March 30, 2025 • 26 mins
🔥 Welcome to BOOKKAST - Bestsellers in Minutes! Today, we're diving into CHAOS: Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the Sixties by Tom O’Neill and Dan Piepenbring — a gripping, 20-year investigation that challenges everything you think you know about the Manson murders and exposes hidden connections to the CIA and government cover-ups.
📖 In this episode, you’ll discover:
✅ How Tom O’Neill uncovered shocking contradictions in the official narrative presented by Vincent Bugliosi in Helter Skelter
✅ The fragile foundations of the Manson trial and the suppressed truths surrounding Terry Melcher, Roman Polanski, and Hollywood’s dark secrets
✅ Possible links between Charles Manson and covert CIA operations, mind control experiments, and the hidden agendas of the 1960s
✅ The chilling psychological manipulation techniques Manson used to control his followers
✅ The dark side of 1960s Hollywood, drug smuggling networks, and mob involvement that might have played a bigger role than anyone dared to admit
🎥 Why should you watch this video? If you love true crime, conspiracies, and hidden history — this is for you. O’Neill’s work forces us to ask: what was real, what was staged, and how much did the government know?
📖 In this episode, you’ll discover:
✅ How Tom O’Neill uncovered shocking contradictions in the official narrative presented by Vincent Bugliosi in Helter Skelter
✅ The fragile foundations of the Manson trial and the suppressed truths surrounding Terry Melcher, Roman Polanski, and Hollywood’s dark secrets
✅ Possible links between Charles Manson and covert CIA operations, mind control experiments, and the hidden agendas of the 1960s
✅ The chilling psychological manipulation techniques Manson used to control his followers
✅ The dark side of 1960s Hollywood, drug smuggling networks, and mob involvement that might have played a bigger role than anyone dared to admit
🎥 Why should you watch this video? If you love true crime, conspiracies, and hidden history — this is for you. O’Neill’s work forces us to ask: what was real, what was staged, and how much did the government know?
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, so welcome back to Bookcast, where we bring
(00:01):
you the best sellers in minutes. I'm Paul and I'm Sarah,
and today we're diving deep into Chaos. Chaos Charles Manson,
the CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties by
Tom O'Neil and Dan Pipeenbring. And you're probably here listening
because you're interested in the Manson case, but you're also
interested in, like how stories and narratives around major events
(00:22):
get made and how they can be challenged even like
decades later. You know, you're looking for the surprising facts,
the insights that might actually like shift your understanding of
this story without getting bogged down at a ton of detail.
And that's what we're hoping to do today. And this book,
Chaos really is sort of positioning itself as a direct
challenge to the long accepted narrative of the Manson murders,
and particularly Vincent Bugliosi's huge best seller Helter Skelter. This
(00:46):
isn't just a straightforward account of the Manson family murders.
It's really a two decade long investigation that questions almost
everything we thought we knew about this case. And one
of the things that immediately grabbed me was O'Neill's recounting
of his interactions with Blugliosi, and the offensiveness, even all
these years later from the prosecutor just feels really significant.
You know, Boogliosi even threatened a massive libel lawsuit against
(01:09):
O'Neil for even looking into this further, and it just
makes you wonder what sensitive areas O'Neil was uncovering. What
do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, I mean it definitely raises a bunch of red flags, right,
It suggests that the narrative is more fragile than we think.
And I think that O'Neill from the start is very
clear that his goal wasn't to excuse Manson in any way.
You know, he straight up calls him evil in the book.
But his goal was just to really find out what
actually happened. And I thought it was so interesting that
Stephen Kay, who was Boogliosi's co prosecutor, you know, he
(01:39):
worked on this case with him, actually felt that there
were notes in Boogliosi's handwriting that could overturn the Manson
family's verdicts. So that's a pretty powerful statement coming from
someone who was literally right there.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
In the courtroom.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah, it really highlights that there are some potential cracks
in the official story. And that's what you were kind
of hoping to find out more about. Right when you
suggested we look at this book. I was so intrigued
by that.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
And you know another thing that O'Neill talks about is
his own experience reading Helter Skelter before starting his investigation,
and even though this is like super infamous case, he
found it completely absorbing. You know, all these like disturbing
details he'd never heard before, and it kind of transformed
the story from something that was just familiar to something
that was super intriguing. And it really makes it clear
(02:22):
why he felt so compelled to spend so much time
and energy digging deeper so you can see, like the
origin story of the book Chaos starts with Helter Skelter. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
It all right, So let's get into some specifics of
the book.
Speaker 6 (02:33):
Let's start with the lead up to the tape murders
at one zero fifty Clow Drive. The book just briefly
touches on Patricia Creenwinkle's early life, you know, talking about
like a hormone issue that led to overeating and feelings
of being unwanted, and that seems to have contributed to
drug use or her disappearance in nineteen sixty seven. It
paints this picture of someone who was vulnerable before she
(02:55):
encountered Manson.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah. I mean that's a crucial piece of context, right.
You know, a lot of the members of the family
came from really difficult and often traumatic backgrounds, and you
start to think about how someone like Manson could pray
on that vulnerability. The book then goes on to describe
the scene at Ciela Drive, noting that Roman Polanski was
actually absent that night because he was in London, and
they emphasize how secluded the house was almost invisible from
(03:18):
the street, which adds another layer of unease, I think
to the whole story. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (03:23):
Absolutely, And then of course the book goes on to
recount the horrific details of Sharon Tate's murder by Susan
Atkins and Tex Watson. It's just awful to read about
Tate's desperate pleas for her life and for her unborn child.
Atkins's response is so cold, and the brutality of the
multiple stab wounds is just devastating. It's just this awful
reminder of the human cost of this whole thing.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
It is, and the book then pivots to look at
the broader societal impact of the crimes. And it's really
striking to me how these murders just shattered the image
of the hippie movement. You know, suddenly this counterculture, which
had been viewed by some as you know, relatively harmless
expression of youthful idealism, was now associating with unimaginable violence
in the public mind. And that really dramatically shifted the
(04:04):
narrative about the hippies, didn't it. Yeah, in the fueled
existing anxieties about you know, youth culture and drug use
in this sense that traditional order was being undermined. I mean,
there's an estimate in the book that like thirty three
people might have been killed simply because Manson ordered it,
which gives you a sense of the scale of the
violence potentially linked back to him absolutely. So to understand
(04:25):
how Manson could have exerted so much control, the book
looks back at his extensive history within the federal reformatory system,
you know, his long record of antisocial behavior and the
psychic trauma that he endured, you know, instances of rape
and escapes, going all the way back to his teenage years.
It's just this picture of a deeply disturbed individual long
before nineteen sixty nine. It makes you wonder how someone
(04:47):
with that history could have been able to operate so freely.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Absolutely, And O'Neil talks about watching early television footage of
Manson and he was surprised because he doesn't see this
like charismatic figure that we often hear about. He sees
an unsocial air and a kind of jail house aggression
which maybe got misinterpreted his authenticity. The book also mentions
Manson's behavior during the pre trial hearings, you know, demanding
(05:10):
to represent himself and his followers mimicking his defiance, all
really showing like the level of control he maintained even
within the legal system. And then we get to this
infamous helter Skelter motive, the whole idea of racial tension
and apocalyptic prophecies and messages in rock music, and the
book really stresses that this was a totally novel theory
that was introduced in the courtroom, you know, Paul Watkins's
(05:32):
testimony about an underground city awaiting the family after a
race war, almost sounds unbelievable, that I know, and.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
It was drawn from the Book of Revelation, you know,
trying to find these hidden messages. And then you had
the convicted women's testimony, you know, where they completely absolved
Manson and they expressed no remorse. Their explanation that, you know,
killing was actually an act of love that freed the
victim from their physical being. It's so chilling, you know,
Susan Atkins's clinical recollection of stabbing Sharon Tate is just
(05:58):
harrowing to read. It really showed how affected his manipulation
was and how deeply he warped their sense of reality
and morality.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
You know, the book actually delves into accounts from former
family members about Manson's brainwashing techniques. It started with overwhelming
displays of affection, sex, and drugs. You know, the book
describes these near weekly orgies at the Spawn ranch that
Manson orchestrated. It's unsettling. Googliosi even describes Manson arranging bodies
(06:28):
like a sculptor. It's really disturbing. And then, you know,
during the death penalty phase, the defense actually argued that
Manson had brainwashed his followers. You know, they brought in
psychiatric experts who discussed how LSD could reshape someone's personality
and how the guide during an acid trip could implant
violent ideas. It just raises all these questions about free
will and manipulation absolutely, and the book also looks at
(06:50):
some of the contradictions surrounding the atmosphere at Cielo Drive
before the murders. You know, the media was so quick
to blame Hollywood's decadence, that kind of live freaky, freaky attitude.
They argue that it created this environment where violence was inevitable.
But then O'Neill really starts to pick apart the helter
Skelter motive. He questioned the idea that Manson targeted the
Celo house to scare Terry Melcher.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
The record producer who turned him down, because the.
Speaker 8 (07:14):
Family never actually communicated this motive to Melcher.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
It just seems like this fundamental flaw in the narrative,
doesn't it.
Speaker 8 (07:20):
How do you instill fear in someone if they don't
know it's directed at them exactly?
Speaker 3 (07:24):
And this leads O'Neil to really start exploring other possibilities.
He talks about how hard it was for him to
actually get Hollywood figures to talk about the aftermass of
the murders, and people like Bruce Dern and Kirk Douglas
declined to be interviewed. It seems like there's a lingering
discomfort around the whole topic here, even decades later. Right,
and the book touches on some of those more sensational
rumors surrounding Roan Polanski and Sharon Tate's relationship. Allegations of
(07:48):
film sexual encounters and orgies. Brings in perspective from people
like Dominic Dunn and James Toback, who just as this
whole other layer of intrigue to the story, and friends
of Sharon hit even mentioned that she was uncomfortable with
some of Plancy's friends, particularly Fraikowski and Folger, the just
in tension within that group. It paints a more complex
picture of the social circle.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, and then it goes deeper into the relationship between
Tate and Polanski, even Tate's own thoughts about leaving him.
You know, someone even says that Tate wound up getting
murdered because he's fooling around in London. It's harsh, but
it hints at other issues, potentially issues that go beyond Manson.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah, it kind of shifts the focus a little bit
away from Manson being the sole driving force, you know,
it introduces the idea that there might have been more
media and personal conflicts involved.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Absolutely. And then the book starts looking at Fraikowski's connections
to a much more dangerous crowd, you know, bringing in
figures like Pickett Dawson who was involved in drug smuggling
and it even threatened Fraikowski.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
And then we get to Billy Doyle and Charles Taco
with their alleged ties to drug dealing and intelligence agencies.
There's even a story about Frakowski and Seabring retaliating against
Doyle and a party. It's really unsettling. Yeah, Tacho is
like this super enigmatic figure. Rumors of CIA connections, knife throwing,
drug smuggling, it just goes on and on. It's really
hard to confirm any of it. But then you have
Karn Calvit's alarming stories involving Tacho.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
It adds to this feeling that there are these hidden
dangerous forces at play.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yeah, and Billy Doyle's shifting accounts and his belief that
Polanski and Prakowski were Polish spies. It's really strange and
his alibi for the Knight of the Murders that he
and Taco were filming a pot movie in Jamaica, which
he later admitted was a cover for intelligence work. It
just raises so much suspicion. It really points to a
deeper level of intrigue than we would have thought.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Yeah, and Doyle just became convinced that there was more
to the murders than the official story. He even thought
that O'Neil was Polanski's private investigator. It really shows you
the paranoia and distrust that was going on. You know,
you mentioned O'Neil's focus on Doyle and Taco as potential
sources of motive instead of the helter skelter theory, and
it really starts to become this key part of his
challenge to the established narrative.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Yeah, and we also can't forget about the presence of
mob figures and criminals around Jay Sebrings shop. There's this
character called bar who had alleged mob ties and security
intelligence clearance, and there are these unsettling allegations that Baron
and his associates did terrible things to black people.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
And Charlie being the worst of them. So it really
broadens the scope of potential actors and motives.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 9 (10:15):
And then the book kind of circles back to Terry
Melcher as like the most direct link between Manson and Hollywood,
you know, focusing on his initial promise of a record
deal and is subsequent backing out. And so then we
revisit that official explanation of Manson targeting Melcher's former house
to instill fear, which you know we've already discussed. O'Neil
just doesn't find that explanation very convincing.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, that's a big part of his argument, right, and
Melcher's testimony that he only met Manson three times before
the murders. It was really interesting. O'Neill introduced this idea
of the golden penetrators Wilson, Jacobson, and Melcher, and he
questions why they remain so silent after the murders, even
though they probably suspected Manson. It suggests that they didn't
want to cooperate with the investigation, or maybe they were
afraid of what they might reveal, you know. And then
(10:59):
there's ye to Belly, who owned the Silo Drive house.
The book mentions that he was immediately suspicious of Manson
after the murders, and his lawyer advised him to stay quiet.
He ends up staying with melcher In Candice Bergen after
the murders, and Jacobson makes this cryptic remark about the
musician that Manson was supposed to have killed, just hints
this deeper, unspoken understanding within this Hollywood circle that was
(11:23):
never really explored. It just seems like there's more to
it than meets the eye.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Yeah, and then there's Melterer's strong attachment to the Soilo
drivehouse and his and Bergen's sudden departure blaming their housekeeper.
It's just suspicious. They clearly wanted to distance themselves from
the location and any potential connections to the murders. And
this defense attorney Bill Nelson managed to get police files
from a polygraph examiner in the Tate investigation named Earl Deemer,
(11:47):
and later from a retired homicide detective Mike McGann, and
those files gave O'Neill this crucial source of information outside
the official channels that really helped him build his argument. Yeah,
and then you get this bombshell from Stephen that Manson
and Watson actually attended a party at the Colo House
when Melcher and Bergen lived there. That gives you another
more direct reason for why Manson might have targeted that
(12:09):
specific location.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
And it contradicts Melcher's sworn testimony that he never saw
Watson in his house. It's a significant inconsistency that O'Neill
brings the light right. It totally undermines Melcher's credibility and
that whole idea that the motive was just to instill
fear and Melcher because of the record deal. And then
O'Neil talks about this unsettling encounter with Manson's former attorney,
(12:31):
Irving Kanarekt, who made some very serious accusations against Buliosi,
like claiming he was an indicted perjurer and making some
claims about his personal conduct which were unsubstantiated, and you know,
you kind of have to take canonic statements with a
grand AsSalt. But O'Neill later confirms that Bugliosi was indicted
for perjury because of the leak of Manson's alleged celebrity
hit list during the trial, which is really something, I mean,
(12:53):
it paints a picture of a much less straightforward legal process.
And then we have Melcher's conflicting testimony about when he
last saw Manson. Evidence suggests that he saw him after
May nineteen sixty nine, despite what he said under oath.
And we also never even questioned Danny DeCarlo about Melcher,
even though the Carlo was present as Bond Ranch.
Speaker 10 (13:09):
It seems like a pretty big oversight in the investigation.
And Gary Stromberg, who worked with Terry Melcher, he confirms
that everyone in their circle suspected Manson immediately after the murders,
because Meltcher fired him and stopped his recordings, and because
they knew that the family had already murdered Shorty Shay.
The Beach Boys were even ostracized because of their association
with Manson. So it really underscores that immediate suspicion within
the Hollywood community, right, and the LASO archives had even
(13:33):
more evidence, you know. Paul Watkins also reports seeing Melcher
at the Spawn Ranch around the same time as Danny
Decrlo in early September nineteen sixty nine, you know, after
the murders. So again, this presence of Melcher at the
ranch after the murders directly contradicts his testimony and it
raises these questions about what he knew and when he
knew it yet really complicates the official narrative definitely. And
then O'Neil describes his eventual meeting with Terry Melcher in
(13:55):
two thousand, you know, noting his appearance and demeanor, and
Melcher offers O'Neil the chance to co author his memoirs,
which really feels like a transparent attempt to control the narrative, doesn't.
Speaker 11 (14:07):
It It does.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
And then Greg Jacobson's inconsistent statements, especially about whether man'son
new Melcher had moved and the green Spy glass incident.
It just highlights the unreliability of some of these key witnesses, right.
And then the thirtieth anniversary of the murders passes and
O'Neill's story still hasn't been published, even though the editor
at Premiere was initially enthusiastic, And that kind of suggests
how difficult it is to challenge such a deeply entrenched narrative.
(14:31):
So this really leads O'Neil to focus more intently on
potential discrepancies and cover ups within LESO, the Los Angeles
County Sheriff's office, right, and a defense attorney named Paul Fitzgerald,
becomes a key contact, giving O'Neill the number for Charlie Gunther,
who Fitzgerald describes as an honest cop, and Gunther and
his partner Whitely become these important sources for O'Neil, revealing
(14:52):
what they perceived as a series of misteps and potential
cover ups within LSO Right and the book also talks
about this tape recording of Bobby Boselet's Foo call from
jail where he implicates others in the Himman murder, but
Laso seems to have ignored this call.
Speaker 12 (15:05):
Another prosecutor, Aaron Stove, It's even believe that the Tate
Lobyanca murders were copycat crimes, but he felt that Bugilosi's
narrative has controlled everything. So again it's pointing to these
alternative interpretations that were never really considered. Yeah, and then
you have Preston Gilliery, who was an La SU deputy
involved in the Spawn Ranch raid. His conduct was really questionable,
(15:26):
and Laso tried to discredit him after he spoke out,
and Guillory believed that Laso knew early on that the
family committed the murders and that the raid gave them
enough evidence to violate Manson's parole, but they didn't do
anything about it. You know, O'Neil got access to LASO
reports on activities at the Staun Ranch, and those reports
reveal a significant amount of surveillance and intelligence gathering that
(15:47):
was going on, and it really raises the question of
why wasn't Manson apprehended sooner.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
You know, they even got a warrant for his arrest
on suspicion of stolen vehicles and other charges just before
the tate Leveanca murders. It just seems like they had
enough to arrest him, but they didn't.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
I know. And the deputies who arrested Manson after the
Spawn Ranch raid were surprised that he wasn't charged. They
felt they had ample grounds for parole revocation based on
all these charges against him from the first half of
nineteen sixty nine. It seems like there's a deliberate decision
not to keep him incarcerated. And then there's Gleeson who
organized that Spawn Ranch raid. He failed to connect Kitty Lutzinger,
(16:21):
who was a suspect in the Hindman murder and Bosolet's
girlfriend to the people who were arrested at the ranch.
Even though she was right there in custody. Seems like a.
Speaker 11 (16:29):
Big oversight, Yeah, it does. And then later la So
was reluctant to share information with O'Neil, saying there's stuff
you can never be told. Just reinforces that sense that
they're hiding something.
Speaker 5 (16:40):
It really does.
Speaker 8 (16:41):
And then there were the conflicting accounts of Shiro Katami.
He was a witness at the Salo Drive guesthouse, and
of these allegations that his testimony was coerced by Reeve Whitson,
who worked with the DA's office. You know, Bugliosi denied
even knowing Whitson, but other sources contradicted that. So it
really raised the serious questions about the integrity of the
prosecution's case.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
It does, and Reevewitz has becomes this really central figure
to O'Neill's investigation, you know, with these alleged CIA ties
and his cryptic behavior, his connections to Sebring and Polanski
and even the Beach Boys through whom he supposedly met
Manson before the murders, It just paints this picture of
a much larger and more complex web of connections than
(17:21):
we initially imagine. You know, Witson's ex wife even talks
about his CIA work and his habit of trying to
avoid detection. It's like he was living this double life.
The book even suggests that Witson might have just been
a con artist, but if he was a real intelligence operative,
it raises all these disturbing questions about his potential knowledge
of the murders.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
And the book kind of expands this out even further
to talk about CIA programs like co Intel pro and Chaos,
you know, highlighting the FBI's efforts to disrupt left wing
groups and the CIA's domestic intelligence gathering during that era.
And this provides this broader context of government surveillance and
manipulation could connect to the Manson story. You know, a
lot of people kind of downplayed Manson's race war motive,
(18:05):
and it's interesting how it aligned with the goals.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Of certain federal agencies at that time.
Speaker 10 (18:09):
You know, that's a really good point.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
And then we can't forget about the withholding of evidence
related to the Manson family from Prosecutor Bill Ross by
his superiors and the detectives Gunther and Whiteley in the
Hindman murder case. Ross immediately saw the connection between the
Hindman murder and the Tate LaBianca killings, but he was
deliberately kept in the dark. It's really strange, it is.
(18:31):
And then the dismissal of Danny de Carlo as an
unreliable witness by Ross during the Hindman trial, you know,
that highlights these internal conflicts and these differing opinions within
the Die's office regarding key witnesses. So it really complicates
this idea of a unified and straightforward prosecution.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (18:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 13 (18:47):
And then you have the unusual circumstances surrounding Susan Atkins's
legal representation, you know, the dismissal of her initial attorney,
Ronald Hughes, and then the assignment.
Speaker 8 (18:56):
Of Richard Cabierro.
Speaker 13 (18:57):
It raises questions about potential manipulation of the Eagle process,
you know. And then there's this unusual arrangement that allowed
Atkins to be interviewed by her lawyers in Beverly Hills
before the grand jury and her story about Sharon Tate's
murder changes. It just suggests that her testimony might have
been orchestrated.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
And Akins's story was then published by Lawrence Shiller, potentially
with help from the Day's office. Just before a gag
order was issued, So it's like this coordinated effort to
control the public narrative. It does feel that way, and
O'Neil even mentions this secretive special investigation section within the
LAPD known as the Death Squad, and allegations of their
(19:33):
controversial policies. It just adds this other layer of potential
misconduct and unaccountability, right, and then there's this really explosive
claim from a former LAPD detective named Bowser that the
Take crime scene was presented incorrectly or possibly even staged,
so that directly challenges the entire foundation of the official narrative.
It's pretty shocking. And then you know there's this continued
(19:54):
suppression of files by various agencies related to the case.
You know, it underscores this ongoing lack of transparency. It
just makes you think that there's still information out there
that might contradict the accepted story. And then Premier fires
their editor, Jim Meeks, who support O'Neil's investigations, So you
see those powerful forces at play trying to suppress alternative accounts.
And then the book looks at the unusual clemency that
(20:16):
was shown to Susan Atkins and Mary Brunner in earlier
cases despite their criminal behavior, you know that clemency often
came about because of Roger Smith, Manson's parole officer, who
failed to disclose his close relationship with Manson. It just
changes how you view those early stages of Manson's influence,
and Smith's background in criminology research is really interesting. You know,
(20:37):
specifically research on amphetamines and violence in Hate Ashbury Hippies
I was actually funded by the National Institute of Mental Health,
which had ties to the CIA, and Manson's time in
Hate Ashbury becomes this really critical period in his development
as a cult leader, and Roger Smith's lack of proper
parole supervision really seems to have played a role on that.
(20:57):
So you have the San Francisco project that Smith's super
Manson on and the amfetamine research project that Smith led,
and they ran him concurrently during the time when Manson
wasn't really getting much parole oversight. It raises all these
questions about Smith's competence, whether he was enabling Manson's behavior absolutely,
And then you have David Smith's research on the speed
scene and it's parallels to animal behavior, and he actually
(21:20):
co authored a study of the family with a former
Manson follower, so it offers this really disturbing academic perspective
on the dynamics of the group, but his views were
often in conflict with Roger Smith's. It's so interesting how
Roger Smith downplayed any parallels between his research in Manson's behavior,
but David Smith saw clear connections to his work on
overcrowded environments and social breakdown.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Yeah, and the fact that Roger Smith never really intervened
in Manson's behavior or reported his drug use or manipulation
of others. That's a huge dereliction of duty for a
parole officer.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
It is. And then David Smith and Al Rose published
this study of the Manson family shortly after the murders,
and Smith really downplays Rose's direct involvement as a follower,
so it highlights the potential biases that were going on
and those early attempts to really understand the family. And
then you know, Roger Smith finally agrees to speak with
O'Neil after years of silence. He doesn't seem to feel
any guilt about it at all. It's kind of chilling,
(22:14):
it is.
Speaker 14 (22:15):
And then the book explores the involvement of Lewis J. West,
a psychiatrist with alleged CIA ties and documented involvement in
M culture experiments. He was involved in the Hayte Ashbury
scene during the same time Manson was there. The description
of Wes's lab disguised as a hippie crash pad is
really unsettling. It is and Wes had all these research interests,
including the Manson murders, and he had documented connections to
(22:37):
the CIA and M culture, to people like Sidney Gottlieb.
It raises these questions about the links between mind control
experiments and the counterculture. Absolutely, and West did these experiments
with LSD and truth serums. He even evaluated Jack Ruby,
so it really underscores his involvement in this controversial research,
and you wonder about his potential influence on people like
Manson and on the counterculture scene in general. And O'Neil
(23:01):
tries to share his findings with Senator Arle inspector who
investigated him culture, and O'Neill starts to get really paranoid
about his access to West's files. It's like he stumbled
onto something really sensitive and potentially dangerous. And then O'Neil
kind of reflects on the complexity of everything he's found.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
He acknowledges that there's not really a single smoking gun,
but there's this overwhelming amount of evidence that contradicts the
official narrative. And it's hard to believe that all of
these different law enforcement agencies would have cooperated so perfectly
to solve this case as the official story suggests. I mean,
it does seem highly unlike that. And the book talks
about Vincent Bugliosi's history of using aggressive tactics. You know,
(23:38):
he sued the Weissles for slantered defamation, which he eventually settled,
but it shows how litigious he was and how determined
he was to control the narrative. And Bugliosi initially refused
to be interviewed by O'Neill again. He cited unnamed sources
and made accusations against O'Neill. He just didn't want to
engage with these alternative perspectives.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah, and when O'Neill finally does get to interview Boo Gliosi,
it's a contentious interview. Buliosi even threatens to sue him,
and he deflects key questions, particularly about Terry Melcher's post
murder visits to the Spawn ranch. It's like he knew
how significant that information was, but he tried to dismiss it.
There was this back and forth between Bougliosi and O'Neill's
publisher Penguin.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
And O'Neil actually prepared to defend himself against a lawsuit.
So it just shows how high the stakes were. Right
and then O'Neil starts looking into the deaths of Joel
Bugh in London and John phelp Tennarelli in Bishop both
of which were initially ruled suicides. But there are all
these suspicious circumstances and overlooked evidence that suggests potential connections
to the family. It makes you wonder about the full
scope of the family's activities and whether all of the
(24:39):
relevant information came to light in the original investigations. And
in the end, O'Neill doesn't claim to have found the
absolute truth, but he does aim to prove that the
official story is flawed. You know, he emphasizes that lack
of transparency from official agencies, and you see that continued
secrecy in the ongoing legal battles over tex Watson's recorded interviews,
which are still being kept from the public. And even
(25:01):
from the victim's families. O'Neil even has this brief phone
conversation with Manson in two thousand. It highlights that this
case remains a mystery even all these years later. And
you can really see the depth of O'Neill's investigation just
in the extensive list of sources at the end of
the book. Yeah. So, as you can see from this
deep dive into chaos, there are so many layers in
unanswered questions surrounding the man's in family story. It really
(25:24):
makes you think about the complexity of historical narratives and
the potential for hidden truths. O'Neil's research really challenges that
long accepted version of events. Yeah, and I think for
you the listener, it highlights the importance of looking beyond
the surface and considering alternative perspectives, even when a case
seems as well documented as this one. It really makes
(25:44):
you think about how we understand events and how those
events get shaped into history. Definitely, So that's your book
cast for today Bestsellers in minutes. We hope you enjoyed
this deep dive into chaos and that it sparked your
curiosity to explore these findings and to think about all
the questions that are raised about this really fascinating case.
Until next time, keep turning those pages
All right, so welcome back to Bookcast, where we bring
(00:01):
you the best sellers in minutes. I'm Paul and I'm Sarah,
and today we're diving deep into Chaos. Chaos Charles Manson,
the CIA and the Secret History of the Sixties by
Tom O'Neil and Dan Pipeenbring. And you're probably here listening
because you're interested in the Manson case, but you're also
interested in, like how stories and narratives around major events
(00:22):
get made and how they can be challenged even like
decades later. You know, you're looking for the surprising facts,
the insights that might actually like shift your understanding of
this story without getting bogged down at a ton of detail.
And that's what we're hoping to do today. And this book,
Chaos really is sort of positioning itself as a direct
challenge to the long accepted narrative of the Manson murders,
and particularly Vincent Bugliosi's huge best seller Helter Skelter. This
(00:46):
isn't just a straightforward account of the Manson family murders.
It's really a two decade long investigation that questions almost
everything we thought we knew about this case. And one
of the things that immediately grabbed me was O'Neill's recounting
of his interactions with Blugliosi, and the offensiveness, even all
these years later from the prosecutor just feels really significant.
You know, Boogliosi even threatened a massive libel lawsuit against
(01:09):
O'Neil for even looking into this further, and it just
makes you wonder what sensitive areas O'Neil was uncovering. What
do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Yeah, I mean it definitely raises a bunch of red flags, right,
It suggests that the narrative is more fragile than we think.
And I think that O'Neill from the start is very
clear that his goal wasn't to excuse Manson in any way.
You know, he straight up calls him evil in the book.
But his goal was just to really find out what
actually happened. And I thought it was so interesting that
Stephen Kay, who was Boogliosi's co prosecutor, you know, he
(01:39):
worked on this case with him, actually felt that there
were notes in Boogliosi's handwriting that could overturn the Manson
family's verdicts. So that's a pretty powerful statement coming from
someone who was literally right there.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
In the courtroom.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah, it really highlights that there are some potential cracks
in the official story. And that's what you were kind
of hoping to find out more about. Right when you
suggested we look at this book. I was so intrigued
by that.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
And you know another thing that O'Neill talks about is
his own experience reading Helter Skelter before starting his investigation,
and even though this is like super infamous case, he
found it completely absorbing. You know, all these like disturbing
details he'd never heard before, and it kind of transformed
the story from something that was just familiar to something
that was super intriguing. And it really makes it clear
(02:22):
why he felt so compelled to spend so much time
and energy digging deeper so you can see, like the
origin story of the book Chaos starts with Helter Skelter. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5 (02:30):
It all right, So let's get into some specifics of
the book.
Speaker 6 (02:33):
Let's start with the lead up to the tape murders
at one zero fifty Clow Drive. The book just briefly
touches on Patricia Creenwinkle's early life, you know, talking about
like a hormone issue that led to overeating and feelings
of being unwanted, and that seems to have contributed to
drug use or her disappearance in nineteen sixty seven. It
paints this picture of someone who was vulnerable before she
(02:55):
encountered Manson.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah. I mean that's a crucial piece of context, right.
You know, a lot of the members of the family
came from really difficult and often traumatic backgrounds, and you
start to think about how someone like Manson could pray
on that vulnerability. The book then goes on to describe
the scene at Ciela Drive, noting that Roman Polanski was
actually absent that night because he was in London, and
they emphasize how secluded the house was almost invisible from
(03:18):
the street, which adds another layer of unease, I think
to the whole story. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (03:23):
Absolutely, And then of course the book goes on to
recount the horrific details of Sharon Tate's murder by Susan
Atkins and Tex Watson. It's just awful to read about
Tate's desperate pleas for her life and for her unborn child.
Atkins's response is so cold, and the brutality of the
multiple stab wounds is just devastating. It's just this awful
reminder of the human cost of this whole thing.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
It is, and the book then pivots to look at
the broader societal impact of the crimes. And it's really
striking to me how these murders just shattered the image
of the hippie movement. You know, suddenly this counterculture, which
had been viewed by some as you know, relatively harmless
expression of youthful idealism, was now associating with unimaginable violence
in the public mind. And that really dramatically shifted the
(04:04):
narrative about the hippies, didn't it. Yeah, in the fueled
existing anxieties about you know, youth culture and drug use
in this sense that traditional order was being undermined. I mean,
there's an estimate in the book that like thirty three
people might have been killed simply because Manson ordered it,
which gives you a sense of the scale of the
violence potentially linked back to him absolutely. So to understand
(04:25):
how Manson could have exerted so much control, the book
looks back at his extensive history within the federal reformatory system,
you know, his long record of antisocial behavior and the
psychic trauma that he endured, you know, instances of rape
and escapes, going all the way back to his teenage years.
It's just this picture of a deeply disturbed individual long
before nineteen sixty nine. It makes you wonder how someone
(04:47):
with that history could have been able to operate so freely.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Absolutely, And O'Neil talks about watching early television footage of
Manson and he was surprised because he doesn't see this
like charismatic figure that we often hear about. He sees
an unsocial air and a kind of jail house aggression
which maybe got misinterpreted his authenticity. The book also mentions
Manson's behavior during the pre trial hearings, you know, demanding
(05:10):
to represent himself and his followers mimicking his defiance, all
really showing like the level of control he maintained even
within the legal system. And then we get to this
infamous helter Skelter motive, the whole idea of racial tension
and apocalyptic prophecies and messages in rock music, and the
book really stresses that this was a totally novel theory
that was introduced in the courtroom, you know, Paul Watkins's
(05:32):
testimony about an underground city awaiting the family after a
race war, almost sounds unbelievable, that I know, and.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
It was drawn from the Book of Revelation, you know,
trying to find these hidden messages. And then you had
the convicted women's testimony, you know, where they completely absolved
Manson and they expressed no remorse. Their explanation that, you know,
killing was actually an act of love that freed the
victim from their physical being. It's so chilling, you know,
Susan Atkins's clinical recollection of stabbing Sharon Tate is just
(05:58):
harrowing to read. It really showed how affected his manipulation
was and how deeply he warped their sense of reality
and morality.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
You know, the book actually delves into accounts from former
family members about Manson's brainwashing techniques. It started with overwhelming
displays of affection, sex, and drugs. You know, the book
describes these near weekly orgies at the Spawn ranch that
Manson orchestrated. It's unsettling. Googliosi even describes Manson arranging bodies
(06:28):
like a sculptor. It's really disturbing. And then, you know,
during the death penalty phase, the defense actually argued that
Manson had brainwashed his followers. You know, they brought in
psychiatric experts who discussed how LSD could reshape someone's personality
and how the guide during an acid trip could implant
violent ideas. It just raises all these questions about free
will and manipulation absolutely, and the book also looks at
(06:50):
some of the contradictions surrounding the atmosphere at Cielo Drive
before the murders. You know, the media was so quick
to blame Hollywood's decadence, that kind of live freaky, freaky attitude.
They argue that it created this environment where violence was inevitable.
But then O'Neill really starts to pick apart the helter
Skelter motive. He questioned the idea that Manson targeted the
Celo house to scare Terry Melcher.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
The record producer who turned him down, because the.
Speaker 8 (07:14):
Family never actually communicated this motive to Melcher.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
It just seems like this fundamental flaw in the narrative,
doesn't it.
Speaker 8 (07:20):
How do you instill fear in someone if they don't
know it's directed at them exactly?
Speaker 3 (07:24):
And this leads O'Neil to really start exploring other possibilities.
He talks about how hard it was for him to
actually get Hollywood figures to talk about the aftermass of
the murders, and people like Bruce Dern and Kirk Douglas
declined to be interviewed. It seems like there's a lingering
discomfort around the whole topic here, even decades later. Right,
and the book touches on some of those more sensational
rumors surrounding Roan Polanski and Sharon Tate's relationship. Allegations of
(07:48):
film sexual encounters and orgies. Brings in perspective from people
like Dominic Dunn and James Toback, who just as this
whole other layer of intrigue to the story, and friends
of Sharon hit even mentioned that she was uncomfortable with
some of Plancy's friends, particularly Fraikowski and Folger, the just
in tension within that group. It paints a more complex
picture of the social circle.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, and then it goes deeper into the relationship between
Tate and Polanski, even Tate's own thoughts about leaving him.
You know, someone even says that Tate wound up getting
murdered because he's fooling around in London. It's harsh, but
it hints at other issues, potentially issues that go beyond Manson.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah, it kind of shifts the focus a little bit
away from Manson being the sole driving force, you know,
it introduces the idea that there might have been more
media and personal conflicts involved.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Absolutely. And then the book starts looking at Fraikowski's connections
to a much more dangerous crowd, you know, bringing in
figures like Pickett Dawson who was involved in drug smuggling
and it even threatened Fraikowski.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
And then we get to Billy Doyle and Charles Taco
with their alleged ties to drug dealing and intelligence agencies.
There's even a story about Frakowski and Seabring retaliating against
Doyle and a party. It's really unsettling. Yeah, Tacho is
like this super enigmatic figure. Rumors of CIA connections, knife throwing,
drug smuggling, it just goes on and on. It's really
hard to confirm any of it. But then you have
Karn Calvit's alarming stories involving Tacho.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
It adds to this feeling that there are these hidden
dangerous forces at play.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yeah, and Billy Doyle's shifting accounts and his belief that
Polanski and Prakowski were Polish spies. It's really strange and
his alibi for the Knight of the Murders that he
and Taco were filming a pot movie in Jamaica, which
he later admitted was a cover for intelligence work. It
just raises so much suspicion. It really points to a
deeper level of intrigue than we would have thought.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Yeah, and Doyle just became convinced that there was more
to the murders than the official story. He even thought
that O'Neil was Polanski's private investigator. It really shows you
the paranoia and distrust that was going on. You know,
you mentioned O'Neil's focus on Doyle and Taco as potential
sources of motive instead of the helter skelter theory, and
it really starts to become this key part of his
challenge to the established narrative.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Yeah, and we also can't forget about the presence of
mob figures and criminals around Jay Sebrings shop. There's this
character called bar who had alleged mob ties and security
intelligence clearance, and there are these unsettling allegations that Baron
and his associates did terrible things to black people.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
And Charlie being the worst of them. So it really
broadens the scope of potential actors and motives.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 9 (10:15):
And then the book kind of circles back to Terry
Melcher as like the most direct link between Manson and Hollywood,
you know, focusing on his initial promise of a record
deal and is subsequent backing out. And so then we
revisit that official explanation of Manson targeting Melcher's former house
to instill fear, which you know we've already discussed. O'Neil
just doesn't find that explanation very convincing.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, that's a big part of his argument, right, and
Melcher's testimony that he only met Manson three times before
the murders. It was really interesting. O'Neill introduced this idea
of the golden penetrators Wilson, Jacobson, and Melcher, and he
questions why they remain so silent after the murders, even
though they probably suspected Manson. It suggests that they didn't
want to cooperate with the investigation, or maybe they were
afraid of what they might reveal, you know. And then
(10:59):
there's ye to Belly, who owned the Silo Drive house.
The book mentions that he was immediately suspicious of Manson
after the murders, and his lawyer advised him to stay quiet.
He ends up staying with melcher In Candice Bergen after
the murders, and Jacobson makes this cryptic remark about the
musician that Manson was supposed to have killed, just hints
this deeper, unspoken understanding within this Hollywood circle that was
(11:23):
never really explored. It just seems like there's more to
it than meets the eye.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Yeah, and then there's Melterer's strong attachment to the Soilo
drivehouse and his and Bergen's sudden departure blaming their housekeeper.
It's just suspicious. They clearly wanted to distance themselves from
the location and any potential connections to the murders. And
this defense attorney Bill Nelson managed to get police files
from a polygraph examiner in the Tate investigation named Earl Deemer,
(11:47):
and later from a retired homicide detective Mike McGann, and
those files gave O'Neill this crucial source of information outside
the official channels that really helped him build his argument. Yeah,
and then you get this bombshell from Stephen that Manson
and Watson actually attended a party at the Colo House
when Melcher and Bergen lived there. That gives you another
more direct reason for why Manson might have targeted that
(12:09):
specific location.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
And it contradicts Melcher's sworn testimony that he never saw
Watson in his house. It's a significant inconsistency that O'Neill
brings the light right. It totally undermines Melcher's credibility and
that whole idea that the motive was just to instill
fear and Melcher because of the record deal. And then
O'Neil talks about this unsettling encounter with Manson's former attorney,
(12:31):
Irving Kanarekt, who made some very serious accusations against Buliosi,
like claiming he was an indicted perjurer and making some
claims about his personal conduct which were unsubstantiated, and you know,
you kind of have to take canonic statements with a
grand AsSalt. But O'Neill later confirms that Bugliosi was indicted
for perjury because of the leak of Manson's alleged celebrity
hit list during the trial, which is really something, I mean,
(12:53):
it paints a picture of a much less straightforward legal process.
And then we have Melcher's conflicting testimony about when he
last saw Manson. Evidence suggests that he saw him after
May nineteen sixty nine, despite what he said under oath.
And we also never even questioned Danny DeCarlo about Melcher,
even though the Carlo was present as Bond Ranch.
Speaker 10 (13:09):
It seems like a pretty big oversight in the investigation.
And Gary Stromberg, who worked with Terry Melcher, he confirms
that everyone in their circle suspected Manson immediately after the murders,
because Meltcher fired him and stopped his recordings, and because
they knew that the family had already murdered Shorty Shay.
The Beach Boys were even ostracized because of their association
with Manson. So it really underscores that immediate suspicion within
the Hollywood community, right, and the LASO archives had even
(13:33):
more evidence, you know. Paul Watkins also reports seeing Melcher
at the Spawn Ranch around the same time as Danny
Decrlo in early September nineteen sixty nine, you know, after
the murders. So again, this presence of Melcher at the
ranch after the murders directly contradicts his testimony and it
raises these questions about what he knew and when he
knew it yet really complicates the official narrative definitely. And
then O'Neil describes his eventual meeting with Terry Melcher in
(13:55):
two thousand, you know, noting his appearance and demeanor, and
Melcher offers O'Neil the chance to co author his memoirs,
which really feels like a transparent attempt to control the narrative, doesn't.
Speaker 11 (14:07):
It It does.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
And then Greg Jacobson's inconsistent statements, especially about whether man'son
new Melcher had moved and the green Spy glass incident.
It just highlights the unreliability of some of these key witnesses, right.
And then the thirtieth anniversary of the murders passes and
O'Neill's story still hasn't been published, even though the editor
at Premiere was initially enthusiastic, And that kind of suggests
how difficult it is to challenge such a deeply entrenched narrative.
(14:31):
So this really leads O'Neil to focus more intently on
potential discrepancies and cover ups within LESO, the Los Angeles
County Sheriff's office, right, and a defense attorney named Paul Fitzgerald,
becomes a key contact, giving O'Neill the number for Charlie Gunther,
who Fitzgerald describes as an honest cop, and Gunther and
his partner Whitely become these important sources for O'Neil, revealing
(14:52):
what they perceived as a series of misteps and potential
cover ups within LSO Right and the book also talks
about this tape recording of Bobby Boselet's Foo call from
jail where he implicates others in the Himman murder, but
Laso seems to have ignored this call.
Speaker 12 (15:05):
Another prosecutor, Aaron Stove, It's even believe that the Tate
Lobyanca murders were copycat crimes, but he felt that Bugilosi's
narrative has controlled everything. So again it's pointing to these
alternative interpretations that were never really considered. Yeah, and then
you have Preston Gilliery, who was an La SU deputy
involved in the Spawn Ranch raid. His conduct was really questionable,
(15:26):
and Laso tried to discredit him after he spoke out,
and Guillory believed that Laso knew early on that the
family committed the murders and that the raid gave them
enough evidence to violate Manson's parole, but they didn't do
anything about it. You know, O'Neil got access to LASO
reports on activities at the Staun Ranch, and those reports
reveal a significant amount of surveillance and intelligence gathering that
(15:47):
was going on, and it really raises the question of
why wasn't Manson apprehended sooner.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
You know, they even got a warrant for his arrest
on suspicion of stolen vehicles and other charges just before
the tate Leveanca murders. It just seems like they had
enough to arrest him, but they didn't.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
I know. And the deputies who arrested Manson after the
Spawn Ranch raid were surprised that he wasn't charged. They
felt they had ample grounds for parole revocation based on
all these charges against him from the first half of
nineteen sixty nine. It seems like there's a deliberate decision
not to keep him incarcerated. And then there's Gleeson who
organized that Spawn Ranch raid. He failed to connect Kitty Lutzinger,
(16:21):
who was a suspect in the Hindman murder and Bosolet's
girlfriend to the people who were arrested at the ranch.
Even though she was right there in custody. Seems like a.
Speaker 11 (16:29):
Big oversight, Yeah, it does. And then later la So
was reluctant to share information with O'Neil, saying there's stuff
you can never be told. Just reinforces that sense that
they're hiding something.
Speaker 5 (16:40):
It really does.
Speaker 8 (16:41):
And then there were the conflicting accounts of Shiro Katami.
He was a witness at the Salo Drive guesthouse, and
of these allegations that his testimony was coerced by Reeve Whitson,
who worked with the DA's office. You know, Bugliosi denied
even knowing Whitson, but other sources contradicted that. So it
really raised the serious questions about the integrity of the
prosecution's case.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
It does, and Reevewitz has becomes this really central figure
to O'Neill's investigation, you know, with these alleged CIA ties
and his cryptic behavior, his connections to Sebring and Polanski
and even the Beach Boys through whom he supposedly met
Manson before the murders, It just paints this picture of
a much larger and more complex web of connections than
(17:21):
we initially imagine. You know, Witson's ex wife even talks
about his CIA work and his habit of trying to
avoid detection. It's like he was living this double life.
The book even suggests that Witson might have just been
a con artist, but if he was a real intelligence operative,
it raises all these disturbing questions about his potential knowledge
of the murders.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
And the book kind of expands this out even further
to talk about CIA programs like co Intel pro and Chaos,
you know, highlighting the FBI's efforts to disrupt left wing
groups and the CIA's domestic intelligence gathering during that era.
And this provides this broader context of government surveillance and
manipulation could connect to the Manson story. You know, a
lot of people kind of downplayed Manson's race war motive,
(18:05):
and it's interesting how it aligned with the goals.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Of certain federal agencies at that time.
Speaker 10 (18:09):
You know, that's a really good point.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
And then we can't forget about the withholding of evidence
related to the Manson family from Prosecutor Bill Ross by
his superiors and the detectives Gunther and Whiteley in the
Hindman murder case. Ross immediately saw the connection between the
Hindman murder and the Tate LaBianca killings, but he was
deliberately kept in the dark. It's really strange, it is.
(18:31):
And then the dismissal of Danny de Carlo as an
unreliable witness by Ross during the Hindman trial, you know,
that highlights these internal conflicts and these differing opinions within
the Die's office regarding key witnesses. So it really complicates
this idea of a unified and straightforward prosecution.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (18:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 13 (18:47):
And then you have the unusual circumstances surrounding Susan Atkins's
legal representation, you know, the dismissal of her initial attorney,
Ronald Hughes, and then the assignment.
Speaker 8 (18:56):
Of Richard Cabierro.
Speaker 13 (18:57):
It raises questions about potential manipulation of the Eagle process,
you know. And then there's this unusual arrangement that allowed
Atkins to be interviewed by her lawyers in Beverly Hills
before the grand jury and her story about Sharon Tate's
murder changes. It just suggests that her testimony might have
been orchestrated.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
And Akins's story was then published by Lawrence Shiller, potentially
with help from the Day's office. Just before a gag
order was issued, So it's like this coordinated effort to
control the public narrative. It does feel that way, and
O'Neil even mentions this secretive special investigation section within the
LAPD known as the Death Squad, and allegations of their
(19:33):
controversial policies. It just adds this other layer of potential
misconduct and unaccountability, right, and then there's this really explosive
claim from a former LAPD detective named Bowser that the
Take crime scene was presented incorrectly or possibly even staged,
so that directly challenges the entire foundation of the official narrative.
It's pretty shocking. And then you know there's this continued
(19:54):
suppression of files by various agencies related to the case.
You know, it underscores this ongoing lack of transparency. It
just makes you think that there's still information out there
that might contradict the accepted story. And then Premier fires
their editor, Jim Meeks, who support O'Neil's investigations, So you
see those powerful forces at play trying to suppress alternative accounts.
And then the book looks at the unusual clemency that
(20:16):
was shown to Susan Atkins and Mary Brunner in earlier
cases despite their criminal behavior, you know that clemency often
came about because of Roger Smith, Manson's parole officer, who
failed to disclose his close relationship with Manson. It just
changes how you view those early stages of Manson's influence,
and Smith's background in criminology research is really interesting. You know,
(20:37):
specifically research on amphetamines and violence in Hate Ashbury Hippies
I was actually funded by the National Institute of Mental Health,
which had ties to the CIA, and Manson's time in
Hate Ashbury becomes this really critical period in his development
as a cult leader, and Roger Smith's lack of proper
parole supervision really seems to have played a role on that.
(20:57):
So you have the San Francisco project that Smith's super
Manson on and the amfetamine research project that Smith led,
and they ran him concurrently during the time when Manson
wasn't really getting much parole oversight. It raises all these
questions about Smith's competence, whether he was enabling Manson's behavior absolutely,
And then you have David Smith's research on the speed
scene and it's parallels to animal behavior, and he actually
(21:20):
co authored a study of the family with a former
Manson follower, so it offers this really disturbing academic perspective
on the dynamics of the group, but his views were
often in conflict with Roger Smith's. It's so interesting how
Roger Smith downplayed any parallels between his research in Manson's behavior,
but David Smith saw clear connections to his work on
overcrowded environments and social breakdown.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Yeah, and the fact that Roger Smith never really intervened
in Manson's behavior or reported his drug use or manipulation
of others. That's a huge dereliction of duty for a
parole officer.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
It is. And then David Smith and Al Rose published
this study of the Manson family shortly after the murders,
and Smith really downplays Rose's direct involvement as a follower,
so it highlights the potential biases that were going on
and those early attempts to really understand the family. And
then you know, Roger Smith finally agrees to speak with
O'Neil after years of silence. He doesn't seem to feel
any guilt about it at all. It's kind of chilling,
(22:14):
it is.
Speaker 14 (22:15):
And then the book explores the involvement of Lewis J. West,
a psychiatrist with alleged CIA ties and documented involvement in
M culture experiments. He was involved in the Hayte Ashbury
scene during the same time Manson was there. The description
of Wes's lab disguised as a hippie crash pad is
really unsettling. It is and Wes had all these research interests,
including the Manson murders, and he had documented connections to
(22:37):
the CIA and M culture, to people like Sidney Gottlieb.
It raises these questions about the links between mind control
experiments and the counterculture. Absolutely, and West did these experiments
with LSD and truth serums. He even evaluated Jack Ruby,
so it really underscores his involvement in this controversial research,
and you wonder about his potential influence on people like
Manson and on the counterculture scene in general. And O'Neil
(23:01):
tries to share his findings with Senator Arle inspector who
investigated him culture, and O'Neill starts to get really paranoid
about his access to West's files. It's like he stumbled
onto something really sensitive and potentially dangerous. And then O'Neil
kind of reflects on the complexity of everything he's found.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
He acknowledges that there's not really a single smoking gun,
but there's this overwhelming amount of evidence that contradicts the
official narrative. And it's hard to believe that all of
these different law enforcement agencies would have cooperated so perfectly
to solve this case as the official story suggests. I mean,
it does seem highly unlike that. And the book talks
about Vincent Bugliosi's history of using aggressive tactics. You know,
(23:38):
he sued the Weissles for slantered defamation, which he eventually settled,
but it shows how litigious he was and how determined
he was to control the narrative. And Bugliosi initially refused
to be interviewed by O'Neill again. He cited unnamed sources
and made accusations against O'Neill. He just didn't want to
engage with these alternative perspectives.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Yeah, and when O'Neill finally does get to interview Boo Gliosi,
it's a contentious interview. Buliosi even threatens to sue him,
and he deflects key questions, particularly about Terry Melcher's post
murder visits to the Spawn ranch. It's like he knew
how significant that information was, but he tried to dismiss it.
There was this back and forth between Bougliosi and O'Neill's
publisher Penguin.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
And O'Neil actually prepared to defend himself against a lawsuit.
So it just shows how high the stakes were. Right
and then O'Neil starts looking into the deaths of Joel
Bugh in London and John phelp Tennarelli in Bishop both
of which were initially ruled suicides. But there are all
these suspicious circumstances and overlooked evidence that suggests potential connections
to the family. It makes you wonder about the full
scope of the family's activities and whether all of the
(24:39):
relevant information came to light in the original investigations. And
in the end, O'Neill doesn't claim to have found the
absolute truth, but he does aim to prove that the
official story is flawed. You know, he emphasizes that lack
of transparency from official agencies, and you see that continued
secrecy in the ongoing legal battles over tex Watson's recorded interviews,
which are still being kept from the public. And even
(25:01):
from the victim's families. O'Neil even has this brief phone
conversation with Manson in two thousand. It highlights that this
case remains a mystery even all these years later. And
you can really see the depth of O'Neill's investigation just
in the extensive list of sources at the end of
the book. Yeah. So, as you can see from this
deep dive into chaos, there are so many layers in
unanswered questions surrounding the man's in family story. It really
(25:24):
makes you think about the complexity of historical narratives and
the potential for hidden truths. O'Neil's research really challenges that
long accepted version of events. Yeah, and I think for
you the listener, it highlights the importance of looking beyond
the surface and considering alternative perspectives, even when a case
seems as well documented as this one. It really makes
(25:44):
you think about how we understand events and how those
events get shaped into history. Definitely, So that's your book
cast for today Bestsellers in minutes. We hope you enjoyed
this deep dive into chaos and that it sparked your
curiosity to explore these findings and to think about all
the questions that are raised about this really fascinating case.
Until next time, keep turning those pages
Popular Podcasts
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!
Fudd Around And Find Out
UConn basketball star Azzi Fudd brings her championship swag to iHeart Women’s Sports with Fudd Around and Find Out, a weekly podcast that takes fans along for the ride as Azzi spends her final year of college trying to reclaim the National Championship and prepare to be a first round WNBA draft pick. Ever wonder what it’s like to be a world-class athlete in the public spotlight while still managing schoolwork, friendships and family time? It’s time to Fudd Around and Find Out!