we dialogue was the thought leader,
and just get stuff out on the table. And then
to be able to take questions from the audience when

(21:07):
we're done. Most churches would never dream of giving a
chance for their audience to ask questions, but then we
will sh why they're not discipled. And so Jesus asked questions,
and he gave time for people to ask him questions.
And I think that's a secret to reaching this generation
right now.

Speaker 5 (21:21):
And I think this will help us return to civility
where we can have a conversation, sit down and as
the Bible says reason together. Yeah, okay, and that's what
I think our culture is aching for, is that kind
of connection. Lucas, what do you think.

Speaker 6 (21:35):
I think you're absolutely right. I think that, you know,
there's a lot of ego and pride that gets attached
to these things. But I think that for those of
us that are you know, committed to taking the Gospel forward,
we have to really check that ego at the door.
And we're here to be a spokesperson for God. We're
here to preach the full counsel of the Word of God.
So many pastors have just you know fallen, you know,
from this. Charlie and I talked about this a lot.

(21:57):
One of the things I introduced to him was the
idea that they're three types of pastors. That there's true
pastors and there's traitorous pastors, and there's this middle category
of trembling pastors. And I think that that's what we've
seen so much of, is we have these pastors that
they're like giddy and hiding in the wine press, hoping
the battle is going to go on you know without them,
you know, as they just you know, kind of stay
under cover. But I think that Charlie Kirk was somebody

(22:19):
who came to us and said, arise you, mighty valiant warriors,
and he and he called the church back to action.
Now in his passing, I think that it's our job
to remind one another of that. I think it's you know,
I feel, you know, burden to be somebody who continues
to remind the church it's time to get in the fight.
It's time to stand up, it's trying. It's time to
be strong in your faith. It's time to be bolder
than ever. And and you know, because there's a world

(22:40):
and in a country to save.

Speaker 5 (22:42):
Here exactly the truth matters, doesn't it, Yes.

Speaker 6 (22:45):
One hundred percent Without Without you know, truth, what do
we have U? You know, just it's fabrication, it's our own.
My truth doesn't mean anything. My truth isn't worth anything.
I don't have it all figured out. There's only one
who does. And I just want to keep pointing people
to him.

Speaker 5 (23:00):
Amen. About thirty seconds left here. Pagan Threat Book available
now in all the usual places.

Speaker 4 (23:06):
Right, Yeah, you're go ahead.

Speaker 5 (23:09):
And I was just going to say to summarize, to
summarize it, what would you want people to gain from this?

Speaker 9 (23:15):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (23:15):
Absolutely, This is to equip them to be able to
reach this generation and be able to stand up in
the times that we're in.

Speaker 5 (23:20):
The world is shifted.

Speaker 6 (23:21):
We saw that twenty you know, twenty eight days ago
or so when Charlie was killed, and it is time
that ever, that people understand what's happening and what they
can do about it.

Speaker 5 (23:30):
Well, Lucas Miles, my good friend, thank you so much
for being with us. I so appreciate you. God bless you,
Lucas a pastor and author. And of course with Turning
Point Faith, you know, we just look forward to hearing
some you know, more exciting things coming from Turning Point.
As the follow up and the legacy of Charlie Kirk continues.

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Speaker 5 (27:55):
Hey, good morning, Welcome back Bill Martinez here. Great to
have you with us, sharing a part of your day
for morning from on the show Bill Martinez Live dot Com.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
Well.

Speaker 5 (28:02):
His Uly released book, Jewish Roots of American Liberty, by
the Bradley Prize winning Hillsdale College historian Wilford McLay and
Yeshiva University's rabbi doctor Stuart Halpern, is illustrating how the
free institutions that we value so much in today's America,
including Christianity itself, are securely grounded in Jewish ideas, images,

(28:25):
and ethics. The timing of this release of this book,
you know, couldn't be more consequential in light that our
culture and our society has been dealing with and with us.
Right now to talk more about it is Bill McLay. Bill, welcome, Michelle.
Good to have you with us.

Speaker 4 (28:40):
Thank you, Bill, and fellow Bill. I'm glad to be there.

Speaker 15 (28:44):
By the way, people should know that the book I
wrote it publish it under the name Wilfred McLay, which
is my given name, which.

Speaker 4 (28:53):
I rarely use.

Speaker 15 (28:55):
So when they're looking for it, which I hope they
will do, look for Wilfrid.

Speaker 5 (29:01):
Right exactly, and so don't get confused. But you know
the title of the book, Jewish Roots of American Liberty,
So that should confirm your search there as well. And
it's not that Wilfrid's on witness protection or anything like that.
He's just formal because as an author, sometimes we're called
to be formal.

Speaker 4 (29:19):
Right, right, right, and sometimes not.

Speaker 5 (29:23):
Yeah, I get that, yes, if you have something to hide,
but in this particular case, we have lots to reveal,
not to hide, right.

Speaker 15 (29:30):
Yeah, absolutely absolutely. And the God of the Bible is
the god of revelation.

Speaker 5 (29:39):
So there we go, and he's and he's the god
of America.

Speaker 15 (29:44):
Well indeed, indeed America doesn't always seem to want to
recognize that fact, but we do have we have our moments.
We definitely have our moment.

Speaker 5 (29:54):
Well, there's no question there's been a lot of pushback
on this, but this has been going on, you know,
for over one hundred years. You know, some people want
to look at you know, mid sixties when prayer was
taken out of school. I say, go back to when
Darwinism came into play. That seemed to be a key,
a door opener for people to really separate themselves and

(30:16):
look at things more secularized. And there's just been a
consistent march through the institutions and through this great American
idea that God blessed us with.

Speaker 15 (30:29):
Yeah, I think you're right about connecting and to Darwinism
to the sort of anthropology of modern man. You know,
one of the things that Jews and Christians share, at
least in their foundational beliefs, is that the belief in
the creator God, that God created the world, that God

(30:50):
has he spoke to the world and to be it,
and he's a separate from nature, He's not part of nature,
he's a separate from nature. But above all else, that
we are created in His image. That that is a
central Jewish idea, taken over, taken aboard by Christianity, formed

(31:15):
around that Jewish belief and and of course Thomas Jefferson
when he wrote the Declaration of Independence, that all men
are created equal, right, Where.

Speaker 4 (31:24):
Does that come from?

Speaker 15 (31:25):
It's it comes from the notion that we're made in
God's image, and we're all stamped with that divine image,
and that's the source of our dignity of our rights.
You know, the Declaration that says we're endowed by our
creator with certain inalienable rights, unalienal rights actually live liberty,

(31:46):
pursuits for happiness. So these rights come from the endowment
that comes from God, that comes from God's creating us
in his image. And so so there's you go to
the very foundations. So what's to think of about America.
It is this notion that we're all created equal, right,

(32:07):
which doesn't mean we're all equal. It doesn't mean we're
all equal in every respect. You know, I can't play
basketball like Lebron James. I can barely see his belt buckle.

Speaker 4 (32:20):
By the look.

Speaker 15 (32:22):
But uh, but that doesn't mean we are are unequal
eyes of God. So there has to be some standard
that's not just a standard of measurements or achievements of
any particular characteristics, but that we are endowed in our soul.

Speaker 4 (32:43):
With a stamp, the mark the image.

Speaker 15 (32:47):
We are image bearers exactly, and that's why every human
life is valuable.

Speaker 5 (32:54):
It really is. You know, it was said that, and
I think I want to say Lewis who said, and
understanding the concept that we were made in the image
of God, it caused him to respond that I've never
met a mere mortal.

Speaker 4 (33:10):
Yes, never been an ordinary person.

Speaker 5 (33:12):
Yeah right, yeah, I mean you think about that. I
mean to realize the person that you are in contact
with that's sitting across the table perhaps, or maybe you're
standing up having a conversation. Uh, we should be in
awe that here is this wonderful expression manifestation of Creator

(33:34):
God right before us. You know, and I think that unfortunately,
the human consciousness as such is that, as you said earlier,
you know, we think, or you kind of inferred, is
that we think competitively and we want to think of
the other person as being less than instead of more than.
And God says you're neither. You're neither less than, you're
neither more than.

Speaker 15 (33:56):
Yes, And you know, this looks forward to as a
way of thinking about when Jesus says, what you do
to the least of us, you do to me, right,
it's his way of saying that at least of us,
that individual as bears the image just the same as
you do, and address my image as the co equal

(34:20):
person of the trinity.

Speaker 4 (34:22):
So you treat everybody with the same awe respect that
you're talking about.

Speaker 5 (34:30):
To me. It's a perspective of holiness because God intended
us to be you know, self contained, to be holy
as He is holy, and that's what we strive to
do in this fallen world. And he understands that we're
living in this fallen world and we're going to have
those unholy moments because as soon as you say and

(34:51):
want to be holy, rightsay, I want to be holy,
then all the pressures are against you to be you know,
as unholy as you possibly can be.

Speaker 4 (34:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 15 (35:00):
Well, you know, I'd like to talk also about another
way that the Jewish tradition connects with America, and that
is the Exodus. Yes, the story of the Exodus, which
is and I don't know whether you have a copy
of the book handy, but if you look at the
cover of the.

Speaker 5 (35:18):
Book, yes, I do.

Speaker 15 (35:19):
We have a depiction of Yeah, you can show it
to the audience that you may not be able to
see it very well, but it's a depiction of Moses holding.

Speaker 4 (35:29):
His arms up and surrounded by the Israelites.

Speaker 16 (35:33):
And then on the other shore is Pharaoh is wearing
a crown that looks very eighteenth century, and he is
being swamped by along with his fellow Egyptian soldiers, by
the waters that are returning after having been parted.

Speaker 15 (35:52):
By to enable the Israelites to go from slavery to freedom. Well,
here's the interesting thing, and everybody knows that story in
some version or others. Thomas Jefferson, who was not a
particularly religious man, and Benjamin Franklin, who similarly it was

(36:14):
a little more favorably incline, but they were the ones
that wanted to make the Seal of the United States
the Great Seal of the United States. Have that image,
that image, that's that a version of that image that's
on the cover of the book book.

Speaker 4 (36:31):
My book.

Speaker 15 (36:33):
And why would they do that? Why would they? Well,
because Jefferson did write about this a little bit he
saw because he he he adopted batto that he and
Franklin proposed for the Seal, which was rebellion to tyrants
is obedience to God. And Jefferson liked that so much

(36:56):
he made it his own personal motel, on his own
personal seal.

Speaker 4 (37:00):
So what's going on.

Speaker 15 (37:01):
Here is that he saw this movement out of slavery
in Egypt under the aegis of God. Two of the
Promised Land was a figure, a metaphor and allegory for
the whole limit of the human race.

Speaker 4 (37:19):
But she saw the American Revolution as marking a decisive
moment in proclaiming the equality of all men, and that
they said in one of his letters that there aren't
some people who with saddles.

Speaker 15 (37:34):
On their backs and others worn with booths and spurs.

Speaker 4 (37:38):
To ride them. I'm not going out exactly, but that's
the image. And you know, in other words, there's not
a sort of hiroarch.

Speaker 15 (37:50):
And and then what follows from that is that we
should find a way that we can govern as he
as citizens on his subject.

Speaker 4 (38:00):
So there is even though that there's a little.

Speaker 15 (38:03):
Bit of a sector, there is a retension of the parotage,
the biblical idea of moving from darkness to life that
they that they've done.

Speaker 4 (38:17):
Exodus is our story starts.

Speaker 8 (38:21):
Bill.

Speaker 5 (38:21):
We got we got to go to quick break. We'll
pick it up on the other side. We got more
from Bill McLay. I don't have to stay with us.

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Speaker 5 (42:34):
Hey, we're back by your fourteen minutes before the top
of the hour of Bill Martinez here with Wilfrid maclay
formally Bill McClay in our casual conversation.

Speaker 4 (42:43):
Yez, yeah, that's right, and we're.

Speaker 5 (42:46):
Talking about his just released book, Jewish Roots of American Liberty.
And as you were saying before the break, Bill, is
that you have this interesting you know, and I think
it was revelation. I think it was God speaking to,
you know, to founders of this great American idea that
he was going to use them to, you know, to

(43:08):
really codify this concept of liberty and freedom and things
that really, you know, we could see glimpses of it certainly,
you know, in the Jewish faith and Jewish tradition, but
this was taking it to a whole new level. This
is post Jesus, this is after Jesus coming, and really

(43:29):
I think introducing the total concept of freedom and liberty
and what that meant and even the exodist of being
you know, taken out of slavery and even going through
the forty years in the desert. It wasn't something that
was going to happen overnight. It was a process that
you had to go through in order to come to

(43:50):
the Promised Land, right.

Speaker 15 (43:52):
Yes, yes, well, I mean I think that they you know,
rebellion to tires is obedience to God. You can affirms rebellion,
but it.

Speaker 4 (44:02):
Also affirms obedience to God.

Speaker 15 (44:04):
And yes, you know, this is one of the things
about the Hebrew Bible, about the Jewish foundation, at the
very bottom, at the very foundational core of our experience
is that Jewish understanding of God is that we don't
go with the flow of nature. We have certain commandments.

(44:26):
Human life is sacred, the destruction of human life, including
child sacrifice, which was a very strong characteristic of pagan
life and romans, you know, and fanticide.

Speaker 4 (44:39):
Father had that.

Speaker 15 (44:40):
Kind of authority in the family, so that we are
to be governed in things like eating and sexuality by
God's commandments, not by our wishes, not by our appetizers,
which are a form of slavery. Now, the there's wonderful

(45:01):
psalms and talk about how the true happiness is in
walking with the Lord. It's an obedience to his precepts.
And this this is a different orientation to the world,
A different anthropology, if you will, a different understanding of
what it means to be human.

Speaker 4 (45:20):
That we are not to see ourselves strictly as a
product of nature, which in naturalism says kind of calls
on us to do that.

Speaker 15 (45:32):
And the laws of nature are the ones, are the ones,
the only ones that apply. Understanding is that we we
we are to command nature, we are to superintend nature,
and that the preservation and respect of human life is

(45:52):
an imperative. And because we're made in the image of God,
made in God's the image of the Creator, the natural
world has given.

Speaker 5 (46:05):
Well. Bill, you know in your book, you and the
Rabbi have done the homework for a lot of people
who have been lazy heretofore. And these are the people
who have gotten caught up in this uh. You know,
this narrative.

Speaker 12 (46:19):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (46:19):
And I'd say a false narrative that America had little
to do. And there's little connection between the foundational principles
that you know, helped to draft and and codify the
Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of it, you know,
of our United States.

Speaker 4 (46:37):
Right. Oh yeah.

Speaker 15 (46:38):
One other thing that I think deserves to be mentioned
is that George Washington was the founder of Founders. Right
after he became president, he had a correspondence with a
number of different synagogues Jewish religious establishments up and now
the East Coast, and especially there's one in particular with

(47:02):
the congregation in Newport, Rhode Island, which was actually a
major trading center at that time, and it didn't didn't
quite work out in the long run, but Newport was
very important.

Speaker 4 (47:13):
To it had a significant Jewish population.

Speaker 15 (47:17):
And he wrote to this congregation saying, actually, maybe I should.

Speaker 4 (47:25):
Yeah right.

Speaker 19 (47:28):
Uh. He was the message to yah h, this is
the United States have a right to have them this
policy for.

Speaker 20 (47:44):
The imitation okay, pretty conscious and the communities of ass
now that the exercise inherent bill. I'm going to have

(48:04):
that bill.

Speaker 5 (48:05):
I'm gonna have you. I'm going to have you repeat
that only because you're you're it was breaking up.

Speaker 15 (48:10):
Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. All right, Uh, all possess
alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is
now no more that toleration is spoken as if it
was by the indulgence of one class of people in
another enjoyed the exercise their inherent rights.

Speaker 4 (48:32):
No, the government of.

Speaker 15 (48:33):
The United States gives to bigotry, no sanction to persecution,
no assistance, requires only that those who live under.

Speaker 4 (48:41):
Its protection could demean themselves as good citizens. And then
he goes on to say, may the children of the
stock of Abraham a term for.

Speaker 15 (48:51):
Jews right to dwell in this continued to merit and
enjoy the goodwill of the other inhabitants. And then he
goes on, it's it's a fantastic it's a beautiful endorsement
of the Jews as one.

Speaker 4 (49:06):
Percent of Americans exactly.

Speaker 15 (49:09):
And he does this with all all the other congregations,
but the one from Newport is especially famous because he says,
is now no more than not going.

Speaker 4 (49:18):
To just tolerate you.

Speaker 15 (49:19):
You're you are equal, you are free to worship, and
we have respect for the stock of Abraham, the children
of the stock of Abraham, which Christians actually consider themselves
to be children of.

Speaker 4 (49:36):
Abraham too, to faith. But uh, you know, we won't
get into that fine point.

Speaker 5 (49:43):
But Bill, what, why do you why do you think
he was inspired to say that? Because it sounds inspirational.
It was something you know that almost was deposited into
his mind from God himself, to thank well, to thank
the origins of America.

Speaker 4 (49:59):
He definitely, you know that it's possible. It's possible.

Speaker 15 (50:04):
It definitely reflects an idea of freedom that it involves
free choice of individuals, but choice in the choice of
how they will carry out their duty to God, their
duty to worship God, to their duty to obey God.

Speaker 4 (50:26):
And that I think is key for him that that.

Speaker 15 (50:32):
As as it was understood in the founding, freedom as
it was understood by the ancient Hebrews, is not do
whatever you want.

Speaker 4 (50:43):
It's not Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

Speaker 15 (50:46):
Freedom is the freedom to live within God's righteous and
good and holy and fruitful commandments.

Speaker 4 (50:58):
So that's that's that's part of our history.

Speaker 15 (51:01):
If you look at there's a great article in our
book about how how much the Framers reference the Bible
in thinking about how they were going to organize our
form of government.

Speaker 5 (51:15):
It's just you you got to think, you gotta think
about this. They're starting out with a white sheet of paper.
It's blank. It's not like they're borrowing some constitution from
somebody else. They're starting with a clean slate. And what
they're bringing to bear on this is their past experience
with different governments. They're studying other forms of government, and

(51:36):
of all the things, what do they land on. Mostly
they land on you know, Hebrew tradition and Hebrew law,
which came from scripture. And that seemed to warm right.
I mean, because when you look at the Constitution, you
see Leviticus, you see Deuteronomy, you see you know, you
see the Old Testament scripture references. Uh, maybe not directly,

(52:01):
but certainly connected.

Speaker 15 (52:04):
It's it's in the air, it's in the water, it's
in the very substance of their of their minds and
soul's spirits.

Speaker 4 (52:13):
Uh.

Speaker 15 (52:14):
And in some ways it's an inheritance uh, from many
many generations.

Speaker 5 (52:20):
Well, you know, and today you have this conflict in
this you know, growing anti Semitism and they want to
you know, divide Christians from Jews, and you know, and
that's typical of you know, the human experience. There's nothing
new under the sun. This has been done before. But
like I said earlier, Uh, you and the rabbi have

(52:41):
done a lot of homework for people who want to know,
because they say, at the end of the day, you
must own your own knowledge. You know, you're responsible for
what you know, right and what you don't.

Speaker 15 (52:52):
Absolutely, Yeah, yeah, well, that's right, and I think we
had two goals. We wanted Jews to feel more comfortable
with there being American but we also want Americans to
acknowledge the gift that Americans.

Speaker 4 (53:13):
Given a great gift to the Jews. It's the safest
place that they've had before they had their own nation.

Speaker 15 (53:19):
And even that is a very you know, perilous, conflicted thing.
It is a place of safety many Jews fertile. America
is the Promised Land. And so America has done great
things for the Jews, but the Jews have done great
things for America.

Speaker 4 (53:37):
That's the other side. They're trying to press both things
with the.

Speaker 5 (53:43):
Well, we're back to the abraham blessing. You know, those
who bless is Real will be blessed. Those who curse
curse America has blessed Israel.

Speaker 4 (53:54):
Yeah, and you see the results.

Speaker 5 (53:55):
Yeah, exactly. Well, we have to leave it there. Bill,
thank you so much. I so appreciate you coming on
uh his newly released book Jewish Roots of American Liberty
by the Bradley Prize winning Hillsdale College historian Wilfrid McLay.
Bill McLay and Yeshiva University's Rabbi doctor Stuart Halpern illustrates

(54:17):
how the free institutions that we value so much in
today's America, including Christianity itself, are securely grounded in Jewish ideas.
And when you read this book, it will come with
additional clarity as as we said, as you take the
responsibility of owning your own knowledge.

Speaker 15 (54:35):
Right Bill, absolutely, and and and and owning in a
sense that you felize you've always had it.

Speaker 4 (54:44):
Yeah, it's already.

Speaker 15 (54:45):
It's already been in the in the stories you know,
and in uh, in things that you just never thought of.
In this way, it's the blessing I hope may be
a blessed a Jewish putting. It may be a blessing
to you.

Speaker 5 (55:00):
Yes, amen, Amen, I love it. Uh. Bill m clay,
thank you for being with us.

Speaker 4 (55:04):
Take care, godless, Thank you, Bob, God bless you too.

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Getting America back on track.

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Bill Martinez Live, Hey.

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Merry Christmas to you right now. Six minutes after the
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Hey Grover, good morning to you.

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Didn't wanting good to be with you, always good.

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Yeah, it was.

Speaker 22 (56:40):
Look, he made the point that we are trying to
climb out of a hole that was dog Clyde Biden
and before that eight years of Obama Rick we forget
of Kamba, but more recently Biden's in placement. But what
Obama did was sattle this with Obama, which unlike its

(57:02):
promise by President Obama that you could keep your doctor
that wasn't true, and the more important promise that the
twenty four hundred dollars you would be saving for a
family on every year. In point of fact, prices didn't
go down because of Obamacare. They went up by more
than one hundred percent. They more than doubled. And that's

(57:25):
the problem that we're running into. So healthcare is too expensive,
and somehow the president who just showed up tried to
reform it, but the Democrats wouldn't let him back in
his first term, and in the second term we cut
off the bailout, which hit the problems and allows us
to begin to face facts. Obamacare is the problem. It

(57:49):
can't be fixed, It needs to be replaced.

Speaker 5 (57:52):
Well, there was some philosophy within the Obama administration that
really rendered and neutered America's industry and power asset, which
is its people. If you remember, Grover Obama's vision of
America was about a two percent GDP. He said, it's there.

(58:13):
You can't do anything better than two percent. That was
the depth of his vision of the potentiality of the
greatest asset that we have here in America, which is
our labor force. And he just reduced it to its
lowest common denominator. And he took the wind out of
their sales. And look what happened when Trump came into
office the first time, all of a sudden, employment was energized.

(58:35):
People were excited, they were back to work, they were
dreaming big dreams again until COVID came. And the Democrats,
of course, they couldn't have none of that. You know,
you can't have the middle class reviving again because Obama
had done everything he could to murder the middle class.

Speaker 22 (58:49):
Right, yes, Look, the Democrats don't trust somebody who doesn't
depend on them. That's why they came up with the
Great Society. Was to give welfare to people rather than
a job welfare to people, so they'll dependent on the
Democratic Party. He thought he had bought control of Congress

(59:11):
forever by putting so many people on government doll for
health care, for food, and what they first have to
do is have to break your leg and then tell
you that they'll fix it, and then break it again
so you don't get out of the chair and do
what you want to do. Is that wonderful movie book

(59:31):
or Awful Misery where that's exactly where somebody does to
keep them in the house. Every time they get better,
they break the guy's leg. That's what welfare does. It
gives you enough to get by, it gives you enough
food to get by, but it makes it impossible. They're
very difficult for you to get up and get a
job and become self contained. Why did Obama spend so

(59:55):
much time saying you didn't build that to the small
businessman who obviously did build it. And he would come
up with weird arguments like, well, you know the roads
were built by the government, well taxpayers, but by the government. Okay,
but Bill Gates has roads.

Speaker 4 (01:00:10):
I have roads.

Speaker 22 (01:00:11):
We all have roads. Somehow Bill built Microsoft. It's not
just roads. And the same thing with public education. So
he was literally trying to say it's okay to steal
from successful people because they didn't earn it. Okay, it's
all luck. And that was a very big drive. All
during their effort, the Democrats used to say, we know

(01:00:35):
how to make poor people successful. That's what there was
the argument, Okay, we're going to do that. And then
they spent fifty years with a Great Society proving they
have no idea. There was no improvement in the lives
of the people that they said they were helpful.

Speaker 5 (01:00:47):
It's just the opposite, right, I mean, was it. Our
friend Charles Woodson with the Wodson Institute has the facts
and the receipts. He says, hey, this was this was
Black America up until the Great Society adventure of Lyndon

(01:01:08):
Baines Johnson. And then look what happened. You know, marriage,
I mean you had, you know what, a three percent
divorce rate in the black community. Now all of a sudden,
in a matter of short time, you got what ninety
percent divorce rate, fatherlessness, and on and on.

Speaker 22 (01:01:23):
Yeah, all those things were brought to you by the government,
all of.

Speaker 5 (01:01:26):
Them by the Democrats. The Democrats.

Speaker 22 (01:01:29):
Yeah, you're right, you're right, the Democrats using the government,
and they should be ashamed of themselves.

Speaker 5 (01:01:36):
They should.

Speaker 22 (01:01:37):
We need to correct the history there to make sure
people understand. Uh, my daughter came from public school in
d C. And said, we're studying that the the nuclear family.
Said that's a very interesting question because different cultures do
different things about grandparents and are you know and she
explained that the nuclear family was this white thing. So

(01:02:00):
at their teachermen's school, Yeah, well, they certainly went to
war on the nuclear family, on the Black Committee through
government welfare programs.

Speaker 5 (01:02:08):
Yeah, but look at look at that, how how they
try to blame the white whiteness and this whole whiteness
stuff when here we are, I mean, we are a
country of immigrants, mostly Europeans, and I don't see Europeans
being all white, do you. I mean, am I missing
something in terms of the color and the rainbow and
the spectrum in that something I didn't learn in school.

Speaker 22 (01:02:28):
Well, only in the United States do we refer to
Africans as black. In Africa, they've all got their own tribe,
they've all got their own countries. Uh, they see it
completely differently, to the point where sometimes they don't like
each other very much.

Speaker 5 (01:02:42):
Just like just like the Somalis they're in Minnesota too,
same thing with their tribal.

Speaker 22 (01:02:47):
Wars, the British and the Germans. You know, they're all white.
They spent a lot of time killing each other. They
for crying out. They they're not the same. It's the
Democrats have adopted race as a way to divide people,
and so they like racism. They just pretend that there's
just anti racism.

Speaker 5 (01:03:07):
It's racism, yes, yeah, And that's of course, as you
see Kamala Harris trying to become relevant again, and she
can't help herself. She just has the race card to
the ready. You know, all these all these blacks, Oprah Winfrey,
I mean, uh and Whoopee Goldberg. I mean, everything is
always about race. And it's like please, I mean, I'm

(01:03:29):
done with this. I mean, you've been gas lighting us
for decades. The party's over, you know, just go ahead.
I mean, like, like the it cracked me up. The
other day, I was watching the NBA and they were
they were talking about equality. Now here's the NBA that
doesn't believe in equality. They believe in merit. Because if

(01:03:49):
you cannot sink a three footer and if you can't
make free throws, you're not in the NBA very long. Now,
if they stood under that banner of equality, it wouldn't matter, right,
So it's a joke.

Speaker 22 (01:04:04):
Yeah, I do remember Hyakala, I believe is his name,
the Republican senator from California, have Japanese descent.

Speaker 4 (01:04:13):
Very short.

Speaker 22 (01:04:14):
When somebody was throwing around the racist thing, he said, well,
he thought it was very unfair that the basketball leagues
were all mostly black and not Asian America and making
fun of the left efforts on race.

Speaker 4 (01:04:29):
On race.

Speaker 5 (01:04:30):
Yeah, I mean, well it's absurd because like anything else
that they don't really see what they've done. They've really
have joined ranks with the educational system that's dumb down
our children and America to the point that says, hey,
look at you know, don't do any of that critical
thinking thing. You know that's bad for you, don't you know,
you don't need to think because we're here. We do

(01:04:51):
all the thinking for you. And they've been such done
such a great job for us. Look at they got
a thirty eight trillion dollars in debt. I'm the mess
that has been covered, you know, has been done to
us by the government is incalculable. Grover, anyway, we got
to go to quick break. We'll pick it up on
the other side, stay with us more from Grover Norquist

(01:05:11):
right after this.

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Speaker 5 (01:09:48):
Hey, welcome back Bill Martinez here with Grover Norquist from
ATR America's for Tax Reform. Hey, good news for the
warriors of America.

Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
Hunt.

Speaker 5 (01:09:56):
Donald Trump game a big kiss last night. Seventy six
nice little bonus, huh Christmas bonus.

Speaker 22 (01:10:04):
Yeah, that was very helpful on his parties. Obviously takes
the army of their armforces very seriously.

Speaker 5 (01:10:11):
Yeah. I mean, and they said, and it wasn't like
they had to wait for it. I think the money
was already sent out, you know, by the time the
speech was he says, hey, it's already out there. So
he probably had to get it out there before the
Democrats could say, well, well wait a minute, that's our money. Right.
They claim everything.

Speaker 22 (01:10:31):
And I think one of the things that's gotten more
attention because Dell of Dell Computers and his wife are
contributing over six billion dollars into the Trump accounts. Trump
accounts are where starting six months from now, they should
get into next year. Every parent can set up an

(01:10:53):
account and put money into it for their children, but
also the government's going to start off for everybody born
in the next five years. I'll get a thousand dollars
into each of those as starter accounts. This is where
mister Dell, founder of Dell Computers said, I'm going to
get twenty five million more people because this is for

(01:11:17):
people now, It's not for people who were born a
couple of years ago. So this work it backwards so
that more kids have it. Two, three, four, five year olds.
As you do that, and now there are other successful
creators of wealth and of jobs saying that they're going
to do the same sort of thing. You can imagine

(01:11:37):
a billionaire out of Tennessee deciding to do it for
all the children of Tennessee. Then what this will do is,
you know, you can put up to five thousand dollars
into an account each year for a child. Your employer
can put it in. It's not taxed. If your company,
the company worked for made a contribution, that wouldn't be taxed.

Speaker 5 (01:11:58):
If you.

Speaker 22 (01:12:00):
It wouldn't be tax when it goes in, So it
goes in tax free. So it's easier for people to
do kind of like healthcare. Government corporate healthcare go straight
through not text. This is something that's going to have
a whole generation who when they get to be five, seven, ten, eleven,
will be very aware that their money increases each year

(01:12:22):
because it's in the stock market. They'll understand that stock
market is in ways that other kids, older kids don't know,
don't understand it. So and people can prepare for everything
from health insurance in the future to the house to education.
If you put five thousand dollars in for eighteen years,

(01:12:43):
when you got to be sixty five or six hundred
thousand dollars there, So this really Benjamin Franklin pointed out
that this is the most powerful thing in the world
is compound interest.

Speaker 5 (01:12:53):
Compound I was going to say, we love compound interests.
Can you imagine these six graders coming to school with
their portfolios.

Speaker 22 (01:13:00):
Well, just even understanding that much of economics would put
them ahead of Biden and Obama and most of the
Democrats exactly.

Speaker 5 (01:13:08):
And it will let them realize that capitalism is a big,
beautiful thing. And again it makes them more self reliant,
It gives them a vision. That's what I love about this.
I know that several years that probably over ten years ago,
some of these ivy League schools. Grover were giving people
an opportunity saying, when your child was born, you could
actually pay for their tuition in advance. Right. I love that.

(01:13:32):
I love that idea because you imagine the kids growing
up and there they are. They wake up every day
and there's a Harvard you know, Pennant in their bedroom.
You know, the vision is being cast usc banners or whatever,
you know kind of thing, because their education is already
paid for in advance. Of course, they still have to
earn it, They've got to, but it keeps them focused
on the job at hand, and that is, hey, stay

(01:13:54):
in school, get good grades, and your education's paid for. Yeah.

Speaker 22 (01:14:00):
Getting people to understand how the business world works. It
often people in when I was in grade school, in
high school, they lied to us all the time. I
mean I knew it because my dad worked for a
company and I'd learned about it at home at the
dinner table. I learned nothing about economics or a business
or how jobs are created in a public k through Trove.

Speaker 21 (01:14:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:14:23):
Well, the deal is basically the educational system is really
the backbone of it. All is socialistic, isn't it, Grover?

Speaker 22 (01:14:30):
Well, it is, Well, what do you expect from a
government monopoly. They're not cable. They think the government monopoly
is a good idea. They run one, they live in one.

Speaker 5 (01:14:39):
Uh, but then they're so why would they teach anything else.
That's my point. You know, our kids are effected by
that's that is there, that is their conditioned mindset and
their ideology.

Speaker 22 (01:14:52):
I think that we're approaching government failures and the government
monopoly failures in education, in healthcare, we need alternatives, private
sectoral alternatives to Obamacare. You could subsidize Obamacare all day
long and it wouldn't get any better. You can subsidize

(01:15:15):
the public school system more and more, and we have
for we have fifty years of experience of doing this,
and nothing gets better. In fact, things get worse in
terms of educational success and allowing people to have school choice.
Now twelve or fourteen states have universal school choice, where
if the government spends sixteen thousand per child, eight of

(01:15:38):
that can go with your child to any school they
want to. Now, someday that should be all sixteen. Why
would your child only get half as much and leave
the money in a failed public school? What are they
going to do with it? But at some point it
should be whatever the state says they're going to spend
on your kids' education should follow in his or her
backpack to any homeschool, private school, charter school, a government

(01:16:03):
school down the road that's better, okay, or the one
you're in if you like it. You know, there are
some that work out, okay. And my guess is the
more competition the government schools have, the better they'll become.

Speaker 5 (01:16:14):
That's like everything Grover, whether we're talking healthcare right is
and that you and I talked about this last week,
and that is you open it up. We're able to
buy insurance across state lines. That opens up. I mean,
that is going to have a huge effect on the
cost you know, the PBMs, these pharmaceutical benefit managers. I mean,
what a what a rig system that is. I mean,

(01:16:36):
you get all this waste and fraud out of out
of government and out of the operating system. And it
could be fantastic. I mean, lots of things could be
big and beautiful.

Speaker 22 (01:16:47):
Then right they are, and again it takes a while.
Step by step, we're getting school choice. That's that's a
fight at the state level. But there was something in
there that allows for people to make private contributions to
help kids go to private school through the public system,
through the federal government. The Trump Bill of last year,
the great, big Beautiful Bill, made that more possible for

(01:17:10):
people to have. And of certainly, health savings accounts give
you more choice buying health insurance across state lines, gives
you more choice fifty choices, which you know not fifty
is better than one.

Speaker 5 (01:17:24):
Right, yeah, exactly, Well, you know, and the thing is,
as you said and you alluded to, is that the
Big Beautiful Bill and these things that Trump and the
Republicans have voted in and have enacted, it's taken a
little bit of time, you know, And it's amazing we
didn't hear the people yell and scream under four years
of Obama and the media, you know, did everything they

(01:17:46):
could to give him cover and to make it seem
okay and participate in the federal gas lighting of the
American citizen. But boy, I mean, you know, Trump hasn't
even been there a whole year, and you know they
want every thing short of a proctological exam on him.

Speaker 22 (01:18:03):
Yes, that is interesting. Can you question Biden's health? No,
that's something that's bad. Should you question Trump's again and
again and again? Absolutely? Why can't we. They do have
a two tier system of justice, a two tiered system
of what they consider fair. And you do see the

(01:18:25):
much higher inflation under Biden was basically apologized for and
covered for, and the much lower inflation under Trump. Yeah,
they don't give them credit for it. They act about
they go, well, in the last five years, look how
high ITT's gone. And Trump hasn't fixed that yet.

Speaker 5 (01:18:40):
Yeah, it's amazing, Grever, We've got about a minute left.
I'm gonna let you summarize it. But it seems that
anything positive out of Trump triggers these people, right well.

Speaker 22 (01:18:50):
It does. So many in the establishment press are still
Democrats that that hasn't changed. They do realize that they're
losing followers on viewers on television, on radio, people reading
the Russian posts down, New York Times down. More people
are listening to podcasts that are of all worldviews, but

(01:19:10):
now the conservative worldview is much better represented, perhaps even
stronger than the liberals on some of those podcasts and
so on. Certainly, each of these opens it up, so
we have more conversation stopping Biden's effort. And this is
where buying X buying Twitter and now x elon Musk

(01:19:33):
saved the Internet for freedom of speech it was being
snuffed out. Zuckerberg of Meta and Facebook apologized before the
election before the Trump was elected second time and said,
they came to me and put a gun into my
head and said if you don't do this, we're going
to destroy your company. So you have to go censor,

(01:19:56):
and he did. I had a conversation with him at
a dinner at his house years ago when all this
pressure on the big companies from the Democrats and the FBI,
with the guys calling you on the phone saying you
have to do it. It's not the political office of
the White House. It's not FBI, which is the political
office of the White House, bush of the Biden White House,

(01:20:20):
and he said, you have no the threats, the pressure,
the pressure. I hear very little from conservatives and just
every day the left demanding I shut down every outlet
in the conservative world. And he said, we're not doing
that anymore. We're not doing that anymore. So there's so
much more freedom. The left is very frustrated because they

(01:20:41):
can't control a country that can think for itself.

Speaker 5 (01:20:45):
Yeah, you've got three and thirty three and forty million Americans.
Often rolling, being independent, realizing success. Like you said, inflation again,
the latest report lower, you know, than expected. Of course,
the media is gonna, you know, keep that down below
the fold, next to the orbituary page. They're not going
to you know, celebrate that. We know that that's a given.

(01:21:07):
But look at twenty twenty six, we're looking at GDP
barring some just huge interference from the Democrats because they're
not going to like this, Grover, we're talking three Some
are saying maybe as high as a five percent GDP
next year. That's going to be awesome for America. That's
huge numbers.

Speaker 22 (01:21:24):
There's a lot more money, a lot more capital flowing
into markets now because of the permanency of the lower
taxes and the permanency of faster depreciation, full expensing, immediate expensing.
That'll be a very very helpful thing to creating new jobs.

Speaker 5 (01:21:43):
Well, get ready, lation and gentlemen, I think the golden
age of America the Trump has been touting is just
around the corner. And I don't think that you have
to be delusional or be gas lit to consider that.
Do you growver?

Speaker 22 (01:21:55):
Now, if you remember the direction we're going in, we
are now moving in the opposit direction better. We should
always look to go faster, but we're in the right
direction rather than the wrong direction, and things are getting better.

Speaker 5 (01:22:08):
Well. He's the President of Americans for Tax Reform. Grover Norquist,
Merrek Christmas, Happy New Year, my friend, have a good one,
look forward to a great twenty twenty six together.

Speaker 22 (01:22:17):
Absolutely take it easy, you got it.

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Speaker 5 (01:26:26):
Hey, welcome back to America, Bill Martinez here. Hey, guess
who we got. We've got doctor George Barnet in Nikasa.
He is in the house Merry Christmas time with all
the reindeer and everything like that, checking the list, seeing
who's been naughty and nice. But hey, we doing okay,
doctor George.

Speaker 2 (01:26:40):
Things are going well. We're moving up to our Christmas
Great celebration. And you know, one of the things that's
coming out of all the research I've been doing, is
I would encourage people to just take a deep breath,
stop for a few moments, and think about who is
this guy that we're celebrating. Because when I look at
all the research, what I kind of have the feeling
of is that we get in a routine, We get

(01:27:03):
in the rout and we stop to think about the fact,
Wait a minute, I'm supposed to have a relationship with
this guy.

Speaker 5 (01:27:08):
Who is he?

Speaker 2 (01:27:09):
Why did he come here, what did he do? What
difference does it really make in my life? And what
should I be doing about it. So there's a great
time of year to reassess.

Speaker 5 (01:27:19):
And here we are. I mean, the church gives us,
liturgically a reminder. I mean, first starts with Thanksgiving. Then
we get the four weeks of Advent, which is all
preparation for you know, the really the Christmas, the true
Christmas season that is beyond December the twenty fifth. You know,
many people take it, you know through the New Year,

(01:27:40):
you know, through the Epiphany January the sixth, And I
think that's just a great reminder for us to hit
the reset button and like you said, take a breath,
slow down, because last time I checked, the things that
are not of this world, and the higher callings that
we really want, that are are very spirits are crying

(01:28:01):
out for are not at the shopping mall, and they're
not in that parking space that we're trying to you know,
beat out a fella, a fellow consumer out of right.

Speaker 2 (01:28:12):
Yeah, And you know, I was doing a program the
other day and the host of the show had a
great thing. We were talking about this and and she said, oh, look,
I just checked my watch.

Speaker 24 (01:28:21):
Jesus is coming back, so so imagine that. Huh yeah, yeah,
so you know, I mean her point was you better
better think about it, better get ready, and what better
time than this.

Speaker 2 (01:28:33):
This is great.

Speaker 5 (01:28:34):
Well, and when you you know, consider the scriptures in
the Old Testament, you know, the Jews were constantly looking
for the Second Coming. They had an idea. I mean,
that's what gave them some hope and hanging in there.
I mean you imagine, you know, for a couple of
thousand years plus, you know, this anticipation that God was coming,
and then I kind of find us in a way,

(01:28:55):
you know, because the cycle of life, it's pretty much
the same in the modern era. Here we are with
expectation that you know, Jesus said he was going to
come the first time, what are the chances are that
he's going to be coming here the second time.

Speaker 2 (01:29:10):
Yeah. And one of the things that I think about
too with regard to America, because I just got back
from Israel, and so there's a big contrast between the
two countries in terms of how they see things, how
they deal with things. And one of the things about
Americans is we always want to be happy. We think
that we're owed happiness, and when we come to the

(01:29:31):
Christmas season, it's a happy season. You know. We think
back to what it was like when we were a
child and we were waiting for Santa or whatever and
all the presents. And I guess i'd encourage adults to
not so much be looking for happiness, is to be
looking for truth, to be looking for reality, and to

(01:29:52):
transition this season, just like we had to transition Christmas
from child to adult, thinking of it as no longer
a time of getting presents to giving presents. Well, maybe
it shouldn't so much be a time of Yeah, I
want people to make me happy by what they give me.
Is I want to be truthful? I want to be honest.

(01:30:13):
I want to be real about who I am, about
who Christ really is. It's not about the gifts and
the tree and all that, but it's really about my
eternal standing in his eyes based on my relationship with him.
And this is a good season for me to recalibrate,
you know, or as you said, reset everything. And man,

(01:30:35):
we need to do that all the time because we
live in a culture that wants to throw us off
the right track, and so this is a good time
to get back on the right track.

Speaker 5 (01:30:46):
Well, and you know, you and I have had this
conversation since day one, George, when we first met. First
starts out with the truth, right, and but look at
the words that are out there. You know we used
to know about joy. Joy is is really connected to truth,
not happiness, right, right?

Speaker 4 (01:31:03):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:31:04):
Because joy is everlasting? Yes, yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (01:31:07):
And happiness fits our culture so well because the culture
is always in a state of flux and turbulence and chaos.
And so it's happiness because it's so situational and so
it can change in the blink of an eye. I
can go from being happy to sad, to depress to happy,
but joyful. It's like, yeah, well wait a minute. Once

(01:31:29):
you've really got that connection with the creator of the universe,
and you know why you have that connection, and you know,
I mean no capital letters him, right, that changes you
from from can change you from seeking happiness to experiencing joy.
And once you get that joy, until you destroy your

(01:31:52):
relationship with him, you're going to maintain that joy and
that should change everything.

Speaker 5 (01:31:57):
Yeah, it's everlasting, and I mean, think about it happening.
I love it. A friend of mine used to always say,
happiness is based on a happening, right, So surf sup,
We're happy. You know, it's okay, that's what's happening. Whatever
it is. You know, you go to a concert, that's happening. Okay,
you see, you're happy. But what about those moments, you know,

(01:32:17):
like right now, the season of joy and when you
really anchor in like you say, you anchor into the
truth of the season. Man, you can go through cement
walls and you can handle anything, right.

Speaker 2 (01:32:35):
It's true, you know. And one of the things that
I've been thinking about lately is worship songs. Not that
I can sing, and I can't sing, I can barely talk.

Speaker 5 (01:32:45):
But you know, you got guitars back there, you can
play them.

Speaker 2 (01:32:49):
Well, that's why I play I can't sing. Yeah, But
you know, you think about some of the best Christmas songs.
One of them is Joy to the World. It's not
Happiness to the World, you know, because you might have
to stop singing the song in the middle because you
no longer feel happy. You know, that's just changed, you know,
Joy to the World very different. I was thinking about

(01:33:09):
a song boy years ago. I was visiting a church
and they had a guest singer, and I don't know
what the song was, and I wasn't really paying attention
that closely to what he was singing until he got
to the chorus, and the chorus was three simple words,
and he was very dramatic about it, rightfully, So I

(01:33:32):
killed him. I never thought about that fact, you know.
I was sitting in that church, and you know, if
you had asked me, how did Jesus die, you know,
I point to the people around me and say, these
people are a bunch of sinners, you know. But then
when he said that I killed him for some reason,
that just really struck home with me. And so that

(01:33:52):
kind of changed the game for me in a significant way.
And I think about worship songs in this jewel to
the world. What a great conceptlists focus on that fact
that what we're supposed to be experiencing and celebrating this
Christmas season is the fact that God loved me so
much in spite of the fact that I'm a sinner,

(01:34:15):
that he sent this child to go through all the
crap that I go through day after day exactly. You know,
I was thinking about Jesus didn't have to come down
as a baby and grow up. I mean, he could
have come down as an adult, done his deal and
left again back to the comfort of heaven for him.
But you know, in God's own wisdom, he put him

(01:34:36):
through the paces that we go through so that he
could understand and we could relate to him better. I mean,
what an incredible thing. And so it makes this not
just another holiday, not just another birth you know, where
there's a birthday, but something that's really a joy filled
experience for us to celebrate and to really ponder. I

(01:34:59):
think sometimes we're so busy buying gifts and sending cards
and returning emails to people we haven't heard from in
a year that we lose sight of the fact that
wait a minute, who is this person that we're celebrating
Why did he have to come? I killed him? You know,
you know, I mean all of these kinds of things
that we have to put together, and it it I think,

(01:35:21):
if you do that right, it puts you in a
completely different frame of mind, and one that's Germaine this season.

Speaker 5 (01:35:29):
Yeah, you know, speaking of music, when you were saying that,
it reminded me of Saint Augustine's statement about singing. He says,
that's like praying twice.

Speaker 2 (01:35:42):
I haven't heard that.

Speaker 5 (01:35:42):
I love that, you know. And even though you may think, hey,
I you know, maybe I can't sing, although you have
kind of a Rod Stewart kind of you know, kind
of pitch here, but which could be interesting, you know,
but you know, I mean I can just only imagine.
But even still in our own in our own closets,

(01:36:03):
in our own you know, private rooms of singing and
that sort of thing, there's just something about how that
engages us and touches the heart. Just like you said,
even when you're listening to somebody else and there's a
lyric you know, that comes across it, just you know,
it just connects with your spirit, right.

Speaker 2 (01:36:21):
Yeah, And and and for me, I'm not real good
at this yet I'm working on it, but trying to
get to the place where I'm not letting Christmas music
become background noise. Yeah exactly, because again, we get so
used to it and it's like, Okay, it's the season,
I got to put it on it. Yeah, it's back there.
It's playing checking off the box, as opposed to realizing

(01:36:42):
there are a lot of worshipers who wrote these songs
as their greatest active service, using their gift to astor God,
to respect God, to focus us on on on Jesus
during this season. And man, what a great thing it
is sometimes just to take, even if I can only

(01:37:04):
squirrel away fifteen minutes during the course of a business day,
to go down, put the stereo, IM close the door
behind you so nobody bothers me, and to have that
opportunity just to listen to the words. You know, the
tune's nice, and I'm usually a tune guy. I don't
listen to words that much. Christmas is a very different
kind of season for me because this is the one time,

(01:37:27):
this and maybe Easter time where I know the words matter,
and so to really ponder those and think about those,
and there are some brilliant creative songs.

Speaker 5 (01:37:38):
Yeah yeah, Exactley's got their own favorites.

Speaker 2 (01:37:42):
Find your own favorites and just put them in heavy
rotation and you know, really really focus on them.

Speaker 5 (01:37:48):
Got to go to break more from Doctor George after
this stay with us.

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Speaker 5 (01:41:57):
Hey, we're back with it, Bill Martina said, for doctor
George Barnes to use, the director of research at Arizona
Christian University's Cultural Research Center, author of Raising Spiritual Champions.
You know you talk about you know, stepping away and
focusing fifteen you know, setting across, you know, setting aside
fifteen minutes of time. You know, I've been doing the
Hollow app and one of the things that comes up

(01:42:19):
recurrently is that, you know, just really focus on God.
I want you to be intentional and imagine you're in
the presence of the Father's Son and Holy Spirit. And
I got to tell you, George, I didn't pay much
attention to this before, but it's amazing when you get
intentionally start to do that, how many distractions come in.

(01:42:41):
It drives me nuts. I mean, I'm sitting there going,
you know, God forgive me. You know, it's like, I'm okay,
I'm intentional. I'm hanging in there, and you talk fifteen minutes.
I'm lucky to hold on to fifteen seconds.

Speaker 2 (01:42:56):
Yeah. I tend to be a song guy. So I'm thinking, like, Okay,
if i can get five songs that I've kind of
reset myself, you know, about three minutes to each, Okay,
that's my fifteen minutes. So yeah, that's what I'm trying
to do. I'm not going for the fifteen minutes of fame.
I'm going for the fifteen minutes of focus. Right, I
can really concentrate on a concept. And the concept here

(01:43:18):
for me is that Jesus came for me. Yeah. I know,
he came for you, he came for my kids, he
came for my grandkids. But I need to wrap my
arms around the fact that you know I'm a sinner.
I'm not very impressed with myself. Frankly, I don't know
how he could be. But for some reason, he created me,
he gifted me, he called me, he loves me, and

(01:43:42):
so he sent Jesus for me. And if I can
start getting into that frame of mind again, I mean,
it really does change the rest of mine.

Speaker 5 (01:43:50):
It's transformational, There's no doubt about it. How do you
not be transformed?

Speaker 2 (01:43:54):
Yeah? And so you know, then I come back up
and I look at all this research that I've been doing.
It's like, you know, but but you know, and even
the research I've been doing lately. You know that the
latest stuff has been on sin and salvation, which is
you know, intentional timing. At the end of the year,
I want people to be rethinking this whole idea of yes,

(01:44:17):
he came, he suffered for you, and he did it
with a purpose, and that's that he could live with
you forever. Because this latest research we're doing based on
salvation and sin is shown that Christians in America are
just so confused about all of this. We're not really
buying the biblical narrative about the fact that the only

(01:44:40):
pathway to eternity, where you're going to be in God's
presence is through Christ.

Speaker 4 (01:44:47):
Amen. That's it.

Speaker 5 (01:44:50):
You see. The thing is is that we're dealing with
the human condition. You know, you have a choice. You know,
you do the things of this world, you have your
own idea, right and ever since the fall, you know,
it really puts space between us and God. And Jesus
came so that we could have that communion with him.
So when we have that communion with Him, all of

(01:45:10):
a sudden, you know, we're a little bit smarter, George,
you know, and I'm not saying in that in a
worldly sort of way. It's just we are. We have
a better knowing as a result, not that it's perfect,
but you can start to see the difference, right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:45:27):
Absolutely. I'll tell you though, one of the things that
troubles me is the confusion that's in the minds and
hearts of so many millions of Christians about repentance. Because
as we did this research, one of the things we
learned is that most Christians quote unquote in America now

(01:45:48):
think of repentance as a feeling, just like we've converted
truth to a feeling as opposed to a reality. As
opposed to a reflection of God, who he is, what
he he knows, what he wants us to know and believe.
What we've done is we've made repentance into a feeling
of oh, Gosh, I made a mistake that's too bad,

(01:46:12):
as opposed to really being heartbroken over sin, knowing that
it breaks God's heart, it shatters our relationship with him,
and that's the very reason why Jesus, whose birth were
now celebrating, had to come back to earth and suffer
because of our sins, because of my sin. And so repentance,

(01:46:35):
when you study the word, it literally means to turn
around and go in a different direction. And so repentance
isn't merely saying, ah, I made a mistake. It's saying, oh, Gosh,
I did something that offends God, that hurts God, that
breaks his heart. And the only ways that I can
deal with that are number one, ask God to forgive

(01:46:57):
me through Christ, and secondly, to show that I'm so
sincere about not wanting to break his heart that I'm
going to turn around and go in a different direction.
I'm going to change my behavior, I'm going to change
my thinking, I'm going to change my language, whatever it
is so that I am doing the best that I can,
inviting the Holy Spirit to take over the steering wheel

(01:47:21):
on this journey where I'm trying to turn around and
go in a different direction. I want the Holy Spirit
to empower me now to speak, to live, to act differently,
so that I can really please, honor and respect this
God who's so awesome, so loving, so compassionate, so merciful
that he sent himself really to come back to earth

(01:47:44):
and to go through this whole developmental phase from infant
to child to teenage or to young adult to middle
aged adult, and to suffer along the way because of me,
I mean, to go through that whole process. Repentance is
something much more than we've made it to be for us.
It's like it after thought, Oh yeah, shee too bad,

(01:48:05):
I shouldn't have done that.

Speaker 5 (01:48:06):
What's next? Yeah, but what brings you to repentance? It's
kind of like, uh, what brought Nineveh to repentance is
they they caught it, they understood, they saw their wickedness,
and and they're and they're getting a word from you know,
from the prophet, the reluctant prophet, and uh, he comes

(01:48:28):
and says, hey, you guys are in trouble here, and
the Holy God is who is just and righteous, is
going to you know, render judgment on you. Are you
ready for that? Well they hurt that, you see. But
you say, in our in our culture, because we're moving,
you know, with our hair on fire, running around, especially
in this holiday season and everything. Like you said, uh,

(01:48:49):
we don't hit the pause button, but but really we're
encouraging everybody, including ourselves, to slow down, hit that pause
button and say, hey, how are you doing with God? Okay,
how is your relationship here? What are we doing? You know,
let's you know, like tuning up the guitar. You got
to tune up the guitar to the right notes, right,
so we got to tune up to God. And as
we tune up to God and realize, hey, we're we're

(01:49:12):
out of sync with God. We're out of tune with
God in these specific areas of our lives. And then
when you really press in and understand how bad it
is and how you know, how awful sounding your instrument
is compared to God's instrument, then you go, whoa, you know, hey,
I got to get I got to get this thing
tuned up here. And as you do, and you and

(01:49:33):
you consider the holiness of God, then it really causes
you to want to repent in such a way that hey, man,
you're looking at the animals. You're putting sackcloth on the
animals and everybody right, including yourself of course for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:49:49):
And one of the things that I've observed that I don't
have date on this, but just looking at my circles
of friends, we invest a lot of time during the
season in real relationships with each other and say, oh,
it's a great time for us to take some time together.
Come over, you know, we'll do whatever together for a
little while. And it's a big deal. But the nature

(01:50:10):
of our relationship with God needs to be central. You know,
what we're doing with Christ during this period of time
instead of just saying, Okay, you know, I'm going to
church on Christmas Eve, you know, check it off. Did
the relationship thing with Jesus. That's not good enough, That's
not all he wants, that's not all he deserves, that's
not all we deserve. We have better than that He

(01:50:33):
wants us to have, better than that, he wants us
to have him. And so you know, making that time, investing,
investing in this season. Don't invest in Mattel and Hasbro
invest in Jesus.

Speaker 4 (01:50:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:50:46):
Amen, and understand that. You know, as one devotionalized reading
this past week, it says, you know, approach God like beggars.
And I thought it was interesting. It really caught me.
I go, oh, like a beggar. Yeah, but understand this.
Keep begging, you know, don't you know you don't have
to just say okay, well you know I got this
from the banquet table. That's enough. Jesus saying no, no,

(01:51:06):
keep going, keep going. There's plenty. And and you know,
to your point here is we sell ourselves short because
we're quick to want to check a box and say, well,
been there, done that. And you know, the relationship with
God is intended to be ongoing, and he longs for
this communion. I mean this, this is really what breaks

(01:51:27):
the Father's heart more than anything else, is that communion
with him with his creation, the creation that he said, wow,
this is really good.

Speaker 4 (01:51:35):
Right yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:51:36):
And toward that end, I know we're probably running out
of time here, but I do want to get in
here that the research is also showing us that when
we think about our relationship with Christ, almost half of
the Christians in this country think it's Jesus plus. That
Jesus on the Cross wasn't enough. That there are other

(01:51:59):
ways to sell. It might be our works, it might
be some other God, it might be some other theological construct.
It might be a relationship quote unquote with the universe.
Whatever it is. And I want to encourage anybody who's listening,
just take a few moments this Christmas season to really

(01:52:20):
dig deep and examine what are you basing your thoughts
about your eternity on. Is it Jesus plus or is
it Jesus alone. If it's Jesus alone, great, Just then
spend the rest of your time celebrating Him this Christmas season,
and the.

Speaker 5 (01:52:35):
Works will take care of themselves, James says, right, they
will follow naturally because you're a transformed agent. You think different,
you do different, You are different, You do what you believe.

Speaker 2 (01:52:48):
So if you start believing right, and part of your
belief system is it's only Christ, there's nothing besides Him
that's going to save me, then that's going to start
to change your behavior right there. That it's momentum going
and before you know it, you're actually a follower of Christ.

Speaker 5 (01:53:04):
Yeah, and you're actually enjoying the peace of Christ. Yeah, yeah, right,
the piece that's immeasurable that we can't even imagine with
our human PENI thinking, you know, And like we said,
the banquet table that God has set out for us
is immeasurable. It's unending, and we want everybody to partake,

(01:53:26):
especially in this Christmas season, right, George, I'm gonna let
you wrap it up.

Speaker 2 (01:53:30):
Go ahead, Yeah, hey, you know what, what a great
time of year. We're still in a free country, Thank
God for that. And we have the opportunity to devote
as much time, energy and resources as we want to
honoring God, thanking Him for Christ coming down, experience joy
this season. I mean, really work at that. And it's

(01:53:52):
a life changer, it's game changer. Go for it, Enjoy it.

Speaker 5 (01:53:56):
Amen. He's the director of research at Arizona Christian University's
Cultural Search Center, author of Raising Spiritual Champions. Doctor George Barnham,
Merry Christmas, my friend, same to you, buddy.

Speaker 11 (01:54:07):
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Speaker 10 (01:54:13):
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Speaker 11 (01:54:20):
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Speaker 10 (01:54:22):
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Speaker 11 (01:54:29):
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Speaker 10 (01:54:31):
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Speaker 11 (01:54:41):
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Speaker 10 (01:54:44):
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Speaker 11 (01:54:48):
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Speaker 10 (01:54:50):
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Speaker 8 (01:54:53):
Eight hundred ninety five nine seven oh two oh eight
hundred ninety five nine seven oh two oh eight hundred
nine five nine seven O two O. That's eight hundred
nine five nine seventy twenty