April 10, 2025 • 20 mins
🌟 Welcome to another episode of BOOKKAST - Bestsellers in Minutes! Today we dive deep into one of the most thought-provoking and timely books of recent years: "Abundance" by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson.
🔍 In this episode, we explore how Abundance challenges the dominant narrative of scarcity and calls for a radical reimagining of our political, social, and technological ambitions. The authors argue that the real path forward lies not in cutting back, but in building more—more homes, more energy, more innovation, and more opportunities.
🏙️ Drawing on examples from housing, infrastructure, energy, and scientific research, Abundance is a powerful manifesto for an optimistic, productive, and action-driven liberalism. This book redefines what it means to govern, innovate, and progress in the 21st century.
💡 Topics covered in this episode:
🎧 Hit play, subscribe, and let BOOKKAST be your shortcut to the best minds of our time!
👇 Let us know in the comments: Do you believe in the story of abundance? Or is scarcity a more realistic view?
📌 Subscribe for more bite-sized book insights every week!
🔍 In this episode, we explore how Abundance challenges the dominant narrative of scarcity and calls for a radical reimagining of our political, social, and technological ambitions. The authors argue that the real path forward lies not in cutting back, but in building more—more homes, more energy, more innovation, and more opportunities.
🏙️ Drawing on examples from housing, infrastructure, energy, and scientific research, Abundance is a powerful manifesto for an optimistic, productive, and action-driven liberalism. This book redefines what it means to govern, innovate, and progress in the 21st century.
💡 Topics covered in this episode:
- Why scarcity is a limiting story—and how abundance changes everything.
- How institutional failure is holding back progress.
- The need for policy reforms that support building and innovation.
- The philosophical and political roots of the “abundance agenda”.
🎧 Hit play, subscribe, and let BOOKKAST be your shortcut to the best minds of our time!
👇 Let us know in the comments: Do you believe in the story of abundance? Or is scarcity a more realistic view?
📌 Subscribe for more bite-sized book insights every week!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to Bookcasts, where we give you the best
sellers in minutes. And I'm Paul, Hi, I'm Sarah, And
today we're taking a deep dive into Abundance, a New
York Times bestseller by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
This book has a really compelling vision. You know, despite
all the challenges that we're facing right now, a future
full of abundance in things like energy, housing, technology. It's
not a pipe dream, yeah, they say it's actually within
our grasps.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Like genuinely possible.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yeah. So think of this as like a rapid download
of all the core arguments and the surprising insights of
this really important book.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Absolutely. And you know, the book drops you right into
this future scenario right away. Yeah, and asks you to
imagine a world, okay, powered by clean and really cheap
energy from solar, wind, nuclear, geothermal.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
And they contrast this with our reliance on fossil fuels, yeah,
which they kind of vividly describe as mining rocks and
burning them.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah. It really makes you think how we get our
energy right almost immediately Yeah, And they don't stop there, No,
they take this idea of abundance even further to how
we think about producing food. Oh okay, So imagine vertical farms,
you know, giving us all this fresh, local produce year round,
and we wouldn't need so much land for traditional agriculture.
(01:21):
And then there's cultivated meat grown in labs, potentially freeing
up huge amounts of land that we could use for
like rewilding and stuff. Oh wow, the very transformative picture
they paint it is.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
It's very different. It's a real shift in.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Thinking, absolutely, And what really struck me, Paul, is that
this big shift in our physical world. Yeah, it's happening
at the same time as this digital revolution that we're
all living through. And they suggest that we're right on
the edge of moving beyond what they call these braided crises,
things like housing, financial instability, pandemics, climate change, political gridlock.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Right those feel very twenty for century exactly, like this
is our world right now.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yeah, And it's a powerful idea, and the book doesn't
shy away from this central frustration. You know, for years,
especially in the US, it felt like we knew what
the solutions were to all this scarcity, Okay, whether it's
building more affordable housing or investing in clean energy. But
things just moved so slowly.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah, progress has been so slow.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
The authors dig into why those blockages existed, and it's
a fascinating part of.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
The book, absolutely, and that leads us right to what
they call the supply problem.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
They highlight this shift in economic and political thinking towards
the supply side. Okay, the realization that simply trying to
manage demand isn't enough if the supply of the things
we need isn't there to meet those needs.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
So it's not just about wanting things, it's about making
sure they exist in the first place.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Precisely, okay. And they challenge this traditional view of the economy,
you know, as a fixed.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Pie, right, like you get a bigger slice, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Just slicing up the same pie into smaller pieces. But
they say, no, true economic growth comes from innovation, from
creating entirely new, bigger pies, not just getting a bigger slice.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Okay, So creating more for everyone, not just fighting over
the same amount.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yeah, exactly, okay. And at the core of this pie making,
according to Klein and Thompson, is technology.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Oh interesting.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
They see it as this crucial tool for building a
more just world and more sustainable future. But they're also
careful to say that technology by itself isn't enough. It
needs to be embedded in you know, good policies, effective institutions,
so that it actually helps people.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
It's not just like tech for tech's sake, exactly. It
has to actually improve things precisely.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
And one of the most powerful illustrations of this idea
is the housing crisis.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
The housing crisis, wow.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
And they draw this insightful contrast between America's historical reliance
on this vast western expanse. You know, this idea of
like manifest destiny in the frontier as a source of
opportunity and our current reality were the most valuable land
for innovation and economic activity is.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
In our cities, right, so the opportunity is shifted exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
And they really emphasize, you know, the cost of housing
in these major urban centers. Yeah, Manhattan, San Francisco, La, Yeah, Seattle, Boston.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yeah, those places are so expensive.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
They've become these places where the cost of living makes
it nearly impossible. Do you even live there? Yeah, regardless
of your skills, yeah, or your contributions.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
You know, it doesn't even matter.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Like New York City has almost flipped from a place
you went to make your fortune to a place where
you need a fortune just just to live there. Wow,
and this has all these wider consequences, right, Yeah, like
what the book talks about the rise of this ideas
and services economy, and how innovation tends to cluster in
(04:59):
these dense urban environments. Right, even though like communication and
transportation have.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Improved, you think that would spread things out more.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
You'd think it would make it less important to be
in the same physical space. And this is where they
introduce this really important idea called the Great divergence.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
The Great diversions.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Okay, so while innovation is happening in these high cost cities,
the cost of housing is actually making it harder for
people to live there and participate in that.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
So they can't benefit from the innovation they're helping to create.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
That doesn't seem very fair.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
No, it's a real problem, and it has this cascading effect.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
You know the book explores the impact on local service
sector jobs.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Like teachers and nurses and retail workers.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Yeah exactly. Okay, where the high cost of living doesn't
necessarily lead to higher wages. That's interesting because their productivity
games aren't as big.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Right as in tech or finance or whatever.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Right, so they're stuck in this really difficult situation.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
That's a really important point, perhaps apps.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Most troublingly, they connect these really high housing costs to
the decline and.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Upward mobility like the American dream.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yeah, that idea that your kids will be better off
than you are, And they say that's much less.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Certain now and housing is a big part of that.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Housing affordability is a huge factor in this stagnation. And
then the book digs into the politics of this this
anti growth sentiment, and they trace this really interesting historical shift.
They contrast the post World War two era, where you know,
places like Lakewood, California, welcomed growth to accommodate a growing population.
(06:41):
Makes sense with the rise of measures to restrict it,
like the Petaluma Plan, which capped the number of new
housing units allowed, and this shift towards limiting growth is
everywhere now. Oh really, yeah, the numbers are really striking. California,
for example, used to issue over two hundred thousand housing
permits annually in the fifties and sixties.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Okay, since two.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Thousand and seven, they've never even hit one hundred and
fifty thousand in a single year.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Wow. So that's a huge drop.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
It's a massive change in how we think about building.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
It really is.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
And this anti growth sentiment has a very direct and
devastating consequence homelessness. And the book uses this really powerful analogy.
They say, it's like musical chairs.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Musical chair Okay.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
If there are more people, then there are chairs, right,
someone is going to be left standing when the music stops.
So in this case, the chairs are affordable homes, right,
And if we don't have enough, people will be left
without a place to live.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
That's a really good analogy.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
And it's not just an unfortunate circumstance, right. They're very
clear about this. It's a result of policy choices, decisions
that have constrained the housing supply. They also look at
the unintended consequences of home ownership becoming the prime merry
way people build wealth.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
In the US. Okay, So if your house is your
main asset, okay, you're going to.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Want to protect its value, right, And that can lead
to policies that restrict new construction.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Oh, because more housing would mean lower prices exactly. Okay,
I see.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
And they talk about zoning laws.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Zoning laws which.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Were originally intended to separate land uses.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Right, keep factories away from residential areas.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah, things like that, okay. But then after trucks and
buses made transportation easier, okay, those zoning laws increasingly became
tools to limit growth, oh interesting, and preserve the character
of existing neighborhoods, often at the expense of affordability.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
So they're kind of used against their original purpose almost
in a way, yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
And it's not just zoning. They look at environmental regulations too, okay,
like California's CEQA, the California Environmental Quality Act, which was
designed for environmental protection okay, but is now often used
to block development projects really for a variety of reasons,
some of which don't have a lot to do with
the environment. Oh so it's kind of been co opted
(09:10):
in a way for other purposes exactly. And moving beyond
the housing crisis, the book looks at this fascinating issue,
the productivity puzzle, a productivity puzzle, particularly in construction, and
it's kind of strange to learn that while productivity has
surged in other industries like manufacturing, Yeah, like manufacturing, it's
(09:32):
stagnated or even decline in construction since the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Well, it's really surprising, it is.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
And the author's site research that rules out a lack
of investment as the cause.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
So it's not just about not putting enough money in.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
No. They even wonder if we're measuring construction output accurately.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Interesting, But even accounting for things like the size of
houses built per worker, the productivity gains are tiny compared
to other sectors.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
So something else must be going on exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
And this leads them to this theory of sclerosis. Sclerosis
in wealthy societies.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
What is that?
Speaker 1 (10:08):
The idea that as societies get older and richer, they
develop more special interest groups and more veto points in.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Their systems veto points, Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Which makes it harder to get things.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Done, so more people have the power to say no to.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Things essentially, yeah. Ok And they specifically talk about the
role of lawyers and what they call adversarial legalism in
slowing things down.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Okay. So our legal system is designed to be.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Fair, yeah, to make sure everyone is accountable, right, but
it can also become an obstacle okay, with endless lawsuits
and regulatory hurdles.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
So it could be used to block things.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Even things that might be beneficial, oh wow, like renewable
energy or affordable housing. To define adversarial legalism a little more,
it means relying heavily on lawsuits and courts to resolve
disputes and enforce regulations.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Okay. So it becomes a very legalistic process.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, exactly. And they use Ralph Nader's Consumer Protection movement
as an example.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Ralph Vader.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Okay, so his work led to really important environmental and
safety laws, but it also created this system that's very
prone to lawsuits, okay, which can now be used to
block projects, even good ones.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
So even if a project might benefit society as a whole.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Yeah, okay, it can get bogged down in legal challenges.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
That's a really interesting point.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
And this is connected to something they call the procedure fetish.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Procedure fetish. What's that?
Speaker 1 (11:37):
This idea that in government there's often this huge emphasis
on process, okay, on following every rule perfectly right, sometimes
at the expense of achieving the actual goals.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
So you're so focused on dotting your eyes and crossing
your t's yeah, that you lose sight of the bigger.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Picture exactly, and this can lead to bureaucratic delays okay,
and just the lack of effectiveness and government.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Right, so things just take forever and don't really work precisely.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
And they use California's high speed rail project as an example.
Oh yeah, that's been going on for a long time,
years of planning, billions of dollars, and the project is
still mired in uncertainty, wow, with delays and cost overruns.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
So those delays actually cost money too.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Absolutely. They emphasize that the longer it takes, the more
expensive it gets.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Lass of vicious cycle it really is, okay.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
And then the book shifts gears a bit to talk
about energy transition.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Energy transition, okay, so moving away.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
From fossil fuels, and they highlight the political obstacles to this.
You know, we see protests all over the world over
rising fuel prices and resistance to certain green energy policies,
and this just underscores how crucial energy abundance is. They
call it the nucleus of wealth.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Wow, the nucleus of wealth.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
And they talk about how inequality is tied to energy
scarcity and how clean and abundant energy could help us
solve environmental problems, okay, through things like vertical greenhouses, desalination,
carbon capture. So there's this huge potential there there is, Yeah,
but achieving that clean energy abundance is a huge undertaking.
(13:17):
What way they emphasize the scale of it. Okay, we'd
need to build the equivalent of the entire US electricity
grid multiple times over by twenty fifty.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
But using all renewables, that's.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
A massive amount of infrastructure, it is.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
And that presents all sorts of challenges like what land
use for solar and wind farms? Right, building new long
distance transmission lines Okay, it's not a small task.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
It sounds really complicated, it is.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
And this leads to a discussion about innovation itself, okay,
and they challenge what they call the.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Eureka myth, the Eureka biky, this.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Romantic idea that progress is driven by sudden, brilliant inventions,
right like the light bulb mall mess Yeah, exactly, Okay,
But they say the really important part is implementation, Okay,
actually taking those inventions and scaling them up.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
So it's not enough to just have a good idea.
Do you have to be able to make it work
in the real world.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Exactly, And they use the development of penicillin as an example,
pil So it was this huge scientific breakthrough, but initially
it languished because there was no effective way to mass
produce it.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Oh so it was a great idea, but nobody could
use it. Yeah, exactly, okay.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
And they also challenged the idea that markets can do
this scaling up on their own. They say government has
a crucial role to play. Oh interesting, And they point
to Operation.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Warp Speed the COVID vaccines, Yes, okay as a good
example of government led implementation.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Okay, So in a crisis, the government can really step
up and make things happen precisely, okay.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
But they also talk about what they call the Carrico problem,
the Carrico problem. Who's Carrico? So calling Carrico was this
scientist who did decades of research on mRNA oh wow,
which was really important for the COVID vaccine okay, but
her work was largely ignored for a long time. Oh really, Yeah,
and this is what they call the Kaiec problem. So
(15:08):
sometimes really important research gets overlooked. Exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
And they also critique some aspects of the NIH funding system.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
The National Institutes of Health.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, saying it can be too risk averse okay. You know,
favoring incremental research over potentially groundbreaking but risky.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Stuff, so playing it safe.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Yes, And they also point to the emphasis on grantsmanship,
being really good at writing grant proposals, which might sometimes
overshadow the actual scientific merit of the research.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
So you could have a really good idea, yeah, but
if you're not good at writing about it, you might
not get the funding.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
And they contrast this with DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research
Projects Agency, which gives program managers more flexibility and encourages
risky research and collaborate across.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Different fields, so a very different approach. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
And they argue that we need a better science.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Of science, a science of science, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
To figure out how to nurture innovation more effectively.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
That makes sense, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
And finally, the book looks at what they call a
politics of abundance.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
A politics of abundance interesting.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
So they discuss these political orders which are like dominant
sets of beliefs about how to govern, and they say
there's potential for a new one.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
To emerge, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Focused on achieving abundance, moving beyond these neoliberal ideas that
have been around for a while. And they contrast the
scarcity focused narratives of right wing populism with the potential
for progressives to embrace an abundance driven agenda.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
So instead of fighting over a limited pie, we can
focus on baking more pies exactly, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
And they point to the rise of the y and
b y movement yes in my backyard as a sign
of this.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Shift towards being more open to development exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
And they note the growing bipartisan support for building more
in the US, Yeah, driven in part by competition with China.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Okay, So there's this sense that we need to be
building more, okay.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
But they also acknowledge that it's not easy to rapidly
deploy these projects, right, even when there's political will and
the money, So.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
There are still obstacles to overcome.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Absolutely, And they frame this pursuit of abundance as kind
of going back to the roots of leftist thought, which
emphasize production and material.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Progress, so making sure people have what they need.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Exactly, okay. And they stress the need for tailored solutions
for different industries okay, because different industries face different.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Bottlenecks, right, So there's no one size fits all solutions precisely, okay.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
And this is where bottleneck.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Detection comes in.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Bottleneck detection really understanding how industries work, okay, to identify
what's holding them back.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Okay. So it's like finding the weakest link in the chain.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yeah, exactly. And they give an example the artificial scarcity
of primary care physicians. Interesting, so we don't have enough
primary care doctors and that's a bottleneck.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
In the healthcare system. Okay, I see.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
And they discuss different policy tools for fostering abundance, like
push funding through government grants and loans okay, and pull
funding things like prizes and advanced market commitments, which they
say have been successful in things like vaccine development. And
they come back to energy abundance again as a crucial
(18:35):
bottleneck to address.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Because it affects so many other things exactly.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
You know, it would make things more affordable and could
drive innovation in other areas like AI and desalination.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
So it's really foundational, it is.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
And they close with this vision for a liberalism.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
That builds, Liberalism that builds okay.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Focused on actually making progress in housing, energy, healthcare, infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
So it's about delivering tangible results.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Exactly, and they see this as tapping into this American
tradition of thinking big and embracing progress through technology and institution.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Okay, So it's about using our strengths yea, to create
a better future exactly. Wow.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
So Abundance really presents this thought provoking and optimistic vision
of a future where we can overcome these challenges, Okay,
by focusing on building, innovating, and removing the barriers to progress.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
It's a really inspiring message, it is. So this has
just been a quick overview of some of the key
arguments and insights from Abundance.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, we definitely encourage you to pick up a copy
and really dive into it.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
There's so much more to explore.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
What really resonated with you from this discussion, poll.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
I think for me it was how interconnected all these
challenges are.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
How housing affects innovation.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Exactly, and how energy scarcity limits our options for dealing
with climate change, and how even our institutions. Yeah, while
well intentioned can sometimes be the biggest obstacles to progress.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
That's a really important point.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
It makes you think about whether the systems we have
are still working for us.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Right, are they actually helping us achieve our goals? Yeah,
that's a big question. It is and it leads you
with this feeling of possibility right absolutely, that a better
future isn't just about wishing for it, but about creating it.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, taking action.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Building something new exactly. Thanks for joining us for this
deep dive into abundance on Bookcast.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Where we bring you the best sellers in minutes.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
We'll see you next time for another insightful exploration
Welcome back to Bookcasts, where we give you the best
sellers in minutes. And I'm Paul, Hi, I'm Sarah, And
today we're taking a deep dive into Abundance, a New
York Times bestseller by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
This book has a really compelling vision. You know, despite
all the challenges that we're facing right now, a future
full of abundance in things like energy, housing, technology. It's
not a pipe dream, yeah, they say it's actually within
our grasps.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Like genuinely possible.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yeah. So think of this as like a rapid download
of all the core arguments and the surprising insights of
this really important book.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Absolutely. And you know, the book drops you right into
this future scenario right away. Yeah, and asks you to
imagine a world, okay, powered by clean and really cheap
energy from solar, wind, nuclear, geothermal.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
And they contrast this with our reliance on fossil fuels, yeah,
which they kind of vividly describe as mining rocks and
burning them.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah. It really makes you think how we get our
energy right almost immediately Yeah, And they don't stop there, No,
they take this idea of abundance even further to how
we think about producing food. Oh okay, So imagine vertical farms,
you know, giving us all this fresh, local produce year round,
and we wouldn't need so much land for traditional agriculture.
(01:21):
And then there's cultivated meat grown in labs, potentially freeing
up huge amounts of land that we could use for
like rewilding and stuff. Oh wow, the very transformative picture
they paint it is.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
It's very different. It's a real shift in.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Thinking, absolutely, And what really struck me, Paul, is that
this big shift in our physical world. Yeah, it's happening
at the same time as this digital revolution that we're
all living through. And they suggest that we're right on
the edge of moving beyond what they call these braided crises,
things like housing, financial instability, pandemics, climate change, political gridlock.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Right those feel very twenty for century exactly, like this
is our world right now.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yeah, And it's a powerful idea, and the book doesn't
shy away from this central frustration. You know, for years,
especially in the US, it felt like we knew what
the solutions were to all this scarcity, Okay, whether it's
building more affordable housing or investing in clean energy. But
things just moved so slowly.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah, progress has been so slow.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
The authors dig into why those blockages existed, and it's
a fascinating part of.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
The book, absolutely, and that leads us right to what
they call the supply problem.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
They highlight this shift in economic and political thinking towards
the supply side. Okay, the realization that simply trying to
manage demand isn't enough if the supply of the things
we need isn't there to meet those needs.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
So it's not just about wanting things, it's about making
sure they exist in the first place.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Precisely, okay. And they challenge this traditional view of the economy,
you know, as a fixed.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Pie, right, like you get a bigger slice, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Just slicing up the same pie into smaller pieces. But
they say, no, true economic growth comes from innovation, from
creating entirely new, bigger pies, not just getting a bigger slice.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Okay, So creating more for everyone, not just fighting over
the same amount.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yeah, exactly, okay. And at the core of this pie making,
according to Klein and Thompson, is technology.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Oh interesting.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
They see it as this crucial tool for building a
more just world and more sustainable future. But they're also
careful to say that technology by itself isn't enough. It
needs to be embedded in you know, good policies, effective institutions,
so that it actually helps people.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
It's not just like tech for tech's sake, exactly. It
has to actually improve things precisely.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
And one of the most powerful illustrations of this idea
is the housing crisis.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
The housing crisis, wow.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
And they draw this insightful contrast between America's historical reliance
on this vast western expanse. You know, this idea of
like manifest destiny in the frontier as a source of
opportunity and our current reality were the most valuable land
for innovation and economic activity is.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
In our cities, right, so the opportunity is shifted exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
And they really emphasize, you know, the cost of housing
in these major urban centers. Yeah, Manhattan, San Francisco, La, Yeah, Seattle, Boston.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yeah, those places are so expensive.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
They've become these places where the cost of living makes
it nearly impossible. Do you even live there? Yeah, regardless
of your skills, yeah, or your contributions.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
You know, it doesn't even matter.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Like New York City has almost flipped from a place
you went to make your fortune to a place where
you need a fortune just just to live there. Wow,
and this has all these wider consequences, right, Yeah, like
what the book talks about the rise of this ideas
and services economy, and how innovation tends to cluster in
(04:59):
these dense urban environments. Right, even though like communication and
transportation have.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Improved, you think that would spread things out more.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
You'd think it would make it less important to be
in the same physical space. And this is where they
introduce this really important idea called the Great divergence.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
The Great diversions.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Okay, so while innovation is happening in these high cost cities,
the cost of housing is actually making it harder for
people to live there and participate in that.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
So they can't benefit from the innovation they're helping to create.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
That doesn't seem very fair.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
No, it's a real problem, and it has this cascading effect.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
You know the book explores the impact on local service
sector jobs.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Like teachers and nurses and retail workers.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Yeah exactly. Okay, where the high cost of living doesn't
necessarily lead to higher wages. That's interesting because their productivity
games aren't as big.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Right as in tech or finance or whatever.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Right, so they're stuck in this really difficult situation.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
That's a really important point, perhaps apps.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Most troublingly, they connect these really high housing costs to
the decline and.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Upward mobility like the American dream.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yeah, that idea that your kids will be better off
than you are, And they say that's much less.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Certain now and housing is a big part of that.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Housing affordability is a huge factor in this stagnation. And
then the book digs into the politics of this this
anti growth sentiment, and they trace this really interesting historical shift.
They contrast the post World War two era, where you know,
places like Lakewood, California, welcomed growth to accommodate a growing population.
(06:41):
Makes sense with the rise of measures to restrict it,
like the Petaluma Plan, which capped the number of new
housing units allowed, and this shift towards limiting growth is
everywhere now. Oh really, yeah, the numbers are really striking. California,
for example, used to issue over two hundred thousand housing
permits annually in the fifties and sixties.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Okay, since two.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Thousand and seven, they've never even hit one hundred and
fifty thousand in a single year.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Wow. So that's a huge drop.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
It's a massive change in how we think about building.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
It really is.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
And this anti growth sentiment has a very direct and
devastating consequence homelessness. And the book uses this really powerful analogy.
They say, it's like musical chairs.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Musical chair Okay.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
If there are more people, then there are chairs, right,
someone is going to be left standing when the music stops.
So in this case, the chairs are affordable homes, right,
And if we don't have enough, people will be left
without a place to live.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
That's a really good analogy.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
And it's not just an unfortunate circumstance, right. They're very
clear about this. It's a result of policy choices, decisions
that have constrained the housing supply. They also look at
the unintended consequences of home ownership becoming the prime merry
way people build wealth.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
In the US. Okay, So if your house is your
main asset, okay, you're going to.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Want to protect its value, right, And that can lead
to policies that restrict new construction.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Oh, because more housing would mean lower prices exactly. Okay,
I see.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
And they talk about zoning laws.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Zoning laws which.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Were originally intended to separate land uses.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Right, keep factories away from residential areas.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah, things like that, okay. But then after trucks and
buses made transportation easier, okay, those zoning laws increasingly became
tools to limit growth, oh interesting, and preserve the character
of existing neighborhoods, often at the expense of affordability.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
So they're kind of used against their original purpose almost
in a way, yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
And it's not just zoning. They look at environmental regulations too, okay,
like California's CEQA, the California Environmental Quality Act, which was
designed for environmental protection okay, but is now often used
to block development projects really for a variety of reasons,
some of which don't have a lot to do with
the environment. Oh so it's kind of been co opted
(09:10):
in a way for other purposes exactly. And moving beyond
the housing crisis, the book looks at this fascinating issue,
the productivity puzzle, a productivity puzzle, particularly in construction, and
it's kind of strange to learn that while productivity has
surged in other industries like manufacturing, Yeah, like manufacturing, it's
(09:32):
stagnated or even decline in construction since the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Well, it's really surprising, it is.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
And the author's site research that rules out a lack
of investment as the cause.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
So it's not just about not putting enough money in.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
No. They even wonder if we're measuring construction output accurately.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Interesting, But even accounting for things like the size of
houses built per worker, the productivity gains are tiny compared
to other sectors.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
So something else must be going on exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
And this leads them to this theory of sclerosis. Sclerosis
in wealthy societies.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
What is that?
Speaker 1 (10:08):
The idea that as societies get older and richer, they
develop more special interest groups and more veto points in.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Their systems veto points, Okay.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Which makes it harder to get things.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Done, so more people have the power to say no to.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Things essentially, yeah. Ok And they specifically talk about the
role of lawyers and what they call adversarial legalism in
slowing things down.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Okay. So our legal system is designed to be.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Fair, yeah, to make sure everyone is accountable, right, but
it can also become an obstacle okay, with endless lawsuits
and regulatory hurdles.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
So it could be used to block things.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Even things that might be beneficial, oh wow, like renewable
energy or affordable housing. To define adversarial legalism a little more,
it means relying heavily on lawsuits and courts to resolve
disputes and enforce regulations.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Okay. So it becomes a very legalistic process.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, exactly. And they use Ralph Nader's Consumer Protection movement
as an example.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Ralph Vader.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Okay, so his work led to really important environmental and
safety laws, but it also created this system that's very
prone to lawsuits, okay, which can now be used to
block projects, even good ones.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
So even if a project might benefit society as a whole.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Yeah, okay, it can get bogged down in legal challenges.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
That's a really interesting point.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
And this is connected to something they call the procedure fetish.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Procedure fetish. What's that?
Speaker 1 (11:37):
This idea that in government there's often this huge emphasis
on process, okay, on following every rule perfectly right, sometimes
at the expense of achieving the actual goals.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
So you're so focused on dotting your eyes and crossing
your t's yeah, that you lose sight of the bigger.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Picture exactly, and this can lead to bureaucratic delays okay,
and just the lack of effectiveness and government.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Right, so things just take forever and don't really work precisely.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
And they use California's high speed rail project as an example.
Oh yeah, that's been going on for a long time,
years of planning, billions of dollars, and the project is
still mired in uncertainty, wow, with delays and cost overruns.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
So those delays actually cost money too.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Absolutely. They emphasize that the longer it takes, the more
expensive it gets.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Lass of vicious cycle it really is, okay.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
And then the book shifts gears a bit to talk
about energy transition.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Energy transition, okay, so moving away.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
From fossil fuels, and they highlight the political obstacles to this.
You know, we see protests all over the world over
rising fuel prices and resistance to certain green energy policies,
and this just underscores how crucial energy abundance is. They
call it the nucleus of wealth.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Wow, the nucleus of wealth.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
And they talk about how inequality is tied to energy
scarcity and how clean and abundant energy could help us
solve environmental problems, okay, through things like vertical greenhouses, desalination,
carbon capture. So there's this huge potential there there is, Yeah,
but achieving that clean energy abundance is a huge undertaking.
(13:17):
What way they emphasize the scale of it. Okay, we'd
need to build the equivalent of the entire US electricity
grid multiple times over by twenty fifty.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
But using all renewables, that's.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
A massive amount of infrastructure, it is.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
And that presents all sorts of challenges like what land
use for solar and wind farms? Right, building new long
distance transmission lines Okay, it's not a small task.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
It sounds really complicated, it is.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
And this leads to a discussion about innovation itself, okay,
and they challenge what they call the.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Eureka myth, the Eureka biky, this.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Romantic idea that progress is driven by sudden, brilliant inventions,
right like the light bulb mall mess Yeah, exactly, Okay,
But they say the really important part is implementation, Okay,
actually taking those inventions and scaling them up.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
So it's not enough to just have a good idea.
Do you have to be able to make it work
in the real world.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Exactly, And they use the development of penicillin as an example,
pil So it was this huge scientific breakthrough, but initially
it languished because there was no effective way to mass
produce it.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Oh so it was a great idea, but nobody could
use it. Yeah, exactly, okay.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
And they also challenged the idea that markets can do
this scaling up on their own. They say government has
a crucial role to play. Oh interesting, And they point
to Operation.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Warp Speed the COVID vaccines, Yes, okay as a good
example of government led implementation.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Okay, So in a crisis, the government can really step
up and make things happen precisely, okay.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
But they also talk about what they call the Carrico problem,
the Carrico problem. Who's Carrico? So calling Carrico was this
scientist who did decades of research on mRNA oh wow,
which was really important for the COVID vaccine okay, but
her work was largely ignored for a long time. Oh really, Yeah,
and this is what they call the Kaiec problem. So
(15:08):
sometimes really important research gets overlooked. Exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
And they also critique some aspects of the NIH funding system.
Speaker 2 (15:16):
The National Institutes of Health.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, saying it can be too risk averse okay. You know,
favoring incremental research over potentially groundbreaking but risky.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Stuff, so playing it safe.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Yes, And they also point to the emphasis on grantsmanship,
being really good at writing grant proposals, which might sometimes
overshadow the actual scientific merit of the research.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
So you could have a really good idea, yeah, but
if you're not good at writing about it, you might
not get the funding.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
And they contrast this with DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research
Projects Agency, which gives program managers more flexibility and encourages
risky research and collaborate across.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Different fields, so a very different approach. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
And they argue that we need a better science.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Of science, a science of science, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
To figure out how to nurture innovation more effectively.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
That makes sense, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
And finally, the book looks at what they call a
politics of abundance.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
A politics of abundance interesting.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
So they discuss these political orders which are like dominant
sets of beliefs about how to govern, and they say
there's potential for a new one.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
To emerge, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Focused on achieving abundance, moving beyond these neoliberal ideas that
have been around for a while. And they contrast the
scarcity focused narratives of right wing populism with the potential
for progressives to embrace an abundance driven agenda.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
So instead of fighting over a limited pie, we can
focus on baking more pies exactly, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
And they point to the rise of the y and
b y movement yes in my backyard as a sign
of this.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Shift towards being more open to development exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
And they note the growing bipartisan support for building more
in the US, Yeah, driven in part by competition with China.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Okay, So there's this sense that we need to be
building more, okay.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
But they also acknowledge that it's not easy to rapidly
deploy these projects, right, even when there's political will and
the money, So.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
There are still obstacles to overcome.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Absolutely, And they frame this pursuit of abundance as kind
of going back to the roots of leftist thought, which
emphasize production and material.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Progress, so making sure people have what they need.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Exactly, okay. And they stress the need for tailored solutions
for different industries okay, because different industries face different.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Bottlenecks, right, So there's no one size fits all solutions precisely, okay.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
And this is where bottleneck.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Detection comes in.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Bottleneck detection really understanding how industries work, okay, to identify
what's holding them back.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Okay. So it's like finding the weakest link in the chain.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Yeah, exactly. And they give an example the artificial scarcity
of primary care physicians. Interesting, so we don't have enough
primary care doctors and that's a bottleneck.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
In the healthcare system. Okay, I see.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
And they discuss different policy tools for fostering abundance, like
push funding through government grants and loans okay, and pull
funding things like prizes and advanced market commitments, which they
say have been successful in things like vaccine development. And
they come back to energy abundance again as a crucial
(18:35):
bottleneck to address.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Because it affects so many other things exactly.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
You know, it would make things more affordable and could
drive innovation in other areas like AI and desalination.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
So it's really foundational, it is.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
And they close with this vision for a liberalism.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
That builds, Liberalism that builds okay.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Focused on actually making progress in housing, energy, healthcare, infrastructure.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
So it's about delivering tangible results.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Exactly, and they see this as tapping into this American
tradition of thinking big and embracing progress through technology and institution.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Okay, So it's about using our strengths yea, to create
a better future exactly. Wow.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
So Abundance really presents this thought provoking and optimistic vision
of a future where we can overcome these challenges, Okay,
by focusing on building, innovating, and removing the barriers to progress.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
It's a really inspiring message, it is. So this has
just been a quick overview of some of the key
arguments and insights from Abundance.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, we definitely encourage you to pick up a copy
and really dive into it.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
There's so much more to explore.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
What really resonated with you from this discussion, poll.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
I think for me it was how interconnected all these
challenges are.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
How housing affects innovation.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Exactly, and how energy scarcity limits our options for dealing
with climate change, and how even our institutions. Yeah, while
well intentioned can sometimes be the biggest obstacles to progress.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
That's a really important point.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
It makes you think about whether the systems we have
are still working for us.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Right, are they actually helping us achieve our goals? Yeah,
that's a big question. It is and it leads you
with this feeling of possibility right absolutely, that a better
future isn't just about wishing for it, but about creating it.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, taking action.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Building something new exactly. Thanks for joining us for this
deep dive into abundance on Bookcast.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Where we bring you the best sellers in minutes.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
We'll see you next time for another insightful exploration
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