July 31, 2025 • 38 mins
What happens when you combine a powerful personal story with strategic business messaging? You get Jo Bryan.
In this episode of the Business Roundtable Podcast, host David Carr sits down with Jo Bryan, message strategist, visibility expert, and founder of Show Up and Be Seen, to talk about how business owners and leaders can unlock the power of their voice to attract clients, grow influence, and build sustainable momentum.
Jo shares how she helps clients shape messaging that feels good, sounds great, and most importantly, sells. With a background in public relations and brand storytelling, she brings a unique blend of intuition and strategy to help coaches, consultants, and creative entrepreneurs get out of their heads and into alignment with the message their audience needs to hear.
In this episode, you’ll discover:
🎧 Listen now and start showing up as the leader your audience has been waiting for.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/business-roundtable--6049255/support.
Watch more episodes on YouTube and subscribe here:
https://www.youtube.com/@steward_your_business
Connect with Steward Your Business:
Website: https://stewardyourbusiness.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidwcarr
In this episode of the Business Roundtable Podcast, host David Carr sits down with Jo Bryan, message strategist, visibility expert, and founder of Show Up and Be Seen, to talk about how business owners and leaders can unlock the power of their voice to attract clients, grow influence, and build sustainable momentum.
Jo shares how she helps clients shape messaging that feels good, sounds great, and most importantly, sells. With a background in public relations and brand storytelling, she brings a unique blend of intuition and strategy to help coaches, consultants, and creative entrepreneurs get out of their heads and into alignment with the message their audience needs to hear.
In this episode, you’ll discover:
- Why messaging is more than marketing—it’s about connection
- How to find the “spark words” that activate your audience
- Common traps business owners fall into when writing about themselves
- What it means to embody your brand across platforms
- How visibility and vulnerability go hand in hand in today’s market
🎧 Listen now and start showing up as the leader your audience has been waiting for.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/business-roundtable--6049255/support.
Watch more episodes on YouTube and subscribe here:
https://www.youtube.com/@steward_your_business
Connect with Steward Your Business:
Website: https://stewardyourbusiness.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidwcarr
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
All right, Welcome to the Business Roundtable Podcast. I'm David Carr,
your host, founder of Stewart your business bringing people together
to accomplish great things. Today, we have a brand new
guest on the podcast, Joe Brian and Joe. I was
just thinking about this while we were recording. I probably
Joe might be the person I've known the longest on
(00:53):
this podcast. We go way back. We reconnected what was
last year at high school reunion. And I'm super excited
to have you on here, Joe, because not only we're
personal friends, we've known each other for a long time,
but I feel like you have got some great insights
to share to our audience, to our listeners and so on.
(01:14):
Behalf of all of all of us here at the
Business Around People Podcast. Welcome. We're so glad to have
you here.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I've watched a few of you podcasts, so I'm really
really excited to be a part of it.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
It all seems really great.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Thank you, Thank you. Joe is staying up a little
later with us. She's in the UK, so we were
just comparing time zones early before we got recording. So
thanks for staying up a little later with us to
record here. Yeah, jo you have had such a great
background and experience I think coming and sharing on the podcast,
(01:47):
your background with charities, nonprofits, working with local governments, in
transitioning if you will, from you know, into a program
level role into the higher level rule that. I'm super
excited to get into that a little bit and hear
your journey. So before we get into all the weeds,
(02:09):
why don't you walk us through a little bit about
your career journey, where you started, in where you are today,
and just so that folks get to know a little
bit more about Joe Bryan.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yeah, sure, sure.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
I mean you're making it sound much grander than it
actually is. I mean, as a child, I always wanted
to go into sort of counseling. I did a psychology degree,
and I really thought I had a really stringent career path.
And then as it was, that just didn't seem like
the thing for me in the end, and I ended
(02:41):
up getting my first job running a national helpline for
parents of children with special educational needs.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
So it's kind of a legal advice line.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
It was helping people through some really difficult and challenging
circumstances and battles that they had with schools and education system.
So loved that job and then had an opportunity to
work more locally to me, literally up the road running
a charity for people who were caring for loved ones
(03:13):
in an unpaid capacity but potentially for you know, much
longer hours than any of us would do a paid
job for and the impact that that had on people.
So that was that's probably the closest to some of
your clients in terms of almost running a business, because
I was answerable to like a board of directors and
(03:35):
responsible for kind of all the operations and strategic direction
for that charity. So that was a that was a
big job, and yeah, I loved it. I did love it.
But then in the end I moved into local government,
and I think both had its advantages and disadvantages. I
now work in public health, so that's where we're responsible
(03:58):
for improving the health and well being of local people.
I work for my local council, so it's literally I'm
supporting my friends, my neighbors, you know, my family, which
is which is really kind of privileged position to have.
So I'm kind of now sort of in like almost
a very large organization and sort of more like a
(04:21):
middle manager in a very large organization. But you can
so that there's a lot of differences between all those
different kind of settings. Charitable nonprofit sectors very different to
local government, which again is very different to private business.
So yeah, it's been an interesting journey. But I definitely
in my current job, although I work for local government,
(04:43):
I really do still bring and have that passion for
the charitable non profit sector and bring that into my
daily work.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Really.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So yeah, well, Joe, I mean so I loved hearing
your journey. I know you've said, you know where you originally,
like you mentioned I think before recorded like wanting to
be maybe a counselor. That shifted that modified. Obviously, you
have a care for people. That's what comes through loud
and clear, Joe, is through the nonprofit, being the director
(05:14):
or overseeing that now in this middle management in a
larger organization. But I hear that, lad and clear. Your
care for people is so important to you.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Definitely, and I think that what's interested is although I
never went down the route of being a counselor, what
was great about it is that I did learn some
of the skills that I still now use in everyday
working life, things like just EmPATH empathic active listening skills,
and we do when you were working as a kind
(05:44):
of counselor and client. And I think that they I
use that all the time all the time, kind of
like making relationships with different stakeholders and kind of the
management of the team, And when you're hitting somebody really
difficult and kind of challenging to work with, that's trying
to use that active listening to sort of try and
(06:07):
understand their perspective.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Where are they coming from, what are they what are.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
They trying to get out of this interaction, and what's
it like to be them? And I think that that's
something that I've carried with me from those sort of
counseling days, that if you can kind of understand a
bit about what somebody is trying to do, then I
think it sort of it gets rid of all that
conflict and it breaks all down and then you're like, Okay, right,
(06:35):
I get it. That's what that's where you're coming from.
This is where I'm coming from, Like what have we
got here that's in common? And how can we how
can we proceed? I literally had, oh gosh, a few
weeks ago, there's this somebody that I work with she's
external to my organization bringant, but.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Has a coming from a very different point of view
to me.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Very you could say, we're coming from kind of like
opposite sides of the table sometimes. And I've tried to
understand where she's coming from, and I think I get
it now. I think I understand her perspective and what
she's trying to do with her job and why maybe
sometimes she's quite challenging because that's she sees that as
part of her role that she needs to be because
(07:21):
she's kind of representing people.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Which is great.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
And we had a meeting recently and we were talking
about something that was due to be quite possibly challenging.
So I presented sort of my side of the story
and then said, I know what you're going to say.
You're going to say this, this, and this, and she
was just like, I've trained you well, You've taken.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
The words right out of my mouth. It was great.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
You know, it could have been a difficult relationship, it
could have been a conflict. But I think because I
kind of knew where she was coming from and understood
her perspectives like so well.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
That I knew what she was going to say.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
I knew what the points were going to be, and
then you know, hopefully she appreciated my kind of side
as well, and out of that we came up with
some solutions and some things that we could do together
to make the situation better.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
So yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
The stuff I was originally trained in is being used
literally on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Well that's right. Well, I think that speaks to your
success show in your career and where you're at now
and how you're fitting within an organization. And I feel
like part of the reason I have the Business round
Table podcast is there's some folks that are they don't
undert necessarily aren't opposed to it, but they're not maybe
either one not exposed to this learning and ability that's
(08:39):
out there. So hence the Business Roundtable podcast bringing folks
like you on to share and hoping they open up
the possibility and consider what could be. And then number two,
then they can actually take this and apply it, start
to apply it. And why I hope start as toward
your business was just to this point what you're saying,
whether you don't have to be a full blown counsel,
(09:00):
but you can learn these tools and techniques and become
more self aware, like you're saying, and I like to say,
what is it like to be on the other side
of you? So you the other side of you? What
is she going to have? How she going to respond
to me? And what I'm going to present? That was
really smart and of being aware of you, not on
even put words in her mouth, but just saying, look,
(09:20):
I want to consider what put myself on what you're
you're thinking? Right?
Speaker 3 (09:24):
How yes, definitely? And we don't listen, well do we?
We just don't. It's not a natural thing to listen.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Well, we all have in our head as I'm speaking,
you've probably got in your head like your next question
or your next point, or what you're going to what
you're going to say.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
We don't listen.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Kind of like wholeheartedly a lot of the time to
what somebody else is saying. And and sometimes when we do, gosh,
it really works to sort of build up that trust
and that relationship with whoever it is. And they get
taught it in sales, don't they. But you know, when
you're when you're selling to somebody, you really are supposed
to sort of understand what they've come into your shop
(10:04):
for and what that motivation is.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
So like it. It is used a lot in business.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
If it's done well, You're right, absolutely, Joe. On the
flip side, it's funny. I just talked with a couple
of people in sales this week, and we're talking about
all the bad sales people out there that are just
pitching you. They don't know anything about You're like, don't
you want to buy this? You like, you don't even
know about me, Like, no, what my circumstances are, and
you're just trying to sell push something on me. And
to your point though, Joe, whether if you take the
(10:32):
analogy of selling, meaning like we're trying to convey a message, right,
I'm selling. I'm trying to convey something just like you
and I are talking about our children. They want something right,
They're trying to sell us to buy something or get
something right. If you could do it in a very
thoughtful way and understand where the other person's coming from, you're
more likely to make the sale, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Yeah, definitely, definitely. I also think it really has an
impact sort of in like personal develop and working with
your team. Like I think what I try to do
when I'm sort of directly managing somebody is to try
and really understand, you know, what are they what do
(11:13):
they want out of this job?
Speaker 3 (11:15):
What, what are they trying to do?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Where's their where's their career going, where do they see
their next step?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
And by really.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Listening and understanding exactly what their current circumstances are and
what they want to.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Get out of it.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
I think that if you can get their goals and
their context through properly listening, I always find that people
then they just they work so much better.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
For you, you know what I mean, like you trying to
understand it.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
And I think sometimes I think sometimes as well within
a team, we often feel like everybody's got to be
developed and developed and developed and move to the next stage,
go on to the next bit of training.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
And I always say to people.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
That I managed that if your career goal is just
you know, I'd quite like to stay exactly where I'm
at and you know, have a good work life balance,
and that's.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
All I'm after.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
That That's okay, you know, that's that's what that's my
work goal. That's what I'm trying to do. I'm just
trying to, you know, keep it at this level and
get a good balance between work and life. And so
you don't have to have a huge kind of career
development plan that we need to work on together. Like,
just honestly, where are you, what, what do you want?
(12:28):
What are you trying to do? And let me do
everything I can to help you to get the right
experiences and the right Yeah, exactly, the right the right
working working life to and then I think people respond
really well to.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
That, right. Yeah. Well, I love I love the questions
you're presenting, Joe. And another reason I wanted to have
you on the podcast is, uh, you know, I'm based
here in California, and I want to hear the universality
that you're saying is that we all, I believe, want
to find purpose and meaning what we're doing, whatever that
is where wherever we're at. Some people are more driven
(13:04):
in a certain way and others are happy with hereat
and it's not I'm not here to make judgment one
way or the other. Is just a matter of do
you find I would just say, I would ask the question,
are you feeling fulfilled and you find peace? Do you
have joy? Are you Are you at a place where
I told you earlier before we start recording bringing a
light into the world. Are you a place of a
place where you can give because you have an abundance.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Yeah, yeah, definitely where you coming from.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
A place of a deaficit, right, Yeah, definitely a definitely.
And I think that you know, we've all I've had
times in in jobs where I remember one job and
I had had a really bad manager and it really
impacted me. And I remember sitting in my car having
a little cry before I went into work in the
morning and thinking, that's not what you want. And you
(13:50):
don't want anybody within your team to be to feel
like that about work.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
You want them to have some energy and enthusiasm and to.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Want to be there, to be enjoying what they're doing,
getting something out of it for themselves, and feeling as
if it's if it's worthwhile. And I think as managers
and that's our role is to make sure that people
really are getting what they what they need and then
that will give us what we need as a just
a natural give back.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Really yeah, well, I I think relationships thrive best when
it's mutually beneficial. It's not it's not transactional, it's not
I get this. I mean, there are the more that
we can make it mutually beneficial and looking after each
other's highest and best good. That's where I come from.
(14:38):
And I believe you did Joe as well. And I
really like and like the questions you're asking are you're
being very curious, You're being in a way of like
how can they help you? I think sometimes we don't
do that. I was literally talking about a client today
and they were saying, like, well, we we met with
some we met with our employees, and we asked them
did they have any any problems or any challenges or
(14:58):
no you and our natural tendency is to say no,
we're fine, Yeah, no, everything's okay. And so instead unless
you ask curious and probing questions like you just did, Joe,
I feel like, yeah, it's a missed opportunity.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yeah, Like in that situation, you could be asking, you know,
what could be one thing that could be different about
the workplace that would mean that you would enjoy your
job more?
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Perhaps, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I think they don't need to be they need to
be tricky questions, do they? But people do often tell
us what they think you want to hear. So I
think there has to be a way of sort of
establishing that authenticity and honesty and if you can get
that with somebody where you're really operating at that level
(15:47):
and just you're saying what you think, they're saying what
they think, and then it's a really open conversation. Then
I think you've got a really successful working relationship.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
You know, definitely well here.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
And I want I want to bring up a story
that you and I talked about last year actually about
one of your colleagues you were working with, and the
the the challenge that I want to see, as I said,
the stage for this conversation is that you know, some
people are more proactive in speaking their minds than others,
and some people don't know how to ask for help.
(16:20):
And so again, like you said, you know, it's understanding
yourself and how that and how I have another whole
other podcast called Intelligent Human Leadership Podcast, but I would
know yourself to lead yourself and your teams and and
and so it's understanding that and then understanding I love
this this voice five voices framework I use in the
in my coaching. But nonetheless it's finding out that understanding
(16:43):
of who you are and what is it like to
be on the other side of you. So some people
don't want to ask questions, so that they don't want
to be seen as incompetent or feeling like they're going
to mess mess up. In reality, they're actually undermining their
their impact because of that's how they naturally show up.
Just always show that naturally. But if they understand this
like how I show up, and then I say, okay,
(17:04):
but I would be benefiting from somebody helping me, and
I want to just all this is to lead in Joe,
because you had an experience where you had a colleague
you were helping, right, And I'll let you share the story.
You know what what happened there, you had a colleague,
and you just share a little bit about like as
a program manager, as a leader, you know what you've seen.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yeah, I think, I mean, I guess the other thing
is is that we all have that little bit of
imposter syndrome, don't we around whether we're doing our job
as well and whether somebody else would be doing it better.
And certainly, you know, I've had plenty of people that
I've worked with and me myself, we were the same,
(17:46):
and I think that sometimes it's sometimes sometimes it's about
modeling and some of that behavior. So I mean, I'm
perfectly happy within the workplace, to ask the daftist, stupidest question,
to admit I don't know something, to confess to a mistake,
to just say something and then five years later say
(18:06):
well I've changed my view completely and just be very
real and honest. And so I don't know whether the
story I was telling you was about somebody where we
were kind of enabled them to make a mistake.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
So yeah, So she had a piece of work to do,
and it was something that I'd passed over to her
where I'd been kind of managing the project for some
time myself. So obviously I had my own strong views
of over whether I knew about what to do.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
But you know, she was competent and it was for
her to run that project.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
And so she came and spoke to me about it
and was talking about how she thought she might approach it,
and there was just one bit of it that I thought, Oh,
that's going to go down so badly if you try
and do it that way.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
The organization you're working with was a charity. We were
in local government.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
It was a charity she was working with, and I thought,
I can tell you now what their response is going
to be. That's just that's just isn't gonna isn't going
to work. But I think the hardest thing to do
as a manager. And I'm not saying I get this
right all of the time.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I get this right. It's a very small proportion of.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
The time, but it's it's in a in a very
risk managed way. Obviously, you don't want people going off
and dropping complete clangers that are really going to hurt
your business, but in a managed way where you feel
that it's okay if somebody gets that wrong and you
can manage the risk around that, singing that individual to
(19:38):
let them just forge your head perhaps with the path
that you think that's going to go really wrong here,
and and I knew it was going to and consequently
it did. So she came back to me and there
was a whole mess, and we we sort of talked
through how we might be able to fix it, and
she was, you know, quite upset that it had all
(19:59):
gone a bit wrong. But one of the things that
really stuck in my mind is a few years later
she left the organization and we were having her leaving
do and she came up to me and said something like,
do you know that time when you let me make
that mistake, and you knew it was going to go wrong,
didn't you. She said, that was my biggest piece of
(20:20):
learning that I can think of in my career so far.
And it had really impacted her, and she'd really taken
a lot away from it, and she'd really changed how
she was working and kind of how she approached future projects.
And then when you think back, all of the biggest
mistakes that we've all made in our working life are
(20:42):
always the ones that then you reflect on and you
analyze and you try your hardest and never put yourself
in that situation ever again. So you know, we know that,
but I don't think we really were. Only think we're
very good at seeing mistakes is the massive learning opportunity
they are. And we're certainly not always very good at
letting people around us go with something and make those
(21:07):
mistakes when it's silly, isn't it really, Because that's the
most valuable thing that anybody could do, rather than you
just telling them how to do it.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
But exactly, it must.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Be really hard when you own and run your own business,
because that's your livelihood, and you know it's it's it's
very it's even more difficult to kind of pass that
that trust on to let somebody do it.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Their own way.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
No, I think that's that's that's that's what you're you're
transitioning from being it yourself and you have I mean,
part of leadership and growing is delegation and being able
to allow other people to that's I mean, you have
to be to me, to be a successful leader and manager,
you need to be able to delegate in how do
you delegate? What does that look like? And most of
(21:53):
the time, like you're saying, Joe, they're not. They will
never do it a one hundred percent like you. You know,
they'll they'll get it maybe eighty percent or you know,
seventy five eighty five percent, they'll get hopefully most of
the way there.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
You know, we also assume we're right as well work.
You know, we assume we're right.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
And the times when I've let people like I had
somebody just last year they wanted to run this project.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
It was nothing to do with me. Just let her
run with it. And when you looked.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
At the outcomes that she got from that project and
what she achieved with it, it was it was around
the sexual health of older people. It was a brilliant project,
but she did it very differently to how I would
have done it and came out with different outcomes from
it than I think I would have got. And then
I just stepped back and looked at it and think, actually,
(22:47):
she's done that way better than me. And if I'd
just stuck my nose in and tried to steer that
a bit more, we would have never we would have
never got that. And it is it's tricky when people
are like different personalities to you. I find that people
with similar personalities probably go about things the same way
to me. And when somebody is like a completely different personality,
(23:08):
they're the ones that always surprise me with a proper
gem because they've just done something really.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Different than I would have.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
And but yeah, it's really hard to kind of sit
on your hands and bite your tongue and just like
let somebody.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
But it's worth it in the end, it's worth it.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Well. I love that you brought that up that particular angle,
because sometimes we in organizations and I love you know, listen,
in the private sector that I've been and even in
the evening some nonprofits, I would say too, Actually, you
you have a tendency to surround yourself with people like
you said, like minded people your personality wise, and that's comfortable,
(23:49):
but but there's maybe limited growth there because what you're
saying is we're all it's kind of kind of group think,
like we all kind of think that they.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yeah, exactly right, yeah, exactly exactly. We literally had it
at work celebrating people's birthdays recently and realized like there
was a massive chunk of the team that are all Taurus.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Hold on a minute, what's going on here?
Speaker 2 (24:09):
And we've got a bias towards a certain horoscope. But
I do think that the more you you know, those
kind of like cheesy team building exercises that we've all
done plenty of times in our career to sort of
see what personality style you are and what personality style
the people are around you are. I think that as
(24:31):
a leader, you have to really understand that well, you
need to know what you're really good at, but equally
what you're not. So like, I know, I always come
out as like a pragmatist and active person, like good
at making decisions, but my weakness is is that sometimes
I don't slow down enough to allow the more creative
(24:54):
people in my team to think something through mullet over
and then come up with their gems of an idea.
But at least I know that, so then it's like,
it's good to force yourself to slow down and force
yourself to do the opposite. That's your bit of weakness,
and then that means that then as a as a
broader team, you're you're stronger. So I think if you don't,
(25:17):
you know, you have to do those cheesy little exercises like.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Real, I'll challenge you so cheesy.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Oh it is, it is, it completely is, But they're
really helpful.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
You know, there's just what you're saying, Joe, No, it's
so so number one, you have to learn this because
it doesn't it's not something that we just get. I've
never seen anybody just get it. It's something that has learned.
And I love what you said because I love working
with create I'm not creative in my five voices frame,
(25:50):
where creative is my second voice, connector is my first voice.
But what I recognize was to use this example, like
you said creatives. I love creatives because they are so innovative.
It can consider so many different possibilities, but oftentimes they
need help and implementation, like the actual getting into the
details like right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Now, guys, let's now, we need to put this into
a plan and we need to get this actually we
need to move you on. Yeah, right, right exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
But if if, if we don't understand that about each other,
you know, there's there's gonna be frustration, right because you're
like they're feeling stretched because they can't express their their
creativities and their thoughts and they feel like it has
to be fully formed and it's got to be perfect
before I present it, like no, and and and vice versa.
If we're we're we're on the other side you like
(26:38):
maybe you or me, Joe, we're pushing them too fast
and sense I'm not appreciating the innovation and the things
that they're they're presenting, like hey, do you think about this?
Like no, I really didn't, and so understanding and valuing
the different voices if you.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Will, Yeah, And I think that I think the older
I get, the more I'm able to do that. And
I think some times, like when I first started out
as a manager, I don't think I was really understanding
why I don't real it wasn't just like me because surely.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
I'm doing it the right way.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
And now it's like, WHOA, Well, I've got my own strengths,
but then all these other people have got their own strengths,
and really, unless we can bring that all together, is
the only way that we're going to really you know,
benefit the whatever business it is that we're we're doing
at that time.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah, whatever, whatever project whatever. The other thing you mentioned
earlier in the podcast I really liked is that I
like to say, we all have tendencies or triggers Joe,
that are always going to be a part of us.
But how we express them and our behaviors if we're aware,
you know, and then make shifts and then making and
(27:49):
then ultimately get our desired outcome For me Joe as
an example is I'm a very positive as you know,
can do overly optimistic maybe, uh, And I had I
had to learn this, Joe, I had to learn this
about myself. Of like, I would do that, and I
would talk to team members and I said, yes, we
(28:10):
can do this, right, we're gonna go after this and
until and they would go along and say yes, Joe,
until until I empowered them, and then they were struggling
to succeed. And then I said, look, you guys need
I want to empower you to say, I'll tell you
I'm overly optimistic. You need to tell me, David, this
is not I'm a concern I have concerns or risks.
I feel like we're taking too much on And so
(28:32):
I empowered them to speak and I think as leaders
Joe for example, of you, you know, giving them a
safe space to come and talk with you and share
with you. Do they feel like they can or do
they feel like, oh, I just got to keep it
and figure it out, keep it to myself.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, let's hope they all feel like they can. But
you never you never know, do you really? I Mean
one of the things that we I find really useful
is that whole business planning cycle and so getting the
whole team together once a year and just re just
re examining what is it we're trying to do. What
are the big deals for us, what are the big
(29:11):
aims that we're trying to change, or what the outcomes
that we're after, And then let's just get all those
ideas on the table and get them all out so
then your creatives can come up with all the wild,
brilliant ones, and the pragmatists like me can put all
the boring tasks that have to be done in and
then just putting that all together, and then we just
(29:33):
use that really common kind of must shoulds, coulds, won't
and we just classify everything and we look at it like,
all of these tasks look really important, they all look
really great, that we've got a lot of enthusiasm. If
we had all the time in the world, we do
them more. But which of them are going to have
the biggest impact on what we're trying to achieve this
year in our business, and those ones and we've got
(29:57):
to pull those ones out, so let's keep all the others,
you know, they could barely be wont now and like
we can go back to them and if we finally've
got those of capacity, we can bring them back again,
or if there's other opportunities about the year, we can.
So you don't have to be stringent about it. But
I think getting all those ideas out, hearing everybody's points
of view and agreeing to kind of like clear direction
(30:19):
as a team that this is what we're this is
what we're about, and then developing that plan I think
helps so much because then everyone's really clear on and
then we'd split it up my quarter and who's doing what,
and then you can do all the like the practical
bits of it.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
But I think it really it means that we've.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
All fed into it. It's not me saying this is
what we're going to do. Everybody's fed into it. Everybody's
got their ideas out, We've you know, tweaked some of them,
developed some of them, and then we've chosen the ones
that really are going to have the biggest impact, and
then those are the ones that we drive forward as
like our priorities, because I do think we've we've.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Waste a lot of time in work.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
I mean, I can oh yeah and go off on
an angle doing something that's really not having an impact,
and I think it's great to have like a plan
to just bring you back to those top top things
that and if you involve your team properly informing those
and everyone's behind like, this is what we're this is
what we're doing, and every all of those personality types
(31:23):
have got a different way that they contribute to that
whole process.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Kind of quite easily.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
So you know, like we do it where you know,
you might have like somebody individually writing something down a
couple of the some people discussing it in a little group,
and it's different ways exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
I think this is where you can even you know,
speaking on my behalf of my company or others that
help come outside of the company organization, if you will,
just because I think sometimes when you're in that you maybe,
like you said, maybe tied to a certain outcome that
you feel like a really important and maybe it maybe
it is, but maybe it isn't. And somebody else comes
(32:03):
in and just looks at all of them laid out
and says, Okay, I'm an objective third party, you know,
and say is this really important? And I think why
I have the business running a podcast shoe and have
people like you, honest, I want people here like here
the outside perspective here, a different resource that they can
tap into from it and see like, well, maybe I
(32:23):
should consider that I benefited so much Joe when we
were talking before we recorded of getting coached, having a
mentor having somebody outside of kind of the menu show
of the day to day and kind of give me
a different perspective and hold a mirror back.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Definitely, definitely, And I think as well that that's probably
especially important when you are running your own business. You know,
like when I was running that charity, I really appreciated
colleagues or the colleagues who were also running similar charities,
and well the managers that I knew out in the
wider voluntary sector, being able to have people that I
(33:00):
could then chat through issues, problems, get a.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Different perspective on it. And I think that.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
If you so, it's fine for me now in my role,
I've got somebody who's line managing me, who I can
use completely to reflect over the work that I'm doing,
to give me that objective view in whereas that's not
always as easy to do when you're you know, some
(33:29):
people are running a business starting off just on their own,
So I think you've got to have somebody to bounce
that off.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
It doesn't matter who it is.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
But I know we've we've had loads of people in
our organization really benefit from mentoring. I've mentored somebody from
a different team who's nothing to do with my area.
And it does mean that you don't get as tied
into the day to day work and business. You're able
(34:00):
to you step a little bit back and you're able
to just hear what they're saying and what they're finding
challenging or what they want to learn and develop and
come in at it from a really outside angle, which
sometimes is difficult to do within within the team because
you get a bit bogged down by the detail, don't
you really?
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Absolutely absolutely, I'm glad to hear that you've you've been
you've been mentored and be a mentor. I feel like
that's a life long journey. I mean, there's always people
actually the left of us that we can help, and
there's there's stuff that I don't know, and I think
that there's there's things I can still learn right and
still develop myself.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Definitely, definitely, I mean, and I think in my earlier
days in my career, I kind of didn't think I
needed anybody.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
I was very self sufficient.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
I just used to crack on do it, you know,
I'd go on training and so it wasn't as if
I wasn't reflecting well. I really didn't see the benefit
of anybody kind of being somebody that I was accountable to,
or somebody to be able to kind of chat that through.
And then I had a really bad manager once and
then realize that maybe this was important. And then I
(35:09):
had another manager who I just really never spoke to
or saw. And yet I saw a colleague of mine
who was also managed by them, and she had lots
of conversations, whereas I was just kind of leaving myself
off on a tangent and realized that there was a
real that person was getting a lot more out of
her than I was. So then when I moved to
(35:30):
my next manager, I thought that I'm changing this. I'm
now going to spend time, you know, and and use
the person chat through issues and problems. And I do
now find it really really useful just somebody, just somebody
bringing in a different perspective and able to just really
(35:51):
gently help you to think kind of differently about it
and whether there was anything else you could have done
in that circumstance or a different way that it could
have been dealt with. And those are the kind of
conversations that then, you know, after work, maybe driving home
or going for a run, and I'll be really mulling
it over and thinking about what she said and what
(36:13):
I can then change or do differently as a result
of that, and I think, yeah, you've got to have
somebody like that. Otherwise it is a very lonely, lonely
place if you haven't.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Well, we're getting close to endo the podcast. Joe, this
has been so fun and enlightening. I hope our audience
that are hearing this, you know, are enjoying and learning that, Hey,
you know what, wherever you are in the world, these
issues that if they don't get resolved and they don't
get addressed, you know, you're living i'd say, diminished life
(36:47):
and an opportunity to live in your fullest uh. And
I would want to encourage you, and I think, Joe,
I'm grateful for you having being on the podcast. I
hope everybody's just getting the energy and the light that
she's bringing here today and just experience Shoe. It's really
awesome having you here.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Oh, no problem. I mean I love to talk. I
could probably talk for another two hours.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Yes, yes, yeah, easy.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Come back. We'll just have to have another episode.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
I've got a lot.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Yeah. No, well you as we're wrapping it up here though,
you know, you covered a lot of different things. But
I always like to give guests an opportunity to kind
of give a parting word of advice or or kind
of a nugget or something that is just meaningful of
all the things that we talked about today. If you
would just say, Okay, leaving this podcast is one thing
I just want you to consider. What would you just
(37:34):
want to share with our listeners as we're wrapping up
the podcast.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
I mean, as I say, I don't feel like I'm
an expert in any of this at all, but I
would say that as I've got older in my career
and more confident, I think the importance of being authentic
and just being you and just trusting who you are
and just going with it and being real. And I
think that that really gets you somewhere and people really
(38:00):
respond to that.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
So just have confidence in who you are.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Yeah, I love that, Joe. And and you're if you're
if you're you know, maybe not clear on that You've
got here me, David Carr here is doing your business.
Happy to have a conversation a deeper die with you
on that. Of course, we love folks subscribing and sharing
the podcast. Uh, leaving your comments, We'll make sure Joe
gets them. Uh so that Joe, maybe you can help
(38:25):
respond to a comment or two that we get into
the podcast. Uh. We appreciate you guys listening, Uh coming
back week after week again. Joe. Thanks for being on
the podcast. Wonderful having you.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
Thank you, Thank you so much, it's.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
A lot of fun. Thanks everybody. The next time, be well,
take care.
All right, Welcome to the Business Roundtable Podcast. I'm David Carr,
your host, founder of Stewart your business bringing people together
to accomplish great things. Today, we have a brand new
guest on the podcast, Joe Brian and Joe. I was
just thinking about this while we were recording. I probably
Joe might be the person I've known the longest on
(00:53):
this podcast. We go way back. We reconnected what was
last year at high school reunion. And I'm super excited
to have you on here, Joe, because not only we're
personal friends, we've known each other for a long time,
but I feel like you have got some great insights
to share to our audience, to our listeners and so on.
(01:14):
Behalf of all of all of us here at the
Business Around People Podcast. Welcome. We're so glad to have
you here.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I've watched a few of you podcasts, so I'm really
really excited to be a part of it.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
It all seems really great.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Thank you, Thank you. Joe is staying up a little
later with us. She's in the UK, so we were
just comparing time zones early before we got recording. So
thanks for staying up a little later with us to
record here. Yeah, jo you have had such a great
background and experience I think coming and sharing on the podcast,
(01:47):
your background with charities, nonprofits, working with local governments, in
transitioning if you will, from you know, into a program
level role into the higher level rule that. I'm super
excited to get into that a little bit and hear
your journey. So before we get into all the weeds,
(02:09):
why don't you walk us through a little bit about
your career journey, where you started, in where you are today,
and just so that folks get to know a little
bit more about Joe Bryan.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yeah, sure, sure.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
I mean you're making it sound much grander than it
actually is. I mean, as a child, I always wanted
to go into sort of counseling. I did a psychology degree,
and I really thought I had a really stringent career path.
And then as it was, that just didn't seem like
the thing for me in the end, and I ended
(02:41):
up getting my first job running a national helpline for
parents of children with special educational needs.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
So it's kind of a legal advice line.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
It was helping people through some really difficult and challenging
circumstances and battles that they had with schools and education system.
So loved that job and then had an opportunity to
work more locally to me, literally up the road running
a charity for people who were caring for loved ones
(03:13):
in an unpaid capacity but potentially for you know, much
longer hours than any of us would do a paid
job for and the impact that that had on people.
So that was that's probably the closest to some of
your clients in terms of almost running a business, because
I was answerable to like a board of directors and
(03:35):
responsible for kind of all the operations and strategic direction
for that charity. So that was a that was a
big job, and yeah, I loved it. I did love it.
But then in the end I moved into local government,
and I think both had its advantages and disadvantages. I
now work in public health, so that's where we're responsible
(03:58):
for improving the health and well being of local people.
I work for my local council, so it's literally I'm
supporting my friends, my neighbors, you know, my family, which
is which is really kind of privileged position to have.
So I'm kind of now sort of in like almost
a very large organization and sort of more like a
(04:21):
middle manager in a very large organization. But you can
so that there's a lot of differences between all those
different kind of settings. Charitable nonprofit sectors very different to
local government, which again is very different to private business.
So yeah, it's been an interesting journey. But I definitely
in my current job, although I work for local government,
(04:43):
I really do still bring and have that passion for
the charitable non profit sector and bring that into my
daily work.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
Really.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So yeah, well, Joe, I mean so I loved hearing
your journey. I know you've said, you know where you originally,
like you mentioned I think before recorded like wanting to
be maybe a counselor. That shifted that modified. Obviously, you
have a care for people. That's what comes through loud
and clear, Joe, is through the nonprofit, being the director
(05:14):
or overseeing that now in this middle management in a
larger organization. But I hear that, lad and clear. Your
care for people is so important to you.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Definitely, and I think that what's interested is although I
never went down the route of being a counselor, what
was great about it is that I did learn some
of the skills that I still now use in everyday
working life, things like just EmPATH empathic active listening skills,
and we do when you were working as a kind
(05:44):
of counselor and client. And I think that they I
use that all the time all the time, kind of
like making relationships with different stakeholders and kind of the
management of the team, And when you're hitting somebody really
difficult and kind of challenging to work with, that's trying
to use that active listening to sort of try and
(06:07):
understand their perspective.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Where are they coming from, what are they what are.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
They trying to get out of this interaction, and what's
it like to be them? And I think that that's
something that I've carried with me from those sort of
counseling days, that if you can kind of understand a
bit about what somebody is trying to do, then I
think it sort of it gets rid of all that
conflict and it breaks all down and then you're like, Okay, right,
(06:35):
I get it. That's what that's where you're coming from.
This is where I'm coming from, Like what have we
got here that's in common? And how can we how
can we proceed? I literally had, oh gosh, a few
weeks ago, there's this somebody that I work with she's
external to my organization bringant, but.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Has a coming from a very different point of view
to me.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Very you could say, we're coming from kind of like
opposite sides of the table sometimes. And I've tried to
understand where she's coming from, and I think I get
it now. I think I understand her perspective and what
she's trying to do with her job and why maybe
sometimes she's quite challenging because that's she sees that as
part of her role that she needs to be because
(07:21):
she's kind of representing people.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Which is great.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
And we had a meeting recently and we were talking
about something that was due to be quite possibly challenging.
So I presented sort of my side of the story
and then said, I know what you're going to say.
You're going to say this, this, and this, and she
was just like, I've trained you well, You've taken.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
The words right out of my mouth. It was great.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
You know, it could have been a difficult relationship, it
could have been a conflict. But I think because I
kind of knew where she was coming from and understood
her perspectives like so well.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
That I knew what she was going to say.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
I knew what the points were going to be, and
then you know, hopefully she appreciated my kind of side
as well, and out of that we came up with
some solutions and some things that we could do together
to make the situation better.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
So yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
The stuff I was originally trained in is being used
literally on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Well that's right. Well, I think that speaks to your
success show in your career and where you're at now
and how you're fitting within an organization. And I feel
like part of the reason I have the Business round
Table podcast is there's some folks that are they don't
undert necessarily aren't opposed to it, but they're not maybe
either one not exposed to this learning and ability that's
(08:39):
out there. So hence the Business Roundtable podcast bringing folks
like you on to share and hoping they open up
the possibility and consider what could be. And then number two,
then they can actually take this and apply it, start
to apply it. And why I hope start as toward
your business was just to this point what you're saying,
whether you don't have to be a full blown counsel,
(09:00):
but you can learn these tools and techniques and become
more self aware, like you're saying, and I like to say,
what is it like to be on the other side
of you? So you the other side of you? What
is she going to have? How she going to respond
to me? And what I'm going to present? That was
really smart and of being aware of you, not on
even put words in her mouth, but just saying, look,
(09:20):
I want to consider what put myself on what you're
you're thinking? Right?
Speaker 3 (09:24):
How yes, definitely? And we don't listen, well do we?
We just don't. It's not a natural thing to listen.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Well, we all have in our head as I'm speaking,
you've probably got in your head like your next question
or your next point, or what you're going to what
you're going to say.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
We don't listen.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Kind of like wholeheartedly a lot of the time to
what somebody else is saying. And and sometimes when we do, gosh,
it really works to sort of build up that trust
and that relationship with whoever it is. And they get
taught it in sales, don't they. But you know, when
you're when you're selling to somebody, you really are supposed
to sort of understand what they've come into your shop
(10:04):
for and what that motivation is.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
So like it. It is used a lot in business.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
If it's done well, You're right, absolutely, Joe. On the
flip side, it's funny. I just talked with a couple
of people in sales this week, and we're talking about
all the bad sales people out there that are just
pitching you. They don't know anything about You're like, don't
you want to buy this? You like, you don't even
know about me, Like, no, what my circumstances are, and
you're just trying to sell push something on me. And
to your point though, Joe, whether if you take the
(10:32):
analogy of selling, meaning like we're trying to convey a message, right,
I'm selling. I'm trying to convey something just like you
and I are talking about our children. They want something right,
They're trying to sell us to buy something or get
something right. If you could do it in a very
thoughtful way and understand where the other person's coming from, you're
more likely to make the sale, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Yeah, definitely, definitely. I also think it really has an
impact sort of in like personal develop and working with
your team. Like I think what I try to do
when I'm sort of directly managing somebody is to try
and really understand, you know, what are they what do
(11:13):
they want out of this job?
Speaker 3 (11:15):
What, what are they trying to do?
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Where's their where's their career going, where do they see
their next step?
Speaker 3 (11:20):
And by really.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Listening and understanding exactly what their current circumstances are and
what they want to.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Get out of it.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
I think that if you can get their goals and
their context through properly listening, I always find that people
then they just they work so much better.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
For you, you know what I mean, like you trying to
understand it.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
And I think sometimes I think sometimes as well within
a team, we often feel like everybody's got to be
developed and developed and developed and move to the next stage,
go on to the next bit of training.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
And I always say to people.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
That I managed that if your career goal is just
you know, I'd quite like to stay exactly where I'm
at and you know, have a good work life balance,
and that's.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
All I'm after.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
That That's okay, you know, that's that's what that's my
work goal. That's what I'm trying to do. I'm just
trying to, you know, keep it at this level and
get a good balance between work and life. And so
you don't have to have a huge kind of career
development plan that we need to work on together. Like,
just honestly, where are you, what, what do you want?
(12:28):
What are you trying to do? And let me do
everything I can to help you to get the right
experiences and the right Yeah, exactly, the right the right
working working life to and then I think people respond
really well to.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
That, right. Yeah. Well, I love I love the questions
you're presenting, Joe. And another reason I wanted to have
you on the podcast is, uh, you know, I'm based
here in California, and I want to hear the universality
that you're saying is that we all, I believe, want
to find purpose and meaning what we're doing, whatever that
is where wherever we're at. Some people are more driven
(13:04):
in a certain way and others are happy with hereat
and it's not I'm not here to make judgment one
way or the other. Is just a matter of do
you find I would just say, I would ask the question,
are you feeling fulfilled and you find peace? Do you
have joy? Are you Are you at a place where
I told you earlier before we start recording bringing a
light into the world. Are you a place of a
place where you can give because you have an abundance.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Yeah, yeah, definitely where you coming from.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
A place of a deaficit, right, Yeah, definitely a definitely.
And I think that you know, we've all I've had
times in in jobs where I remember one job and
I had had a really bad manager and it really
impacted me. And I remember sitting in my car having
a little cry before I went into work in the
morning and thinking, that's not what you want. And you
(13:50):
don't want anybody within your team to be to feel
like that about work.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
You want them to have some energy and enthusiasm and to.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Want to be there, to be enjoying what they're doing,
getting something out of it for themselves, and feeling as
if it's if it's worthwhile. And I think as managers
and that's our role is to make sure that people
really are getting what they what they need and then
that will give us what we need as a just
a natural give back.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Really yeah, well, I I think relationships thrive best when
it's mutually beneficial. It's not it's not transactional, it's not
I get this. I mean, there are the more that
we can make it mutually beneficial and looking after each
other's highest and best good. That's where I come from.
(14:38):
And I believe you did Joe as well. And I
really like and like the questions you're asking are you're
being very curious, You're being in a way of like
how can they help you? I think sometimes we don't
do that. I was literally talking about a client today
and they were saying, like, well, we we met with
some we met with our employees, and we asked them
did they have any any problems or any challenges or
(14:58):
no you and our natural tendency is to say no,
we're fine, Yeah, no, everything's okay. And so instead unless
you ask curious and probing questions like you just did, Joe,
I feel like, yeah, it's a missed opportunity.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yeah, Like in that situation, you could be asking, you know,
what could be one thing that could be different about
the workplace that would mean that you would enjoy your
job more?
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Perhaps, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I think they don't need to be they need to
be tricky questions, do they? But people do often tell
us what they think you want to hear. So I
think there has to be a way of sort of
establishing that authenticity and honesty and if you can get
that with somebody where you're really operating at that level
(15:47):
and just you're saying what you think, they're saying what
they think, and then it's a really open conversation. Then
I think you've got a really successful working relationship.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
You know, definitely well here.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
And I want I want to bring up a story
that you and I talked about last year actually about
one of your colleagues you were working with, and the
the the challenge that I want to see, as I said,
the stage for this conversation is that you know, some
people are more proactive in speaking their minds than others,
and some people don't know how to ask for help.
(16:20):
And so again, like you said, you know, it's understanding
yourself and how that and how I have another whole
other podcast called Intelligent Human Leadership Podcast, but I would
know yourself to lead yourself and your teams and and
and so it's understanding that and then understanding I love
this this voice five voices framework I use in the
in my coaching. But nonetheless it's finding out that understanding
(16:43):
of who you are and what is it like to
be on the other side of you. So some people
don't want to ask questions, so that they don't want
to be seen as incompetent or feeling like they're going
to mess mess up. In reality, they're actually undermining their
their impact because of that's how they naturally show up.
Just always show that naturally. But if they understand this
like how I show up, and then I say, okay,
(17:04):
but I would be benefiting from somebody helping me, and
I want to just all this is to lead in Joe,
because you had an experience where you had a colleague
you were helping, right, And I'll let you share the story.
You know what what happened there, you had a colleague,
and you just share a little bit about like as
a program manager, as a leader, you know what you've seen.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yeah, I think, I mean, I guess the other thing
is is that we all have that little bit of
imposter syndrome, don't we around whether we're doing our job
as well and whether somebody else would be doing it better.
And certainly, you know, I've had plenty of people that
I've worked with and me myself, we were the same,
(17:46):
and I think that sometimes it's sometimes sometimes it's about
modeling and some of that behavior. So I mean, I'm
perfectly happy within the workplace, to ask the daftist, stupidest question,
to admit I don't know something, to confess to a mistake,
to just say something and then five years later say
(18:06):
well I've changed my view completely and just be very
real and honest. And so I don't know whether the
story I was telling you was about somebody where we
were kind of enabled them to make a mistake.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
So yeah, So she had a piece of work to do,
and it was something that I'd passed over to her
where I'd been kind of managing the project for some
time myself. So obviously I had my own strong views
of over whether I knew about what to do.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
But you know, she was competent and it was for
her to run that project.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
And so she came and spoke to me about it
and was talking about how she thought she might approach it,
and there was just one bit of it that I thought, Oh,
that's going to go down so badly if you try
and do it that way.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
The organization you're working with was a charity. We were
in local government.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
It was a charity she was working with, and I thought,
I can tell you now what their response is going
to be. That's just that's just isn't gonna isn't going
to work. But I think the hardest thing to do
as a manager. And I'm not saying I get this
right all of the time.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I get this right. It's a very small proportion of.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
The time, but it's it's in a in a very
risk managed way. Obviously, you don't want people going off
and dropping complete clangers that are really going to hurt
your business, but in a managed way where you feel
that it's okay if somebody gets that wrong and you
can manage the risk around that, singing that individual to
(19:38):
let them just forge your head perhaps with the path
that you think that's going to go really wrong here,
and and I knew it was going to and consequently
it did. So she came back to me and there
was a whole mess, and we we sort of talked
through how we might be able to fix it, and
she was, you know, quite upset that it had all
(19:59):
gone a bit wrong. But one of the things that
really stuck in my mind is a few years later
she left the organization and we were having her leaving
do and she came up to me and said something like,
do you know that time when you let me make
that mistake, and you knew it was going to go wrong,
didn't you. She said, that was my biggest piece of
(20:20):
learning that I can think of in my career so far.
And it had really impacted her, and she'd really taken
a lot away from it, and she'd really changed how
she was working and kind of how she approached future projects.
And then when you think back, all of the biggest
mistakes that we've all made in our working life are
(20:42):
always the ones that then you reflect on and you
analyze and you try your hardest and never put yourself
in that situation ever again. So you know, we know that,
but I don't think we really were. Only think we're
very good at seeing mistakes is the massive learning opportunity
they are. And we're certainly not always very good at
letting people around us go with something and make those
(21:07):
mistakes when it's silly, isn't it really, Because that's the
most valuable thing that anybody could do, rather than you
just telling them how to do it.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
But exactly, it must.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Be really hard when you own and run your own business,
because that's your livelihood, and you know it's it's it's
very it's even more difficult to kind of pass that
that trust on to let somebody do it.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Their own way.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
No, I think that's that's that's that's what you're you're
transitioning from being it yourself and you have I mean,
part of leadership and growing is delegation and being able
to allow other people to that's I mean, you have
to be to me, to be a successful leader and manager,
you need to be able to delegate in how do
you delegate? What does that look like? And most of
(21:53):
the time, like you're saying, Joe, they're not. They will
never do it a one hundred percent like you. You know,
they'll they'll get it maybe eighty percent or you know,
seventy five eighty five percent, they'll get hopefully most of
the way there.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
You know, we also assume we're right as well work.
You know, we assume we're right.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
And the times when I've let people like I had
somebody just last year they wanted to run this project.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
It was nothing to do with me. Just let her
run with it. And when you looked.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
At the outcomes that she got from that project and
what she achieved with it, it was it was around
the sexual health of older people. It was a brilliant project,
but she did it very differently to how I would
have done it and came out with different outcomes from
it than I think I would have got. And then
I just stepped back and looked at it and think, actually,
(22:47):
she's done that way better than me. And if I'd
just stuck my nose in and tried to steer that
a bit more, we would have never we would have
never got that. And it is it's tricky when people
are like different personalities to you. I find that people
with similar personalities probably go about things the same way
to me. And when somebody is like a completely different personality,
(23:08):
they're the ones that always surprise me with a proper
gem because they've just done something really.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Different than I would have.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
And but yeah, it's really hard to kind of sit
on your hands and bite your tongue and just like
let somebody.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
But it's worth it in the end, it's worth it.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Well. I love that you brought that up that particular angle,
because sometimes we in organizations and I love you know, listen,
in the private sector that I've been and even in
the evening some nonprofits, I would say too, Actually, you
you have a tendency to surround yourself with people like
you said, like minded people your personality wise, and that's comfortable,
(23:49):
but but there's maybe limited growth there because what you're
saying is we're all it's kind of kind of group think,
like we all kind of think that they.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Yeah, exactly right, yeah, exactly exactly. We literally had it
at work celebrating people's birthdays recently and realized like there
was a massive chunk of the team that are all Taurus.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Hold on a minute, what's going on here?
Speaker 2 (24:09):
And we've got a bias towards a certain horoscope. But
I do think that the more you you know, those
kind of like cheesy team building exercises that we've all
done plenty of times in our career to sort of
see what personality style you are and what personality style
the people are around you are. I think that as
(24:31):
a leader, you have to really understand that well, you
need to know what you're really good at, but equally
what you're not. So like, I know, I always come
out as like a pragmatist and active person, like good
at making decisions, but my weakness is is that sometimes
I don't slow down enough to allow the more creative
(24:54):
people in my team to think something through mullet over
and then come up with their gems of an idea.
But at least I know that, so then it's like,
it's good to force yourself to slow down and force
yourself to do the opposite. That's your bit of weakness,
and then that means that then as a as a
broader team, you're you're stronger. So I think if you don't,
(25:17):
you know, you have to do those cheesy little exercises like.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Real, I'll challenge you so cheesy.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Oh it is, it is, it completely is, But they're
really helpful.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
You know, there's just what you're saying, Joe, No, it's
so so number one, you have to learn this because
it doesn't it's not something that we just get. I've
never seen anybody just get it. It's something that has learned.
And I love what you said because I love working
with create I'm not creative in my five voices frame,
(25:50):
where creative is my second voice, connector is my first voice.
But what I recognize was to use this example, like
you said creatives. I love creatives because they are so innovative.
It can consider so many different possibilities, but oftentimes they
need help and implementation, like the actual getting into the
details like right, yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Now, guys, let's now, we need to put this into
a plan and we need to get this actually we
need to move you on. Yeah, right, right exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
But if if, if we don't understand that about each other,
you know, there's there's gonna be frustration, right because you're
like they're feeling stretched because they can't express their their
creativities and their thoughts and they feel like it has
to be fully formed and it's got to be perfect
before I present it, like no, and and and vice versa.
If we're we're we're on the other side you like
(26:38):
maybe you or me, Joe, we're pushing them too fast
and sense I'm not appreciating the innovation and the things
that they're they're presenting, like hey, do you think about this?
Like no, I really didn't, and so understanding and valuing
the different voices if you.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Will, Yeah, And I think that I think the older
I get, the more I'm able to do that. And
I think some times, like when I first started out
as a manager, I don't think I was really understanding
why I don't real it wasn't just like me because surely.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
I'm doing it the right way.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
And now it's like, WHOA, Well, I've got my own strengths,
but then all these other people have got their own strengths,
and really, unless we can bring that all together, is
the only way that we're going to really you know,
benefit the whatever business it is that we're we're doing
at that time.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah, whatever, whatever project whatever. The other thing you mentioned
earlier in the podcast I really liked is that I
like to say, we all have tendencies or triggers Joe,
that are always going to be a part of us.
But how we express them and our behaviors if we're aware,
you know, and then make shifts and then making and
(27:49):
then ultimately get our desired outcome For me Joe as
an example is I'm a very positive as you know,
can do overly optimistic maybe, uh, And I had I
had to learn this, Joe, I had to learn this
about myself. Of like, I would do that, and I
would talk to team members and I said, yes, we
(28:10):
can do this, right, we're gonna go after this and
until and they would go along and say yes, Joe,
until until I empowered them, and then they were struggling
to succeed. And then I said, look, you guys need
I want to empower you to say, I'll tell you
I'm overly optimistic. You need to tell me, David, this
is not I'm a concern I have concerns or risks.
I feel like we're taking too much on And so
(28:32):
I empowered them to speak and I think as leaders
Joe for example, of you, you know, giving them a
safe space to come and talk with you and share
with you. Do they feel like they can or do
they feel like, oh, I just got to keep it
and figure it out, keep it to myself.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Yeah, let's hope they all feel like they can. But
you never you never know, do you really? I Mean
one of the things that we I find really useful
is that whole business planning cycle and so getting the
whole team together once a year and just re just
re examining what is it we're trying to do. What
are the big deals for us, what are the big
(29:11):
aims that we're trying to change, or what the outcomes
that we're after, And then let's just get all those
ideas on the table and get them all out so
then your creatives can come up with all the wild,
brilliant ones, and the pragmatists like me can put all
the boring tasks that have to be done in and
then just putting that all together, and then we just
(29:33):
use that really common kind of must shoulds, coulds, won't
and we just classify everything and we look at it like,
all of these tasks look really important, they all look
really great, that we've got a lot of enthusiasm. If
we had all the time in the world, we do
them more. But which of them are going to have
the biggest impact on what we're trying to achieve this
year in our business, and those ones and we've got
(29:57):
to pull those ones out, so let's keep all the others,
you know, they could barely be wont now and like
we can go back to them and if we finally've
got those of capacity, we can bring them back again,
or if there's other opportunities about the year, we can.
So you don't have to be stringent about it. But
I think getting all those ideas out, hearing everybody's points
of view and agreeing to kind of like clear direction
(30:19):
as a team that this is what we're this is
what we're about, and then developing that plan I think
helps so much because then everyone's really clear on and
then we'd split it up my quarter and who's doing what,
and then you can do all the like the practical
bits of it.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
But I think it really it means that we've.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
All fed into it. It's not me saying this is
what we're going to do. Everybody's fed into it. Everybody's
got their ideas out, We've you know, tweaked some of them,
developed some of them, and then we've chosen the ones
that really are going to have the biggest impact, and
then those are the ones that we drive forward as
like our priorities, because I do think we've we've.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Waste a lot of time in work.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
I mean, I can oh yeah and go off on
an angle doing something that's really not having an impact,
and I think it's great to have like a plan
to just bring you back to those top top things
that and if you involve your team properly informing those
and everyone's behind like, this is what we're this is
what we're doing, and every all of those personality types
(31:23):
have got a different way that they contribute to that
whole process.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Kind of quite easily.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
So you know, like we do it where you know,
you might have like somebody individually writing something down a
couple of the some people discussing it in a little group,
and it's different ways exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
I think this is where you can even you know,
speaking on my behalf of my company or others that
help come outside of the company organization, if you will,
just because I think sometimes when you're in that you maybe,
like you said, maybe tied to a certain outcome that
you feel like a really important and maybe it maybe
it is, but maybe it isn't. And somebody else comes
(32:03):
in and just looks at all of them laid out
and says, Okay, I'm an objective third party, you know,
and say is this really important? And I think why
I have the business running a podcast shoe and have
people like you, honest, I want people here like here
the outside perspective here, a different resource that they can
tap into from it and see like, well, maybe I
(32:23):
should consider that I benefited so much Joe when we
were talking before we recorded of getting coached, having a
mentor having somebody outside of kind of the menu show
of the day to day and kind of give me
a different perspective and hold a mirror back.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Definitely, definitely, And I think as well that that's probably
especially important when you are running your own business. You know,
like when I was running that charity, I really appreciated
colleagues or the colleagues who were also running similar charities,
and well the managers that I knew out in the
wider voluntary sector, being able to have people that I
(33:00):
could then chat through issues, problems, get a.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Different perspective on it. And I think that.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
If you so, it's fine for me now in my role,
I've got somebody who's line managing me, who I can
use completely to reflect over the work that I'm doing,
to give me that objective view in whereas that's not
always as easy to do when you're you know, some
(33:29):
people are running a business starting off just on their own,
So I think you've got to have somebody to bounce
that off.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
It doesn't matter who it is.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
But I know we've we've had loads of people in
our organization really benefit from mentoring. I've mentored somebody from
a different team who's nothing to do with my area.
And it does mean that you don't get as tied
into the day to day work and business. You're able
(34:00):
to you step a little bit back and you're able
to just hear what they're saying and what they're finding
challenging or what they want to learn and develop and
come in at it from a really outside angle, which
sometimes is difficult to do within within the team because
you get a bit bogged down by the detail, don't
you really?
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Absolutely absolutely, I'm glad to hear that you've you've been
you've been mentored and be a mentor. I feel like
that's a life long journey. I mean, there's always people
actually the left of us that we can help, and
there's there's stuff that I don't know, and I think
that there's there's things I can still learn right and
still develop myself.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Definitely, definitely, I mean, and I think in my earlier
days in my career, I kind of didn't think I
needed anybody.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
I was very self sufficient.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
I just used to crack on do it, you know,
I'd go on training and so it wasn't as if
I wasn't reflecting well. I really didn't see the benefit
of anybody kind of being somebody that I was accountable to,
or somebody to be able to kind of chat that through.
And then I had a really bad manager once and
then realize that maybe this was important. And then I
(35:09):
had another manager who I just really never spoke to
or saw. And yet I saw a colleague of mine
who was also managed by them, and she had lots
of conversations, whereas I was just kind of leaving myself
off on a tangent and realized that there was a
real that person was getting a lot more out of
her than I was. So then when I moved to
(35:30):
my next manager, I thought that I'm changing this. I'm
now going to spend time, you know, and and use
the person chat through issues and problems. And I do
now find it really really useful just somebody, just somebody
bringing in a different perspective and able to just really
(35:51):
gently help you to think kind of differently about it
and whether there was anything else you could have done
in that circumstance or a different way that it could
have been dealt with. And those are the kind of
conversations that then, you know, after work, maybe driving home
or going for a run, and I'll be really mulling
it over and thinking about what she said and what
(36:13):
I can then change or do differently as a result
of that, and I think, yeah, you've got to have
somebody like that. Otherwise it is a very lonely, lonely
place if you haven't.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Well, we're getting close to endo the podcast. Joe, this
has been so fun and enlightening. I hope our audience
that are hearing this, you know, are enjoying and learning that, Hey,
you know what, wherever you are in the world, these
issues that if they don't get resolved and they don't
get addressed, you know, you're living i'd say, diminished life
(36:47):
and an opportunity to live in your fullest uh. And
I would want to encourage you, and I think, Joe,
I'm grateful for you having being on the podcast. I
hope everybody's just getting the energy and the light that
she's bringing here today and just experience Shoe. It's really
awesome having you here.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Oh, no problem. I mean I love to talk. I
could probably talk for another two hours.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
Yes, yes, yeah, easy.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Come back. We'll just have to have another episode.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
I've got a lot.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Yeah. No, well you as we're wrapping it up here though,
you know, you covered a lot of different things. But
I always like to give guests an opportunity to kind
of give a parting word of advice or or kind
of a nugget or something that is just meaningful of
all the things that we talked about today. If you
would just say, Okay, leaving this podcast is one thing
I just want you to consider. What would you just
(37:34):
want to share with our listeners as we're wrapping up
the podcast.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
I mean, as I say, I don't feel like I'm
an expert in any of this at all, but I
would say that as I've got older in my career
and more confident, I think the importance of being authentic
and just being you and just trusting who you are
and just going with it and being real. And I
think that that really gets you somewhere and people really
(38:00):
respond to that.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
So just have confidence in who you are.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Yeah, I love that, Joe. And and you're if you're
if you're you know, maybe not clear on that You've
got here me, David Carr here is doing your business.
Happy to have a conversation a deeper die with you
on that. Of course, we love folks subscribing and sharing
the podcast. Uh, leaving your comments, We'll make sure Joe
gets them. Uh so that Joe, maybe you can help
(38:25):
respond to a comment or two that we get into
the podcast. Uh. We appreciate you guys listening, Uh coming
back week after week again. Joe. Thanks for being on
the podcast. Wonderful having you.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
Thank you, Thank you so much, it's.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
A lot of fun. Thanks everybody. The next time, be well,
take care.
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