June 11, 2025 • 50 mins
In this episode of Black Thought: The Spark, Pastor Gohlstin and DJ Black Unicorn sit down with Heather Flynn, former Senior Professional Staff Member for the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Flynn shares stories from her time advising on Africa and global health policy, offering a behind-the-scenes look at U.S. foreign policy, international development, and her travels across the African continent. They discuss how Africans perceive African Americans, the complexities of global Black identity, and what it means to bridge the cultural and historical gaps across the diaspora.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
This is w OVU Studios.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Good afternoon people. You now listening to Black Thought. Everything
must change to inform, to inspire, and to impact. On
w o v U ninety five point nine FM. Hey, Uni,
you've had a great weekend. I know, yes, I did.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I ate well, I got some rest.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And no you're didn't you cut the grass? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yeah, I did well, he cut the grass. I swept,
But yeah, all right, all it worked out. Teamwork, make
the dream work.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
What did my love Diva do?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Oh my goodness, she's like, I don't know what's going
on RIGHTBI, but she's she's just growing like a weed.
I'm so proud. I'm so happy. She's so tall, so
so tall. Everyone thinks she's like two years elder than
what she actually is, and it's just a beautiful thing
to watch. I'm just so grateful to God. I really
(00:58):
really am.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Well, you know, I was listening to they show you
were recording just a few minutes ago, and I heard
one of the participants say that no one, you know.
I think she said something to the point that they
tell us to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, but
(01:21):
nobody gives us any boots. And I have a little
problem with that in terms of why do I have
to wait for someone to give me some boots? All right?
And I think part of our problem is that we
have a dependency on someone else always, which requires loyalty
(01:44):
on our part, okay, because if you ain't dependent, your
grit's gonna get cut off, okay, Or if you're not loyal,
your grits will be cut off okay. And so I'm
of the ilk. You know, why can't we begin to
pull some things together to develop our own boots rather
(02:08):
than waiting for someone to give us some boots. There's
a good book I read, Oh my granddaughter turned me
on to oh maybe six seven years ago? Who moved
my cheese? All right? And that's kind of that concept
where the cheese There were I think three rats, and
(02:32):
the cheese got cut off, and one rat began to cry,
you know what are we gonna do? You know, we
went out the cheese, you know, we we we we
got to make sure someone gives us some more cheese.
And they begin to you know where we're gonna get
the cheese from? Who can we pressure to give us
some more cheese? Well, the other two rats left and
(02:56):
one went a little far off and developed a little
fanism for itself, all right, so that it did not
have to depend on someone to bring some cheese. But
the third rat went into a new land and found
some new exotic cheeses that had never been experienced before,
all right. And he came back and he told the
(03:18):
second rat, okay, second miles, and the second mouse left
and went to find the land of exotic cheese. And
he went and told the first mouse, and he refused
to move. We gotta sit right here. We're gonna wait.
Somebody's got to bring us some more cheese, right And
I think that's where many of us are, that we're
(03:40):
waiting on someone to bring us some cheese rather than
going and finding the opportunity for some more exotic cheese.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
The doctor was talking about that too. She definitely was
talking about just the upliftment and building within our own
communities as well, and getting back to reading as well.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, but we need to we need to stop waiting
for someone to give it to us, all right. Natural
law says we're entitled to it, and so we have
the right to begin to build for ourselves. I don't
want to get off into that. We have a guest
in the in the studio and a wonderful person I
(04:19):
met recently her. She is formerly of the Senate Foreign
A Committee. She served the Senate Foreign A Committee under
a senator out of the state of Maryland. All right.
Her name is Heather Flynn, and she happens to be
the cousin of someone who we are familiar with. She's
(04:42):
the cousin of Sapphire who has been on the station
with us several several times. Welcome Heather, how are you today?
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Can you move in front of the mic so they
can hear you. Oh, they're not gonna hear you if
you are so far. Hey, I am good, I'm good.
I just want the people to be able to hear you.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
On today, I'm going to actually.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Have you mose to that theravice that was gone out
that one. There we go.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Wonderful. Thank you so much, Thank you so much, Rabbi,
thank you so much for the kind invitation. It's wonderful
to be here with you today.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Good to have you here. One of the things, you know,
described to our listeners exactly what did you do in
your responsibilities with the Senate Foreign Aid Committee?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Certainly, certainly. So. As you mentioned, I was a senior
professional staff member with the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and
I held that position since November twenty fourteen, and in
that role, I was responsible for policy advice to the
(05:59):
lead Democrat on the Committee in the areas of Africa
and global health. And so our job on the Committee
is mainly to provide oversight of executive branch policies, programs,
and activities. And as you know, in the Senate there
(06:20):
are thirteen standing committees, and each of those committees is
responsible for a certain area of oversight of the executive branch.
And so our responsibilities on the Foreign Relations Committee include
advice and consent for nominees to serve as ambassadors and
(06:42):
to serve as high ranking officials in executive Branch agencies,
as well as advice and consent for treaties. And we
were and the committee remains responsible for oversight of foreign
assistance programs as well as diplomatic operations. So State Department,
(07:06):
what used to be the US Agency for International Development,
the Millennium Challenge Corporation, all the programs and activities carried
out by those agencies were the focus for the Foreign
Relations Committee.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Okay, I I want to go a little deeper into
what you're describing or sharing with us, But I have
a question in your physician, what does it feel like
to be empowered the black woman?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Well, I will say there were days where I did
not feel very empowered, But overall, it's a job that
carries with it significant responsibility and responsibility over matters in
(07:58):
terms of how the US engage with countries that it's
no exaggeration to say were at times matters of life
and death. And so when you think about some of
the foreign assistance programs the United States carries out, it's
everything from humanitarian assistants in the wake of natural disaster
(08:23):
in the midst of conflict, to critical global health programs
including the President's Emergency Plan for HIV and AIDS. And
it's really truly a responsibility that is difficult to describe
and at the same time, maybe a bit counter intuitively
(08:50):
felt like a privilege as well to be entrusted to
carry out the responsibilities of that job.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
How did you encounter the privilege?
Speaker 3 (09:01):
How did I encounter You know, I always tell people
I got into this business through just divine intervention. I
guess my master's degree is in international relations, and as
I pursued my master's degree, I thought that I wanted
(09:22):
to be an academic, and so when I graduated, I
pursued a PhD at Georgetown University. And after some time
in the academic world, what I discovered through taking some
courses at the School of Foreign Service was that the
(09:43):
policy world was much more intriguing to me. And I
did an internship for a gentleman in the House of Representatives,
as the late Gary Ackerman, who was a member of
the House Foreign Affairs Committee, and through that work realized
(10:03):
became intrigued by the work of Congress. And I sent
a cover letter in a resume to a gentleman named
Joe Biden, because my master's degree was from the University
of Delaware and he was the ranking member on the
Senate Foreign Relations Committee at the time. And I sent
(10:28):
it to the chief of staff in his personal office,
not even the chief of staff of the committee, and
it caught his attention, and he sent it to the
chief of staff of the Committee, who just happened to
be looking for someone to cover Africa and refugee humanitarian
and foreign assistants. And long story short, I got the
(10:49):
nod okay.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
All right, Africa, Africa. I hear you all all keep
mentioning Africa. What was your experience in Africa? What did
you see? You know, we we see movies and even
(11:11):
some positive exposure every now and then, but what did
you find?
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Well, you know, it's an interesting story, and I think
as I look back, it stems from the fact that
in middle school we had courses on geography and world affairs,
and ironically, we looked at Latin America, we looked at Europe,
(11:42):
we looked at Asia, but we never had a section
on Africa. I couldn't tell you why that that is.
I could only speculate, but it was an unexplored, unrealized
area of my middle school and high school education. In
undergraduate school, I studied communication arts. I thought I wanted
(12:06):
to go into the media, and I began to be
quite dissatisfied with only reporting the news and analyzing the news,
and wanted to understand why, why events, why politics were
unfolding their way they were. And so when I went
(12:27):
to graduate school to study international relations, I decided I
wanted to focus on an area of the world that
wasn't typically covered in the media. Hadn't been part of
my academic background, and that's when I began to look
at specifically US foreign policy towards Africa. Were what informed
(12:51):
what were the motivations, what sorts of informations were decision
makers taking into account what in fluenced decision makers? And
so that began my intrigue with Africa.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Okay, and I'm assuming, in your working, assuming the responsibilities,
that you travel to Africa, Yes, okay, how many of
the African countries approximately?
Speaker 3 (13:24):
I am going to say approximately thirty. My area of
focus has always been sub Saharan Africa, meaning the countries
along the Mediterranean Maghreb. I don't have expertise in My
expertise is in the lower forty nine countries of the continent,
(13:46):
and of those probably about thirty, maybe maybe a few
more than that.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
In fact, what did you find here? What would the
living conditions, the moreys folks ways, the micro and macro economics?
If you will sure.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Sure, well, I will say that, as you can imagine,
there are vast differences between countries on the continent. Africa
is usually spoken about as an entity in and of itself,
but in fact it is a grouping of quite diverse
(14:30):
countries with diverse, diverse communities, diverse governments, diverse economies, and
so it would take it would take quite a long
time to describe them all. However, what I will say
is that really one of the one of the common
(14:55):
threads that I discovered was that the prosper of a
country was directly linked to the effectiveness of its governance.
And so many of the countries in Sub Saharan Africa
are still struggling with strong governance that is accountable to
(15:18):
the people that it purports to govern. And the weaker
the connection between the people and the government, the less
the less healthy the society is. And that can manifest
in not only its politics, but the economics of a country.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
One of the things that I'm curious about, I'm sure
UNI will have a pleathara of questions as usual. One
of the things I'm curious what is the perception of
some of the people of Africa, of Africa Americacans in
this country.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
That's it's a good question, and I think it depends
on their engagement with Americans period and through what mechanism, right,
because Americans on the on an official basis engaged through
the embassy, and so people will have contact in many
(16:25):
instances with diplomats or USAID, the Agency for International Development,
and so those might be individuals with whom Africans have
have some connection with. The Peace Corps is another Peace
Corps volunteers is another mechanism. Academics another mechanism. And I
(16:50):
think their perception of African Americans is directly related to
who they come into con tact with. And I would
say there's no real there's no real way to encapsulate
(17:11):
it in generalities. I would say that there are some
instances where I have talked to communities who knew African
Americans through their work at the Agency for International Development
and certain key programs such as the President's Emergency Plan
for AIDS Relief or PEPFAR, and the impact that that
(17:34):
program had on people's lives was so enormously profound. And
the positive impact on people's perceptions of America, the United
States African Americans is hard to overstate, actually, and there
are if you look through the you find that there
(18:00):
is still positive feeling about those institutions, those individuals, the
impact that they had on African leaders, for example, And
so I would say there's that lens and then there's
there are the people who look at current events and
are quite concerned about the condition of African Americans in
(18:24):
the United States. Maybe a good example of that might
be the news going around the world about George Floyd. Yes,
as you recall, and shocking to people here, shocking to
people abroad, including Africans, and you know some degree of
I think dismay about the treatment of the diaspora here
(18:49):
in the United States.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Similator Fulbright some years ago wrote a book called Arrogance
of Power. Okay, I would like to address that as
it relates to your Foreign Mission Committity Committee. When we
come back from the station break. You have been listening
to Black Thought. Everything must change on w o v
(19:11):
U ninety five point nine FM. We will be right back.
All right, people, you're back here with Black Thought. Everything
must change, to informed, to inspire and to impact. On
w OVU ninety five point nine FM. This is your host,
the Rabbi, along with the Black Unicorn and our special guests,
Miss Heather Flynn, who had served on the Senate Foreign
(19:36):
Aid Committee for that many years. Were before we went
to break. We were talking about Senator ful Bright's book,
The Arrogance of power. And I think there's a movie
that kind of relates to what the ugly American and
the perception of the not the non political, the non
(20:03):
policy perception of Americans and African Americans in other countries.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Yes, I I look. I think that people form perceptions,
sometimes based on fact, sometimes based on implicit bias. I
think it's it's unavoidable. I think in my in my
experience traveling in and around Africa, and and most of
(20:36):
that has been as unofficial business. And so that's one
type of engagement with Africans. You engage on the official level,
with elected officials, with with government officials, but also with
non governmental organizations, civil society, activists, media, uh and and
(21:00):
I think there is for certain, among many different groups
a perception of the United States in and of itself,
in the role that the United States plays. And one
thing that is I think quite fascinating when you engage
(21:25):
with people overseas, and I'm specifically talking about Africa, that's
where I have most of my overseas experience, there is
a perception about the relative power of the United States,
the relative influence the United States, sometimes greatly exaggerated from
what you and I would think of as US power
(21:49):
to the extent that there is. There is a perception
that I have run into when I've traveled to countries
that were in the midst of an electoral contest, that
our voice as the US was directly correlated with the
outcome of those elections. And one always hesitates to say
(22:19):
how or to diminish. I was never in a comfortable
diminishing the idea of US influencer power. But we certainly
were not as powerful as some individuals believed, and we
certainly weren't controlling the outcome of elections throughout the continent.
(22:42):
What I at our best, I think the US was
quite clear on communicating commitment to principles of a free
electoral contest, but certainly not picking the winners per se.
But there was always a present, or quite frequently I
should say, a perception that we that we did do that.
(23:04):
And you know, to an extent, if you look back
through history, there were some incidents where we were not
at our best, either in Africa or in other parts
of the world.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I liked that we.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yes evolved, evolved. The double V victory was was uh
was for a reason there. But certainly I like to
think that we have evolved through the years in terms
of how we engage on the continent.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
What has been your reception here in America as a
Black woman who as who was empowered and African American
black woman who was empowered and moving in those kinds
of circles.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
I would say, overall, I've had a positive experience. But
I do not discount the fact that it is still
the case that not everyone is comfortable with African Americans
in positions of authority. And I think that while it
(24:19):
is the case that people don't will will not admit
to implicit bias, all of us, all of us are
subject to implicit bias. It's not something we necessarily have
full control over. It something that we can recognize and
(24:42):
work on. And I would be it would be foolish
of me to say that that has never informed how
people have engaged. And I do think that certainly we're
hearing a lot in the news about antipathy or rejection
(25:03):
of diversity, equity and inclusion efforts. And the irony is
that I do think that there are people who think
whenever they see an African American, or for that matter,
(25:26):
a woman in a position of authority, that they assume
that it is because there was some sort of effort
at call it affirmative action, call it DEI, call it
whatever you will, that that is the reason that I
(25:50):
or anyone else was in the position that we held.
And it's still a constant battle to established ones. Bona
fitte is when one is in that in that role.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
How does that make you feel?
Speaker 3 (26:08):
It's a it's a challenge, but it makes me feel
as though I need to rise to the challenge. I
do not think that that it should be a limiting
factor for me or for anyone else. It is still
one of the things that women in the workplace have
(26:30):
to combat. It's still one of the things that people
of color have to combat. It may not be it
may not be fair, but it's life is not fair
to any of us across the board all the time.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
What should that combat look like from your perspective?
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Well, look, I think it is the case that none
of us has control over what other people think. We
just don't. And I think for me, my effort has
always been to be as prepared as I can be
(27:20):
to fulfill the responsibilities that are set before me. And
you know, there's a there's an old, old, old and
ancient proverbs, which you know talks about about being diligent
(27:40):
in all of your ways, and so I've always sought
to be diligent in all my ways.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Uni, you have a question for Heather. Okay, all right,
Oh well, we'll go to go to another break right now, UNI,
take us out of here. You have been listening to
Black Thought. Everything was changed on w o VU ninety
five point nine FM. All right, people, you're back who
had Black thought. Everything was changed to inform, to inspire
(28:08):
and impact on w o VU nine five point nine FM. Heather,
We're gonna switch a little bit here, and I want
to talk to you about the Wooly Lynch syndrome of division. Okay,
(28:29):
and Adrian Adrian Carter in his book Black Fragility talk
about black men and black women aspire towards power, recognition,
and validation of their white male and female counterparts. As
a man, the black man desires to dominate his environment, rule,
(28:54):
and bill. As a man does, however, he is subjugated
as inferior, as an inferior man to white man. The
black man is also black and thereby subjugated as an
inferior race and left vulnerable to the stereotyped tropes of
(29:15):
his race. He's left only to will power over the
black woman, who presents herself as a formal opponent opponent.
She does not intend to be his opponent. But as
both black men and black women grapple with the state
of inferiority, they attempt to gain power, recognition, validation over
(29:37):
each other. Because at no time is it permissible to
gain such advancement over the shoulders of white men and women,
even with the assistance from a neighboring race or higher
economic class a sympathizer. The temporariness and porousness leads a
(29:58):
lingering feeling of distrust. How do how do you receive that?
Was that a bit much for us to bite off
right there?
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Well, it is certainly the case. I think that it
is that that the issue of the impact of of
the history of racism merits research in terms of the
impact on black psychology and and psychological well being of
(30:31):
of African Americans. And I think that and and and
it's not as though no work has been done, but
I think continued work is worthwhile. And as we engage
with with within the African American community, with other communities,
(30:52):
I think an awareness of uh, the impact of circumstances
is certainly merited. I do think that it is. It's
it's you know, I think about former Secretary of State
Madeline Albright, and you know, she talked about there being
(31:16):
a special place in hell for women who don't support
other women, and that that principle, that concept, that theme
could just as easily be applied to how people of
color deal with one another, right, And I think sometimes
(31:39):
there's this idea that success is a zero sum game,
that there's only there's only a limited there's a finite
amount of success. There's an even more finite amount of
success for people of color, there's a finite amount of
success for women. And so your success must then necessarily
(32:04):
come at the expense of someone else's, and so it
becomes a source of it can become I would imagine,
a source of conflict if if that is what you believe.
I don't believe that success is finite. I believe that
each of us can be superlative at whatever it is
(32:24):
we do. I don't believe it has to come at
the expense of someone else. I will say that really
there's this idea that what is set aside for you
is set aside for you, and so if it's meant
to be, it will happen. And one does not have
to achieve success at the detriment of other people. And
(32:46):
in fact, it's a responsibility of each of us to
see how we can facilitate the success of other people
who may not have the same net works, or who
may not have the same access or who may not
know what we know. And the more experienced I am,
(33:11):
and the more and the broader my networks become, the
more I think of it as a responsibility for me
to be very conscious about helping people who are really
trying to step into a space where they are in
a position to fulfill whatever it is their dreams or
(33:35):
their destiny is.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
So let me let me so. Then the four hundred
years that Israel spent an Egypt was predestined.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Well, far be it from me to argue with the
theologian about predestination. That's a land land, land mine field.
I will I will not step in. But what I
will say is, in my faith tradition, all things work
to the good. And so we have these experiences that
(34:14):
may not feel that great at the time, but they
all work to the good, and so I take it
as a matter of faith. Now, not everyone shares that faith,
and not everyone would share that that philosophy, but I
do believe that in this concept of beauty for ashes
(34:36):
and that there is a plan for each of us.
And so you know, one has to participate in one's
own life. But that is that is the the the
the faith tradition that I adhere to.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Okay, I wasn't trying to get into your faith tradition,
but I was it was going to lead to if
that was true with Israel? Is it true then with
the four hundred and sixty years of abuse that we
have suffered at the hands of this country, and that
(35:15):
was that preordain? Or do we have some responsibility?
Speaker 3 (35:24):
There is no doubt that, as I said, we all
have to participate in our own lives, and we all
make decisions right that lead to lead to other decision
points right. And so whether it's four hundred and sixty
(35:44):
plus years of circumstances where where by law and by practice,
certain people did not enjoy the same rights and privileges
as other people, or another circumstance, it's up to all
of us to decide what we what we can and
(36:08):
should do as members in a society in order to
make a more perfect union. And so and so, I
don't you know, I don't think.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
That there is a.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
Way for anyone too to look at circumstances and determine
that they have nothing to do with them. Each of
us has to take some measure of responsibility to participate
in our personal life, in our civic life, to create
the society in which we want to live.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Well, that leads me to then then there are those
who would share with us the thought that there are
people who look like us who are skillfully irresponsible and
(37:05):
willfully irresponsible. Skillful irresponsibility means that they have not been
taught to be responsible. They have not been given the
tools to be responsible. Skills all right, they don't know
how to be irresponsible, I mean responsible. Willfully irresponsible means
(37:30):
that I choose to be irresponsible, because to become responsible
means I have to give up being a victim.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Well, look, I will say this, none of us is
born knowing everything or come on now nothing and so
it did. Look stepping back, let let me say this.
The way our the way our democracy is structured, requires
(38:04):
requires each of us two be informed participants it just
it just doesn't work unless unless citizens are informed participants,
and so we each have a responsibility to play in
that are But public education has a response. We we
(38:28):
pay taxes at the local level, at the state level,
we pay federal taxes. Our education system is free and available.
It doesn't always work optimally, but that is where the
basics we learn the basics of how to be informed citizens.
(38:49):
And once you are given those basics, once you're able
to take advantage. Now we could have a long conversation
about the the the challenges in the public education sector,
but the theory is, the theory of the case is
that one has UH. One, one goes, one spends some
(39:10):
time there, One is taught about about how our country functions,
and then one makes informed decisions. One one takes time
right to educate oneself about what's happening at the local level.
Is what is happening, how are we being governed?
Speaker 2 (39:31):
UH?
Speaker 3 (39:32):
What is it? Uses takes advantage of the availability UH
through a free media to understand what decisions are being
made by elected officials and participates in that system. And
it's not a perfect system, and it hasn't been accessible
(39:53):
to all. We happen to live in a time where
a lot that has We have access to a lot
that people have fought for us to have access to.
And there's always more to learn, and there's always more
to do. But it is a responsibility that each of
us has. Some people have a greater challenge in their
(40:15):
circumstances exercising those rights and responsibility and taking advantage of
those rights than others do. But to the extent that
each of each person, each individual has access and chooses
willfully not to take advantage, well, that's to hallow all
of our detriment. Because the body politic is not healthy
(40:41):
unless citizens are making informed decisions.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
I agree with you. However, the skillfully irresponsible right does
not have the tools because philosophically, the process, the theory
all right democracy is one thing, but the practicality of it,
based on who controls right determines what information I'm given
(41:13):
so that I can be informed over and against maybe
another group who's getting I have full access on the
other group has limited access, therefore cannot skillfully be as
informed and have the tools to be responsible. Visa the
(41:34):
educational system I know here in Cleveland has been very lacking.
I don't know if we only have about six seven
minutes left. But five years ago survey was four years
ago survey was taken by Case Western Reserve, and sixty
(41:54):
six percent of the adults in Cleveland are functionally illiterate,
all right. And in some war this Ward five and
Ward seven, ninety five percent of the adults are functionally illiterate.
So how can they make an informed decision, all right
(42:16):
when they have not been given the necessary tools?
Speaker 3 (42:21):
Well, look, those are stunning statistics, absolutely stunning statistics and
very troubling. And what I would say are two things.
Number one, it is it is incumbent upon those of
us who do have the skills to advocate on behalf
(42:44):
of those who may not have them, because I think
in this in the twenty first century in the United States,
there is no excuse for any any significant amount of
illiteracy in any community. I will also say that one
(43:05):
thing that we should all think about is the fact
that if we as African Americans look back to three
four generations to our elders, they may not have had
the educational opportunities that we had, but they were still
(43:28):
able to make smart, informed decisions. And so while those
statistics are very alarming, I think it's important to realize
that we should not assume that individuals who haven't had
access in the formal sense cannot be informed and make
informed decisions. We live in an age where information is
(43:55):
quite easily accessible radio, television, where you can learn and
know things about how you are being governed that can
inform the decisions you make about who you want representing
you at any given point in time.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
And I hear you, and in the meantime, I have
the informs uh information, But I don't want anybody to
know that I can't write my name, I can't write
read the ballot, and so therefore, you know, I refuse
to participate uh uh and in this in the in
(44:38):
the theory, if you will. And that then leads me
to a frustration, all right, that I don't belong, that
I can't make a difference. Where before, uh, we had
(44:58):
so little pride think all right, that we didn't mind
going and making an ex girls we couldn't sign our names.
So yeah, is that we Is it that we're caught
up in being modern? Being twenty first century? Are we
(45:26):
so caught up in and concentrating on our invisible ache
or caught up because no one is really hearing our
pain all right, that that paralyzes us or is it,
in your opinion, something different.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
Well, it's a good question. You've uncovered quite a dilemma,
and it's I'm fascinated by your question because this is
what's interesting is that if you if you go, if
I were to, you know, be able to replay scenes
(46:11):
from trips that I've taken abroad to marginalized communities or
communities with very low literacy overseas, and how they exercise
their their democratic rights, their voting rights for the first
time in some instances, they this dilemma confronts them as well.
(46:32):
And one of one of the things that we have
going for us here in the United States is that
our our non governmental organizations, our community organizations are able
to function in a robust fashion. And this is where
this is where advocacy and community organizations step in to
(46:54):
help at the grassroots, to identify barriers that you have discussed,
and to step in and provide ways to provide help
if people are willing. Now, whether or not the psychological
ache is to profound, it's a good question. I don't know,
(47:14):
but I have to imagine that there are some people
who will be self aware enough to maybe step outside
their comfort zone to overcome that ache, to take advantage
of assistance from some of the many organizations that are
focused on helping people exercise their democratic rights.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
For me, it's a catch twenty two because we go
back to one of the opening things. The dependency, all right,
that we have on outside funding makes us loyal to
the funder who does not necessarily want the outcomes to
be the same as as said agency.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
Well, that that could be a catch twenty two, but
I do think that Look, if you look at some
of the faith based organizations that are operating in communities,
I mean, they aren't necessarily subject to funding from from
places that might not want people to participate, to be
(48:30):
enfranchise to participate in in their in their civic lives,
and so and and and faith based organizations are not
the only ones. It is certainly a valid concern. But
I think that's where the grassroots, at its most basic level,
(48:56):
is at its most powerful, in that they are not
necessarily so object to funding from sources that have interests
that are not the same interests as those at the
very grassroots of communities.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
Weather. I want to thank you. You are a breath
of fresh air for Cleveland, and I'm glad that you're
here and you're going to be with us. We thank
you for being with us and sharing your insights before
we go. People remember Roland Ruffin is having a fundraiser
(49:34):
for his Carolyn's Law. It's a ballot issue that he
wants to put on the ballot. In November, his wife
had brain surgery and rehabs. She fell out the bed
on her head which caused her demise, and so he
wants to increase the aid to patient ratio from one
(49:54):
to twenty to one to eight. It's called Carolyn's Law.
He's going to have a fundraiser this coming Friday evening.
For more information called area code two one six seven
zero one two three zero zero. And until next time.
This is the Rabbi saying, I will drink from my
(50:15):
part of the river and no one shall keep me
from it until next time. Shillomhable.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
This is WOVU Studios.
This is w OVU Studios.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Good afternoon people. You now listening to Black Thought. Everything
must change to inform, to inspire, and to impact. On
w o v U ninety five point nine FM. Hey, Uni,
you've had a great weekend. I know, yes, I did.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I ate well, I got some rest.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And no you're didn't you cut the grass? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yeah, I did well, he cut the grass. I swept,
But yeah, all right, all it worked out. Teamwork, make
the dream work.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
What did my love Diva do?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Oh my goodness, she's like, I don't know what's going
on RIGHTBI, but she's she's just growing like a weed.
I'm so proud. I'm so happy. She's so tall, so
so tall. Everyone thinks she's like two years elder than
what she actually is, and it's just a beautiful thing
to watch. I'm just so grateful to God. I really
(00:58):
really am.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Well, you know, I was listening to they show you
were recording just a few minutes ago, and I heard
one of the participants say that no one, you know.
I think she said something to the point that they
tell us to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, but
(01:21):
nobody gives us any boots. And I have a little
problem with that in terms of why do I have
to wait for someone to give me some boots? All right?
And I think part of our problem is that we
have a dependency on someone else always, which requires loyalty
(01:44):
on our part, okay, because if you ain't dependent, your
grit's gonna get cut off, okay, Or if you're not loyal,
your grits will be cut off okay. And so I'm
of the ilk. You know, why can't we begin to
pull some things together to develop our own boots rather
(02:08):
than waiting for someone to give us some boots. There's
a good book I read, Oh my granddaughter turned me
on to oh maybe six seven years ago? Who moved
my cheese? All right? And that's kind of that concept
where the cheese There were I think three rats, and
(02:32):
the cheese got cut off, and one rat began to cry,
you know what are we gonna do? You know, we
went out the cheese, you know, we we we we
got to make sure someone gives us some more cheese.
And they begin to you know where we're gonna get
the cheese from? Who can we pressure to give us
some more cheese? Well, the other two rats left and
(02:56):
one went a little far off and developed a little
fanism for itself, all right, so that it did not
have to depend on someone to bring some cheese. But
the third rat went into a new land and found
some new exotic cheeses that had never been experienced before,
all right. And he came back and he told the
(03:18):
second rat, okay, second miles, and the second mouse left
and went to find the land of exotic cheese. And
he went and told the first mouse, and he refused
to move. We gotta sit right here. We're gonna wait.
Somebody's got to bring us some more cheese, right And
I think that's where many of us are, that we're
(03:40):
waiting on someone to bring us some cheese rather than
going and finding the opportunity for some more exotic cheese.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
The doctor was talking about that too. She definitely was
talking about just the upliftment and building within our own
communities as well, and getting back to reading as well.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, but we need to we need to stop waiting
for someone to give it to us, all right. Natural
law says we're entitled to it, and so we have
the right to begin to build for ourselves. I don't
want to get off into that. We have a guest
in the in the studio and a wonderful person I
(04:19):
met recently her. She is formerly of the Senate Foreign
A Committee. She served the Senate Foreign A Committee under
a senator out of the state of Maryland. All right.
Her name is Heather Flynn, and she happens to be
the cousin of someone who we are familiar with. She's
(04:42):
the cousin of Sapphire who has been on the station
with us several several times. Welcome Heather, how are you today?
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Can you move in front of the mic so they
can hear you. Oh, they're not gonna hear you if
you are so far. Hey, I am good, I'm good.
I just want the people to be able to hear you.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
On today, I'm going to actually.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Have you mose to that theravice that was gone out
that one. There we go.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Wonderful. Thank you so much, Thank you so much, Rabbi,
thank you so much for the kind invitation. It's wonderful
to be here with you today.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Good to have you here. One of the things, you know,
described to our listeners exactly what did you do in
your responsibilities with the Senate Foreign Aid Committee?
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Certainly, certainly. So. As you mentioned, I was a senior
professional staff member with the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and
I held that position since November twenty fourteen, and in
that role, I was responsible for policy advice to the
(05:59):
lead Democrat on the Committee in the areas of Africa
and global health. And so our job on the Committee
is mainly to provide oversight of executive branch policies, programs,
and activities. And as you know, in the Senate there
(06:20):
are thirteen standing committees, and each of those committees is
responsible for a certain area of oversight of the executive branch.
And so our responsibilities on the Foreign Relations Committee include
advice and consent for nominees to serve as ambassadors and
(06:42):
to serve as high ranking officials in executive Branch agencies,
as well as advice and consent for treaties. And we
were and the committee remains responsible for oversight of foreign
assistance programs as well as diplomatic operations. So State Department,
(07:06):
what used to be the US Agency for International Development,
the Millennium Challenge Corporation, all the programs and activities carried
out by those agencies were the focus for the Foreign
Relations Committee.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Okay, I I want to go a little deeper into
what you're describing or sharing with us, But I have
a question in your physician, what does it feel like
to be empowered the black woman?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
Well, I will say there were days where I did
not feel very empowered, But overall, it's a job that
carries with it significant responsibility and responsibility over matters in
(07:58):
terms of how the US engage with countries that it's
no exaggeration to say were at times matters of life
and death. And so when you think about some of
the foreign assistance programs the United States carries out, it's
everything from humanitarian assistants in the wake of natural disaster
(08:23):
in the midst of conflict, to critical global health programs
including the President's Emergency Plan for HIV and AIDS. And
it's really truly a responsibility that is difficult to describe
and at the same time, maybe a bit counter intuitively
(08:50):
felt like a privilege as well to be entrusted to
carry out the responsibilities of that job.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
How did you encounter the privilege?
Speaker 3 (09:01):
How did I encounter You know, I always tell people
I got into this business through just divine intervention. I
guess my master's degree is in international relations, and as
I pursued my master's degree, I thought that I wanted
(09:22):
to be an academic, and so when I graduated, I
pursued a PhD at Georgetown University. And after some time
in the academic world, what I discovered through taking some
courses at the School of Foreign Service was that the
(09:43):
policy world was much more intriguing to me. And I
did an internship for a gentleman in the House of Representatives,
as the late Gary Ackerman, who was a member of
the House Foreign Affairs Committee, and through that work realized
(10:03):
became intrigued by the work of Congress. And I sent
a cover letter in a resume to a gentleman named
Joe Biden, because my master's degree was from the University
of Delaware and he was the ranking member on the
Senate Foreign Relations Committee at the time. And I sent
(10:28):
it to the chief of staff in his personal office,
not even the chief of staff of the committee, and
it caught his attention, and he sent it to the
chief of staff of the Committee, who just happened to
be looking for someone to cover Africa and refugee humanitarian
and foreign assistants. And long story short, I got the
(10:49):
nod okay.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
All right, Africa, Africa. I hear you all all keep
mentioning Africa. What was your experience in Africa? What did
you see? You know, we we see movies and even
(11:11):
some positive exposure every now and then, but what did
you find?
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Well, you know, it's an interesting story, and I think
as I look back, it stems from the fact that
in middle school we had courses on geography and world affairs,
and ironically, we looked at Latin America, we looked at Europe,
(11:42):
we looked at Asia, but we never had a section
on Africa. I couldn't tell you why that that is.
I could only speculate, but it was an unexplored, unrealized
area of my middle school and high school education. In
undergraduate school, I studied communication arts. I thought I wanted
(12:06):
to go into the media, and I began to be
quite dissatisfied with only reporting the news and analyzing the news,
and wanted to understand why, why events, why politics were
unfolding their way they were. And so when I went
(12:27):
to graduate school to study international relations, I decided I
wanted to focus on an area of the world that
wasn't typically covered in the media. Hadn't been part of
my academic background, and that's when I began to look
at specifically US foreign policy towards Africa. Were what informed
(12:51):
what were the motivations, what sorts of informations were decision
makers taking into account what in fluenced decision makers? And
so that began my intrigue with Africa.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Okay, and I'm assuming, in your working, assuming the responsibilities,
that you travel to Africa, Yes, okay, how many of
the African countries approximately?
Speaker 3 (13:24):
I am going to say approximately thirty. My area of
focus has always been sub Saharan Africa, meaning the countries
along the Mediterranean Maghreb. I don't have expertise in My
expertise is in the lower forty nine countries of the continent,
(13:46):
and of those probably about thirty, maybe maybe a few
more than that.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
In fact, what did you find here? What would the
living conditions, the moreys folks ways, the micro and macro economics?
If you will sure.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Sure, well, I will say that, as you can imagine,
there are vast differences between countries on the continent. Africa
is usually spoken about as an entity in and of itself,
but in fact it is a grouping of quite diverse
(14:30):
countries with diverse, diverse communities, diverse governments, diverse economies, and
so it would take it would take quite a long
time to describe them all. However, what I will say
is that really one of the one of the common
(14:55):
threads that I discovered was that the prosper of a
country was directly linked to the effectiveness of its governance.
And so many of the countries in Sub Saharan Africa
are still struggling with strong governance that is accountable to
(15:18):
the people that it purports to govern. And the weaker
the connection between the people and the government, the less
the less healthy the society is. And that can manifest
in not only its politics, but the economics of a country.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
One of the things that I'm curious about, I'm sure
UNI will have a pleathara of questions as usual. One
of the things I'm curious what is the perception of
some of the people of Africa, of Africa Americacans in
this country.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
That's it's a good question, and I think it depends
on their engagement with Americans period and through what mechanism, right,
because Americans on the on an official basis engaged through
the embassy, and so people will have contact in many
(16:25):
instances with diplomats or USAID, the Agency for International Development,
and so those might be individuals with whom Africans have
have some connection with. The Peace Corps is another Peace
Corps volunteers is another mechanism. Academics another mechanism. And I
(16:50):
think their perception of African Americans is directly related to
who they come into con tact with. And I would
say there's no real there's no real way to encapsulate
(17:11):
it in generalities. I would say that there are some
instances where I have talked to communities who knew African
Americans through their work at the Agency for International Development
and certain key programs such as the President's Emergency Plan
for AIDS Relief or PEPFAR, and the impact that that
(17:34):
program had on people's lives was so enormously profound. And
the positive impact on people's perceptions of America, the United
States African Americans is hard to overstate, actually, and there
are if you look through the you find that there
(18:00):
is still positive feeling about those institutions, those individuals, the
impact that they had on African leaders, for example, And
so I would say there's that lens and then there's
there are the people who look at current events and
are quite concerned about the condition of African Americans in
(18:24):
the United States. Maybe a good example of that might
be the news going around the world about George Floyd. Yes,
as you recall, and shocking to people here, shocking to
people abroad, including Africans, and you know some degree of
I think dismay about the treatment of the diaspora here
(18:49):
in the United States.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Similator Fulbright some years ago wrote a book called Arrogance
of Power. Okay, I would like to address that as
it relates to your Foreign Mission Committity Committee. When we
come back from the station break. You have been listening
to Black Thought. Everything must change on w o v
(19:11):
U ninety five point nine FM. We will be right back.
All right, people, you're back here with Black Thought. Everything
must change, to informed, to inspire and to impact. On
w OVU ninety five point nine FM. This is your host,
the Rabbi, along with the Black Unicorn and our special guests,
Miss Heather Flynn, who had served on the Senate Foreign
(19:36):
Aid Committee for that many years. Were before we went
to break. We were talking about Senator ful Bright's book,
The Arrogance of power. And I think there's a movie
that kind of relates to what the ugly American and
the perception of the not the non political, the non
(20:03):
policy perception of Americans and African Americans in other countries.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Yes, I I look. I think that people form perceptions,
sometimes based on fact, sometimes based on implicit bias. I
think it's it's unavoidable. I think in my in my
experience traveling in and around Africa, and and most of
(20:36):
that has been as unofficial business. And so that's one
type of engagement with Africans. You engage on the official level,
with elected officials, with with government officials, but also with
non governmental organizations, civil society, activists, media, uh and and
(21:00):
I think there is for certain, among many different groups
a perception of the United States in and of itself,
in the role that the United States plays. And one
thing that is I think quite fascinating when you engage
(21:25):
with people overseas, and I'm specifically talking about Africa, that's
where I have most of my overseas experience, there is
a perception about the relative power of the United States,
the relative influence the United States, sometimes greatly exaggerated from
what you and I would think of as US power
(21:49):
to the extent that there is. There is a perception
that I have run into when I've traveled to countries
that were in the midst of an electoral contest, that
our voice as the US was directly correlated with the
outcome of those elections. And one always hesitates to say
(22:19):
how or to diminish. I was never in a comfortable
diminishing the idea of US influencer power. But we certainly
were not as powerful as some individuals believed, and we
certainly weren't controlling the outcome of elections throughout the continent.
(22:42):
What I at our best, I think the US was
quite clear on communicating commitment to principles of a free
electoral contest, but certainly not picking the winners per se.
But there was always a present, or quite frequently I
should say, a perception that we that we did do that.
(23:04):
And you know, to an extent, if you look back
through history, there were some incidents where we were not
at our best, either in Africa or in other parts
of the world.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
I liked that we.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Yes evolved, evolved. The double V victory was was uh
was for a reason there. But certainly I like to
think that we have evolved through the years in terms
of how we engage on the continent.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
What has been your reception here in America as a
Black woman who as who was empowered and African American
black woman who was empowered and moving in those kinds
of circles.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
I would say, overall, I've had a positive experience. But
I do not discount the fact that it is still
the case that not everyone is comfortable with African Americans
in positions of authority. And I think that while it
(24:19):
is the case that people don't will will not admit
to implicit bias, all of us, all of us are
subject to implicit bias. It's not something we necessarily have
full control over. It something that we can recognize and
(24:42):
work on. And I would be it would be foolish
of me to say that that has never informed how
people have engaged. And I do think that certainly we're
hearing a lot in the news about antipathy or rejection
(25:03):
of diversity, equity and inclusion efforts. And the irony is
that I do think that there are people who think
whenever they see an African American, or for that matter,
(25:26):
a woman in a position of authority, that they assume
that it is because there was some sort of effort
at call it affirmative action, call it DEI, call it
whatever you will, that that is the reason that I
(25:50):
or anyone else was in the position that we held.
And it's still a constant battle to established ones. Bona
fitte is when one is in that in that role.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
How does that make you feel?
Speaker 3 (26:08):
It's a it's a challenge, but it makes me feel
as though I need to rise to the challenge. I
do not think that that it should be a limiting
factor for me or for anyone else. It is still
one of the things that women in the workplace have
(26:30):
to combat. It's still one of the things that people
of color have to combat. It may not be it
may not be fair, but it's life is not fair
to any of us across the board all the time.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
What should that combat look like from your perspective?
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Well, look, I think it is the case that none
of us has control over what other people think. We
just don't. And I think for me, my effort has
always been to be as prepared as I can be
(27:20):
to fulfill the responsibilities that are set before me. And
you know, there's a there's an old, old, old and
ancient proverbs, which you know talks about about being diligent
(27:40):
in all of your ways, and so I've always sought
to be diligent in all my ways.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Uni, you have a question for Heather. Okay, all right,
Oh well, we'll go to go to another break right now, UNI,
take us out of here. You have been listening to
Black Thought. Everything was changed on w o VU ninety
five point nine FM. All right, people, you're back who
had Black thought. Everything was changed to inform, to inspire
(28:08):
and impact on w o VU nine five point nine FM. Heather,
We're gonna switch a little bit here, and I want
to talk to you about the Wooly Lynch syndrome of division. Okay,
(28:29):
and Adrian Adrian Carter in his book Black Fragility talk
about black men and black women aspire towards power, recognition,
and validation of their white male and female counterparts. As
a man, the black man desires to dominate his environment, rule,
(28:54):
and bill. As a man does, however, he is subjugated
as inferior, as an inferior man to white man. The
black man is also black and thereby subjugated as an
inferior race and left vulnerable to the stereotyped tropes of
(29:15):
his race. He's left only to will power over the
black woman, who presents herself as a formal opponent opponent.
She does not intend to be his opponent. But as
both black men and black women grapple with the state
of inferiority, they attempt to gain power, recognition, validation over
(29:37):
each other. Because at no time is it permissible to
gain such advancement over the shoulders of white men and women,
even with the assistance from a neighboring race or higher
economic class a sympathizer. The temporariness and porousness leads a
(29:58):
lingering feeling of distrust. How do how do you receive that?
Was that a bit much for us to bite off
right there?
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Well, it is certainly the case. I think that it
is that that the issue of the impact of of
the history of racism merits research in terms of the
impact on black psychology and and psychological well being of
(30:31):
of African Americans. And I think that and and and
it's not as though no work has been done, but
I think continued work is worthwhile. And as we engage
with with within the African American community, with other communities,
(30:52):
I think an awareness of uh, the impact of circumstances
is certainly merited. I do think that it is. It's
it's you know, I think about former Secretary of State
Madeline Albright, and you know, she talked about there being
(31:16):
a special place in hell for women who don't support
other women, and that that principle, that concept, that theme
could just as easily be applied to how people of
color deal with one another, right, And I think sometimes
(31:39):
there's this idea that success is a zero sum game,
that there's only there's only a limited there's a finite
amount of success. There's an even more finite amount of
success for people of color, there's a finite amount of
success for women. And so your success must then necessarily
(32:04):
come at the expense of someone else's, and so it
becomes a source of it can become I would imagine,
a source of conflict if if that is what you believe.
I don't believe that success is finite. I believe that
each of us can be superlative at whatever it is
(32:24):
we do. I don't believe it has to come at
the expense of someone else. I will say that really
there's this idea that what is set aside for you
is set aside for you, and so if it's meant
to be, it will happen. And one does not have
to achieve success at the detriment of other people. And
(32:46):
in fact, it's a responsibility of each of us to
see how we can facilitate the success of other people
who may not have the same net works, or who
may not have the same access or who may not
know what we know. And the more experienced I am,
(33:11):
and the more and the broader my networks become, the
more I think of it as a responsibility for me
to be very conscious about helping people who are really
trying to step into a space where they are in
a position to fulfill whatever it is their dreams or
(33:35):
their destiny is.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
So let me let me so. Then the four hundred
years that Israel spent an Egypt was predestined.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Well, far be it from me to argue with the
theologian about predestination. That's a land land, land mine field.
I will I will not step in. But what I
will say is, in my faith tradition, all things work
to the good. And so we have these experiences that
(34:14):
may not feel that great at the time, but they
all work to the good, and so I take it
as a matter of faith. Now, not everyone shares that faith,
and not everyone would share that that philosophy, but I
do believe that in this concept of beauty for ashes
(34:36):
and that there is a plan for each of us.
And so you know, one has to participate in one's
own life. But that is that is the the the
the faith tradition that I adhere to.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Okay, I wasn't trying to get into your faith tradition,
but I was it was going to lead to if
that was true with Israel? Is it true then with
the four hundred and sixty years of abuse that we
have suffered at the hands of this country, and that
(35:15):
was that preordain? Or do we have some responsibility?
Speaker 3 (35:24):
There is no doubt that, as I said, we all
have to participate in our own lives, and we all
make decisions right that lead to lead to other decision
points right. And so whether it's four hundred and sixty
(35:44):
plus years of circumstances where where by law and by practice,
certain people did not enjoy the same rights and privileges
as other people, or another circumstance, it's up to all
of us to decide what we what we can and
(36:08):
should do as members in a society in order to
make a more perfect union. And so and so, I
don't you know, I don't think.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
That there is a.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
Way for anyone too to look at circumstances and determine
that they have nothing to do with them. Each of
us has to take some measure of responsibility to participate
in our personal life, in our civic life, to create
the society in which we want to live.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
Well, that leads me to then then there are those
who would share with us the thought that there are
people who look like us who are skillfully irresponsible and
(37:05):
willfully irresponsible. Skillful irresponsibility means that they have not been
taught to be responsible. They have not been given the
tools to be responsible. Skills all right, they don't know
how to be irresponsible, I mean responsible. Willfully irresponsible means
(37:30):
that I choose to be irresponsible, because to become responsible
means I have to give up being a victim.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Well, look, I will say this, none of us is
born knowing everything or come on now nothing and so
it did. Look stepping back, let let me say this.
The way our the way our democracy is structured, requires
(38:04):
requires each of us two be informed participants it just
it just doesn't work unless unless citizens are informed participants,
and so we each have a responsibility to play in
that are But public education has a response. We we
(38:28):
pay taxes at the local level, at the state level,
we pay federal taxes. Our education system is free and available.
It doesn't always work optimally, but that is where the
basics we learn the basics of how to be informed citizens.
(38:49):
And once you are given those basics, once you're able
to take advantage. Now we could have a long conversation
about the the the challenges in the public education sector,
but the theory is, the theory of the case is
that one has UH. One, one goes, one spends some
(39:10):
time there, One is taught about about how our country functions,
and then one makes informed decisions. One one takes time
right to educate oneself about what's happening at the local level.
Is what is happening, how are we being governed?
Speaker 2 (39:31):
UH?
Speaker 3 (39:32):
What is it? Uses takes advantage of the availability UH
through a free media to understand what decisions are being
made by elected officials and participates in that system. And
it's not a perfect system, and it hasn't been accessible
(39:53):
to all. We happen to live in a time where
a lot that has We have access to a lot
that people have fought for us to have access to.
And there's always more to learn, and there's always more
to do. But it is a responsibility that each of
us has. Some people have a greater challenge in their
(40:15):
circumstances exercising those rights and responsibility and taking advantage of
those rights than others do. But to the extent that
each of each person, each individual has access and chooses
willfully not to take advantage, well, that's to hallow all
of our detriment. Because the body politic is not healthy
(40:41):
unless citizens are making informed decisions.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
I agree with you. However, the skillfully irresponsible right does
not have the tools because philosophically, the process, the theory
all right democracy is one thing, but the practicality of it,
based on who controls right determines what information I'm given
(41:13):
so that I can be informed over and against maybe
another group who's getting I have full access on the
other group has limited access, therefore cannot skillfully be as
informed and have the tools to be responsible. Visa the
(41:34):
educational system I know here in Cleveland has been very lacking.
I don't know if we only have about six seven
minutes left. But five years ago survey was four years
ago survey was taken by Case Western Reserve, and sixty
(41:54):
six percent of the adults in Cleveland are functionally illiterate,
all right. And in some war this Ward five and
Ward seven, ninety five percent of the adults are functionally illiterate.
So how can they make an informed decision, all right
(42:16):
when they have not been given the necessary tools?
Speaker 3 (42:21):
Well, look, those are stunning statistics, absolutely stunning statistics and
very troubling. And what I would say are two things.
Number one, it is it is incumbent upon those of
us who do have the skills to advocate on behalf
(42:44):
of those who may not have them, because I think
in this in the twenty first century in the United States,
there is no excuse for any any significant amount of
illiteracy in any community. I will also say that one
(43:05):
thing that we should all think about is the fact
that if we as African Americans look back to three
four generations to our elders, they may not have had
the educational opportunities that we had, but they were still
(43:28):
able to make smart, informed decisions. And so while those
statistics are very alarming, I think it's important to realize
that we should not assume that individuals who haven't had
access in the formal sense cannot be informed and make
informed decisions. We live in an age where information is
(43:55):
quite easily accessible radio, television, where you can learn and
know things about how you are being governed that can
inform the decisions you make about who you want representing
you at any given point in time.
Speaker 2 (44:15):
And I hear you, and in the meantime, I have
the informs uh information, But I don't want anybody to
know that I can't write my name, I can't write
read the ballot, and so therefore, you know, I refuse
to participate uh uh and in this in the in
(44:38):
the theory, if you will. And that then leads me
to a frustration, all right, that I don't belong, that
I can't make a difference. Where before, uh, we had
(44:58):
so little pride think all right, that we didn't mind
going and making an ex girls we couldn't sign our names.
So yeah, is that we Is it that we're caught
up in being modern? Being twenty first century? Are we
(45:26):
so caught up in and concentrating on our invisible ache
or caught up because no one is really hearing our
pain all right, that that paralyzes us or is it,
in your opinion, something different.
Speaker 3 (45:48):
Well, it's a good question. You've uncovered quite a dilemma,
and it's I'm fascinated by your question because this is
what's interesting is that if you if you go, if
I were to, you know, be able to replay scenes
(46:11):
from trips that I've taken abroad to marginalized communities or
communities with very low literacy overseas, and how they exercise
their their democratic rights, their voting rights for the first
time in some instances, they this dilemma confronts them as well.
(46:32):
And one of one of the things that we have
going for us here in the United States is that
our our non governmental organizations, our community organizations are able
to function in a robust fashion. And this is where
this is where advocacy and community organizations step in to
(46:54):
help at the grassroots, to identify barriers that you have discussed,
and to step in and provide ways to provide help
if people are willing. Now, whether or not the psychological
ache is to profound, it's a good question. I don't know,
(47:14):
but I have to imagine that there are some people
who will be self aware enough to maybe step outside
their comfort zone to overcome that ache, to take advantage
of assistance from some of the many organizations that are
focused on helping people exercise their democratic rights.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
For me, it's a catch twenty two because we go
back to one of the opening things. The dependency, all right,
that we have on outside funding makes us loyal to
the funder who does not necessarily want the outcomes to
be the same as as said agency.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
Well, that that could be a catch twenty two, but
I do think that Look, if you look at some
of the faith based organizations that are operating in communities,
I mean, they aren't necessarily subject to funding from from
places that might not want people to participate, to be
(48:30):
enfranchise to participate in in their in their civic lives,
and so and and and faith based organizations are not
the only ones. It is certainly a valid concern. But
I think that's where the grassroots, at its most basic level,
(48:56):
is at its most powerful, in that they are not
necessarily so object to funding from sources that have interests
that are not the same interests as those at the
very grassroots of communities.
Speaker 2 (49:09):
Weather. I want to thank you. You are a breath
of fresh air for Cleveland, and I'm glad that you're
here and you're going to be with us. We thank
you for being with us and sharing your insights before
we go. People remember Roland Ruffin is having a fundraiser
(49:34):
for his Carolyn's Law. It's a ballot issue that he
wants to put on the ballot. In November, his wife
had brain surgery and rehabs. She fell out the bed
on her head which caused her demise, and so he
wants to increase the aid to patient ratio from one
(49:54):
to twenty to one to eight. It's called Carolyn's Law.
He's going to have a fundraiser this coming Friday evening.
For more information called area code two one six seven
zero one two three zero zero. And until next time.
This is the Rabbi saying, I will drink from my
(50:15):
part of the river and no one shall keep me
from it until next time. Shillomhable.
Speaker 1 (50:22):
This is WOVU Studios.
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