The Enduring Legacy of Fleetwood Mac's 'Rumours' [Episode 343]

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Almost five decades later, it's the only classic rock album
that continues to gain new generations of fans, top streamings
and sales charts. Alan Light is the author of a
brand new book. He's gonna explain why millions of fans
still love Fleetwood Max Rumors. We're totally booked rock and roll.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
I mean, I'll leave you. You're reading. Little Hands says
it's time to rock and roll, roll Out.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
I totally booked. Welcome back to book don Rock, the
podcast for those about to read and rock. Americ Senach
very excited to talk to this episode's guest, Alan Light.
He's the author of Don't Stop Why We Still Love
Fleetwood Max Rumors. Alan, thanks so much for coming on
the show.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
Of course, Eric, my pleasure, Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
This is interesting. The focus of the book is on
what makes Rumors stand out among other classic albums. In
twenty twenty three was the most streamed album of the
twentieth century on Spotify Dreams more than two billion plays.
And I was just saying before we started recording, there's
an article I just saw that I think it topped
another Spotify chart, beat out Taylor Swift.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
I think in sales, yeah, and Billboard just put their
year chart up and it was the last year, twenty
twenty four. It was the biggest selling rock album on
the Billboard charts Old or New twenty twenty five. I
guess they combined rock and alternative to one chart, so
it was number three behind Billie Eilish and Noah Khan

(01:33):
New Records, you know, new Ish Records. Certainly for something
that is almost fifty years old, a really extraordinary thing
to see that it continues to retain this level of popularity,
this level of sales and streams. And that was really
what I wanted to look at in the book, was,
you know, sure, the story of the making of the

(01:53):
greatest soap opera of all time that we know rumors is,
but more than that, how does this thing continue to
live in the world. How does it continue to thrive
and to draw these new audiences, younger audiences and younger
listeners in a way that seems really different, really unique,

(02:14):
and really special, particularly compared to its peers in the
classic rock canon.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
And beyond statistics, you have your son that you provided
some context, right, talk about that.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, well, starting from not just you know, my son
is a big music fan and that's one kind of thing.
But it was when he was in high school a
few years back that I just noticed when his you know,
if his friends were over or whatever, it was, that
they were all aware of rumors. They all knew something

(02:47):
about this record. They had some relationship to it as
an album as a body of work. Maybe didn't know
every song on it, whatever it was, but they were
not interested in California Born to Run. These were old
records to them, those were not relevant to their lives now.

(03:08):
But rumors continued to be something that they listened to.
It seemed like the way that they listened to pop records,
that it was something that spoke to them, something that
connected for them. Looking you know, then, as you mentioned
at the stats and seeing, yeah, okay, this is not
some isolated phenomenon that I happened to be observing, but

(03:30):
is backed up by these numbers and by what listening
habits really seemed to indicate. And then sort of peeling
back beyond that to think about all of the different
ways that it has continued to appear and to regenerate
in the culture, whether that was the guy on the
skateboard with the cranberry juice that was the big explosive

(03:54):
TikTok moment in twenty twenty, whether it was the All
Rumors episode of Glee, whether it was Daisy Jones and
the Six, the book, or the TV series that it
just felt like every few years there was something that
was contributing to reintroducing these songs and again connecting those

(04:15):
Some of these are happening, the TikTok things, God knows
why they happen. They happen because people discover and respond
to them. But the others, the placements and the you
know and the series that are designed out of these stories,
that's because people continue to love this music, love this story,
love everything around it, and people know that there's an

(04:39):
audience that still wants to be part of that. So
looking at the stories of each of those events and
incidents along the way, as well as sort of looking
under the hood at these numbers. Talking to a whole
bunch of post millennials. I think I talked to about
thirty under thirty about their relationship to the album, how

(05:02):
they discovered it, what it means to them. Two producers
who could talk better than I could about the sound
of this album and the creation and the assembly of
these songs, it looks there seemed to be a lot
of different ways in to you know, look at the

(05:22):
continued life around this project and what a special story
it really is.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
You break down each track and how it's perceived by
the younger audience today and why it stands up and
which songs it's interesting, there's there's one or two that
do okay with the younger generation. But it is true
about the way the album starts. It's not what you're
going to normally hear on a huge, commercially successful album

(05:47):
with secondhand news, right, And that's that is interesting in itself,
just the way they decided to start it off.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
It's funny here. And you mentioned that the sort of
center of the book is going song by song, and
a lot of those were matching up the these stories.
I mean, for the Dreams chapter, I knew I was
going to talk about the guy on the skateboard and
the TikTok explosion around that song and then around this album.
So about half of them were very easy to figure out, Okay,
this story goes with this song. And then some of

(06:16):
them were themes that I knew or stories that I
knew I wanted to address and which songs those might
line up with you mentioned and we can come back
to it. Oh Daddy is kind of the least loved
song on this album. But because Christine McVey wrote that
song for Mickfleetwood and about his role as the sort
of father figure in the band and the one of

(06:36):
them who was a parent at the time, I knew
somewhere I wanted to write about Mick and about the
rhythm section, and okay, I could do that within that
song that works. The hardest one to figure out was
Secondhand News, which is the opening track on the album,
because there isn't any other placement or other usage or

(06:57):
some other place in the in the world world where
that song has reappeared. But what I realized thinking about
it is how, you know, completely different it is from
the opening song on any other album. That's the kind
of mega blockbuster album that rumors is. You know. Appetite

(07:19):
for Destruction opens with Welcome to the Jungle. Thriller opens
with want to be Starting something you know? Zeppelin four
opens with rock can' roll like big statement, mission statement
kind of songs for those albums. Here's the ride we're
going on. Let me tell you how we're kicking this
thing off and secondhand news is this kind of little

(07:42):
you know, it starts on a fade in and it's
kind of a not fully finished song. I mean clearly
when he's singing the about bout like there should be
a guitar solo the there that they just will just
do this, we'll just sort of scat sing through it.
So it was the chance to sort of come in
backwards and write about Obviously it worked. The album is

(08:05):
one of them. It's the seventh biggest selling album of
all time. It continues to be embraced in the ways
that it does. It's not like it doesn't connect with people,
but in a very very different way than anything else
sort of in its peer group and how they everything
else kind of explodes out of the gate and this
kind of sneaks up on you a little bit.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
Yeah, a head fake, a trojan horse as you call it. Yeah,
And it's interesting that one person says it's a good,
perfect song to bite two. It's interesting what people get
out of these songs.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, well, I mean lots of I think that, you know,
in some ways the most interesting thing for me talking
to these younger listeners in particular, I think if it's
you know, for those of us who grew up in
real time with Rumors, I think that we cannot help
but look at it through the lens of the anger,

(08:58):
the tension, the craziness of the sessions, everything that is happening,
you know, backstage, off stage as they are writing and
recording these songs. Anytime there's a list of the greatest
breakup albums of all time, Rumors pins the number one
spot on those lists. But when you talk to the
people who are born twenty years after the album came out,

(09:22):
I think they hear a lot of really different things.
I think if they didn't have that experience, you know,
virtually all of them said, I don't think about this
as a breakup record. I would never think of it.
I mean, sure there's angry stuff on there, but I
think they hear you make love and fun and the
beginning of a relationship as much as they hear go

(09:45):
your own way and the sort of breakup, as much
as they hear the chain and the sense that are
you know, you're never really done with a person. They're
a part of your life that you carry forward sort
of whether you want to or not. They're still you know,
a part of your experience, and I think particularly for
young people who are going through their first relationships, their

(10:06):
first heartbreaks, that spectrum of emotions is really what connects
with them rather than just the chaos and the anger
around it, which I just didn't hear them keying into
the same way. So you get a lot of I
listened to it when I wake up in the morning,
when I'm getting ready for school, or before I go

(10:27):
out with my friends, or when I'm running or when
I'm biking. It's a much more you know, engaged in
sort of warm connection to these songs than I think
what we bring to it. Remembering the time and all
the baggage that it had with as it was happening.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
Isn't that amazing? Because I was born in seventy two,
so I'm part of the VH one behind the music
right crowd, you know, and I listened I'd watched that special.
I knew about the songs, but that got me listening
to the album because of you know, because of the
drama that was happening within the band along with the songs.
But yeah, it's interesting how it's coming to this new

(11:06):
generation and how it's presented to them.

Speaker 2 (11:08):
You know, and listen. There were kids I talked to
who are like, we're theater kids. We love the drama.
We're super into all the lore and the story and
the soap opera, and we follow all that. There were
others some almost resented it and said, I don't like
that that gets in the way of listening to the record,
that I have to think about that stuff. I just
want to be able to listen to the songs. And

(11:29):
there were some who really didn't. There was one girl
I spoke to and said, when did you find out
about all of the so the craziness and the soap
opera and all that stuff, And she said, right now
when you just asked me, I don't know anything about
any of that. And that has nothing to do with
why I listen to this record or you know what

(11:49):
I think about these songs. I don't know about any
of that stuff. So there's a really wide range of
what their you know what the relationship to the narrative is.
The drama is either connected to or not to the music.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
I think this book is important for those in the
marketing business and the record business to really understand how
do you how do you market these albums? To a
younger audience, because this is all like unintentional marketing. These
are things that are just happening by accident. Because I
actually I worked with somebody in his twenties and he
was telling me about he knew about Aerosmith, and then

(12:26):
I was shocked. And as you can see behind me,
I'm a huge Van Hailin fan. He goes, uh, he says, yeah,
it wasn't Van hill in the band with a brown
M and M story. I'm like, how how did that
even come to you? How do you even know about it?
Did you find it out on YouTube? Like where?

Speaker 2 (12:39):
You know?

Speaker 1 (12:39):
I don't even know where they're receiving this.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
Some some things just become whatever, you know, and a
lot of the rumors, I mean, look, some of the
you know, the placement stuff that using the chain and
Guardians of the Galaxy and things like that, they're at
least intent may be intentional on the part of the
film film. Yeah he's there, you know, but they're but
they're intentional. Some of them. The TikTok stuff, nobody knows

(13:05):
how that happens. I mean, how the that you know,
that confrontational moment in Silver Springs where you're talking about
where there was the you know that happened at the
reunion show in nineteen ninety seven, the dance that became
such a huge moment in the in the reintroduction of
Fleetwood Mac. But why within the last couple of years,

(13:26):
that moment of Steve Enix picking up the mic going
over at the end of Silver Springs, singing those lines
right into Lindsay Buckingham's face, that has become TikTok gold
and has almost become a moment that has intro you know,
been the introduction for a lot of kids to this album,
to this project, for a song that wasn't even on

(13:49):
the initial release of Rumors in the first place, and
yet has become inextricably part of that story.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah, you can't.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
You can't make that up.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
Being old school, I resist. I hate the idea that
with this podcast I do have to break down things
at a little minute long shorts and those get the
most views, then the ones that the long form and
even even maybe a ten minute video that is the
reality and if it works, it works, and film is
a huge vehicle for like you hear these songs all
the time in these movies, Marvel movies, But also television

(14:21):
like Glee played a role.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
Well, I used that in the chapter about never about
Never Going Back Again, because that was of that Glee
episode and there were a lot of you know again,
if it's the sweet spot for age, there were a
bunch of folks who, you know if they're sort of
in their mid to late twenties, where their introduction to
room they were watching Glee and their introduction to Rumors was,

(14:44):
you know, the first time that Glee did a full
episode or on one album was an all Rumors episode
that they did, and that was where a bunch of
those you know whatever, they were ten to twelve year
olds at the time, keyed into this album and a
lot of talked about that. The production of the Never
Going Back Again performance on the show is sort of

(15:06):
the most memorable. There was a sort of a production
number around the kid who was in the wheelchair where
he breaks up with the girlfriend and goes through the
hall singing that song and a bunch of guitarists sort
of gather behind him and they end up on the
stage with twenty guys playing acoustic guitars, and that was
a moment that really stuck for a bunch of these listeners,
but you know, whatever it was, they're all of these

(15:28):
different entry points in and that was a thing that
I'm paraphrasing a little, but I talked to a guy
named Michael Ozzuaro, who's a producer, works with Beyonce and
Frank Ocean and a bunch of sort of leading R
and B artists, and he kind of said, you know,
when you're the way that you have to compete for
attention now with the constant bombardment of input, that really

(15:53):
having multiple entry points is an important thing that you
might notice something over here, hear the song over here,
see a thing on tik tark, it's on TV, or
was in a movie trailer, and you sort of put together, oh,
I guess this is all that thing, and maybe I'll
give a listen to that thing. That it takes a
couple different spins of the wheel sometimes for things to connect.

(16:16):
And because rumors has all of these different ways in
for these kids. Maybe it's Taylor Swift talking about Stevie Nix.
Maybe it's Harry Styles, you know, inducting Stevie into the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, or covers that they've done,
or you see it in a film, or it's on
TikTok or you know, whatever it is that at a
certain point it becomes I guess this is a thing.

(16:36):
I should see what that's about, since it kind of
keeps coming up. He was pointing out what it means
that it can connect with you from all these different.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
Directions, many small pieces of the pie to make up
the pie now right where it used to be get
your song on the radio, Yeah, and tour tour, tour, tour,
and then it became MTV radio tour. But now it's
just splinter it off into all these different areas.

Speaker 2 (17:01):
But this is a thing that has, you know, woven
its way into all of this, you know, all of
these different media, all of these different ways in that
one way or another has continued to attract and continued
to you know, to find new listeners over and over again.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
Don't Stop is interesting that holds the unique position, you
say on rumors, it's the only song whose identity was
redefined by historical events. To talk about that, and how
much does the the younger generation did they even know
about the whole Bill Clinton?

Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah, I think that you know, the Bill obviously, Don't
Stop was sort of redefined recontextualized when it was Bill
Clinton's campaign theme in the in the nineteen ninety two election.
Certainly an interesting story how that came to pass. But
for purposes of these stories, I mean, a lot of
kids I was talking to were born well after that

(17:56):
or you know, at that time or whatever, have no
direct relation to direct memory or connection to that moment.
But first of all, it did show that the song
could take on this these new lives years after their release.
That was fifteen years after the album was out, and
that that did kind of set in motion the you

(18:21):
know what led to the reunion of the band, which
led to that performance that became The Dance, which was
then a big, huge success as a live album, ran
constantly on MTVVH one, and hey, put Fleetwood Mac just
back into the world, back into circulation, you know, brought

(18:42):
some of these songs back up, and also then in
interesting ways. You know, Taylor Jenkins Reid, who wrote Daisy
Jones and the Six, said that it was watching the
Dance performances when she was a kid and trying to
figure out this dynamic what was going on between Lindsay
and Stevee singing that Silver Springs performance singing Landslide and

(19:07):
trying to understand what chemistry is happening that gets you
to that moment. That was what inspired her to want
to write a story about a band like that. So
these things become these dominoes that fall are sort of
these dots that connect where you get the Bill Clinton

(19:28):
thing happening, gets the band back together, leads to this reunion.
That reunion leads to somebody wanting to write a book
understanding that moment, that gets a whole bunch of other
new listeners in. Plus out of that reunion comes this,
you know, years later, this TikTok thing that becomes its own,
you know, phenomenon. So the ways that these things continue

(19:52):
to feed off of each other and continue to sort
of echo through the years is such an interesting thing.
I mean, right before fast all this I was looking at,
you know, right before the re you the dance thing
happened in you know that's ninety seven ninety eight. Nineteen
ninety seven was sort of peak women in rock moment there.

(20:13):
It's the first Little Affair is ninety seven, and Rolling Stone,
where I used to work, put out a book that
year that was a sort of history of women in
rock book called Troubled Girls. And one day I was
looking at the shelf and I was like, well, let
me see what what was what would a book like
that have said about Fleetwood mac or said about Stevie
and Christine at that time? And I look in the

(20:34):
book and there's basically one paragraph about Stevie Nicks, sort
of in a chapter about like boho women, like she's
between Kate Bush and I don't know. PJ. Harvey, You're like,
here's sort of weird girls in rock, and that's it.
The words Christine McVie do not appear in that book.

(20:56):
So at that moment, sort of in between the Bill
Clinton thing and them actually getting back together, Fleetwood Mack
are kind of nowhere, you know, culturally, if you did
a history of women in rock book today, Stevie Nix
is on your cover right, like without hesitation, right, there
is no bigger female icon in rock history at this

(21:20):
moment than Stevie is. And again, talking to these younger listeners,
I think the gender mix and gender balance of the
band is something that's really important to them. I think
that they look at, you know, rock bands and see
five white guys with long hair and guitars and just

(21:40):
think that's my parents' band. They look at the Eagles
and just think that's got nothing to do with me.
But at a moment where the culture that certainly music
culture is so driven by Taylor and Beyonce and Sabrina
and Billy and really all of the most important figures
are these women, you know, making this amazing music right

(22:02):
now and really setting the direction and the tone for
listeners today. To look at this band that had not
just one girl singer up front sort of that configuration,
but these two women who are both lead singers songwriters,

(22:25):
a point that a lot of particularly young women made
to me, not put in competition with each other, but
clearly doing different things, writing different kinds of songs, and
respecting what that is and presented as equals and collaborators.
That's something that clearly rings out and is a much
easier way into a band for you know, for young

(22:50):
people today than looking at the sort of classic rock
composition of like what we think of as seventies rock bands.
That's something that that people brought up over and over again.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, and even Christine said, I understand that Stevie's the
She's the star. These seas of people that, you know,
I understand that I'll do my thing over here. I
have my role to play. But she's very underrated because
she carried that band during the lean years.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
I mean, and not just during the lean years, I mean.
Christine has the most writing credits on Rumors. But we
think of Rumors, Oh, it's the Stevie and Lindsay album.
Christine has more songs and more credits than any out
of the three of them. And if you look at
the Fleetwood Mac Greatest Hits record, it's half Christine McVie songs,

(23:35):
half Stevie or Lindsay songs. She's got as much as
the other two combined on the Greatest Hits record. So
a little more quietly, not that she isn't going through
crazy drama as her marriage is falling apart during the
Rumor sessions too, but maybe not historically, you know, considered
as central to what the record is, but absolutely is

(23:59):
essential to not just what the Rumor's album is, but
as you're saying, to the full story of what Fleetwood
Mac is.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
Alan Light is the author of Don't Stop, Why We
Still Love Fleetwood Mac's Rumors Go Your Own Way addresses
the breakup of Lindsay and Stevie, and you say, it's
difficult to figure out where it stands with listeners today.
Some varied views on the song from the people you
spoke to possibly misread.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
I don't know, miss read. I think that to relate
to the point that I was just talking about. If
you are looking at Fleetwood Mac and something that's really
important to you, is this centering of female voices, Is
this empowerment of these two women who are two of
the three you know front persons of the band. This

(24:45):
kind of hostile song from Lindsey can Land, you know,
a little bit sour. I think for some of these listeners,
I think they're not necessarily looking to cut Lindsey Buckingham
the same kind of break as the angry songs that
you get from the other guy, the shortage of anger
in the other songs as well. But I think there's
a little more pushback when you're hearing it from you know,

(25:07):
from the guy in the band. You know clearly it's
not a you know and and Stevie has said she
has mixed emotions about that song. She always hated singing
some of those lines, she hated singing the you know,
packing up shacking ups all you want to do line,
she said, was very unfair to her and to their story. So,
you know, I think there is some resentment about, you know,

(25:31):
some of the some of the Lindsay expression within the band.
But what you really cannot separate is even at the worst,
you know, the lowest points of the breakup of the
the whatever's going on between Lindsay and Stevie that Stevie
is very upfront about. He was the guy who knew

(25:53):
what to do with my songs. I would go off
and write these weird dreams. Is this two chords song?
I wrote it. It was seven minutes long. And in
all these verses, you know, Christine Movie says, Stevie brought
this song in and I was like, this song is
really boring. Why would we ever record that? There's this
is a mess. And Lindsey takes it and figures out

(26:17):
how to edit it, how to arrange it, where to
you know, bring the guitar in, where to bring the
different sounds in, how Stevie should present it. Comes back
Christine's like, well, this is a great song. Of course
we should record that song, and it becomes their only
number one hit in their entire career, and Stevie said,
you know, whatever was going on with between you know,

(26:40):
me and Lindsay. He understood the stuff that I was
writing and how to take these songs and turn them
into records. So any you know, understandable, you know sort
of side eye that you might take at Lindsey and
you know him taking over the band too much or
or you know, force some of these emotions that maybe

(27:01):
weren't totally fair into these songs. Also, what he was
able to do to create the sort of sonic vision
and architect these songs, including in some ways especially the
Stevie songs, is absolutely imperative to understanding this album.

Speaker 1 (27:19):
Sure absolutely, And I don't think there's ever been a
song prior to this song go your Own Way with
that much aggression, you know, the Bob welcheers very mellow,
prior to that, Peter Green very bluesy. There was some
I was trying. I was listening back through all of
the albums and trying to find something where you'd I mean,
loving you isn't the right thing to do. I mean
that's just like right, that's.

Speaker 2 (27:40):
Where we're coming in. That's what star line one, that's
where we're coming in right, yeah, and look that balance
there's I talked to a guy named Julian Bonnetta who's
a songwriter who wrote the big Sabrina Carpenter songs and
a bunch of one direction songs and like a big
pop songwriter, and he said some great things throughout, but

(28:00):
he also said, one thing about Rumors that's so extraordinary
is it's never too much of one thing. Right. It's
a rock record, but it's not too it doesn't have
five minute guitar solos. It's a pop record, it's a
yacht rock record. It's smooth, but it's not too smooth.
It's you know, British and it's America, like whatever, whatever

(28:25):
you want to take. There's this incredible sort of tight
rope balance that this record presents. So you get the
rock of go your own way or of the chain,
but then you get the ballads, you get the you know,
the the more you get the acoustic stuff, you get
the more sort of soulful stuff on the Stevie songs,
and it never tips too far. You know, there's it's,

(28:48):
there's there's great there's a there's the Lindsay playing like
there's great sort of rock jam stuff. On it, but
it doesn't. That doesn't take over anything. And so you know, anybody,
whatever is that you want, whatever it is that you
react to, it's in there and it's not getting overwhelmed

(29:08):
by any other particular element.

Speaker 1 (29:10):
And they didn't have I don't think Lindsay had that foresight,
but it just it just turned out that these songs age.
That Songbird is a great example of why the longevity
of this album. Here's a song that people came around to,
but it not right away. Years later they go back
and listen like I did that Songbirds. This is an

(29:31):
absolutely beautiful.

Speaker 2 (29:33):
Song and it's interesting. A lot of the younger people said,
you know, I didn't get that at first when I
first started listening to this album and I was fifteen, like,
I didn't want to hear like a quiet, spare ballad let.
I didn't have the patience for it. I didn't really
respond to the emotion of that. But as I sort

(29:53):
of matured a little bit, got a little bit more
life on me, that became a favorite. That became a
song that I turned to as I felt like I
could understand it. And I tell the story in the
book of because a lot of some people came to
that song through that woman, Evicacidy, who was this soul

(30:14):
pop jazz singer in out of Washington, d C. Who
also sort of didn't get discovered until after her death,
got embraced initially in England on the BBC and became
a huge her sort of posthumous album became a massive
hit in England and then came back. It was used
also in a bunch of soundtracks. That's the version that
you hear in Love actually, since we are in the

(30:35):
holiday season and people would be watching Love actually, you know,
that was the version that was there. That's many years
down the road. I mean that's years till she records it.
It was a title, it was the Songbird was the
title song for Eva's big album. And then after she dies,
then people turn to that and that becomes a mean

(30:57):
that's you know, an extenxtends over deck aids that story.
And yet that's how a lot of people came into
that song and then found their way back into this record.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
The Chain the second most stream song on Spotify from
that album, behind Dreams, and that wasn't released as.

Speaker 2 (31:15):
A single and not even a single.

Speaker 1 (31:16):
Right, Why do you think people take to that song
so much.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
You know, I think that besides.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
That it's a great song, I mean, besides a baseline
that you can't avoid that baseline.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
Friends who are bass players are like that baseline is
kind of for bass players what smoke on the Water
is for the guitar. Then you pick up a bass
that's the first thing you try to pick out. I mean,
the chain is fascinating. It's It's certainly had other uses.
It was in England. It was the theme to the
Formula one broadcasts for about a dozen years, which is

(31:49):
a big deal in the UK, increasingly a big deal
here as well. But you know that lots of usages
in films, in soundtracks again, Guardians of the Galaxy a
big placement, but that one. I think that rock radio
also came to embrace over time, as you know, it

(32:09):
never wasn't. I think I talked to a guy named
Sean Ross, who's a big radio analyst, guy who was like,
that song got played like it was a single, you know,
maybe not in the moment of the record, but afterwards
as much as the singles did. And I think if
you were going to distill that album down to one song,
which is a difficult thing, to do. I mean, the

(32:31):
chain is the one song that has a writing credit
for all five members because of the instrumental section and
the assembly of it is fascinating. It's three different songs
that get put together. Again to that vision of Lindsay Buckingham,
Christine's working on a song and like the chord changes

(32:53):
are good, but the lyrics aren't right, can't find the melody. Meantime,
Stevie's working on a completely different song and he's like, well,
we could try that melody and words over this shell
of a song that Christine's working on. I think those
could kind of sync up. Stevie to this day with

(33:13):
slightly mixed feelings, saying I could have just been a
song that I recorded, you know, it would have been
my song, but is talked into handing it over. They
put those songs together. There's this instrumental jam thing that
they did early on in the process when they were
working on the Christine song. He's like, well, if we
put if I can come up with this connecting section,

(33:36):
you know, so now we've got a melody of this
thing that fits with the harmony and the structure of
this thing, and then we can go into this other
thing that we played, and then he puts on as
a guitar figure that he pulled from one of the
a previous a song on the Buckingham Nicks album. That's
that little sort of acoustic fell at the top that

(33:57):
comes between the verses, and he puts all of that
together and comes up with the chain, which is just
you know, how do you do how do you hear
in your head all of that stuff? Yeah, you're a
crazy mad scientist at that point, Like there's no way
around it. So I love the story of the chain,
you know, just in general, plus how all of that

(34:19):
goes with this theme with what the song is about,
that you know, relationships are never over, that you carry
them forward, that these people are a part of your life,
you know, as you as you move on. All of
that is sort of how this song comes together, and
it just continues to grow, uh, you know, the momentum

(34:40):
around it continues to grow over the years, and obviously
it's one of the first things we think of when
we think of rumors.

Speaker 1 (34:48):
Find the Bookdown Rock website at bookdown Rock dot com.
There you can find all the back episodes of the show.
I hit this episode in video and audio links to
all of the platforms where you can listen to the podcast,
plus all the social media platforms were on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok,
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find your local independent bookstore, find out all the latest

(35:11):
hot rock book releases, and before you go, check out
the Booked on Rock online store. Pick up some booked
on Rock merch. It's all at booked on Rock dot com.
You Make Loving Fun as one of those songs that
manages to win over even those who aren't Fleetwood Mac fans.
Michaelangelo Mattos, Yes, right, he has a great story about that.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, I love that story. Michael Achlow, who's a writer
in Minneapolis, talks about going to a party and somebody saying,
you know, I don't really get Fleetwood Mac, and he's like, no,
you need to. You gotta, you gotta understand Fleetwood Mac.
And you gotta understand Fleetwood Mac, among other things. And
he's written a lot about dance music can be a

(35:53):
dance band, you know that these can be there's you know,
sort of a funky thing in some of these songs
and puts on You Make Love and Fun and the
guy hears that groove, and here's that that bassline and
is like, oh, well, okay, you know, yeah, I get that.
I can hear that, which is particularly fascinating because Christine

(36:17):
McVey writes that song about her new boyfriend who is
the band's lighting director, just to add to the chaos
of all of this, and yet here's her ex husband
playing the bassline that in some ways, you know, locks
that song down, playing this fantastic bass part that gives

(36:37):
it that propulsion, you know, that gives it that groove
that he's got to sit there and play as she's
singing about this new dude that she's seeing.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
Now unreal.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
I think it's just it's just none of it, you know,
makes any sense at all. And yet this is you know,
this is what you're left with. It is it's all
of these ingredients. And I think somebody makes the point
that if you know the story and you know the
story and you know the details, that's one thing. But
even if you don't, you can hear these layers, this depth,

(37:10):
this richness to whatever is going on in the studio.
You feel that in these songs that there is a
you know, they're just dimensions to these performances that are
coming from someplace, are coming from emotions that are banging
around in that room, and that are inescapable as you

(37:31):
as you hear these songs.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
Maybe beyond the actual skills, the musical talents, is the
fact that they were all able to step aside for
the greater cause, to be able to say, I'll just
I will record a song with my ex wife talking
about a guy as she's with, you know, and you know,
just saying look I need Lindsey. He's driving me mad.

(37:55):
I can't stand in mind, I don't want to be
in the same room with him, but I get what
he's what he's doing is importance and vice versa.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
Lindsay when they say that, look, you know, whatever was
going on, we knew that these songs were something really special,
that something was happening. And I think there's a quote
from Stevie in the book where she's like, what are
we gonna do? Like we were gonna quit and go
start new bands? Like that would be stupid and talking
to I talked to Cameron Crowe for the book, who

(38:23):
wrote the famous Rolling Stone cover story that came out
at the time, very famous cover photo of the five
of them in bed together and he said, look, they
you know, obviously the tension was what it was, and
the relationships, you know, what was happening was happening. But
they also knew what they had and they were ready

(38:43):
to put that out in the world. And knowing that
they were going to mean from the album title on down,
knowing that leaning into this narrative and to all of
the gossip column stuff and to everything that was happening,
inescapably was going to be part of the story. And
they were not resistant to that. They were not afraid

(39:04):
of that. They knew that they had made something great.
They were committed to these songs, and they were, you know,
whatever it took, they were going.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
To see that through defines what an artist is, putting
it all into your art, into.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
The work, you know, into these songs, singing because it's inconceivable, right,
Stevie and lindsay break up, John and Christine get divorced,
Mick and his wife get divorced, Mick and Stevie have
an affair, right, Christine starts dating one of the crew.
You know, all of this is happening, and yet they're

(39:38):
showing up in the studio every day singing these songs,
writing these songs, recording these songs about each other and
about what they're going through and sitting there together working
this stuff out. It is unimaginable what that was. And look,
that's a story, you said. There was the behind the music.
There was the Classic Albums episode. You know Ken Calay

(40:00):
who co produced the record, He wrote a book about it.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
There was even for his book on Tusk, I didn't
have month for Rumors.

Speaker 2 (40:08):
There was this this play Stereophonic last year that won
the Tony for Best Play of the Year. That is
a very very mildly fictionalized version of the Rumors story
to a point that Ken Calay ended up suing them,
saying that too much of this was taken from his book,
which it was. And yet you know, people still love

(40:32):
this story, they still love what that is. I didn't
need to write that book, you know, I needed to
do enough of the context, do enough of you have
to know what I'm talking about. But again, what I
really wanted to look at was not just the making
of story, but the afterlife, the legacy and this endless
popularity and why people keep turning to it over and

(40:55):
over and over again. You know, you the story itself
is astounding and weaves its way in through all this stuff.
But there's but also there are places to turn to
to be able to get that.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
That's what I love about the book. Yeah, the angle
that it takes in the way you look at the
album from that aspect. Saturday Night Live is another vehicle,
right for a bizarre choice. I don't want to know
which I love. This is maybe my favorite deep track
off the album. But this skit was Paul Rudd. Paul
Rudd and Claire mulaney was the staff writer who chose it.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
So yeah, there was this sketch and it's funny. There
have been just weird Fleetwood Mac references on Saturday Night
Live over the years. Right, there was Lindsay Buckingham as
a recurring punchline on the What's up with that sketch
that that Keenan Thompson did. The end of every sketch
was we have Lindsay Buckett and then he was it
was Bill Hayter, I guess, and they would never let

(41:51):
him talk, but he would just sit there in the
funny haircut in the leather jacket. But there was this
sketch that's Paul Rudd and Vaness of Air one of
the cast members, and the joke is they're getting divorced.
They're meeting with their divorce lawyers. They're trying to sketch
out their you know, agreement or whatever it is. And
then and they're fighting, and it's increasingly absurd what they're

(42:13):
fighting about. And then every minute I don't want to
know starts playing, which turns out to be on Keenan
Thompson's it's his ring tone on his phone. But when
that song starts playing, they can't be mad at you
at each other, and they start doing, you know, ridiculous dance.
And I was like, what the hell you know? Twenty

(42:35):
five years after this album came out or whatever it was,
thirty years the whole premise of the punchline of a
Whole Sketch is this song that, as you said, is
a deep cut, like not one of the big songs
on the album, not something you ever hear on the radio.
So I wanted to figure out how, why, like, how

(42:56):
did you settle on that? And so, no knowing people
who know the writers, I chased down that it was
Clara mulaney, who was John Mulaney's sister. He was he
was all right head writer on SNL, but it was
it was her sketch that she had written and talked
to her about it. She said it was something that
she had developed doing, you know, at her improv group

(43:18):
in Chicago before she came and just said, like everybody
loves rumors. That was the perfect like the way that
song starts with the stop and the start guitar and
the drums coming in, like it was just the right mood.
And I never thought about using anything else. And I
was like, okay, but did everybody else get it? Like
the people were we were like what is this song?

(43:40):
Like what are you even talking about? This is like
I don't know. The crew loved it. We were getting
laughs and we just sort of went with it. So
it was so wild to me, like it's one thing
to do that if the punchline, not that it would
work for this punchline, but were go your own way
and everybody knows the song and okay, this was not that.
This is you know, one of, if not the least

(44:02):
known songs on this album, and yet there it was
getting laughs at you know, eleven forty five on a
Saturday night.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
Yeah, and here it is another vehicle to introduce a
song from the album to millions.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
So once you start looking, you start finding these, you know,
these things that are out there, these examples, and similarly,
looking for young people to talk to about the album.
You know, I wish I could pretend I was such
a great reporter that I could go out and dig
up these kids and find it. I did a lame,
super vague social media post, Hey, anybody have kids or

(44:38):
young friends or relatives who are into rumors. I think
I booked thirteen interviews the next day, which is also
totally validating because you're like, oh, okay, it really is
out there that it's easy to you know, it's easy
to find a lot of a group of young people
who are into this. And then once you start looking,

(44:59):
there these two younger women who were sitting behind me
and my wife at the Stevie Nicks show at Madison
Square Garden. I'm like, well, I gotta ask them. I
just have to figure out how to how to not
be a creepy older guy asking for their number, like
to be like, I'm here with my wife, I'll give
you my email. You write to me, so you know,

(45:21):
they were great, And then you just start running into oh,
we've got an intern this you know, this semester this
summer who was talking about how much he loves rumors
or my favorite from I grew up in Cincinnati. I'm
a big Cincinnati Reds fan. I'm a big baseball guy,
and I follow a guy on social media who's like
the Reds, you know, big sports guy there, does a

(45:43):
Reds thing on the radio whatever, And in one of
his columns mentioned my daughter was talking about listening to
rumors the other day. So I'm like, okay, wrote him, like,
if you can send me your daughter, you know, connect
me to her, love to talk to her for the book.
You know, just sort of finding people out there who

(46:03):
you know, one way or another led me to these
post millennials gen zs and down to like fifteen sixteen
year olds who were all one, you know, said how
important this album was in their lives. Was a great
journey to go on.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
Yeah, it gives you a great idea. And now I
like the fact that there's a wide array of responses.
We talked about Oh Daddy, but there were some that
loved the song. I mean, that's the weakest link on
the album, But not everybody agreed that it was the
weakest song.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
No. I mean, it turns out when you see I
think I started with some you know, Reddit page that
was like, what's the worst song on rumors? And that
was the most votes who went to that, But there
were even there people defending it, saying no, no, no,
it's great. That has to be there, you know. But okay,
if that emerges as the one that people point to,
and I can see maybe they gave the Daddy thing

(46:56):
creeps people out a little bit. Maybe in twenty twenty five, okay,
stand but look, I placed a big bet that people
would be interested in reading what a bunch of young
people they don't know have to say about this album.
I mean, that's not the whole book, but it sort
of builds to identifying this phenomenon, teasing it through all

(47:19):
these examples, and then kind of get it talking to
these kids about, Okay, what's that about, what does it
mean for you? How did you find it? What? What
does resonate? And I didn't know what I was going
to get back from them, and if that was a
thing that I could really, you know, build as part
of the skeleton of this book. But they were. They
all had such strong thoughts and such strong feelings about it,

(47:42):
and all really had stuff to say that I felt like, Okay,
this is gonna this is going to carry its weight
as a central element to what I want to do.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
Here and an underlying strength that resonates with gold dust women.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
People spawned to the Stevie Look. The cult of Stevie
runs very, very deep, particularly for young women. I mean
the icon that she has become. And I can't fully
figure it out because I remember going to see Stevie
Nicks a dozen years ago, maybe at the Beacon Theater.

(48:21):
Show was great. I'm like, Okay, she's out here, she
can sell out theaters. She's doing she's got a career,
she's doing great. Show is awesome. And then five years
later she's selling out Madison Square Guard and then five
years later she's co headlining stadiums Joel.

Speaker 1 (48:39):
It's amazing.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
And it's not like there was some big Stevie Nicks
hit in the last ten years that would have accelerated
this embrace of Stevie as a superstar. It just has
been this snowball. You know. Again, I think between Taylor
Swift talking about her, Harry Styles talking about her, you know,
all of this Lee with Max stuff, and just the

(49:02):
sort of iconic female, you know, the strength that she represents,
the independence that she represents, how she you know, stands
for this generation. But it is kind of unbelievable how
much the popularity and the importance of Stevie Nicks has

(49:23):
expanded in the last ten fifteen years just kind of
based on her, like, not out of any thing that
you can point to and say, oh, okay, this is
it's because of this thing that that happened. So Goldust
Woman obviously a central piece of you know, the you know,
the Stevie story and her telling her story. Golds Woman

(49:47):
was also the opportunity in the book to talk about
drugs and rumors, which I think is a thing that
you have to address somewhere. What that did to these
sessions and these relationships and you know what getting the
record done h required or was fighting against or however

(50:07):
you want to look at it. So in terms of
looking again song by song, that was a window to
sort of plug that piece of the story in as well.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
Hey guys, thanks so much for checking out the Booked
on Rock podcast. If you've just found the podcast, welcome.
If you've been listening, thank you so much for your
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Share on social media and let people know about Booked
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(50:44):
tune in, and on YouTube music. You can check out
the full episodes on video, along with video highlights from
episodes on the Booked on Rock YouTube channel. Find it
at Booked on Rock. Thanks again for listening. Now back
to the show, seeing Stevie get into the and Roll
Hall of Fame as a solo artist, and seeing and
reading about how essentially Lindsay was out of Fleetwood Mac

(51:08):
because it was an ultimatum. It's it's Mere or him,
And at that point they were like, yeah, you know what, Stevie,
You're You're, You're you.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
Know, Stevie holds all the cards.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
And that strength, that's I think that's the strength that
people are.

Speaker 2 (51:23):
They can go they can go be Fleetwood Mac with
Stevie Nick in the band and Lindsay Bockingham. Not they
cannot go out and be Fleetwood Mac with Lindsay in
the band and not Stevie so you know that. And yes,
being the first woman inducted twice into the Rock Hall
as a solo artist in addition to as part of

(51:43):
the band was certainly a big, you know, a pivotal moment,
you know, a marker for her.

Speaker 1 (51:49):
I wonder how much too. Also the fact that she's
never She's like, I'm never going to get married. She
did get married, but she realized music is my is
the love of my life. That that is it. I'm
not gonna commit And I think there's something to be
said to that too.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
Just just the other night, just the other week, when
Taylor Swift was on Stephen Colderer to promote the new
Era's Docuseriies, he asked her who who can give you advice?
Like who do you turn to and listen to what
they say? The first thing she said was, I am
lucky enough to be friends with Stevie Nicks. That is

(52:25):
somebody I can turn to, who can you know, give
me guidance and has had the experience that she's had
and I'm very fortunate that I that I have that.
That was the first thing out of her mouth. So
you know, we see it paid paid forward.

Speaker 1 (52:39):
Like that Silver Springs. We talked about it. Why was
it left off?

Speaker 2 (52:42):
Again? So the official reason that Silver and Springs was
not on the initial album was this was back in
the days when LPs, you know, when albums came out
as LPs and you could basically only have twenty minutes
of music. You could maybe stretch to twenty two minutes
of music on a side of an album, or you
started to really degrade the sonic quality. The grooves got

(53:05):
too narrow and you started to lose sound. It wasn't
as loud, it wasn't as rich when you cut the album.
So having Silver Springs on there would have made the
album too long, would have taken it up over forty
five minutes. So that's the you know, that's the official reason.
The other complicated reasons were, would you really want Dreams

(53:27):
and Old Dust Woman and Silver Springs kind of three
of these big Stevie styles sort of mid tempo, you
know that kind of a feel. Was that going to
overwhelm the balance of the record too much? Did Lindsay
have issues with you know that here was another this
is another song about him and there, you know, was

(53:48):
there anything personal that he was bringing into that? He
says it was not about that. It was really just
about it wouldn't fit, so we had to, you know,
we had to take it off replace with I Don't
Want to Know went on. She still got another writing
credit on the album. It didn't cost her that but
a two and a half minute song instead of a

(54:09):
five and a half minutes so it was the B
side of Go Your Own Way. It was not on
the album. But then CDs come out. Length doesn't matter anymore.
You can do seventy five minutes on a CD. So
now Silver Springs goes back on the album. Now the

(54:29):
question is where do you put it. The album exists,
you know, and there are different CDs. There were different
pressings that have Silver Springs in different places on the album.
There are some where it's basically between the first and
the second side, where it goes between Songbird and the
chain in the middle, and then there are others where

(54:50):
it's at the end where then you get gold Dust
Woman and Silver Springs back to back, which is a
which is weird.

Speaker 1 (54:57):
Yeah, so and then of course we made that call.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
I assume Warner Brothers the baby I don't know. And
then you get to streaming, of course, and you get
the super deluxe box set, and it's all just it.
So it really when you came to rumors, determines whether
you think Silver Springs is on this album or not.
I got to use the phrase Schrodinger's rumors, because here
is a song that simultaneously is and is not on

(55:23):
this album, depending which version of the album is your
introduction to the album. But again, now, particularly because of
this TikTok thing, it's absolutely a central piece of the
story of this album, and I couldn't not address it
and not deal with it, both to be able to

(55:43):
tell that story, but then also to talk about you
know what that performance at the dance was about, you know,
her very pointedly turning it into this sort of accusatory,
confrontational song, and and how that has lived on, particularly
through this kind of TikTok explosion in the last couple

(56:05):
of years.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
Hey guys, we'll get back to the show, but first
I want to tell you about an exclusive deal for
booked on Rock listeners get fifteen percent off any purchase
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(56:30):
Old Glory dot com. Make sure to use the promo code.
Booked on Rock. Also find a link in this episode
show notes, or just go to booked on rock dot
com and click on my deals. So I want to
finish by asking you what you think of the album now,
more importantly, what do you feel when you listen to
it today compared to when you first heard it? As
a change?

Speaker 2 (56:49):
Happily, I do still love it. This is an album
I bought when I was eleven years old. It was
one of the first albums that I bought. I remember
hearing those songs on the radio, and you know what
what that was to initially hear this record and love
it then. But obviously you hear it through different years,
this many years later, this many different you know parts

(57:10):
of this story. And I think that you know two
things that really stuck out to me. One, you know,
as as I said before, hearing this spectrum of emotions,
that I think a lot of these newer listeners here
in this album not defining it so much as the

(57:32):
you know, the tension and break up album, but hearing
all of the different aspects that are on there. I mean,
of course we know that, but that over time that
really becomes you know that it is a much richer
and much deeper tale that is being told in these songs.
And the other thing that really stuck with me is

(57:55):
I talked to again. I talked to a bunch of
producers and I took this WiMN Emily Lazar, who's a
mastering engineer who's won Grammys and it's done thousands of
record worked with Beck and the Foo Fighters at him
and lots of the great rock bands today and she said,
these bands come to me and I asked them, what
do you want your record to sound like? She said,
like can Most of them say, well, we wanted to

(58:16):
sound like Rumors. And she says, okay, but what does
that mean to you when you say that, what are
you talking about? And they say, well, we want it
to sound organic and warm and live and kind of
rich and woody. And she says, okay, I get what
you're talking about, but Rumors is actually none of those things.

(58:40):
The only thing that is live on Rumors is that
instrumental part of the chain. Everything else on this record
was overdubbed, every part who was played separately, to a
point where there's a moment where the physical tapes of
the album were about to fall apart. The tape was

(59:00):
coming off of the backing and they had to do
this crazy, you know, bringing an engineer who could sync
up and recut the tape to match so that they
had a version they could work with or they were
going to lose the whole album. So there's nothing organic
about rumors at all. It's this perfectly constructed thing. And

(59:26):
talking to Mark Ronson about it also, you know as
a producer in a DJ and he's like, we think
of it like we think about a Steely Dan record,
Like we think it's this pristine seventies thing, But actually,
if you listen to those parts, there's some real sort
of rough, raw stuff on there. There's parts where Nick
Fleet would have just beaten the hell out of the drums.
There's parts that are a little distorted and kind of frayed,

(59:50):
and that's what gives the album more life. That's where
you hear this emotion that we're talking about. It's not perfect,
it's not immaculate, right, and that's what where you feel
that energy and so I think we bring these associations.
Do we think about the time and the album cover
and the clothes they were wearing and the shag carpeting, like,

(01:00:12):
we think about it so much that you know, we
associate it to this time and place and bring all
that in when we listen to rumors that isn't actually
what rumors sounds like. And I thought, though, that was
a really really interesting thing to think about and to
think about more broadly, how we listen to stuff. How
much of that is, all of the everything that we

(01:00:35):
bring in our brain, that we attach to the time
and where we heard it and how we listened to
it and how we were exposed to it, that isn't
really an accurate representation of what it is. Doesn't make
it less valid, doesn't mean that stuff isn't true and
isn't there in our head, but it may or may
not actually be what the thing is. So I think

(01:00:56):
those were the things that sort of opened up for
me in research this and sort of trying to connect
the dots through the years, or you know, we all
have these conceptions, and younger listeners do have these conceptions
of what this album is. That's part of it and
then there are all these other parts, and that's where
all these other people can find their way into it.

(01:01:20):
You know, all these kids talked about. Of course, my
parents had rumors. Everybody had rumors. We grew up with
it in the house. But that isn't. I don't listen
to this album for nostalgia. I had to. This album
had to become my album and had to become about
my relationship to them. That's why I care about this.
I don't care about this because my parents or God

(01:01:40):
help us, my grandparents in some cases listen to this album.
I was aware of it, but until I could make
it mine, that's when it really mattered to me. And
that's the experience we all go through with with the
music that we love. I mean, there's stuff that we
listen to. It reminds us of a time, it takes
us to that place. But if we don't feel it

(01:02:01):
for ourselves, that isn't you know, we don't care about
it in that same way. That's what I got to
hear over and over and that's really powerful to hear about.
You know, any piece of you to be talking to
kids about music that they love. But also, you know,
we get we do this stuff every day you get
jaded about it, you get cynical, You feel like, ah,

(01:02:22):
music doesn't mean what it used to. It's not as
important as it used to be. It's not like it was.
You talk to these kids about their feelings for these songs,
and you feel that power and you feel how important
it is. That's inspiring. That's what keeps me wanting to
pay attention to this stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
I'd love to hear that. Don't stop. Why we still
love flutood Max rumors out now. Find out wherever books
are sold. Look for it at yourineer's bookstore. You can
go to book down rock dot com to find your
nearest independent bookstore. See if you can pick up a
copy there. Where can people find you online? Alan, Well, the.

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Best place right now is my is over on the
podcast that I co host with my friend Mark Goodman.
We spent a bunch of years on Sirius XM together
doing a show daily and channel. Our channel got shut down,
so we've been doing that. So sound Up is our
podcast sound uppod dot com. You can find us there,

(01:03:19):
but we're we're up every week and that's kind of
the best place to uh see what's what's going on?
In my world.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
Allen Night, thanks so much for coming on the show.
I really was looking forward to this.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
This was great, Eric, absolutely a pleasure. Thanks for bringing
me on. That's it. It's in the books.

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The Enduring Legacy of Fleetwood Mac's 'Rumours' [Episode 343]

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