April 21, 2021 • 29 mins
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/carmarthenshire-talking-newspaper--4421754/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Your local radio station, Leslie Talk Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome along to the Nettie Talk Radio podcast. The Senneth
elections are approaching May. Sixteen year olds, the first time
they can vote as well, will not make a big difference.
(00:30):
Who are the politicians, how are they selected, how do
they get paid?
Speaker 1 (00:34):
And what are their duties?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
These are questions we're asking on the podcast. Is there
room for a new politics? Well, I'm pleased to say
that in the studio we have our political analyst Gwnoro
Jones Chrysaw Gwinoro. Now then you've heard a little tastere
(00:56):
of some of those questions. Let's start off with the
first one for these elections twenty twenty one, not the
politician's Gwynoro, can you just give us an insight into
how they are selected? I mean people perceive maybe that
it's as the public who select them, but is that
the case?
Speaker 3 (01:14):
No, far from it. And also the parties themselves have
different ways of doing this and they might say something
about that. At the moment, I've only had two experiences,
which is within the Labor Party and the s Top
Liberal Democrats. And to be fair, they have very open
systems that involves a lot of people yes, within the parties,
not the general public. I can only give you by
(01:36):
one classic example. When I was asked to start for Cammarden,
I had to write to about seventy branches, I had
to go to about twenty or different meetings to talk
in to party members. It had to be Kevin, Nathan, Cambarthen, Whitland, whatever.
Then there would be they would choose which one of
three four people who were put the names forward, which
(01:58):
when they would support as a local branch. Then it
will get into into a general meeting in commanden of
about seventy eighty delegates from the various branches, and they
would choose a candidate. Pretty similar. The same went along
with the Liberal Democrats. I get the impression pricovery is
sometimes a bit more centralized for conservative parties, certainly more
(02:22):
centralized in how it chooses its candidates. We have a
classic example at the last general election. There aremout six
or seven people in the Litry Party who are now
MPs in Wales that were shipped in from England to
stand in seats that they had no connection with Wales whatsoever.
(02:43):
Yet they want them aunlesy Rexham, Prigent and so on.
When you come to the other parties when you come
to propel and abolished assembly and it will keep on. Others, Well,
they haven't got a membership as such, and if they have,
they've only individual membership to a centeral office or something.
They haven't got democratic base at local level at all.
(03:06):
So they're the leaders I would say, blacka Boy Hamilton,
whoever the leader of abolishy assembly is they whichever process
they have, probably through preference personal knowledge of people would
ask people, are you to studying? That's exactly what would
happen to that side that situation.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Let's look at the voting process, and I know we could,
we could dedicate a whole podcast to this, but the
system at the present is we go to the polls,
we vote, and it's the first.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Past the post.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Is that fair when when you consider, as you claim,
really and and we can verify that that more often
than not, the combined votes for various politicians far outway
the votes for the person who is elected.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
That doesn't sound fair to me.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yes, that the first past the post worked up until
around the nineteen sixties. After the nineteen sixties, first past
the post doesn't work at all because of the very
point you say rarely. There are many examples, but rarely
does a politician win fifty percent fifty percent plus one
(04:18):
of those who voted in any constituency. So, yes, you
do have people who are members of Parliament, people who
are members of the Sedith who may be won with
twenty seven, twenty eight to twenty nine percent of the vote,
whereas their opponents at twenty percent, nineteen percent, ten percent.
So the weakness of the system now is in a
multi party situation, the weakness is you do not the
(04:42):
actual member of Parliament or the member of the Seniith
does not reflect the represent the majority of the people
in his or her constituency, and that is a major
failing when it was mainly two parties Tory Labor, as
it was mainly up until the sixties, First past the
post works well. After that it's been very problematic.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Okay, well we can look at that in another way.
We just so again, we can do a whole podcast
on this, but let's just take what you say there
that this person has been elected, and then we have
the opposition to the government. What can they do as
an opposition? You know what, what is their role? What
should they be doing given that they as we said,
(05:27):
may have had the majority of the votes, they still
have a voice.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Don't they. The opposition candidates should be.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
In and after they're elected in government they become the opposition.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Oh I see. After you become a member of parliament,
the first duty of a member of parliament, the first
duty of a member of the said, have no doubt,
is to represent the opinions of the people of their constituency,
not necessarily to listen to the mind, not being told
what to do, but to make us good a representation
(06:00):
as they can. If you do not work at local
level as a member of Parliament or member of the Senate,
if you're not doing your job locally, you are not
fulfilling your main responsibility. Now that's the main issue, and
possibly that is where the problem starts with disillusionment, with disenchantment.
But that's their first duty. The second duty, of course,
(06:23):
is to support their party, and that also becomes a
problem because then there's an issue, now are you going
to be more loyal to your party or to your constituency.
Even in my day, the pressure on a member of
Parliament to total lion follow the loyalty party line was
immense and if you want to break away from it.
(06:45):
You get a lot of pressure put on you not
to do that, to remember you remember who put you here?
Sort of thing. You know you were put here by Yes,
you own your allegiance to the party. And that is
becoming a problem as well life. There's a fear of rebelling.
There are rebels, we know of one or two. It
(07:06):
wills have people rebelled doing the Brexit, doing the Brexit
campaign and doing the Brexit forts in parliament with the
Conservative Party in the end getting rid of twenty members
of parliament, distinguished people because they did not follow the
party line. That is the problem, the party line.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Okay, well, looking at some other areas. Then with this
disillusionment as you talk about, a lot of that comes
down to people complaining, we are paying these people an
awful lot of money. And the emphasis here is on
we are paying these people a lot of money.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Do the public fund all of this? Do politicians get
paid via the public purse?
Speaker 3 (07:49):
In the main well in the may they paid via
the public purse. There's no other way. You know, your
salary is a member of Parliament or member the said
provision for staff, provision for an office their offices are
paid for. They've probably given I don't know what it
was now compared to my day. But as they probably say,
(08:10):
let's give an example of a constituency in Wales, they
might be given one hundred thousand to again staff and
running office, all out of the public purse. Expenses, all
out of the public purse. But of course increasingly interested
organizations fund candidates, they fund members of parliament, they fund
(08:37):
the way they operate to support them in their constituency,
support them with particular campaigns. So yes, in the main
it's the public purse. It's the general public that pays.
But increasingly, in order to gain influence and to help out,
increasingly money comes from other directions to a local party,
or to a local candidate, or to a low their
(09:00):
best whatever.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Well, looking at that, and we're talking about vast sums
of money, really as well, do we get value for money?
Water their duties? Looking at you.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Would know what the duties are.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
But if we look at a job description for a fireman,
a policeman, you know, a teacher and nurse, they're pretty straightforward.
They're quite you know, they're quite comprehensive in their description
as job duties their responsibilities. But with politicians, I'm not
sure that we actually know what their duties are. Can
you give us the main sort of two or three
(09:35):
duties as you see it, that would be you'd be
contractually obliged to carry out as a politician.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Well, I have no doubt. The first one is to
be the voice for your constituency. What I mean by
that you hold surgeries you I used to hold about
I don't know ten surgeries are, but in various parts
will commarden where people came to the surger to present
their problems. We've got to remember people are not into
(10:04):
politics as such. They're certainly not into party politics. The
average person has a lot of personal concerns, personal problems,
personal worries, and the duty of any political representation representative
is to make sure that they do the best they
can in that situation. Now, how you judge whether a
(10:28):
candidate to remember a parliament does that job well is
up to other people. But if they fail in their
local duty doesn't matter. If they get the headlines in
the local papers or the Western mail, or in the
Senate and making speeches, how good are they at representing
the local person? That is, Krushian the second one is
they've got to develop an expertise in something. You can't
(10:52):
be a jack of all trades, although I do fear
these days looking at many of them, they are jack
of all trades people. You've got to specialist. You've got
to decide. Okay, I'm going to try and break an impact.
For me, it was Wales, Welsh economy, it was Europe,
it was the voting system, and it was the constitutional
(11:14):
affairs of Wales. I didn't go to foreign affairs. I
didn't look into wider home affairs issues. Ers of that kite.
You've got to be become a specialist because in the
politics of the modern world, if you don't specialize, you
get ignored.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Well, we'll take a break now and then in the
second half of the program we will be looking at
a new politics. Really can things be done differently in politics?
Speaker 1 (11:43):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Email us editor at Lennellionline dot News. Will be back
in a few moments. Chrys and all, Welcome back to
(12:05):
the Flanelli Online podcast. Still with me in the studio
is Guinoro Jones, our political analyst. May the sixth is
fast approaching the Senate election sixteen year olds. We'll get
(12:27):
the vote for the first time. These people will be
new to politics. So do we need a new form
of politics in Willes To answer that and many more questions,
(12:54):
Grienoro Jones, Welcome back, Guinoro new politics. Let's just look
at we been talking about the way politicians are elected
and the way they're paid and their duties and so on.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
But do you think things could be done differently?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
List Let's just start on the way they're perceived.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
You know a lot of people perceive them as a
drain on society, overpaid voice boxes, for political allegiances, not
truly representing the views of the people. Those are the
negative things, obviously. The positive things are they can make
major impacts, influenced the way we live, the economy, education, hospitals,
(13:33):
you name it.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
They have a lot of power.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Question one for you really is if they get it wrong,
for instance, and if they misbehave, should we have a
contract with them that says that we can actually get
rid of them for that misconduct quite quite quickly.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Well that's a very difficult one. Yes, the answer to
that is yes, But it's not working like that, is it.
Why do we did in years of old? There's far
more principle and if people do on their ways, they
would resign. Resignation is a very rare thing now. They
are all sorts of uh cover ups, camouflages to maintain
(14:11):
and keep people in their situation, in their power in
and that's wrong. If you cross the line, if you
cross the divide, if you make a major mistake, it's
your duty to its resign. You know, you don't need
rules for it. You should have common decency. And there's
a lot of that missing in the politics now compared
to the old days. But yes, there needs to be.
(14:33):
There is a code of conduct, by the way, and
there is even for ministers a ministerial court, and one
of them is you should not be You should not lie.
You should you should always be honest in what you say,
present the facts factually as they are now. Look, we've
known over the last ten years that politicians do lie,
(14:55):
There's no doubt about it. But what happens is we
turn a blind eye to it. The establishment turns applied
eye to it. Now that is causing a lot of disillusionment,
a lot of disgruntlement, and people are wondering, or what's
the point, why am I bothering with this? Game at all.
That is the danger of how we are heading at
(15:18):
the moment.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
You talked about the way candidates were selected, and it's
quite a sort of a long and complicated process from
what you said there. But do you think new politics
we should have far more involvement from public paranills, community representation,
you know, a cross representation on paranils. Let's say, solicitors
as date agents, nurses, doctors, the very people that all
(15:41):
of those key issues that they will be representing and
speaking about could have a part to play in in
selecting the candidate. Let's look at the candidate process. Do
you think that's worth considering?
Speaker 3 (15:55):
No doubt, I think we should adopt what part of
what happens and other countries in the world whereby a
candidate is selected, where for instance, let's say I'm putting
my name forward for command as a candidate. Now it's
not just a party members that should be allowed to
choose the candidate, but also party supporters. They could register
(16:19):
I want to be involved in selecting the Labor candidate
for command, or the Tory Party candidate for commanden or whatever.
I want to be involved, So you could register. Now
that happens in America. By the way, you know, people
can register to be on the democratic decision making process
in a given state for a senator or a House
(16:39):
of Representative person. Now, that should happen, and it's quite
correct to do it. It should not be a sort
of a niche club of party members alone, because we
need to involve the public more in all this. So
that's one way where ordinary people who say support labor
(17:00):
can say, look, I want to be involved in this process.
Can I register to be in that decision making process?
I would strongly encourage that. It's going to take a
while to get their mind, because why the local party
loses his control, doesn't it? There is the local mafioso
might use those terms. They would lose control if instead
(17:22):
of thirty people choose the candidate, a thousand people choose
the candidate. Now, that is losing. Things are going a
bit too far from them. But that needs to happen.
But also, you see, there are other things that need
to happen. We need to have the most obvious thing
of all is political reform of the voting system, where
(17:43):
we say, come the Senate, the election now in May
in Kaneshi, you just don't vote applied or labor just
one vote. You vote one, two, three, four, you select
in or of preference. So therefore, in the end, by elimination,
(18:04):
the number one will get over fifty percent of the vote. Now,
so voting reform is required not just for the said
but also for local government. By the way, people forget
that we concentrate a lot on the sea the Westminster.
The biggest area of all that leads voting reform is
(18:27):
local government.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Let's look at what we touched on earlier as well,
and this kind of contract of being able to get
rid of people? Do do you think that we should have?
I know, did the MP swear some form of oath
to the queen and laden as well? Should we have
the same oath, the same pledge to the public and
a contract with the people which determines whether or not
(18:49):
we can get rid of these people if we saw desire.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Gosh, you're asking questions that the answer is yes, of course.
But what were members of parliament called the honorable member?
What was a cabinet minister caller? What is the right
honorable member? The word was honorable? Okay, The big question
these days is does honor still apply in politics? I
(19:16):
remember a day when he did. There was a guy
once who had to resign because he gave his trade
ticket to his wife to use free pass, and he resigned.
Think of all the things that go on these days,
and people just don't resign for they don't even consider resigning.
They try to find a way out of it. Yes,
(19:37):
of course, there needs to be a system where there
is an oath of allegiance or loyalty and honor. That's
the issue for me is honor for me to for
a politician to lie and knowingly lie, that's the worst
thing of all. We all can make mistakes, we all
can pick up the wrong facts. We all can say
(19:58):
things sometimes that should they're set. But what do you
knowingly mislead? What do you knowingly lie? And there's plenty
of examples of it now. That is where politics has
a very bad name.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
You've been working with us, you know, on the news
for quite some time now, and I guess you're getting
a picture really of what the main issues which affect
whales and certainly command Ensure are. It's housing, its education,
its employment, its health, homelessness, drugs and so on.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
That these are.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
The standout issues within every community. Almost a cross whales.
Do you think that politicians give the right amount of
weight to these issues or do you think they can
go off on these tangents and talk about cycling and
artificial intelligence and relief roads and all sorts of things,
(20:53):
things that most people would be saying, Hang on a minute,
my bins aren't being collected, my road is full of porthals,
I haven't got to park for my children to play in.
I haven't got a job, there's no employment in the area.
I can't get any training. These are a lot of
the issues. Do you think that there should be an
opportunity for the public to table their issues on a weekly, monthly,
(21:16):
annual basis and say, look, you can talk about what
you like, you can say what you like, you can do,
but please address these issues. This is what we see.
These are the issues we see as the most important
that are affecting us in your community as are elected representative.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Yeah, well, many of those issues you mentioned there now, Allen,
are really for local councilors. That is why I said
earlier there's as much need to reform how people are
elected and voted upon in local elections as it is
for the sedive right. All many of those things are
not for the member of the Satith. They're for local
(21:55):
councilors to get involved with. My experience was that you
want dragged into talking about those things because of the
inadequacies of the local sin That was a complicated one
that talk as well. Yes, of course people don't pay
attention and the questions should be why should they in
(22:16):
the first place to make big issues. They have concerns
about bread on the table. They're concerned about the wage,
they're concerned about a job. They're concerned about the health
of their children. They're concerned about the education of their children.
Those are the bread and butter issues. But let's not
pretend or think that politicians don't talk and work in
(22:38):
that area. They do. To be fair to them, they
do do that. What is being lost is that when
it comes to the main media, it's as much the
media's fault as anybody. They don't want to know about
these local issues. You know, that is what is so
good about what you're doing. You are concentrating on local issues.
But the main media in Wale want to go for
(23:01):
the high ground. Do they the big issues education, roads, housing,
as opposed to ordinary issues. It's a very difficult one
to resolve choosing between one or the other. Don't think
that because they don't get publicity about them, that the
ABS is not working at local level. They do, they do,
(23:24):
but they don't just get publicity much for that because
that's not what the media want to do.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Let's look at that then, because you talked about local
democracy and so on, and a lot of the parties
now are calling for that. They want to decentralize power,
they want to give more power to the local decision
making process within local authorities. But again that as you say,
sometimes that's inadequate. Sometimes, as we've seen historically, that can
be corrupt. And we do follow the same process there,
(23:53):
don't mean it's the same selection for candidature. The party
puts forward somebody based on interviews and so on. They're
not necessarily the people that we want to represent us
as counselors. They more often than not they've just resigned
from a well paid job and go into it because
it's a sort of twenty grand plus, you know, wage
for attending a meeting once a week, and really they
(24:15):
don't hold surgery, they don't do anything else, So you
would be calling for far more reform there and maybe
the same applying the same new politics to that then
would you yes?
Speaker 3 (24:27):
But you know what I mean. Look well, as with
many other things in life, I'm probably way way way
ahead of my time to see these things. I doubt
if I'll be around on this earth when all these
things happen. Yes, it tends to be, doesn't it that
when you come to local council level, A lot of
people don't understand. By the way, it's a problem for
(24:48):
to get candidates. Often very many sees at local level
that have uncontested elections because people just don't want to
stand now. But the main issue for me is it's
not just about party loyalty. You mean, that's the one
that gets me most. If you are loyal at local level,
(25:10):
if you're a party member at local level, in whatever
party it is, you stand the chance of being become
the council candidate or whatever. But they need to think
broader than that. They need to start thinking about the
best person to be the candidate. That's the one, not
whether he's been a good party member for thirty years
and he deserves his chance, he should become a counselor
(25:32):
or whatever. Are we picky the right people. Are we
choosing the right quality of people? Are we choosing people
with the right abilities? That's these are the issues that
are missing from my perspective.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
We are seeing now this is an historic election for
many reasons, and the main one really being that we
have these sixteen year olds being able to vote. You
said you may not be on this earth for much longer.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
You won't be for a while.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
But the change is what happened in that.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
And you won't see the changes. But do you think
then that we will see? I may see and these
young people may see a new movement, a new political
movement from this new generation of sixteen year olds who say,
Labor it's not out politics. Conservative is not all politics.
UKIP is not a politicsl Comany is not a politics.
(26:25):
Our politics is young people's concerns, young people's issues. They
have been left out for so long. Here we have
an opportunity possibly for a new party representing young people.
Do you think that will come about in the next
twenty twenty five years?
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Now, Look, you're asking the wrong person. I'm an expert
at setting up a new party, which I did with
the SDP in Wales in the nineteen eighties and we
did well and eventually we got nowhere, even though we
got twenty two to twenty three percent of the vote.
Things are gradually changing, but it's gradual. That's the problem.
The young people of today, first of all, look a
(27:04):
good percentage of them of not registered to vote yet,
the sixties seventy year olds for the Senate of the election.
Now they've got to get involved and they all should
be registering to vote, every one of them, because it's important,
because it's their future. So yes, developing the new politics
doesn't necessarily mean new parties always because the opposition to
(27:29):
creating new parties is huge, and you're going to find
that out. Probably Propel is finding that out, Glad is
finding that out. You keep has found that out. They
did well on one issue, which was Brexit. Brexit out
of the way, you keep our disappearing out of the
scene because the traditional way of politics holds. And to
(27:54):
try and change that what we need, and slowly is happening.
There is greater public concert tasan going on decision making
at local level. We see it all the time, or disuse.
It is happening. There is talk and it is happening
of having people's assemblies citizens assemblies. There is talk and
it is happening of an youth assembly, an youth parliament.
(28:17):
We are moving in the directs, the right direction, but
it's going to take an all mighty long time to
get a complete overhaul of the system, and setting up
a new party is very, very difficult, I assure you.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Well, Glenora, it's been a pleasure as the usual speaking
to you and delving into your experience, long and varied
it is as a politician and as a political analyst
and journalist here with us at Planet Online. Well, we
(28:59):
hope you enjoyed that cast, a sort of brief overview
of politicians and politics, not everyone's cup of tea.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
As we know, they're out.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Knocking your doors as we speak in the Commandery all
across Wales. Politicians are vying for your vote. Please do
get in touch with us and give us your views.
We'd love to hear from you at editor at clinellionline
dot news. You've been listening to the Clinette Online podcast
(29:33):
with me, Alan Evans and Greenoro Jones talking about Thanks
for listening now,
Your local radio station, Leslie Talk Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Welcome along to the Nettie Talk Radio podcast. The Senneth
elections are approaching May. Sixteen year olds, the first time
they can vote as well, will not make a big difference.
(00:30):
Who are the politicians, how are they selected, how do
they get paid?
Speaker 1 (00:34):
And what are their duties?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
These are questions we're asking on the podcast. Is there
room for a new politics? Well, I'm pleased to say
that in the studio we have our political analyst Gwnoro
Jones Chrysaw Gwinoro. Now then you've heard a little tastere
(00:56):
of some of those questions. Let's start off with the
first one for these elections twenty twenty one, not the
politician's Gwynoro, can you just give us an insight into
how they are selected? I mean people perceive maybe that
it's as the public who select them, but is that
the case?
Speaker 3 (01:14):
No, far from it. And also the parties themselves have
different ways of doing this and they might say something
about that. At the moment, I've only had two experiences,
which is within the Labor Party and the s Top
Liberal Democrats. And to be fair, they have very open
systems that involves a lot of people yes, within the parties,
not the general public. I can only give you by
(01:36):
one classic example. When I was asked to start for Cammarden,
I had to write to about seventy branches, I had
to go to about twenty or different meetings to talk
in to party members. It had to be Kevin, Nathan, Cambarthen, Whitland, whatever.
Then there would be they would choose which one of
three four people who were put the names forward, which
(01:58):
when they would support as a local branch. Then it
will get into into a general meeting in commanden of
about seventy eighty delegates from the various branches, and they
would choose a candidate. Pretty similar. The same went along
with the Liberal Democrats. I get the impression pricovery is
sometimes a bit more centralized for conservative parties, certainly more
(02:22):
centralized in how it chooses its candidates. We have a
classic example at the last general election. There aremout six
or seven people in the Litry Party who are now
MPs in Wales that were shipped in from England to
stand in seats that they had no connection with Wales whatsoever.
(02:43):
Yet they want them aunlesy Rexham, Prigent and so on.
When you come to the other parties when you come
to propel and abolished assembly and it will keep on. Others, Well,
they haven't got a membership as such, and if they have,
they've only individual membership to a centeral office or something.
They haven't got democratic base at local level at all.
(03:06):
So they're the leaders I would say, blacka Boy Hamilton,
whoever the leader of abolishy assembly is they whichever process
they have, probably through preference personal knowledge of people would
ask people, are you to studying? That's exactly what would
happen to that side that situation.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Let's look at the voting process, and I know we could,
we could dedicate a whole podcast to this, but the
system at the present is we go to the polls,
we vote, and it's the first.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Past the post.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Is that fair when when you consider, as you claim,
really and and we can verify that that more often
than not, the combined votes for various politicians far outway
the votes for the person who is elected.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
That doesn't sound fair to me.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yes, that the first past the post worked up until
around the nineteen sixties. After the nineteen sixties, first past
the post doesn't work at all because of the very
point you say rarely. There are many examples, but rarely
does a politician win fifty percent fifty percent plus one
(04:18):
of those who voted in any constituency. So, yes, you
do have people who are members of Parliament, people who
are members of the Sedith who may be won with
twenty seven, twenty eight to twenty nine percent of the vote,
whereas their opponents at twenty percent, nineteen percent, ten percent.
So the weakness of the system now is in a
multi party situation, the weakness is you do not the
(04:42):
actual member of Parliament or the member of the Seniith
does not reflect the represent the majority of the people
in his or her constituency, and that is a major
failing when it was mainly two parties Tory Labor, as
it was mainly up until the sixties, First past the
post works well. After that it's been very problematic.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Okay, well we can look at that in another way.
We just so again, we can do a whole podcast
on this, but let's just take what you say there
that this person has been elected, and then we have
the opposition to the government. What can they do as
an opposition? You know what, what is their role? What
should they be doing given that they as we said,
(05:27):
may have had the majority of the votes, they still
have a voice.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Don't they. The opposition candidates should be.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
In and after they're elected in government they become the opposition.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Oh I see. After you become a member of parliament,
the first duty of a member of parliament, the first
duty of a member of the said, have no doubt,
is to represent the opinions of the people of their constituency,
not necessarily to listen to the mind, not being told
what to do, but to make us good a representation
(06:00):
as they can. If you do not work at local
level as a member of Parliament or member of the Senate,
if you're not doing your job locally, you are not
fulfilling your main responsibility. Now that's the main issue, and
possibly that is where the problem starts with disillusionment, with disenchantment.
But that's their first duty. The second duty, of course,
(06:23):
is to support their party, and that also becomes a
problem because then there's an issue, now are you going
to be more loyal to your party or to your constituency.
Even in my day, the pressure on a member of
Parliament to total lion follow the loyalty party line was
immense and if you want to break away from it.
(06:45):
You get a lot of pressure put on you not
to do that, to remember you remember who put you here?
Sort of thing. You know you were put here by Yes,
you own your allegiance to the party. And that is
becoming a problem as well life. There's a fear of rebelling.
There are rebels, we know of one or two. It
(07:06):
wills have people rebelled doing the Brexit, doing the Brexit
campaign and doing the Brexit forts in parliament with the
Conservative Party in the end getting rid of twenty members
of parliament, distinguished people because they did not follow the
party line. That is the problem, the party line.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Okay, well, looking at some other areas. Then with this
disillusionment as you talk about, a lot of that comes
down to people complaining, we are paying these people an
awful lot of money. And the emphasis here is on
we are paying these people a lot of money.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Do the public fund all of this? Do politicians get
paid via the public purse?
Speaker 3 (07:49):
In the main well in the may they paid via
the public purse. There's no other way. You know, your
salary is a member of Parliament or member the said
provision for staff, provision for an office their offices are
paid for. They've probably given I don't know what it
was now compared to my day. But as they probably say,
(08:10):
let's give an example of a constituency in Wales, they
might be given one hundred thousand to again staff and
running office, all out of the public purse. Expenses, all
out of the public purse. But of course increasingly interested
organizations fund candidates, they fund members of parliament, they fund
(08:37):
the way they operate to support them in their constituency,
support them with particular campaigns. So yes, in the main
it's the public purse. It's the general public that pays.
But increasingly, in order to gain influence and to help out,
increasingly money comes from other directions to a local party,
or to a local candidate, or to a low their
(09:00):
best whatever.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Well, looking at that, and we're talking about vast sums
of money, really as well, do we get value for money?
Water their duties? Looking at you.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Would know what the duties are.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
But if we look at a job description for a fireman,
a policeman, you know, a teacher and nurse, they're pretty straightforward.
They're quite you know, they're quite comprehensive in their description
as job duties their responsibilities. But with politicians, I'm not
sure that we actually know what their duties are. Can
you give us the main sort of two or three
(09:35):
duties as you see it, that would be you'd be
contractually obliged to carry out as a politician.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Well, I have no doubt. The first one is to
be the voice for your constituency. What I mean by
that you hold surgeries you I used to hold about
I don't know ten surgeries are, but in various parts
will commarden where people came to the surger to present
their problems. We've got to remember people are not into
(10:04):
politics as such. They're certainly not into party politics. The
average person has a lot of personal concerns, personal problems,
personal worries, and the duty of any political representation representative
is to make sure that they do the best they
can in that situation. Now, how you judge whether a
(10:28):
candidate to remember a parliament does that job well is
up to other people. But if they fail in their
local duty doesn't matter. If they get the headlines in
the local papers or the Western mail, or in the
Senate and making speeches, how good are they at representing
the local person? That is, Krushian the second one is
they've got to develop an expertise in something. You can't
(10:52):
be a jack of all trades, although I do fear
these days looking at many of them, they are jack
of all trades people. You've got to specialist. You've got
to decide. Okay, I'm going to try and break an impact.
For me, it was Wales, Welsh economy, it was Europe,
it was the voting system, and it was the constitutional
(11:14):
affairs of Wales. I didn't go to foreign affairs. I
didn't look into wider home affairs issues. Ers of that kite.
You've got to be become a specialist because in the
politics of the modern world, if you don't specialize, you
get ignored.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Well, we'll take a break now and then in the
second half of the program we will be looking at
a new politics. Really can things be done differently in politics?
Speaker 1 (11:43):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Email us editor at Lennellionline dot News. Will be back
in a few moments. Chrys and all, Welcome back to
(12:05):
the Flanelli Online podcast. Still with me in the studio
is Guinoro Jones, our political analyst. May the sixth is
fast approaching the Senate election sixteen year olds. We'll get
(12:27):
the vote for the first time. These people will be
new to politics. So do we need a new form
of politics in Willes To answer that and many more questions,
(12:54):
Grienoro Jones, Welcome back, Guinoro new politics. Let's just look
at we been talking about the way politicians are elected
and the way they're paid and their duties and so on.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
But do you think things could be done differently?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
List Let's just start on the way they're perceived.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
You know a lot of people perceive them as a
drain on society, overpaid voice boxes, for political allegiances, not
truly representing the views of the people. Those are the
negative things, obviously. The positive things are they can make
major impacts, influenced the way we live, the economy, education, hospitals,
(13:33):
you name it.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
They have a lot of power.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Question one for you really is if they get it wrong,
for instance, and if they misbehave, should we have a
contract with them that says that we can actually get
rid of them for that misconduct quite quite quickly.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Well that's a very difficult one. Yes, the answer to
that is yes, But it's not working like that, is it.
Why do we did in years of old? There's far
more principle and if people do on their ways, they
would resign. Resignation is a very rare thing now. They
are all sorts of uh cover ups, camouflages to maintain
(14:11):
and keep people in their situation, in their power in
and that's wrong. If you cross the line, if you
cross the divide, if you make a major mistake, it's
your duty to its resign. You know, you don't need
rules for it. You should have common decency. And there's
a lot of that missing in the politics now compared
to the old days. But yes, there needs to be.
(14:33):
There is a code of conduct, by the way, and
there is even for ministers a ministerial court, and one
of them is you should not be You should not lie.
You should you should always be honest in what you say,
present the facts factually as they are now. Look, we've
known over the last ten years that politicians do lie,
(14:55):
There's no doubt about it. But what happens is we
turn a blind eye to it. The establishment turns applied
eye to it. Now that is causing a lot of disillusionment,
a lot of disgruntlement, and people are wondering, or what's
the point, why am I bothering with this? Game at all.
That is the danger of how we are heading at
(15:18):
the moment.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
You talked about the way candidates were selected, and it's
quite a sort of a long and complicated process from
what you said there. But do you think new politics
we should have far more involvement from public paranills, community representation,
you know, a cross representation on paranils. Let's say, solicitors
as date agents, nurses, doctors, the very people that all
(15:41):
of those key issues that they will be representing and
speaking about could have a part to play in in
selecting the candidate. Let's look at the candidate process. Do
you think that's worth considering?
Speaker 3 (15:55):
No doubt, I think we should adopt what part of
what happens and other countries in the world whereby a
candidate is selected, where for instance, let's say I'm putting
my name forward for command as a candidate. Now it's
not just a party members that should be allowed to
choose the candidate, but also party supporters. They could register
(16:19):
I want to be involved in selecting the Labor candidate
for command, or the Tory Party candidate for commanden or whatever.
I want to be involved, So you could register. Now
that happens in America. By the way, you know, people
can register to be on the democratic decision making process
in a given state for a senator or a House
(16:39):
of Representative person. Now, that should happen, and it's quite
correct to do it. It should not be a sort
of a niche club of party members alone, because we
need to involve the public more in all this. So
that's one way where ordinary people who say support labor
(17:00):
can say, look, I want to be involved in this process.
Can I register to be in that decision making process?
I would strongly encourage that. It's going to take a
while to get their mind, because why the local party
loses his control, doesn't it? There is the local mafioso
might use those terms. They would lose control if instead
(17:22):
of thirty people choose the candidate, a thousand people choose
the candidate. Now, that is losing. Things are going a
bit too far from them. But that needs to happen.
But also, you see, there are other things that need
to happen. We need to have the most obvious thing
of all is political reform of the voting system, where
(17:43):
we say, come the Senate, the election now in May
in Kaneshi, you just don't vote applied or labor just
one vote. You vote one, two, three, four, you select
in or of preference. So therefore, in the end, by elimination,
(18:04):
the number one will get over fifty percent of the vote. Now,
so voting reform is required not just for the said
but also for local government. By the way, people forget
that we concentrate a lot on the sea the Westminster.
The biggest area of all that leads voting reform is
(18:27):
local government.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Let's look at what we touched on earlier as well,
and this kind of contract of being able to get
rid of people? Do do you think that we should have?
I know, did the MP swear some form of oath
to the queen and laden as well? Should we have
the same oath, the same pledge to the public and
a contract with the people which determines whether or not
(18:49):
we can get rid of these people if we saw desire.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Gosh, you're asking questions that the answer is yes, of course.
But what were members of parliament called the honorable member?
What was a cabinet minister caller? What is the right
honorable member? The word was honorable? Okay, The big question
these days is does honor still apply in politics? I
(19:16):
remember a day when he did. There was a guy
once who had to resign because he gave his trade
ticket to his wife to use free pass, and he resigned.
Think of all the things that go on these days,
and people just don't resign for they don't even consider resigning.
They try to find a way out of it. Yes,
(19:37):
of course, there needs to be a system where there
is an oath of allegiance or loyalty and honor. That's
the issue for me is honor for me to for
a politician to lie and knowingly lie, that's the worst
thing of all. We all can make mistakes, we all
can pick up the wrong facts. We all can say
(19:58):
things sometimes that should they're set. But what do you
knowingly mislead? What do you knowingly lie? And there's plenty
of examples of it now. That is where politics has
a very bad name.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
You've been working with us, you know, on the news
for quite some time now, and I guess you're getting
a picture really of what the main issues which affect
whales and certainly command Ensure are. It's housing, its education,
its employment, its health, homelessness, drugs and so on.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
That these are.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
The standout issues within every community. Almost a cross whales.
Do you think that politicians give the right amount of
weight to these issues or do you think they can
go off on these tangents and talk about cycling and
artificial intelligence and relief roads and all sorts of things,
(20:53):
things that most people would be saying, Hang on a minute,
my bins aren't being collected, my road is full of porthals,
I haven't got to park for my children to play in.
I haven't got a job, there's no employment in the area.
I can't get any training. These are a lot of
the issues. Do you think that there should be an
opportunity for the public to table their issues on a weekly, monthly,
(21:16):
annual basis and say, look, you can talk about what
you like, you can say what you like, you can do,
but please address these issues. This is what we see.
These are the issues we see as the most important
that are affecting us in your community as are elected representative.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Yeah, well, many of those issues you mentioned there now, Allen,
are really for local councilors. That is why I said
earlier there's as much need to reform how people are
elected and voted upon in local elections as it is
for the sedive right. All many of those things are
not for the member of the Satith. They're for local
(21:55):
councilors to get involved with. My experience was that you
want dragged into talking about those things because of the
inadequacies of the local sin That was a complicated one
that talk as well. Yes, of course people don't pay
attention and the questions should be why should they in
(22:16):
the first place to make big issues. They have concerns
about bread on the table. They're concerned about the wage,
they're concerned about a job. They're concerned about the health
of their children. They're concerned about the education of their children.
Those are the bread and butter issues. But let's not
pretend or think that politicians don't talk and work in
(22:38):
that area. They do. To be fair to them, they
do do that. What is being lost is that when
it comes to the main media, it's as much the
media's fault as anybody. They don't want to know about
these local issues. You know, that is what is so
good about what you're doing. You are concentrating on local issues.
But the main media in Wale want to go for
(23:01):
the high ground. Do they the big issues education, roads, housing,
as opposed to ordinary issues. It's a very difficult one
to resolve choosing between one or the other. Don't think
that because they don't get publicity about them, that the
ABS is not working at local level. They do, they do,
(23:24):
but they don't just get publicity much for that because
that's not what the media want to do.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Let's look at that then, because you talked about local
democracy and so on, and a lot of the parties
now are calling for that. They want to decentralize power,
they want to give more power to the local decision
making process within local authorities. But again that as you say,
sometimes that's inadequate. Sometimes, as we've seen historically, that can
be corrupt. And we do follow the same process there,
(23:53):
don't mean it's the same selection for candidature. The party
puts forward somebody based on interviews and so on. They're
not necessarily the people that we want to represent us
as counselors. They more often than not they've just resigned
from a well paid job and go into it because
it's a sort of twenty grand plus, you know, wage
for attending a meeting once a week, and really they
(24:15):
don't hold surgery, they don't do anything else, So you
would be calling for far more reform there and maybe
the same applying the same new politics to that then
would you yes?
Speaker 3 (24:27):
But you know what I mean. Look well, as with
many other things in life, I'm probably way way way
ahead of my time to see these things. I doubt
if I'll be around on this earth when all these
things happen. Yes, it tends to be, doesn't it that
when you come to local council level, A lot of
people don't understand. By the way, it's a problem for
(24:48):
to get candidates. Often very many sees at local level
that have uncontested elections because people just don't want to
stand now. But the main issue for me is it's
not just about party loyalty. You mean, that's the one
that gets me most. If you are loyal at local level,
(25:10):
if you're a party member at local level, in whatever
party it is, you stand the chance of being become
the council candidate or whatever. But they need to think
broader than that. They need to start thinking about the
best person to be the candidate. That's the one, not
whether he's been a good party member for thirty years
and he deserves his chance, he should become a counselor
(25:32):
or whatever. Are we picky the right people. Are we
choosing the right quality of people? Are we choosing people
with the right abilities? That's these are the issues that
are missing from my perspective.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
We are seeing now this is an historic election for
many reasons, and the main one really being that we
have these sixteen year olds being able to vote. You
said you may not be on this earth for much longer.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
You won't be for a while.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
But the change is what happened in that.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
And you won't see the changes. But do you think
then that we will see? I may see and these
young people may see a new movement, a new political
movement from this new generation of sixteen year olds who say,
Labor it's not out politics. Conservative is not all politics.
UKIP is not a politicsl Comany is not a politics.
(26:25):
Our politics is young people's concerns, young people's issues. They
have been left out for so long. Here we have
an opportunity possibly for a new party representing young people.
Do you think that will come about in the next
twenty twenty five years?
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Now, Look, you're asking the wrong person. I'm an expert
at setting up a new party, which I did with
the SDP in Wales in the nineteen eighties and we
did well and eventually we got nowhere, even though we
got twenty two to twenty three percent of the vote.
Things are gradually changing, but it's gradual. That's the problem.
The young people of today, first of all, look a
(27:04):
good percentage of them of not registered to vote yet,
the sixties seventy year olds for the Senate of the election.
Now they've got to get involved and they all should
be registering to vote, every one of them, because it's important,
because it's their future. So yes, developing the new politics
doesn't necessarily mean new parties always because the opposition to
(27:29):
creating new parties is huge, and you're going to find
that out. Probably Propel is finding that out, Glad is
finding that out. You keep has found that out. They
did well on one issue, which was Brexit. Brexit out
of the way, you keep our disappearing out of the
scene because the traditional way of politics holds. And to
(27:54):
try and change that what we need, and slowly is happening.
There is greater public concert tasan going on decision making
at local level. We see it all the time, or disuse.
It is happening. There is talk and it is happening
of having people's assemblies citizens assemblies. There is talk and
it is happening of an youth assembly, an youth parliament.
(28:17):
We are moving in the directs, the right direction, but
it's going to take an all mighty long time to
get a complete overhaul of the system, and setting up
a new party is very, very difficult, I assure you.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Well, Glenora, it's been a pleasure as the usual speaking
to you and delving into your experience, long and varied
it is as a politician and as a political analyst
and journalist here with us at Planet Online. Well, we
(28:59):
hope you enjoyed that cast, a sort of brief overview
of politicians and politics, not everyone's cup of tea.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
As we know, they're out.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Knocking your doors as we speak in the Commandery all
across Wales. Politicians are vying for your vote. Please do
get in touch with us and give us your views.
We'd love to hear from you at editor at clinellionline
dot news. You've been listening to the Clinette Online podcast
(29:33):
with me, Alan Evans and Greenoro Jones talking about Thanks
for listening now,
Popular Podcasts
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.