Brewsers #309- Jigsaw

Today on Brewsers, we talk to JIgsaw. We talk about his journey in pro wrestling, fun times, and so much more. Follow us on instagram and twitter at Brewserspod. Like, share, review, enjoy and cheers. #brewsers #brewserspod #Enjoylife #DrinkLocal #Cheers 


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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:20):
We welcome to Bruisers, a podcast about beer, coffee, booze
and Bruisers. I am your history of John and today
we talked to Jigsaw. We talked about his journey in
pro wrestling, fun stories, and so much more. This is
such an honor to talk to Jigsaw. He has done
so much in the world of pro wrestling and he's
still at it and still helping others doing it as well. So,
but you don't want to hear from me, You want

(00:41):
to hear from him. So, without further ado, here is Jigsaw.
I would like to welcome to show Jigsaw. Well, how
are you doing?

Speaker 2 (01:00):
A nicer? I'm good? How are you today?

Speaker 1 (01:02):
And I'm doing well? So those listening kind of penis
a word picture.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Where are you at?

Speaker 1 (01:06):
What's going on around you?

Speaker 2 (01:08):
Right now? I am in my child's playroom while while
my wife is in the other room watching TV.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
How many kids do you have?

Speaker 2 (01:19):
One? Okay?

Speaker 1 (01:20):
How old are your kid?

Speaker 2 (01:21):
Hey? Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:22):
Very nice?

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Oh yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:25):
How does that work now with with your schedule? Like
finding the balance with all everything?

Speaker 2 (01:31):
So, I mean, as of right now, I'm pretty much retired,
semi retired at this point. You know, in my career,
I'm forty one now I'll be forty two next month.
And you know, I give people reach out all the time,
like promoters will reach out, and I, you know, I'm

(01:52):
very honest, you know, I tell them. You know, I'm
not where I used to be, you know, I you know,
And unless I can provide you with something that you
know I feel is worthy, uh, you know, I usually say,
you know, thank you, but no thank you, because I
don't want to be a disappointment to anyone. I don't
want to be disappointed myself either. And you know, I

(02:12):
like I I think pride in you know, the product
that I would put out there. So unless I feel
like I can give you my all, I usually say
no thank you. I also kind of rule a thumb
once I decided that I know I was no longer
going to be pursuing this full time, was that unless
it's something fun, like a like an opponent that you

(02:36):
know I won't want to work with, or someone I've
worked with in the past who I enjoy, like some
of my friends, or like a promotion that I've never
worked for that I think might be cool, or promotion
that I used to work for and had really good
rapport with like those are the ones I will say
yes to. But for the most part, you're like a
new upstart and you're like, hey, can you wrestle this guy?
And I've never heard of them? And I asked someone

(02:56):
if they've heard of them, and they haven't. Unfortunately, I'll
probably ask, but like, yeah, like last year, Chris Hero
reached out, and you know, I loved Chris. Chris is
one of my trainers, and he was doing his Chris
Hero's mixtape out in Los Angeles, and you know, for Chris,
I would do anything, you know. So he reached out
and he's like, hey, do you want to do this?

(03:17):
And it was teaming with you know, Hollow Wicked and
Matt McCaskey, who two guys who I I love, you know,
like I you know, those guys are great, and uh
so I said, of course, you know, like Lee Mariotti
was on the other team and you know at least
great as well. So I was like, stie me up.
So like that's the last time I wrestled. But it
was because it checked all the boxes, right.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Well, what was that decision like for you that you
were like, Okay, well this is I'm not doing this
any full time anymore.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah. So, I mean I was, you know, full time
for a long time. You know, I was from the
moment from the moment I started at Ring of Honor,
I was. It was the only job I had, you know,
and it was incredible. And then they got to a
point where I was going back and forth to Europe.
You know, I'd do three months in England or you know, Europe.

(04:10):
I would do England, Iron, Scotland, Wales, kind of like
in a circle, you know. I would do that and
I would come home for like two weeks and go
back for three come home for three weeks, go back
for four. And I did that for like three years
on and you know, working you know, six days, seven
days a week, you know, some of those schedules. It
was great, Like I really loved it. And then in

(04:31):
twenty eighteen, I I got really sick and I was
in the hospital. And from like twenty eighteen to you know,
two EIGHTHINK got sick. When I finally got myself back
up and running, the pandemic hit. And then I wrestled
one time during the pandemic and then I was like, yeah,
I don't this. I don't like this. This isn't for

(04:54):
me and then and at that point, like you know,
you just you know, I looked at the landscape and
I was like, there are a lot of really young,
up and coming, hungry talent, and like I'm just kind
of like a guy taking up a spot. And I
remember when I'd be on shows with I thought, were
you know, some like guys taking up the spot, And

(05:16):
I was like, I never want to be that guy.
I never want, you know. But at the same point too,
like I don't think, I don't think I've ever hit
the point where I was the bitter guy. But I
was just like I had a great run. I loved
everything I did in the world of professional wrestling. I
couldn't be happier with how that all turned out and
where it took me and the people I've met, And

(05:38):
I go, you know, like, I'm good. Have I had
my last match? I they know, I you know, I
would like to probably do one or two more with
some you know, other people. But it's just it's nice
to to determine your own schedule and do it when
you want, like almost like as a hobby at this point,

(05:59):
and I enjoy that part of it now, right.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
So well, let's go all the way back in time.
What is your earliest memory of pro wrestling?

Speaker 2 (06:07):
Oof, So, I'd say my earliest memory of pro wrestling
was I was I was a kid, as you know,
little like five, you know, four or five years old,
and I used to watch, you know, the Saturday morning cartoons.
You know, you'd watch Nijit, Turtle's g I Joe and whatever,
and it's you know, Saturday night main event or I'm

(06:28):
sorry Superstars. Superstars would come on early in the afternoon,
and I just loved wrestling because at that time, it
was like Ogan, it was Warrior, It's his day, eighties,
and I, you know, there's so like these characters, like
because you're watching cartoons and then you're watching these guys
who look like you know, you know, living cartoon characters,

(06:49):
and it was it was so was awesome, and I loved, loved,
loved loved wrestling. And then when the Attitude era kicked in,
I'm in grade school and so one of my one
of my favorite memories is my friend John, who I
still speak to this day. I was brand new, brand

(07:10):
new school. I was in third grade and he walked out.
I was alone. He walked over me on the playground
and I had my Virgil and my Texas Tornado had
pro figures and he came over and he was like,
you like wrestling. I like wrestling. And we've been friends
ever since.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
Now.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
We met the third grade vern our forties. Now he's
one of my best friends in this world. And we
met because of pro wrestling, you know, because I had
Texas Tornado Action figure. He was like, that's really cool,
like you have a Texas Tornado Action figure. And then
when the Attitude Ever hit and it was cool all
across the board, Like the people who didn't think wrestling
were cool now are like Austin rules, nWo rules suck it.

(07:55):
Like it was so much fun. So I was like
it almost felt like being justified, you know, like I
was like, this is great. And then, like I think,
like a lot of people, like in the early two thousands,
I kind of fell off watching it, But that's when
I was doing it the most right, you know, the
early two thousands, when I started independent wrestling and or

(08:18):
training even and I don't know why, there was like
a stigma back then. It was like that you weren't
allowed to be a fan like once like once you
once you lace up these boots, you're no longer a
fan and like, now, like that's the dumbest thing ever.
That was like some of the worst advice I've ever gotten,
because like I would like sneak watch wrestling sometimes and

(08:40):
then I'd be like, no, I love this, Like why
is this? Why is this looked down upon? You know?
And yeah, so like my earliest memories, you know, Superstars
on a Saturday morning with my brother and my dad
and it was yeah, I loved wrestling ever since I
was little. Yeah. Same.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
It is funny when you are the rest guy at
school as soon as the Attitude era happens. I imagine
everyone wants to be your friend and wants to talk
to you about wrestling, and you're like, where the fuck
were you like three years ago, two years ago, Like
you didn't want anything to do with this, and now
you want to be my friend.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
This is yeah, And the crazy thing is too is
so you know I had friends who they were white friends,
but they didn't like wrestling, and then when the Attitude
erek came along, they were like this is awesome. But
at that time I was super into E. CW. So
I was like, you think, this is cool way to

(09:36):
see this, and then people were like they didn't even
like their minds were blown. Like I remember my friend Eddie.
He was like, hey, did you know that there's real wrestling?
And I was like, what do you mean? He no,
it's real. It's real. It comes on on the MSG
network at midnight on Saturday nights. And I was like, oh,
you're talking about ECW. He's like, you know about ECW

(09:57):
and I'm like yeah, He's like that's real, and I'm like,
I mean, what are we talking about here? He goes,
did you watch New Jack? He's real? And then like
I met new Jack and I'm like, yeah, he's the
scariest human being alive. I get why you would think
that this is real. But yeah, so yeah, you get
a lot of popular points during the Attitude era.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
Oh without a doubt. Yeah, well you touched on something
about you know, people kind of falling off, and it's yeah,
once you start lacing the boots up, you somehow are
not able to watch wrestling and it's not cool, which is, like,
like you said, the dumbest thing, because you want to
know who else is out there, what else is going on,
who's doing what you know? And then also so that

(10:38):
you're not copying somebody or people being like, oh you're
doing blah blah blah thing. It's like what, I don't know,
are they doing that too? It's like, well yeah, you
aren't you watching? Of course you have to watch, like
what are we doing?

Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, it was that. It was a combination of that,
and like it was also a combination of like if
you watched your own stuff, you were a mark. You
were a mark for yourself, right, And then like so
you know, you're I'm twenty years old, Like I'm like,
I mean when I first started wrestling, like my gear
was awful. I was so skinny, like and it was

(11:09):
just like I looked like a person not to be
taken serious. Like I get how I looked. I was.
I was a kid who was like I love this
is all I want to do. And you know, like
you're around like grown men who are telling you these
things and they're not telling you it like it's advice.
They're telling it to you like hey, this is like

(11:31):
these are the rules, and like so you kind of
like shell shocked by it and you just go, okay,
you know that's you know, that is what it's And
then you know, I know, eventually, I you know, you
meet the right people who are like, don't listen to
these people. You know. This is like I remember, like
when I met Chrisiro. Crisiro, all he did was watch wrestling,
Like all he did was watch wrestling. Like I remember,

(11:54):
Chris didn't even had like cable. I remember he just
had a thousand VHS tapes and he's like, well, watch
the watch this down, watch this down. It's like showing
you wrestling saving with quack like quack, like you know,
all he did those guys, you know the lives sleep
eight wrestling. And I remember, years years, years later as
watched I Love Stand Up Comedy, and I watched a

(12:15):
documentary on Hannibal Bursts, and Hannibal Burst was over at
the It's like a like a festival over in Scotland.
I wish I could remember the name of it.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
The Edinburgh Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I said.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
Combati used to go go to it, I remember. But
Hannibal Burriss would like record his set, and in this
documentary he goes back and he listens to his set
and he's listening to it for his cadence. He's listening
to it. He goes, hey, like this joke that took
ten words, can I do it in eight words? You know?
Like do I stutter? Do I do I use a

(12:55):
word that is repetitive? You know? And I was like, yeah,
he's poning his craft. That's like if I were to
watch myself back and be like did I need to
throw this in here? Could I have gotten this point
without this point? Like could I have told the story
that I was looking for without this? Was this overkill?
Was this necessary? Should I have cut this out? And
like like if you watch, you know, with an eye

(13:19):
to critique yourself, you know, that's how you get better.
So when these you know, these five mile vets would
would tell you these things and you're like a nineteen
year old kid. I mean I started wrestling at sixteen,
you know, I started resting a sixteen And it wasn't
until I got and it wasn't until I was eighteen

(13:39):
nineteen when I met quacka Bush where I was like, oh,
like this is I'm allowed to enjoy wrestling, you know,
Like when I met you know, Hero and Mike and Reckless,
Like it's when I was like, oh, like I'm allowed
to this thing that I love that other people like,
don't be a mark, Like they're like, no, no, no, no, no,
You're not a mark. Yeah, And also pro wrestlers are

(14:01):
the biggest marks. We like it so much.

Speaker 1 (14:02):
We do it, yes, right every time someone like you're
the mark. You're literally a mark. You're you're the one
getting in the ring, You're the mark.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
We like it so much that we're like, this is
what we're gonna do with our time, you know, and
so like it. I just I'm so happy that the
landscape of professional wrestling is the way it is now
and not the way it is when I broke in,
because when I broke in, it was it was weird.
But also like the two thousand independent scene is like

(14:34):
looked upon as like this incredible time in history, which
I'm grateful to be a part of it, you know,
and I think it was. I think it was like
a really special moment when you have guys who are
bona fide Mount Rushmore wrestlers like Brian and aj you know,
like those guys will go down as like some of
the greatest professional wrestlers of all time, and like I've

(14:55):
shared locker rooms with them, I've shared rings, I wrestled Brian,
you know full times, and you know, I also remember
being in a locker room with like Samoa Joe and
Christopher Daniels and see him pumpkin these guys and like
there's like fifteen people, eighteen people in the audience, Like, yeah,
it's so cool to see those guys you know, just

(15:16):
grind and achieve and like it's like a self it's
like a sense of like pride to be like, you know,
the two thousand Independents was like this magical moment and
like these guys get their flowers for it where there
was a time where if you were an independent wrestler

(15:37):
you were like shunned. I remember reckless.

Speaker 1 (15:40):
Please talk about reckless youth because for people who don't
understand what you're talking about when it comes to the
two thousandth Independent time, you have to talk about guys
like recklessly youth because if it wasn't for him, like
there would be a lot of these guys wouldn't have
gotten the shine that they did, and the fact that
he didn't get more accomplished is absolute kind of insane.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yeah, you know, it's like, uh, it sucks because it's
like what if reckless was around ten years later, yeah, right,
But at the same time, it's it's that butterfly effect, right,
because if you don't have nineties, late nineties, early two
thousands of reckless youth, Like, do we get Alex Shelley, right,

(16:25):
do we get like myself? Like do we get guys
who looked at someone like reckless Youth and was like
taking all these different styles? And I say I and
I say that about Shelley, is Shelley's one of my
favorite pro wrestlers, like because he's someone who loves pro
wrestling the way Reckless love pro wrestling and would incorporate,

(16:49):
you know, things that he saw on Lucha Libre and
things that he saw over in Japan and things that
he saw you know, in catches catch canover in England
and incorporated all into this one hybrid unique style. And
I think someone like Shelley, like really and obviously Quackenbush too,
you know, really just made it this thing where you
could be the Swiss Army Knife of pro wrestling. And

(17:12):
I think that's what Reckless was, and it was so
you know, one of the things that stucked about when
I started at your Car was I only got to
train with Reckless a handful of times before he decided
that it really wasn't for him, and then he was
kind of like bowing out of wrestling. And I think
he don't I don't know, and I don't want to

(17:32):
speak for him. I don't know if he just fell
out of love with it or what, because I know,
like he did get signed that maybe he had an
experience there that made him fall out of love with
pro wrestling. But I mean, I think he would have
super I mean, he would have excelled. He would have
been you know, he was one of the greatest Independence
He was the king of the Independence, you know him,

(17:56):
yeah yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. And you know another
thing that I loved is to bring it back to
you know, Shelley is there would be guys on the
Independence where you would go out to specifically watch these
two guys wrestling, and they would take it around the
Independent loop, right like Quackenbush and Reckless. You know, they

(18:17):
would wrestle each other on different shows and you'd go,
I want to go watch that match, you know, and
then you'd have like low KEI and Xavier. Right when
I lived in New York, it was like low Key
in Xavier wrestling I want to see that match, or
the SATs are wrestling right, you know, like you have
the SATs in red right and you have them like
maybe it gains like the Briscos or like Quiet Storm

(18:38):
and go shout. It's like that's a match you want
to see. And then there was Dunk and Command that
would travel, and then there was like Jimmy Jacobs and
Alex Shelley would travel. And then there was the point
where the Chikara six Man would travel, and it was
like this cool thing where because of tape trading, you
would have like a group of guys who got popular
in let's say New York, like the SATs, and they

(19:00):
could take that match all around the United States and
like to Japan and Mexico and and then like you know,
then the six Man got to do that too. And
I I just want to apologize advance because I do
ramble on these things. So totally fine, go for it,
because I just love talking about wrestling and independent wrestling,
and just like all these guys who who I you know,

(19:22):
watched as a kid at independent shows and got to
admire them, like be in locker rooms with them, share
rings with them, like you know, Earn mutual respect with them,
and then some of them you can watch on TV now.
So it's really cool.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
It is, and I think that we as much as
there is this Obviously the footage is online somewhere, but
you got to find it and you know who you're
actually looking for and all this. But you know, I
do think that a lot of the kids nowadays, I'm
gonna say kids nowadays because I'm forty two, and I
can say that the guys nowadays watching wrestling coming up

(20:00):
up and wrestling, if they don't know who these people
are and they're not going back through and actually watching them,
they need to, because yes, a lot of them didn't
make it, or they had a cup of coffee, whether
it be be TNA Ring of Honor, whatever it was,
but they are the blueprint and the role models for
so many people after them, just the same way we're

(20:20):
saying things about the you know, MotorCity machine Guns now,
about how they have their kind of fingertips on everything
tag team wrestling from the time that they even started,
a lot of the guys before them, like we're talking about,
really helped them along the way and really inspired them.
So it's like, you know, two or three d two
or three degrees separated. Just because a lot of people

(20:42):
don't know about them doesn't mean they didn't have an
impact on the whole business.

Speaker 2 (20:45):
No, one hundred percent. Of course. You know, there are
so many guys who are so influential, and you know, yes,
some people may not know about them or you know,
not have heard their name, you know, and then someone
like would say, like I'm Brian Danielson or like seeing
Punk or an AJ then like you know, when they're

(21:06):
having like a sit down interview, brings these guys' names up,
you know, like, uh, you know, and and and it's
cool and it's really cool that you know, now with
like the Internet, like I know, I used to get
VHS tapes, you know, I would tape trade and then
there was the DVDs. But now it's like you can
find you know, High Spots has the streaming sums, you know,

(21:27):
I w you know in the iw TV. Uh you
know Jerry saying that they you know, they has streaming everything,
you know, Ring and Voter has the honor Pass I believe,
you know. So it's so it's cool that you can
just go back and see these guys who people talk
about and I mean that's incredible.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
Oh I love it. I Mean I've said it on
the show multiple times though. But if I was growing
up now, I probably would never go outside because I
would just be watching wrestling all the time. And there's
so much to watch. It's absolutely incredible.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah, there is definitely so much. I know. There are
times where I find myself, like say late at night
and if I'm like sitting on the couch and like
I don't have something to watch, like I go I
think of like what's like a because like a New
Japan World. I saw I subscribed to the Japan World
and I go back on sometimes I'm like, man, remember
when the network you can just turn on the network,

(22:19):
you know. But I'll h yeah, I'll like search sometimes
sometimes you can find them on YouTube, you know, our
Daily Motion. Like I'm like, oh, I'm looking for this,
I'm looking for the best of the super Juniors. Well
I have, you know, New Japan World, so I can
just you know, find it. But uh, it is nice
to just kind of like sit back, like I remember,
not not that long ago, it was Lance Storm. It

(22:43):
was like, oh, now I'm drawing a blank. But it
was like a Lance had like a SummerSlam match against
I want to say Edge, and it's it's like.

Speaker 1 (22:55):
The w c W because he was a US champ
against the champ. Okay, yeah I believe that.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
But it's like a quick sprint. But it's so good.
And it was like on YouTube recently and I was like,
I'm gonna watch this. This is great.

Speaker 1 (23:07):
Yeah, I've noticed I think they have I guess right
now all the NXC takeovers. So sometimes I'll just pop
in and be like, all right, where are we at now?
And I'm like yeah, I look back and stuff. I'm like,
holy shit, that that was so good, Like how did
I How am I not talking about this more?

Speaker 3 (23:20):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah? And then there's a there's a new YouTube channel.
What by new? If I say something's new, it could
be five years old. Well it's new to you, so
yeah yeah, oh no, it's just my brain how it
works these days. But it's a YouTube check called WWE Vault. Yes, yes, yes, yes,
they post so much incredible content. Oh it's so great. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:41):
Well, plus like if you you know, if you like
any local promotion or somewhat big promotions that like House
of Glory. House of Glory is running shows like every
month and so there's always something if you haven't seen
this match or this whole event, that's always on there,
or there's always ways to watch new wrestling that's happening
with it independence, And you know, I love that even more,

(24:02):
Like the trailer TV is great. I love watching DCW
on the weekends if I get a chance.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yeah, that is really cool that you know that you
can just watch an independent live, you know nowadays where
you know, I mean, I remember Chakara did High Noon
and it was like live streams and it was it
was a huge deal, like I remember for us, like
I remember being on Ring of Honor pay per views

(24:28):
and those being like like, hey, this is a big deal.
But they weren't streamed live, you know. It was like
they sold it and you could find it on pay
per view. But like I remember when Chakar did high Noon,
it was like, this is streaming live to the world.
And the very first match on that show I'm not
live stream is myself Ris Generico, and it was free,

(24:49):
like it was free on YouTube. It was like the
pre show kind of like hey watch this and if
you like it, by this, And I remember like it
being a big deal for Generico and myself because you know,
they we were told like, go out there, crush it,
because you know, we want to see if this match

(25:10):
can get some eyes to purchase it, you know. And
then the main was and Eddie and Quack and you know,
that match was incredible, and but that was like a
one off, like the very next Cha Car show wasn't
live streamed, whereas now like independent wrestling can be streamed
almost every show now, and it's so cool, so so cool.

Speaker 1 (25:31):
And around the world too, Like I ye remember, I
think it was just the middle of the day. I
was like, all right, what do they got? Oh it's Germany. Sure,
let's check this out.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
Why not? Yeah, that's awesome, that's so cool.

Speaker 1 (25:41):
Well, what was the moment for you that you decided
this is what I want to get into. I'm a fan,
but this I want to actually do this myself.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
So it was really funny because I've told this story
to both these guys. I was watching Rob Van Dam
versus Jerry Lane, and I was like, I went from, hey,
I love for wrestling too, I want to be.

Speaker 3 (26:06):
A pro wrestler.

Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, And I remember watching that match and it was
so crazy, it was so athletic, and I was just like,
you know what, like this is what I wanted, Like
I want to do that, what they're doing is what
I want to do. And I've had the privilege to
meet both those guys. And I told that story to
Rob Van dam And, who was my favorite professional wrestling

(26:31):
like I loved.

Speaker 3 (26:32):
Loved, loved Rob Van Damn.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
I told that story to him and he was like,
that's awesome. I'm so happy, you know, like because I
met him at TNA okay, you know, so like it
was like cool, like you know, like sharing a locker
room with him. And then I saw Jerry Lynd, who
couldn't be He's like the sweetest man in the world. Like,

(26:56):
and I saw Jerry Lynn and I said, I swelling,
you know, you're a match of robandam made me.

Speaker 3 (27:02):
Want to be a pro wrestler. And he said, I'm
really sorry about that.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
It was so funny. So and every time I see
Jerry Line, I bring it up to him. I go,
I remember what you did to me and he's like,
oh yeah, but that's the that moment, you know, I
was like in high school and I was like, nope,
this is this is what I want to do. And
from like that moment on. I remember I went to

(27:28):
my parents and I was like, I wanted for super
professional wrestling, and my dad was like, hey, my dad
wasn't super into it at first. My dad was like,
I end up and I want to purpa this thing.
Both my parents have never been anything but stanely supportive
of the journey and super proud of the accomplishments. But

(27:53):
I remember because I'm also sixteen, and my dad thinks
I'm a crazy person, you know. He's like, you're sixteen
years old, and I was like, I want to be
a pro wrestler. He goes, if you can find the
wrestling school, no problem, because in his eyes he's like
he's never going to find a wrestling school. It took
twenty four hours. It took us twenty four hours. There
was a wrestling school in Yonkers, New York, on Nappahana Avenue,

(28:15):
and it was every Sunday for fifteen dollars. This guy
would teach us air quotes, teach us how to be
pro wrestlers in a boxing ring. Oh no, and yeah
it was it was like this. He taught us how
to bump and then was like, all right, guys have
mattress and it was just like unsupervised.

Speaker 1 (28:36):
Hey, y that works.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
No, no, no no. And then I remember like me
and my buddy Chris and my brother, like we're doing it.
And then we liked it so much we started telling
our friends, and then the moment we started telling other people,
all of a sudden, fifteen dollars a weekend went to
twenty dollars and now I'm doing it on Saturdays also,

(29:00):
but if you do both days, you know, I'll give
it to you know. It was a whole thing. So
it's like but also, I'm sixteen. I don't realize I'm
being scammed. I don't really, my dad does. And my
dad is like super angry about it because he sees
what's happening, but he also knows that his children love this,
so he's not gonna pull us. But he's like, maybe

(29:22):
find something a little more reputable. So we found a
school in New Jersey, and this guy had done enhancement
stuff for WWE, and you know, the very first the
very first practiceman too, doctor Tom Pritchard was a guest coach,
so yeah, exactly, he was awesome. And so I was like, okay,

(29:43):
like this is a reputable school, but we went there
and again. Now I'm seventeen years old and I am
six to maybe a buck forty if I'm lucky on
a good day, you know, hail white skinned, and like
I didn't look like a pro wrestler. I just know
I wanted to be a pro wrestler. And this guy

(30:05):
was like I could you could tell he didn't have
time for us because he's training guys to be WWE
superstars and like where like, hey, I just watched Best
of the Super Juniors. Like I remember there's like two
thousand and like Steam isn't the best of the super Juniors.
And I'm like blown away by it, and I'm like
I want to do it. This guy's like at the time, dude,

(30:26):
nineteen ninety eight, ninety nine, Amazing Red is on every
New York City Independent and I'm like, yeah, that's the
style of wrestling I want to do. And I remember
this guy, Remember this guy telling us that like guys
like Reckless Youth, Red, Quack and Bush right, like they're
not pro wrestlers, right, what they do is in pro wrestling.
And then we had me and my buddies. Uh, and

(30:51):
this is where I met DDE Kingston. This is where
I met Kingston. I met Kingston at this school. So me, Eddie,
black Zich, Merciano, my brother, other guys. We would go
to independent shows and we had met Quack and Bush
at the the Jersey Jacob Right, he wrestles Red and

(31:11):
like the opening match and it's incredible, like the match
is so so cool, and at the time, chakara had
just started and we didn't know that. So we go
back to our training school and we're just doing all
sorts of like flippy cool, like you know, lucha libre
and like Japanese terrible. We're all doing it so bad.

(31:34):
We're we're like we're mimicking what we see on TV
or and we're just butchering it. But we're having fun.
And this trainer sat us down and just berated us
and was like, this is what you want to do.
You should go go get trained by Quack and Bush
and Reckless Youth and Blackjack was like, they have a school.

(31:55):
And the moment we found that out, we emailed immediate
Quacks like doing a seminar on this day, you guys
want come down. We went down and you know, we
went and this this trainer then emailed Quack a Bush
like trying to black balls, and Mike's like, I'll be
the judge of that. And we we've been with Mike,

(32:18):
with Mike, you know, up until the end, you know,
and like, I'm so grateful that Mike took the chance
on us, because you know, if it wasn't for him,
you know, I don't think, I don't think, I know,
I would not have had independent profession wrestling career because
I don't know if I would have even tried to
pursue another school at that time, you know. So you know,

(32:42):
I'm very grateful for that, you know, for all that
Mike did for us.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
Yeah, I've been lucky enough. I have Mike on the show,
and man, I could talk to that dude for hours
about pro wrestling. That guy is, like you said, just
a encyclopedia. And I've had multiple people on the show
say the same thing. They'll text him about something and
then about like, hey, I'm thinking about doing this in
this match, and like Michael just shoot stuff out at
them and then later he'll come back and be like, well,

(33:07):
also they did blah blah blah blah blah blah blah,
And I was like, yep, Jesus, I didn't know I
was gonna get a full dissertation on this.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah, another person with a wealth of knowledge, which is
it's actually funny that because like, like this podcast is
about like wrestling and like beer, and I don't know
if Mike's ever been within ten feet of an alcoholic beverage,
which is very funny to me that he'd be on
this podcast.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
I'm trying to remember. I thought we did a five count.
I'd have to go back and listen to it.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
I forgot if you did a.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
Five count or not, because sometimes I run out of
time and I don't get a chance to do people.

Speaker 2 (33:38):
But huh, what is the What is the five count?

Speaker 1 (33:42):
Okay, well, we'll get right into it. The five count
is a segment where I ask five random questions. Okay,
so let's go ahead and do that right now.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
Sure, if you got other stuff. I didn't mean to
jump ahead. You know, it's just a segment.

Speaker 1 (33:56):
It can go anywhere.

Speaker 2 (33:57):
Really, Oh, okay, what.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
Song do you car karaoke to car karaoke?

Speaker 2 (34:05):
Oh Man, California Love by Tupac is probably probably up there.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
Yeah, number two, this is the one that quacked. I
don't remember if you answer or not. So, but you know,
all cute it at you. If you owned a liquor company, brewery, winery,
coffee shop, or dispensary, which one would you own and
what would the name be?

Speaker 2 (34:26):
Oh? I would own a brewery because beer craft beer
is like I love. At any point in time you
have in the fridge, there's like, like right now, there's
like a Stone variety pack in there. There'll always be
like a variety pack of something. And I live in
Chicago right now. Yeah, and the Revolution Variety pack is great.

(34:49):
Also right now is we're getting to the point where
Stone releases there twelve Days of Stone, which is a
twelve k a twelve pack of twelve different beers that
you know, it's supposed to open like an advent calendar,
which is awesome, which every year comes out like my
wife will try to stock pilot for me, because you
knows how much I love it. What I would call it,

(35:12):
oh man, I don't know if I have any good
or clever names, to be honest with you, probably something
like boring, like Jigsaws Pub or something like that.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
I mean it could just be called Jigsaws. I mean
that's true too, Yeah, true too. Also, considering you were
in Chicago. More brewing is fantastic.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
And then also it is becoming it's about that time
of year where it is the Goose Island has their
Bourbon County.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
Bourbon Bourbon County, and you guys get.

Speaker 1 (35:40):
Proprietors and unfortunately down here in Texas we get almost
everyone except for that one.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
Oh yeah, we get it straight from the source.

Speaker 1 (35:47):
Yeah, you guys, I've seen pictures. It's literally displays inside
Bergers doors and I'm like, god, damn it.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah, the Marianos has it locked up. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So the supper market out here, they have it in
a kind of like you know, like if you go
when you see like like liquor in a case and
you have to call someone to get it. That's how
the bourbon barrel is. If you want the bourbon barrel.
And I love it. I love it. Every year my
uncle would get a couple of them and on Christmas

(36:14):
Eve we'd all have some. Yeah, it's a it's a
fantastic beer. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
We usually call a goose hunting and it's usually all
we do that day is is get those beers and
drink other beers too.

Speaker 2 (36:25):
So yeah, yeah, it's great all.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
Right, number three, what would your last meal be?

Speaker 2 (36:31):
Ooh, there's a there's a YouTube channel things called The
Mythical Kitchen where they have celebrities and they ask them
their last meals.

Speaker 3 (36:41):
I know if you've seen this.

Speaker 2 (36:42):
I did.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
I didn't know that existed until after I started asking
this question. Then I was like, oh, well I like
this show.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
Also, well just well, what's what's funny to me is
like it's like their last meal is the last dining experience.
Because obviously minute podcasts, so they're like like if you follow,
if you go like on their YouTube short I'll be
like like, hi, my name is whatever, whatever, this is
my last meal, and they'll name like seventy five things,
and I'm like, that's not how that works.

Speaker 1 (37:10):
I thought the same thing when I watched the show,
like that's not how this works.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
But I get it by And also I'm always intrigued,
Like I'm always intrigued, and I will say I maybe
like for my last meal, And maybe it's just because
they think of that show too. I think like a
like an eighteen course Ama case would probably be that.
Like if I could do an eighteen course Oma case

(37:35):
with fresh Asahi beer on draft and it's got to
be in a mug with a handle and like a
little warm sake on the side that I could have
like as a palate cleanser, you know, throughout Like that
would probably be my last meal. My my wife took
me to an oma case out here in Chicago. That

(37:57):
was like a four hour long experience best diying experiences
we've ever had in our lives. It was very private.
There were like eight of us at the table. The
chef talked to us throughout the whole way. It was
easily one of the best dying experiences I've ever had
in my life. So so so good. So I probably
say that I love that.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
Number four. Who are what inspires you?

Speaker 2 (38:24):
Oh? Or what inspires me? Uh hmm. I know it's
probably gonna sound like real cheesy, right, you know, but
like I look at my parents, right, and I go
because they're older now and when they were my age,

(38:45):
I thought they were like ancient, right, and I'm like,
these are like, these are adults, and now like that
I'm forty, Like I like my brain works differently than
it did when I was a kid, and I and
I put myself in their shoes a lot of time
and I and I wonder, you know, if I was
a pain the said things like that, Like my my
dad is legitimately like my best friend. He's one of
my best friends. I talk to my dad all the time,

(39:07):
and like I was flying back to New York tomorrow
actually uh and uh he's picking me up from the
airport and I get to see him for a few days.
And uh, like looking at them now and understanding what
they sacrificed and what they what they sacrificed and what

(39:29):
they gave up or you know, how they how I
was able to live the life that I lived because
of maybe some behind the scene things that I didn't
know that they did, or doing that as an adult
you kind of figure out really like inspires me to
be great for King and you know for other people.
You know, I get I get complimented a lot on

(39:54):
my manners, you know, saying sir, ma'am holding the doors,
and I believe and I get that from my parents.
You know, treat people the way you want to be
treated with.

Speaker 3 (40:04):
Something I was always taught through them.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
And so you know, seeing both of them retired now, happy, healthy, uh,
you know, always makes me smile. But like knowing that
knowing what they went through, not what they went through,
because like they went through super adversity. But like, I know,
I know that times are tough. I know, I know,

(40:28):
I do know that there was a point where times
are tough, and I didn't know times were tough, you know,
because I would have never have known because they would
never allow it, you know, because of the sacrifice and
just the hard work that they did and pushed through
and so like things like that. Like like that, you know,
it's something that I find helps me put my feet

(40:49):
on the floor of today and push forward.

Speaker 1 (40:52):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
That's huge.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
Yeah, I love that you're that you get complimented on
your your manners. I get complimented all the time online
as well. And I'm somebody and it was like your
mama raised you, right, I was like, I guess, so.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, the cern man thing goes a
long way, goes a long way. But like I said,
and I'm sure you were raised the same way. With
you treat people the way you want to be treated, right, Like,
you know, you wouldn't watch someone to look down on
you or you know, be rude to you, so you
don't do that to other people. You know, you give
where you can, and it doesn't take much to be polite,

(41:26):
to smile, to shake a hand, to hold open the door,
you know, to look someone in the eyes when you
speak to them. So, yeah, that's a that's a big one.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
No, I love that so much. At number five, what
would you tell your seventeen year old self?

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Oh, this is something I've thought about probably a little
too much sometimes, you know, I'd say to my seventeen
year old self that you're about to go on the
greatest journey in your life and you don't know it yet,

(42:03):
but you're about to travel the world, meet some of
those interesting people. You're about to go to places that
you didn't even know for, places to do something that
you absolutely love. Take it all in, Take it all in,
take every photo, shake every hand. That moment where you

(42:26):
see someone and you're embarrassed, who cares? Yeah, take the leap,
do it and enjoy it and start working out, you
skinny little bitch.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
Well, it's hard for you skinny guys to get muscle.
You gotta eat way more than your than you expect,
and you got to work the harder. Let's think it
was it's harder for us.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
It was not. I was eating every two hours. At
one point, I was drinking these shakes that were like
two thousand calories of shake. Jeesus a spoon. I remember,
like I tried so hard to put on weight. I
mean I eventually did, like I got to like two ten,
but but I mean it took a lot, a lot together.

(43:14):
Right now, like I'm retired, I walk around around one
eighty five or ninety that's my walk around weight. And uh,
you know I still do lift. You know, I still
do work out when I can. You know, I do
have a little back issues here and there, little knee
issues here and there, little neck issues here and there
from i'd say a car crash of a career on

(43:38):
Ring of Honor. When I was that Ring of Honor,
I was like balls to the walls.

Speaker 3 (43:42):
I'll do anything, you know.

Speaker 2 (43:44):
Sometimes I look at clothesline bumps. I took sometimes around
like how was your neck not brittle? Right? But yeah,
I wish I would have I wish I would have
took my I would And I tell us that pro
wrestler is now that I meet I, you go, you're

(44:04):
gonna be great at pro wrestling. There's also a very
cosmetic industry but not just that. If you take yourself serious,
other people taking serious. I think in the beginning of
this interview, I talked about how it was hard for
people to take a six foot two, one hundred and
forty pounds skinny kid maggy pants serious when they first

(44:25):
met me, you know, And I remember it wasn't until like,
you know, I put on tights, you know, when I
switched to tights and then I put on some weight
and things like that, it's like, oh, like, you know,
my people gained a little bit more respect for me.
I started showing up to shows in like button down shirts,
you know, like you don't have to wear a full
on suit, but you know, you dress the part, you know,

(44:48):
and you know your gear has to look good. You know,
your your ROLLI bag has to look good. You know.
Just you treat it like a profession, it will become
a profession, you know. And that's something I tell a
lot of a lot of people now.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
And I want to do seminars and things like that.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
It's like, you know, you're going to get out of
this what you put into this. So you know, if
you and I know I'm stuffy psy apologist, I sound weird.
H if you put the money into your gear, which
I wish I would have known early on. You know,
if you put your money into your your your diet
and your your gym membership, and you know, the clothes

(45:30):
you wear to and from uh. And it's not like
your clean cut, like make sure your your nails are
cut clean, you know, make sure your your teeth are good,
make sure you're brushing your hair, getting clean hair cuts.
You know, like all of that matters. You know, it
sounds crazy to think that it would, but it does
because you know, you want to It's a profession and
you want to be treated like a professional, so show

(45:53):
up to work as a professional.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
Plus you just never know who's going to be watching
or who's going to be at those shows.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
So yeah, yep, yeah, exactly. You never know. You never
know who you're going to run into, where you're gonna meet,
you know, and then then that gets you to where
you want to go.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
Sometimes, Yeah, without a doubt. So if people want to
see you wrestle, what three matches did they go out
of their way to watch?

Speaker 2 (46:17):
What three matches? I'd say the high noon match between
me and Generico, I'd say watch that because it was
at the time, I was in really good shape. I

(46:38):
was again like I'm wearing heights, I'm about to go.
I'm like a month away from going to Japan. Uh So,
Like I just felt like I was very dialed in.
Like I was very very dialed in on that one.
My mattress at TNA is like you can find it
on YouTube, but it's like five minutes long. It's like

(46:59):
a sprint that we did. But I love that match
because Sanji is one of my favorite opponents of all time,
which is another incredible human being. But like it is
just a fun five minutes sprint where both of us
look great in it because of how giving the other

(47:19):
opponent is. So it's a fun one. And uh that's
another one. You know, I don't really know. I try
to think of the one that I think I'm the
ones that people always think about. You know. There's there's
that four way between myself, Kodo Bushi, Nick Jackson, and Generico,

(47:41):
which I don't personally love, Like I don't love it.
Like a lot of people love that match. I I
like it for a different reason. But the matches. The
match is a good match. I mean, the match is incredible.
The match is an incredible wrestling match. Out of the
four individuals in that match, I I produced the least

(48:03):
in it, and all three of those other guys are all,
you know, multi millionaires right now wrestling on TV for
a reason. But I remember I had just left the
Ring of Honor, and at the time, I was in
a bad headspace and I.

Speaker 3 (48:17):
Didn't want to wrestle anymore.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
I was like, I tried it, I got the Ring
of Honor, you know, like I basically got fired, you know,
like when they fired Gabe. Like I got an email
that was like hey, like you know, we got nothing
for it at the moment, but you know, in a
few months, and then never heard from him again. So
I was like, well, this sucks, you know, Like I

(48:41):
guess I'm never wrestling from the Honor again. Now I'm
gonna have to like find like another like a like
a real, real adult job. And I was like, this
is in a bad headspace. I was like, this isn't
for me, Like wrestling isn't for me. Then uh, Whack
puts this match together and he's just like hey, man,

(49:01):
like you're gonna have a fun one tomorrow. And as
we're calling the match, and if you watch the match.
You can see like as I start, like the what
I do in the opening and what I do towards
the end escalate because as we're calling it, I'm getting
more excited. And I remember that love that sparked for

(49:21):
wrestling that I had because I lost it, and I
was like, I was like, I'm had to be in
the ring with three of the greatest professional wrestlers at
that time, three of the best pressure wrestlers in the
world currently, and I was like, eh, I don't care, Like, yeah,
that's where my head was at, you know. And then

(49:41):
that match I remember. The match ends, We get a
standing ovation from the crowd of the ECW Arena, We
get to the back and I just walk right up
to Quack of Bush and I tell him thank you.
I say thank you because at that point I go,
I love this, sing I love this again. The thing

(50:03):
that when I watched Robbie Ambers Jerry Lynd, the think
that I go, that's what I want to do. The
love that I lost is back and now I can't
wait to continue. And then once that happens, I decide
I'm gonna get tights, I'm gonna get myself in better shape.
And then I got a call from TNA. Now I'm

(50:25):
doing stuff with TNA. And then I got the chance
to go to Japan, and then I got the chance
to go to England and wrestle in Europe for the
first time. And then I was wrestling in Europe full time,
you know, for years, because of this spark that made
me go, oh, like you love this, remember you love this?

(50:45):
And so those are probably three matches, you know. I'm
sure an hour from now, when we're off the phone,
I'll go, oh, I should have mentioned this one. I should,
you know, But just that's where my brain currently goes
right now.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
There's nothing wrong with that.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
Well when did so?

Speaker 2 (51:05):
When you did?

Speaker 1 (51:07):
Unfortunately, I mean I imagine there are there's obviously always
gonna be peaks and valleys, especially when you're looking around
the landscape of pro wrestling and you're like, okay, well
why am.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
I not here? Or why am I not there?

Speaker 1 (51:19):
Or why is this person here? Or whatever it is.
As much as you're not trying to compare yourself to
anybody else and just focus on what you're doing. It's
not an easy thing to do all the time because
there are so many other active wrestlers at the same
time that either came up after you or you wrestled
and you're like, well, I know I'm better than they are,
but it doesn't mean you're going to get signed to

(51:39):
this place and that they're not. So with that in
your headspace that you were talking about, what was it
that kind of besides that match that really kind of
helped you be like, you know what, you know, I'm
confident what I can do. I'm going to keep doing
this because obviously I still love this and it doesn't
matter if I'm getting signed here it's not signed here.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
Well, I'll say one of the things that I'm most
proud of myself is I was very self aware of
where I was and why I was there, because I
knew when I put my total focus into this, great
things happened, and when like I didn't put my phone
I used to. I did a podcast years ago with

(52:20):
with Flesh Morgan Webster where I talked about this balance
of having one foot in the real world and one
foot in the wrestling world and never knowing which way
to lean right because I come from you know, I
middle class family, born and raised in the Bronx, and
it's like Hey, graduate high school, get a union job,

(52:42):
you know, and like that that's your life, Like that's
what you strive to be. Part of me is like
in my twenties, I'm doing this thing I love, you know,
is there a shelf life to this? Because I'm watching
guys my age, you know, start to put down payments
on homes and started to get married, and I'm like,
what do I do? So I got one foot out

(53:04):
like should I be leaning more this way? But on
the other time, it's like someone just flew me to
Germany to wrestle. That's crazy, that's insane. That someone was like, hey,
we like you so much, we'd like to pay for
you to come over here and do this thing you
really enjoy. So then it's like, do I lean more
this way? And I always had a hard time figuring

(53:26):
out which way to lead, So I was very self aware.
And then only was I super self aware, I can
profittly say this and very with a ton of pride
say every time one of my peers got signed, I
was happy because I remember, and I think we start

(53:49):
talking about this earlier, these like five mile vets were
so shitty and they weren't just shitting to me. They
were shitty to my friends, and they were shitty to
other people who maybe they weren't my friends, but we were,
you know, in the same locker room. And to watch
them succeed and just become the thing that we all

(54:11):
knew they could be was great, you know. And then
if there was someone that you were like, do they
deserve that spot? Tell yourself why are they there? They're
there because they broke their ass and they worked hard,
so of course they deserve that spot. So it's all
so I'm very grateful that I was very self aware

(54:32):
of where I was because of what I did, because again,
when I decided to move myself into a different direction,
things change. So it's like, well, when I change, things change,
so I know what I need to do. And at
the same time, you watch these other guys who you know,

(54:52):
maybe every show you're on, like they're there, like every
weekend you see them, you know, it's like, oh, yeah,
they're grinding just as hard down there where they are
because they work that hard. And so it was always
really happy for them and very self aware of where
I needed to be. I think the question was like
why I kind of fell out of love with it,

(55:13):
right yeah. I think the reason why I fell out
of love with it was because I got into professional
wrestling to wrestle. I didn't get into it because I
was like one day, like I'm going to pay my
bills doing this and like, but they becomes a point
where it becomes a point where you have to start

(55:33):
to think that way, and then it's like, well, I'm
at this point in the card. How do I get
to this point in the card so I get the
money that that guy gets, you know, and then you
start thinking about like I said, like I have one
foot in, one foot out, I have got family members.
It was also very funny where when I first started

(55:55):
wrestling and I have like aunts and uncles be like really,
like this is what you're doing, like what you know,
blah blah blah. And then like one like Thanksgiving, like
I'm overseas on a tour and like my whole family
face times me to like say, you know, happy Thanksgiving
and they're like this is so cool. You know, like
you're in Japan right now, and it's just like you

(56:17):
weren't you didn't like this from jump? Don't do this now?
Come on? Or like uh, you know, like when I
wrestle for TNA, and I was on TV, you know,
like they'd like, oh, I saw you on TV last night.
It's like, yeah, you're you're cool with this now, you know.

(56:39):
So there was you know, there was that uh, there
was that struggle and then and then you know, I
was in rig of honor and I remember when game
was like, we know, we want to take your mask off.
I was like, I was all about it. I just
felt there were different ways that we should do it.
And you know, me and gave by this conversation before
and and I've spoken about it before in the past,

(57:02):
but I think that because this major thing, what life
changing thing, career changing thing was about to happen to
me and I had very little say in it, and
then it kind of, you know, came out like a
Bartner bathtub. I was like, well, this sucks and how

(57:23):
am I going to recover from this? And like and
again that's another thing where I was upset because I
didn't have total control over it, but also self aware
that I could have spoken up and I could have
been like, I'm not doing this, or I could have
been like, no, I agree to this, but only on

(57:43):
these terms, or you know what I need to get
a better gear for this. So like I was self aware,
and I more self aware now in hindsight, where I'm like,
I should have just debuted a completely new character and
not just been like, hey, here I am with no mask,
because that didn't do anything. Ah, because the time of

(58:03):
resting can bring the honor the best wrestlers in the world.
It's like yeah, yeah, man, just like they're giving you
an opportunity take it and figure it out by at
the time when it flopped kind of right out the gate,
and you know, like I remember, one of the big
things was I was like I didn't want to I
wanted to have a build to it. I remember, I

(58:25):
wanted to have a build to it. I wanted us
to lose and then for us to be like, you know,
give us them the shot, for you know, Rocky and
Davy to be like no, like why like like if
we give you another shot, we risk everything, you risk nothing,
and I'd be like, I'll put my mask on the line.

(58:45):
Then there's the drama of will they won't they? But
because like you know, I feel like we would have,
like you know, those false finishes would have been so
much harder. But it didn't go that way. We lost
a match, and the only thing, the one that really
really really upset me was I was like, it has

(59:07):
to be Rocky. It has to be Rocky. Rocky understands lucha,
Rocky understands what this is about. It has to be Rocky.

Speaker 3 (59:16):
And the day of there like, it has to be Davy.

Speaker 2 (59:19):
Nothing against Davy. I like Davy h and wrestled Davy
Bunch and we've had good matches. But I was just like,
I have no saying any of this, and I think
that was the day that I.

Speaker 3 (59:34):
Was like, I don't know if this is for me anymore.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
Right, Yeah, that's hard, but I mean it, if you're
going to lose a mask, you need a reason. It
can't just be oh because we decided, Well that makes
no sense. Why if that's the case, then I can
decide wherever I want to write, like I'm the one.
I'm the one actually wearing the mask. I'm the one
going out there. And yes, of course you know they're

(59:57):
the ones booking everything, but still like make it makes sense,
but like who was who was even doing the booking
at the time.

Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
I was game. I was, well, Gavid called me and
and I want to say this. I love Gabe. You
know a lot of the opportunities I had in professonal
wrestling were given to me by Gabe. Yeah you know.
Uh so like Gabe to me was always great. You know.

(01:00:27):
I remember when I got a Game got fired from
the honor and then basically I got fired from a honor.
Like I remember being at my sister's house babysitting my nephew,
like super super bummed out and getting an email from Game.
It was like, Hey, I'm starting to thing with the
guys from Dragon Gate. I want you in, and like

(01:00:49):
he didn't have to do that, but he did. And
the very first Dragon USA show, he was like, Hey,
we're going to put a Chakar six man on there.
Jigsaw has to be the guy up, like he has
to be the winner. Yeah, like because we're putting it
together and you know, if it could have flowed better
if this guy wonder, this guy wonder we did this

(01:01:10):
with this, and Gabe was like, no, no, no, it
has to be because Gabe wanted to highlight me for
the Dragon guys. And I'll always be grateful for that. Oh,
grateful to Gab for that and thankful for that, you know,
because I think he I think he knows too, like
we both could have done that better, We both could
have handed that differently and uh but at the same time, like,

(01:01:33):
you know, Gabe also put me in the ring with
guys like Brian, guys like austin Arians and Igel McGuinness,
you know, like you know, Gabe put me in the
ring with Rocky Romero and like all these great guys.
You know, Gabe put me with Jack Evans and Ruckus,
you know, like and try to make that work. So
like I I hold no ill will like when I

(01:01:53):
talk about it, because some people are like, wow, you
must be so mad. I'm an adult. Why would I
be mad? Like all I had to do is be
like no, yeah, and like like knowing game now, he
probably would have been like, uh, fuck, okay, now what
do we do and then we could have figured it out.
But he had an idea and I was too big

(01:02:15):
of a bitch to be like, I don't want to
do this, you know, Like I spoke up a little bit,
but it kind of got pushed back. But all I
have to do is be like no, no, like this
is really how I believe. And you know, you're living
you learned yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
I mean again, I'm glad that you don't hold a
grudge because there's no reason. Like you said, you're an
adult and it happened however many years ago, and so
there's no reason too.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
Yeah, you know it's funny too, Like I, I don't know.
I have no grudge with anybody. I remember earlier in
the conversation was talking to you about that guy from
New Jersey. So there was a wrestling school in New
Jersey handful of years ago. I ran into him. Oh
so unfortunately it was a funeral and I'm at the

(01:03:02):
wake and he's there and he comes over to me
and he shakes his he puts his hand out, shakes
my hand, and he tells me, hey, I've been keeping
up with everything you've been doing and I'm proud of you. Wow.
And I was like, holy shit, because in my head
I was like, I'm going to see this guy here
and I'm gonna tell him off. I'm gonna tell him off.

(01:03:25):
And I remember in my head. I remember in my head,
I remember I was like, I have this one thing
I'm gonna say to him. It's one thing. It's gonna hurt, right.
I was gonna be like I remember it and like
it's so it's so shinny and silly. But I remember
telling him I've worked in more countries and you have states.
I remember that because I kept an eye on this guy,
and I remember I was like I was gonna hit

(01:03:45):
him with that. And the first thing who said to
me was hey, I keep an eye on you. Proud
of you. And I was like, what the fuck?

Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
Yes, it crumbles inside, like god damn it, I said.

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
I remember being like thank you. And then he was
like hey, He's like, shoot me an email. He goes,
I have a lot of photos and things that I've
kept over the years. If you want them, I'll mail
them to you. And I was like, holy shit, like
but also forget that. Like I was seventeen years old,
this guy was like twenty eight, right, he's a kid too. Yeah,

(01:04:19):
you know, so uh you know you live me. I
remember Kingston was there. Kids was like, fuck that guy
got on I don't think I don't think any even
got close to him. But you know that's Eddie. You
love him for you love him for who he is.

Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
You know that's awesome. Well, when you look back on
your career, what are some things that you look back
on very fondly. I mean obviously, like you just said,
working in that many different countries, but like what are
some other things.

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
Uh so, like something that like like like on every Sunday,
I'll get a text message from Icarus about the New
York Jets and I'm like, I would have never met
this guy and a million lifetime, but like he's my friend,
you know, and we talk all the time, and it's fun,
you know. Or like Dasher Hatfield or Jacob Hamama or Kingston,

(01:05:12):
you know, like Orange Cassidy and Chuck Taylor, these guys
who I talked to on a weekly basis, who in
another world, I don't know if I would have ever
met them, you know, so it's really cool for that.
It's also you know, I remember I was talking about
my parents earlier, and I believe my parents are two
the hardest working people I've ever met in my life.

(01:05:34):
And I remember my mom's never left the country, you know.
The very first time she ever left the country was
for Christmas a couple of years ago. Me and my
siblings surprised her with a bruise to Alaska. That's awesome,
it was her. It was her bucket list. I remember
as a kid, her always talking about that was her dream,

(01:05:57):
that was her bucket list, and her children were able
to provide that for and I'm very thankful and grateful
that we got to do that. And I remember we
went to British Columbia. It's like the most out of
the country she's ever been, you know. But we went
on this incredible, you know, ten day cruise or whatever
it was, to this thing that she loved. And I said, like,

(01:06:18):
my mother is like the hardest working person I've ever
met in my life, and because of her sacrifices, she's
like I've I've been to over twenty countries. Wow, I've
traveled the world. I've been to places that I didn't
even know I had wrestling, you know, and it's because
of wrestling. I've been to like, you know, I've been

(01:06:41):
to England, Ireland. I wrestled in Ireland. I didn't know
you I didn't know you could, and it was a thing,
you know, And I got to wrestle in Ireland. And
that weekend I traveled with Saboo for fourth right days,
which was I could write a book on just those
four days. Incredible time. But you know, I wrestled and Uh.

(01:07:04):
You know, I've been to Japan, I've been to Mexico.
Uh and uh like I went to uh Portugal, Like
I went to Portugal to teach par wrestling. They have
me to come to Portugal, not to wrestle, to teach. Yeah,
that's crazy, that's insane. Like when when they asked me,

(01:07:25):
I couldn't comprehend. My brain didn't work. I was like,
what do you mean and they're like, yeah, we'd like
to fly you out, like I keep you eye here
for you know, five days. I was like, this is wild,
But I get to do this because of pro wrestling.
And if it wasn't for pro wrestling, like I don't know.
I don't know if I would have ever left the

(01:07:45):
country if it wasn't for like an all inclusive vacation,
you know, like and and you travel the world and
you get cultured, you know, and you try other things
and you try and do things. And I think I
told you earlier. I was like, you know, my last
meal would be like a eighteen courseo a case. And
I don't know if I ever had sushi before I
went to Japan, Oh okay, you know, or if if

(01:08:05):
I only ever had like a California, you know what
I mean, you know, stuff like that. So it's like,
you know, you get to travel, you get to see
these these other countries, and you meet these other people,
and like, like there's this guy in England, this guy Dale,
who's I love him to death. He's one of the
one of my best friends too, but he lives in England.

(01:08:27):
I would have never met him without pro wrestling, ever,
what would I be doing over there, right, And so
it's just cool, like I'm very grateful for all the
things that par Wrestler gave me. I mean, like you know,
I WrestleMania fifteen was in Philadelphia and my dad took us,

(01:08:49):
me and my brother. My sister took us out there.
And the day of the show, we went to Denny's
to get breakfast and at that Denny's was uh, Jeff,
Jared and Owen Hart. They were they were having breakfast
and we walked up to them. They were sitting at
the table and we said, huge fans, we're here for WrestleMania.

(01:09:11):
And you know, we didn't have a camera or anything
like that at the time. There were no camera phones
or anything like that. So we asked for an autograph
and they autographed the back of the Denny's check.

Speaker 1 (01:09:25):
Oh, that's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:09:26):
He gave it to us and I have it. I
have it framed. And I was able to tell that
story to Jeff Jarrett when he called me to ask
me if I can would wrestle for GFW Wrestling. So
I get a phone call from Jeff Jared. He asked
if I want to be a part of this thing.
We're in Las Vegas. The first show goes great. We're
hanging out after the show and we're talking and I
got to tell him that story, and it was so

(01:09:50):
cool because he was the man. Jeff Jared is the man,
like he's the greatest, and I got to tell him that,
you know, same thing with like Dealo Brown, Like I
wrestled for TNA. Dealo Brown was my agent and I
came from the back of my match and Delo Brown
gave me a hug, told me I crushed it. And
in my head, I'm like, I have your action figure,

(01:10:12):
you're Deelo Brown. This is incredible, you know, or like
some of the phone numbers in my phone, I'm just like,
this is insane. This is insane. And if I wanted to,
I could text this person, you know what I mean,
And I have all that because of pro wrestling, you know,
and you know, very grateful for it. I love that

(01:10:33):
so much.

Speaker 1 (01:10:35):
Well, if people wanted to find out more about you,
follow you online, hopefully see you live again someday, you know,
by any merch.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
That you may have.

Speaker 1 (01:10:43):
Just how can they do all the things?

Speaker 2 (01:10:45):
All the things are at Jigsaw Wrestling. So Instagram at
Jigsaw Wrestling pretty dormant. Don't really do much on there,
but there's some fun stuff on there from old time.
Twitter is at Jigsaw Wrestling. Uh, mainly that's me just
retweeting my friends and complaining about New York sports based

(01:11:08):
teams and uh pro wrestling tease chicksaw My email is
at chicksawrest on chicksa Wrestling at gmail dot com. If
you guys every want to send me something. If I
don't reply to you because I don't check it very
you often, I know, I think it's gonna be a

(01:11:28):
few days to even find your email, So apologize for that.
But I'm really happy we got to do this. It's good. Yeah,
it's fun, fun talking wrestling. Good.

Speaker 1 (01:11:37):
Yeah, if this is an honor I remember seeing being
a fan of yours obviously with Shikhara and Ring of Honor.
And you know now that I'm actually able to interview
people that I was a fan of when they were
really coming up, it's it's it's really it's great on
my side. And I love hearing wrestling from obviously the
people who are doing it themselves. And you know, like
you said, you had your low periods, but you know,

(01:12:00):
wrestling again brought you right back to loving it. And
we all love it here obviously because I wouldn't keep
talking about it for days if I didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
Yeah, that's and that's great. And that's another thing too.
It's like, would you and I have had this conversation
without pro wrestling, right exactly? And what in what world
do you and I get to sit here and talk about,
you know, Goose Island, you know, bourbon Elle porters and
things like that. It doesn't exist without pro wrestling. Pro
wrestling is the bridge that brings us all together, exactly.

(01:12:30):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:46):
Thanks so much Jagswall for being on the show again.
Absolutely amazing to talk to him again. I could easily
talk to him for so much longer, but I wanted
to be very respectful of this time but he loves
to talk about what he has done, and he's also
loved seeing what's happening in the world and pro wrestling now,
So definitely make sure to follow him on social media,
and while you're doing that, make sure to follow us

(01:13:06):
on social media. It is bruisers Pod. That is b
R E W S E R S p O D
on the Instagram, the threads, and the Twitter. If you
want to send us an email, it is Bruiserspod at
gmail dot com. If you want to follow me directly,
it is Rody John.

Speaker 2 (01:13:19):
That is r O d I E j O N.

Speaker 1 (01:13:21):
Rody John is the name on the Twitter and on
a tap in case you want to find out what
I'm drinking, maybe we can have a beer together. If
you want to follow me on the threads or the Instagram,
it is a Fisher Rody John. So until next time,
make sure to enjoy life, drink local, and cheers.