October 21, 2025 • 41 mins
Is your HR function driving strategy—or just keeping up with compliance?
In this episode of the Business Roundtable Podcast, host David W. Carr speaks with Mindy Honcoop, HR innovator, advisor, and founder of Agile in HR. With more than 25 years of experience across leadership, social work, and organizational ecosystems, Mindy helps leaders move beyond reactive HR and create workplaces where both people and businesses thrive.
Mindy shares how burnout can become a breakthrough when leaders align people, process, and technology. She explains why fear holds back HR leaders, how curiosity opens new solutions, and how to build trust and alignment across fast-growing organizations.
In this conversation, you’ll learn:
Connect with Mindy Honcoop:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mindyhoncoop/
Website: https://www.agileinhr.com/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/business-roundtable--6049255/support.
Watch more episodes on YouTube and subscribe here:
https://www.youtube.com/@steward_your_business
Connect with Steward Your Business:
Website: https://stewardyourbusiness.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidwcarr
In this episode of the Business Roundtable Podcast, host David W. Carr speaks with Mindy Honcoop, HR innovator, advisor, and founder of Agile in HR. With more than 25 years of experience across leadership, social work, and organizational ecosystems, Mindy helps leaders move beyond reactive HR and create workplaces where both people and businesses thrive.
Mindy shares how burnout can become a breakthrough when leaders align people, process, and technology. She explains why fear holds back HR leaders, how curiosity opens new solutions, and how to build trust and alignment across fast-growing organizations.
In this conversation, you’ll learn:
- Why HR must move from compliance-driven to a future-focused strategy
- How to overcome fear and shift toward curiosity and co-creation
- The role of trust, alignment, and communication in scaling organizations
- Practical ways to integrate people, process, and technology for lasting impact
Connect with Mindy Honcoop:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mindyhoncoop/
Website: https://www.agileinhr.com/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/business-roundtable--6049255/support.
Watch more episodes on YouTube and subscribe here:
https://www.youtube.com/@steward_your_business
Connect with Steward Your Business:
Website: https://stewardyourbusiness.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidwcarr
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
All right, welcome back to the Business round Table podcast.
I am your host, David Carr Founders Doing your Business,
where you bring people together to accomplish great things. And
this week we have an amazing new guests, Mini Hankoop.
We're super happily to have you here, Hr Innovator Advisor, Uh,
just an all around amazing person.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
I just loved our first conversation and getting to meet
you and all the great work that you do, and
I wish we had recorded that call, so I'm excited
to finally be able to do that.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Absolutely. You know this podcast we talk a lot of
issues that business owners leaders face, Mindy, and you're on
the cutting edge, I really believe, and we're gonna dive
into that a little bit today. But before we do that,
I like giving people an opportunity to learn a little
bit more about you, your journey as a business owner,
(01:28):
why do you start your company and your specific angle Mindy.
So if you wouldn't mind take us back a little
bit before you started agile and R and what got
you to where you're at today?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, yeah, And I'll try to keep it short.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, ow good.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I have been in the world of HR for over
twenty five years.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I can't believe it.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
It was twenty five years in June, and longer than
I'd like to admit.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I fell into.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
HR through the world of social work, and I have
always just had a calling to help people, to drive
positive impact, to be able to kind of help people
realize what was.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Possible when they didn't see it before.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
And so I think I've always loved being the concept
of being a guide and walking alongside of someone to
help them go to a place they didn't think they
could be before, and taking them from point A to
point B.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
And so I really saw.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
The possibility of that through social work and then saw
just the tie in of social work and workplaces because
really social work is really looking at ecosystems, and each
workplace is its own unique ecosystem, and it's really around
how do we take people from point A or a
group of people from point A to point B and
(02:55):
think about, you know, what is that iterative behavior change
that we are coming alongside of them and being able
to help understand different tools and resources along that journey
to help, you know, move someone to a desired future
state and creating ecosystem awareness of how the ecosystem from
a sociology point of view can help better come alongside
(03:19):
of and be aware of often the invisible within our ecosystems.
And so my husband and I got married when I
was still in college. He's three years older than me.
He was already in the workplace, and as I was
learning the world of social work, he often would overhear
me and say, man, I really wish our HR person
(03:39):
would have asked this, And I was like, HR, talk.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
To me more.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
So he set up a meeting, and from there I
am now I you know, was in the backyard in Seattle,
started at Microsoft and then went on to Expedia and
other amazing organizations, and you know, really, you know, fell
in love with how do we create healthier workplace ecosystems?
(04:03):
Because I truly felt healthier workplaces, healthier communities and society.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, no, I think that's so great, Mindy. And you know,
I remember one of the things we talked about before
we started recording this and why I wanted to have
you on the podcast is but you took HR in
a different direction than I've seen, and I see a
lot of things that's just kind of compliance. It's a
little bit more reactive at times, not so strategic. And
I thought, Okay, you're looking and I love the word ecosystem,
(04:31):
and my background is in biology and nature, and I find, like,
what but there isn't Sometimes people aren't thinking about this
so strategically and thinking it further ahead. And I think
that's where you're unique and a little different than I've
seen in coming and taking all this experience that you've had,
(04:51):
and so you know, what does that look like for
you as you've been moving forward to actually move from
a reactive to more strategic approach eystem.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
I mean, I find it's the ambiguity because it's the
and I love that I worked underneath leaders and within
organizations that really inspired my curiosity. Like I've always been curious.
I've always looked for there's got to be a better way.
You put a line on a paper and always try
(05:24):
to think about how can we make that line better,
especially with the connected group of people, and so how
can we approach this in a different way? And and
for me, the the alignment of technology and people and
driving together towards shared outcomes within the ecosystem of work
(05:46):
it's really how we as peoples, as humans are really
exploring and experiencing this ecosystem, and that is all the things, right,
How are we experiencing how we're.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Doing the work with the different technology.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Tools that are at our resources, who the members are,
our team, our managers, and all the.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Overlay of what's provided.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Within that ecosystem, and how aligned is it or not,
how easy is it or not to use. We alway
down even to the knowledge management and data and accessing tools.
And I've always loved technology because I just always saw
the opportunity for it to help positively impact the ability
(06:29):
for people in workplaces to do, you know, find do
better ways to do their work and get their work done,
but also free them up to do more of what
they wanted to do. Right, Like so many of us
start a job, we have the best of intentions, we
have like all these dreams of what we want to
accomplish and how we want to move the needle forward
(06:51):
within that company. And then how often do we start
to see that someone starts to become disengaged, often because
they're frustrated, they're also disconnect Did they've lost that sense
of clarity, They've lost a sense of how do am
I impacting the end result of like how this company successful?
I don't understand and and that breakdown and it breaks
(07:12):
down in so many different ways.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And is where that strategic piece.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
If we could be more proactive and start to think about,
you know, what is that ecosystem? What are the overlays,
how do the people process and technology? How are they
connected or not? And how do we move through when
we think of the ever ongoing change that exists within
a workplace and in an ecosystem as it evolves. Because
(07:37):
every time we depart or introduce a new person or
human into an organization, that's also dropping in an element.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Of change.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Change change, right, change, and it's just.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
That employee, even the employed journey right and or even
the concept of the journey of uh in incorporating a
new way of working or a new technology or departing
an old piece of technology. How are we communicating that
or thinking about how people are feeling about that and
and how is that being thought of? When we're thinking
(08:13):
about how we communicate it, we're asking people questions and
are we use using leading questions? Because if I'm in
a place of power asking employees for their feedback on
something very significant and I as, let's say, someone early
on in my career, and you know my pay is
you know, you make the decisions about my pay and
(08:36):
that level of If there's not that level of trust,
if I'm asking questions in a very leading way as
you know, a person of influence and power, and I
may not even intentionally mean to, but if I don't
even have that lack of if I don't even have
that ability to understand how I'm even asking a question,
then the answer is going to be caveatd or coached, couched, sorry, couched,
(09:01):
or less than what the true answer is. So I
mean all of these are layers, yeah, yeah, and an organization.
And that's why it's so important for me to when
we do come in that we have to be thinking
about the people and all the things that make us
complex and how can we start to break that down
(09:21):
and how we drive and think about decisions around process
and technology, And if we aren't having those strategic conversations
with the people in mind, we just diminish our ability
to drive to greater results.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
What I'm gonna I'm gonna let the audience in a
little secret here because those of you that haven't done
the five voices assessment. I know what Mindy's five voices
assessment is, Mindy, and you are that connector creative what
I call pioneer. And what's interesting about that and when
I think you bring uniquely just who you are and
is what I call the future oriented voice. Not everybody
(09:59):
has always fe you're oriented and and I'm not saying
this is good or bad. It is your gift. But
sometimes you get a lot of HR folks that are
very much more present oriented, only dealing with com clients today,
and we need both. It's not either or right. But
what you're what you're you're saying is a lot of
folks they don't look at that, and then they kind
of they're kind of behind the already behind. If they
(10:21):
get somebody that's just going to come in and try
to implement some things and not prepare for the future,
you're you're going to be behind. And so what I
hear you saying is why don't you get ahead of
it and be in a better place supporting your team
rather than lagging right right?
Speaker 2 (10:37):
And and you think that's so hard? Is so?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
And that's where I come alongside with HR leaders and
the blend of coaching, advising, and and and consulting in
different ways. It depends on where they're at, but it's,
you know, often they see they want to be working
in a different way, but they're often missing what is
that next step because they're in a place of overwhelm
(11:01):
often and they've gotten kind of they've gotten lost along
the way sometime. I mean it's different, there's a different
story for each person, but it's it's this desire to
be in a be able to be having different conversations
with their the leaders in the organization, to be showing
up in a different way, to be in that proactive
strategic mindset, but also the day to day has to
(11:25):
get done. And knowing that also that there's just this
level often that they have around the shame and the
guilt of I I I'm not showing up in that
way I need to be, but I don't know how,
and I'm already overwhelmed with what I'm just doing now.
And you know, maybe I am. I often, you know,
(11:45):
when I start working with the individuals, Unfortunately, sometimes the
first question is, you know, maybe I am the problem, Mandy,
Maybe I am Maybe I can't do this anymore? And
I used to love this. I don't love this anymore.
So often it's also just being able, you know, when
we start to shut down in that way, as you know,
no matter what you're in leadership, when we start to
(12:07):
you know, come into a less than mindset, it's like
a scarcity mindset.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
We also start to filter.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
From an emotional place and and we start to not
see the facts anymore, and we start we get we
get some blind spots put in place, and and uh,
sometimes it's about being able to come to a place
of coming alongside of someone and just even you know,
let's take a step back, let's take a breath, and
(12:35):
let's get a different perspective on the situation and what
might be possible here, what can we control and what
would different look like?
Speaker 2 (12:45):
What haven't we tried yet?
Speaker 3 (12:47):
And often it's amazing how people will keep trying the
same thing.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Over and over and over again and.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
And they and it's like and not realizing why it's
not working.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yep. Well that's that's the value and the reason why
we have the business around Table podcast mindy is to
get voices like yours out there, reaching a different group
of folks that you wouldn't hear, and we're saying, hey,
look you don't have to go alone, and here's a voice,
here's another person. In this case, Mindy's helping HR professionals
and coaching and guiding and facilitating them to help be
(13:20):
better and so that you don't get stuck in a
rat And you're like, oh, you know, I didn't really
even realize I had that blind spot. I mean, I'm
always I'm still getting coached because I have blind spots.
I need help along the way, right, yeah, right, we're
talking before we're recording. It's like we're continuing ongoing, but
we're helping those that are coming along, you know, that
(13:41):
are maybe further behind us. And I feel like, you know, Mindy,
you you have such a passion for this and wanted
to see organizations show up healthier and break down, and
like like you said, I think I was listening to
one of your other podcasts. Sometimes people are even you know,
don't even aware or what they're doing in these things,
(14:02):
and so you can help them as a good coach
is just asking, like you said, leading questions and getting
them some perspective and like I couldn't consider that right.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Right, and seeking to understand I think also within sometimes
initially when I'm working with someone that maybe first time
into the leadership role. You know a lot of times
we doubt ourselves when we are taking a new job. Yeah,
it's we often will just start, oh, of course they
know more than me. I'm just going to go do this.
(14:31):
When when it's really even you know, do we are
we clear on even? What does success look like? When
someone's asking us to do something? You know, what what
is it? Have we taken the time? Do we clearly understand? Okay,
that sounds great? Can you help me understand? You know,
when this is done, what is done look like for you?
What does success look like for you in that? And
(14:53):
you know, have we tried in this organization tried to
do something like this before? What didn't work? It's about
that curiosity mindset. But because often in HR we have
all the things, we become the kitchen sink of the organization.
Often where we have we have a lot of things
that shouldn't just be transactional, but often currently are talked
(15:14):
about in a transactional way and should be strategic. But
we're just like going through the motions because we're just
trying to stay We're just trying to stay we're above water,
We're just trying to I mean, yeah, I mean some
of the people often feel like they're drowning or about
to drown, And so how and how can I even
(15:36):
go and try this different thing when I barely can
get through the day And then I feel shame and
guilt because I want to think about how do I
use AI or you know, how do I use human
centered design?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Mandy?
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I heard your podcast, but I don't even know how
to make it through my day? And so how do
we in the moment of where they are, just get
the ability and place to breathe and be able to
shift a perspective and be able to think about, okay,
when the next time someone comes up, you know, with
that next thing to do, how might we stop and
(16:10):
have a conversation and just be curious and ask some
questions that also help them have some realization of Oh,
actually I didn't think about it that way before.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
That's a really good question.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
And maybe what I just asked about isn't the best
next thing for us to do, you know, and start
to co create. It doesn't have to be hr alone
in a closet designing everything. But how are we actually
facilitating with the right leaders and employees.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Co shared solutions.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
You're hitting the nail on the head in Minnie, because
again that's why I want to do on the podcast
because of what you're doing. Honestly, really, because I'm you know,
with my company, steward your business. I'm looking at the
leadership team. I've seen a lot of people come up
from the technical ranks. I've been you know, over twenty
five years myself in professional services, environmental consulting, and a
lot of people that are great at being an engineer
or biologist and archaeologist, whatever the case might be. And
(17:05):
now you're asking them to step in up in the
management and leadership roles and they don't have those skills.
They don't know them. They don't even know, you know,
how to you know, they might be making a misstep
because they don't understand all. I shouldn't talk about it
this way, not because they're trying to do anything wrong,
they're just unaware. And so, like you said, co creating.
I like how you're saying this of like, don't just
(17:25):
wait for HR to do all of it, because it
needed to come from both sides. It's like HR music.
I think support and create an ecosystem, if you will,
a framework for to thrive. But you also you as
as a group manager or leader, department head, what the
case might be, you have to take initiatives as well.
You know your people, you know what they need hopefully
(17:46):
or you get some feedback and say, how can I
support them better? What can I do to help them
along their their great because that's what I find too
many nowadays. There's new people that have again never been
a supervisor. They don't know what that looks like supervisor.
Do I just talk with them once a month? Do I?
You know?
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Not like you're injected with manager skill sets like the
matrix right, We're not uploaded with manager capabilities. And there's
also this sense too for some leaders that now that
I'm a leader, I'm supposed to know all the answers,
like my team support is like for some reason, there's
this lie that we've I mean, I truly believe it's
a lie that leaders are supposed to know all the answers,
(18:26):
that that employees are supposed to expect you to have
all the answers. Some of the best leaders I've worked
with have created the space of asking questions to co
create with their teams because they they come from a
place of I'm only as great as my team, and
you know what, I don't have all the answers. I'm
not the day to day expert, right, and I have
(18:48):
those people on my team.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
And by bringing those.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Experts together, which I love about Agile, the concept of
the agile the uh IF frameworks is because it's all
about teaming and how do we create self managed teams
and how do we bring that level of expertise and
teaming together. But the manager actually by giving all the answers,
whether they're right or wrong.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Actually stops.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
It stops at a level collaboration because now the team
is just relying on the leader for the answers.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
They're not being elevated or they're not.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Their strategic skill set has become stunted because they're just
waiting on someone to give them direction on what to do,
and they are also waiting for the answers from their leader,
which to some point doesn't scale because then you as a.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Leader become a blocker. Right Yep, I guess I could
go on forever. Ap No.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
I mean, that's why you're absolutely right, and that's why
you know where because you and I are very complimentary
to each other here in this conversation, because yes, I
see this happen where there's a stunted like you cannot
scale that. And what I find is the business owners
oftentimes they have not invested in getting somebody like yourself.
(20:08):
Both two sides of that. There's two I say, there's
two sides of a coin here. You have the HR
side that you're talking about, Mindy, that hey, we have
to figure out, Yes, we have to do some compliance
and there's basic things we have to cover, and then
how do we create be more strategic in creating this ecosystem,
and then how do we integrate that with the rest
of the company. Because I find sometimes, particularly if you're
(20:29):
talking people that are not in the admin world, they're
not quote unquote in the office or whatnot, they feel like, hey,
there's us against them kind of mentality at times, or
we don't want to I don't know if I trust them.
You know, they're part of the company, you know what
I mean. You talk a little bit about that, Mandy
and your experience.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
There, and I see that a lot too around you know,
as if we aren't aligned, if we don't have the
trust as we're growing in scaling.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
The smaller we are, the easy it is to communicate.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
We have known ways of working, but as we start
to introduce new people and if we haven't done a
really good job of setting a way of working as
standard operating oh well, whether you want standard operating procedures
don't sound very exciting, but they create that level of clarity,
right of how we do work and how you know,
work gets done here really well? And how often are
(21:22):
we looking at those and refining them as we you know,
are obviously evolving And obviously that.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Doesn't usually happen.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
It's just people have worked together before they start something great.
Then they start growing and scaling, and the more we
we just start to break down with communication and alignment.
And then everyone thinks that they have buy in, but
they don't because we haven't fully vetted something. We haven't
you heard from everyone around the room. Do you have
(21:52):
questions about this? You know, people may not feel comfortable
asking questions, so they're walking away with a half formed
thought on what their wrole is, what's expected of them,
what does success look like? And then we start to
see the siloing, right, we start to see people doing
the best that they can with the limited awareness and
the I think we're aligned.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
But are we?
Speaker 3 (22:14):
And it just as and that just compounds and compounds
and compounds, and I start to see, you know, how
do we pull back from that? Y like once we
lose sight of that, you know what's at the point.
But then there's fear, right then there's fear that comes
in around oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Like.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Is that my fault? Our fault?
Speaker 3 (22:39):
And is there a trust in this room to have
a conversation of like, hey, I'm not sure where we
are anymore, or I'm not sure what's expected of me?
Speaker 2 (22:50):
And do your director reports feel.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Comfortable like asking questions and saying, hey, I'm not sure,
can you help me understand? And the fear just like compounds.
And one of the things with like AI and digital transformation,
and when we have these silos, I've often we've like
in the lack of communication and alignment and we have
(23:12):
all these meetings where actual decisions aren't even being made
and people are going off and people are wondering why
am I like saying the same thing five hundred times
and yet I'm not seeing any progress or I feel
like I'm talking about the same thing over and over again.
But there's a sense of fear. And then when we're
in a place of fear and scarcity, we start to
(23:32):
do the less then behaviors like micromanagement and all the things,
And it's just and I often find fear is like
right now, the fear and the uncertainty and the which
really shuts down the level of creativity and the level
of collaboration of trying things out and with AI and
(23:56):
with the world that we're moving into. These are things
we haven't done for and we're not going to get
it right the first time, so we're going to have
to fail. But do we have the room and the
capability in a human way to even go into that space. No,
because there's lack of trust, there's fear, there's uncertainty, and
(24:17):
if we're not comfortable being having change is uncomfortable. And
if we're already at capacity with our discomfort, because we're
in a working situation that's already has all the things
we talked about, introducing more discomfort was trying something new.
You're not going to say yes to that, but it's
the very thing you need to if you want to
(24:39):
continue to grow and evolve and stay relevant and meet
whatever needs of the people that you're serving as a company,
whether it's a product or you know, a service you're delivering.
And so that's where you start to see the breakdown
and those results, and where you.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Don't see when you do have keep talking no, So
when when you do, and I'm agreeing with you, you know,
I look at alignment, I look at the relationships like
a trust or how communication is being done. It takes
time to rebuild trust in different areas, and so it's
(25:18):
worth it, it's worth it, absolutely worth it, but it
does take time. It's like getting into You didn't get
into debt overnight. I mean you're not You're not going
to get out of it overnight. And I think some
people want a quick fix and they don't realize this
is going to take time.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Time. It's so worth it, right, so worth it.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
But it's uncomfortable and it's hard, and it requires a
level of vulnerability, and.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
That brings up fear for people.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
And that's the very thing our central nervous system, our
survival mode, whether and often it's not even at our
level of consciousness, and then we're avoiding the very things
that we should be leaning into without even realizing it,
and that's often one of the biggest challenges and one
of the things that I've started to see, like the
(26:07):
biggest conversation we should be having as an organization is
almost like doing maybe this is probably not.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
The right word.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
I wish I had a better word. But and if
you disagree with me, by the way, please let me know.
I love to have a disagreement. It's healthy.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
It's healthy conflict.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Patrick GLENCIONI five dyscuptions of a team is about fear,
Like doing a fear audit. How is fear showing up
in this organization? How is fear as a leader keeping
me from being able to truly see the current state
in a way that is factual and not emotional, Like
(26:45):
I feel like that is like one of the things
that I'm starting to try and lean in with is
to really think about how is fear showing up and
is how is fear keeping us from the true conversations
that we need to be having to truly identify what's
getting in the way.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Of us mindy. One thing I've seen as a third
party outside of the company is it gives a different
dynamic there where people sometimes are too close to the issue,
like you're saying, or sensitivity. There's emotions there and they
need to be worked through, but it's it's really hard
when you're in the middle of that. So, you know,
(27:21):
I found, at least for when I'm working with clients,
is I come in as an independent third party and
I can start to kind of see things. Is that
kind of your experience too many where you kind of
separate that out a little bit?
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah, yeah, And I think it's really helpful because then
it's also about how do we facilitate a conversation a
way that doesn't place blame where you like, also aren't
pointing fingers right, because you are a third party and
you're able to think about the about the future and
about moving forward.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
And I think that helps a lot.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Yeah. Well, I think having healthy conflict or you could
use the word as well, I to give you a
different word. Right, We're willing to collide, We're willing to
have those tough conversations if especially if we understand at
the end of the day we're on the same team
and we'll be better off. But there is a bit
(28:15):
of a I think setting the frame, setting the environment,
like you said, Mindy, So to have that so it's
confusive for that because if done well, it can be great,
but it can if not done well, it can do
more harm than good.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Right, Yes, it's one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Yeah, And that's why often, you know, people like I
want to save you know, if we talk about money
and investments, and I like, I hear you and I
love the you know whether because often executives will be like,
oh I can do that, I'd be able to have
that conversation.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
I might. I'm sure you could. But just because you are.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
You know who you are, in the role that you are,
and you're down the team, you're actually a participant of
this conversation, and having an external person come in allows
you to be able to stay in the boat of
one team versus you being the person asking everyone else
(29:16):
to be in the boat. That's a different it just
sets a different context.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yeah. Oh, I've been there myself, Mindy, to your point,
been in that place where I thought I could, just
to your point, say I could do it. Yeah, And
honestly I think I was pretty objective. However, what I
didn't take into a consideration, Mindy, was what other people
their preconceived ideas and notions. No matter what I thought
they had preconceived ways of thinking and being and whatever
(29:42):
they had on me, and I couldn't change that story.
I couldn't change that narrative because that's.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
There, right, yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
So it's like you know, so then you're like okay,
but then you're out of that and you're coming in.
And that's the value having something like yourself as a
third party, coming in alongside and being a resource so
that the person could objectively say, oh, hey, Mandy, can
I talk with you or bend your ear on this?
Because I know I'm I'm tainted it. I don't know
(30:12):
what the we the word you want to but I'm
a party of this. So no matter how much I
try to be objective, yeah, I got some I've just
got to be realized. There's what I want to say,
some kind of conflict of interest if you will.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
And sometimes it is amazing how someone doesn't even realize
how much of an expert they are about the space
that they're in and the solution that they are considering,
but wouldn't have moved forward with because of the lack
(30:48):
of confidence they had in themselves to move it forward,
bring it forward. It would have just remained an idea,
and so man, there's so many times I come alongside
of of HR leaders that will well, what do you think?
I was like, okay, well I could tell you what
(31:09):
I think. Let me ask some questions. They're like, but
I hired you to make this happen, and I'm like, okay.
There are times where I will just jump in and
like because it's an immediate fire and we need to
put it out. But often the beauty is within in
asking a few questions, simple questions, well what do you
(31:30):
think about what my.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Great look like? Because they've thought about it, they've.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Been at these companies for a while, they have experience,
and they will you know, this is kind of what
I was thinking, But I don't really know, you know,
I just say yeah, blob and then they and then
they talk themselves out. But I'm in a moment I'm like, oh, well,
actually no, that is exactly like help me understand why
you why you feels that might be the approach, and like, well,
(31:55):
because I tried this before and kind of what I
learned from that was this, and so you know, I
really do think this might be a good next step,
and well what might it look like to try that
or why why are you hesitant?
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Why might you have thought?
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Because you know it sounded you know, when you came
in to this conversation, it didn't feel like you even
had an answer, like you were you know, you didn't
even know where to begin. And yet this sounds like
you've had some thoughts into this. You know, what might
be keeping you, what might have kept you from like
moving forward with this. And then they look uncover maybe
some some blockers or you know, things that make them
(32:34):
hesitate or have lack of confidence. But the thing is
I didn't give them any answer. Yeah, they had the
answer they had.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
That's the power. Sometimes people don't understand the nuance here.
So I want to point out for a minute what
you're saying, you're acting in this case, maybe you truly
are a coach. A coach is asking questions rather than
a consultant, and a consultant is more telling you. And
I think this is where I think we were being
(33:03):
mindful as when we are consultants. Because to your point,
if you told, if you're very directive and you're saying
do this, do this, do this, and you're not as
clued into the culture and what they've created you might
be doing more harm than yes, you're right, because it's
not theirs either. Like you just said, it's not there,
it's not there. Well, the consultant gave us that. The
(33:24):
consultant told us making your own right.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, that's a big difference.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
It's a huge difference.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
And that's why when I started doing this brickmen, I
birthed agule and HR.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
I saw I had worked with.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Some amazing HR consultants when I was an in house
HR professional and leader, but often that work we was amazing,
but we would have to go back and spend some
hours changing and evolving in order to integrate it into
the workplace and to really think about what is the
(33:57):
change elements that are going to be needed to make
this successful.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
What things might we need to let go? Where do
we start?
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Maybe we shouldn't do all of it at the same time.
And that's where I wanted to do something different. I
wanted to come at it from a blended approach of
HR advising, guiding, mentoring, and elements of coaching. I hesitate
(34:26):
to say coach because I'm not a certified coach, but
impale the context for it to be successful because it's
an ecosystem.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Right, Yeah, yeah, I think we all can. So I'm
going to challenge you another. I hear you don't have
to be certified. I think all of us can be.
If you want to put mentor in there too, it
is a better word. It's a mentor. But coaching is
just being, like you said, curious asking questions. So if
coaching is a word word for people that are listening
to this, but I want to encourage everybody to think,
(34:58):
at some point you should be asking the questions and
not be so consultive and directly.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Yes, Yes, especially when dealing with ecosystems of work. Yes,
because you could do way more harm than good, and
you need to meet them where they're at, Yes, and
understand that current state and really approach it from a
place of curiosity but also of iteration, because there may
(35:24):
be data that we actually don't have, but we need
to try something first in order to find what is
the true signal to inform before we spend a lot
of time and investment and money into something.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yeah, and that definitely mindy. As I hear you say
that it's a total creative voice. Not everybody has that
creative voice, being able to see and innovative and kind
of have the early warning system. And I so appreciate
that because you're willing to try some new things and
in a healthy way, you're going to get people that
might be more what I call a guardians or nursers
(36:01):
that are more resistant to change, but they understand they
value that. They're like, okay, I value it versus you're
just gonna mess up my world. I'm gonna dig my
heels in, no, thank.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
You, right right yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
And I don't want them to ever be like, oh
my goodness, I'm never gonna be able to do this
because the consultant ever taught me how like, and so
that's too, like I wouldn't want anyone to ever rely
on me. Like it's almost I always thinking about it,
as you know Mary Poppins that came in and that
you know, the movie wasn't really about her. It was
how she set up this family to be successful. She
(36:34):
gave the family, the parents, the toolkit and the.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Resources to literally close the.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Gap that they had within that family where they had
that level of brokenness and disconnect. And as they were
floating away, it wasn't like they were crying and saying, oh.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
My goodness, Mary, what are we gonna do without you?
Speaker 3 (36:52):
They were celebrating this beautiful moment as a family flying
their kites for the first time, and and I love that, right,
And so that's where I want to be, Like it's
like Mindy's like behind the scenes, but the leaders and
the HR person, they're like they're celebrating this like moment
together and Mary Poppins isn't even there, Like she's not
(37:14):
even in their celebratory moment.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
She's like flying away.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Yes, yes, that's that's that's a great image. And if
you haven't listened, I haven't listened a song in a while,
but that's a great song to you. Go let's let's
go fly. Okay, oh man, Minnie. I know we're running
short on time on the podcast today and then we
could definitely continue and I'm probably have to have you come.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Back, and I'm always open to that.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeay, yay, no. But I think being a part of
the journey with them and you know, where where do
they need help and coming in and out, And I
think that's what I love about having you here on
the podcast. By the way, I'm gonna make sure everybody
that's listening make sure you know many and that connecting
on LinkedIn. We're going to put links to her, you know,
agile and HR. You guys can connect with her and
(37:59):
she's got amazing seeing other videos on YouTube and other
podcast It's just a great speaker. So we're only getting
a snippet of you, Mindy today, but we're grateful for
it that you can connect with them. As we're wrapping
up the podcast today though, Mindya, I just kind of
you know, we covered a lot of ground, so you know,
I know you're coming alongside those HR professionals with the
companies that are struggling with perhaps maybe they don't have
(38:22):
a full time HR person. They're still trying to figure
out how how do I do this well? Or and
or the people that like how do I show up
as a as a manager and work well with HR?
You know a couple of different things we talked about today,
But what are what are maybe some thoughts final thoughts
right you know that you want to share with our
audience today that you would just say, hey, this is
(38:44):
just if you took nothing else from this conversation today,
take this with you. Hopefully you know this will resonate
with them that what would that be for you?
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Just that you'd want to share a lot if yeah,
because I like I can just I kind of I
have this word vomit in my conversations. It's so it's
easy to get lost in all the things.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
If I were just synthesize just a couple of things.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
It would be like, one, really ask where is fear
showing up for me? Where is it holding me back?
You know, journal a little bit like kind of around that,
And and two you know where maybe is there even
like self awareness is so powerful, like where might there
be some less than moments coming up for you that
might be blocking you from being able to lean into
(39:31):
greater conversations. And that's also around curiosity, because I find
that we fear and less than can keep us from
asking the questions that we need to to greater change.
And so the third thing is the need to be
curious is stop, don't just jump into just doing something
(39:52):
really like lean in and listen, truly listen, full body listen.
And then also it's about co creation. It's about you know,
if we are being siloed in our conversations and our
decision making, where are those key stakeholders across the organization?
(40:12):
Do I know who they are. Do I have true
relationships with them? Do I know them as people? And
how do I start to start to get curious about
how work is done here and how we partner together
to get that work done, to be able to reduce
some of that siloed, siloed feelings.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Oh man, Mandy, you covered you gave us a lot
of gold here today. Thank you so much for being
on the podcast. It was really a pleasure having you here.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Thank you so much. It is such a joy. Thank
you so much. David.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Yeah, absolutely, you guys. I hope you got some good
notes there. Of course, we love it when you leave
a comment, share subscriber value on this. Make sure others
hear it so we can reach others and help them.
I want to be healthier, like you said Mandy earlier,
creating this healthier ecosystem. Whether you're on the HR side
(41:05):
or working with HR, make sure you connect with Mindy again.
Thanks Mindy for being here on the podcast. Come back
again and join us.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
I would always love to do that.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Thanks everybody for listening. Until next time, be well. Thank
you everybody.
All right, welcome back to the Business round Table podcast.
I am your host, David Carr Founders Doing your Business,
where you bring people together to accomplish great things. And
this week we have an amazing new guests, Mini Hankoop.
We're super happily to have you here, Hr Innovator Advisor, Uh,
just an all around amazing person.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
I just loved our first conversation and getting to meet
you and all the great work that you do, and
I wish we had recorded that call, so I'm excited
to finally be able to do that.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Absolutely. You know this podcast we talk a lot of
issues that business owners leaders face, Mindy, and you're on
the cutting edge, I really believe, and we're gonna dive
into that a little bit today. But before we do that,
I like giving people an opportunity to learn a little
bit more about you, your journey as a business owner,
(01:28):
why do you start your company and your specific angle Mindy.
So if you wouldn't mind take us back a little
bit before you started agile and R and what got
you to where you're at today?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, yeah, And I'll try to keep it short.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, ow good.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I have been in the world of HR for over
twenty five years.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I can't believe it.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
It was twenty five years in June, and longer than
I'd like to admit.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I fell into.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
HR through the world of social work, and I have
always just had a calling to help people, to drive
positive impact, to be able to kind of help people
realize what was.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Possible when they didn't see it before.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
And so I think I've always loved being the concept
of being a guide and walking alongside of someone to
help them go to a place they didn't think they
could be before, and taking them from point A to
point B.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
And so I really saw.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
The possibility of that through social work and then saw
just the tie in of social work and workplaces because
really social work is really looking at ecosystems, and each
workplace is its own unique ecosystem, and it's really around
how do we take people from point A or a
group of people from point A to point B and
(02:55):
think about, you know, what is that iterative behavior change
that we are coming alongside of them and being able
to help understand different tools and resources along that journey
to help, you know, move someone to a desired future
state and creating ecosystem awareness of how the ecosystem from
a sociology point of view can help better come alongside
(03:19):
of and be aware of often the invisible within our ecosystems.
And so my husband and I got married when I
was still in college. He's three years older than me.
He was already in the workplace, and as I was
learning the world of social work, he often would overhear
me and say, man, I really wish our HR person
(03:39):
would have asked this, And I was like, HR, talk.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
To me more.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
So he set up a meeting, and from there I
am now I you know, was in the backyard in Seattle,
started at Microsoft and then went on to Expedia and
other amazing organizations, and you know, really, you know, fell
in love with how do we create healthier workplace ecosystems?
(04:03):
Because I truly felt healthier workplaces, healthier communities and society.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, no, I think that's so great, Mindy. And you know,
I remember one of the things we talked about before
we started recording this and why I wanted to have
you on the podcast is but you took HR in
a different direction than I've seen, and I see a
lot of things that's just kind of compliance. It's a
little bit more reactive at times, not so strategic. And
I thought, Okay, you're looking and I love the word ecosystem,
(04:31):
and my background is in biology and nature, and I find, like,
what but there isn't Sometimes people aren't thinking about this
so strategically and thinking it further ahead. And I think
that's where you're unique and a little different than I've
seen in coming and taking all this experience that you've had,
(04:51):
and so you know, what does that look like for
you as you've been moving forward to actually move from
a reactive to more strategic approach eystem.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
I mean, I find it's the ambiguity because it's the
and I love that I worked underneath leaders and within
organizations that really inspired my curiosity. Like I've always been curious.
I've always looked for there's got to be a better way.
You put a line on a paper and always try
(05:24):
to think about how can we make that line better,
especially with the connected group of people, and so how
can we approach this in a different way? And and
for me, the the alignment of technology and people and
driving together towards shared outcomes within the ecosystem of work
(05:46):
it's really how we as peoples, as humans are really
exploring and experiencing this ecosystem, and that is all the things, right,
How are we experiencing how we're.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Doing the work with the different technology.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Tools that are at our resources, who the members are,
our team, our managers, and all the.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Overlay of what's provided.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Within that ecosystem, and how aligned is it or not,
how easy is it or not to use. We alway
down even to the knowledge management and data and accessing tools.
And I've always loved technology because I just always saw
the opportunity for it to help positively impact the ability
(06:29):
for people in workplaces to do, you know, find do
better ways to do their work and get their work done,
but also free them up to do more of what
they wanted to do. Right, Like so many of us
start a job, we have the best of intentions, we
have like all these dreams of what we want to
accomplish and how we want to move the needle forward
(06:51):
within that company. And then how often do we start
to see that someone starts to become disengaged, often because
they're frustrated, they're also disconnect Did they've lost that sense
of clarity, They've lost a sense of how do am
I impacting the end result of like how this company successful?
I don't understand and and that breakdown and it breaks
(07:12):
down in so many different ways.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And is where that strategic piece.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
If we could be more proactive and start to think about,
you know, what is that ecosystem? What are the overlays,
how do the people process and technology? How are they
connected or not? And how do we move through when
we think of the ever ongoing change that exists within
a workplace and in an ecosystem as it evolves. Because
(07:37):
every time we depart or introduce a new person or
human into an organization, that's also dropping in an element.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Of change.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Change change, right, change, and it's just.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
That employee, even the employed journey right and or even
the concept of the journey of uh in incorporating a
new way of working or a new technology or departing
an old piece of technology. How are we communicating that
or thinking about how people are feeling about that and
and how is that being thought of? When we're thinking
(08:13):
about how we communicate it, we're asking people questions and
are we use using leading questions? Because if I'm in
a place of power asking employees for their feedback on
something very significant and I as, let's say, someone early
on in my career, and you know my pay is
you know, you make the decisions about my pay and
(08:36):
that level of If there's not that level of trust,
if I'm asking questions in a very leading way as
you know, a person of influence and power, and I
may not even intentionally mean to, but if I don't
even have that lack of if I don't even have
that ability to understand how I'm even asking a question,
then the answer is going to be caveatd or coached, couched, sorry, couched,
(09:01):
or less than what the true answer is. So I
mean all of these are layers, yeah, yeah, and an organization.
And that's why it's so important for me to when
we do come in that we have to be thinking
about the people and all the things that make us
complex and how can we start to break that down
(09:21):
and how we drive and think about decisions around process
and technology, And if we aren't having those strategic conversations
with the people in mind, we just diminish our ability
to drive to greater results.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
What I'm gonna I'm gonna let the audience in a
little secret here because those of you that haven't done
the five voices assessment. I know what Mindy's five voices
assessment is, Mindy, and you are that connector creative what
I call pioneer. And what's interesting about that and when
I think you bring uniquely just who you are and
is what I call the future oriented voice. Not everybody
(09:59):
has always fe you're oriented and and I'm not saying
this is good or bad. It is your gift. But
sometimes you get a lot of HR folks that are
very much more present oriented, only dealing with com clients today,
and we need both. It's not either or right. But
what you're what you're you're saying is a lot of
folks they don't look at that, and then they kind
of they're kind of behind the already behind. If they
(10:21):
get somebody that's just going to come in and try
to implement some things and not prepare for the future,
you're you're going to be behind. And so what I
hear you saying is why don't you get ahead of
it and be in a better place supporting your team
rather than lagging right right?
Speaker 2 (10:37):
And and you think that's so hard? Is so?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
And that's where I come alongside with HR leaders and
the blend of coaching, advising, and and and consulting in
different ways. It depends on where they're at, but it's,
you know, often they see they want to be working
in a different way, but they're often missing what is
that next step because they're in a place of overwhelm
(11:01):
often and they've gotten kind of they've gotten lost along
the way sometime. I mean it's different, there's a different
story for each person, but it's it's this desire to
be in a be able to be having different conversations
with their the leaders in the organization, to be showing
up in a different way, to be in that proactive
strategic mindset, but also the day to day has to
(11:25):
get done. And knowing that also that there's just this
level often that they have around the shame and the
guilt of I I I'm not showing up in that
way I need to be, but I don't know how,
and I'm already overwhelmed with what I'm just doing now.
And you know, maybe I am. I often, you know,
(11:45):
when I start working with the individuals, Unfortunately, sometimes the
first question is, you know, maybe I am the problem, Mandy,
Maybe I am Maybe I can't do this anymore? And
I used to love this. I don't love this anymore.
So often it's also just being able, you know, when
we start to shut down in that way, as you know,
no matter what you're in leadership, when we start to
(12:07):
you know, come into a less than mindset, it's like
a scarcity mindset.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
We also start to filter.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
From an emotional place and and we start to not
see the facts anymore, and we start we get we
get some blind spots put in place, and and uh,
sometimes it's about being able to come to a place
of coming alongside of someone and just even you know,
let's take a step back, let's take a breath, and
(12:35):
let's get a different perspective on the situation and what
might be possible here, what can we control and what
would different look like?
Speaker 2 (12:45):
What haven't we tried yet?
Speaker 3 (12:47):
And often it's amazing how people will keep trying the
same thing.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Over and over and over again and.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
And they and it's like and not realizing why it's
not working.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Yep. Well that's that's the value and the reason why
we have the business around Table podcast mindy is to
get voices like yours out there, reaching a different group
of folks that you wouldn't hear, and we're saying, hey,
look you don't have to go alone, and here's a voice,
here's another person. In this case, Mindy's helping HR professionals
and coaching and guiding and facilitating them to help be
(13:20):
better and so that you don't get stuck in a
rat And you're like, oh, you know, I didn't really
even realize I had that blind spot. I mean, I'm
always I'm still getting coached because I have blind spots.
I need help along the way, right, yeah, right, we're
talking before we're recording. It's like we're continuing ongoing, but
we're helping those that are coming along, you know, that
(13:41):
are maybe further behind us. And I feel like, you know, Mindy,
you you have such a passion for this and wanted
to see organizations show up healthier and break down, and
like like you said, I think I was listening to
one of your other podcasts. Sometimes people are even you know,
don't even aware or what they're doing in these things,
(14:02):
and so you can help them as a good coach
is just asking, like you said, leading questions and getting
them some perspective and like I couldn't consider that right.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
Right, and seeking to understand I think also within sometimes
initially when I'm working with someone that maybe first time
into the leadership role. You know a lot of times
we doubt ourselves when we are taking a new job. Yeah,
it's we often will just start, oh, of course they
know more than me. I'm just going to go do this.
(14:31):
When when it's really even you know, do we are
we clear on even? What does success look like? When
someone's asking us to do something? You know, what what
is it? Have we taken the time? Do we clearly understand? Okay,
that sounds great? Can you help me understand? You know,
when this is done, what is done look like for you?
What does success look like for you in that? And
(14:53):
you know, have we tried in this organization tried to
do something like this before? What didn't work? It's about
that curiosity mindset. But because often in HR we have
all the things, we become the kitchen sink of the organization.
Often where we have we have a lot of things
that shouldn't just be transactional, but often currently are talked
(15:14):
about in a transactional way and should be strategic. But
we're just like going through the motions because we're just
trying to stay We're just trying to stay we're above water,
We're just trying to I mean, yeah, I mean some
of the people often feel like they're drowning or about
to drown, And so how and how can I even
(15:36):
go and try this different thing when I barely can
get through the day And then I feel shame and
guilt because I want to think about how do I
use AI or you know, how do I use human
centered design?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Mandy?
Speaker 3 (15:48):
I heard your podcast, but I don't even know how
to make it through my day? And so how do
we in the moment of where they are, just get
the ability and place to breathe and be able to
shift a perspective and be able to think about, okay,
when the next time someone comes up, you know, with
that next thing to do, how might we stop and
(16:10):
have a conversation and just be curious and ask some
questions that also help them have some realization of Oh,
actually I didn't think about it that way before.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
That's a really good question.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
And maybe what I just asked about isn't the best
next thing for us to do, you know, and start
to co create. It doesn't have to be hr alone
in a closet designing everything. But how are we actually
facilitating with the right leaders and employees.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Co shared solutions.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
You're hitting the nail on the head in Minnie, because
again that's why I want to do on the podcast
because of what you're doing. Honestly, really, because I'm you know,
with my company, steward your business. I'm looking at the
leadership team. I've seen a lot of people come up
from the technical ranks. I've been you know, over twenty
five years myself in professional services, environmental consulting, and a
lot of people that are great at being an engineer
or biologist and archaeologist, whatever the case might be. And
(17:05):
now you're asking them to step in up in the
management and leadership roles and they don't have those skills.
They don't know them. They don't even know, you know,
how to you know, they might be making a misstep
because they don't understand all. I shouldn't talk about it
this way, not because they're trying to do anything wrong,
they're just unaware. And so, like you said, co creating.
I like how you're saying this of like, don't just
(17:25):
wait for HR to do all of it, because it
needed to come from both sides. It's like HR music.
I think support and create an ecosystem, if you will,
a framework for to thrive. But you also you as
as a group manager or leader, department head, what the
case might be, you have to take initiatives as well.
You know your people, you know what they need hopefully
(17:46):
or you get some feedback and say, how can I
support them better? What can I do to help them
along their their great because that's what I find too
many nowadays. There's new people that have again never been
a supervisor. They don't know what that looks like supervisor.
Do I just talk with them once a month? Do I?
You know?
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Not like you're injected with manager skill sets like the
matrix right, We're not uploaded with manager capabilities. And there's
also this sense too for some leaders that now that
I'm a leader, I'm supposed to know all the answers,
like my team support is like for some reason, there's
this lie that we've I mean, I truly believe it's
a lie that leaders are supposed to know all the answers,
(18:26):
that that employees are supposed to expect you to have
all the answers. Some of the best leaders I've worked
with have created the space of asking questions to co
create with their teams because they they come from a
place of I'm only as great as my team, and
you know what, I don't have all the answers. I'm
not the day to day expert, right, and I have
(18:48):
those people on my team.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
And by bringing those.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Experts together, which I love about Agile, the concept of
the agile the uh IF frameworks is because it's all
about teaming and how do we create self managed teams
and how do we bring that level of expertise and
teaming together. But the manager actually by giving all the answers,
whether they're right or wrong.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Actually stops.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
It stops at a level collaboration because now the team
is just relying on the leader for the answers.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
They're not being elevated or they're not.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Their strategic skill set has become stunted because they're just
waiting on someone to give them direction on what to do,
and they are also waiting for the answers from their leader,
which to some point doesn't scale because then you as a.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Leader become a blocker. Right Yep, I guess I could
go on forever. Ap No.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
I mean, that's why you're absolutely right, and that's why
you know where because you and I are very complimentary
to each other here in this conversation, because yes, I
see this happen where there's a stunted like you cannot
scale that. And what I find is the business owners
oftentimes they have not invested in getting somebody like yourself.
(20:08):
Both two sides of that. There's two I say, there's
two sides of a coin here. You have the HR
side that you're talking about, Mindy, that hey, we have
to figure out, Yes, we have to do some compliance
and there's basic things we have to cover, and then
how do we create be more strategic in creating this ecosystem,
and then how do we integrate that with the rest
of the company. Because I find sometimes, particularly if you're
(20:29):
talking people that are not in the admin world, they're
not quote unquote in the office or whatnot, they feel like, hey,
there's us against them kind of mentality at times, or
we don't want to I don't know if I trust them.
You know, they're part of the company, you know what
I mean. You talk a little bit about that, Mandy
and your experience.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
There, and I see that a lot too around you know,
as if we aren't aligned, if we don't have the
trust as we're growing in scaling.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
The smaller we are, the easy it is to communicate.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
We have known ways of working, but as we start
to introduce new people and if we haven't done a
really good job of setting a way of working as
standard operating oh well, whether you want standard operating procedures
don't sound very exciting, but they create that level of clarity,
right of how we do work and how you know,
work gets done here really well? And how often are
(21:22):
we looking at those and refining them as we you know,
are obviously evolving And obviously that.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Doesn't usually happen.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
It's just people have worked together before they start something great.
Then they start growing and scaling, and the more we
we just start to break down with communication and alignment.
And then everyone thinks that they have buy in, but
they don't because we haven't fully vetted something. We haven't
you heard from everyone around the room. Do you have
(21:52):
questions about this? You know, people may not feel comfortable
asking questions, so they're walking away with a half formed
thought on what their wrole is, what's expected of them,
what does success look like? And then we start to
see the siloing, right, we start to see people doing
the best that they can with the limited awareness and
the I think we're aligned.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
But are we?
Speaker 3 (22:14):
And it just as and that just compounds and compounds
and compounds, and I start to see, you know, how
do we pull back from that? Y like once we
lose sight of that, you know what's at the point.
But then there's fear, right then there's fear that comes
in around oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Like.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Is that my fault? Our fault?
Speaker 3 (22:39):
And is there a trust in this room to have
a conversation of like, hey, I'm not sure where we
are anymore, or I'm not sure what's expected of me?
Speaker 2 (22:50):
And do your director reports feel.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Comfortable like asking questions and saying, hey, I'm not sure,
can you help me understand? And the fear just like compounds.
And one of the things with like AI and digital transformation,
and when we have these silos, I've often we've like
in the lack of communication and alignment and we have
(23:12):
all these meetings where actual decisions aren't even being made
and people are going off and people are wondering why
am I like saying the same thing five hundred times
and yet I'm not seeing any progress or I feel
like I'm talking about the same thing over and over again.
But there's a sense of fear. And then when we're
in a place of fear and scarcity, we start to
(23:32):
do the less then behaviors like micromanagement and all the things,
And it's just and I often find fear is like
right now, the fear and the uncertainty and the which
really shuts down the level of creativity and the level
of collaboration of trying things out and with AI and
(23:56):
with the world that we're moving into. These are things
we haven't done for and we're not going to get
it right the first time, so we're going to have
to fail. But do we have the room and the
capability in a human way to even go into that space. No,
because there's lack of trust, there's fear, there's uncertainty, and
(24:17):
if we're not comfortable being having change is uncomfortable. And
if we're already at capacity with our discomfort, because we're
in a working situation that's already has all the things
we talked about, introducing more discomfort was trying something new.
You're not going to say yes to that, but it's
the very thing you need to if you want to
(24:39):
continue to grow and evolve and stay relevant and meet
whatever needs of the people that you're serving as a company,
whether it's a product or you know, a service you're delivering.
And so that's where you start to see the breakdown
and those results, and where you.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Don't see when you do have keep talking no, So
when when you do, and I'm agreeing with you, you know,
I look at alignment, I look at the relationships like
a trust or how communication is being done. It takes
time to rebuild trust in different areas, and so it's
(25:18):
worth it, it's worth it, absolutely worth it, but it
does take time. It's like getting into You didn't get
into debt overnight. I mean you're not You're not going
to get out of it overnight. And I think some
people want a quick fix and they don't realize this
is going to take time.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Time. It's so worth it, right, so worth it.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
But it's uncomfortable and it's hard, and it requires a
level of vulnerability, and.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
That brings up fear for people.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
And that's the very thing our central nervous system, our
survival mode, whether and often it's not even at our
level of consciousness, and then we're avoiding the very things
that we should be leaning into without even realizing it,
and that's often one of the biggest challenges and one
of the things that I've started to see, like the
(26:07):
biggest conversation we should be having as an organization is
almost like doing maybe this is probably not.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
The right word.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
I wish I had a better word. But and if
you disagree with me, by the way, please let me know.
I love to have a disagreement. It's healthy.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
It's healthy conflict.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Patrick GLENCIONI five dyscuptions of a team is about fear,
Like doing a fear audit. How is fear showing up
in this organization? How is fear as a leader keeping
me from being able to truly see the current state
in a way that is factual and not emotional, Like
(26:45):
I feel like that is like one of the things
that I'm starting to try and lean in with is
to really think about how is fear showing up and
is how is fear keeping us from the true conversations
that we need to be having to truly identify what's
getting in the way.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Of us mindy. One thing I've seen as a third
party outside of the company is it gives a different
dynamic there where people sometimes are too close to the issue,
like you're saying, or sensitivity. There's emotions there and they
need to be worked through, but it's it's really hard
when you're in the middle of that. So, you know,
(27:21):
I found, at least for when I'm working with clients,
is I come in as an independent third party and
I can start to kind of see things. Is that
kind of your experience too many where you kind of
separate that out a little bit?
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah, yeah, And I think it's really helpful because then
it's also about how do we facilitate a conversation a
way that doesn't place blame where you like, also aren't
pointing fingers right, because you are a third party and
you're able to think about the about the future and
about moving forward.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
And I think that helps a lot.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Yeah. Well, I think having healthy conflict or you could
use the word as well, I to give you a
different word. Right, We're willing to collide, We're willing to
have those tough conversations if especially if we understand at
the end of the day we're on the same team
and we'll be better off. But there is a bit
(28:15):
of a I think setting the frame, setting the environment,
like you said, Mindy, So to have that so it's
confusive for that because if done well, it can be great,
but it can if not done well, it can do
more harm than good.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Right, Yes, it's one hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Yeah, And that's why often, you know, people like I
want to save you know, if we talk about money
and investments, and I like, I hear you and I
love the you know whether because often executives will be like,
oh I can do that, I'd be able to have
that conversation.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
I might. I'm sure you could. But just because you are.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
You know who you are, in the role that you are,
and you're down the team, you're actually a participant of
this conversation, and having an external person come in allows
you to be able to stay in the boat of
one team versus you being the person asking everyone else
(29:16):
to be in the boat. That's a different it just
sets a different context.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yeah. Oh, I've been there myself, Mindy, to your point,
been in that place where I thought I could, just
to your point, say I could do it. Yeah, And
honestly I think I was pretty objective. However, what I
didn't take into a consideration, Mindy, was what other people
their preconceived ideas and notions. No matter what I thought
they had preconceived ways of thinking and being and whatever
(29:42):
they had on me, and I couldn't change that story.
I couldn't change that narrative because that's.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
There, right, yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
So it's like you know, so then you're like okay,
but then you're out of that and you're coming in.
And that's the value having something like yourself as a
third party, coming in alongside and being a resource so
that the person could objectively say, oh, hey, Mandy, can
I talk with you or bend your ear on this?
Because I know I'm I'm tainted it. I don't know
(30:12):
what the we the word you want to but I'm
a party of this. So no matter how much I
try to be objective, yeah, I got some I've just
got to be realized. There's what I want to say,
some kind of conflict of interest if you will.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
And sometimes it is amazing how someone doesn't even realize
how much of an expert they are about the space
that they're in and the solution that they are considering,
but wouldn't have moved forward with because of the lack
(30:48):
of confidence they had in themselves to move it forward,
bring it forward. It would have just remained an idea,
and so man, there's so many times I come alongside
of of HR leaders that will well, what do you think?
I was like, okay, well I could tell you what
(31:09):
I think. Let me ask some questions. They're like, but
I hired you to make this happen, and I'm like, okay.
There are times where I will just jump in and
like because it's an immediate fire and we need to
put it out. But often the beauty is within in
asking a few questions, simple questions, well what do you
(31:30):
think about what my.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Great look like? Because they've thought about it, they've.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Been at these companies for a while, they have experience,
and they will you know, this is kind of what
I was thinking, But I don't really know, you know,
I just say yeah, blob and then they and then
they talk themselves out. But I'm in a moment I'm like, oh, well,
actually no, that is exactly like help me understand why
you why you feels that might be the approach, and like, well,
(31:55):
because I tried this before and kind of what I
learned from that was this, and so you know, I
really do think this might be a good next step,
and well what might it look like to try that
or why why are you hesitant?
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Why might you have thought?
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Because you know it sounded you know, when you came
in to this conversation, it didn't feel like you even
had an answer, like you were you know, you didn't
even know where to begin. And yet this sounds like
you've had some thoughts into this. You know, what might
be keeping you, what might have kept you from like
moving forward with this. And then they look uncover maybe
some some blockers or you know, things that make them
(32:34):
hesitate or have lack of confidence. But the thing is
I didn't give them any answer. Yeah, they had the
answer they had.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
That's the power. Sometimes people don't understand the nuance here.
So I want to point out for a minute what
you're saying, you're acting in this case, maybe you truly
are a coach. A coach is asking questions rather than
a consultant, and a consultant is more telling you. And
I think this is where I think we were being
(33:03):
mindful as when we are consultants. Because to your point,
if you told, if you're very directive and you're saying
do this, do this, do this, and you're not as
clued into the culture and what they've created you might
be doing more harm than yes, you're right, because it's
not theirs either. Like you just said, it's not there,
it's not there. Well, the consultant gave us that. The
(33:24):
consultant told us making your own right.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, that's a big difference.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
It's a huge difference.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
And that's why when I started doing this brickmen, I
birthed agule and HR.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
I saw I had worked with.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Some amazing HR consultants when I was an in house
HR professional and leader, but often that work we was amazing,
but we would have to go back and spend some
hours changing and evolving in order to integrate it into
the workplace and to really think about what is the
(33:57):
change elements that are going to be needed to make
this successful.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
What things might we need to let go? Where do
we start?
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Maybe we shouldn't do all of it at the same time.
And that's where I wanted to do something different. I
wanted to come at it from a blended approach of
HR advising, guiding, mentoring, and elements of coaching. I hesitate
(34:26):
to say coach because I'm not a certified coach, but
impale the context for it to be successful because it's
an ecosystem.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Right, Yeah, yeah, I think we all can. So I'm
going to challenge you another. I hear you don't have
to be certified. I think all of us can be.
If you want to put mentor in there too, it
is a better word. It's a mentor. But coaching is
just being, like you said, curious asking questions. So if
coaching is a word word for people that are listening
to this, but I want to encourage everybody to think,
(34:58):
at some point you should be asking the questions and
not be so consultive and directly.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Yes, Yes, especially when dealing with ecosystems of work. Yes,
because you could do way more harm than good, and
you need to meet them where they're at, Yes, and
understand that current state and really approach it from a
place of curiosity but also of iteration, because there may
(35:24):
be data that we actually don't have, but we need
to try something first in order to find what is
the true signal to inform before we spend a lot
of time and investment and money into something.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yeah, and that definitely mindy. As I hear you say
that it's a total creative voice. Not everybody has that
creative voice, being able to see and innovative and kind
of have the early warning system. And I so appreciate
that because you're willing to try some new things and
in a healthy way, you're going to get people that
might be more what I call a guardians or nursers
(36:01):
that are more resistant to change, but they understand they
value that. They're like, okay, I value it versus you're
just gonna mess up my world. I'm gonna dig my
heels in, no, thank.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
You, right right yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
And I don't want them to ever be like, oh
my goodness, I'm never gonna be able to do this
because the consultant ever taught me how like, and so
that's too, like I wouldn't want anyone to ever rely
on me. Like it's almost I always thinking about it,
as you know Mary Poppins that came in and that
you know, the movie wasn't really about her. It was
how she set up this family to be successful. She
(36:34):
gave the family, the parents, the toolkit and the.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Resources to literally close the.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Gap that they had within that family where they had
that level of brokenness and disconnect. And as they were
floating away, it wasn't like they were crying and saying, oh.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
My goodness, Mary, what are we gonna do without you?
Speaker 3 (36:52):
They were celebrating this beautiful moment as a family flying
their kites for the first time, and and I love that, right,
And so that's where I want to be, Like it's
like Mindy's like behind the scenes, but the leaders and
the HR person, they're like they're celebrating this like moment
together and Mary Poppins isn't even there, Like she's not
(37:14):
even in their celebratory moment.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
She's like flying away.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Yes, yes, that's that's that's a great image. And if
you haven't listened, I haven't listened a song in a while,
but that's a great song to you. Go let's let's
go fly. Okay, oh man, Minnie. I know we're running
short on time on the podcast today and then we
could definitely continue and I'm probably have to have you come.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Back, and I'm always open to that.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeay, yay, no. But I think being a part of
the journey with them and you know, where where do
they need help and coming in and out, And I
think that's what I love about having you here on
the podcast. By the way, I'm gonna make sure everybody
that's listening make sure you know many and that connecting
on LinkedIn. We're going to put links to her, you know,
agile and HR. You guys can connect with her and
(37:59):
she's got amazing seeing other videos on YouTube and other
podcast It's just a great speaker. So we're only getting
a snippet of you, Mindy today, but we're grateful for
it that you can connect with them. As we're wrapping
up the podcast today though, Mindya, I just kind of
you know, we covered a lot of ground, so you know,
I know you're coming alongside those HR professionals with the
companies that are struggling with perhaps maybe they don't have
(38:22):
a full time HR person. They're still trying to figure
out how how do I do this well? Or and
or the people that like how do I show up
as a as a manager and work well with HR?
You know a couple of different things we talked about today,
But what are what are maybe some thoughts final thoughts
right you know that you want to share with our
audience today that you would just say, hey, this is
(38:44):
just if you took nothing else from this conversation today,
take this with you. Hopefully you know this will resonate
with them that what would that be for you?
Speaker 3 (38:52):
Just that you'd want to share a lot if yeah,
because I like I can just I kind of I
have this word vomit in my conversations. It's so it's
easy to get lost in all the things.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
If I were just synthesize just a couple of things.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
It would be like, one, really ask where is fear
showing up for me? Where is it holding me back?
You know, journal a little bit like kind of around that,
And and two you know where maybe is there even
like self awareness is so powerful, like where might there
be some less than moments coming up for you that
might be blocking you from being able to lean into
(39:31):
greater conversations. And that's also around curiosity, because I find
that we fear and less than can keep us from
asking the questions that we need to to greater change.
And so the third thing is the need to be
curious is stop, don't just jump into just doing something
(39:52):
really like lean in and listen, truly listen, full body listen.
And then also it's about co creation. It's about you know,
if we are being siloed in our conversations and our
decision making, where are those key stakeholders across the organization?
(40:12):
Do I know who they are. Do I have true
relationships with them? Do I know them as people? And
how do I start to start to get curious about
how work is done here and how we partner together
to get that work done, to be able to reduce
some of that siloed, siloed feelings.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Oh man, Mandy, you covered you gave us a lot
of gold here today. Thank you so much for being
on the podcast. It was really a pleasure having you here.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Thank you so much. It is such a joy. Thank
you so much. David.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Yeah, absolutely, you guys. I hope you got some good
notes there. Of course, we love it when you leave
a comment, share subscriber value on this. Make sure others
hear it so we can reach others and help them.
I want to be healthier, like you said Mandy earlier,
creating this healthier ecosystem. Whether you're on the HR side
(41:05):
or working with HR, make sure you connect with Mindy again.
Thanks Mindy for being here on the podcast. Come back
again and join us.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
I would always love to do that.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Thanks everybody for listening. Until next time, be well. Thank
you everybody.
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