September 10, 2025 • 46 mins
Most sales teams aren’t failing because of effort—they’re failing because of outdated systems, poor hiring, and broken leadership. In this episode of the Business Roundtable Podcast, host David W. Carr talks with Steve Heroux, bestselling author, keynote speaker, and founder of The Sales Collective. Known as The Sales Contrarian, Steve shares why old-school tactics don’t work, and what it really takes to build a high-performing, respected sales organization. You’ll discover:
Connect with Steve Heroux:
Website: https://www.thesalescollective.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steveheroux1
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/business-roundtable--6049255/support.
Watch more episodes on YouTube and subscribe here:
https://www.youtube.com/@steward_your_business
Connect with Steward Your Business:
Website: https://stewardyourbusiness.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidwcarr
- Why one-size-fits-all sales training is broken and what to do instead
- How poor hiring decisions cost companies over $1.3M per bad sales hire
- Why only 14% of companies have a documented sales playbook—and what that means for you
- How to use the Sales DNA Test to hire and coach with precision
- Why respect, authenticity, and leadership—not manipulation—create sustainable revenue growth
Connect with Steve Heroux:
Website: https://www.thesalescollective.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steveheroux1
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/business-roundtable--6049255/support.
Watch more episodes on YouTube and subscribe here:
https://www.youtube.com/@steward_your_business
Connect with Steward Your Business:
Website: https://stewardyourbusiness.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidwcarr
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
All right, welcome back to the Business Around Table podcast.
This week we have another great guest. My name is
David Carr, your host and founder of Stewart Your Business.
We have Steve Haru here on the podcast. He is
going to really dive into how to fix your sales
team before it sinks you really sharing the contrarian advantage.
So welcome to the podcast, Steve. Glad to have you here.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Thanks David, thanks for being on man appreciate Yeah, I
know you can time out from being a quarterback, so thanks.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, there you go. I do get mixed up with
that occasionally, so you know, now, it's great to have
you here. I'm excited to kind of get into really
get into a kind of a no fluff conversation, if
you what's all going wrong in most small to mid
size sales teams, Steve, where you have such a great
experience and really unpacking some ways that companies are hiring wrong,
(01:22):
leading poorly losing deals and really how to fix that
and and and they're and their sales going forward. And
so before we do that, I always like to have
our new guests, particularly because we do have returning guests.
But since you're brand new to our audience joining us.
You have founded the Sales Collective, you are a best
selling author, you're a keynote speaker, you have created the
(01:46):
sales DNA test, among other things. And so tell us
a little bit about your journey in becoming the sale contrarian.
And so, you know, why is that you know relevant
to our listeners? Take us back a little and I'll
love to hear your journey.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Sure thing, Hey, everybody, Steve Pharu be nice to meet y'all.
If you can see it great, if you can hear
it great. But yes, I'm probably the last person you'd
ever think right would become, you know, a keynote speaker,
right in doing what I do. And I grew up
(02:22):
pretty much not saying a word. I mean the first
you know, seventeen years of my life. I mean, I
you know, Mimes thought I was quiet, so to say
I was shy would be an understatement. But I ended
up I'm from Boston and ended up getting into a
really expensive business school up there and realized that after
(02:42):
I got my first semester of books that cost me
almost two grand I was about to bankrupt my parents.
So I had to get a job to help pay
for college, and so I was going to do anything.
I answered this job at and they had these poll
tabs and flyers right all over campus everything. It just said,
you know, part time job, ten dollars an hour and
(03:04):
a phone number, you know, and that was it. And
I call the number. I'm like, what is this job
you guys have plastered.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
All over campus.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
He goes, it's sales and I said, so would I
need to like talk to anybody? Or yeah, you have
to talk to what's wrong with you? Don't you have
a desk job or something or data entry? And she's
like no. I said, well, what would I be selling?
(03:34):
She goes, we'll let you know when you get down here.
So I went to and I got hired. I obviously
met their qualifications of you know, breathing and bleeding. So
I went back and told my parents and my parents,
by the way, Arthur Castanzas from Seinfeldt sob oh, yeah,
(03:56):
that's kind of how I ended up like this. But
so my dad goes out to go Stevie. I'm like, great, dad,
I got the job. That's awesome. What are you gonna
be doing? And I said, well, I think I'm gonna
sell knives door to door and people on a call it.
You know, podcasts are laughing now because it's everybody knows
(04:17):
cutco knives, and so I have to you know, let
you know, my dad was very supportive and uplifting and
an amazing dad, very nurturing and you know, so he
he turns to me and he goes, are you a moron?
Save the explotive?
Speaker 1 (04:36):
You get it?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I go what he goes, Stevie, don't be a schmuck.
You're gonna you're gonna sell knives door to do it.
You don't even talk. Who are you gonna sell knives to?
We'll be stupid. Get a real job. I don't want
to hear another word about this. I go, fine, hey, ma,
can I have one hundred and fifty bucks for this
(04:59):
night thing? So to pay for the job. So my
mom gives me the money and that was freshman year
of college. By senior year, I was number one in
the country selling cutcoa knives. So you know, quite the transformation,
(05:20):
I guess.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yeah, going from your dad saying don't do it at all,
I think being number one in the country.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Ye, So yeah. I stayed with them for a few
years after college, running sales teams and then went into
the insurance industry, which many of you know, the insurance
company with the duck. So it's funny. I went to
this job there and the guy looked at my resume
and he goes, he goes, you made money selling cutco knives. Yes, sir,
(05:51):
quite a lot of it. He goes, you can do
a flock And I said, I don't even know what
what is a flock? Anyway, he goes, doesn't matter. When
can you start? So that was my interview with that.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
I spent thirteen years at AFLAC and somehow in the
middle of my career did slightly better than sixty thousand agents.
So wow, that's my background. So now again I get
to teach and coach and train and speak and write
and do all these things to help people, you know,
do what I did. And I pretty much did the
polar opposite of everything I was ever taught ever, and
(06:30):
so that hence the title the sales Contrarian and the
books doing so well and all of those things. And
so that's how I got started.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Wow. Well, I mean, and this is society to dive into,
because you know, I think a lot of people almost
sometimes say sales is you know, I know you have
the sales is is a dirty word. It's like, I
feel dirty being sales?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Is that a plant? Or did you actually say that?
So yeah, go ahead, I don't even know that they're listening.
So The Sales Contrarian's my latest book. My first book
is called Sales is not a dirty word. What's funny
you said that? This is two weeks ago. I had
to get a new MX card and I'm talking to
(07:16):
the lady on AMEX and she goes, wait a second,
I know you. I'm like, what, how do you know?
What do you mean? She goes, I have your book.
I'm like, the sales Contrarian. She goes, no, no, no, no,
you wrote sales is not a dirty word, right I
go yeah. She goes, yeah, I love it. I can't
(07:39):
even like bought it during the pandemic, like it changed
my whole life. And you know, I'm like, wow, well thanks,
I was always looking for the one person who bought it,
so really, you know, she laughs.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Whatever, So it's.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Funny you say that, But that is the idea behind
why I do what I do is to undo right
this disastrous reputation that salespeople haven't Another author who I
aspire to be, you know, one one thousandth of right,
Daniel Pink and I cite Daniel in my new book.
But Daniel cites a study in his book called to
(08:14):
Sell is Human?
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Right, What a surprise.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
And there's a study that they cite where they ask
to people, thousands and thousands of people, what's the first
word that comes to mind when you hear the word
salesperson or sales Right, So y'all can look up the
word cloud, but it's not endearing, Okay, the word will
say and the number one answer was pushy. Then you
(08:38):
have things like yuck, ug, aggressive, smarmy. Right, there's all
these words, and if anyone listening doesn't already know the
reputation salespeople have, this will solidify it. The three least
trusted professions on this planet salespeople, lawyers, politicians. What a crew?
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Mm.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
So if you keep doing this the old school feel
felt found and you know magic selling systems right from
the sixties. You gotta say this and do that, do
the upfront contract. Like you're causing people to resist even more,
(09:23):
like you're in reinforcing the trauma right they've been through
in every selling experience they've ever had, and you do
the same thing that's always been done to them. You
ain't selling stuff. So trying to undo all of these
bad behaviors is pretty much what I work on every day.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Well, it's so needed, you know, and unfortunately it's not
going to go way quickly. But I think I'm glad
you're here, Steve, because you know, I work with business
owners all the time and individuals and helping them. And
even in my own mind, Steve, like turning it around
in a healthy way and in becoming a true professional,
(10:04):
Are you actually helping people and not being a glorified
order taker?
Speaker 2 (10:10):
You know, absolutely, that's what I mean. A lot of
salespeople in the last few years during the pandemic anyway,
obviously thankfully we're much past that now, but it made
a lot of salespeople lazy because their product or service,
or industry or environment or whatever was adversely affected or
(10:35):
right incredibly positively affected right with COVID, and so people
did become order takers because it was much easier to
sell certain things. So now it's time to realize that
maybe all of that success wasn't us as salespeople, and
it was we just had a fire hose when somebody's
(10:55):
house was on fire. And so there's a lot of
salespeople right now don't believe right they are a true
professional like a doctor or a dentist, right or or whatever.
And if you treat it like that, well clearly you're
not going to have great success. So the second people
(11:18):
start treating this like a career and something that is
to be respected, and that's really again, part of my
plight here is to bring respect right back into the
sales profession. And so that's you know, what gets me
up every day.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, well absolutely, And whether you're and I would say
Steve as people are listening to this, whether you're the
business owner or leader organization. You may not be the
full time salesperson, but aren't we in some ways you're
always doing some sort of sales selling.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yeah. I met a gentleman through Vistage. We were talking
about and he had been in Vistage for ten twenty years,
long time, sold this company for three billion dollars. Ket
just met him randomly. He was listening to my business
talk and at the end I was like, man, Mike,
that's pretty amazing what you've built and what you do,
and you know, can I ask what your company was
(12:14):
and he said I ran a sales organization. I'm like, oh,
that's interesting. How so and he said, well, we manufactured pipes.
And I'm like, man, this guy gets it right, because
everyone is selling right. The foreman has to sell shipping
(12:34):
on his or her idea right, the head of accounting,
you know, she's got to sell you know, her new
design of a spreadsheet right to her. So you know,
kids are obviously the best salespeople just never give up.
But there's so much of that in life that we don't,
(12:55):
you know, understand. And another part of what I'm doing,
which I think is really great to share and if
anybody would like to help, that would be awesome. I
have a nonprofit that I called a Million Veteran Mission,
So I'm going to teach a million veterans how to sell,
so we'll all be gifted granted donating. We have so
many great connections already in the military, but our men
(13:16):
and women come back write these heroes to not much,
and many of them want to go into civilian life.
And you know, if I can give back and do
my part, I don't want them like being exposed to
these social media clowns and grifter and frauds who are
against selling magic sale systems and special methodology, you know,
(13:41):
sales like that, that's just going to cause more damage.
So anybody listening has any connections to these heroes or organizations, right,
please feel free to reach out.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, absolutely, Well we'll make sure we put that in
the show notes, Steve, and make sure you guys how
you can connect with Steve Steve and are connected on
LinkedIn and my other places so that you can learn
from this and can connect and support this mission. I
think that's fantastic, Steve, because I think a lot of
people and speaking as a small business owner, we want
to help people so much. Sometimes we don't know how
(14:14):
to do the sales portion in an effective manner, and
like you said, we go on maybe a one size
it's done. We're trying, we're just trying to we're self sabotaging.
We're trying these scripts or things that were like well
it worked in the past or somehow you know, and
it's it's it's not working the way like you said,
(14:34):
and we've got to, like you know, hopefully heal this
brokenness in sale and today's sales team, because I know
It bugs the heck out of me when I get
people daily pitching me on emails or LinkedIn or whatever
it is this and I feel manipulated. I feel like
you said, pushy, like those things I'm literally experiencing, and
(14:55):
I'm like, there is nothing drawing me into your proposition.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
If it doesn't make mine right, it makes you not
want to buy. And it's funny you mentioned again a
couple of things that relate. But one of my keynotes,
I mean, the title, right is one size fits none,
So you can't do that, right. That doesn't work in
any aspect of life. Right. There isn't one size bicycle seat. Okay,
(15:25):
for you cyclists, you'll know what I mean. There isn't
one size shoe, right, A Nike only make size ten.
It's not how it works, and it's some of you
sportsman will know. But the US Open, you know, just
happened this weekend. It's just probably the best finish I've
ever seen but in golf, and one hundred and fifty
(15:47):
six players teed it up on Thursday. Okay, one fifty six.
How many unique sets of golf clubs do you think
we're on the course? Out of one hundred and fifty
six plays. How many unique sets?
Speaker 1 (16:01):
That's a good question. Does everybody have their own unique
you know, one hutter or whatever they want to have? Right?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yes, every single club is custom fitted to the person.
They don't go to Dick's Sporting Goods and buy the
magic set off the rack. And that is literally how
sales training has been done for seventy five years. Here's
your clubs. Yeah, they don't fit, like I can't even
(16:31):
address them. And they're left handed. I'm right handed. No,
I know. We just do it all the same way. Right,
These are these again magic old school sales methodology systems. Right,
that doesn't work right, It's it's twoenty twenty five, not
(16:52):
nineteen sixty five VCRs. We don't have Matt books in
our cars because they're obsolete, you know, all these sales
training techniques that are still being taught to that. It's like, dude, really,
so again, there's so much that has to be undone.
(17:15):
But the proof is in the pudding, right, talk talk
to consumers and you know, ask if they like being manipulated? Right,
And I'm talked down to and finaggled and nlped and
all of this crap that anybody with a working brain
whose synapses connect can see what a salesperson is doing.
(17:39):
M hmmm, we'll think it's a good thing. Good luck
to y'all. Okay, but that stuff does.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Not work, no, well it You know, like you said,
you can manipulate certain people to buy. There's certain things
you can do, right. It's not sustainable though, it doesn't
gain loyalty. Right, maybe you get the one off, right, Steve.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Correct'll never buy from you again, they'll never tell the friends,
they will put good things about you on LinkedIn or
social media. You won't have testimonials, you won't get referrals.
But you made the sale right. And this is again
what companies just are flat out insanely idiotically missing. Is
(18:19):
like you're foisting these ridiculous quotas onto a salesperson for
no reason at all. You just made stuff up in
a boardroom that they have to sell this amount by
this month or this quarter, and so you put massive
amounts of undue pressure on a salesperson to arm, wrestle
(18:40):
or prospect into buying who's not ready to buy to
meet your arbitrary number. I can't even describe the idiocy
of this, and in no other professional situation. Is this
ever done?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Right?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
That it is not done on Broadway? Okay, it is
not done in Hollywood, It's sure as heck. Is not
done on any major league sports team ever. Right, They
don't sit the players down before the season and arbitrarily
assigned the amount of receiving yards you need to catch
(19:18):
this year. Yes, it defies logic, but that's what's done
to salespeople and leaders and CEOs and owners think it's
a good thing.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
So again, it is a lot of undoing you know
has to happen. Yeah, which, again it's frustrating. But when
you meet the people that get it, and this is
a part of sales, I don't think a lot of
people understand. I asked this to a group I was
(19:51):
speaking to last week, and that there's two things I'm
completely unqualified to talk about, marriage and parenting, right, I
barely qualified to talk about this. But I ask people
who are parents, Okay, who has a daughter? Right? And
I don't know if you have kids?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I do, Yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
You have your daughter, a nineteen year old daughter and
a sixteen year old son.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Okay, this is perfect. So you have a teenage daughter? Yes,
I'll ask you the same question. Should she date whoever
the hell wants to date her?
Speaker 1 (20:31):
No way? Why why they really discriminating? Know what their
intentions are?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
They really want to date her. Isn't that a qualification?
Speaker 1 (20:41):
No, no, it is not.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
So salespeople listen on. Just because somebody wants to buy
something from you does not mean you should sell it
to them. That is not a qualityfication. You would not
let your daughter do that. Why do you let your
(21:05):
salespeople do that? You sell things to the wrong people.
It's disastrous. But hey, you met your quota, so that
was good, right. I mean again, it's pure insanity. You're
wasting time with bad customers. They will talk trash about you.
(21:26):
You can never please them. They're often unprofitable. They tax
your entire sales or delivery team. They will never say
a good thing about you. You can't win. They're not
going to reorder, they're not going to give you referrals.
But you hit the goal.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Yeah right, it's it's so important.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
It's so opposite of what should be done. But this
is what people are taught. Right, someone's within three square
feet of me and they have some form of currency,
I better extract it.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Like what no, Oh my god, now I've seen it
first time what you're talking about, Steve. I mean I've
been coming from the professional services industry, environmental consulting. Just
what you exactly said. You get any ambitious, you know,
proposal manager, somebody wants to get the sale in, like oh,
they want to spill. They're so get it in. They're excited,
(22:18):
and like you said, it's just a cascating efact throughout
the WRRLE organization that you never if they're not happy,
you keep having to like go back, oh well I
shouldn't be charged for this, but that The other thing
and then your team is frustrated is they're filling it
the stress and it's so it's it's it goes and
it goes down to the accounting. Hey they're not paying
their invoices in time or whatever. It's all of these things. Yeah,
(22:40):
and we have to be really cognizant of that. And
what you're saying, what I'm hearing you say, Steve, is
think about this all the way back before you even
hire the person. What is your overall plan? What is
and I think we've talked about this, your ere of
like this sales DNA, like what is what what are
we missing? Because we had to think through this a
little bit more intently instead of just oh yep, I
(23:00):
set the quota and I'm gonna hire just these people
and I'll fill them in and they'll make it happen.
That's not really for success good strategy, No, you know, yeah, yeah,
care a little bit more about what do you do?
Like what how do you like that missing link in
the hiring and like bridging that? Yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
In uh, if we had to pick like one thing
that we do as a company, right, sales collectively, the
one thing we do the best is probably building sales processes.
And you know, we talk about sports a lot because
such an easy yeah, Parson, And everybody knows football, right.
Everybody knows the NFL, right, I like everyone knows how
(23:43):
there's the most watched sport and American and all that stuff.
So there are thirty two teams in the NFL. And
I don't know if you watch or you like a
team or whatever. Do you have a team you watch?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Oh goodness, I'm here in southern California. My teams have
moved away. So right from a yeah fan or.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Raider fan, I got right. Yeah, So they're thirty two teams.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Do you know how many guys are on a team?
Speaker 1 (24:11):
That's a good question. Now I don't how many guys
are on so.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
On a Sunday, roughly fifty two to fifty three in
that range, right, show up, right to play? How long
do you think these guys have been playing?
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Oh? Goodness, what the life of a foot foto players
on a few right?
Speaker 2 (24:30):
In their lives? Oh?
Speaker 1 (24:31):
In their whole life?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah? How many years have they played this sport?
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Oh? Gosh, if they're professional, what ten, ten years, fifteen?
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I don't know, So let's say fifteen years they've been playing.
How good are they compared to the average human?
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I mean they're like at the top. I don't think
anybody average human can meet meet with these guys.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Do you know how much they make? Like what their
salary is? Do you know the average salary?
Speaker 1 (24:57):
It's the average salary. Now, it's got a decent amount
per and your year or whatever. Right their contract it's
three is it? Three? Wow? Over three million? Okay? Average average?
That's just average. Like if you're just that's not anybody
you know, the top quarterback or.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
They're sixty million, right the median salary. So the most
common amongst the team right is eight hundred and sixty thousand.
The guys that do not play right, it's eight hundred
and sixty thousand. So the question is this, there are
thirty two teams in the NFL with teams full of
(25:35):
one to one thousandth of one percenters who get paid
millions of dollars who know what to do? What percentage
of those thirty two teams have a playbook?
Speaker 1 (25:45):
They all have them?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Oh funny, they all do. Do you know what percentage
of companies have a playbook for their.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Salespeople question, what's what? What is it? What's what? What's what?
You're finding on this one percent? Wow? Fourteen percent? That's incredible.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Eighty six percent of companies, if they were a football team,
would go, hey, guys, there's the field. Yeah, go like
score a lot or something, and they expect to win games. Again,
that is an insane thought. And moreover, these thirty two
(26:29):
teams that have a playbook, do you know how much
they practice this playbook?
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Oh? Man, they're doing it what every week? Every couple
of days? I mean they're out there right yep.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
So this is a good one for people to realize
with you and your teams. So on a Sunday, right,
a game you know on Sunday, Right, it's three hours
and fifteen to sixteen minutes.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
For the broadcast.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Just to this is the game is three hours long.
The actual time on a clock in an NFL game
is sixty minutes. Do you know how much time you
know football actually happens. Do you have any idea how
many minutes the ball is in motion?
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Oh, that's a great question. Oh my gosh, probably pretty
low then, right, because it's all.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
The timeouts and what is it eighteen minutes?
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Eighteen minutes out of the sixty that you are actually playing,
the ball is actually moving?
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Correct? Wow, you've got fifty three guys right that show
up to work on Sunday? Ye? Do all fifty three
guys all play eighteen minutes?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
No?
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Why not?
Speaker 1 (27:40):
You only can have so many people on the field
at one time.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Then also, right, you've so eleven out of fifty three,
only eleven? Yeah, and you have offense, you have defense.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Oh that's yep, that's true.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Special teams so precisely zero players play all three.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Phases and none of them. Again, right, the.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Most amount of minutes one player can possibly play on
a Sunday is six minutes.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
That's incredible.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Maybe if they're getting killed and they're on offense, they're
not going to be on the field for six minutes
because the defense is always out there because they're getting killed.
So the most an NFL player could possibly work in
a week is six minutes, and that person makes three
(28:32):
point three million dollars a year. So the question is this,
how much time do these athletes put in to prepare
during the week. If they get a chance to work
for six minutes, how much time do they put in
to prepare to possibly execute for those six minutes, Because
(28:54):
that's what they get paid for, is the execution phase
of the six minutes. That's how they make all the money.
It's sixty five hours a week an NFL athlete sixty
five hours of prep game film, you know, home study,
weight room, practice, field running, plays, all of that stuff.
(29:15):
Sixty five hours for six minutes. What do you think
the ratio is for salespeople?
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Oh my gosh, I would suspect much much less.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
And leaders or owners or sales managers can't seem to
figure out why they're not selling stuff.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
No playbook no practice, no role play, no coaching, no
idea what they're good? Bet are in different at go
score a lot of points?
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Right, But even when you do get the opportunity to play,
you're you're you're not prepared, you have no right.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
And when they do get a chance to play, and
maybe they fumble or run the wrong route or something,
they get put on a football and plan and that'll work. Yeah, Hey, Timmy,
you better sell more. Shit. Okay, well you didn't onboard
me properly. You're not coaching me. I have no one
(30:13):
on one help. I don't know my sales DNA. There's
no playbook to practice, we don't have any updates. And
you sorry, you said you wanted me to sell more
McFly anybody home like.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Right?
Speaker 2 (30:29):
This is eighty six percent of companies and they somehow
can't figure out why we're not selling more.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yes, and yeah, so your new book, that's the sales
you know, this sales contrarian is really addressing this issue.
It's saying, let's look at these things. You're not you're
not considering these.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, it's funny, man, I had a lunch with a
kid yesterday and he's a salesperson with one of our
vendors and he just wanted to meet. They gave us
a referral and it's so funny. It didn't work out
because we didn't want the business. We turned it down right,
because it wasn't a good fit for us. And we
were just having lunch and was talking. It's like, man,
(31:12):
I love the book and so on, and we were
talking about goals and which I think are incredibly idiotic.
Goals caused so much damage. People have no idea, but
we've been talking about goal. We got to have smart
goal with this stuff. Right. This is how myths get
(31:32):
get built, right, is you just say something a bunch
of times so people start to believe it. And he
sat there, he just kind of looks at me. He's like, man,
I thought I was the only one who felt like you.
And he kills it. Okay, he kills it. They're a
(31:54):
fractional you know, accounting firm, right, we use that for
a book keeping and work and they do an amazing job.
And this kid is doing so great and the owner
of the company says, you know, probably her best hire. Right,
he has no quotas. There are no goals, right, there
are no weekly meetings. What's going on, you're right, none
(32:16):
of that. He's allowed to be himself. He's like, I've
never had a place that I enjoyed more, and he
told me he's not. He doesn't even think he's good
at sales, which because in his mind he's like, well,
I'm not using magic techniques, right, And he's like, man,
you know you gave me so much confidence, right, And
(32:37):
so we're so excited because he's going to do sales
DNA test now and he's going to go to an
entirely new level he never even thought about. So that's awesome.
This is funny when you meet people, and again, you
don't need to please everybody. You're you know, you're not
going to be everybody's cup of tea. So if people
don't want to work with us, or they think the
(32:58):
sales Collective is dumb or what a cool, go There's
plenty of other sales consulting companies you can go to.
We don't take it personally, but the clients that we
have that become our raving fans, like we don't need everyone,
will get a small percentage of people who get it.
And that's again we're not taught right to sell to everyone.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
So yes, right, no, and that really fits what what
what I think why I love having you on the
podcast to your point of being authentic, being real when
you understand that about yourself, and I use a frame
we'll call the five voices, but the idea is understanding
who you are as an individual, how you're unique, and then,
like you said, who you're supposed to reach that resonates
(33:41):
with that message and says, yeah, Steve's the person for me,
he gets me, he understands me. Fantastic. But if we
try to manipulate or try to conform ourselves to be
somebody else that we're not, it's not good for either
either party.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
And that's like what you said sort of reminds me
of why sales DNA is so important. And I know
we don't have a ton of time left.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
So maybe we can sort of a yeah, we're definitely
gonna have to hume back on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
People. You know everyone's taken an assessment before, right, tons
of them, and you know them all them for people
maybe not listening. These assessments, right, are personality, behavioral, aptitude, no, right,
tell skill based and there are about twenty five hundred
assessments that you could purchase twenty five hundred. So unfortunately,
(34:32):
most of them do not have something called predictive validity.
And what predictive validity is is can this assessment company
back up the claims they made about the data and
what you can derive from the data. Is it accurate?
Is it trustworthy? Do you know what percentage of assessments
(34:54):
are predictively valid.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
That's a great question. Don't know. I can say how?
And that is what you're saying kind of science background,
Where what's the justification?
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah, what is that four percent? Oh yeah, it's actually
slightly Underfore, ninety six percent of assessments have about the
same predictive validity as you shaking up a magic eight
ball or going to have your Tarot cards read. And
companies are using these for salespeople and for hiring. So
(35:30):
the reason we use sales DNA is because it is
predictably valid. We have thirty five years of proof. Two
and a half million salespeople have taken this right, so
we have the math, and so that's why we use
this in evaluating a potential higher, which, by the way,
(35:50):
each wrong higher sales higher in the US is one
point three million bucks lit on fire top line one
point three million, and the success rate of companies in
the US hiring salespeople is about two out of ten,
so two out of ten will become above average performers.
(36:13):
So again, these companies, they don't know what they don't know,
so they're trying to use some other assessment that has
nothing to do with sales, and sales DNA is specifically
built to assess whether or not a salesperson can execute right.
Can this guy throw a touchdown pass when the pressures on?
(36:35):
Can this gal hit a backhand up the line to
win the French open? All that matters is can you execute?
So that's why we use sales DNA and why we
measure so many things in a salesperson. And it's funny,
I can see traction back there, so items I have
good eyes. In the EOS vernacular, there's something called edit
(37:00):
want to have the capacity to do it right GWC,
and EOS will tell you if a person doesn't GWC
a role, you have to get them out of the
role or obviously not put them in the role. In
sales DNA, that thing is called the will to sell,
So we can measure whether or not a salesperson has
(37:21):
the will to sell, which is desire to be great
at sales, commitment to do the things they don't like
to do, outlook to think positively in the worst situation.
Motivation is what style are they motivated by? Extrinsic intrinsic
altruistic responsibility is do they blame others when they don't perform?
So that's just one right of twenty one thing sales
(37:44):
DNA measures. And if a salesperson does not have the
will to sell, there is precisely zero chance they become
a top performer. I'd probably want to know that before
I hire someone. Yes, I'd also probably know that if
I run a restaurant in my executive chef doesn't have
(38:04):
the will to cook, it's probably costing me a lot
in dow. Yeah, So we measure those things. We measure
things like the need to be liked, which is prevalent
in most salespeople, which kills them. We measure if they're
uncomfortable discussing money, can they recover from rejection quickly? All
of these other things we measure, and then what's unique
(38:27):
about us is we build the world's first customizable, one
size fits one training. So when someone does the sales
DNA test, which is unique to each person. We and
their leaders know exactly where they're strong, where they're middling,
where they need help, and that's how they're trained, right,
(38:48):
And that's the part that companies don't ever get because
they want to do the one size fits all stuff.
And while we hire ten salespeople, you got ninety days
to hit this number we made up in the border, Like,
what are you talking about? Where'd you come up with
the ninety days. Second of all, you give them no chance.
(39:09):
There is no process to follow, There is no training
and coaching. They don't have a leader who can help them.
They just have someone foisting orders at them who happened
to be a good salesperson. So they decide, well, hey,
they know how to sell, let's just make them the
sales manager.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Yep, Oh my goodness, we're hitting the nail on the head.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Idiocy of this. But maybe we'll save that for another time.
But you know, Ladies and Jenten Airlines don't promote the
flight attendant to pilot. It's not how it works. And
so if you don't have strong sales leaders, which is
one of the other things we do besides processes and
(39:54):
recruiting them, right, But you have no chance. If you
don't have a strong leader, front line leader of salespeople,
you have no chance to become a world class organization.
It is not possible. You just hope you find Michael
Jordan or Beyonce.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Yeah, just like right, it doesn't hope doesn't do it.
Doesn't do it.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
You know, but I can talk all day, but.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
I know, I know, Steve we I mean this, this
is so fantastic because here I want everyone to hear
loud and clear. You know how you're developing leaders, How
you're defining these sales folks, you know developed, you know,
hiring them, your optimization bill, developing them as leaders. It
details Really what I do is do your business is
(40:40):
aligning those people, the rest with the rest of the
team that maybe aren't that that so focused on sales
specifically uh as as a product or service, but really
aligning that with the rest of the team, the leadership,
the culture. Like you said, you need all the positions. Right.
If somebody says I'm the best and I'm the receiver
and I'm gonna you can't do all of them, correct,
(41:00):
I have to figure out where are you the right
the strongest and so team get in position.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Great point, and that's part of why when we look
at DNA, for example, if somebody's in outside sales, they
have to be be highly skilled and score high in hunting, reaching,
decision makers, networking. They can't need to be liked. They
have to recover from merchant. So you've got to assess
people and then put them in position to win. And
(41:32):
someone asked us yesterday to like, well, describe what you
guys do. So the reason I named it the Sales
Collective is because we have this unbelievably incredible team of
amazing people first but experts in what they do. So
when we have clients that want to help with recruiting salespeople,
they work specifically with tab right. She is amazing. All
(41:55):
she does all day long is recruiting. That's what she does.
When we work with clients who want us to help
build their sales process, they get Orlando, who is a subfont.
All he does all day long is live, eat, and
breathe sales process. When we want somebody that wants their
sales team trained, that's Robin. When we have somebody that
needs their sales leaders trains, that's Sean. So like we
(42:16):
we have this expert of levels in these silos. We
would never say to a client, well, yeah, well Sean
can do it all. Orrondo, he can do it all.
Like no, that's their level of expertise. But a lot
of our competitors, so I don't even say they're competitors,
but they'll be like, well, you know, just hire a
(42:38):
you know, a one person right, this fractional cry they
do everything, like really they're so they're an expert in training,
they're an expert in sales process building, they're expert in recruiting,
they're an expert in coaching. Record. I've never met someone
like that. So I'd love to see them because they
see them right or the zoo, we can all go
(43:00):
and watch them. But I just don't like seeing people
get taken advantage of, and you know companies selling the
service of like well we can do all five of those.
Oh really. So that's sort of what makes us unique
as a sales collective, and you know, luckily having these
amazing people in our organization that have come to us,
(43:22):
most of them right because they just want to be
in a place that they're put in a position to win,
right and ask to be a sales right. You don't
take someone who doesn't like to do outside sales and
make them cold call for one hundred days. You don't
take a network who's great among people and events, right
and community, you know things and lock them in a
(43:46):
room like it's so as we kind of leave our podcast,
just think about this, ladies and Jensen. Put people in
position to execute their superpowers, right, That's the key to leadership.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Yes, you know, I appreciate that. I know we're going
a little longer than we normally do in these deplods
because you have so much great insights, and I really
appreciate that. I hope you guys are hearing this loud
and clear that you know, don't do this duct tape management,
mislign team come full full transformation, you know, look at
the areas of your sale, like Steve has this whole
(44:19):
process down and and you know, and this is where
I love having people like you on the podcast, Steve,
so that we can help together. Or I'm looking at
on the other side of the team, coaching them and
looking culture audits and how we're working holistically in that team,
because we want to unify them. Let's not just p
smail this, Let's do it in a comprehensive way. And
I love the way that you're presenting it because we
(44:41):
don't want to pick up these arbitrary things that you mentioned.
If it's just an arbitrary goal, I'm just pulling something
out of air and just say make throwing it out
there and make it happen. It's like no, No, let's
learn our mistakes and and and learn from Steve and
his team for example, to do it better. Make let's
not make the same mistakes. Steve. I really appreciate you
(45:02):
being here on podcasts. It's been a blast.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
Thanks so much. Yeah, and I you know, people reach
out a lot of say nice things and so on,
but we're not a ton on the whole social media thing.
So you know, if anybody wants to connect, Lincoln is
usually the best place to find me. Uh, Steve haru
A g R O U X. And you know, I
guess the website right, the Sales Collective dot com. You know,
(45:29):
we we feel like we provide as much great content
as we can. We're always continuing to put that out there.
And you know, Brady and Connor on the exec team
and are awesome staff. So and Steph so again, if
there's anybody wants to say hi, please do connect right.
We love to keep people.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Yeah, absolutely, thank you. That is in our show notes.
We've been guys right. All that linked really h for
(46:14):
me on the.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Thanks Man, Appreciate you, David, appreciate everybody listening talk to me.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
Thanks everybody, thanks for listening. Until next time, be well, everybody,
take care, Thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Mm hmm
All right, welcome back to the Business Around Table podcast.
This week we have another great guest. My name is
David Carr, your host and founder of Stewart Your Business.
We have Steve Haru here on the podcast. He is
going to really dive into how to fix your sales
team before it sinks you really sharing the contrarian advantage.
So welcome to the podcast, Steve. Glad to have you here.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Thanks David, thanks for being on man appreciate Yeah, I
know you can time out from being a quarterback, so thanks.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, there you go. I do get mixed up with
that occasionally, so you know, now, it's great to have
you here. I'm excited to kind of get into really
get into a kind of a no fluff conversation, if
you what's all going wrong in most small to mid
size sales teams, Steve, where you have such a great
experience and really unpacking some ways that companies are hiring wrong,
(01:22):
leading poorly losing deals and really how to fix that
and and and they're and their sales going forward. And
so before we do that, I always like to have
our new guests, particularly because we do have returning guests.
But since you're brand new to our audience joining us.
You have founded the Sales Collective, you are a best
selling author, you're a keynote speaker, you have created the
(01:46):
sales DNA test, among other things. And so tell us
a little bit about your journey in becoming the sale contrarian.
And so, you know, why is that you know relevant
to our listeners? Take us back a little and I'll
love to hear your journey.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Sure thing, Hey, everybody, Steve Pharu be nice to meet y'all.
If you can see it great, if you can hear
it great. But yes, I'm probably the last person you'd
ever think right would become, you know, a keynote speaker,
right in doing what I do. And I grew up
(02:22):
pretty much not saying a word. I mean the first
you know, seventeen years of my life. I mean, I
you know, Mimes thought I was quiet, so to say
I was shy would be an understatement. But I ended
up I'm from Boston and ended up getting into a
really expensive business school up there and realized that after
(02:42):
I got my first semester of books that cost me
almost two grand I was about to bankrupt my parents.
So I had to get a job to help pay
for college, and so I was going to do anything.
I answered this job at and they had these poll
tabs and flyers right all over campus everything. It just said,
you know, part time job, ten dollars an hour and
(03:04):
a phone number, you know, and that was it. And
I call the number. I'm like, what is this job
you guys have plastered.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
All over campus.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
He goes, it's sales and I said, so would I
need to like talk to anybody? Or yeah, you have
to talk to what's wrong with you? Don't you have
a desk job or something or data entry? And she's
like no. I said, well, what would I be selling?
(03:34):
She goes, we'll let you know when you get down here.
So I went to and I got hired. I obviously
met their qualifications of you know, breathing and bleeding. So
I went back and told my parents and my parents,
by the way, Arthur Castanzas from Seinfeldt sob oh, yeah,
(03:56):
that's kind of how I ended up like this. But
so my dad goes out to go Stevie. I'm like, great, dad,
I got the job. That's awesome. What are you gonna
be doing? And I said, well, I think I'm gonna
sell knives door to door and people on a call it.
You know, podcasts are laughing now because it's everybody knows
(04:17):
cutco knives, and so I have to you know, let
you know, my dad was very supportive and uplifting and
an amazing dad, very nurturing and you know, so he
he turns to me and he goes, are you a moron?
Save the explotive?
Speaker 1 (04:36):
You get it?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I go what he goes, Stevie, don't be a schmuck.
You're gonna you're gonna sell knives door to do it.
You don't even talk. Who are you gonna sell knives to?
We'll be stupid. Get a real job. I don't want
to hear another word about this. I go, fine, hey, ma,
can I have one hundred and fifty bucks for this
(04:59):
night thing? So to pay for the job. So my
mom gives me the money and that was freshman year
of college. By senior year, I was number one in
the country selling cutcoa knives. So you know, quite the transformation,
(05:20):
I guess.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yeah, going from your dad saying don't do it at all,
I think being number one in the country.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Ye, So yeah. I stayed with them for a few
years after college, running sales teams and then went into
the insurance industry, which many of you know, the insurance
company with the duck. So it's funny. I went to
this job there and the guy looked at my resume
and he goes, he goes, you made money selling cutco knives. Yes, sir,
(05:51):
quite a lot of it. He goes, you can do
a flock And I said, I don't even know what
what is a flock? Anyway, he goes, doesn't matter. When
can you start? So that was my interview with that.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
I spent thirteen years at AFLAC and somehow in the
middle of my career did slightly better than sixty thousand agents.
So wow, that's my background. So now again I get
to teach and coach and train and speak and write
and do all these things to help people, you know,
do what I did. And I pretty much did the
polar opposite of everything I was ever taught ever, and
(06:30):
so that hence the title the sales Contrarian and the
books doing so well and all of those things. And
so that's how I got started.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Wow. Well, I mean, and this is society to dive into,
because you know, I think a lot of people almost
sometimes say sales is you know, I know you have
the sales is is a dirty word. It's like, I
feel dirty being sales?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Is that a plant? Or did you actually say that?
So yeah, go ahead, I don't even know that they're listening.
So The Sales Contrarian's my latest book. My first book
is called Sales is not a dirty word. What's funny
you said that? This is two weeks ago. I had
to get a new MX card and I'm talking to
(07:16):
the lady on AMEX and she goes, wait a second,
I know you. I'm like, what, how do you know?
What do you mean? She goes, I have your book.
I'm like, the sales Contrarian. She goes, no, no, no, no,
you wrote sales is not a dirty word, right I
go yeah. She goes, yeah, I love it. I can't
(07:39):
even like bought it during the pandemic, like it changed
my whole life. And you know, I'm like, wow, well thanks,
I was always looking for the one person who bought it,
so really, you know, she laughs.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Whatever, So it's.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Funny you say that, But that is the idea behind
why I do what I do is to undo right
this disastrous reputation that salespeople haven't Another author who I
aspire to be, you know, one one thousandth of right,
Daniel Pink and I cite Daniel in my new book.
But Daniel cites a study in his book called to
(08:14):
Sell is Human?
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Right, What a surprise.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
And there's a study that they cite where they ask
to people, thousands and thousands of people, what's the first
word that comes to mind when you hear the word
salesperson or sales Right, So y'all can look up the
word cloud, but it's not endearing, Okay, the word will
say and the number one answer was pushy. Then you
(08:38):
have things like yuck, ug, aggressive, smarmy. Right, there's all
these words, and if anyone listening doesn't already know the
reputation salespeople have, this will solidify it. The three least
trusted professions on this planet salespeople, lawyers, politicians. What a crew?
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Mm.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
So if you keep doing this the old school feel
felt found and you know magic selling systems right from
the sixties. You gotta say this and do that, do
the upfront contract. Like you're causing people to resist even more,
(09:23):
like you're in reinforcing the trauma right they've been through
in every selling experience they've ever had, and you do
the same thing that's always been done to them. You
ain't selling stuff. So trying to undo all of these
bad behaviors is pretty much what I work on every day.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Well, it's so needed, you know, and unfortunately it's not
going to go way quickly. But I think I'm glad
you're here, Steve, because you know, I work with business
owners all the time and individuals and helping them. And
even in my own mind, Steve, like turning it around
in a healthy way and in becoming a true professional,
(10:04):
Are you actually helping people and not being a glorified
order taker?
Speaker 2 (10:10):
You know, absolutely, that's what I mean. A lot of
salespeople in the last few years during the pandemic anyway,
obviously thankfully we're much past that now, but it made
a lot of salespeople lazy because their product or service,
or industry or environment or whatever was adversely affected or
(10:35):
right incredibly positively affected right with COVID, and so people
did become order takers because it was much easier to
sell certain things. So now it's time to realize that
maybe all of that success wasn't us as salespeople, and
it was we just had a fire hose when somebody's
(10:55):
house was on fire. And so there's a lot of
salespeople right now don't believe right they are a true
professional like a doctor or a dentist, right or or whatever.
And if you treat it like that, well clearly you're
not going to have great success. So the second people
(11:18):
start treating this like a career and something that is
to be respected, and that's really again, part of my
plight here is to bring respect right back into the
sales profession. And so that's you know, what gets me
up every day.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, well absolutely, And whether you're and I would say
Steve as people are listening to this, whether you're the
business owner or leader organization. You may not be the
full time salesperson, but aren't we in some ways you're
always doing some sort of sales selling.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yeah. I met a gentleman through Vistage. We were talking
about and he had been in Vistage for ten twenty years,
long time, sold this company for three billion dollars. Ket
just met him randomly. He was listening to my business
talk and at the end I was like, man, Mike,
that's pretty amazing what you've built and what you do,
and you know, can I ask what your company was
(12:14):
and he said I ran a sales organization. I'm like, oh,
that's interesting. How so and he said, well, we manufactured pipes.
And I'm like, man, this guy gets it right, because
everyone is selling right. The foreman has to sell shipping
(12:34):
on his or her idea right, the head of accounting,
you know, she's got to sell you know, her new
design of a spreadsheet right to her. So you know,
kids are obviously the best salespeople just never give up.
But there's so much of that in life that we don't,
(12:55):
you know, understand. And another part of what I'm doing,
which I think is really great to share and if
anybody would like to help, that would be awesome. I
have a nonprofit that I called a Million Veteran Mission,
So I'm going to teach a million veterans how to sell,
so we'll all be gifted granted donating. We have so
many great connections already in the military, but our men
(13:16):
and women come back write these heroes to not much,
and many of them want to go into civilian life.
And you know, if I can give back and do
my part, I don't want them like being exposed to
these social media clowns and grifter and frauds who are
against selling magic sale systems and special methodology, you know,
(13:41):
sales like that, that's just going to cause more damage.
So anybody listening has any connections to these heroes or organizations, right,
please feel free to reach out.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, absolutely, Well we'll make sure we put that in
the show notes, Steve, and make sure you guys how
you can connect with Steve Steve and are connected on
LinkedIn and my other places so that you can learn
from this and can connect and support this mission. I
think that's fantastic, Steve, because I think a lot of
people and speaking as a small business owner, we want
to help people so much. Sometimes we don't know how
(14:14):
to do the sales portion in an effective manner, and
like you said, we go on maybe a one size
it's done. We're trying, we're just trying to we're self sabotaging.
We're trying these scripts or things that were like well
it worked in the past or somehow you know, and
it's it's it's not working the way like you said,
(14:34):
and we've got to, like you know, hopefully heal this
brokenness in sale and today's sales team, because I know
It bugs the heck out of me when I get
people daily pitching me on emails or LinkedIn or whatever
it is this and I feel manipulated. I feel like
you said, pushy, like those things I'm literally experiencing, and
(14:55):
I'm like, there is nothing drawing me into your proposition.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
If it doesn't make mine right, it makes you not
want to buy. And it's funny you mentioned again a
couple of things that relate. But one of my keynotes,
I mean, the title, right is one size fits none,
So you can't do that, right. That doesn't work in
any aspect of life. Right. There isn't one size bicycle seat. Okay,
(15:25):
for you cyclists, you'll know what I mean. There isn't
one size shoe, right, A Nike only make size ten.
It's not how it works, and it's some of you
sportsman will know. But the US Open, you know, just
happened this weekend. It's just probably the best finish I've
ever seen but in golf, and one hundred and fifty
(15:47):
six players teed it up on Thursday. Okay, one fifty six.
How many unique sets of golf clubs do you think
we're on the course? Out of one hundred and fifty
six plays. How many unique sets?
Speaker 1 (16:01):
That's a good question. Does everybody have their own unique
you know, one hutter or whatever they want to have? Right?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yes, every single club is custom fitted to the person.
They don't go to Dick's Sporting Goods and buy the
magic set off the rack. And that is literally how
sales training has been done for seventy five years. Here's
your clubs. Yeah, they don't fit, like I can't even
(16:31):
address them. And they're left handed. I'm right handed. No,
I know. We just do it all the same way. Right,
These are these again magic old school sales methodology systems. Right,
that doesn't work right, It's it's twoenty twenty five, not
(16:52):
nineteen sixty five VCRs. We don't have Matt books in
our cars because they're obsolete, you know, all these sales
training techniques that are still being taught to that. It's like, dude, really,
so again, there's so much that has to be undone.
(17:15):
But the proof is in the pudding, right, talk talk
to consumers and you know, ask if they like being manipulated? Right,
And I'm talked down to and finaggled and nlped and
all of this crap that anybody with a working brain
whose synapses connect can see what a salesperson is doing.
(17:39):
M hmmm, we'll think it's a good thing. Good luck
to y'all. Okay, but that stuff does.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Not work, no, well it You know, like you said,
you can manipulate certain people to buy. There's certain things
you can do, right. It's not sustainable though, it doesn't
gain loyalty. Right, maybe you get the one off, right, Steve.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Correct'll never buy from you again, they'll never tell the friends,
they will put good things about you on LinkedIn or
social media. You won't have testimonials, you won't get referrals.
But you made the sale right. And this is again
what companies just are flat out insanely idiotically missing. Is
(18:19):
like you're foisting these ridiculous quotas onto a salesperson for
no reason at all. You just made stuff up in
a boardroom that they have to sell this amount by
this month or this quarter, and so you put massive
amounts of undue pressure on a salesperson to arm, wrestle
(18:40):
or prospect into buying who's not ready to buy to
meet your arbitrary number. I can't even describe the idiocy
of this, and in no other professional situation. Is this
ever done?
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Right?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
That it is not done on Broadway? Okay, it is
not done in Hollywood, It's sure as heck. Is not
done on any major league sports team ever. Right, They
don't sit the players down before the season and arbitrarily
assigned the amount of receiving yards you need to catch
(19:18):
this year. Yes, it defies logic, but that's what's done
to salespeople and leaders and CEOs and owners think it's
a good thing.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
So again, it is a lot of undoing you know
has to happen. Yeah, which, again it's frustrating. But when
you meet the people that get it, and this is
a part of sales, I don't think a lot of
people understand. I asked this to a group I was
(19:51):
speaking to last week, and that there's two things I'm
completely unqualified to talk about, marriage and parenting, right, I
barely qualified to talk about this. But I ask people
who are parents, Okay, who has a daughter? Right? And
I don't know if you have kids?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
I do, Yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Ye.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
You have your daughter, a nineteen year old daughter and
a sixteen year old son.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Okay, this is perfect. So you have a teenage daughter? Yes,
I'll ask you the same question. Should she date whoever
the hell wants to date her?
Speaker 1 (20:31):
No way? Why why they really discriminating? Know what their
intentions are?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
They really want to date her. Isn't that a qualification?
Speaker 1 (20:41):
No, no, it is not.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
So salespeople listen on. Just because somebody wants to buy
something from you does not mean you should sell it
to them. That is not a qualityfication. You would not
let your daughter do that. Why do you let your
(21:05):
salespeople do that? You sell things to the wrong people.
It's disastrous. But hey, you met your quota, so that
was good, right. I mean again, it's pure insanity. You're
wasting time with bad customers. They will talk trash about you.
(21:26):
You can never please them. They're often unprofitable. They tax
your entire sales or delivery team. They will never say
a good thing about you. You can't win. They're not
going to reorder, they're not going to give you referrals.
But you hit the goal.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Yeah right, it's it's so important.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
It's so opposite of what should be done. But this
is what people are taught. Right, someone's within three square
feet of me and they have some form of currency,
I better extract it.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Like what no, Oh my god, now I've seen it
first time what you're talking about, Steve. I mean I've
been coming from the professional services industry, environmental consulting. Just
what you exactly said. You get any ambitious, you know,
proposal manager, somebody wants to get the sale in, like oh,
they want to spill. They're so get it in. They're excited,
(22:18):
and like you said, it's just a cascating efact throughout
the WRRLE organization that you never if they're not happy,
you keep having to like go back, oh well I
shouldn't be charged for this, but that The other thing
and then your team is frustrated is they're filling it
the stress and it's so it's it's it goes and
it goes down to the accounting. Hey they're not paying
their invoices in time or whatever. It's all of these things. Yeah,
(22:40):
and we have to be really cognizant of that. And
what you're saying, what I'm hearing you say, Steve, is
think about this all the way back before you even
hire the person. What is your overall plan? What is
and I think we've talked about this, your ere of
like this sales DNA, like what is what what are
we missing? Because we had to think through this a
little bit more intently instead of just oh yep, I
(23:00):
set the quota and I'm gonna hire just these people
and I'll fill them in and they'll make it happen.
That's not really for success good strategy, No, you know, yeah, yeah,
care a little bit more about what do you do?
Like what how do you like that missing link in
the hiring and like bridging that? Yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
In uh, if we had to pick like one thing
that we do as a company, right, sales collectively, the
one thing we do the best is probably building sales processes.
And you know, we talk about sports a lot because
such an easy yeah, Parson, And everybody knows football, right.
Everybody knows the NFL, right, I like everyone knows how
(23:43):
there's the most watched sport and American and all that stuff.
So there are thirty two teams in the NFL. And
I don't know if you watch or you like a
team or whatever. Do you have a team you watch?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Oh goodness, I'm here in southern California. My teams have
moved away. So right from a yeah fan or.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Raider fan, I got right. Yeah, So they're thirty two teams.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Do you know how many guys are on a team?
Speaker 1 (24:11):
That's a good question. Now I don't how many guys
are on so.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
On a Sunday, roughly fifty two to fifty three in
that range, right, show up, right to play? How long
do you think these guys have been playing?
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Oh? Goodness, what the life of a foot foto players
on a few right?
Speaker 2 (24:30):
In their lives? Oh?
Speaker 1 (24:31):
In their whole life?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah? How many years have they played this sport?
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Oh? Gosh, if they're professional, what ten, ten years, fifteen?
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I don't know, So let's say fifteen years they've been playing.
How good are they compared to the average human?
Speaker 1 (24:45):
I mean they're like at the top. I don't think
anybody average human can meet meet with these guys.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
Do you know how much they make? Like what their
salary is? Do you know the average salary?
Speaker 1 (24:57):
It's the average salary. Now, it's got a decent amount
per and your year or whatever. Right their contract it's
three is it? Three? Wow? Over three million? Okay? Average average?
That's just average. Like if you're just that's not anybody
you know, the top quarterback or.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
They're sixty million, right the median salary. So the most
common amongst the team right is eight hundred and sixty thousand.
The guys that do not play right, it's eight hundred
and sixty thousand. So the question is this, there are
thirty two teams in the NFL with teams full of
(25:35):
one to one thousandth of one percenters who get paid
millions of dollars who know what to do? What percentage
of those thirty two teams have a playbook?
Speaker 1 (25:45):
They all have them?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Oh funny, they all do. Do you know what percentage
of companies have a playbook for their.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Salespeople question, what's what? What is it? What's what? What's what?
You're finding on this one percent? Wow? Fourteen percent? That's incredible.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Eighty six percent of companies, if they were a football team,
would go, hey, guys, there's the field. Yeah, go like
score a lot or something, and they expect to win games. Again,
that is an insane thought. And moreover, these thirty two
(26:29):
teams that have a playbook, do you know how much
they practice this playbook?
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Oh? Man, they're doing it what every week? Every couple
of days? I mean they're out there right yep.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
So this is a good one for people to realize
with you and your teams. So on a Sunday, right,
a game you know on Sunday, Right, it's three hours
and fifteen to sixteen minutes.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
For the broadcast.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Just to this is the game is three hours long.
The actual time on a clock in an NFL game
is sixty minutes. Do you know how much time you
know football actually happens. Do you have any idea how
many minutes the ball is in motion?
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Oh, that's a great question. Oh my gosh, probably pretty
low then, right, because it's all.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
The timeouts and what is it eighteen minutes?
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Eighteen minutes out of the sixty that you are actually playing,
the ball is actually moving?
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Correct? Wow, you've got fifty three guys right that show
up to work on Sunday? Ye? Do all fifty three
guys all play eighteen minutes?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
No?
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Why not?
Speaker 1 (27:40):
You only can have so many people on the field
at one time.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Then also, right, you've so eleven out of fifty three,
only eleven? Yeah, and you have offense, you have defense.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Oh that's yep, that's true.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Special teams so precisely zero players play all three.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Phases and none of them. Again, right, the.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Most amount of minutes one player can possibly play on
a Sunday is six minutes.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
That's incredible.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Maybe if they're getting killed and they're on offense, they're
not going to be on the field for six minutes
because the defense is always out there because they're getting killed.
So the most an NFL player could possibly work in
a week is six minutes, and that person makes three
(28:32):
point three million dollars a year. So the question is this,
how much time do these athletes put in to prepare
during the week. If they get a chance to work
for six minutes, how much time do they put in
to prepare to possibly execute for those six minutes, Because
(28:54):
that's what they get paid for, is the execution phase
of the six minutes. That's how they make all the money.
It's sixty five hours a week an NFL athlete sixty
five hours of prep game film, you know, home study,
weight room, practice, field running, plays, all of that stuff.
(29:15):
Sixty five hours for six minutes. What do you think
the ratio is for salespeople?
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Oh my gosh, I would suspect much much less.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
And leaders or owners or sales managers can't seem to
figure out why they're not selling stuff.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
No playbook no practice, no role play, no coaching, no
idea what they're good? Bet are in different at go
score a lot of points?
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Right, But even when you do get the opportunity to play,
you're you're you're not prepared, you have no right.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
And when they do get a chance to play, and
maybe they fumble or run the wrong route or something,
they get put on a football and plan and that'll work. Yeah, Hey, Timmy,
you better sell more. Shit. Okay, well you didn't onboard
me properly. You're not coaching me. I have no one
(30:13):
on one help. I don't know my sales DNA. There's
no playbook to practice, we don't have any updates. And
you sorry, you said you wanted me to sell more
McFly anybody home like.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Right?
Speaker 2 (30:29):
This is eighty six percent of companies and they somehow
can't figure out why we're not selling more.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yes, and yeah, so your new book, that's the sales
you know, this sales contrarian is really addressing this issue.
It's saying, let's look at these things. You're not you're
not considering these.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, it's funny, man, I had a lunch with a
kid yesterday and he's a salesperson with one of our
vendors and he just wanted to meet. They gave us
a referral and it's so funny. It didn't work out
because we didn't want the business. We turned it down right,
because it wasn't a good fit for us. And we
were just having lunch and was talking. It's like, man,
(31:12):
I love the book and so on, and we were
talking about goals and which I think are incredibly idiotic.
Goals caused so much damage. People have no idea, but
we've been talking about goal. We got to have smart
goal with this stuff. Right. This is how myths get
(31:32):
get built, right, is you just say something a bunch
of times so people start to believe it. And he
sat there, he just kind of looks at me. He's like, man,
I thought I was the only one who felt like you.
And he kills it. Okay, he kills it. They're a
(31:54):
fractional you know, accounting firm, right, we use that for
a book keeping and work and they do an amazing job.
And this kid is doing so great and the owner
of the company says, you know, probably her best hire. Right,
he has no quotas. There are no goals, right, there
are no weekly meetings. What's going on, you're right, none
(32:16):
of that. He's allowed to be himself. He's like, I've
never had a place that I enjoyed more, and he
told me he's not. He doesn't even think he's good
at sales, which because in his mind he's like, well,
I'm not using magic techniques, right, And he's like, man,
you know you gave me so much confidence, right, And
(32:37):
so we're so excited because he's going to do sales
DNA test now and he's going to go to an
entirely new level he never even thought about. So that's awesome.
This is funny when you meet people, and again, you
don't need to please everybody. You're you know, you're not
going to be everybody's cup of tea. So if people
don't want to work with us, or they think the
(32:58):
sales Collective is dumb or what a cool, go There's
plenty of other sales consulting companies you can go to.
We don't take it personally, but the clients that we
have that become our raving fans, like we don't need everyone,
will get a small percentage of people who get it.
And that's again we're not taught right to sell to everyone.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
So yes, right, no, and that really fits what what
what I think why I love having you on the
podcast to your point of being authentic, being real when
you understand that about yourself, and I use a frame
we'll call the five voices, but the idea is understanding
who you are as an individual, how you're unique, and then,
like you said, who you're supposed to reach that resonates
(33:41):
with that message and says, yeah, Steve's the person for me,
he gets me, he understands me. Fantastic. But if we
try to manipulate or try to conform ourselves to be
somebody else that we're not, it's not good for either
either party.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
And that's like what you said sort of reminds me
of why sales DNA is so important. And I know
we don't have a ton of time left.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
So maybe we can sort of a yeah, we're definitely
gonna have to hume back on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
People. You know everyone's taken an assessment before, right, tons
of them, and you know them all them for people
maybe not listening. These assessments, right, are personality, behavioral, aptitude, no, right,
tell skill based and there are about twenty five hundred
assessments that you could purchase twenty five hundred. So unfortunately,
(34:32):
most of them do not have something called predictive validity.
And what predictive validity is is can this assessment company
back up the claims they made about the data and
what you can derive from the data. Is it accurate?
Is it trustworthy? Do you know what percentage of assessments
(34:54):
are predictively valid.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
That's a great question. Don't know. I can say how?
And that is what you're saying kind of science background,
Where what's the justification?
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah, what is that four percent? Oh yeah, it's actually
slightly Underfore, ninety six percent of assessments have about the
same predictive validity as you shaking up a magic eight
ball or going to have your Tarot cards read. And
companies are using these for salespeople and for hiring. So
(35:30):
the reason we use sales DNA is because it is
predictably valid. We have thirty five years of proof. Two
and a half million salespeople have taken this right, so
we have the math, and so that's why we use
this in evaluating a potential higher, which, by the way,
(35:50):
each wrong higher sales higher in the US is one
point three million bucks lit on fire top line one
point three million, and the success rate of companies in
the US hiring salespeople is about two out of ten,
so two out of ten will become above average performers.
(36:13):
So again, these companies, they don't know what they don't know,
so they're trying to use some other assessment that has
nothing to do with sales, and sales DNA is specifically
built to assess whether or not a salesperson can execute right.
Can this guy throw a touchdown pass when the pressures on?
(36:35):
Can this gal hit a backhand up the line to
win the French open? All that matters is can you execute?
So that's why we use sales DNA and why we
measure so many things in a salesperson. And it's funny,
I can see traction back there, so items I have
good eyes. In the EOS vernacular, there's something called edit
(37:00):
want to have the capacity to do it right GWC,
and EOS will tell you if a person doesn't GWC
a role, you have to get them out of the
role or obviously not put them in the role. In
sales DNA, that thing is called the will to sell,
So we can measure whether or not a salesperson has
(37:21):
the will to sell, which is desire to be great
at sales, commitment to do the things they don't like
to do, outlook to think positively in the worst situation.
Motivation is what style are they motivated by? Extrinsic intrinsic
altruistic responsibility is do they blame others when they don't perform?
So that's just one right of twenty one thing sales
(37:44):
DNA measures. And if a salesperson does not have the
will to sell, there is precisely zero chance they become
a top performer. I'd probably want to know that before
I hire someone. Yes, I'd also probably know that if
I run a restaurant in my executive chef doesn't have
(38:04):
the will to cook, it's probably costing me a lot
in dow. Yeah, So we measure those things. We measure
things like the need to be liked, which is prevalent
in most salespeople, which kills them. We measure if they're
uncomfortable discussing money, can they recover from rejection quickly? All
of these other things we measure, and then what's unique
(38:27):
about us is we build the world's first customizable, one
size fits one training. So when someone does the sales
DNA test, which is unique to each person. We and
their leaders know exactly where they're strong, where they're middling,
where they need help, and that's how they're trained, right,
(38:48):
And that's the part that companies don't ever get because
they want to do the one size fits all stuff.
And while we hire ten salespeople, you got ninety days
to hit this number we made up in the border, Like,
what are you talking about? Where'd you come up with
the ninety days. Second of all, you give them no chance.
(39:09):
There is no process to follow, There is no training
and coaching. They don't have a leader who can help them.
They just have someone foisting orders at them who happened
to be a good salesperson. So they decide, well, hey,
they know how to sell, let's just make them the
sales manager.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Yep, Oh my goodness, we're hitting the nail on the head.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Idiocy of this. But maybe we'll save that for another time.
But you know, Ladies and Jenten Airlines don't promote the
flight attendant to pilot. It's not how it works. And
so if you don't have strong sales leaders, which is
one of the other things we do besides processes and
(39:54):
recruiting them, right, But you have no chance. If you
don't have a strong leader, front line leader of salespeople,
you have no chance to become a world class organization.
It is not possible. You just hope you find Michael
Jordan or Beyonce.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Yeah, just like right, it doesn't hope doesn't do it.
Doesn't do it.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
You know, but I can talk all day, but.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
I know, I know, Steve we I mean this, this
is so fantastic because here I want everyone to hear
loud and clear. You know how you're developing leaders, How
you're defining these sales folks, you know developed, you know,
hiring them, your optimization bill, developing them as leaders. It
details Really what I do is do your business is
(40:40):
aligning those people, the rest with the rest of the
team that maybe aren't that that so focused on sales
specifically uh as as a product or service, but really
aligning that with the rest of the team, the leadership,
the culture. Like you said, you need all the positions. Right.
If somebody says I'm the best and I'm the receiver
and I'm gonna you can't do all of them, correct,
(41:00):
I have to figure out where are you the right
the strongest and so team get in position.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Great point, and that's part of why when we look
at DNA, for example, if somebody's in outside sales, they
have to be be highly skilled and score high in hunting, reaching,
decision makers, networking. They can't need to be liked. They
have to recover from merchant. So you've got to assess
people and then put them in position to win. And
(41:32):
someone asked us yesterday to like, well, describe what you
guys do. So the reason I named it the Sales
Collective is because we have this unbelievably incredible team of
amazing people first but experts in what they do. So
when we have clients that want to help with recruiting salespeople,
they work specifically with tab right. She is amazing. All
(41:55):
she does all day long is recruiting. That's what she does.
When we work with clients who want us to help
build their sales process, they get Orlando, who is a subfont.
All he does all day long is live, eat, and
breathe sales process. When we want somebody that wants their
sales team trained, that's Robin. When we have somebody that
needs their sales leaders trains, that's Sean. So like we
(42:16):
we have this expert of levels in these silos. We
would never say to a client, well, yeah, well Sean
can do it all. Orrondo, he can do it all.
Like no, that's their level of expertise. But a lot
of our competitors, so I don't even say they're competitors,
but they'll be like, well, you know, just hire a
(42:38):
you know, a one person right, this fractional cry they
do everything, like really they're so they're an expert in training,
they're an expert in sales process building, they're expert in recruiting,
they're an expert in coaching. Record. I've never met someone
like that. So I'd love to see them because they
see them right or the zoo, we can all go
(43:00):
and watch them. But I just don't like seeing people
get taken advantage of, and you know companies selling the
service of like well we can do all five of those.
Oh really. So that's sort of what makes us unique
as a sales collective, and you know, luckily having these
amazing people in our organization that have come to us,
(43:22):
most of them right because they just want to be
in a place that they're put in a position to win,
right and ask to be a sales right. You don't
take someone who doesn't like to do outside sales and
make them cold call for one hundred days. You don't
take a network who's great among people and events, right
and community, you know things and lock them in a
(43:46):
room like it's so as we kind of leave our podcast,
just think about this, ladies and Jensen. Put people in
position to execute their superpowers, right, That's the key to leadership.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Yes, you know, I appreciate that. I know we're going
a little longer than we normally do in these deplods
because you have so much great insights, and I really
appreciate that. I hope you guys are hearing this loud
and clear that you know, don't do this duct tape management,
mislign team come full full transformation, you know, look at
the areas of your sale, like Steve has this whole
(44:19):
process down and and you know, and this is where
I love having people like you on the podcast, Steve,
so that we can help together. Or I'm looking at
on the other side of the team, coaching them and
looking culture audits and how we're working holistically in that team,
because we want to unify them. Let's not just p
smail this, Let's do it in a comprehensive way. And
I love the way that you're presenting it because we
(44:41):
don't want to pick up these arbitrary things that you mentioned.
If it's just an arbitrary goal, I'm just pulling something
out of air and just say make throwing it out
there and make it happen. It's like no, No, let's
learn our mistakes and and and learn from Steve and
his team for example, to do it better. Make let's
not make the same mistakes. Steve. I really appreciate you
(45:02):
being here on podcasts. It's been a blast.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
Thanks so much. Yeah, and I you know, people reach
out a lot of say nice things and so on,
but we're not a ton on the whole social media thing.
So you know, if anybody wants to connect, Lincoln is
usually the best place to find me. Uh, Steve haru
A g R O U X. And you know, I
guess the website right, the Sales Collective dot com. You know,
(45:29):
we we feel like we provide as much great content
as we can. We're always continuing to put that out there.
And you know, Brady and Connor on the exec team
and are awesome staff. So and Steph so again, if
there's anybody wants to say hi, please do connect right.
We love to keep people.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Yeah, absolutely, thank you. That is in our show notes.
We've been guys right. All that linked really h for
(46:14):
me on the.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
Thanks Man, Appreciate you, David, appreciate everybody listening talk to me.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
Thanks everybody, thanks for listening. Until next time, be well, everybody,
take care, Thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Mm hmm
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