July 23, 2023 • 31 mins
Thirteen years ago, author Nina Antonia wrote the cult bible of all things Johnny Thunders with her book Johnny Thunders: In Cold Blood. It’s the definitive portrait of the condemned man of rock and roll, from the baptism of fire and tragedy that was the New York Dolls, through the junkie punk years of the Heartbreakers, to his sudden and mysterious death in 1991. A brand-new edition was released this week, adding a new closing chapter, bringing Thunders’ legacy up to date with new photos and a foreword by Mike Scott of The Waterboys. Nina is about to tell you all about it in this episode!
Purchase a copy of Johnny Thunders: In Cold Blood: The Official Biography: Revised & Updated Edition through Jawbone Press HERE
Listen to a playlist of The New York Dolls, Johnny Thunders & The Heartbreakers, and Johnny Thunders solo HERE
Find Nina Antonia online at her official website HERE
Follow Nina Antonia on Twitter HERE
Visit the Booked On Rock Website HERE
Watch exclusive video segments from the Booked On Rock podcast HERE
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Contact The Booked On Rock Podcast: thebookedonrockpodcast@gmail.com The Booked On Rock Music: “Whoosh” by Crowander / “Last Train North” & “No Mercy” by TrackTribe
Purchase a copy of Johnny Thunders: In Cold Blood: The Official Biography: Revised & Updated Edition through Jawbone Press HERE
Listen to a playlist of The New York Dolls, Johnny Thunders & The Heartbreakers, and Johnny Thunders solo HERE
Find Nina Antonia online at her official website HERE
Follow Nina Antonia on Twitter HERE
Visit the Booked On Rock Website HERE
Watch exclusive video segments from the Booked On Rock podcast HERE
Follow The Booked On Rock with Eric Senich:
TIKTOK
Support Your Local Bookstore! Find your nearest independent bookstore HERE
Contact The Booked On Rock Podcast: thebookedonrockpodcast@gmail.com The Booked On Rock Music: “Whoosh” by Crowander / “Last Train North” & “No Mercy” by TrackTribe
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Oh, we're totally booked in rockand roll. I think I'll leave you.
You're reading Little Hands. It's timeto rock and roll, bag rollout.
We are totally booked. Welcome backto Booked on Rock, the podcast
for those about to read and rockonline. At booked on rock dot com,
(00:23):
the exclusive videos, blogs, linksto all of the social media sites
including Facebook, Twitter, Instagram,and TikTok. You find every episode of
Booked on Rock there, along withlinks to your favorite listening platforms. Thirteen
years ago, author Nina Antonia wrotethe cult bible of all things Johnny Thunders
with her book Johnny Thunders in ColdBlood. It's the definitive portrait of the
(00:46):
condemned man of rock and roll,from the baptism of fire and tragedy that
was the New York Dolls, throughthe junkie punk years of the Heartbreakers to
his sudden and mysterious death in nineteenninety one. A brand new edition has
just been released, adding a newclosing chapter, bringing Johnny thunders legacy up
to date, with new photos anda forward by Mike Scott of the Waterboards
(01:07):
and Nina's here to Talk all aboutIt. A playlist of Johnny Thunders,
including The New York Dolls, TheHeartbreakers, and Johnny Thunders Solo. I'm
a show notes page. Hi Nina, Welcome to the podcast. Hello,
good to be here. This bookwas originally released back in nineteen eighty seven,
so we know all about this book. It's it's the authorized biography of
(01:30):
Johnny Thunders. And if what Iread is correct, this was your first
book. Yes, okay, innineteen eighty seven was, but it was
revised in nineteen ninety two when Johnnydied and okay to Cherry Red. But
now it looks absolutely beautiful with anew edition. And I was getting asked
(01:51):
pretty much every month for copies andthe weren't Jenny the cherry red one,
the cherry Red deal. It's stoppedthat it's sold out, and apparently it
was also one of the most searchedout for books on Amazon. Yeah,
I'm not surprised. How did thatfirst edition all come together? What inspired
you to write it initially? Well? I was a huge Johnny Thumders friend
(02:12):
and a book about Iggy had justcome out. Could I need more?
With Anne? Were her I thinkher name was, And yeah, I
just thought there should be a bookhere. About Johnny Thumders, but nobody
had written one, so I thoughtthat I'd better do it then, because
because he was an enigma to me, though I was stuck in Manchester at
(02:34):
the time and Liverpool and there wasonly tiny amounts of press about him at
that point. This brand new,updated edition includes a new closing chapter forward
by Mike Scott of the water Boys, and some new photos beautifully put together
by job On Press. In MikeScott's forward, he writes about you being
the perfect person to tell Johnny's story. You knew Johnny, You observed his
(02:54):
life with fandom, understanding, compassion, and detachment. When did you first
discover Johnny Thunders and what was yourrelationship like with him before? In after
the book, Oh gosh, Ifirst discovered Johnny in the pages of sixteen
Magazine and the New York Dolls justbefore the first album was due to come
out. Do you remember You probablydon't remember sixteen Magazine. I do remember.
(03:19):
Let's see who. I was bornin seventy two, so I do
remember the magazine. Yeah, Soit's an American magazine and it was kind
of aimed for a very young femaleaudience, but occasionally because they were more
interesting than the sort of English teenybook press. They'd have Stooges in there,
or less Cooper or Roxy music,things that you wouldn't have expected.
(03:40):
And in amongst that were the NewYork Dolls. And I just thought the
photograph of them, and in particularJohnny just looked like the essence of what
I thought rock and roll should bewhen I was thirteen. You know,
when you're that age, you Idon't know, you can look at a
picture of a band and I couldhonest imagine what they would sound like.
(04:00):
Yeah, well that and that's that'sthe thing that's missed Nowadays. With the
Internet, you can see everything rightaway, and especially live shows, a
lot of that mystery has been takenaway too. That's the mistique of rock
and roll. Great pity because italso enabled people like David Bowie to kind
of grow up a little bit hiddenbefore he was ready to make his grand
presentation on the world. But peopleneed mystique, Us dolls need mistique.
(04:26):
Yeah, absolutely, I totally agree. We need our We need our rock
stars is what we need. Andnow with social media too, that's the
other thing. We know everything that'sgoing on with these public figures and the
less I think, the less youknow is better in terms of that mystique.
I absolutely agree with you. Howlong they've with the Gretic Garboe method,
Oh yeah, he has absolutely Howmany times did you see the band
(04:47):
performed the New York Dolls, andJohnny though I didn't, I didn't set
to see the Dolls perform because Iwas just that bit too young. That's
right, because they weren't together forthat long. No, and funny story
is that they did. The Dollsdid play in Liverpool with the first lineup
with Billy Mercier, and they weredue to play it at a venue called
(05:09):
the Stadium, which was really oftenready supporting lou Reid, and then lou
Reid had a tantrum and didn't wantthem to go on, so so they
almost but didn't quite play Liverpool.And then with the Anarchy Tour, you
know, some of the dates werevetoed by all these morality groups because punk
was thought to be the next bigbedevilments upon children. So they had all
(05:34):
the posts printed to help for theAnarchy Tour and the Heartbreakers, but the
gig was pulled again. What's interestingabout Johnny stories that he was, as
you write, both polite and insulting, charismatic and insular. As a child,
he was shy, but he wasalso a live wire. Can you
give us a brief backstory of Johnny, where he's from and what his childhood
days were like. He was achild of the fifties. His father wasn't
(05:57):
in the picture that much, rightwhat he was a child of the fifties.
But his older sister Mary Anne lovedthe girl groups and they were very
important to the new yet dolls andto Johnny the sort of purity of it.
And Johnny always sang Shanghi Lars songs, given a great big kissing that
beautifully. So that was the nineteenfifties, and I think Johnny always retained
(06:19):
purity of that era and in whathe was doing as a rocker, and
say the mode of Jean Vincent alreadyCochrane. So he grew up in Queens.
Unfortunately, his father was a womanizerand he left Johnny's mother to sort
of to be a single mother.When I met Johnny, I was also
(06:42):
a single mother, and I thinkit made him warm to me, actually
more than than if I had justbeen some cold professional male journalist. At
that point, I had to bringmy daughter with me to one of the
earliest meetings and he broke the ice. What was it a story about him
getting his tonsils out and he didnot want to go, but eventually he's
(07:05):
putting on the Elvis impression. Yeah, that was That was his sister Mary
Antelmie. So obviously he was bornto rock. You know. He got
his first little toy guitar and everything, and he was in a group called
the Rain when he was at school. They looked very kind of cabaret when
you look at them, like theywould be ready to play Bombits was some
(07:27):
weddings and everything. That's why hewas a big Elvis guy. He also
Keith Richards was the other thing.Yeah, Keith Preith Richards was the other
thing. But I think I methis old sports coach that I went to
stay with Johnny's sister in Queen's.He's very much the kind of hometown hero
in a way, kind of likea legend. He went to a ton
(07:48):
of shows in New York as ateen too. There's the story in the
book about hanging with the rock starsand hotels and mentioned Keith Richards. He
took on Keith's cigarette packet, isthat? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,
they were in the same bar.And the book is probably also an interesting
book at how what gigs teenagers weregoing to in the sort of late sixties
(08:09):
early seventies, and Johnny was verymuch influenced by English rock and rolled as
well, so all the English bandswere playing in New York. So yeah,
he was a gig fixture. Inlistening to the Dolls, I can
hear it now after reading the book, I can hear the influence of Keith
on Journey's style. It's also disposedto the thing where he's in the audience
(08:31):
that you know the film give mebecause I was going to ask you about
that. He's I didn't know thatuntil reading the book. I mean,
it's it's always been, is it, isn't it? Silvainstead it was,
And I have to say, itreally looks like him, and he's messing
with his her as as Jacky goes, you know, hello New York.
Oh yeah, he's got a distinctlook. So when you do it a
side by side, I think somebodydid that on the web and it's him.
(08:54):
It's gotta be Yeah, now Idid that on video. Did you
okay, blowing it and just yeah, that's Johnny. When and how did
the New York Dolls Forum, Well, actually it bombed in two to separate
camps. There was Sylvaine and hisbest friend Billy Mercier, and there was
Arthur Caane and his power Rick Rivets, and they were just, I don't
(09:16):
know, just hanging out. Billyand Sylvane saw Johnny at school and thought
he was the coolest thing ever.But then so did Arthur Cane and Rick
Rivets. So it sort of grewup around that group of people. But
Sylvaine and Billy had a clothing thing, so they concentrated on that. But
(09:37):
by I think it's at the winterof seventy two, they were already gigging,
but not with the band as weknow it. And I love band
name origin story. So the bandgets its name from an actual doll repair
shop. Oh yeah, there wasa New York Dolls hospital across the road
from where they rehearsed. But italso has that it hits the sort of
(09:58):
trashy aspect of Valley of the Dollsas well, which is very appealing.
Yes, absolutely all. That's whyit's amazing that it's an actual name of
a place, because it just seemedlike something that you'd come up with,
and it's perfect, perfect Johnny Gonzale, Is that what he was? Is
that how you pronounced Gonzali, JohnnyGonzali, So he becomes Johnny Thunders.
(10:20):
He thought about being Johnny Volume.How did he come up with the last
name Thunders? Oh? Because itwas a comic book, you know,
Johnny Thunders wild West here, Heroof the wild West. But the people
often talk about, you know,the Kinks song to say mentioned a character
called Johnny Thunder, indeed the betweenPreservation Society, but that wasn't the source.
(10:43):
You quote the late Sable star inthe book she moved in with Johnny
during those early days of the NewYork Dolls. She said. There was
an innocence about him, but thenhe turned hardcore twenty joints today and opium.
He was doing heroin kind of likea Jacklin Hide thing. He told
a journalist in an interview you thatyou transcribe for the book, that it
all started innocently. He was somewhatevasive. He says, he was just
(11:05):
another board kid, you know,just looking to feel alive. Do you
think he was self medicating? Wasit that shy side of him that he
was trying to suppress. Yeah,I think so. I mean, when
the Dolts first started, he wouldplay with his back to the audience.
He was so shy. And alsohe got himself into a state with no
fan passing me into me. Hetook tons of it, so he would
(11:28):
have been looking for something to bringhim down at that point. But I
do think he will stop medicating.He was a very wounded human being.
People have more insight these days aboutwhy drugs are taken and the effects of
them. Yeah, it's interesting yousay that neither, because I actually have
an interview this week with there's abook that's it's either out now or it's
(11:52):
coming out soon, Touring in MentalHealth and Music Industry Manual, and it's
well, you know, doctor's mentalhealth doctor and they all put together their
stories even and they have actual musiciansand their experiences and just how to survive
that world. I mean, it'sa lot of people when you especially when
you're talking about when you're young,when we're kids, you think it's just
the coolest thing to be a rockstar, and it is, but there
(12:16):
you have to you have to knowwhat you're in for. Because it's there's
there's some certainly some you know,some dangers that are out there and the
people that you meet, and itcan start innocently, that's really and then
it catches up with you and thenit's too late. But also at that
point to Johnny from his perspective,seeing people say like Keith Richard story,
(12:41):
he pope, they would have appearedto glomarize it for him exactly. Yeah.
Well that's the other thing. Yeah, yeah, the sex, drugs,
rock and roll. It's cool.That's that's what you do, especially
if you're mixed up kid. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What ultimately led
to him quitting the New York Dollsin nineteen seventy five, there was there
was an odd final string of showsright where he who were wearing red leather.
(13:03):
This was their manager's idea. Ithink it was. Yeah, mismanagement
was at the core of it.And I think the Dolls split into two
halves and Johnny and Jerry Nolan piledup and in David and Sylvan were on
the other side. And David andJohnny had been the original songwriting team,
(13:24):
not that they were short of material, but the Midwest did not take to
the New York Dolls. They didn'tunderstand them, and the Dolls management team
were also managing Aerosmith, and everySmith managed to watch the Dolls but make
the music and the stunts kind ofmore watered down. They were ordinary boys
(13:48):
just wearing these high heels. Theyweren't exotic and slightly dangerous. So the
Midwest took to Aerosmith in a waythat they didn't to the Dolls. We've
got all the major cities with thefashion people and stuff like that. Yeah,
and that's what's interesting about that firstalbum in particular. It didn't sell
(14:09):
well, but it's considered one ofthe most influential albums in rock history.
That's the strangest thing about I mean, even as a Kiss fan, I
just listened to an episode of apodcast where they talk about what would Kiss
be if the Dolls didn't exist,because the Kiss was influenced by the Dolls.
In fact, their first look wasa New York Dolls type of look,
and they realized, we can't dothe Dolls like the Dolls do it,
and so they went with the facepaint and all that. But yeah,
(14:33):
but they got their name from lookingfor a Kiss. Ye. But
yeah, I mean there's just soinfluential the New York Dolls, and and
yet I don't know the numbers onthe sales of that first album, but
it wasn't it wasn't great, right, No, But it's probably like the
felt of the underground great sales.But you know, thirty forty years later,
(14:54):
the cultural relevance is finally understood.So Johnny and drummer Jerry and they
quickly formed the Heartbreakers, and theyjust as quickly became one of the most
popular underground bands in New York Cityand led that first wave of punk rock.
The Heartbreakers lasted about five years.There's a great interview in your book
with Lee black Childer as he managedthe band. You asked him if there
(15:16):
was any way to avoid the disintegrationof that band. What did he have
to say about why it ended,and if in fact it could have been
avoided. I think there was alwaysa volatility around john and Jerry. I
mean, they were not people whocould be tamed, which is one of
the things that gave them an excitingedge. The trouble was that the deal
(15:39):
that they signed wasn't particularly savvy,because they thought that they were signing to
the whose label Track, but infact Track was in the middle of some
legal shenanigans with the former managers,and the Dolls actually signed to one of
the whose former managers, Chris Stamp. That really didn't bode well, but
they met. They were again hugelypopular in London. All the English punks
(16:04):
looked up to them because they'd adoredthe New York Dolls. It's more co
Cloni said that people people weren't wearingthe motorcycle jackets in sort of punk bands
until Johnny showed up with his wearinga leather jacket as a motorcycle jacket.
The Book Down Rock Podcasts will beback after this. Are you an author
(16:27):
or a publisher with a rock basedbook to promote? If so, the
Bookdown Rock Podcast is looking for guestspromote the mall I say send an email
to the Bookdown Rock Podcast at gmaildot com. That's the Bookdown Rock Podcast
at gmail dot com, or youcan contact the podcast through the bookdown Rock
website bookdown rock dot com. Ithink it's your new book, and be
(16:48):
sure to keep us in a loopfor any upcoming book releases related to rock
and roll. It took Guts.I'm promoting you Nina Antonia as our guest.
Her highly cleaned book In Whole Blood, the official biography of Johnny Thunders,
has been released in a new updatededition to photos, an additional final
chapter, and new forward by MikeScott, lead singer of the Water Boys.
(17:08):
Johnny never stopped recording and touring ashe moves on into the eighties,
but the drug use continued. Chapternine titled ask Me No Questions. It's
an interview you did with Johnny forthis book. You asked him if he
thought his career in life would haverun a bit smoother without Heroin. What
did he have to say about that? What was his response? Well,
he always said he could play justas well without Heroin as with it,
(17:32):
but he was not. He didn'tcope emotionally. That was his thing.
Well, that was what I observed, even as a young person. He
was too at odds with himself andreally quite insecure. Because that didn't stop
him being a brilliant rocker, becausehe brought that edginess to the stage.
(17:52):
There were times when he would actlike he was high if he just didn't
want to talk to somebody, Sohe used as a sort store and some
people, I mean I remember thattime well, because he had a German
manager, Christopher, and he gotonto a MetaDONE program in France and was
really trying to He had his Swedishgirlfriend then, who would very much loved.
(18:18):
But he was beaten up by theFrench police just through being a junkie
walking down the street. I meanhe was doing anything bad, but that
really sets him back. When youasked him about his heroine, he was
he was comfortable with you. Sodid you feel any any reservations asking it?
Did you feel like maybe he would? Ah? No, But it
took age, of course, ittook ages and ages. And actually his
(18:41):
girlfriend sees Anne set up the interviewbecause I just said, you know how,
I need to get one interview withJohn. It's all very well for
me doing it in an observational way, which is what he'd asked for,
and I appreciated that. But wedid get there and it was not one
of the one of the run upthe meal interviews either. It's you know,
(19:02):
because he doesn't use any stock answersin it. Yeah, that's the
thing that's so impressive. Well again, I think that goes back. He
felt comfortable with you. He openedup a little bit more with you than
he would with others, maybe,though he did have a very bad cold
that day, so he was hewas quite a trooper. But it was
been a good day because he wasin the studio in Denmark Street. He
(19:23):
was doing demos and he had MikeMonroe and Sti Basses into backing vocals.
Patty Paladin worked extensively with him duringhis Heartbreakers days and solo days. She
told you that the obsession with hisdeath plays such a major role in his
career, so much so that itwas gauged by it. How did Johnny
feel about death? I wonder howhe really felt about death. Did he
(19:47):
fear it, was he preoccupied withit, or did he just not care?
Just got he just got on withit. But he was wise enough
to know that certain people, Ithink it's one of his sons is the
only way you get expect is whenyou're dead. So he kind of knew
that. But he didn't sit therethinking about daddy. He looked at everything
(20:07):
from a sense of being a reallypure rocker and you know, loving his
mother, and his mother loved him, and he was a homeboy in some
ways. I just think unfortunately hisdruggies put him on a treadmill of having
to gig and gig and gig andgig just to feed the habits. Unfortunately,
there is a term you use inthe book that I found interesting,
(20:30):
and he applied it to Johnny selfsabotaging, big gig syndrome. What's the
big gig syndrome? When he didgigs and he didn't really care about the
venue or anything like that, hewas superb and he really related to the
audience and he'd have the best timeever. But if there was a gig
where he knew that there was agentscoming down and new labels, he'd drink
(20:55):
on top of everything. He justwould go into a meltdown. And he
was very unfortunate because it meant thatpeople weren't seeing him when he was really
fantastic. He's a very human figure. I think that's what makes them so
interesting, because we've both self sabotagedthings, haven't we. I was gonna
say, self sabotaging is something weall do. It's it's I guess it's
(21:17):
a self esteem thing, like sometimesdo we feel we deserve something? You
know, do we Is this somethingthat I should be if I got something
good? I don't know if Ican, if I can accept this.
The only gig of Johnny So thatI ever ran away from was the huge
one in London and he was reallylaid out on stage, and I knew
that all the press was there,and it was, you know, once
(21:38):
supposedly one of these important shows,and oh he was such a mess when
he came out. I just hukmy head in my hands. But because
I thought so bad for him.Yeah, well that's the thing too.
People forget with these public figures rockstars, There's a human being in there,
and a lot of times it justbecomes They're like, well we've seen
it with a lot of musicians too. They're in a place that they really
(22:00):
shouldn't bet and be out there,but they're pushed out there on the road
for money reasons. I think Iwould like, you know, if I
watched the sort of last gigs ofEnemy Winehouse, that tragic. Oh yeah,
the name Jerry Garcia comes to mindbecause I remember when he towards the
end there, it was like,why is he out there? He doesn't
look good, like his head ishanging down. He's just like he's barely
standing. And I'm a big vanHalen Fan. I remember and Eddie struggling
(22:26):
in the early two thousands and Iwent to see him on a tour and
you couldn't even recognize the songs hewas playing, and it's like, why
is he even out there? Butyou know why, money and all these
people make money off of them,and they're like a commodity more than a
human being. And I wonder nowthese days, I suppose the business hopefully
is different with the way they approachedthat, because man, I remember I
(22:48):
was there was an author talking aboutyour eye heap, you wrote a book
on and back in the early dayswhen they just toured night after night.
To be a band member that brokehis hand or something, and they just
said, no time for the emergencyroom. We just got to get out
there and play. And it waslike, you know, it's just it's
sad. And like you say,he needed the money from touring because the
album sales weren't like that of anarrow smith, you know. So that's
(23:14):
how he made his money, that'show he made his living. But he
was absolutely adored in certain places.You know. He was walked down the
street in Paris, walked down thestreet in Japan, walked down the street
in London and it was like thesteam from a montc. Did you get
the feeling he enjoyed being famous orwas he uncomfortable with fame. I don't
(23:34):
think she thought about fame really.I think he was more like an old
blues guy that has to keep goingand trying to look as much of a
dandy as he could. And he'sabout being cool. Yeah, and he
was. He was. He diedin New Orleans April twenty third, nineteen
ninety one. He was thirty eight, and rumors around his death wasn't an
(23:56):
overdose, was a foul play,And you get into it in the book,
you right, quote from the momentJohnny Thunders vanished beyond the departure gate
on April twenty second, nineteen ninetyone. His exact movements become harder to
substantiate, so he gets on thatflight headed for New Orleans. I believe
you're saying the book that he wantedto start over. Well, he'd gone
to rehab. He'd gone to Hazeldonbecause of his sister and some of his
(24:19):
friends really wanting him to go there. But he unfortunately left early because he
couldn't cope with the therapeutic side ofit, I think was too painful.
But he had a few maybe amonth or so, of being clean.
But he'd always since about nineteen seventyeight, talked about going to New Orleans
and getting a kind of New Orleansreview, as in, you know,
(24:44):
ten piece band with backing vocalists.So that's primarily why he went out,
and because Willie Taville had had somesuccess in New Orleans as well. New
Orleans is dangerous too, because that'sone of my favorite bands came out of
the nineties, was Blind Melon andShannon Huon. He died in New Orleans,
and they were saying that that's probablythe last place he should have been
to try to get clean and sober, because that place is just constant party,
(25:08):
party, party, all the time. So I'm sure there are a
lot of temptations surrounding him. Andapparently there was this sort of evil wave
of people knowing that Johnny was inNew Orleans as well, and how could
they profit from that exactly. Andpart of me has also thought, you
know, like cats kind of crawlaway to die. He was very ill,
(25:30):
he was very weak. He mustknow that he was not in a
good place helped. Wise, Jerryhad tried to convince him to go into
hospital. Jerry Deeton said, Iwill stay, I will sleep over,
you know, I'll make sure you'reall right. But he didn't. He
went. He played Japan, wherehe was absolutely adored, and then he
(25:55):
traveled on to New Orleans where hedied. He had a substantial amount of
money on him, so he hadthese big glad saddle bags where he tended
to put all his money into it. That you know, that was ram
stacked. Anythink of any worth inthe room was ramsacked. I personally don't
think that he was murdered. Ithink people enjoy making up conspiracy theories,
(26:18):
but certainly he wasn't helped. Heshould have an ambulance should have been called
for him. There's the story thathe had leukemia too. That was something
that showed up. I mean,I've read the coroner's report and that points
to it being kemia from everything thatthe corona found, but they didn't do
(26:41):
enough tests really day, and ifhis sister even got a private detective to
try and find out more and theycouldn't, I think his sister said,
well, the New Orleans police thought, oh, this is just another junkie
John Doe on a Saturday night.That's moved this as long as fast as
possible. Yeah, that's the problemis there's a lot of a lot of
people that are hanging out there,and he overdosed, likely overdoses, and
(27:03):
then the people that were there werejust like they just said, he didn't
overdose. Though he did not overdose, he didn't not have enough drugs in
his body for it to be anoverdose. That that's one thing that is
obvious. On the coroner's report,they were called how much the odd drugs
in the body? But it actuallystays but it's not of an overdoseable level.
(27:27):
Because he was he was dying becausehe was ill. You have to
Kimia. There was somebody who saidthey heard sounds coming through the walls of
Johnny's room. There were people inthe stealing things or Johnny's final death throws.
It's just too painful to think about. The worst thing to meat is
that he died by himself without anybodyto hold his hand. Is really attractic.
(27:51):
Well, there is an additional lastchapter in your book, and you
say this will be the final versionof the book. And for listeners who
either have the original edition or aregoing to buy a copy of this for
the first time. What's in thatchapter that you can tell us? And
what do you hope that that lastchapter will serve the readers and fans of
Johnny Thunders in terms of telling hisstory. Oh, that's that's a very
(28:11):
hard one to say, he mightbe able to say, but I just
wanted to really checkle the subject ofaddiction and that as Johnny as an older
person, really did not want tofollow the same route that he had.
And also all the beautiful things inthe world that he missed by dying young.
(28:32):
Name he's got absolutely lovely children andgrandchildren, all the people who would
have loved him. If somebody hasn'theard or just only heard a little bit
of The Dolls or his solo work, what do you recommend? And I
know that first album by the Dollsis always the probably at the top of
the list, But he's got somegreat work that he did as a solo
artist too with the Heartbreakers. Ohwhy don't I mean I like Hurt Me,
(28:56):
but I like all of it.I say, the first Dolls album
and the first Top Breaker's album andso alone, and just the list goes
on We're not sure of wonderful material. But I think the other thing that
I say in the final chapter isthat his stuff wasn't just out and out
rock and roll, was also,you know, a more introspective side on
(29:18):
him. In some ways, Iguess Johnny died like how he would have
wanted to live the awful live bastdie young thing. And but it's still
a tragedy. If you had topick a favorite song or a song that
defines him, oh you know whichone that would be. You can't put
your owns around them. Memory.I was listening to a ton of dolls
(29:41):
just getting ready for the interview,and man, and I gotta but I
gotta listen to more of his workwith you know, after the Dolls,
because like I say, it's verygood, it's not I get there are
some some of the dolls in therein that sound, but he's kind of
going off into his own directions.He's doing something. I mean, the
best on the second album, TooMuch, Too Soon is Chatterbox. I
(30:04):
love that. That tells you kindof where he's moving forward to. And
because that was his solo song andhe really had to like to sing that.
David Johansson was like, what amI supposed to do? Play at
tambourine while he's singing? And yeahhe was anyway the brain new edition of
In Cold Blood, the Official biographyof Johnny Thunders. It's out now through
(30:26):
job and perhaps available wherever books aresold. And is there anywhere people can
find you online if they want toreach out to Nina? Oh yeah,
I have a website which is NinaAntonia Author and I'm on Twitter at Nina
Antonia thirteen. Excellent, very verymuch. This isn't really enjoyable to talk
to you. Unfortunately. It's avery rainy jay in London where you are.
(30:52):
Oh well, it's just we justended a heatwave here in New England
here in the US, and boy, I could wear you down. We
welcome the rain here, I tellyou. But yeah, London, boy,
I'd love to go to London oneday. I've never been. Really,
did you love it too? Givesme cool? Absolutely on the sorts
of places that Johnny would have visited. Kind a tool. Oh man,
(31:12):
that'd be cool. Well, Igot your email, I'll reach out take
care of YouTube. That's it.It's in the books.
Oh, we're totally booked in rockand roll. I think I'll leave you.
You're reading Little Hands. It's timeto rock and roll, bag rollout.
We are totally booked. Welcome backto Booked on Rock, the podcast
for those about to read and rockonline. At booked on rock dot com,
(00:23):
the exclusive videos, blogs, linksto all of the social media sites
including Facebook, Twitter, Instagram,and TikTok. You find every episode of
Booked on Rock there, along withlinks to your favorite listening platforms. Thirteen
years ago, author Nina Antonia wrotethe cult bible of all things Johnny Thunders
with her book Johnny Thunders in ColdBlood. It's the definitive portrait of the
(00:46):
condemned man of rock and roll,from the baptism of fire and tragedy that
was the New York Dolls, throughthe junkie punk years of the Heartbreakers to
his sudden and mysterious death in nineteenninety one. A brand new edition has
just been released, adding a newclosing chapter, bringing Johnny thunders legacy up
to date, with new photos anda forward by Mike Scott of the Waterboards
(01:07):
and Nina's here to Talk all aboutIt. A playlist of Johnny Thunders,
including The New York Dolls, TheHeartbreakers, and Johnny Thunders Solo. I'm
a show notes page. Hi Nina, Welcome to the podcast. Hello,
good to be here. This bookwas originally released back in nineteen eighty seven,
so we know all about this book. It's it's the authorized biography of
(01:30):
Johnny Thunders. And if what Iread is correct, this was your first
book. Yes, okay, innineteen eighty seven was, but it was
revised in nineteen ninety two when Johnnydied and okay to Cherry Red. But
now it looks absolutely beautiful with anew edition. And I was getting asked
(01:51):
pretty much every month for copies andthe weren't Jenny the cherry red one,
the cherry Red deal. It's stoppedthat it's sold out, and apparently it
was also one of the most searchedout for books on Amazon. Yeah,
I'm not surprised. How did thatfirst edition all come together? What inspired
you to write it initially? Well? I was a huge Johnny Thumders friend
(02:12):
and a book about Iggy had justcome out. Could I need more?
With Anne? Were her I thinkher name was, And yeah, I
just thought there should be a bookhere. About Johnny Thumders, but nobody
had written one, so I thoughtthat I'd better do it then, because
because he was an enigma to me, though I was stuck in Manchester at
(02:34):
the time and Liverpool and there wasonly tiny amounts of press about him at
that point. This brand new,updated edition includes a new closing chapter forward
by Mike Scott of the water Boys, and some new photos beautifully put together
by job On Press. In MikeScott's forward, he writes about you being
the perfect person to tell Johnny's story. You knew Johnny, You observed his
(02:54):
life with fandom, understanding, compassion, and detachment. When did you first
discover Johnny Thunders and what was yourrelationship like with him before? In after
the book, Oh gosh, Ifirst discovered Johnny in the pages of sixteen
Magazine and the New York Dolls justbefore the first album was due to come
out. Do you remember You probablydon't remember sixteen Magazine. I do remember.
(03:19):
Let's see who. I was bornin seventy two, so I do
remember the magazine. Yeah, Soit's an American magazine and it was kind
of aimed for a very young femaleaudience, but occasionally because they were more
interesting than the sort of English teenybook press. They'd have Stooges in there,
or less Cooper or Roxy music,things that you wouldn't have expected.
(03:40):
And in amongst that were the NewYork Dolls. And I just thought the
photograph of them, and in particularJohnny just looked like the essence of what
I thought rock and roll should bewhen I was thirteen. You know,
when you're that age, you Idon't know, you can look at a
picture of a band and I couldhonest imagine what they would sound like.
(04:00):
Yeah, well that and that's that'sthe thing that's missed Nowadays. With the
Internet, you can see everything rightaway, and especially live shows, a
lot of that mystery has been takenaway too. That's the mistique of rock
and roll. Great pity because italso enabled people like David Bowie to kind
of grow up a little bit hiddenbefore he was ready to make his grand
presentation on the world. But peopleneed mystique, Us dolls need mistique.
(04:26):
Yeah, absolutely, I totally agree. We need our We need our rock
stars is what we need. Andnow with social media too, that's the
other thing. We know everything that'sgoing on with these public figures and the
less I think, the less youknow is better in terms of that mystique.
I absolutely agree with you. Howlong they've with the Gretic Garboe method,
Oh yeah, he has absolutely Howmany times did you see the band
(04:47):
performed the New York Dolls, andJohnny though I didn't, I didn't set
to see the Dolls perform because Iwas just that bit too young. That's
right, because they weren't together forthat long. No, and funny story
is that they did. The Dollsdid play in Liverpool with the first lineup
with Billy Mercier, and they weredue to play it at a venue called
(05:09):
the Stadium, which was really oftenready supporting lou Reid, and then lou
Reid had a tantrum and didn't wantthem to go on, so so they
almost but didn't quite play Liverpool.And then with the Anarchy Tour, you
know, some of the dates werevetoed by all these morality groups because punk
was thought to be the next bigbedevilments upon children. So they had all
(05:34):
the posts printed to help for theAnarchy Tour and the Heartbreakers, but the
gig was pulled again. What's interestingabout Johnny stories that he was, as
you write, both polite and insulting, charismatic and insular. As a child,
he was shy, but he wasalso a live wire. Can you
give us a brief backstory of Johnny, where he's from and what his childhood
days were like. He was achild of the fifties. His father wasn't
(05:57):
in the picture that much, rightwhat he was a child of the fifties.
But his older sister Mary Anne lovedthe girl groups and they were very
important to the new yet dolls andto Johnny the sort of purity of it.
And Johnny always sang Shanghi Lars songs, given a great big kissing that
beautifully. So that was the nineteenfifties, and I think Johnny always retained
(06:19):
purity of that era and in whathe was doing as a rocker, and
say the mode of Jean Vincent alreadyCochrane. So he grew up in Queens.
Unfortunately, his father was a womanizerand he left Johnny's mother to sort
of to be a single mother.When I met Johnny, I was also
(06:42):
a single mother, and I thinkit made him warm to me, actually
more than than if I had justbeen some cold professional male journalist. At
that point, I had to bringmy daughter with me to one of the
earliest meetings and he broke the ice. What was it a story about him
getting his tonsils out and he didnot want to go, but eventually he's
(07:05):
putting on the Elvis impression. Yeah, that was That was his sister Mary
Antelmie. So obviously he was bornto rock. You know. He got
his first little toy guitar and everything, and he was in a group called
the Rain when he was at school. They looked very kind of cabaret when
you look at them, like theywould be ready to play Bombits was some
(07:27):
weddings and everything. That's why hewas a big Elvis guy. He also
Keith Richards was the other thing.Yeah, Keith Preith Richards was the other
thing. But I think I methis old sports coach that I went to
stay with Johnny's sister in Queen's.He's very much the kind of hometown hero
in a way, kind of likea legend. He went to a ton
(07:48):
of shows in New York as ateen too. There's the story in the
book about hanging with the rock starsand hotels and mentioned Keith Richards. He
took on Keith's cigarette packet, isthat? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,
they were in the same bar.And the book is probably also an interesting
book at how what gigs teenagers weregoing to in the sort of late sixties
(08:09):
early seventies, and Johnny was verymuch influenced by English rock and rolled as
well, so all the English bandswere playing in New York. So yeah,
he was a gig fixture. Inlistening to the Dolls, I can
hear it now after reading the book, I can hear the influence of Keith
on Journey's style. It's also disposedto the thing where he's in the audience
(08:31):
that you know the film give mebecause I was going to ask you about
that. He's I didn't know thatuntil reading the book. I mean,
it's it's always been, is it, isn't it? Silvainstead it was,
And I have to say, itreally looks like him, and he's messing
with his her as as Jacky goes, you know, hello New York.
Oh yeah, he's got a distinctlook. So when you do it a
side by side, I think somebodydid that on the web and it's him.
(08:54):
It's gotta be Yeah, now Idid that on video. Did you
okay, blowing it and just yeah, that's Johnny. When and how did
the New York Dolls Forum, Well, actually it bombed in two to separate
camps. There was Sylvaine and hisbest friend Billy Mercier, and there was
Arthur Caane and his power Rick Rivets, and they were just, I don't
(09:16):
know, just hanging out. Billyand Sylvane saw Johnny at school and thought
he was the coolest thing ever.But then so did Arthur Cane and Rick
Rivets. So it sort of grewup around that group of people. But
Sylvaine and Billy had a clothing thing, so they concentrated on that. But
(09:37):
by I think it's at the winterof seventy two, they were already gigging,
but not with the band as weknow it. And I love band
name origin story. So the bandgets its name from an actual doll repair
shop. Oh yeah, there wasa New York Dolls hospital across the road
from where they rehearsed. But italso has that it hits the sort of
(09:58):
trashy aspect of Valley of the Dollsas well, which is very appealing.
Yes, absolutely all. That's whyit's amazing that it's an actual name of
a place, because it just seemedlike something that you'd come up with,
and it's perfect, perfect Johnny Gonzale, Is that what he was? Is
that how you pronounced Gonzali, JohnnyGonzali, So he becomes Johnny Thunders.
(10:20):
He thought about being Johnny Volume.How did he come up with the last
name Thunders? Oh? Because itwas a comic book, you know,
Johnny Thunders wild West here, Heroof the wild West. But the people
often talk about, you know,the Kinks song to say mentioned a character
called Johnny Thunder, indeed the betweenPreservation Society, but that wasn't the source.
(10:43):
You quote the late Sable star inthe book she moved in with Johnny
during those early days of the NewYork Dolls. She said. There was
an innocence about him, but thenhe turned hardcore twenty joints today and opium.
He was doing heroin kind of likea Jacklin Hide thing. He told
a journalist in an interview you thatyou transcribe for the book, that it
all started innocently. He was somewhatevasive. He says, he was just
(11:05):
another board kid, you know,just looking to feel alive. Do you
think he was self medicating? Wasit that shy side of him that he
was trying to suppress. Yeah,I think so. I mean, when
the Dolts first started, he wouldplay with his back to the audience.
He was so shy. And alsohe got himself into a state with no
fan passing me into me. Hetook tons of it, so he would
(11:28):
have been looking for something to bringhim down at that point. But I
do think he will stop medicating.He was a very wounded human being.
People have more insight these days aboutwhy drugs are taken and the effects of
them. Yeah, it's interesting yousay that neither, because I actually have
an interview this week with there's abook that's it's either out now or it's
(11:52):
coming out soon, Touring in MentalHealth and Music Industry Manual, and it's
well, you know, doctor's mentalhealth doctor and they all put together their
stories even and they have actual musiciansand their experiences and just how to survive
that world. I mean, it'sa lot of people when you especially when
you're talking about when you're young,when we're kids, you think it's just
the coolest thing to be a rockstar, and it is, but there
(12:16):
you have to you have to knowwhat you're in for. Because it's there's
there's some certainly some you know,some dangers that are out there and the
people that you meet, and itcan start innocently, that's really and then
it catches up with you and thenit's too late. But also at that
point to Johnny from his perspective,seeing people say like Keith Richard story,
(12:41):
he pope, they would have appearedto glomarize it for him exactly. Yeah.
Well that's the other thing. Yeah, yeah, the sex, drugs,
rock and roll. It's cool.That's that's what you do, especially
if you're mixed up kid. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What ultimately led
to him quitting the New York Dollsin nineteen seventy five, there was there
was an odd final string of showsright where he who were wearing red leather.
(13:03):
This was their manager's idea. Ithink it was. Yeah, mismanagement
was at the core of it.And I think the Dolls split into two
halves and Johnny and Jerry Nolan piledup and in David and Sylvan were on
the other side. And David andJohnny had been the original songwriting team,
(13:24):
not that they were short of material, but the Midwest did not take to
the New York Dolls. They didn'tunderstand them, and the Dolls management team
were also managing Aerosmith, and everySmith managed to watch the Dolls but make
the music and the stunts kind ofmore watered down. They were ordinary boys
(13:48):
just wearing these high heels. Theyweren't exotic and slightly dangerous. So the
Midwest took to Aerosmith in a waythat they didn't to the Dolls. We've
got all the major cities with thefashion people and stuff like that. Yeah,
and that's what's interesting about that firstalbum in particular. It didn't sell
(14:09):
well, but it's considered one ofthe most influential albums in rock history.
That's the strangest thing about I mean, even as a Kiss fan, I
just listened to an episode of apodcast where they talk about what would Kiss
be if the Dolls didn't exist,because the Kiss was influenced by the Dolls.
In fact, their first look wasa New York Dolls type of look,
and they realized, we can't dothe Dolls like the Dolls do it,
and so they went with the facepaint and all that. But yeah,
(14:33):
but they got their name from lookingfor a Kiss. Ye. But
yeah, I mean there's just soinfluential the New York Dolls, and and
yet I don't know the numbers onthe sales of that first album, but
it wasn't it wasn't great, right, No, But it's probably like the
felt of the underground great sales.But you know, thirty forty years later,
(14:54):
the cultural relevance is finally understood.So Johnny and drummer Jerry and they
quickly formed the Heartbreakers, and theyjust as quickly became one of the most
popular underground bands in New York Cityand led that first wave of punk rock.
The Heartbreakers lasted about five years.There's a great interview in your book
with Lee black Childer as he managedthe band. You asked him if there
(15:16):
was any way to avoid the disintegrationof that band. What did he have
to say about why it ended,and if in fact it could have been
avoided. I think there was alwaysa volatility around john and Jerry. I
mean, they were not people whocould be tamed, which is one of
the things that gave them an excitingedge. The trouble was that the deal
(15:39):
that they signed wasn't particularly savvy,because they thought that they were signing to
the whose label Track, but infact Track was in the middle of some
legal shenanigans with the former managers,and the Dolls actually signed to one of
the whose former managers, Chris Stamp. That really didn't bode well, but
they met. They were again hugelypopular in London. All the English punks
(16:04):
looked up to them because they'd adoredthe New York Dolls. It's more co
Cloni said that people people weren't wearingthe motorcycle jackets in sort of punk bands
until Johnny showed up with his wearinga leather jacket as a motorcycle jacket.
The Book Down Rock Podcasts will beback after this. Are you an author
(16:27):
or a publisher with a rock basedbook to promote? If so, the
Bookdown Rock Podcast is looking for guestspromote the mall I say send an email
to the Bookdown Rock Podcast at gmaildot com. That's the Bookdown Rock Podcast
at gmail dot com, or youcan contact the podcast through the bookdown Rock
website bookdown rock dot com. Ithink it's your new book, and be
(16:48):
sure to keep us in a loopfor any upcoming book releases related to rock
and roll. It took Guts.I'm promoting you Nina Antonia as our guest.
Her highly cleaned book In Whole Blood, the official biography of Johnny Thunders,
has been released in a new updatededition to photos, an additional final
chapter, and new forward by MikeScott, lead singer of the Water Boys.
(17:08):
Johnny never stopped recording and touring ashe moves on into the eighties,
but the drug use continued. Chapternine titled ask Me No Questions. It's
an interview you did with Johnny forthis book. You asked him if he
thought his career in life would haverun a bit smoother without Heroin. What
did he have to say about that? What was his response? Well,
he always said he could play justas well without Heroin as with it,
(17:32):
but he was not. He didn'tcope emotionally. That was his thing.
Well, that was what I observed, even as a young person. He
was too at odds with himself andreally quite insecure. Because that didn't stop
him being a brilliant rocker, becausehe brought that edginess to the stage.
(17:52):
There were times when he would actlike he was high if he just didn't
want to talk to somebody, Sohe used as a sort store and some
people, I mean I remember thattime well, because he had a German
manager, Christopher, and he gotonto a MetaDONE program in France and was
really trying to He had his Swedishgirlfriend then, who would very much loved.
(18:18):
But he was beaten up by theFrench police just through being a junkie
walking down the street. I meanhe was doing anything bad, but that
really sets him back. When youasked him about his heroine, he was
he was comfortable with you. Sodid you feel any any reservations asking it?
Did you feel like maybe he would? Ah? No, But it
took age, of course, ittook ages and ages. And actually his
(18:41):
girlfriend sees Anne set up the interviewbecause I just said, you know how,
I need to get one interview withJohn. It's all very well for
me doing it in an observational way, which is what he'd asked for,
and I appreciated that. But wedid get there and it was not one
of the one of the run upthe meal interviews either. It's you know,
(19:02):
because he doesn't use any stock answersin it. Yeah, that's the
thing that's so impressive. Well again, I think that goes back. He
felt comfortable with you. He openedup a little bit more with you than
he would with others, maybe,though he did have a very bad cold
that day, so he was hewas quite a trooper. But it was
been a good day because he wasin the studio in Denmark Street. He
(19:23):
was doing demos and he had MikeMonroe and Sti Basses into backing vocals.
Patty Paladin worked extensively with him duringhis Heartbreakers days and solo days. She
told you that the obsession with hisdeath plays such a major role in his
career, so much so that itwas gauged by it. How did Johnny
feel about death? I wonder howhe really felt about death. Did he
(19:47):
fear it, was he preoccupied withit, or did he just not care?
Just got he just got on withit. But he was wise enough
to know that certain people, Ithink it's one of his sons is the
only way you get expect is whenyou're dead. So he kind of knew
that. But he didn't sit therethinking about daddy. He looked at everything
(20:07):
from a sense of being a reallypure rocker and you know, loving his
mother, and his mother loved him, and he was a homeboy in some
ways. I just think unfortunately hisdruggies put him on a treadmill of having
to gig and gig and gig andgig just to feed the habits. Unfortunately,
there is a term you use inthe book that I found interesting,
(20:30):
and he applied it to Johnny selfsabotaging, big gig syndrome. What's the
big gig syndrome? When he didgigs and he didn't really care about the
venue or anything like that, hewas superb and he really related to the
audience and he'd have the best timeever. But if there was a gig
where he knew that there was agentscoming down and new labels, he'd drink
(20:55):
on top of everything. He justwould go into a meltdown. And he
was very unfortunate because it meant thatpeople weren't seeing him when he was really
fantastic. He's a very human figure. I think that's what makes them so
interesting, because we've both self sabotagedthings, haven't we. I was gonna
say, self sabotaging is something weall do. It's it's I guess it's
(21:17):
a self esteem thing, like sometimesdo we feel we deserve something? You
know, do we Is this somethingthat I should be if I got something
good? I don't know if Ican, if I can accept this.
The only gig of Johnny So thatI ever ran away from was the huge
one in London and he was reallylaid out on stage, and I knew
that all the press was there,and it was, you know, once
(21:38):
supposedly one of these important shows,and oh he was such a mess when
he came out. I just hukmy head in my hands. But because
I thought so bad for him.Yeah, well that's the thing too.
People forget with these public figures rockstars, There's a human being in there,
and a lot of times it justbecomes They're like, well we've seen
it with a lot of musicians too. They're in a place that they really
(22:00):
shouldn't bet and be out there,but they're pushed out there on the road
for money reasons. I think Iwould like, you know, if I
watched the sort of last gigs ofEnemy Winehouse, that tragic. Oh yeah,
the name Jerry Garcia comes to mindbecause I remember when he towards the
end there, it was like,why is he out there? He doesn't
look good, like his head ishanging down. He's just like he's barely
standing. And I'm a big vanHalen Fan. I remember and Eddie struggling
(22:26):
in the early two thousands and Iwent to see him on a tour and
you couldn't even recognize the songs hewas playing, and it's like, why
is he even out there? Butyou know why, money and all these
people make money off of them,and they're like a commodity more than a
human being. And I wonder nowthese days, I suppose the business hopefully
is different with the way they approachedthat, because man, I remember I
(22:48):
was there was an author talking aboutyour eye heap, you wrote a book
on and back in the early dayswhen they just toured night after night.
To be a band member that brokehis hand or something, and they just
said, no time for the emergencyroom. We just got to get out
there and play. And it waslike, you know, it's just it's
sad. And like you say,he needed the money from touring because the
album sales weren't like that of anarrow smith, you know. So that's
(23:14):
how he made his money, that'show he made his living. But he
was absolutely adored in certain places.You know. He was walked down the
street in Paris, walked down thestreet in Japan, walked down the street
in London and it was like thesteam from a montc. Did you get
the feeling he enjoyed being famous orwas he uncomfortable with fame. I don't
(23:34):
think she thought about fame really.I think he was more like an old
blues guy that has to keep goingand trying to look as much of a
dandy as he could. And he'sabout being cool. Yeah, and he
was. He was. He diedin New Orleans April twenty third, nineteen
ninety one. He was thirty eight, and rumors around his death wasn't an
(23:56):
overdose, was a foul play,And you get into it in the book,
you right, quote from the momentJohnny Thunders vanished beyond the departure gate
on April twenty second, nineteen ninetyone. His exact movements become harder to
substantiate, so he gets on thatflight headed for New Orleans. I believe
you're saying the book that he wantedto start over. Well, he'd gone
to rehab. He'd gone to Hazeldonbecause of his sister and some of his
(24:19):
friends really wanting him to go there. But he unfortunately left early because he
couldn't cope with the therapeutic side ofit, I think was too painful.
But he had a few maybe amonth or so, of being clean.
But he'd always since about nineteen seventyeight, talked about going to New Orleans
and getting a kind of New Orleansreview, as in, you know,
(24:44):
ten piece band with backing vocalists.So that's primarily why he went out,
and because Willie Taville had had somesuccess in New Orleans as well. New
Orleans is dangerous too, because that'sone of my favorite bands came out of
the nineties, was Blind Melon andShannon Huon. He died in New Orleans,
and they were saying that that's probablythe last place he should have been
to try to get clean and sober, because that place is just constant party,
(25:08):
party, party, all the time. So I'm sure there are a
lot of temptations surrounding him. Andapparently there was this sort of evil wave
of people knowing that Johnny was inNew Orleans as well, and how could
they profit from that exactly. Andpart of me has also thought, you
know, like cats kind of crawlaway to die. He was very ill,
(25:30):
he was very weak. He mustknow that he was not in a
good place helped. Wise, Jerryhad tried to convince him to go into
hospital. Jerry Deeton said, Iwill stay, I will sleep over,
you know, I'll make sure you'reall right. But he didn't. He
went. He played Japan, wherehe was absolutely adored, and then he
(25:55):
traveled on to New Orleans where hedied. He had a substantial amount of
money on him, so he hadthese big glad saddle bags where he tended
to put all his money into it. That you know, that was ram
stacked. Anythink of any worth inthe room was ramsacked. I personally don't
think that he was murdered. Ithink people enjoy making up conspiracy theories,
(26:18):
but certainly he wasn't helped. Heshould have an ambulance should have been called
for him. There's the story thathe had leukemia too. That was something
that showed up. I mean,I've read the coroner's report and that points
to it being kemia from everything thatthe corona found, but they didn't do
(26:41):
enough tests really day, and ifhis sister even got a private detective to
try and find out more and theycouldn't, I think his sister said,
well, the New Orleans police thought, oh, this is just another junkie
John Doe on a Saturday night.That's moved this as long as fast as
possible. Yeah, that's the problemis there's a lot of a lot of
people that are hanging out there,and he overdosed, likely overdoses, and
(27:03):
then the people that were there werejust like they just said, he didn't
overdose. Though he did not overdose, he didn't not have enough drugs in
his body for it to be anoverdose. That that's one thing that is
obvious. On the coroner's report,they were called how much the odd drugs
in the body? But it actuallystays but it's not of an overdoseable level.
(27:27):
Because he was he was dying becausehe was ill. You have to
Kimia. There was somebody who saidthey heard sounds coming through the walls of
Johnny's room. There were people inthe stealing things or Johnny's final death throws.
It's just too painful to think about. The worst thing to meat is
that he died by himself without anybodyto hold his hand. Is really attractic.
(27:51):
Well, there is an additional lastchapter in your book, and you
say this will be the final versionof the book. And for listeners who
either have the original edition or aregoing to buy a copy of this for
the first time. What's in thatchapter that you can tell us? And
what do you hope that that lastchapter will serve the readers and fans of
Johnny Thunders in terms of telling hisstory. Oh, that's that's a very
(28:11):
hard one to say, he mightbe able to say, but I just
wanted to really checkle the subject ofaddiction and that as Johnny as an older
person, really did not want tofollow the same route that he had.
And also all the beautiful things inthe world that he missed by dying young.
(28:32):
Name he's got absolutely lovely children andgrandchildren, all the people who would
have loved him. If somebody hasn'theard or just only heard a little bit
of The Dolls or his solo work, what do you recommend? And I
know that first album by the Dollsis always the probably at the top of
the list, But he's got somegreat work that he did as a solo
artist too with the Heartbreakers. Ohwhy don't I mean I like Hurt Me,
(28:56):
but I like all of it.I say, the first Dolls album
and the first Top Breaker's album andso alone, and just the list goes
on We're not sure of wonderful material. But I think the other thing that
I say in the final chapter isthat his stuff wasn't just out and out
rock and roll, was also,you know, a more introspective side on
(29:18):
him. In some ways, Iguess Johnny died like how he would have
wanted to live the awful live bastdie young thing. And but it's still
a tragedy. If you had topick a favorite song or a song that
defines him, oh you know whichone that would be. You can't put
your owns around them. Memory.I was listening to a ton of dolls
(29:41):
just getting ready for the interview,and man, and I gotta but I
gotta listen to more of his workwith you know, after the Dolls,
because like I say, it's verygood, it's not I get there are
some some of the dolls in therein that sound, but he's kind of
going off into his own directions.He's doing something. I mean, the
best on the second album, TooMuch, Too Soon is Chatterbox. I
(30:04):
love that. That tells you kindof where he's moving forward to. And
because that was his solo song andhe really had to like to sing that.
David Johansson was like, what amI supposed to do? Play at
tambourine while he's singing? And yeahhe was anyway the brain new edition of
In Cold Blood, the Official biographyof Johnny Thunders. It's out now through
(30:26):
job and perhaps available wherever books aresold. And is there anywhere people can
find you online if they want toreach out to Nina? Oh yeah,
I have a website which is NinaAntonia Author and I'm on Twitter at Nina
Antonia thirteen. Excellent, very verymuch. This isn't really enjoyable to talk
to you. Unfortunately. It's avery rainy jay in London where you are.
(30:52):
Oh well, it's just we justended a heatwave here in New England
here in the US, and boy, I could wear you down. We
welcome the rain here, I tellyou. But yeah, London, boy,
I'd love to go to London oneday. I've never been. Really,
did you love it too? Givesme cool? Absolutely on the sorts
of places that Johnny would have visited. Kind a tool. Oh man,
(31:12):
that'd be cool. Well, Igot your email, I'll reach out take
care of YouTube. That's it.It's in the books.
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