September 28, 2025 • 15 mins
Explores the history of Mennonite communities in Poland and Prussia, particularly from the 16th to 18th centuries. It details their migration from the Netherlands due to persecution, their settlement in the Vistula Delta and other regions, and their significant role in draining and cultivating previously unusable marshlands. The text also covers the religious tolerance (though not always full equality) they experienced under the Polish crown, their economic contributions as artisans, farmers, and merchants, and the challenges they faced regarding their pacifist beliefs and integration into society, including disputes over church dues and military service.
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You can listen and download our episodes for free on more than 10 different platforms:
https://linktr.ee/book_shelter
Get the Book now from Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Mennonites-Prussia-Anabaptist-Pietist-Studies/dp/0801891132?&linkCode=ll1&tag=cvthunderx-20&linkId=8717a35170311a3d2d278e4643a6972a&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_tl
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to another deep dive. Today we're stepping into well,
a really turbulent time, sixteenth century Europe. It's been called
the time out of Joint and you can see why.
Huge changes happening everywhere. You've got new economic systems popping up,
global trade, expanding horizons, thinkers like Erasmus Copernicus. I mean
they're challenging everything.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Absolutely. It's a period of massive upheaval intellectually economically, but
also deep religious turmoil. And the key thing to remember
is how tightly state and church were bound together.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Yeah, there wasn't really space for religious disagreement. Conformity was
pretty much the.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Law exactly, which brings us to the Anabaptists, a group
that would eventually become known as Mennonites. They were seen
as radicals, I mean they are core belief things like believers,
baptism not infant baptism.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Right, choosing faith as an adult yes.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
And rejecting state churches, refusing military service. This made them
complete nonconformists in that.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Era, and the price for that nonconformity was incredibly.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
High, brutal really across Europe they faced well, the records
show flight, expulsion, loss of property, imprisonment and death. It
was systematic. There's this chilling fact. And Anabaptist was executed
by drowning, a sort of cruel parody of their baptism
beliefs in Zurich. That was as early as fifteen twenty seven.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
And their stories their martyrdom were meticulously recorded in books
like The Marger's Mirror. It became a foundational text for them.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
It's just such a grim picture you try to imagine
living with that constant threat. So the big question for
us today, the core of this deep dive is how
does a group facing that level of persecution, I mean
just relentless pressure, how do they survive and not just survive,
but actually build communities that last for centuries. And maybe
the most surprising part, where did they find refuge?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Where was the haven?
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Exactly? And this is where our source for today, Peter J.
Classen's book Mennonites in Early modern Poland and Prussia comes in.
It reveals well, a fascinating historical paradox.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
It really and the paradox, the unexpected haven turns out
to be Poland, specifically the Commonwealth of Poland Lithuania.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Which is kind of counterintuitive isn't it, given the religious
wars tearing apart places like France and the German Lands completely.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
But Poland was different. Its political structure was unique. You
didn't have one all powerful ruler. Instead you had this
long tradition of local economy. Power was shared between the king,
the parliament, which they called the sege, the church, local governments.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
A real balancing act.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Precisely, and that balance prevented any one entity from imposing
absolute religious uniformity. So instead of total oppression, you got
this well Classen calls it a patchwork of toleration and exclusion.
It wasn't perfect, but it was different.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
And then comes this really remarkable moment fifteen seventy three.
You have to picture the context. The Saint Bartholomew's Day
massacre had just happened in France. Horrific religious violence, yeah,
a real low point. And right then the Polish Parliament
adopts the Confederation of Warsaw Exacts.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Was that it was huge, a truly sweeping declaration of
religious toleration. Think about that timing the Polish nobles the
slakta they explicitly vowed and this is key, not to
engage in war for differences of faith or church.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Wow, they committed to sorting out religious disputes with word
rather than sword in fifteen seventy three. That's pretty extraordinary,
It really.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Is, especially when you compare it to what was happening elsewhere.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
And its influence didn't stop at Poland's borders. The ideas
in the Confederation, this commitment to a kind of managed pluralism,
you can see echoes later. It influenced things like the
Dutch Union of Utrecht. Some historians even connect it, maybe
indirectly to Benjamin Franklin's thinking and even principles in the
American Declaration of Independence.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
So Poland was really pioneering this.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
You could argue it was the first large nation to
assert a policy of religious toleration, years before the Netherlands,
for instance. It wasn't necessarily born from modern liberal ideals,
but from this unique political pragmatism needed internal peace.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Okay, So this unique Polish political landscape provided the initial opening,
this unlikely space for tolerance. But what really cemented the
Mennonite's place there. It seems like it shifted from just
finding refuge to becoming well needed. That's exactly right. The
shift happens because of economics and specific local conditions. Let's
talk about the Vistula Delta.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Right the area around Danzigadance today.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yes, Danzig was a powerhouse the queen of the Baltic
It was the hub for the grain trade, essentially the
granary of Europe, shipping grain, especially to Amsterdam. But the
land itself, the Delta, was low lying, marshy, and prone
to terrible floods. There were devastating ones in fifteen forty
and fifteen forty three that just turned huge areas into
(04:46):
a watery wasteland, unusable land.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Okay, So you have this crucial port city but surrounded
by problematic land exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
And this is where the Mennonite specific skills come in.
Polish authorities, landowners, city officials, even church figures knew. The Mennonites,
many originally from the Netherlands, were experts in water engineering.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Ah the Dutch connection Dyke's canals precisely.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
They knew how to build canals, dikes and drainage ditches.
They brought Dutch windmills for pumping water. They could literally
reclaim that flooded land and make it incredibly productive farmland.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
So it was a purely pragmatic decision. These landowners thought, Okay,
maybe they're heretics, but they can fix our land problem
pretty much.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yes, economic advantage often trumped theological concerns class and points
out this great irony. Lutheran Duke Albert initially ordered Anabaptists
expelled from his territory right, but later he had to
allow exceptions because his own officials told him the Mennonites
were simply vital to the economy. Even Catholic bishops invited
(05:47):
them to settle and drain lands they owned. Their skills
were just too valuable to pass up.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
And did it pay off for the landowners.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Oh definitely. There are records like the Danzig City Council
reporting back to the King. They boasted that were their
use to be desolate acres. Thanks to the Mennonites, they
now had twenty seven rent.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Paying farms, twenty seven farms from.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Wasteland exactly, and in some places the annual income from
these newly settled lands increased sevenfold. Landowners explicitly recognized their
outstanding industry and skilled planning. It wasn't just talk, it
was visible economic transformation.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
That economic leverage must have given them a unique.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Position, absolutely crucial it translated into real privileges beyond just
being allowed to live there and practice their faith relatively freely.
They consistently got exemptions from military service.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Which was central to their beliefs.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yes, and they were even exempt from having to quarter troops,
you know, billet soldiers in their homes. King John Casimir
himself confirmed this privilege. It shows how indispensable they were
seen to be. Their economic contribution gave them bargaining power
other groups didn't have.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
So they've found this haven, they're transforming the land. How
did they actually build their communities?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
What did that look like on Well, the first thing
they always did upon settling somewhere was form a congregation.
That was paramount. Initially, meetings were very discreete you know,
in private homes, sometimes even in barns they'd cleaned out.
They didn't want to cause trouble or attract unwanted attention.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Trying to keep a low profile, right.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
But over time, as they became more established, they started
getting permission to build actual churches, though often there was
a catch. The buildings had to maintain the outward appearance
of a house, no steeples, no bells, nothing too obviously
church like. It reflected their sort of semi official status.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Interesting, so they were tolerated but not fully equal partners
in society exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
We see specific examples like a Frisian Mennonite church built
just outside Danzig's walls in sixteen thirty eight and a
Flemish one in sixteen forty eight, slowly carefully building their presence.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
You mentioned toleration, not equality. What were some of the
ongoing challenges they faced even in Poland.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Well, citizenship was a big one, especially in power powerful
cities like Danzig. They were often denied full citizenship rights,
sometimes right up until around eighteen.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Hundred, and the main reason was.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Primarily their refusal to bear arms. That military obligation was
usually tied to citizenship. And then there were the trade guilds.
They saw Mennonite craftsmen as competition in tough economic times.
The guilds would sometimes lobby hard and occasionally succeeded in
getting Mennonites barred from certain trades. So it wasn't always
smooth sailing. Their status was always something that had to.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Be negotiated, and negotiation sometimes involved well money.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Oh, definitely. There is a fantastic story class and tells
from seventeen twenty eight, the Mennonites in the Danzig Verter,
that low lying agricultural area, wanted to build a bigger church.
They needed permission from the local Catholic bishop, Felix Krakowski,
and surprisingly, he grants it. He even tells the local
Catholic priests who had been bothering the Mennonites during their services,
(08:54):
to knock it off.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
That sounds remarkably supportive.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
It does, right, But here's the kicker. The actual construction
of the church cost about two thousand florins. The payments
they had to make to the bishop and the Catholic
hierarchy just for the permission four thousand florins.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Double the cost of the building itself exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
So, yes, permission granted, even protection offered, but toleration clearly
came at a very steep price. Financial persuasion was definitely
part of the equation.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Wow. So beyond dealing with the outside world, how strong
were their internal communities?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Incredibly strong? That was another key to their survival. They
set up mutual aid systems. Given the constant threat of
floods and fires in the Delta, this was essential. For example,
they formed a fire insurance association in a place called
Tigenhoff way back in sixteen twenty three, and amazingly it
survived right up until World War II for centuries almost
(09:48):
They also built hospices for the poor within their communities,
funded by contributions from church members. It was a very practical,
caring faith, and this practical piety, this kindness actually attracted converts.
Sometimes people from other backgrounds would join, citing the Mennonite's
way of life the help they'd received, even though excepting
converts could sometimes get Mennonite ministers.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Fined, so that internal solidarity was just as important as the.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
External tolerance, absolutely fundamental.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Okay, let's move forward in time. This relatively stable situation
in Poland eventually changes drastically, right with the partitions of
Poland in the late eighteenth century.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yes, the partitions seventeen seventy two, seventeen ninety three, seventeen
ninety five completely redraw the map. Most of the areas
where Mennonites had settled now fall under Prussian.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Rule, and Prussia had a different approach to statehood, particularly
regarding the military, a.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Very different approach. Prussia was a highly militarized state. This
immediately created tension around the Mennonite's long standing exemption from
military service.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
How did the Prussian state handle that? Did they just
revoke the privilege?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Not immediately? It was more complex. King Frederick the Great
initially actually confirmed their exemption in seventeen eighty with a
Charter of Liberties, but only for lands they are held.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Uh So any new land they acquired.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Came with military obligations attached. The pressure started to build
under later Prussian kings. It intensified. Young Mennonite men started
getting summoned to review boards just to prove they were
actually eligible for the exemption. The state was tightening its grip.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
This must have caused debates within the Mennonite community, too.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Huge debates. It forced them to re examine their position.
You have figures like Hermann von Beckerath, a prominent Mennonite
from Craefeld, arguing at the Frankfort Parliament in eighteen forty eight.
He argued passionately for full equality with other citizens, even
suggesting Mennonites should voluntarily give up the military exemption to
(11:42):
show they were committed members of the state. He felt
special privileges weren't compatible with equal rights.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
That's a pretty radical shift from their historical.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Stance it is, but then ironically, Classen notes that many
Mennonites back in the Vistiala Delta felt the opposite. They
actually thought they'd be better off under a strong king
who might protect their traditional privileges, rather than in a
more democratic system where the majority might vote to take
those privileges away.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
So real internal conflict over how to.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Adapt definitely, which leads to a really significant development. Around
eighteen seventy, the official Mennonite stance on pacifism begins to
well adapt. They still affirmed that war is fundamentally wrong.
You know, all war rises because of sin. It's a
great evil. But their statement then allowed for free choice
regarding military service.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Free choice so individuals could decide to serve.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Essentially yes, or they suggested alternative forms of service, non
combatant roles like transporting supplies, providing medical assistance, working in offices,
or contributing to economic production to support the state. It
was a pragmatic compromise, trying to balance their core pacifist
ethic with the undeniable demands of the modern Prussian state.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
So what was the ultimate outcome of all.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
This pressure emigration? For many faced with the increasing pressure
and the eventual complete abolition of their military exemption in
the unified German Empire, large numbers decided to leave. Starting
in the early nineteenth century, you see major waves of immigration.
Many went east to New Russia modern Ukraine, invited by
(13:13):
the Tsarist government ironically offering privileges similar to what they
once had in Poland. The Malachna colony there became the
largest Mennonite settlement in the world for.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
A time, and others went west.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yes, significant numbers emigrated to North America, particularly the United
States and Canada, seeking land and the freedom to practice
their faith without state interference, especially regarding military service. It
was another chapter in their long search for refuge.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
It's quite a journey when you lay it all out
four centuries in this region.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
It really is extraordinary. From these persecuted refugees finding an
unlikely welcome in Poland becoming these crucial economic engines, transforming
the landscape through sheer, hard work and skill. Their story
is one of incredible resilience, strong community bonds, and this
constant ongoing negotiation between their faith principles and the demands
(14:02):
of the states they lived under. Adapting, compromising, but trying
to hold on to their core identity and.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
The end of their story in that specific region, the
Vistiala delta is quite abrupt and tragic.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yes, World War Two effectively brought their four hundred year
presence there to an end. Churches were destroyed in the fighting,
and in the aftermath thousands fled or were expelled. Along
with other ethnic Germans. They scattered to West Germany, Canada,
South America. A very sudden end to centuries of history.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
But the legacy remains, doesn't it. This whole story really
highlights that fundamental tension between individual conscience or community's conscience
and the power and demands of the state. So as
we wrap up, maybe something for you, the listener, to
think about. Reflecting on this long Mennonite journey, their adaptations,
the compromises, made, the lines they held. What does it
make you consider about how communities or even individuals navigate
(14:52):
those times when deeply held beliefs clash with what society
of the state demands. How do people adapt or choose
not to something to ponder. Thank you for joining us
on this deep dive
Welcome back to another deep dive. Today we're stepping into well,
a really turbulent time, sixteenth century Europe. It's been called
the time out of Joint and you can see why.
Huge changes happening everywhere. You've got new economic systems popping up,
global trade, expanding horizons, thinkers like Erasmus Copernicus. I mean
they're challenging everything.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Absolutely. It's a period of massive upheaval intellectually economically, but
also deep religious turmoil. And the key thing to remember
is how tightly state and church were bound together.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Yeah, there wasn't really space for religious disagreement. Conformity was
pretty much the.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Law exactly, which brings us to the Anabaptists, a group
that would eventually become known as Mennonites. They were seen
as radicals, I mean they are core belief things like believers,
baptism not infant baptism.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Right, choosing faith as an adult yes.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
And rejecting state churches, refusing military service. This made them
complete nonconformists in that.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Era, and the price for that nonconformity was incredibly.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
High, brutal really across Europe they faced well, the records
show flight, expulsion, loss of property, imprisonment and death. It
was systematic. There's this chilling fact. And Anabaptist was executed
by drowning, a sort of cruel parody of their baptism
beliefs in Zurich. That was as early as fifteen twenty seven.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
And their stories their martyrdom were meticulously recorded in books
like The Marger's Mirror. It became a foundational text for them.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
It's just such a grim picture you try to imagine
living with that constant threat. So the big question for
us today, the core of this deep dive is how
does a group facing that level of persecution, I mean
just relentless pressure, how do they survive and not just survive,
but actually build communities that last for centuries. And maybe
the most surprising part, where did they find refuge?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Where was the haven?
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Exactly? And this is where our source for today, Peter J.
Classen's book Mennonites in Early modern Poland and Prussia comes in.
It reveals well, a fascinating historical paradox.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
It really and the paradox, the unexpected haven turns out
to be Poland, specifically the Commonwealth of Poland Lithuania.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Which is kind of counterintuitive isn't it, given the religious
wars tearing apart places like France and the German Lands completely.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
But Poland was different. Its political structure was unique. You
didn't have one all powerful ruler. Instead you had this
long tradition of local economy. Power was shared between the king,
the parliament, which they called the sege, the church, local governments.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
A real balancing act.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Precisely, and that balance prevented any one entity from imposing
absolute religious uniformity. So instead of total oppression, you got
this well Classen calls it a patchwork of toleration and exclusion.
It wasn't perfect, but it was different.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
And then comes this really remarkable moment fifteen seventy three.
You have to picture the context. The Saint Bartholomew's Day
massacre had just happened in France. Horrific religious violence, yeah,
a real low point. And right then the Polish Parliament
adopts the Confederation of Warsaw Exacts.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Was that it was huge, a truly sweeping declaration of
religious toleration. Think about that timing the Polish nobles the
slakta they explicitly vowed and this is key, not to
engage in war for differences of faith or church.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Wow, they committed to sorting out religious disputes with word
rather than sword in fifteen seventy three. That's pretty extraordinary,
It really.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Is, especially when you compare it to what was happening elsewhere.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
And its influence didn't stop at Poland's borders. The ideas
in the Confederation, this commitment to a kind of managed pluralism,
you can see echoes later. It influenced things like the
Dutch Union of Utrecht. Some historians even connect it, maybe
indirectly to Benjamin Franklin's thinking and even principles in the
American Declaration of Independence.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
So Poland was really pioneering this.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
You could argue it was the first large nation to
assert a policy of religious toleration, years before the Netherlands,
for instance. It wasn't necessarily born from modern liberal ideals,
but from this unique political pragmatism needed internal peace.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Okay, So this unique Polish political landscape provided the initial opening,
this unlikely space for tolerance. But what really cemented the
Mennonite's place there. It seems like it shifted from just
finding refuge to becoming well needed. That's exactly right. The
shift happens because of economics and specific local conditions. Let's
talk about the Vistula Delta.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Right the area around Danzigadance today.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yes, Danzig was a powerhouse the queen of the Baltic
It was the hub for the grain trade, essentially the
granary of Europe, shipping grain, especially to Amsterdam. But the
land itself, the Delta, was low lying, marshy, and prone
to terrible floods. There were devastating ones in fifteen forty
and fifteen forty three that just turned huge areas into
(04:46):
a watery wasteland, unusable land.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Okay, So you have this crucial port city but surrounded
by problematic land exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
And this is where the Mennonite specific skills come in.
Polish authorities, landowners, city officials, even church figures knew. The Mennonites,
many originally from the Netherlands, were experts in water engineering.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Ah the Dutch connection Dyke's canals precisely.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
They knew how to build canals, dikes and drainage ditches.
They brought Dutch windmills for pumping water. They could literally
reclaim that flooded land and make it incredibly productive farmland.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
So it was a purely pragmatic decision. These landowners thought, Okay,
maybe they're heretics, but they can fix our land problem
pretty much.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yes, economic advantage often trumped theological concerns class and points
out this great irony. Lutheran Duke Albert initially ordered Anabaptists
expelled from his territory right, but later he had to
allow exceptions because his own officials told him the Mennonites
were simply vital to the economy. Even Catholic bishops invited
(05:47):
them to settle and drain lands they owned. Their skills
were just too valuable to pass up.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
And did it pay off for the landowners.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Oh definitely. There are records like the Danzig City Council
reporting back to the King. They boasted that were their
use to be desolate acres. Thanks to the Mennonites, they
now had twenty seven rent.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Paying farms, twenty seven farms from.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Wasteland exactly, and in some places the annual income from
these newly settled lands increased sevenfold. Landowners explicitly recognized their
outstanding industry and skilled planning. It wasn't just talk, it
was visible economic transformation.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
That economic leverage must have given them a unique.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Position, absolutely crucial it translated into real privileges beyond just
being allowed to live there and practice their faith relatively freely.
They consistently got exemptions from military service.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Which was central to their beliefs.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yes, and they were even exempt from having to quarter troops,
you know, billet soldiers in their homes. King John Casimir
himself confirmed this privilege. It shows how indispensable they were
seen to be. Their economic contribution gave them bargaining power
other groups didn't have.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
So they've found this haven, they're transforming the land. How
did they actually build their communities?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
What did that look like on Well, the first thing
they always did upon settling somewhere was form a congregation.
That was paramount. Initially, meetings were very discreete you know,
in private homes, sometimes even in barns they'd cleaned out.
They didn't want to cause trouble or attract unwanted attention.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Trying to keep a low profile, right.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
But over time, as they became more established, they started
getting permission to build actual churches, though often there was
a catch. The buildings had to maintain the outward appearance
of a house, no steeples, no bells, nothing too obviously
church like. It reflected their sort of semi official status.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Interesting, so they were tolerated but not fully equal partners
in society exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
We see specific examples like a Frisian Mennonite church built
just outside Danzig's walls in sixteen thirty eight and a
Flemish one in sixteen forty eight, slowly carefully building their presence.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
You mentioned toleration, not equality. What were some of the
ongoing challenges they faced even in Poland.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Well, citizenship was a big one, especially in power powerful
cities like Danzig. They were often denied full citizenship rights,
sometimes right up until around eighteen.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Hundred, and the main reason was.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Primarily their refusal to bear arms. That military obligation was
usually tied to citizenship. And then there were the trade guilds.
They saw Mennonite craftsmen as competition in tough economic times.
The guilds would sometimes lobby hard and occasionally succeeded in
getting Mennonites barred from certain trades. So it wasn't always
smooth sailing. Their status was always something that had to.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Be negotiated, and negotiation sometimes involved well money.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Oh, definitely. There is a fantastic story class and tells
from seventeen twenty eight, the Mennonites in the Danzig Verter,
that low lying agricultural area, wanted to build a bigger church.
They needed permission from the local Catholic bishop, Felix Krakowski,
and surprisingly, he grants it. He even tells the local
Catholic priests who had been bothering the Mennonites during their services,
(08:54):
to knock it off.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
That sounds remarkably supportive.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
It does, right, But here's the kicker. The actual construction
of the church cost about two thousand florins. The payments
they had to make to the bishop and the Catholic
hierarchy just for the permission four thousand florins.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Double the cost of the building itself exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
So, yes, permission granted, even protection offered, but toleration clearly
came at a very steep price. Financial persuasion was definitely
part of the equation.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Wow. So beyond dealing with the outside world, how strong
were their internal communities?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Incredibly strong? That was another key to their survival. They
set up mutual aid systems. Given the constant threat of
floods and fires in the Delta, this was essential. For example,
they formed a fire insurance association in a place called
Tigenhoff way back in sixteen twenty three, and amazingly it
survived right up until World War II for centuries almost
(09:48):
They also built hospices for the poor within their communities,
funded by contributions from church members. It was a very practical,
caring faith, and this practical piety, this kindness actually attracted converts.
Sometimes people from other backgrounds would join, citing the Mennonite's
way of life the help they'd received, even though excepting
converts could sometimes get Mennonite ministers.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Fined, so that internal solidarity was just as important as the.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
External tolerance, absolutely fundamental.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Okay, let's move forward in time. This relatively stable situation
in Poland eventually changes drastically, right with the partitions of
Poland in the late eighteenth century.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yes, the partitions seventeen seventy two, seventeen ninety three, seventeen
ninety five completely redraw the map. Most of the areas
where Mennonites had settled now fall under Prussian.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Rule, and Prussia had a different approach to statehood, particularly
regarding the military, a.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Very different approach. Prussia was a highly militarized state. This
immediately created tension around the Mennonite's long standing exemption from
military service.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
How did the Prussian state handle that? Did they just
revoke the privilege?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Not immediately? It was more complex. King Frederick the Great
initially actually confirmed their exemption in seventeen eighty with a
Charter of Liberties, but only for lands they are held.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Uh So any new land they acquired.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Came with military obligations attached. The pressure started to build
under later Prussian kings. It intensified. Young Mennonite men started
getting summoned to review boards just to prove they were
actually eligible for the exemption. The state was tightening its grip.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
This must have caused debates within the Mennonite community, too.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Huge debates. It forced them to re examine their position.
You have figures like Hermann von Beckerath, a prominent Mennonite
from Craefeld, arguing at the Frankfort Parliament in eighteen forty eight.
He argued passionately for full equality with other citizens, even
suggesting Mennonites should voluntarily give up the military exemption to
(11:42):
show they were committed members of the state. He felt
special privileges weren't compatible with equal rights.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
That's a pretty radical shift from their historical.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Stance it is, but then ironically, Classen notes that many
Mennonites back in the Vistiala Delta felt the opposite. They
actually thought they'd be better off under a strong king
who might protect their traditional privileges, rather than in a
more democratic system where the majority might vote to take
those privileges away.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
So real internal conflict over how to.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Adapt definitely, which leads to a really significant development. Around
eighteen seventy, the official Mennonite stance on pacifism begins to
well adapt. They still affirmed that war is fundamentally wrong.
You know, all war rises because of sin. It's a
great evil. But their statement then allowed for free choice
regarding military service.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Free choice so individuals could decide to serve.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Essentially yes, or they suggested alternative forms of service, non
combatant roles like transporting supplies, providing medical assistance, working in offices,
or contributing to economic production to support the state. It
was a pragmatic compromise, trying to balance their core pacifist
ethic with the undeniable demands of the modern Prussian state.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
So what was the ultimate outcome of all.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
This pressure emigration? For many faced with the increasing pressure
and the eventual complete abolition of their military exemption in
the unified German Empire, large numbers decided to leave. Starting
in the early nineteenth century, you see major waves of immigration.
Many went east to New Russia modern Ukraine, invited by
(13:13):
the Tsarist government ironically offering privileges similar to what they
once had in Poland. The Malachna colony there became the
largest Mennonite settlement in the world for.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
A time, and others went west.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Yes, significant numbers emigrated to North America, particularly the United
States and Canada, seeking land and the freedom to practice
their faith without state interference, especially regarding military service. It
was another chapter in their long search for refuge.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
It's quite a journey when you lay it all out
four centuries in this region.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
It really is extraordinary. From these persecuted refugees finding an
unlikely welcome in Poland becoming these crucial economic engines, transforming
the landscape through sheer, hard work and skill. Their story
is one of incredible resilience, strong community bonds, and this
constant ongoing negotiation between their faith principles and the demands
(14:02):
of the states they lived under. Adapting, compromising, but trying
to hold on to their core identity and.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
The end of their story in that specific region, the
Vistiala delta is quite abrupt and tragic.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yes, World War Two effectively brought their four hundred year
presence there to an end. Churches were destroyed in the fighting,
and in the aftermath thousands fled or were expelled. Along
with other ethnic Germans. They scattered to West Germany, Canada,
South America. A very sudden end to centuries of history.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
But the legacy remains, doesn't it. This whole story really
highlights that fundamental tension between individual conscience or community's conscience
and the power and demands of the state. So as
we wrap up, maybe something for you, the listener, to
think about. Reflecting on this long Mennonite journey, their adaptations,
the compromises, made, the lines they held. What does it
make you consider about how communities or even individuals navigate
(14:52):
those times when deeply held beliefs clash with what society
of the state demands. How do people adapt or choose
not to something to ponder. Thank you for joining us
on this deep dive
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