August 21, 2025 • 49 mins
Malcolm Nance welcomes Rick Wilson to Black Man Spy.
The pair discuss the necessity of speaking up and using your voice. They also discuss the corruption of ICE, the Trump takeover in Washington D.C and the Trump-Putin summit.
If you liked this episode, leave a rating on Apple Podcasts or share it with a friend!
Click the link below to subscribe to our Newsletter:
https://malcolmnance.substack.com/
The pair discuss the necessity of speaking up and using your voice. They also discuss the corruption of ICE, the Trump takeover in Washington D.C and the Trump-Putin summit.
If you liked this episode, leave a rating on Apple Podcasts or share it with a friend!
Click the link below to subscribe to our Newsletter:
https://malcolmnance.substack.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We have a Gaheim Stattz pullet side gestopore literally on
the streets of America.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
If no badges, no name tags, no warrants shown, nothing.
But and by the way, uh, anybody can go on
fucking Amazon right now and by velcrow patches to put
on your plate carrier that say ICE or FBI or
Border Patrol. And these guys have no accountability at all.
(00:28):
And the excuse, oh, they're being dogs.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Fuck off, no, fuck off FU.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
This is going I'm gonna quote one of my favorite movies,
right Tom Clancy's Hunt for Red October.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
This is gonna this.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Is black Man Spy. Hi, I'm Malcolm nance. Welcome to
this week's episode of Black Man's Spy. And it's going
to be a good one because I have on Rick Wilson,
outspoken Republican strategist, leading conservative critic of Donald Trump, co
founder of the Lincoln Project, New York Times bestselling author,
(01:16):
and host of The Enemy's List podcast. This is going
to be interesting, principally because I know how this is
going to go. I have a list of questions, and
when I have people who are as interesting in as
dynamic as Rick is going to be, it's going to
spin out of control.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
So without further ado, let's talk to Rick Wilson.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Rick Wilson, Welcome to this week's episode of Black Man Spy.
And then if there was a better time to get you,
I have to tell you it's I always say that
that I'm sort of now the shouty voice of the
(02:02):
of the normal common sense American resistance. On Stephanie Miller's show,
they call me shouty mixed shout face. And then I
see your commentary and I you and Steve Schmidt, amongst others,
and I go, wow, I'm really mute.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah, there's a there's a group of us who are
not exactly uh not exactly quiet in our in our
disappointment with the behavior of this current administration.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Joe Walsh is another one, right, Yeah, cow, that guy's Joe.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Joe has the heat.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Yeah, well, you know it brings the heat.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
And this this comes to a point when I left
MSNBC and I joined the Ukrainian Army, and then I
came back.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
One of the most relieving components of.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
That is I could really say what I wanted to
say to people. And at one point I had gotten
to to slinging you know, I was having a bunch
of right wingers come after me, and I was getting
to the point where I was just slinging Yo mama, Adam,
And in fact I got to crushed some big two
(03:10):
million follower influenzer by going yo mama.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
And then almost immediately.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
You came out and did it to someone else, and
I was like, oh, I could probably get a job
at a future administration now this we've we've decided.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
To level the communications playing field.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
But you know it's important, though, to fight where the
fight is. Yes, you know a lot of people who
are like, well we'll show win this next selection with
our policy papers and the gentlemen's fisticuffs. No, you will,
it's gonna be a bar fight.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Let me get my cool exauce, you, sir, are far too.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Hot, and I've complained about that in the last few
podcasts and we're gonna get on that a little bit
further on sure. But but the point that I'm trying
to get across us to the listener's viewers here is
very simple.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
There is a place to raise your voice.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
There is a time and to elevate the conversation to
where you are going to have to uh you know,
you know, devolve into insults to recalibrate their positioning. A
lot of the people that attack me, mainly VET bros. Really,
you know, you have these maga VET bros that they
(04:27):
now own the military right, and.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
You know they come after you with they do. Yeah,
well they at least they think they do.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
But these people will come after you, and they're angry
when you don't play by the rules they've set for you,
Rick Wilson, which is to be the person who will
actually engage them in debate and discussion while they're insulting.
You know, in my instance, my late wife for example,
(04:57):
in her military tombstone, there's this weird thing going on,
and to me it's like, you know, okay, I can
engage in combat as well. My question, first question before
we get onto Trump Rush it is, you know, how
do we encourage other people, particularly our elected politicians, to
(05:18):
understand that this isn't This isn't bringing a knife to
a knife fight. Okay, this is bringing an atomic bomb
to a knife fight.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
There there is there is a lesson that I that
I after ten years of doing this, of fighting this
authoritarian this rising authoritarian movement, is that courage is the
highest virtue. And if you were not afraid of people,
what they're gonna say about you, or what they're gonna
say to you, or what they're gonna how they're gonna
try to diss you, or or how they're gonna try
to to to intimidate you. If you're not afraid of them,
(05:50):
you have a superpower. If you're not afraid of people,
you have a superpower. Their superpower is shamelessness. Ours has
to be courage. And this is a world where they
know that a lot of people will shut up. They
know a lot of people will back down. They know
a lot of people will go, oh, man, I don't
want to have to deal with my boss or my friends,
or my neighbors, or my wife or my husband, or
(06:11):
my friends or my family, you know, with them about
being in a fight. Look, not everybody is suited for it,
I get it. But everybody who's going to resist this
movement that's happening in this country is eventually going to
be called on to step up to that line and
say something publicly and say I'm not going to do this.
I'm not going to tolerate that. I'm not going to
be quiet when you people do shit that is against
(06:33):
the Constitution and the law and American values. And if
you learn to do that, I listen, I tell people
this all the time. I sleep great at night. I
don't worry about anybody. I just don't. I stop giving
a fuck about what they think about me, and therefore
I can speak the truth and don't worry about it.
It's a really it's an important power.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Yeah, And in fact, I would like to say it is.
It really releases you. And that's what I would drawing
at at the beginning of this. It releases you from
the conventions that say if you speak your mind, if
you live as a true American patriot who has an
opposing opinion and is willing to shout or engage in,
(07:15):
you know, slinging obscenities when necessary, you don't have to.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Worry about that anymore.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I think it was Jasmine Crockett the other day who
was having that talk about the standards to become a president.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Right, and it's like done.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
You know, I can shoot puppies because the Secretary of
Homeland Security murdered dogs and goats. And I don't ever
want to hear anybody say, well, I'm sorry, you know
you can't.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
You don't meet that standard.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
We have got the lowest standards in American history right now.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
The bar is the bar is subterranean right now, Yes,
but the bar is subterranean for pea people who are Subterraneans, right,
for people who don't care about you know.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
That old thing about the pig and the mud liking
to fight? You know, yeah, pigs like to fight and
they get moddy and you get muddy too, But you
should then take them to the slaughterhouse.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
That is that That is exactly where I was headed
with this, as a person who has had some small
experience with dealing with rearing pigs at one point in
my life, and also with wild boar and wild hog infestations.
Let me tell you the slaughterhouse part is the part
where where the where the tally gets leveled out. We're
all the where, all the where, all the messiness gets
(08:38):
leveled out. And they think you won't. If they think
you won't fight with them, then they will keep pressing,
you know that old that old thing about the bayonet
goes in until it hits bone. Right, They will keep
pressing and keep pressing, and keep trying to hurt you,
keep trying to fuck you up until you fight back.
So you know, people who who And there are still
(08:59):
people today who are confused, like last weekend or two
weekends too. Excuse me. There's a article in New York
Times magazine about this Lincoln project ad we did about
the the Kendrick lamar at we did about Trump, not
like us about the pedophilia right right. And the guy
who was writing is like, I couldn't figure it out.
I could. I it was powerful, but his brain wasn't
(09:20):
like connecting to why we did it that way. It's
because you have to fight where the fight is. You know,
like you said, you don't bring you don't bring a
knife to a nuke fight. You don't bring a throw
pillow to a gunfight. You fight in the way that
people are paying attention now in this economy of mental
headspace being where the politics is waged.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
So you know, but this brings the question, why do
I have to lean into a group of former Republicans?
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Who I was a former Republican. I was a Colin
pal style Republican. The first person I were voted for,
unfortunately was Ronald Bregan. And uh, you know, national security
strong socially liberal we all come down in the lower
quadrant of the X y axis.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Now, why are the normal things that we used to have.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Why are these former Republicans in the Lincoln Project the
real voice of the resistance for the Democratic Party.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Look, there are plenty of people in the democratic world
that are that are that are fighting, but a lot
of them are fighting in the old way. Like I
said a minute ago, it's like I still hear from
Democrats like we will win on our prescription drug policy
or our education. I'm like, no, you won't.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
You won't.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
God bless you you, you sweet summer children, but you
will not win on those things. Those are not where
the voters are. And if you think that's where the
voters are, I have many bridges to sell you in
metropolitan areas. It just doesn't work that way. And while
while they mean well, and I'm a big believer, if
(11:01):
you've got a coalition, you got to like it's a
big coalition. Everybody's in the boat. We got to all
pull the oars in the same direction. Great, some people
are going to pull oars on policy and some are
going to pull it on organizing and voter registration. My
belief is there's got to be a role as I
think that's, you know, modestly, what we play at Lincoln
(11:21):
is a role of showing people how the other team
will set a narrative, how the other team will wage
a fight, how the other team will battle you, so
that you really understand and have ways to punch back
on a group of people who are really hardcore about
this stuff and who are really vicious about it.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Yeah, well, you're absolutely right about that.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
And it's easy to be hardcore when it's nineteen thirty
four and you're about to purge the brown Shirts and
create the you know, the black Shirts. We've got a
nation here that's got a lot of problems, and I
think that you're the Lincoln Project. Videos that you've done.
The most recent one done was the one where sex traffickers,
drug addicts, and serial killers would like to thank the
(12:06):
Republican Party for getting rid of the FBI and making
them a bunch of beat cops, right, and so that
now they and child traffickers and white collared criminals can steal,
rob murder, and traffic and children because there are now
no federal investigators investigating anything other than the Clinton's. The
(12:33):
kids down in Southeast DC, near the Navy Yard to
see if they're not walking straight from school, right, And
then they're investigating, Oh that's right, one thousand other FBI
officers that investigated the January sixth insurrectionists.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
So law enforcement isn't doing anything.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah, And I mean, look, one of the things that
I go back to a lot of the time, Malcolm
is is that there are there are reasons in this
world why crime is a problem in this country. There
are reasons that that that we need to face up
to about about uh, you know, how this country has
(13:13):
to has to to make the streets safer, a neighborhood safer.
Almost none of them involve guys in m raps parked
in front of the Union station or or as I
like to put it, in Georgetown with a bunch of
DEA agents outside of fire based Sephora in Georgetown. It's
all bullshit and they know it, and you know.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
You know what it is. They had to check, They
had to check the Phoenix.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Cafe to see if they're ready, right, and there are
reds of Palavi.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Right TAAs you got a caye.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
On M Street in Georgetown. This is crazy And you're
not joking about the m raps. I saw these max pros. Actually, yeah,
the the mind resistant armored personnel carriers belonging to the
FBI swat teams, and you know, just lined up out
there as a show of force.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Now, you know what, I gotta tell you something.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
There has never been a moment in the history of
the FBI where they were as as both seemingly heavy
politically and incompetent at the exact same time. Jay Edgar
Hoover could bring down strength. But he did it through
the credibility of the FBI being a heavy organization. It's
(14:33):
secret ability to investigate you and then when you woke
up one morning, they would be at your front door
with an indictment. Right now, it's you know, it's it's
it's it's Sergeant Mury.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
They're doing Sergeant Murphy.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
You know, walking up and down the block, you know,
you know, shaking his Shelley is shaking Billy. Keeping your
noses clean here knows there, Oh my god, fucking all
for Sir Krupke would be a pretty good analogy of
this from West Side story, right.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, I mean, look, none of this, none of this
had to happen this way, except for it had to
happen this way because Trump needed a distraction off of
Epstein all the other bullshit and and and this is
also about Trump had a lot of problems with his
base in the last couple of months because of Epstein,
and he needed something that was going to trigger his base.
(15:31):
And they were going to go, oh, yeah, the Boss
is back doing what we want. And you know, the
reality is, we can't pretend there's not a racial signifier
in this from Trump about why why I'm in DC?
Because those people need to be kept in check. And
it's he's talking to two groups of people. One is
(15:53):
national political reporters who all live in DC. Why why
are all the vehicles in the neighborhoods they live in
so that they'll report about Trump doing this? And the
other group is you know, the white male maga guy
out in Askrak, Arkansas, who is kind of pissed at
Trump because you won't release the Epstein files. But now
this is a good distraction.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
You know. And they love these military displays for people
who really don't like the military or veterans, and a
whole crew of veterans that.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Belong on that side of the aisle. They it's exciting
to them.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
This reminds me of the scene in the movie did
I say movie the documentary r Deocracy that was brought
back from the future where the lawyer and the lawyer
and the hero of the story are in a car
and the cops pull them over and they get out
(16:48):
to run, and then the cops just shoot the truck,
you know, with like ten thousand bullets, accidentally knocked down
an airplane out.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Of the sky.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
And even the lawyer who's from that society gets excited.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Now all the.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
They love the what we used to call them the
military bombs, guns and helicopter rids. They love the excitement
of seeing guys in tactical formation and checking to see
now because of MAGA has now militarized, they'd like to
see what you're wearing on your body armor, where are
your patches, where are your your med pouch and all
(17:26):
that stuff, And it's like, are you kidding me?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Are you kidding?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
This is what a lot of guy has devolved into.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of these guys who who
who clearly do not spend too much time in the
field with their five elevens and their and their and
their punish your t shirts underneath their body armor. I'm like,
come on, costplay motherfuckers.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Not a one of them has ever punish your comic books.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Obviously right, clearly these punisher would be shooting these guys,
all of them.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
I mean, it's just crazy.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
But you know, and I'm I'm sorry that we, you know,
for a national security podcast.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
I'm a son of Philadelphia, born, raised, steeped in It made.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
My decision to go into the military intelligence behind Independence
Hall when I was eighteen and next to Commodore Barry,
and I just find it absolutely infuriating that what I
have now is I have an America that is everything
that we were.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Warned about by the founding fathers. Everything, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
People always ask me who's your favorite founding father? For me,
I would all, you know, people go, oh, you must
be a Jefferson guy. You must be a Hamilton guy,
you must be a Franklin guy. I'm a George Washington guy.
Washington understood that his lieutenants, his subordinates, the Congress people
that he had to deal with, all had to be balanced,
(18:52):
and that balance was the most important factor and the
relinquishment of power in America.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
And that leads me to my technical.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Question that I ask almost every panelist that comes on here,
what the fuck?
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yeah, well, what the fuck is actually a really pendent question,
as they say what there are a couple of things
we have to understand about about where Trump is mentally
right now. He understands he is a survivor. Let's be
real about Trump, about one big thing. He is a
fucking survivor. This guy will push and push and push
(19:30):
and push like any bully. He'll push until he can't
push anymore. He's gonna keep pushing on one big thing
in the in the next two years of He wants
to come back in twenty twenty eight, and I honestly,
if we have a Republican Congress, there's a really good
chance they'll just go yeah, sure, boss. And he wants
to run this country as an authoritarian.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
He's not.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
This is a guy who is not interested in the
small D of democracy or the small R of republicanism.
This is a guy who really is a fan of
authoritarianism and kleptocracy and on oligarchy and feshions. But I
hate all those terms in a lot of ways. But
you know, if the jack boot fits wear it, this
(20:14):
is a guy who does not believe in America.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yeah, well, I think that he has his own vision
of America. Sure, the vision that I learned about when
I was a child, when I read the Richy Rich
comic books.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Right, you know, it's also a vision that you know,
back to the aforementioned founders, that the founders would go
get the fuck out of here. What are you talking about,
because as you mentioned Washington, Look, Washington believed that this
chief executive and he exercised, he lived this out to
the fullest. He believed the chief executive has always lived
(20:51):
with restraint and discipline and focus and to not ever
believe he was a king, because that was what we
had lost so many Americans fighting against. But when Washington
established the tradition of a peaceful departure from office, the
peaceful transfer of power, I mean, it's not like we
(21:11):
didn't learn that the son of a bitch would not
do that on January sixth, twenty twenty one. And so
what is what is anyone's belief structure that he's gonna
that he's gonna you know, if he has especially if
as a Republican majority, that the House doesn't just say nope,
we're certifying Donald Trump for a third term. Fuck you
you think the Supreme Court's gonna go against him?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Well, you know, I God had that discussion with with
uh uh Dahlia Lithwick about three weeks ago, and she
just straight up said, this Supreme Court has made a
decision as a conservative body that the only way to
move the conservative agenda in the is to use the
(21:54):
sixty three and to make any decision that is necessary to.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Further Donald Trump in the Republican power.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
And that should a president Alexandria Cassio Cortes or you know,
or Bernie Sanders, whoever comes from, they're going.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
To rediscover all of the prerogatives of the executive are
the of the legislative and judicial branch. If there's a
democratic president.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
And she said, they will shamelessly reverse them, shamelessly. But
what that gives us is that gives us a situation
where now the Supreme Court is now a body that
should not be believed, that will have no credibility that one.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I mean, I call it the Red Court, Malcolm, I
call it the Red Court. Now it is there's nothing
about them at this point in our history that you
give an American confidence that they're going to rule based
on the law. They have become the parody that they
that they claim they were against. Forever it was always
we don't want activist judges. Now they are the ultimate
(22:57):
activist judges.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, well, thesolutely are. I think they've also become a
form of Donald Trump's star Chamber, sure, where they are
identifying and uh, you know, executing policy that Trump himself
and you know, may not even know that he needs
to have. But by giving him these this unrestrained, unrestricted power, Uh,
(23:20):
they are making themselves. I mean, they're also nullifying themselves
in a way to become a you know, a rubber
stamps they have.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
They have walked away from there. They have walked away
from their constitutional obligations to balance executive power and to
and to validate the constitutionality of both legislative and executive actions.
They're just now like whatever you got, whatever you need, boss,
(23:50):
what do you what do you what do you want?
Speaker 1 (23:52):
It?
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Really, it should trouble people more than it does.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Frankly, well, you know, we're we're really in the slow
boil of the situation here. And of course the people
that I see that are calling it out the loudest,
apart from the Lincoln Project and some others. Uh, Gavin Newsom,
who who has clearly decided to incorporate the word sjahad.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Into into Hit the context of.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
How the l Newsom Gavin Newsom has figured it out?
What has he figured out? He's figured out where the
fight really is. He figured out how to go in
and and and attack Trump in a way that triggers
I mean, this is always the Republican Party of today,
the Maga party, I call it. Their whole thing is,
(24:40):
oh fuck, you're feeling snowflake. But now that Newsom has
learned how to perfectly mock Donald Trump. Watch Fox News
in the last twenty four hours and every show they're
like crapping themselves. Dana Britos like, oh damn, he engaged
in this absolutely outrageous man. Yes more, Gavin, do more.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Childlike behavior is what I think. One of the phrasing was,
does it you know what did she say?
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Does not the presidential.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Of a governor? Oh my gosh, get the smelling.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I I would like to just go ahead and and
and re reacquaint all the Fox News hosts with the
fact that Donald Trump is literally a guy who has
people exit through the fucking gift shop at the White House.
He's a rampant criminal, He's a scumbag, he's a pedophile
enabler with his buddy Jeffrey Epstein and Gawayne Maxwell. I
(25:33):
don't want to hear shit about shit from these people
about the dignity of the White House. When Donald fucking
Trump a man who wears heels and makeup uh every day,
and a and a bizarre like lemur for wig hair
hat thing, I don't want to hear anything about the
dignity of the White House. Newsom's brilliance here, his social
media team's brilliance here is that they've they started to
(25:55):
dismantle the the the meme image of Trump that exists
in the minds of his own voters. By holding this
mirror up to Trump's own voters, They're like, oh, yeah,
I guess maybe Donald doesn't really stand on the tank
with no shirt on, holding an M sixty firing it
at dinosaurs. You know, none of it, None of the
stuff that they always loved about how liberals were triggered
(26:19):
by Trump's mean war. When they have it put back
to them, oh my god, it just blows their minds.
They just lose their shit. It's kind of magnificent.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Well, I mean, I have certainly enjoyed this last week,
certainly with all of the rock generated photos, like you know,
Newsom and just dressed as Captain America. And then they
did that great side by side photo of Trump in
high school and no no jd vance and news them
(26:54):
was a great, great looking baseball vote American.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
I mean, come on, that was a handsome motherfucker.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
And you know the problem is is that now this
puts us in a sort of a bind.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Joy Reid and I were discussing this about four weeks ago.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
About why Democrats won't stand up as a body is
because they believe they have to have a leader, and
that the only time that they have a leader is
once every four years as they work their way towards
candidates for the presidency. And they don't believe in leadership
or it might be staring them in a face, they
(27:33):
just don't glom onto it the way that Republicans do.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Newsom is clearly out ahead of this.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
He decided he's going to be a leader. And if
that means he has to be a dick, well guess
what Churchill was a dick? Yes, Roosevelt was a dick.
Big leaders are often dicks. Be a dick sometimes it
doesn't kill you. In fact, the idea, the idea that
we're gonna win with somebody who who comes in and
(28:01):
has the soft like we're gonna all get back and
sing Kumbaya. No, that's all people are gonna are gonna buy.
They're not gonna pay for that. They're not gonna buy that.
They don't want that. They want a leader who understands
we're in a war with evil people and we're gonna
use all the techniques. And you know, we're starting to
we we sort of mildly say this now, but we're
(28:22):
starting to see some Lincoln Project style democrats out there
who are swinging at the fences, who who don't give
a fuck, who are not worried about whether The New
York Times says, this outrageous and transgressive behavior is not dignified.
Who fucking cares. Look who we're up against. We're up
against a multi billion dollar enterprise what I call the
hate machine, and it is. It is everything from these
(28:48):
Silicon Valley authoritarian tech bros who don't believe in democracy,
to the MAGA media complex, which is ten times larger
than the rest of the media, combined to this culture
war shit that goes on forever and ever and ever,
all of it together is a very grim place for
America to find itself. And if we don't start fighting
(29:11):
against that gigantic hate machine in a way that penetrates
with voters, they will win.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yeah, well, they're going to win because they rely on
our apathy.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
You know, I have this bumper sticker on my car.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I covered my my Biden Harris sticker with this one
that said, you know, uh, you know what was it
by Plato that all it requires for evil men to
win is.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
The apathy of the voters paraphrasing and and it's as
simple as that.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
We have three Americas and I'm actually working now with
you know, I have a new Political Action Committee FAIFOX
pack right, FAFOA focus, but it stands for focused Action,
Focused Objectives because one of the things I've noticed about
these packs is they like to go out and they
like to collect money. They don't really do anything. You
(30:03):
guys do something. You put messages out. I wish they
could be broadcast on you know, cable television into the
red zones in order to you know, rile them up
even further, any.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Billionaire, any billionaires listening, give me a call, will be
up on the air and about a day if you had.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
We had that discussion last week. There are no such
thing as liberal billionaires. There are none. No one can
seem to give anyone a dime. Uh.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
The ones that they.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Do are waiting for the leader to shake up through,
you know, and emerge for the presidential and then they
will give money in the low millions. Uh.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
There is no Sheldon Adamson who's going.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
To shell out one hundred you know, million dollars at
one time and then buy his wife.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Yeah, there is really at this point no democratic Elon
Musk who spent there is a million two to fifty
million dollars last time, which was real money.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
M m yeah, and he got it all back and
like day and interest.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yeah. Hey, Look a lot of what we do today,
we a lot of our advertising is very digitally focused.
We've got very good data on who to talk to.
But you know, this idea that the other side is
going to leave any tool unused is just wrong. People
better be ready. This is going to be a wild
election in twenty twenty six. The role of AI in
(31:22):
this election, the role of disinformation will never be more
powerful than what you're about to see. And the shenanigans
that are going to happen in this in this election
cycle are will make anything we've had in the past
look mild by comparison.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Yeah, and this is my problem, because mild by comparison
can get pretty damn wild.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
It was it really struck.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Me that in the run up to the twenty twenty
election or twenty twenty four election, that every time there's
a movie that comes out that's done by a conservative
or somebody who I don't know, that the timing would
be clever. Twenty sixteen, it was that movie Benghazi, super
Soakers of Benghazi whatever, thirteen hours hours know a little
(32:11):
bit of something about Benghazianzazi during twenty eleven, in all
that period of time was actually on in an airport
going to Tripoli that day that the embassy was taken.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
I worked over there.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
But that movie changed a lot of needles in the
white guy brow sphere on the.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Meta narrative of Hillary Clinton herself.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Personally personally denied them drone coverage and all that shit.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Okay, the physics space and time actually have to be
adhered to all that intelligence stuff.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Not to mention the CIA staff.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
And that building were all combat veterans from Iraq, Afghanistan.
Then the paramilitary force showed up. They made it look
like that with some sort of accident. But prior to
twenty twenty four was the movie Civil War.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
And I'm telling you I'm a gun collector, I'm a
long range shooter. I hang out, you know, in these
websites where these guys are at, and there's an entire
body of fat, beer drinking, never done nothing, never see
team the government, motherfuckers, Meal Team six right, gravy seals,
(33:28):
every one of them. Really led me to actually, these
people led me to write my last book. They want
to kill Americans right that there were Americans right now
who are hot and heavy, to dress like Ice is
doing right now, the SWAT teams, to get out there
and to become, as I said on Bill Maher famously
(33:50):
self deputized. If Donald Trump wins that they will be
his unofficial maybe even deputized in forcers. If this moves
to bigger cities and we see.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Resistance, armed resistance, because.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
We're just I believe we're just one gun battle away
from the You know, the South and the West screaming
about we've got to protect ourselves from the brown people
who have guns and somebody going out there and some
militia doing a massacre.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
But you can see right now you've got these governors
who are pushing National Guard troops to d C suddenly
all over the South, which, by the way, Mississippi, Louisiana, Florida,
Georgia all have vastly higher crime rates per capita than
DC does, not any question. But they're sending their guys there,
and and a lot of people are now sort of
(34:46):
fetishizing this whole bullshit, thinking, oh, well, you know, I
could be an Ice Sky too. I could get the bonus.
I could go kick down doors. You know, I could
be one of these bad asses, you know, riding around
in DC or riding around, you know, in LA, and
I could I could put those people in their place.
And it's it's fucked up, it's sick, it's stupid. But
(35:09):
but your book was right, there is a cultural thing,
and and and guys like you in particular have seen
this up close radicalization. There's not a vast sea of
difference between that weirdo maga gun guy on on you know,
(35:30):
ar fifteen dot com or whatever the fuck now MARF
comes a little different. There's some more crazy parts of that.
And and and somebody who was brought into ISIS or
al Qaeda, they are they read these sacred texts, they
watch these videos, they get they get told over and
over again. Maybe you'll die, but you'll be remembered as
(35:50):
the hero who saved your people. Right and that ship,
that shit should scare Americans tremendously because Americans aren't supposed
to live in that in that world.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
The problem is, I think they're bemused right now. And
I think I you know, I said this the other day.
I can't remember which platform it was. I'm disgusted with
the news media that are not shouting as loud as
you and I right now about the loss of American rights,
American citizens being arrested, these takedowns in the streets. We
(36:23):
have a geheim stattz pullet side gestopore literally on the
streets of America.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
If no badges, no name tags, no warrants shown, nothing.
But and by the way, anybody can go on fucking
Amazon right now and by velcrow patches to put on
your plate carrier that say ICE or FBI or Border Patrol,
and that's right. These guys have no accountability at all.
(36:52):
And the excuse, oh, they're being dogs.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Fuck off, no, fuck off, fuck and we need to
recalibrate that. I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan
of law and order. I trained hundreds and hundreds of
cops encounter terrorism, hundreds multiple states where I've trained these guys,
and they were all about doing it by procedure, that
saw themselves as the arbiter of you know, good versus evil.
(37:17):
And now they have been slow roasted into believing that, hey,
maybe we you know, maybe Pinochet was right taking people
over the Pacific Ocean and dumping them out of aircraft.
Maybe the Argentinian junta were right in destroying the Pactos.
Maybe we should be the ton Tom mccoot of white
men in the United States. This is going I'm gonna
(37:42):
quote one of my favorite movies, right, Tom Clancy's for
Red October.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
This is gonna control.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
And we don't seem to have anyone because I'm sorry
to say it, the median rational man in America was
the educated government serviced white men, right, But those men
in the past were steeped in World War Two and
(38:12):
the in the in the in the war against communism,
there was a a patriotic intellectual basis behind it to
where you would never get somebody reading the National Review
talking about, well, maybe we should just go over and
become part of maos China or side ourselves with you know,
Bresnev's communism. The way that it's happening now, and it's
(38:36):
not ignorance.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
They're educated.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
White men are now viewing themselves as part of the
white male tribe and that Trump is their avatar of greatness.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
It's a ridiculous avatar. And again, this is a guy
who has never spent five minutes outside that wasn't on
a golf course. This is never a guy who has
who has fired a gun. This is never a guy
who has suffered any kind of moment that wasn't gonna
be you know, taken care of by daddy or by
lawyers in his whole life. And the irony is you
(39:12):
have people who who entered service in law enforcement a
lot of times with good intentions and now they are
serving someone who is who a doesn't give a fuck
about them, and it'd be is evil. I mean that
that to me is. We can't under underscore or undercount
the fact that Trump is a bad human being. He's
(39:34):
he's not a not a good guy. He's not a
he's not a person you could you should role model after.
He's not a person you should want your kids to
to emulate. Let's put it that way.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I mean, he's the single most documented liar in American history,
and those he thought that thirty three thousand, eight years ago.
I mean, the man has probably pushed one hundred thousand lives,
you know, and he's.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
A pathological liary. It just happens.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
It's yeah, right, Nothing about Donald Trump's lying is is deliberate.
It's all just a reflex action. He'll lie just because
just because telling the truth isn't isn't like easy. He
lies because it's easy to lie.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
You know.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Well, that gives me a quick hot moment to transition
to our last question about the the I don't even
want to use the word summit.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
I guess the annual fitness evaluation, that's right.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
But my favorite part of that idiocy and disgrace that
I saw was when Trump was on the was on
the red carpet, and Putin was coming down. Trump started
clapping like a train seal. But I realized just as
I'm asking the question, the last place that I saw
(40:57):
that was the video of him standing next to Jeffrey
Epstein clapping when the dancers were there, And it's like.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Oh my god, what is that?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Beyond good romance, holy ship, there's an ad.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
I get paid in double express a Starbucks card.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
But it's it's it's a it was a disgrace. But
I think within him these this is his this is
his guys. Yeah, poot comic booty booth. And you know
he so admires well.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
First off, he clearly admires the palace in Leningrad that
he had right and the right.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Because he's turned the Oval office into like Timu Liberachi
Bukacki on the walls whatever.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
I was gonna say, Liberachi put but Bys maybe better
just yes, crazy.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
He he he loved the trappings of royalty. He's always
loved the royal the royalty angle of anything he loves.
And he looks at Putin as the king of Russia.
He doesn't say he's the jailer of Russia. He's the
oppressor of Russia, the dictator of Russia. He thinks he's
the king, and Trump would love to see a world divided.
(42:20):
And this this, I won't say this is a completely
articulated thing in Trump's mind, but there are people around
him who like this. Uh. They want to see a
world where Putin controls Europe and Trump controls the Americas
and Canada, and she controls China. They think the world
should be divided up into three and and and and
that way, you know, Trump can maximize the profit center
(42:44):
that he has developed here in America, Putin can do
his thing. They hate Europe. You know, Africa becomes a
jump ball, and the Chinese the Russians fight it out there,
and and and and as you know, this is a
This is a world where Russia is a third rate
military power with a first rate propaganda service and a
(43:05):
first rate intelligence service. You know, China is both bigger
and smaller than it seems as a threat. But the
idea that America would send what would would would invite
a dictator to our soil, a war criminal to our soil,
force American troops on their hands and knees to roll
(43:26):
out a red carpet, and that Trump would act like
he's meeting his long lost high school girlfriend, it's disgusting, man,
it's it's fucking repulsive.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Or Jeffrey Epstein goor.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Jeffrey Epstein at a party.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
I thought she was sixteen.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
I did, I swear, you know I did.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
This analysis when I wrote by the way, that tripolar
world I wrote a whole book about called the.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
Plot to Destroy Democracy, and that.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Trump really wanted to be to break that world depart
Alexander Dugan's philosophy of Neo Eurasianism, Russia taking Europe, the
United States taking the Western hemisphere, and that Trump really
wanted to be part of what I call the Axis
of Autocrats yep. And he wants Hungary, Egypt, Israel under
(44:19):
net and Yahoo. These people align themselves around money that
is so high that it's above governments but beyond the
ola garky, the global garky is what I called it.
And the only time they meet is that parties are
on their mega one hundred million dollar mega yachts.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Right. And look again, I'm going to even seed this
point for one second, although it galls me to do it.
Speaker 3 (44:47):
Oh jeez.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
There are people who support Donald Trump who believe they
are patriotic Americans, who believe that because of all the
propaganda they've consumed over twenty five thirty years of Fox
that it's communism or Trump mm hmm. But everything that
they projected on what the communists wanted to do Trump does.
(45:11):
Using the secret police to oppress people. That's Trump taking
over to control a private enterprise. That's Trump governing above
the rule of law. That's Trump. None of the things
that Trump does dismays them. They don't get mad about it.
They're like, oh, okay, well, it's just Trump and Trump.
(45:32):
But the structure they're building with him is authoritarianism. It
is and it is in fact increasingly fucking com state
state communism because Trump's like, I want to own and tell,
and I want to own this company, and the America
should tell TikTok, we should own TikTok. All these things
they add up, Malcolm to a very fucked up, not
(45:54):
American version of the presidency, not American version of of
of what people claim to want and should want.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Okay, I've got to get a coffee into me right now,
because that's the only thing that's gonna calm me down
is a triple expresso. It just gets more and more depressing. Well,
Rick Wilson, Thank you for coming, and we.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Will keep swinging the sword suck. All right, brother, good
talking to you man. We'll see you soon.
Speaker 3 (46:26):
All right, take care? What did I tell you this?
Speaker 1 (46:33):
Sitting down with Rick Wilson is like sitting down with
a case of dynamite and twenty four back of Budweiser. Right,
You just feel like you're gonna have to put a
match to those things and throw them.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
Into the water and see how many fish come up.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
I mean, I always go into these podcasts with guests
like Rick and I feel like, oh, this is going
to be not only interesting, we will have a way
of making this descent roller coaster like descent into Hell
and the end of democracy a little more amusing. But
(47:10):
more importantly, I learn a lot more than even the
silly questions that I ask. And I had a whole
series of questions. This was supposed to have been all
about Trump and putin far less important than the damage
that's being done not only to our national security but
to the foundations and structures of American democracy itself. We
(47:32):
have a city that is being occupied by US forces.
That is the only way to describe it. We have
an American gestapo force that is rising up, and sometimes
you got to attack that like Gavin Newsom's doing with humor,
or sometimes you got to frame it the right way,
the way the Lincoln Project and guys who are shouty
(47:55):
like Rick Wilson do it with that hoof Thank you
for coming to another episode of Black Man's Spy. You
can listen to black Man's Spy on Apple, Stitcher, your
other fine podcast locations. I am principally found at Malcolm
Nance dot on now Malcolm Nance at substack dot com,
(48:20):
sorry about that, or Malcolm Nance dot bsky dot com
at blue Sky at.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
Malcolm Nance on Twitter.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
I'm on Facebook somewhere and YouTube the black Man Spy podcast.
Listen to it, subscribe to it. It doesn't cost anything
to describe to all these subscribe to all of these podcasts.
But my long format deep national security analysis is done
on substack.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
Please become a subscriber on substack.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
And with that, I'm gonna go get that Triple Express
though I was talking about, because right now I'm so
stoked a Triple Express. So we'll bring me down, like
I saidative, So I will see you next week on
the beach.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
H m hm
We have a Gaheim Stattz pullet side gestopore literally on
the streets of America.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
If no badges, no name tags, no warrants shown, nothing.
But and by the way, uh, anybody can go on
fucking Amazon right now and by velcrow patches to put
on your plate carrier that say ICE or FBI or
Border Patrol. And these guys have no accountability at all.
(00:28):
And the excuse, oh, they're being dogs.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Fuck off, no, fuck off FU.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
This is going I'm gonna quote one of my favorite movies,
right Tom Clancy's Hunt for Red October.
Speaker 4 (00:41):
This is gonna this.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Is black Man Spy. Hi, I'm Malcolm nance. Welcome to
this week's episode of Black Man's Spy. And it's going
to be a good one because I have on Rick Wilson,
outspoken Republican strategist, leading conservative critic of Donald Trump, co
founder of the Lincoln Project, New York Times bestselling author,
(01:16):
and host of The Enemy's List podcast. This is going
to be interesting, principally because I know how this is
going to go. I have a list of questions, and
when I have people who are as interesting in as
dynamic as Rick is going to be, it's going to
spin out of control.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
So without further ado, let's talk to Rick Wilson.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Rick Wilson, Welcome to this week's episode of Black Man Spy.
And then if there was a better time to get you,
I have to tell you it's I always say that
that I'm sort of now the shouty voice of the
(02:02):
of the normal common sense American resistance. On Stephanie Miller's show,
they call me shouty mixed shout face. And then I
see your commentary and I you and Steve Schmidt, amongst others,
and I go, wow, I'm really mute.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah, there's a there's a group of us who are
not exactly uh not exactly quiet in our in our
disappointment with the behavior of this current administration.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Joe Walsh is another one, right, Yeah, cow, that guy's Joe.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Joe has the heat.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Yeah, well, you know it brings the heat.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
And this this comes to a point when I left
MSNBC and I joined the Ukrainian Army, and then I
came back.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
One of the most relieving components of.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
That is I could really say what I wanted to
say to people. And at one point I had gotten
to to slinging you know, I was having a bunch
of right wingers come after me, and I was getting
to the point where I was just slinging Yo mama, Adam,
And in fact I got to crushed some big two
(03:10):
million follower influenzer by going yo mama.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
And then almost immediately.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
You came out and did it to someone else, and
I was like, oh, I could probably get a job
at a future administration now this we've we've decided.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
To level the communications playing field.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
But you know it's important, though, to fight where the
fight is. Yes, you know a lot of people who
are like, well we'll show win this next selection with
our policy papers and the gentlemen's fisticuffs. No, you will,
it's gonna be a bar fight.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Let me get my cool exauce, you, sir, are far too.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Hot, and I've complained about that in the last few
podcasts and we're gonna get on that a little bit
further on sure. But but the point that I'm trying
to get across us to the listener's viewers here is
very simple.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
There is a place to raise your voice.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
There is a time and to elevate the conversation to
where you are going to have to uh you know,
you know, devolve into insults to recalibrate their positioning. A
lot of the people that attack me, mainly VET bros. Really,
you know, you have these maga VET bros that they
(04:27):
now own the military right, and.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
You know they come after you with they do. Yeah,
well they at least they think they do.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
But these people will come after you, and they're angry
when you don't play by the rules they've set for you,
Rick Wilson, which is to be the person who will
actually engage them in debate and discussion while they're insulting.
You know, in my instance, my late wife for example,
(04:57):
in her military tombstone, there's this weird thing going on,
and to me it's like, you know, okay, I can
engage in combat as well. My question, first question before
we get onto Trump Rush it is, you know, how
do we encourage other people, particularly our elected politicians, to
(05:18):
understand that this isn't This isn't bringing a knife to
a knife fight. Okay, this is bringing an atomic bomb
to a knife fight.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
There there is there is a lesson that I that
I after ten years of doing this, of fighting this
authoritarian this rising authoritarian movement, is that courage is the
highest virtue. And if you were not afraid of people,
what they're gonna say about you, or what they're gonna
say to you, or what they're gonna how they're gonna
try to diss you, or or how they're gonna try
to to to intimidate you. If you're not afraid of them,
(05:50):
you have a superpower. If you're not afraid of people,
you have a superpower. Their superpower is shamelessness. Ours has
to be courage. And this is a world where they
know that a lot of people will shut up. They
know a lot of people will back down. They know
a lot of people will go, oh, man, I don't
want to have to deal with my boss or my friends,
or my neighbors, or my wife or my husband, or
(06:11):
my friends or my family, you know, with them about
being in a fight. Look, not everybody is suited for it,
I get it. But everybody who's going to resist this
movement that's happening in this country is eventually going to
be called on to step up to that line and
say something publicly and say I'm not going to do this.
I'm not going to tolerate that. I'm not going to
be quiet when you people do shit that is against
(06:33):
the Constitution and the law and American values. And if
you learn to do that, I listen, I tell people
this all the time. I sleep great at night. I
don't worry about anybody. I just don't. I stop giving
a fuck about what they think about me, and therefore
I can speak the truth and don't worry about it.
It's a really it's an important power.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Yeah, And in fact, I would like to say it is.
It really releases you. And that's what I would drawing
at at the beginning of this. It releases you from
the conventions that say if you speak your mind, if
you live as a true American patriot who has an
opposing opinion and is willing to shout or engage in,
(07:15):
you know, slinging obscenities when necessary, you don't have to.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Worry about that anymore.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
I think it was Jasmine Crockett the other day who
was having that talk about the standards to become a president.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Right, and it's like done.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
You know, I can shoot puppies because the Secretary of
Homeland Security murdered dogs and goats. And I don't ever
want to hear anybody say, well, I'm sorry, you know
you can't.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
You don't meet that standard.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
We have got the lowest standards in American history right now.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
The bar is the bar is subterranean right now, Yes,
but the bar is subterranean for pea people who are Subterraneans, right,
for people who don't care about you know.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
That old thing about the pig and the mud liking
to fight? You know, yeah, pigs like to fight and
they get moddy and you get muddy too, But you
should then take them to the slaughterhouse.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
That is that That is exactly where I was headed
with this, as a person who has had some small
experience with dealing with rearing pigs at one point in
my life, and also with wild boar and wild hog infestations.
Let me tell you the slaughterhouse part is the part
where where the where the tally gets leveled out. We're
all the where, all the where, all the messiness gets
(08:38):
leveled out. And they think you won't. If they think
you won't fight with them, then they will keep pressing,
you know that old that old thing about the bayonet
goes in until it hits bone. Right, They will keep
pressing and keep pressing, and keep trying to hurt you,
keep trying to fuck you up until you fight back.
So you know, people who who And there are still
(08:59):
people today who are confused, like last weekend or two
weekends too. Excuse me. There's a article in New York
Times magazine about this Lincoln project ad we did about
the the Kendrick lamar at we did about Trump, not
like us about the pedophilia right right. And the guy
who was writing is like, I couldn't figure it out.
I could. I it was powerful, but his brain wasn't
(09:20):
like connecting to why we did it that way. It's
because you have to fight where the fight is. You know,
like you said, you don't bring you don't bring a
knife to a nuke fight. You don't bring a throw
pillow to a gunfight. You fight in the way that
people are paying attention now in this economy of mental
headspace being where the politics is waged.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
So you know, but this brings the question, why do
I have to lean into a group of former Republicans?
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Who I was a former Republican. I was a Colin
pal style Republican. The first person I were voted for,
unfortunately was Ronald Bregan. And uh, you know, national security
strong socially liberal we all come down in the lower
quadrant of the X y axis.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Now, why are the normal things that we used to have.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Why are these former Republicans in the Lincoln Project the
real voice of the resistance for the Democratic Party.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Look, there are plenty of people in the democratic world
that are that are that are fighting, but a lot
of them are fighting in the old way. Like I
said a minute ago, it's like I still hear from
Democrats like we will win on our prescription drug policy
or our education. I'm like, no, you won't.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
You won't.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
God bless you you, you sweet summer children, but you
will not win on those things. Those are not where
the voters are. And if you think that's where the
voters are, I have many bridges to sell you in
metropolitan areas. It just doesn't work that way. And while
while they mean well, and I'm a big believer, if
(11:01):
you've got a coalition, you got to like it's a
big coalition. Everybody's in the boat. We got to all
pull the oars in the same direction. Great, some people
are going to pull oars on policy and some are
going to pull it on organizing and voter registration. My
belief is there's got to be a role as I
think that's, you know, modestly, what we play at Lincoln
(11:21):
is a role of showing people how the other team
will set a narrative, how the other team will wage
a fight, how the other team will battle you, so
that you really understand and have ways to punch back
on a group of people who are really hardcore about
this stuff and who are really vicious about it.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Yeah, well, you're absolutely right about that.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
And it's easy to be hardcore when it's nineteen thirty
four and you're about to purge the brown Shirts and
create the you know, the black Shirts. We've got a
nation here that's got a lot of problems, and I
think that you're the Lincoln Project. Videos that you've done.
The most recent one done was the one where sex traffickers,
drug addicts, and serial killers would like to thank the
(12:06):
Republican Party for getting rid of the FBI and making
them a bunch of beat cops, right, and so that
now they and child traffickers and white collared criminals can steal,
rob murder, and traffic and children because there are now
no federal investigators investigating anything other than the Clinton's. The
(12:33):
kids down in Southeast DC, near the Navy Yard to
see if they're not walking straight from school, right, And
then they're investigating, Oh that's right, one thousand other FBI
officers that investigated the January sixth insurrectionists.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
So law enforcement isn't doing anything.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah, And I mean, look, one of the things that
I go back to a lot of the time, Malcolm
is is that there are there are reasons in this
world why crime is a problem in this country. There
are reasons that that that we need to face up
to about about uh, you know, how this country has
(13:13):
to has to to make the streets safer, a neighborhood safer.
Almost none of them involve guys in m raps parked
in front of the Union station or or as I
like to put it, in Georgetown with a bunch of
DEA agents outside of fire based Sephora in Georgetown. It's
all bullshit and they know it, and you know.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
You know what it is. They had to check, They
had to check the Phoenix.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Cafe to see if they're ready, right, and there are
reds of Palavi.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Right TAAs you got a caye.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
On M Street in Georgetown. This is crazy And you're
not joking about the m raps. I saw these max pros. Actually, yeah,
the the mind resistant armored personnel carriers belonging to the
FBI swat teams, and you know, just lined up out
there as a show of force.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Now, you know what, I gotta tell you something.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
There has never been a moment in the history of
the FBI where they were as as both seemingly heavy
politically and incompetent at the exact same time. Jay Edgar
Hoover could bring down strength. But he did it through
the credibility of the FBI being a heavy organization. It's
(14:33):
secret ability to investigate you and then when you woke
up one morning, they would be at your front door
with an indictment. Right now, it's you know, it's it's
it's it's Sergeant Mury.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
They're doing Sergeant Murphy.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
You know, walking up and down the block, you know,
you know, shaking his Shelley is shaking Billy. Keeping your
noses clean here knows there, Oh my god, fucking all
for Sir Krupke would be a pretty good analogy of
this from West Side story, right.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Yeah, I mean, look, none of this, none of this
had to happen this way, except for it had to
happen this way because Trump needed a distraction off of
Epstein all the other bullshit and and and this is
also about Trump had a lot of problems with his
base in the last couple of months because of Epstein,
and he needed something that was going to trigger his base.
(15:31):
And they were going to go, oh, yeah, the Boss
is back doing what we want. And you know, the
reality is, we can't pretend there's not a racial signifier
in this from Trump about why why I'm in DC?
Because those people need to be kept in check. And
it's he's talking to two groups of people. One is
(15:53):
national political reporters who all live in DC. Why why
are all the vehicles in the neighborhoods they live in
so that they'll report about Trump doing this? And the
other group is you know, the white male maga guy
out in Askrak, Arkansas, who is kind of pissed at
Trump because you won't release the Epstein files. But now
this is a good distraction.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
You know. And they love these military displays for people
who really don't like the military or veterans, and a
whole crew of veterans that.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Belong on that side of the aisle. They it's exciting
to them.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
This reminds me of the scene in the movie did
I say movie the documentary r Deocracy that was brought
back from the future where the lawyer and the lawyer
and the hero of the story are in a car
and the cops pull them over and they get out
(16:48):
to run, and then the cops just shoot the truck,
you know, with like ten thousand bullets, accidentally knocked down
an airplane out.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Of the sky.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
And even the lawyer who's from that society gets excited.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Now all the.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
They love the what we used to call them the
military bombs, guns and helicopter rids. They love the excitement
of seeing guys in tactical formation and checking to see
now because of MAGA has now militarized, they'd like to
see what you're wearing on your body armor, where are
your patches, where are your your med pouch and all
(17:26):
that stuff, And it's like, are you kidding me?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Are you kidding?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
This is what a lot of guy has devolved into.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of these guys who who
who clearly do not spend too much time in the
field with their five elevens and their and their and
their punish your t shirts underneath their body armor. I'm like,
come on, costplay motherfuckers.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Not a one of them has ever punish your comic books.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Obviously right, clearly these punisher would be shooting these guys,
all of them.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
I mean, it's just crazy.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
But you know, and I'm I'm sorry that we, you know,
for a national security podcast.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
I'm a son of Philadelphia, born, raised, steeped in It made.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
My decision to go into the military intelligence behind Independence
Hall when I was eighteen and next to Commodore Barry,
and I just find it absolutely infuriating that what I
have now is I have an America that is everything
that we were.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Warned about by the founding fathers. Everything, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
People always ask me who's your favorite founding father? For me,
I would all, you know, people go, oh, you must
be a Jefferson guy. You must be a Hamilton guy,
you must be a Franklin guy. I'm a George Washington guy.
Washington understood that his lieutenants, his subordinates, the Congress people
that he had to deal with, all had to be balanced,
(18:52):
and that balance was the most important factor and the
relinquishment of power in America.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
And that leads me to my technical.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Question that I ask almost every panelist that comes on here,
what the fuck?
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Yeah, well, what the fuck is actually a really pendent question,
as they say what there are a couple of things
we have to understand about about where Trump is mentally
right now. He understands he is a survivor. Let's be
real about Trump, about one big thing. He is a
fucking survivor. This guy will push and push and push
(19:30):
and push like any bully. He'll push until he can't
push anymore. He's gonna keep pushing on one big thing
in the in the next two years of He wants
to come back in twenty twenty eight, and I honestly,
if we have a Republican Congress, there's a really good
chance they'll just go yeah, sure, boss. And he wants
to run this country as an authoritarian.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
He's not.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
This is a guy who is not interested in the
small D of democracy or the small R of republicanism.
This is a guy who really is a fan of
authoritarianism and kleptocracy and on oligarchy and feshions. But I
hate all those terms in a lot of ways. But
you know, if the jack boot fits wear it, this
(20:14):
is a guy who does not believe in America.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yeah, well, I think that he has his own vision
of America. Sure, the vision that I learned about when
I was a child, when I read the Richy Rich
comic books.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
Right, you know, it's also a vision that you know,
back to the aforementioned founders, that the founders would go
get the fuck out of here. What are you talking about,
because as you mentioned Washington, Look, Washington believed that this
chief executive and he exercised, he lived this out to
the fullest. He believed the chief executive has always lived
(20:51):
with restraint and discipline and focus and to not ever
believe he was a king, because that was what we
had lost so many Americans fighting against. But when Washington
established the tradition of a peaceful departure from office, the
peaceful transfer of power, I mean, it's not like we
(21:11):
didn't learn that the son of a bitch would not
do that on January sixth, twenty twenty one. And so
what is what is anyone's belief structure that he's gonna
that he's gonna you know, if he has especially if
as a Republican majority, that the House doesn't just say nope,
we're certifying Donald Trump for a third term. Fuck you
you think the Supreme Court's gonna go against him?
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Well, you know, I God had that discussion with with
uh uh Dahlia Lithwick about three weeks ago, and she
just straight up said, this Supreme Court has made a
decision as a conservative body that the only way to
move the conservative agenda in the is to use the
(21:54):
sixty three and to make any decision that is necessary to.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Further Donald Trump in the Republican power.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
And that should a president Alexandria Cassio Cortes or you know,
or Bernie Sanders, whoever comes from, they're going.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
To rediscover all of the prerogatives of the executive are
the of the legislative and judicial branch. If there's a
democratic president.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
And she said, they will shamelessly reverse them, shamelessly. But
what that gives us is that gives us a situation
where now the Supreme Court is now a body that
should not be believed, that will have no credibility that one.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I mean, I call it the Red Court, Malcolm, I
call it the Red Court. Now it is there's nothing
about them at this point in our history that you
give an American confidence that they're going to rule based
on the law. They have become the parody that they
that they claim they were against. Forever it was always
we don't want activist judges. Now they are the ultimate
(22:57):
activist judges.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, well, thesolutely are. I think they've also become a
form of Donald Trump's star Chamber, sure, where they are
identifying and uh, you know, executing policy that Trump himself
and you know, may not even know that he needs
to have. But by giving him these this unrestrained, unrestricted power, Uh,
(23:20):
they are making themselves. I mean, they're also nullifying themselves
in a way to become a you know, a rubber
stamps they have.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
They have walked away from there. They have walked away
from their constitutional obligations to balance executive power and to
and to validate the constitutionality of both legislative and executive actions.
They're just now like whatever you got, whatever you need, boss,
(23:50):
what do you what do you what do you want?
Speaker 1 (23:52):
It?
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Really, it should trouble people more than it does.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Frankly, well, you know, we're we're really in the slow
boil of the situation here. And of course the people
that I see that are calling it out the loudest,
apart from the Lincoln Project and some others. Uh, Gavin Newsom,
who who has clearly decided to incorporate the word sjahad.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Into into Hit the context of.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
How the l Newsom Gavin Newsom has figured it out?
What has he figured out? He's figured out where the
fight really is. He figured out how to go in
and and and attack Trump in a way that triggers
I mean, this is always the Republican Party of today,
the Maga party, I call it. Their whole thing is,
(24:40):
oh fuck, you're feeling snowflake. But now that Newsom has
learned how to perfectly mock Donald Trump. Watch Fox News
in the last twenty four hours and every show they're
like crapping themselves. Dana Britos like, oh damn, he engaged
in this absolutely outrageous man. Yes more, Gavin, do more.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Childlike behavior is what I think. One of the phrasing was,
does it you know what did she say?
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Does not the presidential.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Of a governor? Oh my gosh, get the smelling.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I I would like to just go ahead and and
and re reacquaint all the Fox News hosts with the
fact that Donald Trump is literally a guy who has
people exit through the fucking gift shop at the White House.
He's a rampant criminal, He's a scumbag, he's a pedophile
enabler with his buddy Jeffrey Epstein and Gawayne Maxwell. I
(25:33):
don't want to hear shit about shit from these people
about the dignity of the White House. When Donald fucking
Trump a man who wears heels and makeup uh every day,
and a and a bizarre like lemur for wig hair
hat thing, I don't want to hear anything about the
dignity of the White House. Newsom's brilliance here, his social
media team's brilliance here is that they've they started to
(25:55):
dismantle the the the meme image of Trump that exists
in the minds of his own voters. By holding this
mirror up to Trump's own voters, They're like, oh, yeah,
I guess maybe Donald doesn't really stand on the tank
with no shirt on, holding an M sixty firing it
at dinosaurs. You know, none of it, None of the
stuff that they always loved about how liberals were triggered
(26:19):
by Trump's mean war. When they have it put back
to them, oh my god, it just blows their minds.
They just lose their shit. It's kind of magnificent.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Well, I mean, I have certainly enjoyed this last week,
certainly with all of the rock generated photos, like you know,
Newsom and just dressed as Captain America. And then they
did that great side by side photo of Trump in
high school and no no jd vance and news them
(26:54):
was a great, great looking baseball vote American.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
I mean, come on, that was a handsome motherfucker.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
And you know the problem is is that now this
puts us in a sort of a bind.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Joy Reid and I were discussing this about four weeks ago.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
About why Democrats won't stand up as a body is
because they believe they have to have a leader, and
that the only time that they have a leader is
once every four years as they work their way towards
candidates for the presidency. And they don't believe in leadership
or it might be staring them in a face, they
(27:33):
just don't glom onto it the way that Republicans do.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Newsom is clearly out ahead of this.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
He decided he's going to be a leader. And if
that means he has to be a dick, well guess
what Churchill was a dick? Yes, Roosevelt was a dick.
Big leaders are often dicks. Be a dick sometimes it
doesn't kill you. In fact, the idea, the idea that
we're gonna win with somebody who who comes in and
(28:01):
has the soft like we're gonna all get back and
sing Kumbaya. No, that's all people are gonna are gonna buy.
They're not gonna pay for that. They're not gonna buy that.
They don't want that. They want a leader who understands
we're in a war with evil people and we're gonna
use all the techniques. And you know, we're starting to
we we sort of mildly say this now, but we're
(28:22):
starting to see some Lincoln Project style democrats out there
who are swinging at the fences, who who don't give
a fuck, who are not worried about whether The New
York Times says, this outrageous and transgressive behavior is not dignified.
Who fucking cares. Look who we're up against. We're up
against a multi billion dollar enterprise what I call the
hate machine, and it is. It is everything from these
(28:48):
Silicon Valley authoritarian tech bros who don't believe in democracy,
to the MAGA media complex, which is ten times larger
than the rest of the media, combined to this culture
war shit that goes on forever and ever and ever,
all of it together is a very grim place for
America to find itself. And if we don't start fighting
(29:11):
against that gigantic hate machine in a way that penetrates
with voters, they will win.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yeah, well, they're going to win because they rely on
our apathy.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
You know, I have this bumper sticker on my car.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I covered my my Biden Harris sticker with this one
that said, you know, uh, you know what was it
by Plato that all it requires for evil men to
win is.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
The apathy of the voters paraphrasing and and it's as
simple as that.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
We have three Americas and I'm actually working now with
you know, I have a new Political Action Committee FAIFOX
pack right, FAFOA focus, but it stands for focused Action,
Focused Objectives because one of the things I've noticed about
these packs is they like to go out and they
like to collect money. They don't really do anything. You
(30:03):
guys do something. You put messages out. I wish they
could be broadcast on you know, cable television into the
red zones in order to you know, rile them up
even further, any.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Billionaire, any billionaires listening, give me a call, will be
up on the air and about a day if you had.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
We had that discussion last week. There are no such
thing as liberal billionaires. There are none. No one can
seem to give anyone a dime. Uh.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
The ones that they.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Do are waiting for the leader to shake up through,
you know, and emerge for the presidential and then they
will give money in the low millions. Uh.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
There is no Sheldon Adamson who's going.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
To shell out one hundred you know, million dollars at
one time and then buy his wife.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Yeah, there is really at this point no democratic Elon
Musk who spent there is a million two to fifty
million dollars last time, which was real money.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
M m yeah, and he got it all back and
like day and interest.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yeah. Hey, Look a lot of what we do today,
we a lot of our advertising is very digitally focused.
We've got very good data on who to talk to.
But you know, this idea that the other side is
going to leave any tool unused is just wrong. People
better be ready. This is going to be a wild
election in twenty twenty six. The role of AI in
(31:22):
this election, the role of disinformation will never be more
powerful than what you're about to see. And the shenanigans
that are going to happen in this in this election
cycle are will make anything we've had in the past
look mild by comparison.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Yeah, and this is my problem, because mild by comparison
can get pretty damn wild.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
It was it really struck.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Me that in the run up to the twenty twenty
election or twenty twenty four election, that every time there's
a movie that comes out that's done by a conservative
or somebody who I don't know, that the timing would
be clever. Twenty sixteen, it was that movie Benghazi, super
Soakers of Benghazi whatever, thirteen hours hours know a little
(32:11):
bit of something about Benghazianzazi during twenty eleven, in all
that period of time was actually on in an airport
going to Tripoli that day that the embassy was taken.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
I worked over there.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
But that movie changed a lot of needles in the
white guy brow sphere on the.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Meta narrative of Hillary Clinton herself.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Personally personally denied them drone coverage and all that shit.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Okay, the physics space and time actually have to be
adhered to all that intelligence stuff.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Not to mention the CIA staff.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
And that building were all combat veterans from Iraq, Afghanistan.
Then the paramilitary force showed up. They made it look
like that with some sort of accident. But prior to
twenty twenty four was the movie Civil War.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
And I'm telling you I'm a gun collector, I'm a
long range shooter. I hang out, you know, in these
websites where these guys are at, and there's an entire
body of fat, beer drinking, never done nothing, never see
team the government, motherfuckers, Meal Team six right, gravy seals,
(33:28):
every one of them. Really led me to actually, these
people led me to write my last book. They want
to kill Americans right that there were Americans right now
who are hot and heavy, to dress like Ice is
doing right now, the SWAT teams, to get out there
and to become, as I said on Bill Maher famously
(33:50):
self deputized. If Donald Trump wins that they will be
his unofficial maybe even deputized in forcers. If this moves
to bigger cities and we see.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Resistance, armed resistance, because.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
We're just I believe we're just one gun battle away
from the You know, the South and the West screaming
about we've got to protect ourselves from the brown people
who have guns and somebody going out there and some
militia doing a massacre.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
But you can see right now you've got these governors
who are pushing National Guard troops to d C suddenly
all over the South, which, by the way, Mississippi, Louisiana, Florida,
Georgia all have vastly higher crime rates per capita than
DC does, not any question. But they're sending their guys there,
and and a lot of people are now sort of
(34:46):
fetishizing this whole bullshit, thinking, oh, well, you know, I
could be an Ice Sky too. I could get the bonus.
I could go kick down doors. You know, I could
be one of these bad asses, you know, riding around
in DC or riding around, you know, in LA, and
I could I could put those people in their place.
And it's it's fucked up, it's sick, it's stupid. But
(35:09):
but your book was right, there is a cultural thing,
and and and guys like you in particular have seen
this up close radicalization. There's not a vast sea of
difference between that weirdo maga gun guy on on you know,
(35:30):
ar fifteen dot com or whatever the fuck now MARF
comes a little different. There's some more crazy parts of that.
And and and somebody who was brought into ISIS or
al Qaeda, they are they read these sacred texts, they
watch these videos, they get they get told over and
over again. Maybe you'll die, but you'll be remembered as
(35:50):
the hero who saved your people. Right and that ship,
that shit should scare Americans tremendously because Americans aren't supposed
to live in that in that world.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
The problem is, I think they're bemused right now. And
I think I you know, I said this the other day.
I can't remember which platform it was. I'm disgusted with
the news media that are not shouting as loud as
you and I right now about the loss of American rights,
American citizens being arrested, these takedowns in the streets. We
(36:23):
have a geheim stattz pullet side gestopore literally on the
streets of America.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
If no badges, no name tags, no warrants shown, nothing.
But and by the way, anybody can go on fucking
Amazon right now and by velcrow patches to put on
your plate carrier that say ICE or FBI or Border Patrol,
and that's right. These guys have no accountability at all.
(36:52):
And the excuse, oh, they're being dogs.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Fuck off, no, fuck off, fuck and we need to
recalibrate that. I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan
of law and order. I trained hundreds and hundreds of
cops encounter terrorism, hundreds multiple states where I've trained these guys,
and they were all about doing it by procedure, that
saw themselves as the arbiter of you know, good versus evil.
(37:17):
And now they have been slow roasted into believing that, hey,
maybe we you know, maybe Pinochet was right taking people
over the Pacific Ocean and dumping them out of aircraft.
Maybe the Argentinian junta were right in destroying the Pactos.
Maybe we should be the ton Tom mccoot of white
men in the United States. This is going I'm gonna
(37:42):
quote one of my favorite movies, right, Tom Clancy's for
Red October.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
This is gonna control.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
And we don't seem to have anyone because I'm sorry
to say it, the median rational man in America was
the educated government serviced white men, right, But those men
in the past were steeped in World War Two and
(38:12):
the in the in the in the war against communism,
there was a a patriotic intellectual basis behind it to
where you would never get somebody reading the National Review
talking about, well, maybe we should just go over and
become part of maos China or side ourselves with you know,
Bresnev's communism. The way that it's happening now, and it's
(38:36):
not ignorance.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
They're educated.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
White men are now viewing themselves as part of the
white male tribe and that Trump is their avatar of greatness.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
It's a ridiculous avatar. And again, this is a guy
who has never spent five minutes outside that wasn't on
a golf course. This is never a guy who has
who has fired a gun. This is never a guy
who has suffered any kind of moment that wasn't gonna
be you know, taken care of by daddy or by
lawyers in his whole life. And the irony is you
(39:12):
have people who who entered service in law enforcement a
lot of times with good intentions and now they are
serving someone who is who a doesn't give a fuck
about them, and it'd be is evil. I mean that
that to me is. We can't under underscore or undercount
the fact that Trump is a bad human being. He's
(39:34):
he's not a not a good guy. He's not a
he's not a person you could you should role model after.
He's not a person you should want your kids to
to emulate. Let's put it that way.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I mean, he's the single most documented liar in American history,
and those he thought that thirty three thousand, eight years ago.
I mean, the man has probably pushed one hundred thousand lives,
you know, and he's.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
A pathological liary. It just happens.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
It's yeah, right, Nothing about Donald Trump's lying is is deliberate.
It's all just a reflex action. He'll lie just because
just because telling the truth isn't isn't like easy. He
lies because it's easy to lie.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
You know.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Well, that gives me a quick hot moment to transition
to our last question about the the I don't even
want to use the word summit.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
I guess the annual fitness evaluation, that's right.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
But my favorite part of that idiocy and disgrace that
I saw was when Trump was on the was on
the red carpet, and Putin was coming down. Trump started
clapping like a train seal. But I realized just as
I'm asking the question, the last place that I saw
(40:57):
that was the video of him standing next to Jeffrey
Epstein clapping when the dancers were there, And it's like.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
Oh my god, what is that?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Beyond good romance, holy ship, there's an ad.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
I get paid in double express a Starbucks card.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
But it's it's it's a it was a disgrace. But
I think within him these this is his this is
his guys. Yeah, poot comic booty booth. And you know
he so admires well.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
First off, he clearly admires the palace in Leningrad that
he had right and the right.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Because he's turned the Oval office into like Timu Liberachi
Bukacki on the walls whatever.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
I was gonna say, Liberachi put but Bys maybe better
just yes, crazy.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
He he he loved the trappings of royalty. He's always
loved the royal the royalty angle of anything he loves.
And he looks at Putin as the king of Russia.
He doesn't say he's the jailer of Russia. He's the
oppressor of Russia, the dictator of Russia. He thinks he's
the king, and Trump would love to see a world divided.
(42:20):
And this this, I won't say this is a completely
articulated thing in Trump's mind, but there are people around
him who like this. Uh. They want to see a
world where Putin controls Europe and Trump controls the Americas
and Canada, and she controls China. They think the world
should be divided up into three and and and and
that way, you know, Trump can maximize the profit center
(42:44):
that he has developed here in America, Putin can do
his thing. They hate Europe. You know, Africa becomes a
jump ball, and the Chinese the Russians fight it out there,
and and and and as you know, this is a
This is a world where Russia is a third rate
military power with a first rate propaganda service and a
(43:05):
first rate intelligence service. You know, China is both bigger
and smaller than it seems as a threat. But the
idea that America would send what would would would invite
a dictator to our soil, a war criminal to our soil,
force American troops on their hands and knees to roll
(43:26):
out a red carpet, and that Trump would act like
he's meeting his long lost high school girlfriend, it's disgusting, man,
it's it's fucking repulsive.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Or Jeffrey Epstein goor.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Jeffrey Epstein at a party.
Speaker 4 (43:42):
I thought she was sixteen.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
I did, I swear, you know I did.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
This analysis when I wrote by the way, that tripolar
world I wrote a whole book about called the.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
Plot to Destroy Democracy, and that.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Trump really wanted to be to break that world depart
Alexander Dugan's philosophy of Neo Eurasianism, Russia taking Europe, the
United States taking the Western hemisphere, and that Trump really
wanted to be part of what I call the Axis
of Autocrats yep. And he wants Hungary, Egypt, Israel under
(44:19):
net and Yahoo. These people align themselves around money that
is so high that it's above governments but beyond the
ola garky, the global garky is what I called it.
And the only time they meet is that parties are
on their mega one hundred million dollar mega yachts.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Right. And look again, I'm going to even seed this
point for one second, although it galls me to do it.
Speaker 3 (44:47):
Oh jeez.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
There are people who support Donald Trump who believe they
are patriotic Americans, who believe that because of all the
propaganda they've consumed over twenty five thirty years of Fox
that it's communism or Trump mm hmm. But everything that
they projected on what the communists wanted to do Trump does.
(45:11):
Using the secret police to oppress people. That's Trump taking
over to control a private enterprise. That's Trump governing above
the rule of law. That's Trump. None of the things
that Trump does dismays them. They don't get mad about it.
They're like, oh, okay, well, it's just Trump and Trump.
(45:32):
But the structure they're building with him is authoritarianism. It
is and it is in fact increasingly fucking com state
state communism because Trump's like, I want to own and tell,
and I want to own this company, and the America
should tell TikTok, we should own TikTok. All these things
they add up, Malcolm to a very fucked up, not
(45:54):
American version of the presidency, not American version of of
of what people claim to want and should want.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Okay, I've got to get a coffee into me right now,
because that's the only thing that's gonna calm me down
is a triple expresso. It just gets more and more depressing. Well,
Rick Wilson, Thank you for coming, and we.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Will keep swinging the sword suck. All right, brother, good
talking to you man. We'll see you soon.
Speaker 3 (46:26):
All right, take care? What did I tell you this?
Speaker 1 (46:33):
Sitting down with Rick Wilson is like sitting down with
a case of dynamite and twenty four back of Budweiser. Right,
You just feel like you're gonna have to put a
match to those things and throw them.
Speaker 3 (46:46):
Into the water and see how many fish come up.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
I mean, I always go into these podcasts with guests
like Rick and I feel like, oh, this is going
to be not only interesting, we will have a way
of making this descent roller coaster like descent into Hell
and the end of democracy a little more amusing. But
(47:10):
more importantly, I learn a lot more than even the
silly questions that I ask. And I had a whole
series of questions. This was supposed to have been all
about Trump and putin far less important than the damage
that's being done not only to our national security but
to the foundations and structures of American democracy itself. We
(47:32):
have a city that is being occupied by US forces.
That is the only way to describe it. We have
an American gestapo force that is rising up, and sometimes
you got to attack that like Gavin Newsom's doing with humor,
or sometimes you got to frame it the right way,
the way the Lincoln Project and guys who are shouty
(47:55):
like Rick Wilson do it with that hoof Thank you
for coming to another episode of Black Man's Spy. You
can listen to black Man's Spy on Apple, Stitcher, your
other fine podcast locations. I am principally found at Malcolm
Nance dot on now Malcolm Nance at substack dot com,
(48:20):
sorry about that, or Malcolm Nance dot bsky dot com
at blue Sky at.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
Malcolm Nance on Twitter.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
I'm on Facebook somewhere and YouTube the black Man Spy podcast.
Listen to it, subscribe to it. It doesn't cost anything
to describe to all these subscribe to all of these podcasts.
But my long format deep national security analysis is done
on substack.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
Please become a subscriber on substack.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
And with that, I'm gonna go get that Triple Express
though I was talking about, because right now I'm so
stoked a Triple Express. So we'll bring me down, like
I saidative, So I will see you next week on
the beach.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
H m hm
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