Is America a Police State? Malcolm Nance asks Dahlia Lithwick if America is finished

Malcolm Nance engages in a profound discussion with legal expert Dahlia Lithwick about the current state of American democracy and the judiciary. They explore the implications of recent Supreme Court decisions, the erosion of trust in government institutions, and the rise of authoritarianism in the United States. This candid conversation is both alarming and enlightening, leaving listeners with a mix of fear, despair, and a glimmer of hope for the future of democracy.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The National Guard in California bringing in the Marines. Now
we have just randos on the streets saying I'm an
ice agent, right, or I'm a police officer and shooting
lawmakers in Minnesota. So the problem with the sort of
Kyle Rittenhouse theory of American heroism, which is that every
single guy who has seven guns and thinks sees the

(00:21):
hero in his own movie keeps getting exculpated and exonerated.
And we are now living in a world in which
nobody trusts institutions.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Right.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
Nobody trusts the police, nobody trusts the military, nobody trusts
the Justice Department. Again, the US Supreme Court has a huge,
huge role to play in fostering mistrust of government institutions.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
This is black Man Spy.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Welcome to this week's edition of Black Man Spy. I
am not going to have a long intro here because
our guest today, Dalia Lithwick, will speak for herself. I
swear to God, you will do three things in this episode.
You will one become terrified, two you will become despondent,

(01:19):
and three you will become hopeful.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
At towards the end of the podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:25):
It is an incredible discussion I found myself. It's like
watching Hamilton or any Broadway play. You laughed, you cried,
you felt uplifted, and that's the way that it should be.
So without any ado, let's speak to Dalia Lithwick. My
guest today is Daliah Lithwick. She's a regular contributor analyst

(01:47):
at MSNBC, senior editor at Slate magazine, and in the
capacity she's been writing her Supreme Court dispatches and jurist
Buden's column since nineteen ninety nine.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
I'm reading, obviously.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
She is host of Amicus, Slate's Award Women bi weekly
podcast about law and Supreme Court, which is where I
hear her. And she is the author of the New
York Times bestseller Lady Justice, Women, The Law and the
Battle to Save America. Dally Lithwick, Welcome to black Man's Spy.
I am jealous that you are reporting to us from

(02:20):
the Middle East in Israel, where I really could use
a Turkish coffee and a big hunk of Buckalo, except.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
That I'm seven hours ahead of you, so I could
really use a nap. But yes, and it's just a
treat to be with you, Malcolm. You know I'm a
huge admirer, and it's I mean, I know nothing about
this conversation is going to be fun. But there's no
one I would rather be deeply sad with than you.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
Well wait for its sister.

Speaker 3 (02:51):
You know I'm gonna I warned everyone in the introduction
here that this is easily going to be the single
most serious version of black Man's we've had. Usually this
is a very fun podcast. I tend to treat people
the way that we talk and act inside our secure

(03:11):
cipher lock doors of our skifts are sensitive compartment and
information facilities. And in case you wonder, it is not
like the movies. It is just a raucous, laughing good
time about the ill fates of our enemies. And you know,
I did a podcast with Michael, you know, Michael Steele
two weeks ago where we laughed at the demise of

(03:32):
the American experiment for over an hour and then hung
up and both cried and started drinking. But I want
to be very serious about this today because I have
seven serious questions for you and some commentary that we'll
go in there too. But you are a you know,
an expert in the law. You seem to know something

(03:57):
about what's going on. Within the parameters of the Constitution
of the United States. And with that, I want to
ask my first question. And I really sat down and
thought about these questions, and I want to caveat this.
Every one of these questions hurts me personally to my heart.

(04:18):
I'm a son of Philadelphia. I was born in a
naval hospital to a family everybody knows this Shpiel, my
son's of Philadelphia Rant. My family served one hundred and
fifty seven NonStop years in the Armed Forces, Army and Navy.
And we take the American experiment very seriously. I made

(04:39):
my decision to go into the intelligence community behind Independence
Hall in Washington Square, right across the street where George
Washington has labeled above the place which was the tomb
of the first Unknown Soldier. You know, freedom is a
light for which many men have died in dark. And

(05:02):
now I'm forced to ask this question. Is America still
a republic? And is the American experiment finished?

Speaker 1 (05:17):
Okay, so we're starting with the softballs, Malcolm, the just
the lob right down the center. Look, there's a structural
answer to that, you know, there's a formalist answer, and
then there's a little bit of a hopium answer. The
structural answer is as depressing as you expect, which is,

(05:40):
you know, we have a system that rests entirely on
the proposition that three branches will robustly protect their own
prerogatives and check one another. And we are living in
a moment, and I think in a really compressed amount
of time, where we we have a Congress that is

(06:03):
I mean, I know we're going to talk about Congress later.
It's Supine is generous, right, Supine assumes that it's alive
and just laying down. This is like a whole another like,
this is an institution that is dead. And in ways
that I think are really frightening, we're seeing the chilling

(06:25):
effect of kind of a mob bus mentality where people
are afraid to do the right thing for I think
some legitimate reasons. So one of the three branches is
out of the picture and the other branch and this
is where it gets really tricky. The Supreme Court created
an imperial Presidency a year ago, right a year ago

(06:47):
this week with the immunity decision, And this same court
has now created an Imperial Supreme Court. And so we
don't only have a lack of checks, we actually have
the Supreme Court working in tandem with the President to
go after district courts, to go after government agencies, to

(07:11):
go after right enemies of the state. And so I
don't know how to explain it, but it's not even
as though the two remaining legs of the three legged
stool are working against each other. They're working in lock step,
and in I think a really dispiriting way. They are
working in lops, in locks step to do away with

(07:33):
the only other check we have, which is the federal
district courts. And so this is a really frightening moment
because the only entity that has checked this president in
the five months plus since he was inaugurated have been
the trial courts. And we have now seen a court happy,
the majority, the six' to Three roberts majority on The,

(07:54):
court happy to align itself against district, courts against Other
article three. Courts and that's a shocking development and it
is hard to see how you come back from.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
That, okay hold that. Bus this is you. KNOW i
try to explain to.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
People that this podcast is really steeped in trying to
explain people using the processes of THE us intelligence, community
and one of the things that everybody knows is That
i'm a big believer in knowing that the way we process,
things we already know, who, what, when, where and. How

(08:35):
we don't ever care about. That the bottom line of
ALL us intelligence and now this discussion about jurisprudence is
why why is.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
The Supreme court doing? This are?

Speaker 3 (08:48):
They, okay let me just put this out there BECAUSE
i wanted to touch on The Supreme court, later you,
know BECAUSE i have a very pointed question that doesn't affect.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
This it comes back.

Speaker 3 (08:58):
Later why would they seek to neuter the entirety of
the judicial brands except for? Themselves and that leads me
to question number, six Which i'll, ask, now are are
they viewing themselves as a star, chamber as judge jury

(09:23):
executioners and Allowing trump to be the axemen for everything
that's going on?

Speaker 1 (09:31):
HERE i, mean it's it's such a great sort of
ontological question BECAUSE i don't know if they think they're
the star chamber And trump is the ax, men or
If trump is the star chamber and they are the ax. Men,
like it's very unclear to me who is the decider
in this. Situation AND i think that one of the

(09:53):
things that's really worrying, again and we can maybe unpack
that birth rate citizenship case for or quick second to get.
There but folks who for folks who haven't followed all the.
Details the, case the big blockbuster case of the term
that came down on the last day of the, term
wasn't about first right, citizenship which is what the case

(10:16):
was supposed to be. About it was about whether federal
trial courts or district courts can put into effect what
is called a nationwide injunction or a universal. Injunction and
we need to understand these injunctions go back, many many.
Years and When biden was enjoined By Matthew Kes meerrick

(10:36):
right in the myth of christone, case we hated. Them
and When trump won was enjoined in the travel ban,
cases we love.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
Them.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
Right so let's be very, clear this is a bipartisan.
Problem it is a way of Blocking one judge can
block nationwide presidential. Policy and you could have had a
merits conversation about. That the court chose not to have.
It The court, said, no judges cannot do. That and
AS i said, before it wasn't just in the birthright citizens,

(11:06):
shipcase and we had nationwide. Injunctions two dozen other, cases INCLUDING,
usaid including, impoundment including all sorts of lawless withholding of
funds from hospitals and. Schools single judges have enjoined a,
toxic Illegal trump. Policy all of those things now are
on the chopping. Block so this has been the only

(11:27):
thing that has held this president at bay and it's.
Gone and so the court did it with the stroke
of a. Pen and what's really, worrying and this last
Thing i'll, say just to explain the, case is that
this same, court with these same nine, justices had the
opportunity to do the same thing in The biden administration
when he came to The court and, said, hey one
judge shouldn't be able to stop an entire, policy, right

(11:49):
this is the student debt forgiveness. Plan and the court didn't.
Care court was, Like, eh not a. Problem suddenly five
months later it's a. Problem, Right so we have to
kind of be mindful of why the court shows this
vehicle to do it at this.

Speaker 3 (12:04):
Moment, well what you just told on what you're describing
to me as a lay, person and this is going
to get into myself and my peers in our careers
as loyal people within the federal government who are doing
things which are very. Shady are we talking about A

(12:27):
Supreme court here that is no longer an independent.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
Judicial branch but is now a.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
Component of The republican political, machine and they don't care
what law is except for what law they And trump.

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Decide it certainly feels like if the exact Six republicans
on this, court all of whom were appointed By, republicans
had an opportunity to make this same decision When president
and ran to the court and said let's do away
with universal, injunctions and they went e not. Interested and

(13:06):
here we are In, july and suddenly this has to
be curbed right, now it's hard to see this as
anything but vindication Of republican. Policies now under your, Question,
MALCOLM i think there's a really tricky, question which is
and we had this conversation last year when the court
handed down by the same march in the presidential immunity

(13:30):
case right where they, said, oh you, Know trump can
in no way be held responsible for The january sixth,
insurrection and then had this whole like crazy choose your own,
ending you, know maze of official acts and unofficial acts
and outer perimeters and inner. Perimeters the theory of that
case was maybe it's not that the supermajority in The

(13:51):
robert six is in love With Donald. Trump maybe they're
in love with executive. Power and this was just a
way to sort of Effectuate John. Robert it's like nineteen
eighties fever dreams about what's, called you, know a unitary
executive the, broadest most maximalist vision of executive, power and
that was the charitable way.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
And it just happened to coincide With Donald.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
Trump, Correct so this is too. Twinkydink right, Now we've
got two maximalist executive power theories that only are offered
To Donald. Trump and so you're.

Speaker 3 (14:26):
Right, yeah in this, podcast everybody Knows Malcolm nance is
known for one thing and one thing, only a thing
that we called The nance's. Law, right the nances are
in full Terms nance's dictum of intelligence, kismet all, right
and that is. Coincidence takes a lot of. Planning And

(14:48):
i'm finding. This i'm the podcasters can't hear it or see.
It i'm stunned at what you just.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
Said i'll add this to your coincidence lest one thinks
this is just the last two years at The Supreme. Court,
right this Is Citizens united right the decision to do
away with campaign finance. Reform this Is Shelby county, right
eviscerating the beating heart of The Voting Rights. Act this

(15:17):
is not the last two. Cases this is an entire.
Infrastructure and this Is mitch McConnell stealing a seat right
That Barack obama wanted to Put Merrick garland on the,
court holding that seat for almost a year under some
theory that you, know presidents in their last term can't
seat A Supreme court. Justice never, happened but, okay and

(15:38):
then using that same rule to Smash Amy Cony barrett
onto The court after voting had already started in the
president dental.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
Election.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
Right so none of these things are. Coincidences this is
a sort Of Koch, Brothers Federalist, Society Heritage foundation fueled
multi decade effort to take over The Supreme court and
to hand it to The Republican. Party this is not.
Coincidence this was the. Plan.

Speaker 3 (16:08):
Right so there's a strategic operating system that has been
put into. Place it is a multi, generational multi decade
and so what you're saying is is that there is
a group Of americans who have implemented a, conservative arguably
white supremacist mechanism to ensure that The american democracy would

(16:32):
not function, anymore and that we get to a point
where an authoritarian that they assist who will come into,
power who they see In Donald, trump is going to
execute all of their future, plans including passing the greatest
transfer of wealth in the history of The United.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
States i'm just going to be quite frank with.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
You If i've done intelligence analysis and operations against country
that have operated like, this you, Know Saddam hussein's you
Know Saddam Hussein's, iraq Morel Maar Kadafi's, libya at this,
point we would be discussing With State department about what
kind of air strikes we should be doing in order

(17:14):
to restore the democracy that existed, there or what clandestine
operations should be carried, out or who should be. Funded
but what you're technically answering my first question is The
american experiment? Over and you're doing it in a very qualified,
yes OR i should say an analytical, yes as opposed

(17:37):
to A malcolm. Nance holy, shit The american experiment is,
over you, know screaming around with my hair on, FIRE
i mean socil.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
Lawyer, no, no BECAUSE i want to give you my
hopium answer IF i, may WHICH i promised up. Front
my hopium answer, is and you know this better than, Anyone.
Malcolm you think about, This you know multi. Dimensionally what
we are seeing in The United states now is not.
New this is The Orbon. Playbook we have seen this In,

(18:09):
hungary we have seen this In, poland we have seen
this in authoritarian autocratic moves around the. World and the
degree to, which by the, way the playbook isn't just the.
Playbook it's actually like handed right To Donald trump by
some of the architects of The Orbon, playbook, Right so
this is not again a. Coincidence and when we see

(18:31):
it happen in other, countries we're, like oh my, god
as you, said this is completely. Backward this could never happen.
Here one of the problems That americans are having right
now is that The american exceptionalist view of the world
is so acute that we have an absolute fantasy that
it can't happen In. America and it can't happen In

(18:53):
america because we have The, constitution and we have checks and,
balances and we have The, court, Right so we have
convinced ourselves that every other country that undergoes authoritarian takeover
like isn't really a. Democracy and, somehow you, know this
is the most perfected democracy in the. World so that's
the first. Answer and you can look at poland you

(19:15):
can look at you, know people on the streets in
authoritarian countries around the, world and you can see that
there is a playbook for clawing it, back. Right and
that's my hopium, answer my hopium. Answer and this is
actually maybe the most important THING i want to, say
because people right, now particularly in a couple of weeks
like we've had on the emergency docket at the court
and everything sucks and everyone's like nothing can be, done

(19:36):
my hands are, Tied i'm just. Screwed and my answer is,
no the court works for. You and we have to
have a meaningful conversation about structural. Reform this is not
a conversation about in twenty twenty, eight you know we'll
win the next. Election that's too. Late we would have
to talk about filibuster reform and jerrymandering and you, know

(19:57):
adding to the court and stripping juristic and all the
things we're afraid to talk about because why we're the
most perfected democracy in the, world and so we have
to shake. Free it's like the cure is the thing
that's poisoning. Us the cure is stop thinking it's, perfect
and stop thinking that you're going to fall in love

(20:18):
with this candidate or that. Candidate these are structural problems
that go back Pre Jim, crow pre, reconstruction to the
founding that created an imperfect democracy that was never. Perfected
and we have to fix a Maliportion senate and we
have to fix.

Speaker 3 (20:37):
Yah see here's my problem with, this you, know because
that isn't the greatest, hope greatest hopium you.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
Know right, Now i'm for those of you who are
listening on a.

Speaker 3 (20:47):
Podcast i'm pounding double espressos down so THAT i can
actually chill out and calm, down because the More dalia,
speaks the more PANICKED i.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
Get so and double espresso is my soothing. Thing And
i'm won my third double.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
Expresso that being, Said yes for per beverage for badick
that being, Said AND i hear you what you're, Saying
but what you're talking about is a root and branch
destructuralization of a system which has worked imperfectly for two
hundred and forty nine, years and we're coming to two

(21:26):
fifty and it is not the.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
Same, look you.

Speaker 3 (21:30):
Know i'm not the Greatest i'm not the greatest scholar
in the, world BUT i have studied quite a bit
of this in other, countries because AGAIN i usually end
up recommending we bomb those countries because they are not
adhering to the strictures of human rights and.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
Democracy in just one hundred and twenty, Days.

Speaker 3 (21:48):
America in the first week removed all reference to human
rights from The State. Department you, KNOW i, mean it's
utterly amazing that we know longer review ourselves or will
view the world as a nation that views human rights
as a core.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
Function of a functioning.

Speaker 3 (22:10):
Democracy principally, because as you, said this strategic, plan this
overlay that has been done by you, know you, know
technically evil White bond, villains and it is a plan
to turn The United states into an authoritarian state that

(22:31):
by the, WAY i wrote a book about, this just
in case you might have missed it called The plot
To Destroy, democracy and the subtitle was How putin and
his cyberspies are Undermining america and dismantling The. West and
one of the things THAT i, learned quite shockingly is
that virtually every, conservative you, know anti, immigrant Anti muslim

(22:57):
political group In europe was directly funded By Russia's United.
Russia putin's political, Party Mariem lepen was handed thirty seven
million euros to win the. Election and further to your
discussion of this being a, plot, right you, know because

(23:18):
the BOOK i wrote About trump six weeks before the
election was called The plot To Hack, america in which
The putin and And trump's team worked, symbiotically not hand in,
hand but symbiotically to hack the mindset of The american.
Voter and we could argue That america is the most
propagandized nation on the earth now that we are The Soviet,

(23:40):
union that we have our Own pravda which is called
Truth social And Fox, news which it would have Been Task,
ivestia even though they still exist out, there but That
america itself has moved into such a position that the propaganda.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
WORKS i describe what.

Speaker 3 (24:00):
You're talking About america using this, playbook not just Of.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
ORBON i refer To.

Speaker 3 (24:08):
Hungary, Turkey, Egypt, israel believe it or, Not, Russia, China
argentina With malay all of this as an axis of,
autocracies an axis of, autocrats and that they see each

(24:28):
other as being self, enriching and if they were to work,
symbiotically if they were to work together to create a
different world, order one in which the new world order
actually perpetuated itself on the moment the first soldier set
foot In normandy in nineteen forty, four where we were

(24:50):
taking down the axis order the, world you, know the
world domination team Of, Italy, Japan. Germany at least that's
how we to view it in the in the hagiography of.
It but now those people have seen how that works
and that the world really doesn't work on fascist authoritarianism and.

(25:11):
Dictatorship they can get to that. Later they believe the
world works on money and, oligarchy and that the oligarchs
themselves you, know well maybe not In, russia Because russia
is still technically An East german, modeled you, know old
authoritarian state run by a. Dictator but they also saw

(25:35):
that the people in The, west as that was set
in the OLD kgb, playbook it is the rich that
are the most vulnerable to being, changed to seeing their
worldview as, equal and that would give us this axis
of autocrats, money seeing money and knowing money will assist. Money,

(25:57):
now that was the promise of my book at that,
time and they used all resources, propaganda, intelligence, diplomatic, military
and economic to reach this. Goal my problem IS i
See trump who has embraced the axis of autograph. Ethos
every one of these countries i've, named all, Right israel less,

(26:21):
so but every one of these Countries i've named have openly, said,
yes this is. Us you, know we're making bukuu darjaent,
Right we're gonna make a lot of. Money And, trump
because of the structures that you talked, about has to
play within.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
The the outlines.

Speaker 3 (26:40):
Of what he has so that he won snatched, patriotism
snatched a, flag and is creating WHAT i call a constitutional,
dictatorship which is the constitution, exists but it's only going
to get applied to people that support, him and everyone

(27:02):
else is going to get their rights.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
Snatched so let ME i want to react to two,
things one very, quickly which, is you're exactly. Right we
keep talking about this as a democracy, problem, right a
problem with the, Republic and you're exactly. Right it is
not a democracy. Problem it's an information infrastructure, problem and
it's a money. Problem AND i want to be very
clear that one of the biggest contributors to. That it's

(27:26):
WHY i started With Citizens, United, right is THE Us Supreme,
court who in twenty ten laid the groundwork for us
to Get Elon muskin dooze. Today, right a guy who
bought the presidency and bought himself a whole bunch of sweet. Deals,
Right so let's be very clear, again this didn't come
out of. Nowhere this is a gift from The Supreme
court to you and. Me the second, thing and this

(27:48):
is the most important RESPONSE i have to everything you,
said WHICH i don't disagree. WITH i think like we're
not disagreeing on. Facts we're disagreeing on tone and tenor
and maybe a tiny bit on. Hope but the one
thing THAT i want to, say and this is so,
important it's the very last point you. Made Ernst, frankel
no one's ever heard of the Guy Aziz huck who

(28:09):
is a law professor At university Of, chicago has an
absolutely superb piece in The atlantic In march where he
unearths this Forgotten jewish lawyer who Fled Nazi, germany who
wrote a book about the dual, state and what is
the dual. State the dual state perfectly encapsulates why everything

(28:31):
you said is. Happening frankel's experience was as he Watched
Nazi germany begin to encroach on the. Law he was
an attorney with a labor, attorney so they let him keep.
Working and what he said, was it doesn't happen, overnight
the takeover of the. Law what happens is most, people

(28:53):
for most of the time In Nazi, germany contract rights,
worked property rights. Work wanted to get a, Divorce you
pay your parking. Ticket the bulk of the law as
applied to the bulk of people ticked on every. Day
people had an ordinary experience of the. Law that's what
he calls the normative. State there's this other layer that he,

(29:16):
calls this Is frankel the prerogative, state which is when
you start plucking people out of the system and, saying
but the law doesn't apply to, you doesn't apply to. You,
oh and by the, way the law doesn't apply to the.
Leadership we are living in an exact, replica says is
he's hook of the dual. State and by the, way
this is the beating heart of. Justice Katanji Brown jackson's

(29:38):
like fire. Descent in The kasa, case she calls it
a law free zone as applied To Donald trump and
has applied to the vulnerable poor brown migrants that he
has plucked out from a system of, laws and he
is immune and they are not given the benefit of the.
Law so it's not that law is equal for all.

(30:00):
People as you, say The Donald trump is above the
law and most of these vulnerable people are below the.

Speaker 3 (30:07):
Law.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
Right the problem with the dual state is that for Most,
americans they pay their parking, tickets their divorce goes through
their property, rights and so it's a sort OF i
think of it as a sort of structural analysis of
the frogs in the. Pot, problem right, is you're in
the pot and law works for. You nobody's plucking the
average guy off the street and sending him To El.

(30:29):
Salvador nobody's taking the average you, know, WELL i know it's.
Starting but until the country realizes we are all out
of the normative state and in the prerogative, state and
That Donald trump is going to do what he wants
and other people are at his whim and the law
is not treating us, equally then that's the. Trick AND

(30:52):
i think that the Reason Ernest frankel just speaks to,
me and the Reason Justice jackson's descent speaks to me
is it encapsulates the thing you just, Said, malcolm which
is we think we are functioning in a lawful system
and we're. Not but we can't see it around us
unless we're hanging out in the courtroom watching people get. Deported.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
Right, well it's funny you should mention, This Ernest.

Speaker 3 (31:15):
Frankel AND i haven't read his, Book The Dual, state
BUT i do know something about what you're speaking. About
and in, FACT i have an entire list of notes
here that see The labrador of democracy is himself lending
is giving commentary to. This six years AGO i was

(31:37):
invited To, auschwitz my second visit To. AUSCHWITZ i don't
know if you know my. BACKGROUND i grew up In.
PHILADELPHIA i grew up in a Young catholic kid in
An Orthodox jewish neighborhood Of. Winfield the first foreign LANGUAGE
i ever heard and learned Was. Yiddish the first foreign
CODE i ever, BROKE i literally broke a code at h,

(31:59):
two was A hebrew newspaper WHICH i decoded using a
Basic hebrew alphabet, book AND i learned a valuable lesson
is that all codes decrypt into another, language they don't
decrypt Into.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
English BUT i learned.

Speaker 3 (32:19):
Quite a bit from my, neighbors my, friends and one
of the things my, father who was A World War
two veteran who joined The navy at age fifteen and
nineteen forty, four who was an insane avaricious, reader because
when you're fighting the war in The, pacific you have

(32:39):
two weeks between going to, battles so you read a
lot of. Books and one of the things that he
did was when THE tv Show The world At, war
which was a history Of World WAR, ii came, on
he sat my little black ass down and he made
sure THAT i sat with him and watched the segment

(33:01):
on The Final, solution which was the entire history leading up,
to of, course the liberation of concentration, chems but how
these decisions were, made and most of the people who
spoke on that, show which was done in the late
nineteen sixties early nineteen, seventies my dad was just wanted

(33:22):
to make a very very.

Speaker 2 (33:24):
Specific impression on. Me AND i was one of five,
brothers so he must have done this to the. Rest
but he.

Speaker 3 (33:29):
Must have figured out THAT i was learning these, languages you,
know and learning About, judaism and he wanted to smack
me in the face with. It so he made me
watch the pictures of people being shot in the head
pits filled with, bodies you, know the famous photo of
the nude woman who's walking up onto a plank holding
or baby about to be shot by A nazi. Soldier

(33:53):
and he just when it was all, over AND i was.
Mortified is the only way to learn? IT i, mean
he grilled that into. Me he, said what do we understand?
Here AND i, said these people are evil and he
said that's. It that's the lesson these. People there are
people who were out there. Now then, again this is
a guy who Thought edie amme was great because he

(34:15):
was sticking it in the thumb of the white.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
Man.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
RIGHT i have an entire page of some of the
things THAT i learned WHEN i was not At, auschwitz
but WHEN i learned as a, child and then WHEN
i started studying the history Of Nazi. Germany i'm an
amateur scholar Of World WAR ii, resistance The Free French,
forces The Special Operations executive of the OSS i go
To paris every year to celebrate, them and was quite

(34:39):
surprised to learn that the enormous numbers Of jewish soldiers
From palestine who were in the Original Special Air service
and fought in you, know against The germans In egypt And.
Libya but one of the questions THAT i often, ask
AND i bring this around WHEN i went To auschwitz

(35:00):
for my second, VISIT i was therefore a conference called
Never Again. Really that was the name of the, conference
never again dot dot dot really question, Mark and it
was a horrific. TITLE i, MEAN i was shocked by
it and what it. Was they bought people from around
the world who had survived other. GENOCIDES i met a

(35:21):
woman who had you, know bladed into the, head who
didn't die from her wounds From, rwanda a kid who
was shot In, Bosnia, herzegovina a kid who somehow survived
The Cambodian, holocaust you, know genocide there of the killing.
Fields and a woman who was a one hundred year
Old auschwitz survivor who could literally take you to where

(35:45):
her birth was and show you the spot where her
bed was and say there were twenty five other women
on top of her and around her it's just. Horrific
but the promise of the entire conference was that it
was happening, again and they. Were this is twenty, nineteen

(36:05):
and the underlying theme Was Donald trump and his allies
in The axis Of autocrats are the leading edge in
what they believe is a fascist, wave authoritarian, wave right,
fascists maybe a little over the, top but a new
model of fascism wave. Happening and one of the questions

(36:27):
that came, UP i had a discussion there because one
of my favorite movies of all time Is judgment At.
NUREMBERG i Love judgment At nuremberg. Huge this movie made
me A Spencer tracy fan way before you know anything
else he, did you, know because it was a man

(36:48):
who was weighing on his soul what he was, hearing
what he was seeing within the law and the. Trial
and this is where people miss. It, everyone your homework
assignment is going Watch judgment At Number you're what you
don't realize what you're watching is not the trial of
THE ss officers who shot. People it is the jurist,

(37:10):
trial the trial of The Nazi Supreme court justices and the,
head The german who is famously paid By Colonel klink
Of Hogan's, heroes, right who.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
Is the head of the.

Speaker 3 (37:25):
Prose, these essentially the attorney general Of Nazi, germany are
all on trial not because of specific things they.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
Did they were.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
On trial, because and AS i wrote down on my
legal pad here a whole half. Page they authorized the
state theft of individual. Property they deputized the attacks to The,
behindman the gohein Stats, pulitzi The, gestapo, right the secret state,
police that's the official name of The they authorized the

(38:02):
denaturalization and stripping of, citizenship.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
Which led to the denaturalization of.

Speaker 3 (38:07):
Humanity they arbitrarily arrested and deported. People they reauthorized beheading
by guillotine for The naziss only, yikes. Right and then
there Was PROJECT t. Four the state authorized euthanasia of

(38:28):
hundreds of thousands of people who were considered what's the
Word liban's untevents livin, right the living, life who was
unworthy of, Life people who were mentally, ill people who
had you, know, autism anyone who had any birth defect.

(38:50):
Whatsoever if you weren't hidden and taken to the furthest
reaches Of, germany you were given a lethal injection into
your heart or AS i later, learned we'll talk about baby,
jails milk with caustic acid in. It others were nerve

(39:10):
gased to. Death these Were german, citizens and The Supreme
court Of Nazi germany created this super legal system which
protected every. Act AS i often, say one of the
one of the few places you, Know i'm a. Guy
i spent a lot of time in the. Military i've

(39:32):
seen horrible. Things i've seen rows of, Dead I've i've
been around a microgenocide. Happening and you, KNOW i JUST
i was in The Ukrainian army for a, year saw
loads of Dead. Russians, hey you, know the things that
make me the most upset are the things WHERE i
see them AND i AND i say this, phrase And

(39:54):
i've noticed that it's it's reflexive in. ME i said
it WHEN i was at The nova festival site last,
year Last. February and there's a father who took his
child who was paraplegic and every. Fest she liked dance
music esm you, know electronic dance.

Speaker 2 (40:16):
Music and she was.

Speaker 3 (40:18):
In her powered wheelchair and he would take her round
and she was like famous in the dance. Scene and
she was like nine years old and they executed her
and her. Father and the first words out of my
mouth were the same WORDS i said WHEN i went
To auschwitz AND i saw how small the, chalet the
seven hundred square foot room that killed one hundred thousand.

(40:41):
People and WHEN i went To Ann frank's house AND
i realized this is my, humanity, RIGHT i burst out
with these same words every.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
Time this is, wrong this is fucking.

Speaker 3 (40:55):
Wrong and Now i've got a government doing these exact same.
Things and let me tell you, something as a military,
professional as an intelligence, professional first fucking THING i think
is this has to be stopped because if we, don't
what's that famous line from The Tom clancy Movie hunt

(41:17):
For Red, october this thing's gonna spin out of control
and we could be looking at you, know AND i, know,
Look i'm what we call the five percent. Guy i'm
the guy who's there to tell you the worst thing
that's going to. Happen if we let things, happen if we're,
lucky ninety five percent of this will never even come into.
Consideration my problem Is i'm at the eighty five percent

(41:39):
point where all this shit's starting to. Happen so how
do you EXPLAIN i mean we have already. Made oh
here's some, things by the, way which were illegal In Nazi.
Germany free, speech freedom of, assembly right and to hide
from serve to. Survive And frank was breaking the law

(41:59):
in The. Netherlands her neighbor who turned her in was
the one who was legal and doing what was legally
right In nazi Occupied. Netherlands explain to me how the
hell we are not going to how we're gonna get

(42:21):
back off that eighty five percent?

Speaker 2 (42:23):
Shit hit me with, opium, BABY i need it.

Speaker 3 (42:27):
All coming up On, Friday july, fourth it's the forty
fifth anniversary broadcast OF A Capital.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
Fourth live from The West lawn of THE Us.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
Capitol Alfonso ribeiro hosts this all star celebration Of america's,
independence honoring our nation's.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
Freedoms and the brave men and women who.

Speaker 3 (42:48):
Protect, them and of, course featuring the most spectacular fireworks
show lighting up The, WASHINGTON dc, skyline all in honor
of our nation's two hundred and forty ninth.

Speaker 2 (42:59):
Birthday The Beach.

Speaker 3 (43:01):
Boys Mike, love who will be performing at this YEAR'S
A Capital, fourth has.

Speaker 4 (43:05):
More Hello, America I'm Mike love of The Beach, boys
and we couldn't be more excited to be back in
our nation's capital for the forty fifth anniversary broadcast OF
A Capital. Fourth this iconic celebration brings together, music, fireworks
and patriotic spirit live from The West lawn or THE Us.
Capitol we can't wait to share the stage with an

(43:28):
incredible lineup of artists as we Celebrate america's two hundred
and forty ninth. Birthday tune In july fourth at eight
Pm eastern seven Pm central ON pbs for a night
full of unforgettable moments and incredible fireworks in honor of
our nation's.

Speaker 3 (43:46):
Birthday this year's lineup Include The Beach, Boys The, Temptations Josh,
Turner Lauren Daegele, Trombone shorty Low, Cash Yolanda, adams And
Abbey car with The National Symphony. Orchestra the concert airs
ON pbs and streams live on YouTube On, Friday july

(44:09):
fourth at eight Pm. Eastern to learn, more VISIT pbs
dot org SLASH A Capital.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
Fourth what you're.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
Saying IS i think it's the Reason i'm, here which
is Everything hitler did was. Legal that judges trial that you're,
citing a federal judge made me read the transcripts of
The nuremberg judges trial for exactly the reason you're, saying
because it was. Legal they just made it, lawful. RIGHT

(44:43):
i think that what we have to understand is that
we are seeing a contraction of the sphere of where
we feel. Safe and the more people are, afraid the
more they look at for. Themselves SO i just want
to connect something you just Said malcolm To Ernest. Frankel,

(45:04):
again he, describes, right he's a labor. Lawyer so they
let him practice long after No jews are allowed to
practice In. Germany they let him practice because he was
A World War one veteran and they let them. Practice,
WELL i don't know why they let him. Practice it's,
fascinating but THEY i, mean he eventually had to. Run

(45:25):
he had to. Run but one of the things that
he describes in the dual state is that you could
win a trial and the guy at the back of the,
room The nazi henchmen at the back of the, room
would say to the, Judge, no that's how the dual state, operates,
Right and then it doesn't matter what the verdict. Is
what matters is what your bosses. Say so think about.

(45:46):
That in the context of what you're, saying which, is
if you exist in a state where the, emperor whether
It's hitler and The third or whether It's trump now,
right gets to say to a, JUDGE i don't care who,
won because this guy, loses then you are it's. Lost,

(46:08):
right then there is no rule of. Law and the
thing that two things THAT i just want to pull
from what you're. Saying one is when you take power
away from district court judges around the country to do
the one thing that they can, do which is trycases
right and say, no mister, president this is, unlawful and
you take power, away that's a version of. Right you're

(46:31):
it doesn't matter with the, Lawn, okay it's lawful and
it's not. Lawful and we don't understand, that. Right we
cannot get our heads around. That we're, like, well The
Supreme court ruled it was six. THREE i guess that
now you can't have injunctions universal. Injunctions so we are
slipping from you know what frankl would call the normative

(46:52):
state into the progative. State and it's happening so, Imperceptibly,
malcolm that we're, LIKE i guess it's just the law
that brings me to the other thing THAT i want to,
say which is this whole thing is a fucking protection. Racket,
right we have to stop thinking of this as a
system of the rule of. Law and it brings us
back to the, big, stupid ugly you know, bill WHICH

(47:13):
i know we were going to touch, on which, is
how is it possible that the Same republicans who were
saying right and, tweeting, oh hell, No i'm not going
to do this go in and meet With Donald trump
overnight and come out and vote. Yes why because they're.
Terrified and, again you know this better THAN i. Do

(47:34):
but the authority of control violence in government, right the
authority to deploy The Justice, department the authority to deport lawful,
citizens the authority to say we're going to strip funding
from all your cancer, Studies we're going to take green
cards away from your. Students the, threat the very, thinly

(47:59):
very thinly veiled threat of government, violence has everybody acting
in their own parochial best. Interest and the answer to
your question IS i think and it's again my hopium.
Thing one of the things that The Tim snyders and
The Ruth bangiats and The Jason stanleys and all the
experts on opposing. Authoritarianism teach us is have a big,

(48:23):
heart is go out in, community is see other. People
is get out from your bubble and understand that while you're,
afraid and you start to, think remember HOW. Jd vance
Described catholicism as this like concentric spheres of like you're
only supposed to protect your own. Family and The pope is, like,
no that's not. Religion we don't need religion to teach

(48:45):
us to be self interested in Parochial we do that.
Instinctively our instinct right now is to protect our own
and we are in a protection racket where YOUR cbs
or you are you, know one of the law for
that cut a, deal or you are a university that

(49:06):
took the deal because you are protecting your own interests
and you are. Terrified so let's call it what it,
is which is that the prerogative state has all the
guns and all the power and the mask, guys and
all the funding that just went To. Ice as you
AND i are talking and that we, contract we become
small and. Scared and SO i think the, Hopium, malcolm

(49:30):
is to have a, huge capacious heart in this moment
of shitty terror and to just recognize there are more
of us than, them and we can still do. Things
we are not boiled in the pot. Yet we are very.
Uncomfortable but if we don't get out on the, streets
that's what the No kings marches, Are that's what The

(49:51):
tesla marches, Are that's what all those people who call
their congressmen. Are we still have the power to make some.
Change we're, scared and we're scared because it is rational
to be scared when the coercive force of the government is.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Threatening speaking of coercive, force.

Speaker 3 (50:10):
How i'm only At question three is be, honest which
you talk, about you, know slow boiling in the. Pot
let's talk about the boiling. Water and the QUESTION i
was going to ask is Is america now a police?
Day because, LOOK i come from the armed, FORCES i
come from the intelligence, community AND i know how the

(50:32):
armed forces and intelligence community have been corrupted and used
in other. Countries but now we literally if, again if
this Were Burkina, fasso Where i've been Right Upper, volta
if this were you, know you, Know burundi or some other,

(50:53):
place AND i would see the rapid succession secession of
all of these activities of or to where you take
a small one thousand man paramilitary police force and are
about to ramp up to one hundred, thousand where you
have a budget that was pushed up Under.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
Trump the seventy five billion dollars will.

Speaker 3 (51:16):
Now exceed THE Us army's, budget the budget of The Marine.
Corps they're going to Give ice between one hundred and
sixty and one hundred and.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
Seventy three billion.

Speaker 3 (51:27):
Dollars they're hiring any contractor any former security. Guard i've
got their hiring, documents you. Know and they're big creating
a paramilitary force and they're. Paramilitary Who i'm, sorry these
Guys i've trained law.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
ENFORCEMENT i have been around law. Enforcement you.

Speaker 3 (51:48):
KNOW i went THROUGH swat school with The Capitol hill
when where all the rest of the classmates Were Capitol hill.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
Police these are not people who would wear a mask
over their.

Speaker 3 (51:57):
Face law enforcement officers wear their name out front with a.
Badge they now we now have a Geheidenstats. Polozzi this
is a secret. Police and you know what my QUESTION i,
mean they're they're literally loyal To. Trump they're not even.
Loyal icbp's mission has been taken, away and they are

(52:19):
now a snatch, force which is what we would call
them in the intelligence, world where their job was to
roll up and snatch off the street high value personages
or people who are. Dissenters my libby way back WHEN
i went To libyan language school At Brigham young of
all schools in the, place and my instructor's brother was

(52:42):
snatched off the, streets tortured, forever and then given a
video of his execution to his family By kadafi just
to make sure they understood what compliance really. Meant he
was just an example to. Them my problem with this,

(53:04):
IS i, mean they're hiring people who were former convicted
criminals who were given. Pardons did you know That they've
got a guy there who was a seal who actually
was convicted of stealing explosives from THE Us.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
Army and they made that part of his. Pardon he had.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
Dozens grenades and blocks of high explosives in his house
and was selling them to criminals on the black.

Speaker 2 (53:30):
Market he's been.

Speaker 3 (53:31):
Pardoned the guy who is the spokesman for or one
of the deputy, spokesmen was a guy who was found
on video screaming killed the, Cops kill the, cops so
that being, Said explain to me.

Speaker 2 (53:45):
How these people are not going to become the, Top
how the legal you, know how the judiciary.

Speaker 3 (53:51):
Is going to stop them from becoming The American tantan
mccoot Or saddam's muhabarat or, well what is It dina
In chile and by the, Way dina And, chile by the,
way people was called the director In Tallahensia nacional right
The National Intelligence. Directory these guys disappeared people by taking

(54:12):
them over The Pacific ocean and transports And argentina did it.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
Too and throw them out at.

Speaker 3 (54:18):
Altitude and On january sixth there was a guy wearing
A t shirt showing a body falling from an airplane
that Said pinochet did nothing. Wrong explain to me how
what it's going to. Take we have a functioning. Gestapo
Now i'm saying that as an intelligence, professional you cannot

(54:39):
convince me otherwise that we should not view them as
a state secret. Police, so now that that boiling water
has been presented to, US i don't think they care
about boiling the. WATER i think they intend to throw
us into the boiling. Water and anyone that gets scaled
is going to get it in the.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
NECK i think that what you have just laid out
is the absolute inexorable consequence of there being no repercussions
for black site TORTURE cia black site, torture, Right ANYA
us no. Repercussion. Right we can go on and. On
there's a constitutional sheriff movement in this. Country there are

(55:21):
a bunch of nutbars who run around and they are
sheriffs and they just feel as though they have the
constitutional authority to do what they. Want we have done
nothing to stop. Them by the, way we can debate
till the cows come home whether enough was done to
hold people responsible for The january sixth. Insurrection and you
are exactly, Right. Malcolm people have not just been. Pardoned

(55:42):
they have jobs at The Justice department, now, right people
who either either you, know participated or represented people who. Participated.
Right so we have failed to hold to account the
use of violent means to achieve you, know political ends

(56:03):
in a whole bunch of ways that are now coming
home to. Rusts you are not going to persuade. ME
i am completely aligned with your view that, nationalizing you,
know the the state, forces The National guard In california
bringing in The marines who have no no business you,

(56:24):
know we interviewed someone on our show who was, like
their job is to kill foreign people in foreign, Wars
like they don't do domestic. Policing there's a reason we
have the Pass Comatatis. Act we know all, this and
you are absolutely right that this begets more of the,
same which is other people putting on. Masks right, now
we have just randos on the streets Saying i'm an ice,

(56:46):
agent right Or i'm a police officer and shooting lawmakers In.
Minnesota so the problem with the sort Of Kyle rittenhouse
theory Of american hero, is which is that every single
guy who has seven guns and think sees the hero
in his own movie keeps getting exculpated and. Exonerated and
we are now living in a world in which nobody trusts, institutions,

(57:10):
Right nobody trusts the, police nobody trusts the, military nobody
trusts The Justice. Department, again THE Us Supreme court has a,
huge huge role to play in fostering mistrust of government.

Speaker 3 (57:24):
Institutions about one hundred and twenty days, ago we didn't
have this. Problem, well one hundred and TWENTY i trusted.
Cops one hundred and twenty days, AGO i just came
back From. Greenland my greatest fear was coming through The
customs And Border patrol. Checkpoint and WHEN i got, there
My Nexus global entry card didn't work. Right So i'm
thinking of you, know and here's what the customs officer. Said,

(57:45):
wow that's, weird you. Know so now we have this,
distrust which is What republicans have been saying about government
all this, time but now it's.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
Real it's visceral in.

Speaker 3 (57:58):
There and you, know one of the another QUESTION i
had is the worst COMING i mean you. Have by the,
way my last, book my Last times, bestseller was called
They want To Kill Americans the, malicious terrorist and deranged
ideology of The Trump. Insurgency and now that insurgency is exactly.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
WHAT i wrote in the.

Speaker 3 (58:19):
Book should they win, power they will become officially deputized
or self deputized enforcer Of trump's personal. Will and Now
i've got a GESTAPO i have to deal. With that's
that's masking the. Streets so that leads To eve to
we're getting running out of. Time so we're gonna give

(58:39):
you my my hopium, question, which by the, way not
a big fan of.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
Hopium, right abundantly, Clear, Malcolm so.

Speaker 3 (58:50):
Yeah, well my job, is you, know it's it's like
they do In, israel, right the one guy who must
attract you must tell you what bad.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
Come of, this.

Speaker 3 (59:00):
Right one thing THAT i keep hearing from people is, That,
okay they're going to get away with all the stuff.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
That they're going to.

Speaker 3 (59:07):
Do they've passed the you, know the big ugly, bill
and they're going to do the largest transfer of wealth in.
History they're also going to gut the court's power to
actually change things in A let's assume that for that
an election, happens there's a tied election or a car

(59:27):
accident where in which Four republican hardliners die and the
fouse flips right to the control of The.

Speaker 2 (59:36):
Democrats what does it?

Speaker 3 (59:38):
Matter my key question that people want to know, is let's,
say for, example that the pendulum swings are back to the,
left hard, left and there's a PRESIDENT, aoc you, Know Alexandria.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
Cortez let's just let's just ask this.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
Hypothetical now that the unitary presidency has been installed as a. King,
okay and here's another Little Malcolm nance rant That i'm famous.
For When George washington was At newburgh in the end
of the, war and the army wanted to revolt because
they weren't getting, paid and they Told, washington we're gonna

(01:00:15):
go down, There we're gonna Overthrow. Congress we're gonna make you.
King this is WHY i Love washington best of all,
presidents because he didn't, say you're all a bunch of fucking,
idiots go back to. Work he, said thank, YOU i
appreciate that you want to make me. King but didn't
we just fight a war over? This so should the
pendulum swing hard to the, left can a Future democratic

(01:00:39):
president or independent president.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
Arbitrarily just Say I'm president of The United.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
States My Justice department is now going to bring every
person we believe that is committed a human rights, violation
starting with you know Jd.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
Vance you know who could be former? President? Right Jd
vance Named.

Speaker 3 (01:01:00):
Stephen, Miller, Christinome PAM, bondi you Know, hogan all of
these guys who took part in this and Say i'm
sending you all to The hague to be put on
trial for crimes against.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
Humanity don't tell.

Speaker 3 (01:01:16):
ME i Know americans have never done, That, okay BUT
i do happen to remember the trial OF Atsi sally
And Tokyo rose people who worked for foreign powers even
though they Were american. Citizens but this would be, Extraordinary
but would it be within the law of the unitary
executive That Donald trump and The Supreme court have now.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
Made you're funny the idea funny haha or funny oh, oh,
funny uh oh funny in that you you may recall
we started this conversation WHEN i said That President biden
tried to do teensy little things. Right he tried to

(01:02:00):
do remain In. Mexico he tried to do you, know
climate some climate stuff through executive. Orders he tried to
HAVE covid mitigation through executive. Orders every single thing was.
Unlawful THE Us Supreme court invented, doctrines, right the major questions.
Doctrine where's that in The? Constitution you, asked where in the?

(01:02:21):
Statutes where in the case?

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
Books it's.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
Nowhere it's In Brett kavanaugh's. Brain they used a whole
bunch of made up doctrine to stymy his efforts to
do anything right right The Administrative Procedures. Act everything he
tried to do was. Lawless, right that was The affirmative action.
Right every single thing that he did.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
So i'm saying that a Future Supreme court will just
change the.

Speaker 1 (01:02:47):
Law i'm just saying that it's not even that they
will change the. Law they will dig into their bag
of tricks and find the tricks they used to Steymy
biden that they don't use to Steymy Donald, trump and
they will, say, oh you can't do any of, that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:02):
So Future democratic president can order their, arrest order the
dissolution Of Supreme court and then expanded to thirteen and
put in a thirteen to Zero democrat thirteen to, zero
singing my.

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
Song this is sort of Why.

Speaker 3 (01:03:14):
NO i, mean you're telling me, that you're telling Me
washington's dictum of that there's No kings is, gone which
means answers my own. Question The american experiment is, DEAD.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
I am telling, you AND i think this is, important,
yes any, no, no, no, no this is. Important and again
it's a little side of hopium with your triple. Espresso
BUT i want.

Speaker 3 (01:03:39):
To start snorting hopium because right Now i'm founding my
fourth doublest.

Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
Freebasing freebasing right INTO i Don't i'm stabbing myself as
THOUGH i, know is that how you? FREEBASE i have no.
Idea you can Tell i've never clearly angry. LISTENERS i
don't know how to freebase or to mine. Freebasing it's.
Welcome this is WHAT i want to. Say WHAT i
want to say is anybody who is listening to the
conversation that you AND i have just had and says

(01:04:05):
this gets solved in the twenty twenty eight election is
not paying attention because this, administration and again hand in
glove with This Supreme, court is making it harder to
vote right if you're, black or, brown or poor or a. Student.
Right This Supreme court and this administration IS i hate

(01:04:27):
to say, it but this is about to end what's
left of The Voting Rights. Act right in the case
The louisiana case that was held over for next, term
This Supreme court and this president think that the best
possible thing listeners to this show can do is kick
back and wait till the next election for the next
president to fix. IT i am not confident we have

(01:04:49):
free and fair elections unless we fight like dogs to
have freek in fair.

Speaker 3 (01:04:55):
Elections big fan Of National resistance helped organize The No king's.

Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
Protest you Know i'm all about.

Speaker 3 (01:05:03):
THAT i also understand of studied civil, resistance nonviolent civil.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
Resistance you, Know i'm headed To.

Speaker 3 (01:05:11):
Paris i'm going to be speaking to experts About nazi Occupied.
France there's a GREAT tv show if you want to
notice know how bad things can get called On Village,
francais and it's about a town in The alsas that's,
only you, know maybe twenty miles from The german, borders
and how it feels when they come into that town

(01:05:32):
on day one and over the five, seasons which is
five years Of nazi, occupation all of the forms of
resistance that there are civil, resistance you, know washing a red,
sheet a white sheet and a blue sheet and putting it,
outside but national resistance In, america Which i'm a big
firm believer For. Hopium for those of you who are

(01:05:53):
actually listening That i'm not looking for the twenty twenty six,
ELECTIONS i think that civil action on a mass of.
Scale they's seventy six Million Kamala harris, voters AND i
think that we should have our own project twenty twenty
five Called restoration seventy, six where the seventy six million
OF us and the eighty million that didn't vote restore

(01:06:16):
the values we may have to have a nonviolent Second
American revolution to restore the values of The.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
First American revolution that are now being.

Speaker 3 (01:06:25):
Destroyed and if that means Shutting america down until the,
courts you can't force The Supreme court to, resign, right
but you could certainly force a.

Speaker 2 (01:06:37):
Referenda you could force people to do.

Speaker 3 (01:06:39):
Things nobody says that we have to go along the
timeline that we. Have The Southern secession actually ignored the
entirety of eighteen sixty, election, right and they went their own.
Way AND i hate to say, it they actually had
a better basis in The constitution for what they did

(01:06:59):
that was legally then what's happening. Now what we have
now is a constitutional. Dictatorship and as you, said this
dual track legal world, system and it reminds me of this.
Quote i've got this down That Derek Van, orden Former navy,
chief which really upsets me BECAUSE i was a chief

(01:07:19):
and a Former navy, seal said yesterday that The republicans
were not a bunch of little bitches that just do
Whatever trump.

Speaker 2 (01:07:27):
Says and it's.

Speaker 3 (01:07:28):
Pretty clear The republicans are a bunch of little bitches
that just do Whatever trump, says we don't have A,
congress we have a Pollet bureau like The Soviet, union
and they're just there to maintain their level of power
so that they can shop in The goom department, store

(01:07:49):
which to my belief is that they are just want
access to the global oligarchy and the riches that exist out.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
There i'm afraid say. It i'm actually gonna say. This
that was What Ann land wrote in The. Fountain.

Speaker 3 (01:08:07):
Yeah, yeah they're, like we're not going To colorado because
we're smart. People we're the people who have taken over
government and it's crony capitalism at its, finest and they
intend to do away with The american.

Speaker 2 (01:08:22):
Experiment what's your last thoughts on how we should?

Speaker 3 (01:08:26):
Fight and you, know because as you, say voting may
not be the tool you have.

Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
Anymore so one thing you just said made me think of,
something and this is. IMPORTANT i think that we're always
fighting the last.

Speaker 3 (01:08:39):
War.

Speaker 1 (01:08:39):
Right this is again your, jurisdiction not. Mine but WHEN
i think about The Supreme, Court i've been covering The
court for twenty five years AND i even blurted it
wrongly in this, show AND i said The koch, brothers,
Right AND i talked about The Heritage foundation And Leonard.
Leo that's not the, problem, right the tech. Bros that's the.
Problem oh, yeah that's the oligarchy that we should be thinking,
about not like guys who want to manufactureself right In.

(01:09:03):
Texas this is about global. Power this is the.

Speaker 3 (01:09:06):
Dark enlightenment theory of, which by the, WAY i did
my episode On greenland BECAUSE i went To greenland because
this is one of the nations they want to take
over into what's called the technic of The United, States, Canada,
greenland all that, stuff and they are, themselves you, know
part of this autocracy. Movement but you know my problem

(01:09:29):
with this, is and this will be the last word on,
This i'm afraid to say BECAUSE i want to come
on your podcast so we can expand this.

Speaker 2 (01:09:36):
Conversation what we are not fighting the last.

Speaker 3 (01:09:40):
War we are fighting the pathway that leads to that
documentary that was sent to us from the future Called. Idiocracy,
Yep and you cannot convince me the Movie ideocracy was
anything but a documentary brought back to us from the.
Future because we are well on our, way by the,

(01:10:02):
way bought to you BY Carls, junior.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
And you, Know.

Speaker 3 (01:10:07):
President camacho is literally. There you could almost create. It
you could almost make a picture Of Donald trump Jd
vance wearing, uh you, know A TESLA t shirt With
tesla logos onto. It off To Hector Alessando Mountain Dewke
camacho shooting machine guns on The Oval office place a

(01:10:30):
platform by the.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
Way another homework.

Speaker 3 (01:10:32):
Assignment if you haven't Watched, IDIOCRACY i swear to you
it is a documentary from the future set back to
warn us through a portal In.

Speaker 1 (01:10:42):
Costco watch it with your watch it with your. Kids
that's WHAT i. Would that's my glass on, that because
when you watch it with your, kids they're, like oh my,
god is THIS, Cnn like they don't even fully understand.

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):
THAT i didn't think many laughs in this.

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
Episode and the last, thing CAN i just respond to
one last? THING i think you've just said the most salient,
thing and it's really. Important despair is the, enemy, RIGHT i,
mean every time someone flings up their arms and says
we're all, screwed it's, Over Like Steve bannon gets his.
Wings so we just have to not like if we

(01:11:21):
succumb to, That like it really is like we are
paving the way to, ideogracy AND i think that What
i've been trying to, say And i'm like sort of
calling it, hopium BUT i really think it's like a soul,
request which is be bigger than you, are, right you,
know when you go camping and like the sign at
Like Yellowstone park says like if you see a, bear

(01:11:42):
be bigger than you. Are and you're, like, wait the
laws of physics like militate against. Me i'm only the
size THAT i. Am be bigger than you, Are, like
be bigger than you. Are AND i think that's What
i'm asking people to. Do it's what you're asking people to,
do is just like be bigger instead of. Smaller and
we know you're, scared and like it's not good enough

(01:12:02):
to be, scared and it's not good enough to be,
cynical and it's not good enough to like rage, tweet
like just be. Bigger that's.

Speaker 3 (01:12:09):
That thank you so much for coming On Blackland spine
giving us that stage of.

Speaker 2 (01:12:14):
MUCH i didn't think we would get a laugh out
of this.

Speaker 3 (01:12:17):
EPISODE i was near tears and cry earlier and you terrified.
Me but thank you you now have given me some,
delicious delicious, opium which we don't have to. Freebase that
was just pure and it didn't even have to come
in a pipe.

Speaker 2 (01:12:37):
Right thank you so.

Speaker 3 (01:12:40):
MUCH i look forward to coming onto your. Podcast everyone
Followed Dahlia. Lithwick where where are you? At where can
you be Found slate.

Speaker 1 (01:12:49):
Dot, Com amicus podcast contributor TO.

Speaker 2 (01:12:52):
Msnbc, yes and we'll see you out.

Speaker 3 (01:12:55):
There thank you, again lah enjoy your evel and where you,
are and dodge those.

Speaker 2 (01:13:03):
Missiles don't miss the air. Raids silence, bye ba By.
Wow thank you for Watching Black Man.

Speaker 3 (01:13:11):
Spy you, SEE i have removed my interview blazer so
that WHICH i wore for that incredible, interview AND i
do feel uplifted at the. End i've learned quite a
bit From Dhalaia. Leithwick and that being, said it is
easy to become. Despondent it is easy to feel like

(01:13:33):
your soul is being torn, at and it is easy
to feel like all of this is bigger than. You
it's even easier to ignore it. All so that being,
said do not ignore what is happening around. You if
you're a listener Of Black Man's, spy that means you
understand That i'm bringing you this from the perspective of

(01:13:56):
someone who is an intelligence, professional And i'm now having
to delve deeper and deeper and deeper into how it
must have felt in seventeen seventy five or seventeen seventy,
four as The American revolution was spiraling out of control
and the intolerable acts are placed on top of. YOU

(01:14:17):
i feel a lot of stuff that we talked about
today to, me as An, american as A philadelphia as
a person who spent my whole life protecting, you these
things are intolerable to, me AND i will not stand for.
It and with THAT i usually end with a quote
By Rudyard kipling because big fan Of, kipling member of

(01:14:40):
The Kipling, society and of course he was also an intelligence.
Practitioner the problem THAT i have now is that the
things that he writes.

Speaker 2 (01:14:51):
Are just not good enough for what we're.

Speaker 3 (01:14:54):
Doing So i'm going to end with a quote from Sun,
zoo WHICH i think typify what's happened In america this.
Week an evil man will burn his own nation to
the ground to rule over the. Ashes that's what you
need to take away from this. Week we are seeing
activities in which an evilman is burning down his own

(01:15:17):
nation so that he can rule over the ashes and
you have to help participate in defending. That so with,
that see you next. Week we're gonna have another great.
Interview be sure to tune in if you have it.
Before On Apple. Stitcher you can see me On Malcolm
nance dot substack dot, com which is a WHERE i

(01:15:38):
do most of my long form. Writing you can. Subscribe
it also gets all of The Black Man spy podcasts on.

Speaker 2 (01:15:45):
YouTube you can see all of those.

Speaker 3 (01:15:48):
Activities that's where you can find, me and On Blue
sky At Malcolm nance dot b sky dot dot. Com
so And i'm on x not doing anything helping elon
muscout on that. Platform so thank you for coming to
this Week's Black Man spy AND i will see you
out in the.

Speaker 2 (01:16:06):
Field