👉 Welcome to BOOKKAST — Bestsellers in Minutes! Today, we're diving into one of the most thought-provoking books of our time: "Poverty, by America" by Matthew Desmond. In this episode, we unpack the key insights from Desmond’s groundbreaking work and explore the uncomfortable truth about why poverty persists in the wealthiest country in the world.
✨ What you'll learn in this episode: Why the U.S. has more poverty than any other advanced democracy 🌎
How the actions of the wealthy and middle class sustain poverty 💰
The devastating human stories behind statistics and policy decisions 🏚️
The connection between exploitation, housing instability, low wages, and systemic inequality How consumer choices, tax breaks, and policy decisions subsidize affluence while neglecting the poor 📉
Solutions proposed by Desmond to fight poverty, including fair wages, labor protection, affordable housing, and ending predatory lending 🛠️
📚 Matthew Desmond's research challenges the way we think about poverty — not just as a problem of the poor, but as a result of deliberate societal choices. This episode will change how you see poverty in America forever!
🔥 If you're looking for a summary of Poverty by America, key takeaways from Matthew Desmond’s book, and an honest conversation about poverty, inequality, and systemic exploitation in the United States, you're in the right place!
👉 Make sure to LIKE, COMMENT, and SUBSCRIBE for more bestselling book summaries, key insights, and quick knowledge every week!
✨ What you'll learn in this episode: Why the U.S. has more poverty than any other advanced democracy 🌎
How the actions of the wealthy and middle class sustain poverty 💰
The devastating human stories behind statistics and policy decisions 🏚️
The connection between exploitation, housing instability, low wages, and systemic inequality How consumer choices, tax breaks, and policy decisions subsidize affluence while neglecting the poor 📉
Solutions proposed by Desmond to fight poverty, including fair wages, labor protection, affordable housing, and ending predatory lending 🛠️
📚 Matthew Desmond's research challenges the way we think about poverty — not just as a problem of the poor, but as a result of deliberate societal choices. This episode will change how you see poverty in America forever!
🔥 If you're looking for a summary of Poverty by America, key takeaways from Matthew Desmond’s book, and an honest conversation about poverty, inequality, and systemic exploitation in the United States, you're in the right place!
👉 Make sure to LIKE, COMMENT, and SUBSCRIBE for more bestselling book summaries, key insights, and quick knowledge every week!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to Bookcast Bestsellers in Minutes. I'm Paul, I'm Sarah,
and we are so excited to be diving into another
bestseller with you today.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
That's right. We take those impactful best selling books, you know,
the ones everyone's talking about.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Oh yeah, we know them, and we extract those key
insights for you, our listener, so you can be.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
In the know in just about the time it takes
to finish your morning coffee or you know, maybe like
a really good cup of tea.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
That's us Bestsellers in Minutes.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Today, Sarah and I are going to be taking a
deep dive into a book that has been making waves,
big waves. It's Matthew Desmond's Poverty by America.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
This one is a powerful read, Paul. It really kind
of shakes things up, I think and how we think
about poverty.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
It does. And one of the things that makes it
so powerful is that Matthew Desmond a sociologist. He didn't
just study poverty from like an academic.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Distance, No he didn't. He really immersed himself in it.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yeah. He lived in low income communities for years alongside
people facing eviction, experiencing firsthand the housing christ and he
did this in Milwaukee.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
And that's what makes this book so compelling. Right, You're
not just getting statistics and theories.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, you're getting real stories.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
You're getting real stories, You're getting lived experiences. He actually
lived in a mobile home park and then a rooming
house to understand these dynamics firsthand.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah, and he built relationships with families. He attended their funerals.
It was really in it.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
He was in it, and that personal connection really shines
through in his analysis.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
It does. So our goal today is to unpack Desmond's
main argument, get to the core of it. Why does
poverty persist so stubbornly in a nation as wealthy as
the United States?
Speaker 1 (01:36):
A question for the ages.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Right, it really is. And to set the stage, Desmond
hits us with a pretty jaw dropping statistic right out
the gate.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Oh yeah, he loves to use these statistics to really
kind of highlight the stark reality of the situation.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
He does, and he talks about the sheer scale of
American wealth and he points out that the US GDP
is larger than the combined economies of Japan, Germany, UK, France, Italy, Canada,
and Russia.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Wow, that's quite the list. It is it's huge, so,
like bigger than all of them combined.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, bigger than all of them combined. And he puts
it in even more concrete terms. He mentions that California's
economy by itself is larger than Canada's, and New York's
surpasses South Koreas.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So it really kind of begs the question, if we're
this wealthy as a nation, why is there so much poverty?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
It does, and that's the central question that Desmond tackles
head on in this book.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
And I think one of the key things he does
is shift the focus of the conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, how so well.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
He points out that for like over a century, you know,
books studies on poverty, they primarily focus on the poor themselves,
like who they are, why they're poor, you know, their circumstances.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Right, sort of deficits in their lives exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
And he cites all these like landmark works, you know,
Jacob Rieze is how the Other Half lives, Jane Adams
work with immigrants in Chicago, the Depression era of photography,
you know, yeah, those iconic SoSE iconic images by James
ag and Walker Evans. Of course, Michael Harrington's the other America.
These are all incredibly important works, but they share that
common focus right.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
On the poor themselves and the poor themselves. So how
is Desmond doing it differently?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Well, I think what's so interesting about Desmond's approach is
that he kind of flips the script.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
He flips the script.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Instead of just documenting the struggles of the poor, he
asks us to examine how the actions the systems of
the non poor contribute to and perpetuate poverty.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So it's not just about the poor, it's about the
broader system that they're operating.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
In precisely, and I think the most powerful ways he
illustrates this is through the story of Crystal.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Crystal, Yes, tell us a little bit about her story.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Crystal's story is really heartbreaking, and Desmond uses it to
show the very real consequences of these systemic issues. So Crystal,
after an assault charge, faced a two year ban from
low income housing, and she was at the bottom of
a six year long waiting list for housing assistance.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Six years.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
That's unbelievable, unbelievable, And in the mean time, she was
forced into the private rental market, where she ended up
paying seventy three percent of her income just.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
For rent that is just not sustainable.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Seventy three percent, it's not sustainable. And this is where
Desmond really drives home this point about instability, instability as
a defining future of poverty.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
So it's not just about income, it's about the precariousness
of your situation exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
So because Crystal was struggling to pay that rent, she
ended up getting evicted, and then that eviction went on
her record, which made it even harder to secure stable housing.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
So it's like one thing leads to another and you
just get caught in this downward.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Spiral, exactly, and it's really tough to break free from
that cycle.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, and her story it just gets worse.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
From there, it does. She ends up staying with a
friend for a while, but then that falls apart, and
she's navigating the shelter system. She's relying on the kindness
of strangers. She's sleeping on buses and hospital waiting rooms.
I mean, it's a really tough.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Situation, it is, But Desmond emphasizes that even amidst all this,
Crystal is incredibly resilient.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
She is she even finds moments to sing gospel music
in public, and it's those moments that really kind of
highlight her humanity and her spirit.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
That's so powerful, and it really speaks to the broader
point that poverty is about so much more than just
a lack of money.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Absolutely, it's about lack of stability, a lack of security,
lack of opportunity. And I think that's something that Desmond
really captures beautifully in Crystal Story.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
He does, and Desmond also highlights the pervasive violence that
impacts the lives of many living in poverty.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yes, this is a really important point. He cites some
pretty disturbing statistics about gun violence in Chicago, for instance.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, And he talks about the high percentage of formally
incarcerated individuals and parents investigated by child protective services who
themselves had experienced or witnessed violence as children.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
It's a cycle of trauma that really needs to be addressed,
and Desmond doesn't shy away from that.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
He doesn't, and he uses the stories of his friends
Scott and Kimball or Wu as he calls them to
really illustrate the devastating impact of this trauma.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, Scott turned to drugs to cope with childhood abuse
and tragedy.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
He died of a relapse and wou neglected a minor
injury and ultimately had to have his leg amputated because
he didn't have the resources to seek timely medical care.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
It's these personal stories that make the human cost of
poverty so visceral and so real.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Absolutely, and Desmond argues that eviction is not just some
like isolated, unfortunate event. It's actually incredibly common in the
lives of low income renters.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Way more common than people realize.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
I think. Yeah. He points out that there are over
three point six million eviction filings every year in the US.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
That's a huge number.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
It's actually comparable to the number of foreclosures during the
peak of the twenty ten financial crisis.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
So we're talking about a massive scale of displacement.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
We are, And he really brings to life what that
displacement looks like. You know, those eviction movers coming in
taking everything, even like basic necessities.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
People are left with nothing. That's hard to even imagine
starting over from that point it is.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
And then there's the instability of the job market for
low wage workers. Desmond talks about this rise of bad jobs.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Bad jobs more about that with these are jobs.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
That are low paying, few or no benefits, high turnover rates,
and we see these insectors like retail, hospitality, food service,
you know.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, jobs that are essential but often don't provide a
living wage exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And Desmond quotes people who talk about feeling expendable, like
they could be replaced at any moment, and young people
facing this future filled with deep economic uncertainty.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
It's a precarious existence, and it leads to what Desmond
calls poverty above the poverty line.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Poverty above the poverty line. So what does that mean, Well.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
It means that you might technically have an income that's
above the official poverty threshold, but you're still experiencing significant
economic insecurity.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
So you're not officially poor, but you're still really struggling exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
You're living paycheck to paycheck. You're one unexpected expense away
from disaster.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
You know, you're constantly worried about making ends meet, exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
And this is a reality for so many Americans, even
those who aren't officially classified as poor.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
It's a huge issue. And then Desmond throws out another
one of those really startling statistics, this one from Nobel
laureate Angus Deeton.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Oh yeah, Deeton's work on poverty is incredibly important.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
It is, and he found that millions of Americans are
living on four dollars a day or less.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Four dollars a day. Wow.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, it's a level of destitution that's comparable to the
poorest populations in countries like India and Bangladesh.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
And this is in the United States, the richest country
in the world.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
It's a really stark reality check.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
It is, and it really challenges our assumptions about what
poverty looks like in America.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Now here's where Desmond's analysis gets really interesting. He points
out that despite a significant increase in federal spending on
means tested programs you know those programs where eligibility depends
on your income.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
And assets, right like snap benefits TNF.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Exactly between nineteen eighty and twenty eighteen, poverty is persisted.
So we're spending more, but it doesn't seem to be
having the intended impact.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
This is where he introduces that idea of the leaky
bucket welfare state bucket.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
So what does he mean by that, Well, he's.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Saying that while the intention behind these programs might be good,
you know, taxpayer dollars being allocated to help those in need,
the reality is that not all of that money actually
reaches the intended recipients, so.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
There are inefficiencies in the system, there are barriers that
prevent the money from having its.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Full impact, exactly. And he talks about how some social
policies can actually inadvertently create further hardship for families. Oh likewise, well,
for example, he mentions how SSI checks can be reduced
if recipients live with relatives, so if.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
You're trying to pool resources with family members, you might
actually end up losing benefits exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
And the Earned income Tax Credit can sometimes provide a
larger benefit if unmarried parents apply separately.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
So the system kind of incentivizes certain behaviors that might
not be in the best interest.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Of families exactly. And then he talks about mass incarceration,
which he calls a profoundly anti family, state sponsored initiative,
and it has.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
A disproportionate impact on black and Hispanic.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Family absolutely tearing apart families and communities and really hindering
economic mobility.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Now here's one of Desmond's most challenging arguments, and it's
that many people and institutions directly benefit from the existence
of poverty.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
It's an uncomfortable truth. But I think he's right.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, he talks about how this can make conversations about
poverty really difficult because it forces us to confront some
potentially inconvenient truths about our economic system. Right.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
It challenges the narrative that we like to tell ourselves
about meritocracy and equal opportunity exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
And he really gets into the concept of exploitation as
a core driver of poverty.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
So he's talking about things like low wages, high rents,
predatory lending practices.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Right, And he argues that these practices disproportionately affect the poor,
but those who are not poor often benefit even indirectly
from these systems.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Like think about how we as consumers benefit from low prices,
which are often a result of suppressed wages for workers.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Right. It's a complex system, a lot of interconnected parts.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
And he connects this to the long standing debate about
the minimum wage.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
The minimum wage, Yeah, there's always a lot of back
and forth about that, there.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Is, but Desmond highlights the current research actually suggests that
modest increases in the minimum wage don't really have a
significant negative impact on employment.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
So the argument that raising the minimum wage will lead
to job losses is not really supported by the.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Evidence, right, And he uses the example of McDonald's you know,
comparing wages and worker conditions in the US versus countries
like Denmark where they have a much higher minimum wage.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Interesting comparison, it is.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
And then he looks back at the mid twentieth century,
a period of greater economic equality in the US. Greater equality,
greater equality, and he attributes part of that to the
power of labor unions like the United Automobile Workers the
AFLCIO SO.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Union has played a significant role in creating a more
equitable society.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
They did, and he argues that the decline in union power,
while often framed as you know, increasing efficiency, has actually
contributed to the rise in inequality that we see today.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
So the promised benefits of a less unionized workforce haven't
really materialized from many people.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
And then he talks about the concept of the fissured workplace.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Fissured workplace, So what's that all about.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
It's basically the shift towards companies relying more and more
on independent contractors and temporary workers rather than traditional employees.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
So instead of having people on their payroll, they're using
these alternative work.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Arrangements exactly, and this often leads to lower wages, fewer benefits,
less job security.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
And it disproportionately impacts those who are already most vulnerable
to poverty.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
And then he details some of the tactics that employers
use to limit worker power, like what things like discouraging
discussions about wages, implementing non compete agreements and no poaching
agreements which restrict worker's ability to move to better opportunities.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
So they're kind of trapped in these low wage jobs.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
And then we see how government programs like Medicaid and
food stamps can actually end up subsidizing these low wage employers.
How so well, because if workers aren't being paid a
living wage, they have to rely on these public benefits
to survive.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
The taxpayers are essentially helping to support companies that aren't
paying their workers enough exactly.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
And Desmond points out that even the earned income tax credit,
while it does provide some relief to low income workers,
it can also be seen as a way for corporations
to avoid paying a living wage.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Like, we're all complicit in this system in some.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Way, and Desmond challenges us to think about that complicity,
especially as consumers. You know, we might care about where
our food comes from or what materials are in our clothes,
but do we think about the labor practices of the
companies we support?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Right? Are we paying attention to the working conditions the
wages of the people who are making those products?
Speaker 1 (13:42):
And he mentions the widening black white pay gap as
a stark example of the consequences of these systemic issues.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, and he even talks about his own family's decision
to stop shopping at a particular retailer for ethical.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Reasons, but he acknowledges that they haven't fully scrutinized all
of their choices as consumers, an.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Ongoing process, right, becoming more aware of the impact of
our spending decisions.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Absolutely. And then shifting gears a bit to housing, Desmond
talks about the issue of rising rents even in cities
with high vacancy rates.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah, that seems counterintuitive.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
It does, but he explains that it's not just about
operating costs for landlords. It's also about the limited housing
options available to poor families.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
So landlords can charge higher rents because people don't really
have any other choice.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Exactly, And he does offer a more nuanced view of
landlords acknowledging that some are exploitative, you know, the stereotypical slumlord,
but others are genuinely trying to provide decent housing.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
But even with good intentions, the financial pressures of owning
rental properties can lead to practices that squeeze tenants.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
And then there's the whole predatory world of fringe banking,
the check cashing services, the payday loans.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Oh yeah, those can be really dangerous.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
It can be incredibly predatory, and Desmond points out that
individuals who are already struggling financially end up spending billions
of dollars annually on these services.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
On fees and interest rates that are just astronomical one.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Hundred percent APR is sometimes it's just unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
And he talks about how these payday lenders rely on
keeping borrowers trapped in a cycle of debt.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
The average borrower, he says, remains indebted for five months
and ends up paying significantly more in fees than the
original loan amount.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
So it's the system that's designed to exploit people's desperation exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
And he points out that there's this lack of competition
in the industry and traditional banks aren't really interested in
offering more affordable small dollar lending options.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
So people are left with these really bad choices.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
And Desmond argues that the poor often make what seem
like bad financial decisions not because they lack financial literacy,
but because they lack better options.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
It's not about a lack of knowledge, it's about a
lack of choice exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
And even policies aimed at boosting income, like increasing the
minimum wage, can be offset by landlords raising rents.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
So the benefits don't always reach those who need the most.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Right, And he talks about the myth of welfare dependency.
You know, this idea that people are choosing to stay
on welfare rather than work.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Right. We saw a lot of that rhetoric during the
pandemic we did.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
And Desmond points out that the data just doesn't support
that narrative. You know, states that cut unemployment benefits didn't
see a significant increase in employment, So it.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Wasn't that people were choosing to stay home because of generous.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Benefits, right, And he brings up a really interesting point
about welfare avoidance.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Welfare avoidance so people who are eligible for benefits but aren't.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Accessing them exactly, And there are a lot of reasons
for this, you know, stigma of bureaucracy, just the complexity
of the system.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
It can be really daunting to navigate all of that.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
And he points out that even when some of those
barriers are reduced, like with the shift to EBT cards
for food stamps, we don't always see a significant increase
in participation.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
So there are other factors at play beyond just stigma.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
And Desmond makes this kind of surprising claim that the
American poor are terrible at being welfare.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Dependent, which goes against the common stereotype it does.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
He says that unlike corporations that are really good at
leveraging government benefits and subsidies, the poor often don't fully
utilize the available safety net.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
It's a really interesting perspective, and he challenges this idea
of makers versus takers.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
This idea that there are those who contribute to society
and those who take from.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
It, right, and he cites research showing that the vast
majority of Americans across income levels have relied on a
major government program at some point in their lives.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
So we've all benefited from the safety net in some way.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
We have. And here's a really eye opening statistic. Desmond
found that the wealthiest American families receive significantly more in
government subsidies than the poorest.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Now that's something you don't hear very often.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
It's not a popular talking point, but it's a reality
that he really brings to.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Light, and it's often obscured by focusing solely on federal
income tax you know, now considering the broader landscape of
government benefits and tax expenditures.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
So we need to look at the whole picture.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
We do, and this leads to what I think is
a really uncomfortable but important question that Desmond raises. He asks,
is a certain level of poverty simply accepted in America
because those who are not poor benefit from it.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
So poverty is maintained because it serves the interests of
those in power.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
And because of that, they're resistant to any real fundamental change.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
He describes the period leading up to the financial crisis
as a second Gilded Age, you know, characterized by this
extreme wealth accumulation at the top.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
But beneath that there was still widespread economic anxiety even
among the middle and upper classes.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
And Desmond argues that one of the drivers of this
wealth accumulation was tax cuts.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Which benefited the wealthy but often led to underfunding of
essential public services.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, he uses California's Proposition thirteen as an.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Example, which limited property tax increases and has had a
really significant impact on the state's budget.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
And he talks about how these shifts and tax policy
and the decline in the quality of public goods contributed
to acting of traditional working class political coalitions.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
With racial identity becoming a more salient factor in voting
patterns for some segments of the population.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
And then there's this concept of the hoarding of opportunity.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Courting of opportunity. So what's he getting out there, Well, he's.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Talking about how affluent communities are able to use their
resources to access better schools, safer neighborhoods, you know, all
these things that contribute to a good quality of.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Life, and that creates a growing divide between the haves
and the have nots.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
It does. And he talks about the NMDY attitude, the
not in my backyard attitude towards affordable housing.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
So even people who might support the idea of affordable
housing and theory don't want it built in their own neighborhoods, right, they.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Don't want to impact their property values, or you change
the character of their community, and.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
This perpetuates segregation and limits opportunities for low income families.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
So Desmond really comes full circle back to his main
argument that poverty in America exists not in spite of
our wealth, but because of it.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
It's a system that's designed to benefit those at the
top and those at the bottom are often exploited.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
And he argues that we as a nation prioritize policies
that subsidize the wealthy over policies that alleviate poverty.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
It's a system that's rigged in favor of the already privileged.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
And he says that this creation of affluent, segregated communities
fueled by these policies leads to concentrated poverty and despair.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
And it doesn't require you know, active malice to participate
in this system. It's more about passive acceptance, you know,
just going along with the status quo.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
So what are some of the solutions that Desmond proposes.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Well, he starts by talking about improving take up rates
for existing social programs, you know, making sure that people
who are eligible for benefits are actually accessing them.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Because, as we discussed there's a lot of welfare avoidance happening.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
There is, and he acknowledges that the reasons for this
are complex. It's not just about stigma.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Right, there are bureaucratic barriers, there's a lack of awareness sometimes.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
And he also addresses concerns about the cost of ending poverty.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Cost which is always a big concern in these discuss.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
It is, but he argues that we need to consider
the vast resources that we do have and the amount
that we already spend on subsidies for the wealthy.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
So it's about priorities, right exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
And he talks about innovative policy approaches like targeted universalism.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Targeted universalism, I like that term, he too.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
It basically means that while a policy might have a
universal goal, you know, like ensuring that everyone has access
to healthcare or education, different groups might need different levels
and types of support to actually achieve that goal.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
So it's about recognizing that equality doesn't always mean treating
everyone the same exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
And he also talks about his dislike for the term redistribution.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Redistribution. Yeah, it's a loaded.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Term, it is, and he feels like it frames social
progress as a taking from one group to give to another.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Rather than a rebalancing of a system that's currently skewed
in favor of the.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Wealthy, exactly, And I think that's a really important distinction.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
So what are some of the specific policy solutions that
he advocates for.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Well, he talks a lot about empower powering the poor
by increasing their choices and their bargaining.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Power, so giving them more agency.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Exactly, and that includes things like raising the minimum wage
to a living wage, eliminating subminimum wages for certain workers,
and ensuring that the minimum wage is regularly reviewed and
increased to keep pace with the cost of living, so.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Making sure that people who are working full time can
actually afford to live.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
And he talks about the importance of strengthening labor laws
and protecting workers' rights to organize it, so.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Making it easier for workers to form unions and bargain collectively.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
And he specifically mentions the Clean Slate for Worker Power Report,
which proposes some really interesting policies to empower workers.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
And what about housing.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
He's a big advocate for investing in high quality public
housing public housing.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yeah, there's been a lot of devestment in that area
over the years.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
There has and he points to successful examples like Via
Verde in the South Bronx and Bent Tree Apartments in
Austin to show what's possible.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
So creating affordable housing that's also sustainable and integrated into
the community, and talk.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
About expanding home ownership opportunities, particularly for communities that have
been historically excluded due to discriminatory practices.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Like redlining and other forms of housing discrimination exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
And he highlights the USDA's five h two Direct Loan
Program as a model for providing access to affordable mortgages.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
It's making it easier for people to buy homes and
build wealth.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
And he talks about reining in the predatory practices of
the fringe banking.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Industry, those payday lenders, check caching services exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
He advocates for stricter regulations mandatory disclosure of loan costs,
and he even suggests that the government could get involved
through the Postal Service or the Federal Reserve to offer
safer and more affordable alternatives, so.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Creating a more just financial system for everyone.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
And he also connects women's economic empowerment to reproductive freedom
interesting connection. He highlights the success of programs like Delaware's
contraceptive access now initiative in reducing unintended pregnancies, and.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
That allows women to pursue education and careers more freely exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Desmond argues that those impositions of power, you know, political leaders,
corporate executives, lobbyists, wealthy property owners, they have a responsibility
to work towards dismantling the systems that perpetuate poverty.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
So it's not just about individual choices, it's about systemic change.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
And he encourages us as individuals to vote with our wallets,
you know, support companies with fair labor practices, avoid those
that are exploitati.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
So being conscious consumers.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
And he argues that even ambitious anti poverty initiatives often
fail to address the issue of segregation.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Segregation the elephant in the room.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
He emphasizes the importance of creating truly integrated communities and
schools so that everyone has access to the same opportunities.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
And that requires dismantling those exclusionary zoning.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Laws exactly, and implementing inclusionary zoning mandate.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Which required developers to include a certain percentage of affordable
units in new housing projects.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
He points to New Jersey's success in this area as
a model for other states.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
And finally, Desmond tax this pervasive scarcity mindset.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
The idea that there's not enough to go around.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Right, that we have to compete for limited.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Resources, And he argues that this is a manufactured concept
that's used to justify inaction on poverty and pit different
groups against each other.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
So it's a way of maintaining the status quo.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Exactly, and he calls for a rejection of this false premise.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
And he ends with a really powerful question, what is
the true cost of poverty?
Speaker 1 (25:25):
It's a question that really makes you think, it does.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
He talks about all the potential artists, poets, leaders, innovators
that we're losing because they're never given the opportunity to thrive.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
It's a loss for all of us.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
It really is. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for
this incredible deep dive into Matthew Desmond's Poverty by America.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
It's a book that stays with you.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
It does, and to our listeners, thank you for joining
us on this exploration.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Desmond's work really challenges us to reconsider our understanding of
poverty and recognize the ways in which we might be
contributing to the problem.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
He does and we encourage you to reflect on these
concepts of exploitation, the subsidization of affluence, the impact of
segregation in your own lives and communities.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Remember, addressing poverty is both a personal and a political project.
Think about your consumer choices, your investments, how you engage
with your community.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
And if you're interested in learning more, we highly recommend
picking up a copy of Poverty by America.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
It's an essential read for anyone who wants to understand
this critical issue.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
That's all the time we have for this deep dive
into a best selling book. This has been.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Book cast bestsellers in minutes.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Until next time.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
See you then,
Welcome back to Bookcast Bestsellers in Minutes. I'm Paul, I'm Sarah,
and we are so excited to be diving into another
bestseller with you today.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
That's right. We take those impactful best selling books, you know,
the ones everyone's talking about.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Oh yeah, we know them, and we extract those key
insights for you, our listener, so you can be.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
In the know in just about the time it takes
to finish your morning coffee or you know, maybe like
a really good cup of tea.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
That's us Bestsellers in Minutes.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Today, Sarah and I are going to be taking a
deep dive into a book that has been making waves,
big waves. It's Matthew Desmond's Poverty by America.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
This one is a powerful read, Paul. It really kind
of shakes things up, I think and how we think
about poverty.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
It does. And one of the things that makes it
so powerful is that Matthew Desmond a sociologist. He didn't
just study poverty from like an academic.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Distance, No he didn't. He really immersed himself in it.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yeah. He lived in low income communities for years alongside
people facing eviction, experiencing firsthand the housing christ and he
did this in Milwaukee.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
And that's what makes this book so compelling. Right, You're
not just getting statistics and theories.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, you're getting real stories.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
You're getting real stories, You're getting lived experiences. He actually
lived in a mobile home park and then a rooming
house to understand these dynamics firsthand.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah, and he built relationships with families. He attended their funerals.
It was really in it.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
He was in it, and that personal connection really shines
through in his analysis.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
It does. So our goal today is to unpack Desmond's
main argument, get to the core of it. Why does
poverty persist so stubbornly in a nation as wealthy as
the United States?
Speaker 1 (01:36):
A question for the ages.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Right, it really is. And to set the stage, Desmond
hits us with a pretty jaw dropping statistic right out
the gate.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Oh yeah, he loves to use these statistics to really
kind of highlight the stark reality of the situation.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
He does, and he talks about the sheer scale of
American wealth and he points out that the US GDP
is larger than the combined economies of Japan, Germany, UK, France, Italy, Canada,
and Russia.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Wow, that's quite the list. It is it's huge, so,
like bigger than all of them combined.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, bigger than all of them combined. And he puts
it in even more concrete terms. He mentions that California's
economy by itself is larger than Canada's, and New York's
surpasses South Koreas.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So it really kind of begs the question, if we're
this wealthy as a nation, why is there so much poverty?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
It does, and that's the central question that Desmond tackles
head on in this book.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
And I think one of the key things he does
is shift the focus of the conversation.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yeah, how so well.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
He points out that for like over a century, you know,
books studies on poverty, they primarily focus on the poor themselves,
like who they are, why they're poor, you know, their circumstances.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Right, sort of deficits in their lives exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
And he cites all these like landmark works, you know,
Jacob Rieze is how the Other Half lives, Jane Adams
work with immigrants in Chicago, the Depression era of photography,
you know, yeah, those iconic SoSE iconic images by James
ag and Walker Evans. Of course, Michael Harrington's the other America.
These are all incredibly important works, but they share that
common focus right.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
On the poor themselves and the poor themselves. So how
is Desmond doing it differently?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Well, I think what's so interesting about Desmond's approach is
that he kind of flips the script.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
He flips the script.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Instead of just documenting the struggles of the poor, he
asks us to examine how the actions the systems of
the non poor contribute to and perpetuate poverty.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
So it's not just about the poor, it's about the
broader system that they're operating.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
In precisely, and I think the most powerful ways he
illustrates this is through the story of Crystal.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Crystal, Yes, tell us a little bit about her story.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Crystal's story is really heartbreaking, and Desmond uses it to
show the very real consequences of these systemic issues. So Crystal,
after an assault charge, faced a two year ban from
low income housing, and she was at the bottom of
a six year long waiting list for housing assistance.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Six years.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
That's unbelievable, unbelievable, And in the mean time, she was
forced into the private rental market, where she ended up
paying seventy three percent of her income just.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
For rent that is just not sustainable.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Seventy three percent, it's not sustainable. And this is where
Desmond really drives home this point about instability, instability as
a defining future of poverty.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
So it's not just about income, it's about the precariousness
of your situation exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
So because Crystal was struggling to pay that rent, she
ended up getting evicted, and then that eviction went on
her record, which made it even harder to secure stable housing.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
So it's like one thing leads to another and you
just get caught in this downward.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Spiral, exactly, and it's really tough to break free from
that cycle.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, and her story it just gets worse.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
From there, it does. She ends up staying with a
friend for a while, but then that falls apart, and
she's navigating the shelter system. She's relying on the kindness
of strangers. She's sleeping on buses and hospital waiting rooms.
I mean, it's a really tough.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Situation, it is, But Desmond emphasizes that even amidst all this,
Crystal is incredibly resilient.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
She is she even finds moments to sing gospel music
in public, and it's those moments that really kind of
highlight her humanity and her spirit.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
That's so powerful, and it really speaks to the broader
point that poverty is about so much more than just
a lack of money.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Absolutely, it's about lack of stability, a lack of security,
lack of opportunity. And I think that's something that Desmond
really captures beautifully in Crystal Story.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
He does, and Desmond also highlights the pervasive violence that
impacts the lives of many living in poverty.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yes, this is a really important point. He cites some
pretty disturbing statistics about gun violence in Chicago, for instance.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, And he talks about the high percentage of formally
incarcerated individuals and parents investigated by child protective services who
themselves had experienced or witnessed violence as children.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
It's a cycle of trauma that really needs to be addressed,
and Desmond doesn't shy away from that.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
He doesn't, and he uses the stories of his friends
Scott and Kimball or Wu as he calls them to
really illustrate the devastating impact of this trauma.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yeah, Scott turned to drugs to cope with childhood abuse
and tragedy.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
He died of a relapse and wou neglected a minor
injury and ultimately had to have his leg amputated because
he didn't have the resources to seek timely medical care.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
It's these personal stories that make the human cost of
poverty so visceral and so real.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Absolutely, and Desmond argues that eviction is not just some
like isolated, unfortunate event. It's actually incredibly common in the
lives of low income renters.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Way more common than people realize.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
I think. Yeah. He points out that there are over
three point six million eviction filings every year in the US.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
That's a huge number.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
It's actually comparable to the number of foreclosures during the
peak of the twenty ten financial crisis.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
So we're talking about a massive scale of displacement.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
We are, And he really brings to life what that
displacement looks like. You know, those eviction movers coming in
taking everything, even like basic necessities.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
People are left with nothing. That's hard to even imagine
starting over from that point it is.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
And then there's the instability of the job market for
low wage workers. Desmond talks about this rise of bad jobs.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Bad jobs more about that with these are jobs.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
That are low paying, few or no benefits, high turnover rates,
and we see these insectors like retail, hospitality, food service,
you know.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, jobs that are essential but often don't provide a
living wage exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And Desmond quotes people who talk about feeling expendable, like
they could be replaced at any moment, and young people
facing this future filled with deep economic uncertainty.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
It's a precarious existence, and it leads to what Desmond
calls poverty above the poverty line.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Poverty above the poverty line. So what does that mean, Well.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
It means that you might technically have an income that's
above the official poverty threshold, but you're still experiencing significant
economic insecurity.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
So you're not officially poor, but you're still really struggling exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
You're living paycheck to paycheck. You're one unexpected expense away
from disaster.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
You know, you're constantly worried about making ends meet, exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
And this is a reality for so many Americans, even
those who aren't officially classified as poor.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
It's a huge issue. And then Desmond throws out another
one of those really startling statistics, this one from Nobel
laureate Angus Deeton.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Oh yeah, Deeton's work on poverty is incredibly important.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
It is, and he found that millions of Americans are
living on four dollars a day or less.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Four dollars a day. Wow.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, it's a level of destitution that's comparable to the
poorest populations in countries like India and Bangladesh.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
And this is in the United States, the richest country
in the world.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
It's a really stark reality check.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
It is, and it really challenges our assumptions about what
poverty looks like in America.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Now here's where Desmond's analysis gets really interesting. He points
out that despite a significant increase in federal spending on
means tested programs you know those programs where eligibility depends
on your income.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
And assets, right like snap benefits TNF.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Exactly between nineteen eighty and twenty eighteen, poverty is persisted.
So we're spending more, but it doesn't seem to be
having the intended impact.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
This is where he introduces that idea of the leaky
bucket welfare state bucket.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
So what does he mean by that, Well, he's.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Saying that while the intention behind these programs might be good,
you know, taxpayer dollars being allocated to help those in need,
the reality is that not all of that money actually
reaches the intended recipients, so.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
There are inefficiencies in the system, there are barriers that
prevent the money from having its.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Full impact, exactly. And he talks about how some social
policies can actually inadvertently create further hardship for families. Oh likewise, well,
for example, he mentions how SSI checks can be reduced
if recipients live with relatives, so if.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
You're trying to pool resources with family members, you might
actually end up losing benefits exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
And the Earned income Tax Credit can sometimes provide a
larger benefit if unmarried parents apply separately.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
So the system kind of incentivizes certain behaviors that might
not be in the best interest.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Of families exactly. And then he talks about mass incarceration,
which he calls a profoundly anti family, state sponsored initiative,
and it has.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
A disproportionate impact on black and Hispanic.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Family absolutely tearing apart families and communities and really hindering
economic mobility.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Now here's one of Desmond's most challenging arguments, and it's
that many people and institutions directly benefit from the existence
of poverty.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
It's an uncomfortable truth. But I think he's right.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, he talks about how this can make conversations about
poverty really difficult because it forces us to confront some
potentially inconvenient truths about our economic system. Right.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
It challenges the narrative that we like to tell ourselves
about meritocracy and equal opportunity exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
And he really gets into the concept of exploitation as
a core driver of poverty.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
So he's talking about things like low wages, high rents,
predatory lending practices.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Right, And he argues that these practices disproportionately affect the poor,
but those who are not poor often benefit even indirectly
from these systems.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Like think about how we as consumers benefit from low prices,
which are often a result of suppressed wages for workers.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Right. It's a complex system, a lot of interconnected parts.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
And he connects this to the long standing debate about
the minimum wage.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
The minimum wage, Yeah, there's always a lot of back
and forth about that, there.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Is, but Desmond highlights the current research actually suggests that
modest increases in the minimum wage don't really have a
significant negative impact on employment.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
So the argument that raising the minimum wage will lead
to job losses is not really supported by the.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Evidence, right, And he uses the example of McDonald's you know,
comparing wages and worker conditions in the US versus countries
like Denmark where they have a much higher minimum wage.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Interesting comparison, it is.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
And then he looks back at the mid twentieth century,
a period of greater economic equality in the US. Greater equality,
greater equality, and he attributes part of that to the
power of labor unions like the United Automobile Workers the
AFLCIO SO.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Union has played a significant role in creating a more
equitable society.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
They did, and he argues that the decline in union power,
while often framed as you know, increasing efficiency, has actually
contributed to the rise in inequality that we see today.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
So the promised benefits of a less unionized workforce haven't
really materialized from many people.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
And then he talks about the concept of the fissured workplace.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Fissured workplace, So what's that all about.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
It's basically the shift towards companies relying more and more
on independent contractors and temporary workers rather than traditional employees.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
So instead of having people on their payroll, they're using
these alternative work.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Arrangements exactly, and this often leads to lower wages, fewer benefits,
less job security.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
And it disproportionately impacts those who are already most vulnerable
to poverty.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
And then he details some of the tactics that employers
use to limit worker power, like what things like discouraging
discussions about wages, implementing non compete agreements and no poaching
agreements which restrict worker's ability to move to better opportunities.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
So they're kind of trapped in these low wage jobs.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
And then we see how government programs like Medicaid and
food stamps can actually end up subsidizing these low wage employers.
How so well, because if workers aren't being paid a
living wage, they have to rely on these public benefits
to survive.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
The taxpayers are essentially helping to support companies that aren't
paying their workers enough exactly.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
And Desmond points out that even the earned income tax credit,
while it does provide some relief to low income workers,
it can also be seen as a way for corporations
to avoid paying a living wage.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Like, we're all complicit in this system in some.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Way, and Desmond challenges us to think about that complicity,
especially as consumers. You know, we might care about where
our food comes from or what materials are in our clothes,
but do we think about the labor practices of the
companies we support?
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Right? Are we paying attention to the working conditions the
wages of the people who are making those products?
Speaker 1 (13:42):
And he mentions the widening black white pay gap as
a stark example of the consequences of these systemic issues.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, and he even talks about his own family's decision
to stop shopping at a particular retailer for ethical.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Reasons, but he acknowledges that they haven't fully scrutinized all
of their choices as consumers, an.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Ongoing process, right, becoming more aware of the impact of
our spending decisions.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Absolutely. And then shifting gears a bit to housing, Desmond
talks about the issue of rising rents even in cities
with high vacancy rates.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah, that seems counterintuitive.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
It does, but he explains that it's not just about
operating costs for landlords. It's also about the limited housing
options available to poor families.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
So landlords can charge higher rents because people don't really
have any other choice.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Exactly, And he does offer a more nuanced view of
landlords acknowledging that some are exploitative, you know, the stereotypical slumlord,
but others are genuinely trying to provide decent housing.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
But even with good intentions, the financial pressures of owning
rental properties can lead to practices that squeeze tenants.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
And then there's the whole predatory world of fringe banking,
the check cashing services, the payday loans.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Oh yeah, those can be really dangerous.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
It can be incredibly predatory, and Desmond points out that
individuals who are already struggling financially end up spending billions
of dollars annually on these services.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
On fees and interest rates that are just astronomical one.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Hundred percent APR is sometimes it's just unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
And he talks about how these payday lenders rely on
keeping borrowers trapped in a cycle of debt.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
The average borrower, he says, remains indebted for five months
and ends up paying significantly more in fees than the
original loan amount.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
So it's the system that's designed to exploit people's desperation exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
And he points out that there's this lack of competition
in the industry and traditional banks aren't really interested in
offering more affordable small dollar lending options.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
So people are left with these really bad choices.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
And Desmond argues that the poor often make what seem
like bad financial decisions not because they lack financial literacy,
but because they lack better options.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
It's not about a lack of knowledge, it's about a
lack of choice exactly.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
And even policies aimed at boosting income, like increasing the
minimum wage, can be offset by landlords raising rents.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
So the benefits don't always reach those who need the most.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Right, And he talks about the myth of welfare dependency.
You know, this idea that people are choosing to stay
on welfare rather than work.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Right. We saw a lot of that rhetoric during the
pandemic we did.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
And Desmond points out that the data just doesn't support
that narrative. You know, states that cut unemployment benefits didn't
see a significant increase in employment, So it.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Wasn't that people were choosing to stay home because of generous.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Benefits, right, And he brings up a really interesting point
about welfare avoidance.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Welfare avoidance so people who are eligible for benefits but aren't.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Accessing them exactly, And there are a lot of reasons
for this, you know, stigma of bureaucracy, just the complexity
of the system.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
It can be really daunting to navigate all of that.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
And he points out that even when some of those
barriers are reduced, like with the shift to EBT cards
for food stamps, we don't always see a significant increase
in participation.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
So there are other factors at play beyond just stigma.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
And Desmond makes this kind of surprising claim that the
American poor are terrible at being welfare.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Dependent, which goes against the common stereotype it does.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
He says that unlike corporations that are really good at
leveraging government benefits and subsidies, the poor often don't fully
utilize the available safety net.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
It's a really interesting perspective, and he challenges this idea
of makers versus takers.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
This idea that there are those who contribute to society
and those who take from.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
It, right, and he cites research showing that the vast
majority of Americans across income levels have relied on a
major government program at some point in their lives.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
So we've all benefited from the safety net in some way.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
We have. And here's a really eye opening statistic. Desmond
found that the wealthiest American families receive significantly more in
government subsidies than the poorest.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Now that's something you don't hear very often.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
It's not a popular talking point, but it's a reality
that he really brings to.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Light, and it's often obscured by focusing solely on federal
income tax you know, now considering the broader landscape of
government benefits and tax expenditures.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
So we need to look at the whole picture.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
We do, and this leads to what I think is
a really uncomfortable but important question that Desmond raises. He asks,
is a certain level of poverty simply accepted in America
because those who are not poor benefit from it.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
So poverty is maintained because it serves the interests of
those in power.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
And because of that, they're resistant to any real fundamental change.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
He describes the period leading up to the financial crisis
as a second Gilded Age, you know, characterized by this
extreme wealth accumulation at the top.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
But beneath that there was still widespread economic anxiety even
among the middle and upper classes.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
And Desmond argues that one of the drivers of this
wealth accumulation was tax cuts.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Which benefited the wealthy but often led to underfunding of
essential public services.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, he uses California's Proposition thirteen as an.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Example, which limited property tax increases and has had a
really significant impact on the state's budget.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
And he talks about how these shifts and tax policy
and the decline in the quality of public goods contributed
to acting of traditional working class political coalitions.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
With racial identity becoming a more salient factor in voting
patterns for some segments of the population.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
And then there's this concept of the hoarding of opportunity.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Courting of opportunity. So what's he getting out there, Well, he's.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Talking about how affluent communities are able to use their
resources to access better schools, safer neighborhoods, you know, all
these things that contribute to a good quality of.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Life, and that creates a growing divide between the haves
and the have nots.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
It does. And he talks about the NMDY attitude, the
not in my backyard attitude towards affordable housing.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
So even people who might support the idea of affordable
housing and theory don't want it built in their own neighborhoods, right, they.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Don't want to impact their property values, or you change
the character of their community, and.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
This perpetuates segregation and limits opportunities for low income families.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
So Desmond really comes full circle back to his main
argument that poverty in America exists not in spite of
our wealth, but because of it.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
It's a system that's designed to benefit those at the
top and those at the bottom are often exploited.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
And he argues that we as a nation prioritize policies
that subsidize the wealthy over policies that alleviate poverty.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
It's a system that's rigged in favor of the already privileged.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
And he says that this creation of affluent, segregated communities
fueled by these policies leads to concentrated poverty and despair.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
And it doesn't require you know, active malice to participate
in this system. It's more about passive acceptance, you know,
just going along with the status quo.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
So what are some of the solutions that Desmond proposes.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Well, he starts by talking about improving take up rates
for existing social programs, you know, making sure that people
who are eligible for benefits are actually accessing them.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Because, as we discussed there's a lot of welfare avoidance happening.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
There is, and he acknowledges that the reasons for this
are complex. It's not just about stigma.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Right, there are bureaucratic barriers, there's a lack of awareness sometimes.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
And he also addresses concerns about the cost of ending poverty.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Cost which is always a big concern in these discuss.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
It is, but he argues that we need to consider
the vast resources that we do have and the amount
that we already spend on subsidies for the wealthy.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
So it's about priorities, right exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
And he talks about innovative policy approaches like targeted universalism.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Targeted universalism, I like that term, he too.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
It basically means that while a policy might have a
universal goal, you know, like ensuring that everyone has access
to healthcare or education, different groups might need different levels
and types of support to actually achieve that goal.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
So it's about recognizing that equality doesn't always mean treating
everyone the same exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
And he also talks about his dislike for the term redistribution.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Redistribution. Yeah, it's a loaded.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Term, it is, and he feels like it frames social
progress as a taking from one group to give to another.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Rather than a rebalancing of a system that's currently skewed
in favor of the.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Wealthy, exactly, And I think that's a really important distinction.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
So what are some of the specific policy solutions that
he advocates for.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Well, he talks a lot about empower powering the poor
by increasing their choices and their bargaining.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Power, so giving them more agency.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Exactly, and that includes things like raising the minimum wage
to a living wage, eliminating subminimum wages for certain workers,
and ensuring that the minimum wage is regularly reviewed and
increased to keep pace with the cost of living, so.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Making sure that people who are working full time can
actually afford to live.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
And he talks about the importance of strengthening labor laws
and protecting workers' rights to organize it, so.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Making it easier for workers to form unions and bargain collectively.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
And he specifically mentions the Clean Slate for Worker Power Report,
which proposes some really interesting policies to empower workers.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
And what about housing.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
He's a big advocate for investing in high quality public
housing public housing.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yeah, there's been a lot of devestment in that area
over the years.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
There has and he points to successful examples like Via
Verde in the South Bronx and Bent Tree Apartments in
Austin to show what's possible.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
So creating affordable housing that's also sustainable and integrated into
the community, and talk.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
About expanding home ownership opportunities, particularly for communities that have
been historically excluded due to discriminatory practices.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Like redlining and other forms of housing discrimination exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
And he highlights the USDA's five h two Direct Loan
Program as a model for providing access to affordable mortgages.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
It's making it easier for people to buy homes and
build wealth.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
And he talks about reining in the predatory practices of
the fringe banking.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Industry, those payday lenders, check caching services exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
He advocates for stricter regulations mandatory disclosure of loan costs,
and he even suggests that the government could get involved
through the Postal Service or the Federal Reserve to offer
safer and more affordable alternatives, so.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Creating a more just financial system for everyone.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
And he also connects women's economic empowerment to reproductive freedom
interesting connection. He highlights the success of programs like Delaware's
contraceptive access now initiative in reducing unintended pregnancies, and.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
That allows women to pursue education and careers more freely exactly.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Desmond argues that those impositions of power, you know, political leaders,
corporate executives, lobbyists, wealthy property owners, they have a responsibility
to work towards dismantling the systems that perpetuate poverty.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
So it's not just about individual choices, it's about systemic change.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
And he encourages us as individuals to vote with our wallets,
you know, support companies with fair labor practices, avoid those
that are exploitati.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
So being conscious consumers.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
And he argues that even ambitious anti poverty initiatives often
fail to address the issue of segregation.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Segregation the elephant in the room.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
He emphasizes the importance of creating truly integrated communities and
schools so that everyone has access to the same opportunities.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
And that requires dismantling those exclusionary zoning.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Laws exactly, and implementing inclusionary zoning mandate.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Which required developers to include a certain percentage of affordable
units in new housing projects.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
He points to New Jersey's success in this area as
a model for other states.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
And finally, Desmond tax this pervasive scarcity mindset.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
The idea that there's not enough to go around.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Right, that we have to compete for limited.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Resources, And he argues that this is a manufactured concept
that's used to justify inaction on poverty and pit different
groups against each other.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
So it's a way of maintaining the status quo.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Exactly, and he calls for a rejection of this false premise.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
And he ends with a really powerful question, what is
the true cost of poverty?
Speaker 1 (25:25):
It's a question that really makes you think, it does.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
He talks about all the potential artists, poets, leaders, innovators
that we're losing because they're never given the opportunity to thrive.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
It's a loss for all of us.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
It really is. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for
this incredible deep dive into Matthew Desmond's Poverty by America.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
It's a book that stays with you.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
It does, and to our listeners, thank you for joining
us on this exploration.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Desmond's work really challenges us to reconsider our understanding of
poverty and recognize the ways in which we might be
contributing to the problem.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
He does and we encourage you to reflect on these
concepts of exploitation, the subsidization of affluence, the impact of
segregation in your own lives and communities.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Remember, addressing poverty is both a personal and a political project.
Think about your consumer choices, your investments, how you engage
with your community.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
And if you're interested in learning more, we highly recommend
picking up a copy of Poverty by America.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
It's an essential read for anyone who wants to understand
this critical issue.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
That's all the time we have for this deep dive
into a best selling book. This has been.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Book cast bestsellers in minutes.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Until next time.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
See you then,
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