August 25, 2025 • 41 mins
Imagine a band so raw, so revolutionary, that they could redefine punk and hardcore without most people ever knowing their name. Die Kreuzen wasn't just another local punk band - they were musical alchemists who transformed underground rock in ways most musicians could only dream about. In this episode, author Sahan Jayasuriya takes us through the band's origins, sonic evolution, and massive influence on the forthcoming 90s alt-rock/grunge rock movement of the 90s.
Purchase a copy of Don't Say Please ― The Oral History of Die Kreuzen
Follow Sahan Jayasuriya's 'Don't Say Please' page on Instagram
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The Booked On Rock Music: “Whoosh” by Crowander / “Last Train North” & “No Mercy” by TrackTribe
Purchase a copy of Don't Say Please ― The Oral History of Die Kreuzen
Follow Sahan Jayasuriya's 'Don't Say Please' page on Instagram
----------
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The Booked On Rock Store
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Follow The Booked On Rock with Eric Senich:
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X
Find Your Nearest Independent Bookstore
Contact The Booked On Rock Podcast: thebookedonrockpodcast@gmail.com
The Booked On Rock Music: “Whoosh” by Crowander / “Last Train North” & “No Mercy” by TrackTribe
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On this episode of Booked on Rock, the story of
one of the most influential bands in punk, metal and
alternative rock, The Story of De Creutzen, with author Sahan
Jayas Soria.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
We're totally bum rock and roll.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
I mean, I'll leave you. You're reading Little hens says,
it's time to.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Rock and roll. Roll up, we are totally booked. Welcome
back to book dot Rock, the podcast for those about
to read and rock on Eric Sanitch. This episode's guest
is Sahan Jai Soria, the author of Don't Say Please,
The Oral History of De Creuzen. Sahan, thanks for being here.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Thanks for having me right.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
This is a book that was ten years in the making.
Tell us how it came together. And you just spoke
to so many people, including all the members of the band.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Yeah, I think I started probably officially. I started the
book ten years ago, and I didn't have any publisher involved,
and it was just kind of this thing that I
was doing because I felt like this is a really
important band for my city. It was clearly very influential,
and I just wanted to tell their story and just
kind of share it with anyone, not only the people
(01:08):
who are fans of them. But hopefully, you know, expose
their music to you know.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
A whole new aud some of the listeners.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
And kind of the more research I did, the more
I realized that they had pretty sizable following amongst you know,
pretty prominent musicians. So over time I just kind of
kept reaching out to people and and just setting on
my own interviews, and you know, next thing I knew it,
it was like seven years in, and you know, I'm
still like, am I done?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Am I not done?
Speaker 3 (01:38):
And when Farrel House got involved, that's when they were like, Okay,
I think you're a pretty good place now you should
you know, finish instead of just keep going. So they're
kind of the ones who really got me to focus
and and and kind of pare it down and edit
it into the form that you see at the end
of the day.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
One of the many people you spoke with was which Vig,
legendary producer who produced the band's albums, and he said,
quote de Kreutz and or one of those bands that
influenced a thousand other bands that went on to have
huge success. Why they didn't have the same level of
success as something we'll get into a little bit more,
but interesting, I'm interested in finding out how you discovered
this band, it was that you were working at a
(02:19):
record store, I believe right right.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
I was working at a legendary record shop.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
In Milwaukee that's no longer around, called Atomic Records, and
my boss at the time, they gave me a copy
of their first sevenence just to like check out, and
he knew I was into hardcore, and I didn't really
know him as someone as being into hardcore, so I
didn't really expect much of it, honestly, and when I
took it home, it just blew me away.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I was just like, I was not prepared for it.
And I think one of.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
The reasons that really blew me away is it didn't
really sound like anything else I had heard at that time,
and I'd heard a lot of hardcore, but there was
a lot of elements about it that just didn't make
sense to me in terms of like the time that
it was being made, so like the vocals were way
more aggressive, the music was a lot tighter it.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
It was just a different thing.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
And then you know, the more that I kind of listen,
the more questions I had, And I think me discovering
their music more is also what kind of led me
to eventually wanting to write a book because I had
so many questions that I just wanted to have answered myself.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Right.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
But you know, as they evolved, you know, they made
this amazing debut album that's just like straight ahead, super fast,
super tight hardcore, and it's pretty much like among that crowd,
it's like universally lauded. Like it's just it's one of
those hardcore records that most people can just agree on.
Everyone loves it. And the problem with doing something like
(03:41):
that is, like, where do you go from there? When
you make this thing that people love so much? Like
if there's no way that you could follow it up
with a you know, a better version of that, right,
so you have to do something different. And so they
started to explore other styles of music, and it's just
it wasn't a conscious decision on their part.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
They just evolved.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Based on what they were into, both like the stuff
that they grew up with because they were really into
you know, prog stuff when they were younger, and also
like the post punk stuff and things like you know,
Brian Eno and Wire. But there's newer influences as that
were coming into the fold for them because they were
really into like the forty D Records bands and just
the kind of UK post punk thing, just stuff like
(04:22):
Sisters of Mercy and uh like the Fordy stuff, you
know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
And bands like The Birthday Party too, for sure.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
And that was kind of coloring their sound. But they're
coming from hardcore. So when you you know, come those
two things, you're gonna get something that stay different. But
you know, over time, I think some people got those
records and some people didn't. And so when you know,
I just kept like kind of digging into their catalog
and it was just sort of like I've called them
sort of like the proto everything banned for nineties alt rock,
(04:51):
because their catalog really does show a very very broad
range of what was happening in the under ground in
both in I guess in the America and in UK
at least in their influence. It just covers such a
broad range of like eighties eighties underground guitar music, and
(05:12):
you know that was those records were super influential for
a lot of other artists who went on to achieve
greater or much greater success in the following decade.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Let's talk about the band's origins. You write, quote it's
debatable whether de Crouzon could have ever happened at any
other time or in any other place besides the American
Midwest during the nineteen eighties. So give us the wind.
Where in the how the band comes together? If you
could the four guys, they all grew up in the
right place, right time.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I'd say so. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Half of the band has origins in Rockford, Illinois. Most
people might know that as being the hometown of Cheap Trick.
And then the other half were from Brookfield, Wisconsin, which
is a suburb of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and vocalist Dan Kubinsky
Brian Agnes where the two guys who were came from Rockford.
They were in previously called the Stella's, and the Stella's
(06:08):
moved up to Milwaukee, and you know, they quickly realized
they didn't have a drummer when they moved there, so
they asked their friend Keith Bramer if he knew anyone.
He's like, well, I happened to know somebody's a really
great drummer who was drummer Eric Tunison. So he came
into the fold, and not long after he joined the band.
They kind of realized that their basis at the time,
they just weren't really they weren't really feeling it wasn't
(06:30):
a good fit. And then they asked Keith to join
the band. So then when they settle in that line up,
not long after they changed their name from the Stella's
to Decroitzen, and that was I believe at sometime in
nineteen eighty one, this is when they changed the name
to Decroitzen.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
They were into a broad range of music, which you
did talk about. There are some they were fans of
the classic rock bands like Kiss, cec Are, Zeppelin, ac Aerosmith.
There's a letter that bassist Keith wrote to Circus Magazine
that's in the book. He was a defender of Zeppelin,
Kiss Angel, and Aerosmith. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that
I learned, you know, like I came up listening to
punk and hardcore. You know, I'm I'm almost forty, I'll
be turning forty in October.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
So the classic rock.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Thing was not really anything that I really paid much
attention to as a young kid.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
I loved Queen. I was a huge Queen fan.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
But you know, some of the other bands maybe just
they didn't really connect with me, And it wasn't really
until later in life that like, especially like the glam
stuff that.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Really resonated with me.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
And I think they came from really liking a lot
of seventies punk, but a lot of the classic rock
stuff didn't resonate with me. And I think it's because
I had other, you know, punk things to listen to.
But the thing that I learned in researching this book
and just reading about this period in general, is a
lot of people who listened to punkin hardcore bands.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Of course, they.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Weren't listening to punk and hardcore because they were helping
invent it. So they were listening to the heaviest music available,
and the heaviest available was like hard rock and classic rock,
you know. And so many people you know who are
like kind of gen X age group, they you know,
Kiss was a big deal for them.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
It was like.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
A early early influence because it was just like it
was made for teenage kids. You know, they look like
cartoon characters. You know, it's just guitar solos and flamethrowers.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
And pinball machines.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
It makes so much sense for a certain a person
of a certain age at a certain time to be
a kiss fan, right, So all those things were just like,
you know, the edgiest, you know, like gnarliest thing available.
And I think so many people who went on to
play and punk and hardcore bands definitely did their time
(08:39):
listening to you know, classic rock and them and that stuff.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I mean around sweet and slight. But all that stuff
is great, you know.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I think it's interesting. And reading a lot about grunge
bands and how much they were influenced by early Aerosmith
and Black Sabbath, I hear that often early Smith and
Black Sabbath.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Yeah, well, I mean the early Aerosmith records are pretty
pretty cool. I mean, especially you know, the vocalist for
Decoys and Day Kebinsky. He cites Stephen Tyler as a
huge influence. When he first told me that in person,
years before I was writing the book, I was just like,
I wasn't expecting it, because again I didn't realize that
some of these like people who listen who made punk
and hardcore were listening to classic rock.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
But I was thinking about it. I was like, well,
you think about the end of dream On, where.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
He's really pushing his voice into like screaming territory. I'm like, oh,
that makes sense, you know, but yeah, I mean the
grunge bands. I mean, Kirk Kobaane is a huge fan
of like a record like Rocks by Aerosmith.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
He loved that record.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
You know, Yeah, it's dirty, it's it's it's grungy.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Yeah, totally, you know, I mean the drum sound of
that record rules. That's a great record. I'm not like
the world's biggest Aerosmith fan, but they have some records
I definitely dig, for sure.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
But at some point in the mid seventies, punk rock
enters the scene and that has a huge impact on
the guys, especially Keith. He was the first guy in
town to talk about punk. According to drummer Eric Tunison,
so Keith was the guy that knew punk.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Everyone has that friend I think who is just like
so rabbit about music, and they're just like the one
who's always like on the thing right as it's happening.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You know.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
At a certain age, I was definitely that guy with
my friends. And you know, I still am theo that
guy to some degree, but definitely in my teen years
it's like I knew you know about you know, whatever
new band or whoever's new record, like as you know
it was just it was It was so important to me.
It still is important to me. But there's that one
person who's kind of like the town crier or something,
right like they they're the one who informs all their friends.
(10:36):
They are the ones who's making the mixtapes and you
know all that. And I think Keith is definitely that
guy for for that friend group for sure. And he
you know, he was the one who got all the
early singles and buying you know, the Clash record on
Import and you know all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
There was a point when the Stella sound evolved into
something new, and this is around nineteen eighty one. They
would become known for their their speed early on. What
inspired that increased tempo and energy?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
I think the speed thing definitely had.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
There was a couple of records that was contributing to that,
and I think like Group Sex by the Circle.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Jerks was a big one for a lot of people.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
I think that that record came out pretty early on
and it was pretty fast for the time. Also, like
the early Bad Brain stuff was pretty fast. Some of
the early Dead Kennedy stuff was getting fast. So the
temples were just being pushed and I think people were
just kinda.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I don't want to say like.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Necessarily following the leader, but I just think it was
just like it was just the.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Thing to do. It was like.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
That's how you that's how you made your music more intense,
you know what I mean, Like the temp just made
it like just gnarlier and heavier. So I think that
was like the whole It was just the thing that
people were doing. And I'm almost like I hesitate to
use the word like in style, but it's just kind
of it was just what was happening at the time,
(12:01):
you know. And it was if you if you could
play faster, that was like, oh, like they're fast, like
that was that was definitely kind of a uh something
something to admire, you know. And so you know, Ducrotzen
were just kind of following like those bands and bands
like da and it was just like a thing was
like okay, like let's just try and speed it up
(12:23):
a little bit, you know, because it's it's one thing
to be.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Fast and slot.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
You know, that's fine, that's its own thing. I'm not
going to name any names. There's bands and I love that,
but like when you're fast and tight, that's it's different.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
That's a different thing and and and.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
That shows that like these guys practice, right, So I
think that was just things they were just like they
push the tempos a little bit, push the temples a
little bit. Because I have like an old live performances
Stella has been released, you know, not a lot of
people have it, and there's some songs that ended up
(12:59):
on the first Decroits and record that are played at
like by comparison, they sound mid tempo, you know, and
you can kind of make out the rips a little
bit better because they're not played at like breakneck speed.
But it's like it's really cool to hear and it's
just oh, like they were like there's you know, there's
early footage of the Bad Brands playing like Attitude and
they're like wearing suits and it's pretty mid tempo, you know.
(13:21):
And then you listen to like, you know, the like
the Black Dots and it's a little bit faster, and
they listen to the Roar Cassette and it's a little
bit faster. And then by the time you get to
like Rock for Light, they've shaved on songs that's gotten
so bad. I don't necessarily think there were This is
like following other bands that we want to be like them,
you know, because like there's this thing that I've heard
(13:44):
other people talk about. There's an artist was a rapper,
Fante Coleman. He's a groupole little brother. He talks about
like this sort of phases of being influenced. It says
like imitation, inspiration, and innovation, right, And imitation is like
I want to be like black Flag, right, And then
inspiration is like I am like inspired by Black Flag.
(14:07):
I'm making music that's inspired by Black Flag. And then
innovation is like black Flag has pushed me to I mean,
I guess like the creativity and my love of Black
Flag has pushed me to innovate something something else completely right,
And a lot of people don't get to the third stage,
(14:27):
you know, a lot of that.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
There's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
You can hear bands, and you can hear like, oh
you're kind of doing this, and you're kind of doing that,
you know, you listen to the Strokes, and you can
hear television, right.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah, but it doesn't really matter because they're good, right.
But it takes a special group of people to really
get that.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Third state of well, I want to kind of do
my own thing and de Crouzen got to that point
for sure.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
So han Jayasuria is the author of Don't Say Please,
The Oral History of Decreutz, And let's talk about the
name change to De Kreutzen October of nineteen eighty one.
That happened. How did they come up with that name
and what does it mean?
Speaker 2 (15:04):
So it's from this kind of conflicting accounts.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Some people say it's a German German language Bible, some
people say it was just a German book. I just
kind of bring them all up at the same song,
because I've never really given a straight answer.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
But Diane who came.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Up with that name, and then she's like, Yay, I'm
gonna start this band called de Crozon And then or
either she didn't or whatever, but they they just they
ended up with the name.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
It's a cool name, man, you gotta admit it's it's mysterious.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
It's it's great. It's definitely not always pronounced. If I
had a penny for every time someone said Mike Cruising,
you know, d cruiser. Yeah, but it's uh, technically it's
the spelling doesn't translate perfectly to something, but it technically
is either like the sign of the Cross, or like crossing,
like the crossing, I guess, or even to some people,
(15:55):
I guess it's like the crosses. But it fucking looks.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Great, Yes, looks great at record cover.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
I mean, I mean, if you get that, I mean,
you don't need to think about it anymore.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Booked on Rock podcasts will be back after this. During
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(16:29):
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It's all at booked on Rock dot com. Lyrically, let's
(16:50):
talk lyrics now. So Dan Kovinski he avoided addressing politics,
which wasn't the norm for punk and hardcore bands. Talk
about his lyrics and how he preferred also listener to
assign whatever meaning they wished to his songs, and I
believe in the future albums he didn't want the lyrics printed.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Yeah, after the first record in nineteen eighty four, they
just consciously didn't print lyric sheets. And I think Dan
had said, you know, I'm paraphrasing him, but to the
fact of he just kind of preferred the listener just
you know, it hacked me songs, right, And as you know,
the music changed. You know, the music also kind of
(17:29):
I think, just had a little bit more of like
an emotional heft to it. And so when you're making
music that's kind of that emotionally heavy, it's pretty easy
to you know, attach whatever meaning you want to it, right.
I mean, that's something Ram did too. In the early days.
They didn't print their lyrics sheets. And you know, people
always talk about how like the vocals were mixed really low,
and Michael Stipe's voice was kind of like mumbling a
(17:50):
little bit. So you know, a lot of people didn't
know what the lyrics were. And in the case of
de Kreitzen, you didn't really know what he was saying,
but you knew that it had some some you know,
and had to do with how he was delivering it.
And in some ways that's better than having a lyric sheet,
you know what I mean, because if if you have
(18:11):
a lyrics sheet in front of you, it might not
resonate with you the same way that it does, you know,
with you having to kind of come up with your
own meeting of this song. Sure, but early on, yeah,
I think there's a lot of bands.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
You know, there's great hardcore bands who.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
You know, like their their thing was just you know,
addressing the political climate at the time, which you don't
need to address. And you know, like you know, all
the Flyers have like, you know, Reagan on it. And
I'm not going to say, I'm not going to curse
on your podcast, but you know, like there's there's very
they would they would take images of Reagan and make
(18:46):
him do some pretty interesting things, hilariously interesting things. And
you know a lot of bands play with that imagery
and and and just had you know, a political agenda
to their It's great.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I think it was fully really.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Common at the time for punk and hardware bandsy to
be political, and you know, the band just kind of
chose to not be political lyrically, like on thely material,
you know, the early demos and the first seven inch,
in the first full length, I think the lyrics were
definitely just like kind of personal politics and just you know,
kind of talking about things people experience at that time
(19:22):
in life, and you know, conflict amongst friends, and I
think there's a general just kind of feeling of like
disillusionment and alienation that I think a lot of people
felt at that time, and it was just writing from
that perspective.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
There was the EP in nineteen eighty two. It's titled
Cows and Beer, and it was followed by the debut
self titled album in nineteen eighty four. The debut came
after the band return from California, and at this time
they're fragmented. The future of the band is uncertain or
burned out, bummed out, but they reform after a short time.
What are your thoughts on this album and in particularly
the vocals, because you say Dan style was the most
(19:56):
notable shift.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
That first record is. Yeah, it's one of the best
hardcore records ever made. And I think one of the
reasons why is it it does stand out, you know,
the music at that point, they've been playing those songs
for so long, so they're so well rehearsed, so the
band is just super tight, super tight. And I think
in this time, you know, Dan had been singing a
(20:19):
lot and you know, figuring out how he wanted to
use his voice, and you know, by this point on
this first record, I mean, no one was really shredding
their vocal chords that way. People would scream for dramatic effects,
you know, but a lot of the hardcore guys were
like shouting or barking. No one was like really screaming.
(20:39):
It was like him and John Brannon from Negative Approach
was doing it. I mean, John was really doing it
later on with laughing hyenas, And there's kind of more
obscure bands like Siege who were doing it, and even
to lesser degree, John the singer of Void, he was
doing it a little bit too. But No One was
just like every song all the time, just screaming your
(20:59):
guys out. So it was a very different sound for
the time, and the production was enhanced.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
A little bit too.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
By There's a little bit of reverb an atmosphere on
that record that I kind of likened to the first
Joy Division album on Unknown Pleasures. It kind of has
that maybe not that drastic amount of reverb, but it's
definitely like a spacious sounding record. And at the time,
a lot of punk records are pretty dry, and when
you add that amount of atmosphere to the vocals especially,
(21:26):
it gives us this really like haunting, tortured quality. It
just kind of amplifies that to you know, to me
that you know, later on you'd hear a lot of
like like Scandinavian black metal bands really do that, but
this is you know, quite a bit before that. So
it's just so ahead of its time and so good,
you know, that first album is it's it's really an
incredible record.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Yeah, and it got the respect of other musicians. Some
great quotes in the book from Sound Gardens, Kim Thyle
Thurst and more of Sonic Youth, so many people. Some
great quotes from the late great Steve Albani. Still I
still can't believe he's gone, the renowned, Yeah, the renowned
musician and audio engineer who produced Nirvana's in Uterol, which
we have to talk about where you are now in
(22:08):
relation to that album, But he admired the band's originality
on that first album. He said, quote, there's just nothing
about that de Croyton record that sounds like it's received wisdom.
It sounds like they dreamed all that shit up on
their own, Like no one would have ever been taught
to play that way. You can only come up with
those things on your own. That's that says it all.
(22:31):
I mean, that's the respect that they were getting from
the fellow artists.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yeah, I think I mean a lot of this too.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
You know, as we kind of addressed earlier, like later on,
people kind of you know, didn't always it didn't necessarily
like understand those later records and they're like, oh, it's
so different. But you know, the thing that makes them
so great and makes this first record so great is
that they were different, right, Like they sounded pretty different
(22:59):
from other hardcore bands, and they made this really cool
hardcore record. And I think people, you know, fans specifically
some fans, I guess, the ones who maybe didn't like
understand the later records. They didn't stop and think like, well,
the reason why I like them is because they're different.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Steve Albini is a guy who I could see would
love that type of record because that's the way he was.
That's the whole reason Jirvana wanted him to produce in
your euro because they didn't want to make something like
never Mind. They wanted something a little bit off the grid,
something dangerous, something that's that's that the average producer wouldn't
wouldn't do. So talk about where you are, by the way,
(23:33):
speaking of Steve Albini and in Utero, the reason you're
you're you're checking in from your your vehicle right now
is because you just came from a very cool place
I was.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
I was just for like a like a day and
some change. I was at packet In Recording Studio, which
is in Cannon Falls, Minnesota, which is just like four
thousand population, tiny town. It's about forty five minutes out
of the Twin Cities, and it's just uh, really small town.
And there's this wonderful studio there. There's like and that's yeah,
(24:05):
that's where Nirvana, madd Nuterro. It's where like the Wedding
Present recorded, and I think Live did Throwing Copper. There,
tons and tons and tons of great record PJ. Harvey
did Rid of Me there, Super Trunk recorded there. A
lot of indie rock bands like Unrest they recorded there.
I mean, there's the list goes on and on there's
uh it's hums you prefer an astronaut is credited there.
(24:27):
They did one song there. I think the rest of
that record was done elsewhere. But yeah, like tons of
great records in the nineties and beyond, you know, like
I think more recently, like ten years ago.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
I think that band Normal Gene, I think they recorded there.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
So it's it's a destination, but like there's the entire
thing is meant for you to like live on the premises,
so there's like a separate living quarters that's just like
so not unlike it.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
It's just so distinct. It's just like spiral.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Staircases and crazy just seventies carpet and it's just like
there's really wonderful space that's like surrounded by like a
ravine all my and it's just like a really great
place to to just be if you're trying to like
focus and make music. And my friend Graham Hunt, he's
working on his next record right now, and he had
me come up there and hang out for for a
day and shoot photos and just you know, I mean
(25:14):
everyone there. There was like ten or eleven people who
were playing on that record, and they're all really good
friends of mine. Big parts of like the Milwaukee and
Madison music community. So I was just hanging out with
them and you know, on my way home. But yeah,
for me as a as a music fan, it's just
it was a no burner. I mean, I think I
told Graham when he said he's recording a packer er,
It's like, can I just like go.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Up there and touch the door?
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Like yeah, right, you know, because you know, I mean
I probably will never get the opportunity to record there
because you know, it's a nice studio, so I don't
necessarily have kind of funding to record, but you know,
just to be in a space like that, it's just
like so special, you know, to feel like it brings
you closer to the music you love in a way
that you may not always necessarily get to be. So
(25:55):
it's like, you know, some people maybe feel like going
to like I don't know, like Sun Studios or something
like that. They're into that that stuff, which like, yeah,
that stuff's great for sure, but like I just feel
like when you can see the place where these records
were made, it's just it's just I don't know, it
just feels a certain way, like if you've ever toured Hitsville,
the original Motown studio in Detroit. It's I mean, like
(26:16):
I walked in there and I got misty. I just
thinking about like music history was made here.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
You know. It's just it's fantastic. So you get it.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
You're oh yeah, man, you're one of us. I envy you.
I envy you. It's a fantastic Booked on Rock podcast.
We'll be back after this the Crekton. We'll go up
on back too after our short informationion. Getting back to
Decroyz and now let's talk about the album October File
that came out a couple of years after the debut,
and the band moves away from hardcore into slower, more
(26:46):
conceptual work. I don't know if I've ever heard a
band transition so quickly and just progress and evolve so quickly.
It's interesting to read how the guys in the band
had already started to move towards that sound by the
time that first album was already out. Keith Bramer talks
about listening to Joy Division and Sushi in the Banchees
and Rims, Sisters of Mercy, all these referred to these
(27:08):
bands earlier. Talk about that transition and how the guys
saw that debut as an end to that part of
what the band was doing. I mean they were already
moving on.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Yeah, I mean they were just listening to so much music,
and yeah, even by the time they're making that first record,
they're already discovering other things. And you know, it's always
kind of like I don't really want to speak for
the band members, but you know, Keith said this other
so I can just repeat it.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
He's like, we just got bored, you know, like they
just got bored.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
And I think, you know, like you know, anything, if
you do it for enough time, like yeah, you're gonna
get bored with it. And I think they just wanted
to you know, I think any musician just wants to
make the kind of music that they themselves will want
to listen to, right at least, Like that's how I
always approach music making, Like it's you know, I'm gonna
be playing it.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
It should should be fun, I should like it.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
And you know, they just wanted to play the kind
of music that they were into, and so they just
kind of but again, they weren't just like were I
want to be Sisters of Mercy. It's just like, well,
what does Sisters of Mercy make me want to do?
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Right?
Speaker 3 (28:04):
What is joy Division or Echo and the Bunnymen or
the Birthday Party or whoever?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
What is the cure? Like? What does that make me
want to do?
Speaker 3 (28:11):
And then that's how you get these later records that
you know, like once you know the influence, it's like, oh,
I kind of kind of hear that, but like on
the surface, you're just like, I don'tn't really this sounds
like different.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
You know.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
What was the response to the Star contrast to the
first record and this one by critics and fans.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Well, with the first record, it was just like everyone
loved that record.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
I mean to me, it's like, yeah, there's some changes
in production, but generally speaking it's it's still just.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Hardcore, right.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
But the second record, you know, there were some people
who really wanted another hardcore record.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
They just didn't give them that.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
And I think some of those people kind of felt,
you know, I just they was upset about that. But
you know, for the people who maybe abandoned them because
they were you know, changing, slowing down, maybe become a
little bit more melodic, there's people who are now maybe
they wouldn't have liked the first record, but they liked
the second record. There is a little bit more melody driven, right,
So they're starting to gain a different audience than you know,
(29:07):
people who are maybe maybe not people who are into hardcore,
but maybe they're into something like Whoscurdu and Now and
Who's Screw too. They were you know, evolving and moving
to you know, towards more melodic songwriting too, So you know,
I think people were just turned on to the you know,
the newer stuff they were doing. Even though there was
maybe other people who you know, like the older stuff,
(29:28):
we didn't dig it as.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Much, You're right. Quote Still, October File was only the
beginning of the band's journey away from hardcore, mark the
start of a pattern that we would see for the
remainder of the band's career. Next two albums produced by
butch Vig nineteen eighty eight Century Days and the band's
final album, which was nineteen ninety one Cement. He also
produced the nineteen eighty ninety EP Going Away. Where does
(29:49):
the band go? Sonically on those last albums.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Man, it's interesting because, yeah, things definitely got more melodic,
but I would argue that the music also became more difficult,
you know, like hardcore is a brace of music, and
it's fast, but in some ways it's kind of easy
to listen to, Like you can sing along the minor
threat songs, you know what I mean, Like they have hooks,
(30:14):
they have choruses, you know, and you know, you can
be fast and you can even if you're maybe not
into like how abrasive the vocals or whatever, you can like,
you know, po go around and have a good time.
It's fun, Like hardcore is fun music, you know. It's
like early eighties American hardcore is fun music. And I'm
not saying it's necessarily happy music, but it's fun. And
(30:36):
once you get darker and maybe dothier and a little
bit more dissonant, you can still be singing. But in
some ways the music can become a little bit more difficult.
And I think what we talked about earlier, where it's
just like, you know, they influenced a bunch of people,
but they maybe never were able to get to that
next level. And I think one of the reasons why
they never made that full break into the mainstream, I
(30:58):
think a they couldn't find them major label that wanted
to give them the kind of creative control that they wanted.
But b they didn't you know, labels didn't really know
what to do with them because they were like straddling
a lot of lines. They sort of were kind of metally,
but they're kind of post punky and kind of goth,
and you know, especially at that time, like labels're like, well,
(31:19):
who do we sell this to?
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Right?
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Would it be fair to compare them to Jane's addiction
prior to james Addiction becoming big because metal.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Yeah, I mean I guess it's like, uh, similar ingredients
making two different meals.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
I could see that.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
And they were a little they were a little ahead
of their time to where.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Ahead of their time, But at least James Addiction got
you know, I mean they had hits. I mean like
you know, eventually eventually the James says and didn't caught
steal and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
But you know, but at first, it was like what
are we going to do with this?
Speaker 3 (31:55):
Because it's not one thing right, It's like people don't
know how to they don't know who to sell it
to or how to sell it, right, And I think
that was definitely part of it. But you know, the
you brought up earlier, like the gone Away, Yeah, like
that to me is a song writing achievement. Yes, that
to me is the best song that they wrote.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
That is a yep, say that's my favorite song.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Absolutely, me too, Me too.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
It's a fantastic song, and I think it really covers
all the ground that that band covered, minus the super fast.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Speed of hardcore. But it's it's.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Really kind of beautiful and melancholy, and it's in three
or four time, has this kind of rolling quality and
has wonderful There's all these different like guitar hooks and
then you know and Dan singing wonderfully. But even then
he has to take it to the screen. He has
to scream just for a little bit, right, So it's
like it's a super melodic song and then it's just
(32:52):
like it just you know, left turns of these kind
of really like his kind of signature tortured pain to
kind of scream. But it's such a wonderful song. It's
three minutes long, you know, in a in an alternate universe.
To me, that's that's a modern rock radio head.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Absolutely. When I first heard it, and I was telling
you before we recorded that, I was I knew of
the band, knew the name, but really didn't listen to
a whole lot of the music, and as this has
happened so many times to this podcast. After reading a book,
I listened to the music and I more often than
not fall in love with the band. And I've done
it with this band. And when I've heard Gone Away
for the first time, I'm like, how, how the fuck this?
(33:29):
How does the song just skip past so many people?
Because it is Yeah, it's just the timing of it.
If it was a couple of years later.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Yeah, I mean I've said, like, well, you know, their
last album, Cement, you know, was recorded and released in
ninety one, and I think you know, they released Gone
Away as a EP because it had been a little
bit since they put out something new, and Touch and
Go was like, maybe we should do et or something
like that.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
But what's cool is, by the way, we mentioned Aerosmith
that Gone Away. The next track is Seasons of Whather.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
There are Seasons of Whether right, which is a great,
great right. It's a great cover. But I think if
they would have saved Gone Away for the Cement album
and had that been like the single off that record,
I think maybe it would have gotten a little bit
more more people would have heard it. You know, because
I mean the timing of Cement is so interesting because
(34:20):
right before they made Cement, Butch had finished you'd wrap
up work on the first Smashing Pumpkins record, Gish and
then either right before or maybe after or maybe like
he started working on Cements and then finished it later,
but he Butch had gone to La to Sound City
to go make Nevermind.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Is that crazy?
Speaker 2 (34:41):
And so the timing of it is so it's so
wild right to think about.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
You know, There's there's this article that was in Hit
Parader in I think ninety two or early ninety two,
and it was one of those like, you know, forty
of the blah blah blahs to blah blah blah, right,
and I think it was like forty alternative metal bands
to watch in the year ninety two or something like that,
and on the front page Smashing Pumpkins, Afghan Whigs to Kretzin,
(35:06):
you know, and it's like, so, I.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Mean, they were right there, you know. Yeah, Like, you know, I.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Think maybe one of the reasons why they didn't break
through is you know, maybe labels didn't know what to
do with them, but also like they were maybe a
little bit too difficult to break into the mainstream, you
know records.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
You said in the book wanted to sign them right
after they broke up.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
After they had split. Myke Getter, who went on to
sign so many great bands. Myke Getter is such a
rad dude and has done so much awesome stuff. I mean,
he signed he ended up signing Jawbox to Atlantic and
signing a lot of great bands from the underground and
you know, giving them the resources to make you know,
these kind of bigger records. And I mean, I love
that record Jawbox made for Atlantic as a savory to
(35:44):
me again, should have been a top forty hit.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
I don't know why I wasn't.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
In my universe, that is a top forty hit, you know,
but yeah's just a little bit too late. And you
know there, I of course, like there is a little
bit of like the what if factor in that book,
like well what if?
Speaker 2 (35:58):
And you know, we'll never know.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
But you know, I think if anything, they maybe would
sign a major label, make a record that they wanted
to make, and I mean maybe more people would have
heard it, but not enough to please the major label.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Booked on rock Podcasts. We'll be back after this.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
I'm gonna need some flyers and uh set a thirty
W eight ball bearings.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Black Fred gets here before I'm back, you.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Can tell him to start without me.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Hell you need ball bearings. Fo Oh, come on, guys,
it's so simple. Maybe you need a refresher course.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Hey, it's all ball bearings nowadays. Hey, guys, thanks so
much for checking out the Booked on Rock podcast. If
you've just found the podcast, welcome. If you've been listening,
thank you so much for your support, and make sure
you tell a friend, a family member, share on social
media and let people know about Booked on Rock, And
(36:49):
if you do like the podcast, make sure you subscribe
give a five star review. Wherever you listen to the
Booked on Rock podcast, run Amazon, Apple, iHeart, Spotify, Speaker,
tune in in on YouTube music. You can check out
the full episodes on video, along with video highlights from
episodes on the Booked on Rock YouTube channel. Find it
at Booked on Rock. Thanks again for listening. Now back
(37:11):
to the show. Here's the quote from Vig in the
book about when he first saw the band. This says
it all. It was psychedelic rock, it was punk, it
was almost metal at points, and yet they had this
great pop sensibility to their songs as well. So he
saw something there. He saw what he saw in Nirvana.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
I mean, Butcher Vig is a pop guy through and through,
and he calls himself with sub sub proclaimed pop geek
is what he says, and so I mean he and
he's the guy to bring hooks out at Peopball, you know,
I mean the jump from Bleach to Nevermind is a
very big jump.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Obviously the production played a big role in it.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
And obviously there's not that many songs on Bleach that
are as hooky as the stuff on never Mind, but
you know, Butcher really brought out those melodic elements. And
then Andy Wallace, you know, who's known for mixing like Slayer,
made it just sound and super heavy. So then you
have these really heavy pop songs and it appeals to
the aggressive music crowd, but it also appeals to people
who maybe have never heard Sonic Youth or Dinosaur Junior
(38:09):
or whoever else. Right, And you know, had they been
able to make another record with Butch, who knows, but
you know, we'll never know.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Yeah, they broke up in ninety two.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
They broke up in ninety two, Vic but Vig.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Says he told you that, yeah, there were internal battles
with some conflict going on there while they were recording Cement,
but he didn't think they were going to break up.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
What led to the breakup, it's nothing really interesting.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
They just they got to the point where there's like,
you know, we're we're playing, you know, we're touring all
the time, and we're touring more than we're at home.
You know, the audiences aren't necessarily getting any bigger. In
some cases, maybe they're getting a little bit smaller, you know,
and they just I think they just felt.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Like, you know, like we don't really know like where.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
We fit in a sense, like they would played a
nicer sized audience when you know, Bansic Sonic Youth could
take them out of the road, but then when they
would go out on their own again, it'd be like
we all over playing to you know, one hundred people
on hundred fifty people.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
My feeling is listening to the music and seeing where
music went and seeing how big Nirvana got. If you
put them out on the road, open for Nirvana for
a little while, there build up that following next thing.
You know, I think they're headlining their own gigs mtvs
picking up on them radios. Modern rock radio is getting big.
You know, wait a year or two.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
I think at that point, like being affiliated with Nirvana
was definitely helpful. You know, he helped the Melvins get signed,
and you know, like you know, people were now turned
onto bands like the Beans of the Wipers or whatever else.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
But you know, and then even like you know, they.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
Took Jawbreaker on on tour for what ten days, and
that resulted in Jawbreaker becoming like a you know, the
quorded by major labels, you know, the sort of unsignable band.
Eventually you know, they signed to a major label, right,
but who's to say? You know, I know, Kurt Cobain
was a fan. He he he wrote about He mentions
them in his journals and it wasn't it wasn't like
(40:03):
in one of those lists, but he was. It was
like a letter he wrote some buzz from the Melbyns
and it was or maybe a letter he didn't send
a buzz, I don't know, but there was definitely something
in there where he said, have you heard the new
dey Kreitzen album? So it was at least the band
he was aware of and I think. I mean, he
was a Kurt was a huge touching records guy, right.
He loved Big Black and Scratch Acid and all that stuff.
(40:24):
So I'm sure he at least knew those records. I'm
it's pretty safe to say he liked them. But I can't,
you know, make that assumption. I know Dave Girl is
a big fan for sure, but you know, I'd say,
if you were into touch and go bands at that time,
I think most people who were around for that era
of touch and go they like Decroitson.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Well, this book will get some exposure for the band
as well, don't say please the Oral History of De
Creuzen and it's out now. You can find it wherever
books are sold and look forward at your nearest bookstore.
Go to bookdown rock dot com to find your nearest
independent bookstore. And where could people find you online? To
hunh uh? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (40:59):
So you can follow me me on Instagram. I have
an Instagram page for the book. It's just at Decroitzen
book and that's kind of just where I post just
like just stuff about the band and then just like
updates in terms of like events and stuff that I'm
doing for the book and that's kind of the best
way to figure out, you know, everything that's you know,
going on with this book right now.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
So Han, thanks man, thanks for just sneaking in this
interview coming back from that very cool trip to a
part of rock and roll history.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
So I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me.
This is wonderful, So thank you so much for taking
the time to talk to me.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
And you're doing me a favor here.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Cool. That's it. It's in the books.
On this episode of Booked on Rock, the story of
one of the most influential bands in punk, metal and
alternative rock, The Story of De Creutzen, with author Sahan
Jayas Soria.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
We're totally bum rock and roll.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
I mean, I'll leave you. You're reading Little hens says,
it's time to.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Rock and roll. Roll up, we are totally booked. Welcome
back to book dot Rock, the podcast for those about
to read and rock on Eric Sanitch. This episode's guest
is Sahan Jai Soria, the author of Don't Say Please,
The Oral History of De Creuzen. Sahan, thanks for being here.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Thanks for having me right.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
This is a book that was ten years in the making.
Tell us how it came together. And you just spoke
to so many people, including all the members of the band.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Yeah, I think I started probably officially. I started the
book ten years ago, and I didn't have any publisher involved,
and it was just kind of this thing that I
was doing because I felt like this is a really
important band for my city. It was clearly very influential,
and I just wanted to tell their story and just
kind of share it with anyone, not only the people
(01:08):
who are fans of them. But hopefully, you know, expose
their music to you know.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
A whole new aud some of the listeners.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
And kind of the more research I did, the more
I realized that they had pretty sizable following amongst you know,
pretty prominent musicians. So over time I just kind of
kept reaching out to people and and just setting on
my own interviews, and you know, next thing I knew it,
it was like seven years in, and you know, I'm
still like, am I done?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Am I not done?
Speaker 3 (01:38):
And when Farrel House got involved, that's when they were like, Okay,
I think you're a pretty good place now you should
you know, finish instead of just keep going. So they're
kind of the ones who really got me to focus
and and and kind of pare it down and edit
it into the form that you see at the end
of the day.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
One of the many people you spoke with was which Vig,
legendary producer who produced the band's albums, and he said,
quote de Kreutz and or one of those bands that
influenced a thousand other bands that went on to have
huge success. Why they didn't have the same level of
success as something we'll get into a little bit more,
but interesting, I'm interested in finding out how you discovered
this band, it was that you were working at a
(02:19):
record store, I believe right right.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
I was working at a legendary record shop.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
In Milwaukee that's no longer around, called Atomic Records, and
my boss at the time, they gave me a copy
of their first sevenence just to like check out, and
he knew I was into hardcore, and I didn't really
know him as someone as being into hardcore, so I
didn't really expect much of it, honestly, and when I
took it home, it just blew me away.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I was just like, I was not prepared for it.
And I think one of.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
The reasons that really blew me away is it didn't
really sound like anything else I had heard at that time,
and I'd heard a lot of hardcore, but there was
a lot of elements about it that just didn't make
sense to me in terms of like the time that
it was being made, so like the vocals were way
more aggressive, the music was a lot tighter it.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
It was just a different thing.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
And then you know, the more that I kind of listen,
the more questions I had, And I think me discovering
their music more is also what kind of led me
to eventually wanting to write a book because I had
so many questions that I just wanted to have answered myself.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Right.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
But you know, as they evolved, you know, they made
this amazing debut album that's just like straight ahead, super fast,
super tight hardcore, and it's pretty much like among that crowd,
it's like universally lauded. Like it's just it's one of
those hardcore records that most people can just agree on.
Everyone loves it. And the problem with doing something like
(03:41):
that is, like, where do you go from there? When
you make this thing that people love so much? Like
if there's no way that you could follow it up
with a you know, a better version of that, right,
so you have to do something different. And so they
started to explore other styles of music, and it's just
it wasn't a conscious decision on their part.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
They just evolved.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Based on what they were into, both like the stuff
that they grew up with because they were really into
you know, prog stuff when they were younger, and also
like the post punk stuff and things like you know,
Brian Eno and Wire. But there's newer influences as that
were coming into the fold for them because they were
really into like the forty D Records bands and just
the kind of UK post punk thing, just stuff like
(04:22):
Sisters of Mercy and uh like the Fordy stuff, you
know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
And bands like The Birthday Party too, for sure.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
And that was kind of coloring their sound. But they're
coming from hardcore. So when you you know, come those
two things, you're gonna get something that stay different. But
you know, over time, I think some people got those
records and some people didn't. And so when you know,
I just kept like kind of digging into their catalog
and it was just sort of like I've called them
sort of like the proto everything banned for nineties alt rock,
(04:51):
because their catalog really does show a very very broad
range of what was happening in the under ground in
both in I guess in the America and in UK
at least in their influence. It just covers such a
broad range of like eighties eighties underground guitar music, and
(05:12):
you know that was those records were super influential for
a lot of other artists who went on to achieve
greater or much greater success in the following decade.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Let's talk about the band's origins. You write, quote it's
debatable whether de Crouzon could have ever happened at any
other time or in any other place besides the American
Midwest during the nineteen eighties. So give us the wind.
Where in the how the band comes together? If you
could the four guys, they all grew up in the
right place, right time.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
I'd say so. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Half of the band has origins in Rockford, Illinois. Most
people might know that as being the hometown of Cheap Trick.
And then the other half were from Brookfield, Wisconsin, which
is a suburb of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and vocalist Dan Kubinsky
Brian Agnes where the two guys who were came from Rockford.
They were in previously called the Stella's, and the Stella's
(06:08):
moved up to Milwaukee, and you know, they quickly realized
they didn't have a drummer when they moved there, so
they asked their friend Keith Bramer if he knew anyone.
He's like, well, I happened to know somebody's a really
great drummer who was drummer Eric Tunison. So he came
into the fold, and not long after he joined the band.
They kind of realized that their basis at the time,
they just weren't really they weren't really feeling it wasn't
(06:30):
a good fit. And then they asked Keith to join
the band. So then when they settle in that line up,
not long after they changed their name from the Stella's
to Decroitzen, and that was I believe at sometime in
nineteen eighty one, this is when they changed the name
to Decroitzen.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
They were into a broad range of music, which you
did talk about. There are some they were fans of
the classic rock bands like Kiss, cec Are, Zeppelin, ac Aerosmith.
There's a letter that bassist Keith wrote to Circus Magazine
that's in the book. He was a defender of Zeppelin,
Kiss Angel, and Aerosmith. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that
I learned, you know, like I came up listening to
punk and hardcore. You know, I'm I'm almost forty, I'll
be turning forty in October.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
So the classic rock.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
Thing was not really anything that I really paid much
attention to as a young kid.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
I loved Queen. I was a huge Queen fan.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
But you know, some of the other bands maybe just
they didn't really connect with me, And it wasn't really
until later in life that like, especially like the glam
stuff that.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Really resonated with me.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
And I think they came from really liking a lot
of seventies punk, but a lot of the classic rock
stuff didn't resonate with me. And I think it's because
I had other, you know, punk things to listen to.
But the thing that I learned in researching this book
and just reading about this period in general, is a
lot of people who listened to punkin hardcore bands.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Of course, they.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Weren't listening to punk and hardcore because they were helping
invent it. So they were listening to the heaviest music available,
and the heaviest available was like hard rock and classic rock,
you know. And so many people you know who are
like kind of gen X age group, they you know,
Kiss was a big deal for them.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
It was like.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
A early early influence because it was just like it
was made for teenage kids. You know, they look like
cartoon characters. You know, it's just guitar solos and flamethrowers.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
And pinball machines.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
It makes so much sense for a certain a person
of a certain age at a certain time to be
a kiss fan, right, So all those things were just like,
you know, the edgiest, you know, like gnarliest thing available.
And I think so many people who went on to
play and punk and hardcore bands definitely did their time
(08:39):
listening to you know, classic rock and them and that stuff.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I mean around sweet and slight. But all that stuff
is great, you know.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
I think it's interesting. And reading a lot about grunge
bands and how much they were influenced by early Aerosmith
and Black Sabbath, I hear that often early Smith and
Black Sabbath.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Yeah, well, I mean the early Aerosmith records are pretty
pretty cool. I mean, especially you know, the vocalist for
Decoys and Day Kebinsky. He cites Stephen Tyler as a
huge influence. When he first told me that in person,
years before I was writing the book, I was just like,
I wasn't expecting it, because again I didn't realize that
some of these like people who listen who made punk
and hardcore were listening to classic rock.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
But I was thinking about it. I was like, well,
you think about the end of dream On, where.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
He's really pushing his voice into like screaming territory. I'm like, oh,
that makes sense, you know, but yeah, I mean the
grunge bands. I mean, Kirk Kobaane is a huge fan
of like a record like Rocks by Aerosmith.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
He loved that record.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
You know, Yeah, it's dirty, it's it's it's grungy.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Yeah, totally, you know, I mean the drum sound of
that record rules. That's a great record. I'm not like
the world's biggest Aerosmith fan, but they have some records
I definitely dig, for sure.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
But at some point in the mid seventies, punk rock
enters the scene and that has a huge impact on
the guys, especially Keith. He was the first guy in
town to talk about punk. According to drummer Eric Tunison,
so Keith was the guy that knew punk.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Everyone has that friend I think who is just like
so rabbit about music, and they're just like the one
who's always like on the thing right as it's happening.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You know.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
At a certain age, I was definitely that guy with
my friends. And you know, I still am theo that
guy to some degree, but definitely in my teen years
it's like I knew you know about you know, whatever
new band or whoever's new record, like as you know
it was just it was It was so important to me.
It still is important to me. But there's that one
person who's kind of like the town crier or something,
right like they they're the one who informs all their friends.
(10:36):
They are the ones who's making the mixtapes and you
know all that. And I think Keith is definitely that
guy for for that friend group for sure. And he
you know, he was the one who got all the
early singles and buying you know, the Clash record on
Import and you know all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
There was a point when the Stella sound evolved into
something new, and this is around nineteen eighty one. They
would become known for their their speed early on. What
inspired that increased tempo and energy?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
I think the speed thing definitely had.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
There was a couple of records that was contributing to that,
and I think like Group Sex by the Circle.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Jerks was a big one for a lot of people.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
I think that that record came out pretty early on
and it was pretty fast for the time. Also, like
the early Bad Brain stuff was pretty fast. Some of
the early Dead Kennedy stuff was getting fast. So the
temples were just being pushed and I think people were
just kinda.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I don't want to say like.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Necessarily following the leader, but I just think it was
just like it was just the.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Thing to do. It was like.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
That's how you that's how you made your music more intense,
you know what I mean, Like the temp just made
it like just gnarlier and heavier. So I think that
was like the whole It was just the thing that
people were doing. And I'm almost like I hesitate to
use the word like in style, but it's just kind
of it was just what was happening at the time,
(12:01):
you know. And it was if you if you could
play faster, that was like, oh, like they're fast, like
that was that was definitely kind of a uh something
something to admire, you know. And so you know, Ducrotzen
were just kind of following like those bands and bands
like da and it was just like a thing was
like okay, like let's just try and speed it up
(12:23):
a little bit, you know, because it's it's one thing
to be.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Fast and slot.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
You know, that's fine, that's its own thing. I'm not
going to name any names. There's bands and I love that,
but like when you're fast and tight, that's it's different.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
That's a different thing and and and.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
That shows that like these guys practice, right, So I
think that was just things they were just like they
push the tempos a little bit, push the temples a
little bit. Because I have like an old live performances
Stella has been released, you know, not a lot of
people have it, and there's some songs that ended up
(12:59):
on the first Decroits and record that are played at
like by comparison, they sound mid tempo, you know, and
you can kind of make out the rips a little
bit better because they're not played at like breakneck speed.
But it's like it's really cool to hear and it's
just oh, like they were like there's you know, there's
early footage of the Bad Brands playing like Attitude and
they're like wearing suits and it's pretty mid tempo, you know.
(13:21):
And then you listen to like, you know, the like
the Black Dots and it's a little bit faster, and
they listen to the Roar Cassette and it's a little
bit faster. And then by the time you get to
like Rock for Light, they've shaved on songs that's gotten
so bad. I don't necessarily think there were This is
like following other bands that we want to be like them,
you know, because like there's this thing that I've heard
(13:44):
other people talk about. There's an artist was a rapper,
Fante Coleman. He's a groupole little brother. He talks about
like this sort of phases of being influenced. It says
like imitation, inspiration, and innovation, right, And imitation is like
I want to be like black Flag, right, And then
inspiration is like I am like inspired by Black Flag.
(14:07):
I'm making music that's inspired by Black Flag. And then
innovation is like black Flag has pushed me to I mean,
I guess like the creativity and my love of Black
Flag has pushed me to innovate something something else completely right,
And a lot of people don't get to the third stage,
(14:27):
you know, a lot of that.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
There's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
You can hear bands, and you can hear like, oh
you're kind of doing this, and you're kind of doing that,
you know, you listen to the Strokes, and you can
hear television, right.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Yeah, but it doesn't really matter because they're good, right.
But it takes a special group of people to really
get that.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Third state of well, I want to kind of do
my own thing and de Crouzen got to that point
for sure.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
So han Jayasuria is the author of Don't Say Please,
The Oral History of Decreutz, And let's talk about the
name change to De Kreutzen October of nineteen eighty one.
That happened. How did they come up with that name
and what does it mean?
Speaker 2 (15:04):
So it's from this kind of conflicting accounts.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Some people say it's a German German language Bible, some
people say it was just a German book. I just
kind of bring them all up at the same song,
because I've never really given a straight answer.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
But Diane who came.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Up with that name, and then she's like, Yay, I'm
gonna start this band called de Crozon And then or
either she didn't or whatever, but they they just they
ended up with the name.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
It's a cool name, man, you gotta admit it's it's mysterious.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
It's it's great. It's definitely not always pronounced. If I
had a penny for every time someone said Mike Cruising,
you know, d cruiser. Yeah, but it's uh, technically it's
the spelling doesn't translate perfectly to something, but it technically
is either like the sign of the Cross, or like crossing,
like the crossing, I guess, or even to some people,
(15:55):
I guess it's like the crosses. But it fucking looks.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Great, Yes, looks great at record cover.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
I mean, I mean, if you get that, I mean,
you don't need to think about it anymore.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Booked on Rock podcasts will be back after this. During
our brief intermasion, let's take a flying trip from lambda
fantasy to everyday life. Find the bookdown Rock website at
bookdn rock dot com. There you can find all the
back episodes of the show, the latest episode in video
and audio, links to all of the platforms where you
can listen to the podcast, plus all the social media
(16:29):
platforms were on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and x.
Also check out the Booked on Rock blog. Find your
local independent bookstore, find out all the latest hot rock
book releases, and before you go, check out the Booked
on Rock online store. Pick up some Booked on Rock merch.
It's all at booked on Rock dot com. Lyrically, let's
(16:50):
talk lyrics now. So Dan Kovinski he avoided addressing politics,
which wasn't the norm for punk and hardcore bands. Talk
about his lyrics and how he preferred also listener to
assign whatever meaning they wished to his songs, and I
believe in the future albums he didn't want the lyrics printed.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Yeah, after the first record in nineteen eighty four, they
just consciously didn't print lyric sheets. And I think Dan
had said, you know, I'm paraphrasing him, but to the
fact of he just kind of preferred the listener just
you know, it hacked me songs, right, And as you know,
the music changed. You know, the music also kind of
(17:29):
I think, just had a little bit more of like
an emotional heft to it. And so when you're making
music that's kind of that emotionally heavy, it's pretty easy
to you know, attach whatever meaning you want to it, right.
I mean, that's something Ram did too. In the early days.
They didn't print their lyrics sheets. And you know, people
always talk about how like the vocals were mixed really low,
and Michael Stipe's voice was kind of like mumbling a
(17:50):
little bit. So you know, a lot of people didn't
know what the lyrics were. And in the case of
de Kreitzen, you didn't really know what he was saying,
but you knew that it had some some you know,
and had to do with how he was delivering it.
And in some ways that's better than having a lyric sheet,
you know what I mean, because if if you have
(18:11):
a lyrics sheet in front of you, it might not
resonate with you the same way that it does, you know,
with you having to kind of come up with your
own meeting of this song. Sure, but early on, yeah,
I think there's a lot of bands.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
You know, there's great hardcore bands who.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
You know, like their their thing was just you know,
addressing the political climate at the time, which you don't
need to address. And you know, like you know, all
the Flyers have like, you know, Reagan on it. And
I'm not going to say, I'm not going to curse
on your podcast, but you know, like there's there's very
they would they would take images of Reagan and make
(18:46):
him do some pretty interesting things, hilariously interesting things. And
you know a lot of bands play with that imagery
and and and just had you know, a political agenda
to their It's great.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I think it was fully really.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Common at the time for punk and hardware bandsy to
be political, and you know, the band just kind of
chose to not be political lyrically, like on thely material,
you know, the early demos and the first seven inch,
in the first full length, I think the lyrics were
definitely just like kind of personal politics and just you know,
kind of talking about things people experience at that time
(19:22):
in life, and you know, conflict amongst friends, and I
think there's a general just kind of feeling of like
disillusionment and alienation that I think a lot of people
felt at that time, and it was just writing from
that perspective.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
There was the EP in nineteen eighty two. It's titled
Cows and Beer, and it was followed by the debut
self titled album in nineteen eighty four. The debut came
after the band return from California, and at this time
they're fragmented. The future of the band is uncertain or
burned out, bummed out, but they reform after a short time.
What are your thoughts on this album and in particularly
the vocals, because you say Dan style was the most
(19:56):
notable shift.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
That first record is. Yeah, it's one of the best
hardcore records ever made. And I think one of the
reasons why is it it does stand out, you know,
the music at that point, they've been playing those songs
for so long, so they're so well rehearsed, so the
band is just super tight, super tight. And I think
in this time, you know, Dan had been singing a
(20:19):
lot and you know, figuring out how he wanted to
use his voice, and you know, by this point on
this first record, I mean, no one was really shredding
their vocal chords that way. People would scream for dramatic effects,
you know, but a lot of the hardcore guys were
like shouting or barking. No one was like really screaming.
(20:39):
It was like him and John Brannon from Negative Approach
was doing it. I mean, John was really doing it
later on with laughing hyenas, And there's kind of more
obscure bands like Siege who were doing it, and even
to lesser degree, John the singer of Void, he was
doing it a little bit too. But No One was
just like every song all the time, just screaming your
(20:59):
guys out. So it was a very different sound for
the time, and the production was enhanced.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
A little bit too.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
By There's a little bit of reverb an atmosphere on
that record that I kind of likened to the first
Joy Division album on Unknown Pleasures. It kind of has
that maybe not that drastic amount of reverb, but it's
definitely like a spacious sounding record. And at the time,
a lot of punk records are pretty dry, and when
you add that amount of atmosphere to the vocals especially,
(21:26):
it gives us this really like haunting, tortured quality. It
just kind of amplifies that to you know, to me
that you know, later on you'd hear a lot of
like like Scandinavian black metal bands really do that, but
this is you know, quite a bit before that. So
it's just so ahead of its time and so good,
you know, that first album is it's it's really an
incredible record.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Yeah, and it got the respect of other musicians. Some
great quotes in the book from Sound Gardens, Kim Thyle
Thurst and more of Sonic Youth, so many people. Some
great quotes from the late great Steve Albani. Still I
still can't believe he's gone, the renowned, Yeah, the renowned
musician and audio engineer who produced Nirvana's in Uterol, which
we have to talk about where you are now in
(22:08):
relation to that album, But he admired the band's originality
on that first album. He said, quote, there's just nothing
about that de Croyton record that sounds like it's received wisdom.
It sounds like they dreamed all that shit up on
their own, Like no one would have ever been taught
to play that way. You can only come up with
those things on your own. That's that says it all.
(22:31):
I mean, that's the respect that they were getting from
the fellow artists.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yeah, I think I mean a lot of this too.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
You know, as we kind of addressed earlier, like later on,
people kind of you know, didn't always it didn't necessarily
like understand those later records and they're like, oh, it's
so different. But you know, the thing that makes them
so great and makes this first record so great is
that they were different, right, Like they sounded pretty different
(22:59):
from other hardcore bands, and they made this really cool
hardcore record. And I think people, you know, fans specifically
some fans, I guess, the ones who maybe didn't like
understand the later records. They didn't stop and think like, well,
the reason why I like them is because they're different.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Steve Albini is a guy who I could see would
love that type of record because that's the way he was.
That's the whole reason Jirvana wanted him to produce in
your euro because they didn't want to make something like
never Mind. They wanted something a little bit off the grid,
something dangerous, something that's that's that the average producer wouldn't
wouldn't do. So talk about where you are, by the way,
(23:33):
speaking of Steve Albini and in Utero, the reason you're
you're you're checking in from your your vehicle right now
is because you just came from a very cool place
I was.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
I was just for like a like a day and
some change. I was at packet In Recording Studio, which
is in Cannon Falls, Minnesota, which is just like four
thousand population, tiny town. It's about forty five minutes out
of the Twin Cities, and it's just uh, really small town.
And there's this wonderful studio there. There's like and that's yeah,
(24:05):
that's where Nirvana, madd Nuterro. It's where like the Wedding
Present recorded, and I think Live did Throwing Copper. There,
tons and tons and tons of great record PJ. Harvey
did Rid of Me there, Super Trunk recorded there. A
lot of indie rock bands like Unrest they recorded there.
I mean, there's the list goes on and on there's
uh it's hums you prefer an astronaut is credited there.
(24:27):
They did one song there. I think the rest of
that record was done elsewhere. But yeah, like tons of
great records in the nineties and beyond, you know, like
I think more recently, like ten years ago.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
I think that band Normal Gene, I think they recorded there.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
So it's it's a destination, but like there's the entire
thing is meant for you to like live on the premises,
so there's like a separate living quarters that's just like
so not unlike it.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
It's just so distinct. It's just like spiral.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Staircases and crazy just seventies carpet and it's just like
there's really wonderful space that's like surrounded by like a
ravine all my and it's just like a really great
place to to just be if you're trying to like
focus and make music. And my friend Graham Hunt, he's
working on his next record right now, and he had
me come up there and hang out for for a
day and shoot photos and just you know, I mean
(25:14):
everyone there. There was like ten or eleven people who
were playing on that record, and they're all really good
friends of mine. Big parts of like the Milwaukee and
Madison music community. So I was just hanging out with
them and you know, on my way home. But yeah,
for me as a as a music fan, it's just
it was a no burner. I mean, I think I
told Graham when he said he's recording a packer er,
It's like, can I just like go.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Up there and touch the door?
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Like yeah, right, you know, because you know, I mean
I probably will never get the opportunity to record there
because you know, it's a nice studio, so I don't
necessarily have kind of funding to record, but you know,
just to be in a space like that, it's just
like so special, you know, to feel like it brings
you closer to the music you love in a way
that you may not always necessarily get to be. So
(25:55):
it's like, you know, some people maybe feel like going
to like I don't know, like Sun Studios or something
like that. They're into that that stuff, which like, yeah,
that stuff's great for sure, but like I just feel
like when you can see the place where these records
were made, it's just it's just I don't know, it
just feels a certain way, like if you've ever toured Hitsville,
the original Motown studio in Detroit. It's I mean, like
(26:16):
I walked in there and I got misty. I just
thinking about like music history was made here.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
You know. It's just it's fantastic. So you get it.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
You're oh yeah, man, you're one of us. I envy you.
I envy you. It's a fantastic Booked on Rock podcast.
We'll be back after this the Crekton. We'll go up
on back too after our short informationion. Getting back to
Decroyz and now let's talk about the album October File
that came out a couple of years after the debut,
and the band moves away from hardcore into slower, more
(26:46):
conceptual work. I don't know if I've ever heard a
band transition so quickly and just progress and evolve so quickly.
It's interesting to read how the guys in the band
had already started to move towards that sound by the
time that first album was already out. Keith Bramer talks
about listening to Joy Division and Sushi in the Banchees
and Rims, Sisters of Mercy, all these referred to these
(27:08):
bands earlier. Talk about that transition and how the guys
saw that debut as an end to that part of
what the band was doing. I mean they were already
moving on.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Yeah, I mean they were just listening to so much music,
and yeah, even by the time they're making that first record,
they're already discovering other things. And you know, it's always
kind of like I don't really want to speak for
the band members, but you know, Keith said this other
so I can just repeat it.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
He's like, we just got bored, you know, like they
just got bored.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
And I think, you know, like you know, anything, if
you do it for enough time, like yeah, you're gonna
get bored with it. And I think they just wanted
to you know, I think any musician just wants to
make the kind of music that they themselves will want
to listen to, right at least, Like that's how I
always approach music making, Like it's you know, I'm gonna
be playing it.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
It should should be fun, I should like it.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
And you know, they just wanted to play the kind
of music that they were into, and so they just
kind of but again, they weren't just like were I
want to be Sisters of Mercy. It's just like, well,
what does Sisters of Mercy make me want to do?
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Right?
Speaker 3 (28:04):
What is joy Division or Echo and the Bunnymen or
the Birthday Party or whoever?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
What is the cure? Like? What does that make me
want to do?
Speaker 3 (28:11):
And then that's how you get these later records that
you know, like once you know the influence, it's like, oh,
I kind of kind of hear that, but like on
the surface, you're just like, I don'tn't really this sounds
like different.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
You know.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
What was the response to the Star contrast to the
first record and this one by critics and fans.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Well, with the first record, it was just like everyone
loved that record.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
I mean to me, it's like, yeah, there's some changes
in production, but generally speaking it's it's still just.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Hardcore, right.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
But the second record, you know, there were some people
who really wanted another hardcore record.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
They just didn't give them that.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
And I think some of those people kind of felt,
you know, I just they was upset about that. But
you know, for the people who maybe abandoned them because
they were you know, changing, slowing down, maybe become a
little bit more melodic, there's people who are now maybe
they wouldn't have liked the first record, but they liked
the second record. There is a little bit more melody driven, right,
So they're starting to gain a different audience than you know,
(29:07):
people who are maybe maybe not people who are into hardcore,
but maybe they're into something like Whoscurdu and Now and
Who's Screw too. They were you know, evolving and moving
to you know, towards more melodic songwriting too, So you know,
I think people were just turned on to the you know,
the newer stuff they were doing. Even though there was
maybe other people who you know, like the older stuff,
(29:28):
we didn't dig it as.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Much, You're right. Quote Still, October File was only the
beginning of the band's journey away from hardcore, mark the
start of a pattern that we would see for the
remainder of the band's career. Next two albums produced by
butch Vig nineteen eighty eight Century Days and the band's
final album, which was nineteen ninety one Cement. He also
produced the nineteen eighty ninety EP Going Away. Where does
(29:49):
the band go? Sonically on those last albums.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Man, it's interesting because, yeah, things definitely got more melodic,
but I would argue that the music also became more difficult,
you know, like hardcore is a brace of music, and
it's fast, but in some ways it's kind of easy
to listen to, Like you can sing along the minor
threat songs, you know what I mean, Like they have hooks,
(30:14):
they have choruses, you know, and you know, you can
be fast and you can even if you're maybe not
into like how abrasive the vocals or whatever, you can like,
you know, po go around and have a good time.
It's fun, Like hardcore is fun music, you know. It's
like early eighties American hardcore is fun music. And I'm
not saying it's necessarily happy music, but it's fun. And
(30:36):
once you get darker and maybe dothier and a little
bit more dissonant, you can still be singing. But in
some ways the music can become a little bit more difficult.
And I think what we talked about earlier, where it's
just like, you know, they influenced a bunch of people,
but they maybe never were able to get to that
next level. And I think one of the reasons why
they never made that full break into the mainstream, I
(30:58):
think a they couldn't find them major label that wanted
to give them the kind of creative control that they wanted.
But b they didn't you know, labels didn't really know
what to do with them because they were like straddling
a lot of lines. They sort of were kind of metally,
but they're kind of post punky and kind of goth,
and you know, especially at that time, like labels're like, well,
(31:19):
who do we sell this to?
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Right?
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Would it be fair to compare them to Jane's addiction
prior to james Addiction becoming big because metal.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Yeah, I mean I guess it's like, uh, similar ingredients
making two different meals.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
I could see that.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
And they were a little they were a little ahead
of their time to where.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Ahead of their time, But at least James Addiction got
you know, I mean they had hits. I mean like
you know, eventually eventually the James says and didn't caught
steal and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
But you know, but at first, it was like what
are we going to do with this?
Speaker 3 (31:55):
Because it's not one thing right, It's like people don't
know how to they don't know who to sell it
to or how to sell it, right, And I think
that was definitely part of it. But you know, the
you brought up earlier, like the gone Away, Yeah, like
that to me is a song writing achievement. Yes, that
to me is the best song that they wrote.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
That is a yep, say that's my favorite song.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Absolutely, me too, Me too.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
It's a fantastic song, and I think it really covers
all the ground that that band covered, minus the super fast.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Speed of hardcore. But it's it's.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Really kind of beautiful and melancholy, and it's in three
or four time, has this kind of rolling quality and
has wonderful There's all these different like guitar hooks and
then you know and Dan singing wonderfully. But even then
he has to take it to the screen. He has
to scream just for a little bit, right, So it's
like it's a super melodic song and then it's just
(32:52):
like it just you know, left turns of these kind
of really like his kind of signature tortured pain to
kind of scream. But it's such a wonderful song. It's
three minutes long, you know, in a in an alternate universe.
To me, that's that's a modern rock radio head.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Absolutely. When I first heard it, and I was telling
you before we recorded that, I was I knew of
the band, knew the name, but really didn't listen to
a whole lot of the music, and as this has
happened so many times to this podcast. After reading a book,
I listened to the music and I more often than
not fall in love with the band. And I've done
it with this band. And when I've heard Gone Away
for the first time, I'm like, how, how the fuck this?
(33:29):
How does the song just skip past so many people?
Because it is Yeah, it's just the timing of it.
If it was a couple of years later.
Speaker 3 (33:38):
Yeah, I mean I've said, like, well, you know, their
last album, Cement, you know, was recorded and released in
ninety one, and I think you know, they released Gone
Away as a EP because it had been a little
bit since they put out something new, and Touch and
Go was like, maybe we should do et or something
like that.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
But what's cool is, by the way, we mentioned Aerosmith
that Gone Away. The next track is Seasons of Whather.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
There are Seasons of Whether right, which is a great,
great right. It's a great cover. But I think if
they would have saved Gone Away for the Cement album
and had that been like the single off that record,
I think maybe it would have gotten a little bit
more more people would have heard it. You know, because
I mean the timing of Cement is so interesting because
(34:20):
right before they made Cement, Butch had finished you'd wrap
up work on the first Smashing Pumpkins record, Gish and
then either right before or maybe after or maybe like
he started working on Cements and then finished it later,
but he Butch had gone to La to Sound City
to go make Nevermind.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Is that crazy?
Speaker 2 (34:41):
And so the timing of it is so it's so
wild right to think about.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
You know, There's there's this article that was in Hit
Parader in I think ninety two or early ninety two,
and it was one of those like, you know, forty
of the blah blah blahs to blah blah blah, right,
and I think it was like forty alternative metal bands
to watch in the year ninety two or something like that,
and on the front page Smashing Pumpkins, Afghan Whigs to Kretzin,
(35:06):
you know, and it's like, so, I.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Mean, they were right there, you know. Yeah, Like, you know, I.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
Think maybe one of the reasons why they didn't break
through is you know, maybe labels didn't know what to
do with them, but also like they were maybe a
little bit too difficult to break into the mainstream, you
know records.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
You said in the book wanted to sign them right
after they broke up.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
After they had split. Myke Getter, who went on to
sign so many great bands. Myke Getter is such a
rad dude and has done so much awesome stuff. I mean,
he signed he ended up signing Jawbox to Atlantic and
signing a lot of great bands from the underground and
you know, giving them the resources to make you know,
these kind of bigger records. And I mean, I love
that record Jawbox made for Atlantic as a savory to
(35:44):
me again, should have been a top forty hit.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
I don't know why I wasn't.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
In my universe, that is a top forty hit, you know,
but yeah's just a little bit too late. And you
know there, I of course, like there is a little
bit of like the what if factor in that book,
like well what if?
Speaker 2 (35:58):
And you know, we'll never know.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
But you know, I think if anything, they maybe would
sign a major label, make a record that they wanted
to make, and I mean maybe more people would have
heard it, but not enough to please the major label.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Booked on rock Podcasts. We'll be back after this.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
I'm gonna need some flyers and uh set a thirty
W eight ball bearings.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Black Fred gets here before I'm back, you.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Can tell him to start without me.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Hell you need ball bearings. Fo Oh, come on, guys,
it's so simple. Maybe you need a refresher course.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Hey, it's all ball bearings nowadays. Hey, guys, thanks so
much for checking out the Booked on Rock podcast. If
you've just found the podcast, welcome. If you've been listening,
thank you so much for your support, and make sure
you tell a friend, a family member, share on social
media and let people know about Booked on Rock, And
(36:49):
if you do like the podcast, make sure you subscribe
give a five star review. Wherever you listen to the
Booked on Rock podcast, run Amazon, Apple, iHeart, Spotify, Speaker,
tune in in on YouTube music. You can check out
the full episodes on video, along with video highlights from
episodes on the Booked on Rock YouTube channel. Find it
at Booked on Rock. Thanks again for listening. Now back
(37:11):
to the show. Here's the quote from Vig in the
book about when he first saw the band. This says
it all. It was psychedelic rock, it was punk, it
was almost metal at points, and yet they had this
great pop sensibility to their songs as well. So he
saw something there. He saw what he saw in Nirvana.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
I mean, Butcher Vig is a pop guy through and through,
and he calls himself with sub sub proclaimed pop geek
is what he says, and so I mean he and
he's the guy to bring hooks out at Peopball, you know,
I mean the jump from Bleach to Nevermind is a
very big jump.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Obviously the production played a big role in it.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
And obviously there's not that many songs on Bleach that
are as hooky as the stuff on never Mind, but
you know, Butcher really brought out those melodic elements. And
then Andy Wallace, you know, who's known for mixing like Slayer,
made it just sound and super heavy. So then you
have these really heavy pop songs and it appeals to
the aggressive music crowd, but it also appeals to people
who maybe have never heard Sonic Youth or Dinosaur Junior
(38:09):
or whoever else. Right, And you know, had they been
able to make another record with Butch, who knows, but
you know, we'll never know.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Yeah, they broke up in ninety two.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
They broke up in ninety two, Vic but Vig.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Says he told you that, yeah, there were internal battles
with some conflict going on there while they were recording Cement,
but he didn't think they were going to break up.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
What led to the breakup, it's nothing really interesting.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
They just they got to the point where there's like,
you know, we're we're playing, you know, we're touring all
the time, and we're touring more than we're at home.
You know, the audiences aren't necessarily getting any bigger. In
some cases, maybe they're getting a little bit smaller, you know,
and they just I think they just felt.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Like, you know, like we don't really know like where.
Speaker 3 (38:53):
We fit in a sense, like they would played a
nicer sized audience when you know, Bansic Sonic Youth could
take them out of the road, but then when they
would go out on their own again, it'd be like
we all over playing to you know, one hundred people
on hundred fifty people.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
My feeling is listening to the music and seeing where
music went and seeing how big Nirvana got. If you
put them out on the road, open for Nirvana for
a little while, there build up that following next thing.
You know, I think they're headlining their own gigs mtvs
picking up on them radios. Modern rock radio is getting big.
You know, wait a year or two.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
I think at that point, like being affiliated with Nirvana
was definitely helpful. You know, he helped the Melvins get signed,
and you know, like you know, people were now turned
onto bands like the Beans of the Wipers or whatever else.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
But you know, and then even like you know, they.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
Took Jawbreaker on on tour for what ten days, and
that resulted in Jawbreaker becoming like a you know, the
quorded by major labels, you know, the sort of unsignable band.
Eventually you know, they signed to a major label, right,
but who's to say? You know, I know, Kurt Cobain
was a fan. He he he wrote about He mentions
them in his journals and it wasn't it wasn't like
(40:03):
in one of those lists, but he was. It was
like a letter he wrote some buzz from the Melbyns
and it was or maybe a letter he didn't send
a buzz, I don't know, but there was definitely something
in there where he said, have you heard the new
dey Kreitzen album? So it was at least the band
he was aware of and I think. I mean, he
was a Kurt was a huge touching records guy, right.
He loved Big Black and Scratch Acid and all that stuff.
(40:24):
So I'm sure he at least knew those records. I'm
it's pretty safe to say he liked them. But I can't,
you know, make that assumption. I know Dave Girl is
a big fan for sure, but you know, I'd say,
if you were into touch and go bands at that time,
I think most people who were around for that era
of touch and go they like Decroitson.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Well, this book will get some exposure for the band
as well, don't say please the Oral History of De
Creuzen and it's out now. You can find it wherever
books are sold and look forward at your nearest bookstore.
Go to bookdown rock dot com to find your nearest
independent bookstore. And where could people find you online? To
hunh uh? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (40:59):
So you can follow me me on Instagram. I have
an Instagram page for the book. It's just at Decroitzen
book and that's kind of just where I post just
like just stuff about the band and then just like
updates in terms of like events and stuff that I'm
doing for the book and that's kind of the best
way to figure out, you know, everything that's you know,
going on with this book right now.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
So Han, thanks man, thanks for just sneaking in this
interview coming back from that very cool trip to a
part of rock and roll history.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
So I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me.
This is wonderful, So thank you so much for taking
the time to talk to me.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
And you're doing me a favor here.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Cool. That's it. It's in the books.
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