James Johnson: Redefining Rehab: Blending In-Person & Remote Care for Performance Clinicians

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of the Brown Performance and
Rehab Podcast, powered by Isofit and Firefly Recovery. Isofit is
my go to for all things isometric strength training. For
more on Isofit, be sure to check out isofit dot com.
Episodes like this are made possible by Firefly, the official
recovery provider of the Brown Performance and Rehab Podcast. For

(00:22):
more on Firefly, be sure to check out recoveryfirefly dot com.
This episode is powered by doctor Ray Gorman, founder of
Engage Movement. Learn how to boost your income without relying
on sessions. Get a free training on the blended practice
model by following at Ray Gorman dpt on Instagram. Joining
me for a second time on the podcast today is

(00:44):
James Johnson. James is a doctor of physical therapy and
bodybuilding specialist in particular, and James and I take a
different tune compared to our first episode diving into bodybuilding
in depth. Today we talk more about James's career and
transition and his edition of online offerings and more of
a blended practice model if you will. We talk about

(01:05):
this in relation to advice for other clinicians and coaches
and other individuals in the space and how this is
actually a potentially better system for the patient and you
as a clinician. Phenomenal episode with James. I really appreciate
his time and I know you're gonna love this one.
Enjoy James, Welcome back to the podcast, man, As we're

(01:25):
just talking about a lot has changed in the last year, Man,
but one of the things I still know you very
well for is obviously the bodybuilding space and just having
this very unique skill set and knowledge base within bodybuilding
and rehab that way. But obviously today excited to talk
about some of the other amazing things that you've been
doing lately for people who aren't familiar with you, which

(01:47):
you might fill mill a little bit about who you
are and all the great stuff you've got going on.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
Man. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So, you know, James Johnson, I
practice right now up in Rochester, New York. That's where
I'm physically located. But like you kind of hinted that
I do a lot out a lot in the online space,
whether that's performance coaching, bodybuilding coaching, or like remote injury
management for clients, consulting all that fun stuff, right, So
I like to stay busy in a lot of different realms,

(02:13):
keeps me active, keeps me on my toes. Sometimes it's
a little bit stressful, but yeah, I think that's probably
what we'll end up talking about, is like how that'll
meltz together today. But yeah, like you hinted at, my
main demographic is a bodybuilding or strength based athlete, just
because I'm active within that world. And obviously if I
can walk the walk and talk the talk, it makes

(02:34):
sense to come to me when you're injured because I
know what you kind of have to do to get
back to the stage or back to the platform. And
then obviously if you can do that, you know this
the team team sport atmosphere is you know, we're understanding
how to rehab those things as well. It's similar principles,
different sports requirements, all that. So you know, I handle
all of it, but I very much take a like

(02:56):
a blended approach with everything. So while I'm in the
online space and I have a physical presence, it's no
longer a separate entity anymore. And I think that's becoming
more and more common where you have, you know, even
within the commercial practice like remote therapeutic monitoring, where you
assign it's no longer the paper home exercise program. It's
let's get you on our app and we'll build you
out some like truly customized programming and i'll see you

(03:18):
in a month, right, Because at least with the individuals
I'm seeing, many of them are very independent and very autonomous,
so they don't need me holding their hand to show
them how to deadlift, you know, other than like maybe
let's break things down once or twice to make sure
we're not missing anything. But if it's truly like a
fatigue management type issue, let me just program for you
and I'll see you when you need me.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
Right, Absolutely, Yeah, No, I love that, And as you mentioned,
you know, it sounds like that creates a better situation
for the patient who doesn't have to, you know, wait
to come into the clinic out of set day and
set time that might not necessarily align with their schedule,
but also it works out better for you because I'd
imagine as someone who competes actively in bodybuilding, trying to

(04:01):
balance bodybuilding with also the active clinical life would probably
get very very difficult sometimes, you know, those long days
I remember when we were building out the clinics here
on the Eastern Shore, Like there's days I was putting
in twelve thirteen hours in the clinic and then going
home and doing additional work on top of that. You know,
sleep's not great, nutrition's not great. Training intensity just isn't

(04:23):
there because you've got nothing left in the tank, and
it's like it's really difficult to try and make it
work on all accounts when you're just dedicating so much
of your day to the clinics specifically.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yeah, yeah, and that's that's something, you know. So I
started in a commercial practice, just like I feel like
any any person listening to this podcast. Probably right, I
was working the forty hours a week, which is probably
actually fifty five hours a week when you look at
documentation time, travel time, all that. And I was coaching
at the time because my coaching company started while I
was in grad school, actually right, so I was probably

(04:58):
had a full time roster not working for time hours
on top of that, and I have a family and
I'm trying to bodybuild. I mean, there were there are
periods of time early on I started, I picked up
some personal training clients on the side, simply because I
wanted a key to a gym so that I could
train whenever I wanted to, and I would go in
and work out at like eleven thirty at night, and

(05:19):
I would like, very clearly, I remember, like you go in,
drink an energy drink to prop you up a little
bit more, train for an hour and a half and
then like collapse on your couch before you wake up
at six am for the next shift. Entirely unhealthy way
to do it. And you know, our American culture tells
you like, well, that's what you got to do. You
got to grind when you're young so that you can
enjoy it when you're older. That I ground myself to

(05:42):
the point where I was falling apart, Like I truly
started having health concerns because of the lack of sleep,
because of the stress, the anxiety, all that, and that
mixed with the family dynamic of growing now I have
three young kids. I was like, no, this is this.
I can't keep doing this, right, I can't do this
for another year, much less the rest of my career.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
Right right, right, it's just not sustainable long term. So
obviously that leads to this mindset shift of well, I
need to figure out a new direction to go. And
it's not necessarily leaving the profession entirely because at least
for myself. I love the PT profession, it's just it
needs to be sustainable for a long period of time,

(06:21):
and some of these positions are just not sustainable long term,
you know, personally, Like I don't want to leave the
PT space and tech on med device sales role or
something that's just that's not me, that's not who I am,
that's not what I do, and that comes with its
own unique set of quirks that could be discussed in
a whole episode in itself. So it's like, how do
we reframe our mindset from you know, this is what

(06:43):
physical therapy is towards. Hey, this is what it could be,
this is what the potential of it, you know, becoming
in the future that way. And obviously it's scary to
talk about change. A lot of people are always resistant
to change, and a lot of people are just like, well,
this is the way we've always done things, so why
should we break away from it when it works? Okay?

(07:04):
But I think again, going along with that framework and
mindset shift, we can't just settle for okay, we can't
just settle for average life and average outcomes. At some
point we might get a little greedy and say Hey,
you know what, I demand more from my life. I
only have one shot at it, after all, Like, is
it too much to ask for for me to be
able to spend a little bit of time with my

(07:25):
family or a little bit of time with my kids
and not spend fifty five hours a week working? And
I think that, you know, obviously, going into a different
direction like you did, into what you called a blended
practice model obviously opens the doors to all of that.
I'd love to hear more about what that blended practice
model means and looks like to you, And what's that
overall kind of bringwork been like for you implementing that

(07:47):
in your clinic.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah, so I want to prefas or preface all of
this to say that, like this, these are not my
original thoughts, right, Like, so I hired a coach. I
hired Ray Gorman with Engage Movement, and he's the one
that helped they kind of like put it all together.
So when I came to him, it was very much
like I said, online coaching business that's a separate entity.
In person physical therapy that's a separate entity. And the

(08:09):
people that came to me in person, for whatever reason,
I had this disconnect of like I wasn't putting them
on the online software that I had. It was very
much this is traditional physical therapy, even if they're an athlete,
even if they're independent, and people that come to me
remotely stay remote. Where now it's like it's almost like
there's a three tiered system, right, things can always move

(08:31):
up or down. Someone comes in for an evaluation, whether
that's in person or whether that's an online consultation, both
of them are treated you very much the same, except
one's truly in person. From there, it's the question of
how independent is this person, how cute or chronic is
the injury, and do I feel like they can independently
manage this, And that scales up whether they go fully remote,
if they go fully in person, or they do some

(08:53):
variation of the two. Right, a lot of my people
right now are evaluation right into a remote program unless
they're an in season athlete, and at which point I
do like sports recovery services and things like that where
it's like, hey, you have this issue, you're smart, you
have team coaches that are managing most of your training.
I'm going to build a program specific to you, but
you're also going to come to me for these short

(09:15):
sessions where we do some of my like sports specific modalities, recovery,
the compression gear, all that fun stuff, right, And it's
it's the ability and the freedom to like truly offer
what the person needs. That's what it is. It's not
about how do I make the most money out of
the person, how do I work the least. It's how
do I offer the service that I truly feel is
high quality without wasting the client's time, giving them the

(09:38):
best option, and just creating, like you said, balance for myself. Right.
I found and a lot of us are preaching. You know,
these clients or at least the subset of clients that
most of us in this like performance therapy model work with,
they don't need me, they need my knowledge. So how

(09:58):
do I give them my knowledge in an efficient manner? Right?
That doesn't require me to be standing there in person
next to them. I just need a method to give
them a program and to communicate either asynchronously or live
or however you want to structure that. So for me,
it's like I said, eve out into remote program. They
have the option of doing like a monthly consult or

(10:19):
weekly touch points, and through that I can manage most
of these issues. Now, most of my people aren't post surgical, right,
they don't need a lot of the manual therapy, and
there's a time and a place for that, right. But
with that model, you could always do that if you
need it to. It's not like I'm only a telehealth
provider or I'm only in person. I just gave myself
the freedom to go in whatever root suits the person

(10:42):
the best.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
Absolutely, and I think there's so many great things about
what you just outlined. I mean, first off, the individualization
of care. Right, the majority of the time when we
throw that around, we're referencing plan of cares and individualized
exercise plans, which, don't get me wrong, that's part of it.
But another part is, hey, how often do you need
to be seen? And what do we do if being
seen is not in person? What if it's a virtual

(11:05):
check in or you know, depending on some of these
different individuals. Right, there was individual that reached out to
me moved to Eastern Shore, Maryland, which, if you're familiar
with the area, it's middle of nowhere, small town life
from New York City. Well, apparently you can get a
PT appointment in New York City at almost any time,
because homeboy here wanted an appointment at like eleven pm

(11:26):
or like midnight or something ridiculous like that, and I
turned them away because I'm not going to be in
person at eleven pm at night, you know, doing PT
And then looking back, I was like, that's an opportunity
lost to help someone and make a difference because I
couldn't synchronously meet up with them. But what if there

(11:48):
was a way, somehow, some way that we were able
to meet up asynchronously or again, could I have provided
something to them through a different avenue of services that way?
You know, is there a different way that we could
have made it? And it's like trying to reframe our
mindset from well, if we're not in person, it's you know,
not good enough or whatever, to again, a lot of people,

(12:08):
as you mentioned, can manage their own conditions, So how
do we make it work in a different kind of
setting or a different kind of scenario. And I mean,
I think, if you know COVID in that era taught
us anything, it's that we can still provide really high
quality services and interventions to people without being physically right

(12:29):
next to them and right there. And you know, there's
a certain point where I almost think some of the
in person services go a little bit too far. And
what I mean by that it's like, as you like,
some of these athletes don't need you queuing every single rep.
Some of them don't need you giving feedback on every
single rep. You know, if we want to promote autonomy

(12:49):
and practice, at some point we have to kind of
kick them out of the nest and see if they
can fly. So I think the sooner we start with
that process of teaching them how to do it themselves,
the better off it's going to be. And not only that,
but it's almost like they're investing in themselves as they
learn how to manage this condition and they learn a

(13:11):
framework and process of self management instead of just oh well,
I have a problem, so I go to a PT
and I'm trading like my time and money for a
service done for you. It's almost like you're doing it
with them if you will.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
Yeah, absolutely, And with a lot of these clients too.
I think you touched on something. It's you know, the
expectation is you're going to go into a PT clinic.
They're going to sign anywhere from five to fifteen exercises,
maybe stretch, you do some modalities, but what if what
the client needs isn't more right, what if it's the
education that they need more recovery And now it's a

(13:48):
conversation about nutrient consumption and rest, recovery practices, hydration, all
of those things which I'm trained to do and can do,
And that's a huge component of all of this. Right,
it has to be a wholess view, and we'll r
in person. We know Insurance one doesn't reimburse for any
of that, and a lot of practitioners unfortunately aren't trained

(14:08):
in that. But yeah, I mean, if you've got the
you know, CrossFit gets beat up on all the time.
But you know, same with high school athletes. I'm going
to train a kid tonight and I grill him on
his nutrition every time he comes in, because there's been
a couple of times his strengths way down, He's super fatigued,
he feels lightheaded, and I'm like, well, what do you
eat today? I hate a bag of chips? Like come on, man, Like,

(14:29):
you're not helping yourself right. So if he gets injured,
is it because his form was off or is it
because he slept four hours because he was playing Xbox
all night. He hasn't drank a single drop of water,
and he hasn't like put any sort of fuel into
his body, and his body's just overly stressed, right, So
what's more beneficial me throwing some random exercises at him
to stretch his back out or having that educational conversation

(14:51):
with him and do you know giving him truly what
he needs?

Speaker 1 (14:55):
Absolutely? Absolutely, It's getting to you know, that term root
cause that gets thrown around all the time that way,
and I like to make a counter argument to it
and say, you know, a lot of times we can't
find the one singular root cause, but we can certainly
identify factors and patterns that will lead to someone's injury
or someone's downfall. That way, I call it a pre mortem,

(15:16):
you know, instead of a post mortem being done after
something catastrophic happens, like someone passes away and we look
into it to figure out why. It's like, what if
we did that on the flip side, and we just
kind of do this like audit evaluation type process and
look at all the things that could lead to something
catastrophic happening and then try and address those factors that

(15:37):
could lead to the downfall instead of just sitting back
and being reactive about it. And I think the other
element that I really like about the blended model that
you outlined is not only are we improving access and
improving the fact that you know, it's no longer confined
to a physical location, day and time, but we're also
doing it in a way that can be more reactive.

(15:59):
Right some of these different states. You know, in order
to go for an in person PT appointment, you literally
have to see an ortho first, or you have to
see some kind of provider that's going to send you
to PT, and there's like a like a gate in
between you accessing what you feel you need. And it's
like we're removing that barrier here, and we're making it
more accessible for you to get in earlier and quicker

(16:22):
when things might be in more of a you know,
preventative state instead of a reactive state. If you will,
I would say.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, absolutely. And the app that I use has direct
messaging to me, so like I don't advertise that like
twenty four to seven messaging because I like to sleep,
and you'll see that all all over the internet, which
I always laugh every time I see it. But there
is a high level of accessibility, which you don't have
in a traditional setting. Right. You know, so and so

(16:49):
client is going to do their deadlifts and they're saying, hey,
these warm ups don't feel that great. What should I do?
They can shoot me that message, and more often than not,
I'm going to see it in time to give them
some guidelines or at least I've given them probably some
education along the way. But they have the availability to communicate.
It's not just so I get to wait till next
week and now it's this huge problem when we could

(17:10):
have just you know, altered the plan, you know, before
something worse happened, and kind of coming back. I like
the phrasing that you use there. But yeah, so we
use instead of your you said, like pre mortem, right,
we use client attribute profile, which is kind of like
the report card. Right, so you look at the basics
active and passive mobility, everyone does that, right, strength hopefully

(17:32):
we're testing for that at this point, but also endurance, mindset,
lifestyle factors, right, and that lifestyle factor is a huge
one that nobody really talks about. But you know, they
could have great mobility, poor strength, They could have you know,
their mindsets dragging them down, you know, whatever it is,
fear avoidant behaviors. But when you outline it and you
have that visual and you can show them, now there's

(17:54):
buy in because it's things that they've never considered contributing
to their pain, contributing to their risk of injury, and
you just lay it right out in front of them
and then just say like, hey, we can address all
these things and you don't need more strength. Actually you
don't need you know, more exercise to do. You need
to address these three other things over here.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
Was it a huge like mindset shift or paradigm shift
for you to go from being able to put physical
hands on someone and assess all of those things in
person to possibly having to assess those things without you
ever seeing the person in person, for lack of a
better way to put it right, Like I feel like,
at least for myself that way, a lot of the

(18:33):
PT education I received was about how you assess someone
when you're physically there, right mango, muscle testing, range, emotion
assessments with tools, and so on that way. And obviously
you can still assess those when you're not in person
with someone virtually, but it's a different kind of like
mindset than what you've been taught. So what was that

(18:54):
process like for you? Kind of shifting gears from being
in person when you're able to assess some of those
things to being possibly remote when you do them.

Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, so I'll flip a question back to you and
then I'll answer that I got to be starky first, Right,
So which is which is more accurate for a highly active,
fit young individual for strength testing, a manual muscle test
in person, or you get them doing a three rep
max squat and send it to you, or a single
leg squat you know for repetition maximum. Right, those are

(19:24):
all things that they can video and send to me,
and I can assess their form and I can see
how much load they handle it, and I can see
how they execute it in any compensations. Right, So I
don't have to be there, I don't have to have
my hands on them. Same with mobility. Again, more often
than not, my clients aren't acutely post surgical, where you know,
exact measurements matter a little bit more. But I can

(19:45):
look at them, have them go through some specific movements,
either you know, live with me or you know, send
over a video and I can see if there's you know, asymmetries,
you know, compared to the contralateral side, So I don't
need to know precisely is it three D different to
know that there's a change and there's something different there.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
Absolutely, I mean to your point, I feel like your
rep max is or even what I call rep match.
I do that a lot with isometrics. It's like, hey,
you know, how long can you set up a timer
on your phone and hold a side plank? How long
can you hold it on the left side, How long
can you hold it on the right side. Right. It's
in my opinion, way more accurate and tells me more

(20:24):
than the mangual muscle test. It's something that, as you mentioned,
people can do on their own. And the other piece,
going back to the asynchronous element, you don't even need
to be right in front of them on a zoom
call or something when they do that, right, like, they
can literally send you the video and then you're just
interpreting what the results of that are and what it
means to them and how you're going to proceed moving

(20:45):
forward from there. Right. It's a different way of thinking,
and it's one that I wish was promoted a little
bit more early on, because I think that even if
some of these things were implemented clinically, right, if we
assess strength with more than just a mangual muscle test,
and you know, I know I'm not the only one
that feels this way. It's like, what what more could

(21:06):
we get out of that? You know? And again, what
is the manual muscle test even telling us in the
first place? And what are those some of those like
small minute range of motion differences telling us, Because I
feel like a lot of times in the PT space,
we end up chasing twenty different things that maybe we
don't need to, you know, and maybe we get distracted

(21:26):
by all these smaller little things that we pick up
on evaluation, not to say that they don't matter, but
like if someone's hip extension range of motion is one
degree different, I'm not going all in on hip flex
or stretching like some people might. And if someone's like
a four out of five on one side and a
four plus out of five on the other side, you know,
I'm not losing sleep over that level of difference. Like

(21:50):
I think sometimes we just major in the minors too much.
And the more we can streamline this assessment process through
some of these strategies like you outlined, I feel like
the more efficient the entire process becomes because we lose
a lot of that extra fluff that we all like
to add in there. I mean, I'm guilty of it myself.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
You know.

Speaker 1 (22:09):
It's like, I'm sure there's a lot of stuff in
my programs that doesn't need to be there, but you know,
it's just kind of like force a habit in our profession.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
I feel, yeah, yeah, and I truly believe that a
lot of those findings if you're building a comprehensive, well
thought out program, whether the client's injured or not, a
lot of those things will be cleared up. Right that
like four versus four plus. I'm hoping you have some
sort of unilateral training in your lower body training and
guess what, given enough time in a pain free or

(22:39):
pain minimal environment, it's gonna take care of itself, right,
So you don't have to Hey, we're gonna do five
sets of single extension on the left and three on
the right, and like, no, just let the body do
what it needs to do. Let it catch up. But yeah,
they come back to your original question. It wasn't a
hard transition for me, but Again, that's simply because I
was already doing so much online coaching and just the

(23:00):
idea of like, now I'm doing it a more clinical
side of things, So just kind of like revamping the
thought process a little bit. But yeah, like, and I've
never been someone who is very much manually biased. I've
very much been strength biased just from my background, so
I might be the prime candidate to do this a
little bit.

Speaker 1 (23:20):
What advice might you offer to someone who maybe doesn't
have that same background that's curious about the online side
of things, or maybe they want to take the leap
but they don't have that same background, knowledge base and
skill set in kind of you know, making it work
on that remote side or making it work with a
S ANDC kind of background that way, What advice do

(23:41):
you have for those kind of individuals that want to
take the leap but don't have some of those other
prerecs like you mentioned.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
Yeah, I mean, so the understanding that you probably are
more educated than you think you are, even if you
haven't practiced. You understand hopefully like the foundations of strength
and conditioning, and you can learn them very easily. There's
a lot of resources out there, and that it doesn't
have to be super advanced and super intricate, right, especially
for the general population who just needs to move more.

(24:07):
A lot of what we're doing is like, hey, let's
let's minimize the painful triggers, let's you know, take care
of the low hanging fruit, and let's keep you consistent
with some sort of exercise routine. Right. Like, maybe that's
distilling our practice way too much, But for the general population,
how many clients fit that mold, where like they just
need to be a little bit more healthy and a
little bit more active, and they're probably going to be okay. Right,

(24:29):
So for that provider that doesn't have a you know,
a really strong strength background, you're probably okay because you're
probably not gonna be working with the athletes that need
that level of minutia anyway. Right, And then yeah, just
you got to start somewhere, right. I firmly believe in
imperfect action. So long as you're trying to do your best,
you're gonna evolve. Like how I coach now is entirely

(24:51):
different from how I started coaching in twenty seventeen, and
that's how it should be. Just like we continually learn
or clinical practice with continuing ed you'll learn how to
do this more efficiently as you go, or hire somebody
to streamline the process.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
Right, you know, that's that's so great that you bring
that up, because one of the many things that at
least I feel is this I'm not sure what the
right word is for it, like imposter syndrome or whatever
it is that way, but essentially it's this like feeling
of like, you know, I know I have this robust background.
I know I've got this doctorate degree, but sometimes you

(25:25):
just don't feel like it's enough for the other element.
I have felt different times, even though I've like directed
managed PT clinics, even though I've been involved in a
lot of different things from a business standpoint, there's still
days where I feel like, you know what, I don't
know if it's enough, Like I don't know if I
can do this, or like I start thinking about like

(25:46):
how much money I might want to make from this,
not saying that money is my main goal, but at
the same time, like if you are going to go
all in on this and this is going to be
your burn the boats, and like this is going to
be my new revenue source, like you do need enough
to live comfortably you know whatever that looks like to
you four K a month, five K a month, whatever,

(26:06):
And I feel like that imposter syndrome or whatever the
heck the technical term for it is, comes about a
lot that way. Is that ever something that you felt
during this process at all? And if so, how did
you overcome that and what were kind of those things
that kind of kept you persevering forward.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
I don't think it's a bad thing to have imposter syndrome.
I think that shows a lot of positive qualities about
an individual, because I mean, if you're familiar with like
Dunning Kruger, right, Like, I'd rather someone have imposter syndrome
than follow the trap to get done in Kruger effect,
right where like they think they know everything and they're
missing so many things. So imposter syndrome tells me that, like,
you're someone who is critical of yourself, hopefully it's in

(26:46):
a positive manner, and you're going to continue to learn
and take advice from other people around you and become
a better practitioner because of it. You know, I don't
let it stop me, because one, I know, I mean
I not to disc to anybody. I graduated in a
class of forty and there was probably a third of
those individuals that have never stepped foot in a gym. Right,

(27:08):
So is my knowledge better than theirs? Yes, we have
the same degree, Okay, so I can probably do a
better job than that, right. And it sounds a little
bit pessimistic or cynical or however you want to word it,
but that truly is the way it is. There are
you know, there are great people in this profession and
there are people that probably aren't doing a great job.
So I need or at least I take the view
that my clients need me to do what I'm doing

(27:30):
because there's such poor quality care out there. Right, You're,
you know, saving these people from bad pt which you know,
maybe maybe that's a little bit extreme or a little
bit dramatic, but it is a way to think about it.
So yeah, and it's it's an ongoing journey, and it's
it requires a lot of just I think, not self
confidence necessarily, but you just got to do it right

(27:52):
and know that you're doing it for the right reasons
and just hope that that's enough. And yeah, man, when
it comes to the moneys in general, I feel like
we're scared about talking about money, but I you know,
I'm the sole income for our family, so that decision
for me was terrifying. It's why I put it off
for the longest time, and why I kept burning myself
into the point where like, all right, bad things are

(28:14):
happening to my health. Something has to change. And this,
this blended model, this hybrid model, is the perfect safeguard,
right because when you're doing purely in person visits, you
know Ray talks about you start at zero every single month.
When you're doing that, right, because you have no recurring income,
you have your bank account starting at zero, right, bills

(28:36):
are going to come out. If you don't have anybody
on the books, you're not making any money. When you
start offering those continuing you know, the the remote coaching,
the you know, injury management monitoring, however you want to
word it, that's a recurring revenue system. That's a subscription
based system for most people. So you never start at zero.
And the more you build that, the less you have

(28:57):
to do in person. So it gives you that time
for you to and that time flexibility. And I know
with this to come off sounding that like my goal
is to work as little as possible and make as
much money and just scam a bunch of people, but
like to a degree, you know, I do want to
find that balance. And what it really affords me is
not necessarily time freedom. It's the it's the ability to

(29:22):
choose when I do work right. Because it's asynchronous. I
can say I'm not going to work Monday mornings and
I'm going to take my Friday off and I'm going
to condense all my online client check ins into you know,
Monday night through Thursday. And as long as I can
make that work, that's fine. I'm working, and I'm working
very hard. I'm probably working as much as what I was,

(29:42):
but it's for myself and I get to choose when
I do that work. So if my daughter's sick, I
take the day off. If we want to go on vacation,
you know, guess what my laptop comes with me, and
I'll make some sacrifices and yeah, it's it's just the
flexibility and the fluidity of it all is what really
gave me happiness in the profession.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
Quick break, because if you're a rehab professional sick of burnout,
this could be your answer. Engage Movements Blended practice model
is a proven system built by doctor Ray Gorman, a
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and he didn't have to rely on the traditional way

(30:24):
of selling sessions to do so. It's all about blending
remote and in person services, stacking monthly recurring revenue, and
building a business that finally supports your life, not the
other way around. This model isn't just theory. Real providers,
including myself, are creating lives of freedom and flexibility without
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get free access to the complete training DM my name

(30:47):
Dan to at Ray Gorman DPT on Instagram and receive
your free breakdown on the model. Absolutely, and I think
that's something that to your point, if you're in personally,
there's just no way to get there. Even if you
do have some kind of subscription based thing open, even
if you do have some kind of like cash based

(31:08):
practice open, there still has to be a exchange of
time for service in person in a physical brick and
mortar location with someone there, and a lot of the
times that's just not feasible. Long term because as you mentioned,
life happens, people go on vacation or like you know,
as your kids grow up, like you're going to want

(31:28):
to be at the soccer games, the football games, wrestling,
bodybuilding competitions, whatever they get into. And it's like, if
you're stuck in the walls of a clinic, you can't
be there for them. But on the flip side, that's
not just a better life for you again, it's also
the better life for the patients and athletes that you
get to serve because they get the same thing. They

(31:49):
don't have to, you know, bend over backwards through their
schedule to find a time that fits your schedule in
their schedule to come in person anymore, and they might
be able to get their re obsession done a little
bit quicker. Right, Like one of the things I've started
to do in person with some of the people I
work with is I kind of outlined the session and
if they get it done early, you know what, we're done.

(32:11):
Like that's everything I outlined. I'm not going to add
in filler stuff and keep you longer just so I
can build one more unit. It's just not worth it
to me anymore. And I mean if We're being real.
Half the times the insurance wouldn't pay for it anyways.
So what's what's the point?

Speaker 2 (32:27):
Right?

Speaker 1 (32:28):
If I have outlined a plan and we cover all
of the things in the plan that you need to
do in order to move the needle forward in the
right direction in a nice therapeutic window that's above minimum
effective dose but not over maximum effective dose, right somewhere
in that goldilocks zone, then I'm not gonna bother to
push the needle, you know, over that maximum effective dose

(32:51):
line and risk you know, creating a whole other problem.
And I'm also not going to waste your time with it.
So it's like it's it's not just more efficient from
a scheduling standpoint, but I feel like even just the
workflow itself becomes significantly more efficient as well.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, how many clients, you know, they
got to take off work, they got to move around
and find rides for their kids. If I can program
something that they simply do in the time that they've
already allocated to be at the gym, that's a no
brainer for me, right, Like it's it saves them time,
saves me time, They get what they want, and I
get what I want, right because I can sit here

(33:27):
at my desk and do it all instead of having to,
you know, go into the clinic every single morning at
six am, throw my khakis on, and be uncomfortable all day.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
Absolutely absolutely, And you mentioned that family was like a
main driving motivating force for you to kind of go
this route. Was this something that's always been like in
the back of your mind about like making a jump
towards more of the virtual space or was this kind
of just like something that came about after you've been
in the profession for a while, Because I feel like

(33:57):
now clinicians that are younger and younger getting more interested
and intrigued by the virtual side, and some of the
clinicians I've worked with who have been in the field
for fifteen twenty years are just so overwhelmed by it
that they don't even know where to start. So where
did the kind of idea to even get into the
virtual side of things come from?

Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yeah? I mean it was always there and growing, right,
Like since I started the online coaching in twenty seventeen.
The goal was to continue to grow that roster to
a degree where it was much more sustainable. But I
don't think it really crossed my mind that that could
be this, that could be the lead source of income
or even the sole source of income. But somewhere along
the line it started to be just because you know,

(34:40):
price increases, increasing quality of services, increasing number of clients
where you know, towards the end, I was making as much,
if not more, on my online coaching than I was
my staff salary PT job, partly because reimbursement in New
York is terrible. Therefore salary in New York is terrible.
So if I was working somewhere else that probably wouldn't
be the case. But that actually helped the conversation as

(35:02):
well with my wife. But yeah, you know, when when
you start to see those numbers in you know, increase
and the side gig is no longer a side gig,
something has to give and the upside and the potential
of growth in a remote market. One for your time
and the time efficiency, and two for just like how
many people you can help, right like when you're online

(35:24):
you have a global market versus what's the upside of
me and my you know, salary capped you know, commercial
clinical practice. Maybe I'll get a three percent raise every year.
Maybe wasn't happening at the time, So it's like, how
what's the upside on this job versus that job? And
that's where the decision really came to, like something has
to give. As long as we're making enough to cover
the bills, we're gonna I'm gonna bet on myself, and

(35:46):
I always will bet on myself, especially when you look at,
you know, coming home from twenty twenty five patients a day,
knowing I've got, you know, a podcast after record and
probably ten client check ins to do, and I haven't
seen my kids yet, and I'm just mentally psychologically drained, irritated,
Like I'm an introverted person by nature, So being with

(36:08):
twenty twenty five people a day, like I was coming
home just like didn't want to speak with anybody, irritated,
and then I have to like be a dad, right like,
so like you can't do it, you can't do it all.
So something had to give, and it became an easier
decision the more success I found the online programming.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
You mentioning about the global market side of things, how
wide has your reach become in the online space that way,
are you getting clients from like other countries, other parts
of the world or is it still kind of very
confined to the US, or where did the leads kind
of come from? For that?

Speaker 2 (36:44):
That is always a fun conversation to have, right So
at one point, now this is not the case anymore,
of kind of consolidated a little bit. At one point
I had clients in sixteen different countries, which was fun
to manage, you know, talking about like available twenty four
to seven. You know, when you have clients in Australia
clients and like Austria clients in UK, I mean the

(37:05):
time zone difference, trying to communicate with all those in
a timely fashion was a nightmare. And that's partly why
I've kind of like pulled back from that a little bit.
But currently one client in the Philippines, a lot in Canada,
and like the northeast East coast of the US. And
then where it comes from, some word of mouth, some
social media, other like blog based platforms or like community

(37:27):
based platforms on the Internet, but really just a lot
of word of mouth. Right, you do a good job,
you prove that you know what you're talking about in
the right groups, in the right circles, and those people
will talk to their people and they're probably in the
same niche as you, and it just kind of grows
from there, really, And you know, I don't go the
root of like the paid marketing, paid ads simply because
I'm not good at it and I don't want to

(37:48):
just waste my money and I haven't needed it yet, right, Like,
I'm very much trying to take the authentic approach and
like have real conversations with real people and not chase
bad leads, because with what we're offering, it is a
kind of a premier service, right, and therefore has a
higher ticket price for some people. So you go chasing

(38:09):
people and you're going to get kind of the wrong clientele,
and it's going to be more stressful for me than
it is to find the person that comes in who's
very interested in me for me and what I have
to offer, and they're willing to pay the price because
of that.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
Absolutely, absolutely, And I think one of the things that
you mentioned there that I really want to hone in
on is that you brought up just how many of
your referrals come from word of mouth, and that comes
from delivering extreme value, right, And I think that there's
a lot that goes into that, whether that be how
you structure your offering to your client tele or just

(38:46):
what your interactions with them entail. Right, are you present
and locked in or are you oh yeah, i'm listening,
I'm over here on my freaking cell phone or something
like that. Right, And I mean a lot of these
clients are obviously frustrated with their rehab system because they've
gone in person and they've been with someone who sits
there behind the computer and plays Galagha half the day. Right,
That's just how it goes. So it's like, how do

(39:08):
we reframe this approach from you know, value is just
by being in person to value is actually how much
we can deliver and provide for that individual. And that's
not always being in person, that's not always being right there.
There's so many different ways to provide value and what
people look for that their own definition of value is

(39:31):
is all different.

Speaker 2 (39:31):
Right.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
Some people just want you to reach out once a
week and they're good to go. Other people, you know,
they might want a little bit more. Other people might
want even less. That's again going back to the individualization
of point here. It's going to look a little different
for each person. But you have that general flow, you
have that general framework in place, and as long as
you continuously over deliver, I think you're going to be okay.

(39:55):
And it's again I use that word over delivered because,
as you mention, the online PT space is not just
a simple easy thing. It's not as simple as sign
up and then just you know, rake it in overnight.
You do have to work for it. You have to
put some effort and energy into it. And you know,
it's just a matter of you now have the freedom

(40:17):
to be able to do it wherever you are in
the world, whenever you want, instead of being confined to
the walls of a clinic space.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I can move around whenever I need to.
I can, you know, travel, work while I'm traveling without
taking days off, and that's some It has its pros
and cons, right, like when you have that remote. You know,
my wife would say, never stop working, you know, so
I both and at the you know that counter argument.
My father in law, you know, he was an engineer

(40:45):
by trade his whole life and then worked on a
farm as well. He sees me sitting at home most
of the day and he asks, when do you ever work?
So it's right, like I both never work and always work,
right because you know, I get to choose, like maybe
I'll do some check ins late at night because I
took the day to you know, go take my daughter,
you know, out fishing or something like that. So I

(41:06):
have the freedom to enjoy my life so long as
I get the time, you know, the work done and
take care of my people. And you know, average retention
of my clientele is like a year and a half
two years, so you know, it seems that I'm doing
good enough right now.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
You mentioned average retention year and a half two years.
Is there something that you roll them over into after
they've kind of wrapped up that rehab side of work
with you.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
I like to view rehab and training as the same continuum, right,
It's it's one large timeline, right, So more often than not,
if someone comes to me injured, they're within one of
the realms that I'm normally performance coaching for as well,
and they'll just go straight from the rehab into their
performance coaching. It's not everybody, you know, there are some

(41:50):
people that come for one specific case and then they
go back to their like team, sport or whatever. But
especially in the bodybuilding world, you know, I can manage
all of it, so you know they don't need a
bodybuilding coach, a nutritionist, and a rehab specialist. I wear
all three of those hats, right, So the client that
comes to me more often not is someone who has
bodybuilding aesthetic or strength goals who also has chronic injuries

(42:15):
or an acute injury that doesn't know how to manage it.
And then they just stay on because, guess what, more
often than not, something's going to happen in the future,
and they want someone with the expertise to know how
to modify so they're not just sitting and resting for
four weeks waiting for an orthopedic to tell them to
go get an MRI or an X ray or whatever. Right,
we can go from that performance to the rehab and

(42:36):
right back. Or the more efficient way is we're going
to kind of dial back on this one specific area
that's injured, but you're still going to be training all
these other areas comprehensively, right, because that's just the way
we should train. Right. So, your shoulder hurts, so that
doesn't mean that your lower body training really needs to
be modified all that much, right, So we're going to
continue to program that and we're going to modify your

(42:57):
upper body training to allocate for that, right.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And then you
always have access to you and your knowledge basis and
skill set. And I would say that's another thing going
back to my point about providing value that I think
we under sell ourselves on is just how much we
know and also how much time that can save other people. Right,
the amount of times some of these people have spent

(43:23):
on chat, GPT and Google trying to figure out home
exercise programs, what their diagnosis means, and so on. That way,
it's like we can streamline all of that for them
and instead of you know, going down an hour or
two hour rabbit hole on the search engines, it becomes
a five to ten minute conversation. So we just gave
them significant amount significant amounts of time back. And it's like,

(43:44):
you know, what is your time worth to you at
the end of the day, Right, If you're getting paid
a job and you're making fifty bucks an hour, for example,
if I give you an hour of your time back,
is that not of value to you? And then when
I multiply that out by four weeks or more, that's
even more value. Right, So I think that's the other
element too. And now on top of that, you also

(44:06):
have the value of not being surprised by anything. Because
one of the many things I've run into I'm sure
you've seen it as well in the insurance based world,
is we have so many times where patients get hit
with a surprise bill from their insurance company are deductible,
and they're pretty notable even if the reimbursement rates are low.
You know, I've still seen thousand dollars plus bills get

(44:28):
thrown on patients out of nowhere, and it's like, that's
enough to really wreck a lot of people financially short
term because they're not ready for it, they're not planning
for it versus if they know there's going to be
a fixed cost monthly. But it checks so many boxes
and gives them value in time back, Like that's a
very worthwhile transaction in my opinion.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
Well, and just the idea of like reassurance, right should
something happen. I know, I can hop on a zoom call,
I can send a text, I can shoot a message. However,
your method of communication is to say, like, this doesn't
feel good. Do I need to go see a doctor? Yes?
Or no? If not, what's our plan? And that's a
very quick conversation, sometimes a voice memo, and they're like,

(45:10):
oh sweet, I was panicking, Now I'm good, right, And
that in itself is powerful, right, the power to just
like calm someone down with our knowledge so that they're
not spiraling and going through these like oh my gosh,
like my career is over or you know, I just
messed up the last six months of progress. And because
we know, you start googling some of these things and

(45:32):
you're going to get the worst case scenario, right.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
Absolutely absolutely got to love those web md diagnoses out there. Man,
what's been the biggest challenge to you across this whole process?
Has there been anything that really just did not go
like you planned it would?

Speaker 2 (45:48):
I wouldn't say it didn't go the way I planned,
but I mean there is some inherent instability, right, And
as you get further and further into the process, the
peaks and valleys flatten out a little bit, and as
the online and the recurring offers and you know, the
more it's not passive income, but it's like you know
what I'm talking about. As that grows, things get a

(46:08):
little bit more comfortable. But there's always going to be
a slight inherent risk of I could lose ten clients
next month or I could not get as many evals in, Right,
So I get the scarcity mindset around like working for
yourself and being self employed, but like the upside just

(46:28):
so vastly outweighs that risk, right. And one of the
things that really kind of pushed me over the edge
to like go through this process was like, worst case scenario,
how many open physical therapy jobs are there around me?

Speaker 1 (46:42):
Right?

Speaker 2 (46:42):
Like, if I truly fail, I have enough money sending
in my bank account to survive for at least a
couple months, and I'll just go get another job and
tuck my tail for a couple months until I rebuild. Right.
So it's not like the world's going to collapse around
you all at once. Hopefully there's going to be some
warning signs, and there's ways that you can kind of
you'll stop gap some of the funds if you need

(47:02):
to in those down months. But but yeah, that originally,
I mean, it truly is a rollercoaster. You'll have an
amazing month and you're on top of the world and
you're like, man, we're going on vacation next month, and
then three people cancel off your schedule in person, you
lose like three recurring clients and you, like an EVW
goes to the traditional clinic and you're going like, oh crap,
there goes like a month worth of income. Right, So

(47:26):
it's it's stressful at times. It's not this pie in
the sky I'm going to take my laptop to the
beach every weekend that some of the influencers would tell
you it is. It's still work, it's still hard, but
it's for yourself, and it's it's really so much better
for the clients.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
It is, Yeah, exactly, It's there's hills and valleys with it.
There's times where it's like it feels like the floodgates
are open and you're struggling to keep up, and there's
other times when you're just kind of like, I hope
something happens really freaking soon because we need it. We
need it, And I find the same is true from
the clinic standpoint. Again, I think the same risk is

(48:05):
there because just like you mentioned before, there's times when
life is good and there's times where it's like where
is everyone right? Like there's weeks where I have like
three plus evals every single day and there's weeks where
I have two or three evals across the whole week.
There's naturally going to be periods where business is booming
and there's periods where things are a little bit slower,

(48:27):
And it's just a matter of you know, understanding, you're
not gonna be able to stop the waves that come
at you in business, but you can certainly learn how
to serve them.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
Yeah. No, I love that. But yeah, but like I
said before, as long as you're not starting at zero,
things get a lot more comfortable. Right. Absolutely. I've had
periods where that recurring income has been anywhere from six
thousand to nine thousand dollars a month. Right, So when
you start out and you know you've got nine thousand
dollars guaranteed coming in, you can relax a little bit.

(48:55):
You can breathe a sigh of relief. Can't do that
for too many months because something will happen eventually, But
you know, it's it is very cyclical for sure.

Speaker 1 (49:03):
What's been the process of scaling up been like for you? Like,
how do you build that framework and then scale it
up to the point where you know, maybe three K
becomes six, six becomes nine and so on that way,
because obviously having that remote option is great, but having
the remote option that allows you to reach some of
those bigger goals that you might have is even better.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
Yeah, I mean the first and easiest thing. But also,
like the thing we all get kind of icky about
is you have to charge what you're worth. When I
first started coaching, I mean, keep in mind, I didn't
have the experience I have now, so it was justified
to charge less. I think I was charging like fifty
dollars a month. I'm not charging that now, you know,
because I have over a decade of you know, we're

(49:45):
close to a decade of coaching experience of been a PT,
you know, ocs, all that fun stuff. So like, there's
not many people doing what I do with the experience
I have, So you got to charge your worth. But
the biggest thing is the time efficiency of your processes.
You have to build systems where you're not spending two
three hours on each client every week, because then you're handcuffed,
right like, you just can't have enough volume to make

(50:09):
it work, even if you are charging a premium. So
and that's been evolutions for me. When I first started,
it was everybody emailed me their check ins, and I
offered like zoom calls whenever you needed, and some people
didn't do any and some people do like two three
calls a month, and then that's like an hour out
of my time that I'm not technically making money, and
it's taking away from my schedule, and writing through an

(50:31):
email not the quickest thing to do, right, because I'm
trying to respond with detail. And then it went to
I can't even remember how many iterations, but like now
everything is an asynchronous zoom call that I screen share.
So I open up their profile, I open up a
Google form that each client has that they've filled out
whenever they have the time to, and it talks about
all the you know, the pain markers, the performance markers, nutrition, sleep,

(50:54):
all that fun stuff, and I talk through like we're
doing right now on a zoom call live not live
with them, asynchronous with them screen sharing all their different data.
I pull up the program, I show them what's going
to be changed, I tell them why it's going to
be changed, and I send it over and then I'm
done for the day for them, right, And I just
keep going right through that and you break it up
across the week. But yeah, you know, what used to

(51:15):
take me an hour now takes me fifteen minutes, and
they're still getting the same quality. It's just I've become
more efficient with what I'm doing, right, so I'm not
skimping out on what these clients get. They're getting a
better product now, and most of them like it because
now they're seeing me face to face where it used
to be just an informal email. So yeah, it's it's

(51:37):
the time efficiency of it all.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
I'm curious, why do you feel like we as a
pt profession are so bad about asking to charge what
we're worth at the end of the day. Right, Like,
I have an Excel doc that I keep track of
the amount of money I've spent on education from school
and to coned and beyond that way, and that number
is well over three hundred and fifty thousand dollars, approaching

(52:00):
four hundred thousand dollars. And yet for some reason, that
whole concept of charging an extremely high amount just seems
very I don't know, I don't feel comfortable with it sometimes.
So why do you feel like we as a profession
struggle with that so much?

Speaker 2 (52:14):
I think most of us come from a place of
like wanting to give back. And that's tough, right because
you know, and this is the perfect saying for it, right,
with no money, there's no mission. I would love to
make enough money to do pro bono work and give
them more charities and things like that, but you have
to make the money to give the money. Right. Why

(52:35):
I think our profession is bad with it is partly
because of our education system tells us that we're worth
what a cope is, right, because we don't handle the
billing and our people aren't paying those prices because of
the system that we live in. So we see, hey,
they're going to pay twenty five dollars per visit, so
that must be all I'm worth, when in reality, I mean,

(52:56):
that's so far from the truth. But I think it's
a it's a combination of like the personality of individual
that gets into this line of work and a flaw
of the American you know, insurance based system.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
Absolutely. I mean people would pay more for a personal
trainer than they would a physical therapist sometimes.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
Oh yeah, oh, I absolutely. You know, when I was
in Delaware, I mean, you know that market a little
bit right, it's you know, retirement money. They've got a
little bit more wealth. I was charging one hundred dollars
a session for PT, and nobody in blinked an eye
and I had a full caseload. Meanwhile, I go to
like the PT office and it's like, oh my cope's forty.
I can't come in. It's like, you know, it's a

(53:34):
different mindset. And that's where you have to prove your
value a little bit, because you have to break the
idea because so much of the general population thinks of
PT like that pink dumbbells, resistance bands, no squad wrack
in site, You're gonna lay on a table with a
hot pack, and that's what PT is right where you

(53:54):
and I both know that's not it. And you have
to kind of like break that mold and step out
of it and show people improve people that you are
worth what you're.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
Charging, absolutely absolutely, And I think that again, as we've
talked about today, it's a never ending process. It's not
an easy process, but it is one that is extremely
worthwhile if you're willing to make the jump and take
the leap and go all in on it. And I
think that's the other piece too, is you have to
be willing to push your chips in on this. You

(54:22):
can't just kind of like dabble a little bit and
beat around the bush like you do. Have to commit
to it. It takes time, it takes effort. You know,
there are people that hit home runs on their first swing,
and there's some that you know, it takes them a
couple innings, and that's perfectly okay. Just know that you
have to put the work in and you have to
commit to it long term.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
Yeah, I'm a ten year success story, right, And I
always get jealous. It seems like it does happen where
like you see this new coach, this new athlete, whatever,
and they come on the scene and all of a
sudden they have a million followers, and you know they're
driving around the Lamborghini where I've scraped for every penny
I've ever made, but I've done it in a genuine fashion.
And then you know, I feel good about it at

(55:06):
the end of the day because i know I've built
it the right way.

Speaker 1 (55:08):
Absolutely. That's the best thing is, you know, knowing that
you can sleep while at night and that the character
box is checked that way. Man, I feel like we
can probably talk about this all day long, and I mean,
huge hats off to you. For the success that you've
experienced and this journey that you've been on, James, is
there anything we missed or anything else you want to
kind of close out on in our discussion today.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
The biggest thing that I want to come back to
is like, there is a lot of fear of the
unknown for anybody. I'm you know, I'm the prime example.
Like I said, you know, I've got three kids, my
wife's stay at home mom. My income is our income, right,
so if I fail, the family fails. So for me
to make this decision was not an easy decision. I
don't regret it whatsoever. I do think it's going to

(55:54):
be a lot harder if you don't have someone helping you. Right,
Like I said, I was doing it myself and scraping
by and trying to figure things out. The moment I
hired a coach, things just got easier because you have
someone to bound's ideas off of. You have a system
in place, and once this system's there, it's efficient, right,
And the efficiency is what saves you because now you're
not you know, you don't have to go find people.

(56:15):
People come to you. You don't have to guess and
check it's it just it smooths out all the errors.
So while it is a scary thing to do, you're
investing in your future, and you're investing in your family's
future and into the day. You have value and you
have knowledge, regardless of if you haven't you know, accessed

(56:35):
that yet or shown it off to your fullest extent.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
Absolutely, I love that. I love that point, James. For
people who want to find about find out more about you,
check you' out online, see your podcast, all the things
that way, where can they find you at?

Speaker 2 (56:48):
Yeah, so the best is just Instagram Jay Period, Johnson
Period DPT. That's linked to my business profiles and all
the other fun stuff I'm involved with. So yeah, super
active on there at least conversationally in stories. I don't
post as much as my marketing people probably think I should,
but you know, we make it work. So yeah, I'm
always there and if people have questions, I will hop

(57:10):
on a call with them, I'll send over voice messages,
I'll DM back and forth. I very much enjoy kind
of giving back to the community and helping other people
do that.

Speaker 1 (57:20):
Absolutely, I'd love that, James. Really appreciate your time. We'll
link to all of your social links in the description
below too. That way, if it didn't quite catch him,
you can just click the great the chat again and seriously, dude,
congrats again on the success and everything you're doing.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
Thank you, thank you for having me back on

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