August 2, 2022 • 31 mins
Journalist Martin Shipton discusses the state of media in Wales
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Jeffs turned for the last time in the rub the
DV lands.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
That's show so bright there's no.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
More need of the lights as the last.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Piece of coal is cut from the belly of the
black scene hole.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I'm with Martin Shipton, the political editor at large at
Wales Online. Martin, pleasure to.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Have you along, My pleasure, Alan, thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
We're just going to look really a broad brush overview
of the media in Wales. I know you've spoken, you've
given lectures and you've been sort of outspoken on the
state of the media in Wales and it's safe to
say I suppose it's not in a very good place
at the moment. You've raised concerns about the state of
(00:59):
Welsh media. You're partially champion of media and you've been
involved with the media in Wales for many years. Do
you think that communities are now being deprived of the
news they once had from locally based outlets like let's
just take this Lanetley Sta for instance, that that had
a really big sales coverage, a big audience and it
was always you know what Antie Betty was doing down
(01:21):
at the WI.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yeah. I think it's a great shame that the local
papers have been hit so hard. And indeed, there's a
woman I know called Rachel Howells who used to work
in the media herself, and she was actually one of
the founders of this newspaper, this hyper local newspaper and
(01:48):
website called the Portolbert Magnet, which was established in order
to try to counteract the decline that was taking place.
I mean, what has happened is that as a consequence
of structural problems in the newspaper industry and decisions that
were taken years ago now about emphasizing the importance of
(02:14):
online material, they didn't really establish a good business model
for making money out of online journalism. So the trouble
is that because they, as it were, like lemmings, jumped
over the cliff, they sort of assumed that the business
(02:35):
model would follow, so everyone would sign up for the
online version of news, and because the internet was the
thing of the future, then somehow a business model would
emerge that would make it sustainable. The difficulty is that
that hasn't really happened, and it's extremely difficult to make
(02:56):
money out of online journalism. So what has happened. You've
already sent out the signal to people that everything in
the future is going to be online. You've put your
content freely available online, which is what happened in a
lot of cases, and therefore people stopped buying the newspaper
(03:16):
and the revenue which they used to get to fund
the employment of journalists has to a considerable degree disappeared
and that has resulted in this constant hemorrhaging of news
outlets where they have just they've disappeared. And whereas a
few years ago, you know, twenty years ago, local papers
(03:41):
were in a pretty healthy situation and they used to
contribute to the profits the companies. I mean, I know
that from what is now called Media Wales. It was
Western Milan Echo and the Doram advertised a series of
weekly papers, was very well sold, and of course it
meant that on a local level you were able to
(04:02):
stimulate people's interest in local events. So you would have
obviously an interest in the parochial community events, but there
would also be good coverage of what was going on
at the council where very often there would be controversies
that people would have about planning matters or whatever. And
(04:22):
because so many people would read that local paper, the
councilors were very aware that they were being kept on
their toes in terms of making sure that they behaved properly.
They didn't always behave properly, but at least they were
being held to account by the local newspapers. Well, now
in many cases that has disappeared. There's one positive thing
(04:46):
which has happened in the last three or four years
where as a result of the BBC funding a project
called Local Democracy, that has meant that there has been
a return of coverage of local authorities to to a
degree in Wales as well as in England. And that
(05:10):
is to the good. But we're not back at the
situation which we were twenty years ago, where local people
would be buying the newspapers and the local authorities would
be taking great account of what was being you know,
the stories that were appearing there and the criticisms that
they were being subjected to. And therefore you got this
(05:31):
big dislocation really between decisions which are being made by
local authorities which can have really, you know, very substantial
impacts on local communities and the ability of local people
to protest or to engage at least in a debate
about what is happening to them. And you know, because
(05:52):
the role of the local newspaper is no longer as
strong as it used to be. I think that has
undermined out a marker to a very large extent.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
I attended a conference this week on engagement with media,
and one of the things that came out of that
really was that there really hasn't been that much engagement
in recent years, and the new media, if you like,
are looking at ways of doing that. The Irish Times
sort of ask for people's stories and they found that
by asking for people's stories, they found that there were
(06:22):
people all over the world, the Irish expats, who were
sending in pictures of themselves. And then they found that
that most of these were nurses, and therefore they had
this sort of wealth of resources I guess like you
would have had on your patch. You're talking about Rodery
Morgan with gwnoro, you know, source of information, source of stories, facts,
reality and so on. Do you think that, let's just
(06:44):
look at Wales Online for instance, are they engaging enough
with the community on these essential even the little stories,
like you know, what affects them in planning, what affects
them in their town.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I think the problem that the journalists face is partly
that they find it difficult to go out to meet
people because they are tied to their desk to a
large extent. And whereas in the old days, you know,
to use the cliche, people be attending council meetings, they'd
be out and about in the community, they'd be meeting people,
(07:16):
they'd get themselves known, and therefore people would be contacting them.
What happens a lot these days is that the primary
source of news is seen as social media, and in
particular Facebook, So you will have reporters who spend the
time trawling through Facebook trying to find stories that are
then essentially reproduced in the mainstream media. So you know,
(07:41):
you've got this strange situation where it's social media that
is dictating what becomes of news value. And then you've
also got the problem where because of this difficulty in
getting revenue, they are now new spoper companies are now
very much geared into what is called programmatic advertising, where
(08:04):
you get a fraction of a penue for every time
there's a page view or a clique as you know
colloquially describe it on a story, and they know that
the type of stories that are going to get these
clicks are things that are of generic interest because they
will be picked up on the Internet, and you know,
you might have stories about Gregg's pasties or Weatherspoon's latest menu,
(08:28):
something like that, which is going to get far more
clicks than a local planning story in a community, because
inevitably there are going to be more people as a
whole across the range of those who are going to
be accessing the site who will be interested in Greg's
pasties then will be interested in a planning round in Finette,
(08:49):
for example. So therefore that has skewed news values so
that more emphasis is now being placed on these generic
stories that are going to get lots of page views,
non local stories, which are by their very nature going
to have a more limited appeal.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
You took a very traditional path into journalism university degree,
post guarding journalism. Are you worried that that route to
becoming a journalist is diminishing and more so the job
opportunities when that route has been navigated?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Well, I mean I was entering the profession at a
time when there were lots of jobs available, You had
big newsrooms, you had people doing these training courses. There
were relatively few training courses around in those days. The
one that I went to Cardiff University or University College
(09:41):
Cardiff as it was known at the time, was one
of the very few postgraduate courses that were available, and
really you would have to have messed up pretty badly
on the course not to have been able to get
a job afterwards. Now, my concern is that the jobpportunities
that are available are much more limited for people because
(10:04):
there are a lot more courses. You know, obviously there
are a lot of people who would like to have
a career in media, so they go on these courses
with the expectation of getting a job afterwards, and the
jobs just aren't available, certainly in the numbers that were
(10:25):
available you know, thirty years ago for example. So that
is a problem, and I think they're really in an
ideal world, there would be a place for people who
are just good news gatherers. Obviously, there the combination between
being a good news gatherer and being able to write
the story up. So you know, you go on a
course and you learn how to write a story in
(10:45):
an engaging way. You know, that's all very valuable, But
I think the problem at the moment is that you've
got you do have some very enthusiastic people involved who
create their own hyper local sites, which I think is
very commendable, but the trouble that they face is how
to earn a living. It's very difficult to earn a
living if you're running a hyperlocal site. And indeed, Rachel Howells,
(11:09):
who I alluded to earlier, she got to a point
where while she was working very hard and doing the
best she possibly could in order to create this local coverage,
she just wasn't getting the financial rewards that would enable
her to survive, so she had to pack it in
(11:29):
and that is the problem. It's about where the money
is going to come from in order to finance what
is very essential public service, because without information about what
is going on about the decisions that are taken by
powerful organizations like the local council, which are going to
impact on local communities. Without the information, then these organizations
(11:53):
will just get away with things which most people wouldn't
approve of. So it's really a question of finding out
for the future. I think, how are we going to
fund it? And my belief is that the only realistic
way that you're going to get that is as has
happened in other countries like Sweden, for example, is to
have some form of public funding for local news organizations.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Well, looking then if we look at the inverse of that,
where you say, obviously, you know, the on wine Rachel
couldn't make any money there. Newspapers we know are in decline.
The printed paper people aren't really you look around, people
are walking around with newspapers very much these days. Do
you think the newspaper industry could have resisted going online
with free news and that if they hadn't, the traditional
print production and sales wouldn't have suffered so badly.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
I think that they made a very foolish decision to
put the great majority of their content free online. I
mean some of them did that.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yours is nonline?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yours is nice?
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Well, a lot of the stuff that I write doesn't
go online because they don't think it's going to get
enough clicks, because it's you know, I'm writing about Welsh
politics and they you know, they think that it's not
going to get enough clicks. They'd rather put stories about
Greg's pasties up online. But we are. That's another debate
in a way. But yeah, I think the problem is
that had or the point is that if at the outset,
(13:12):
they'd had a sustainable business model, or had actually thought
about how they would have a sustainable business model, they
would have had paywalls from the outset on quality news,
I mean, people are not going to pay, I'm afraid
money to read about Greg's pasties. They're they're not going
to do that. But if you're creating quality news, then
(13:35):
you know there's no reason at all why people shouldn't
be paying for it. I recently exchange with an old
colleague called Gareth Morgan, who was a journalist from West
Wales who has now got a senior position with the
Irish Independent, and he was saying that they have made
the decision that they will have a paywall, and they've
(13:57):
now got a pay wall where you go online you
have to pay to access their quality journalism. And I
think that's quite right.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, journalism is a word you'll be familiar with. In
the practice, I'm sure you don't approve of hyper Locals
have tried to avoid journalism and focused on local news stories,
the small stories unique. Quite often they have not been supporting.
As with mainstream fund it hard to survive. As you've
alluded to, their printed hyper locals went to the wall
very quickly. I think there's not many left now. The
onlines were swiftly imitated by the big players and any
(14:26):
other Tom, Mary or Margaret who fancied themselves as a journalist.
What role, what value and what help should hyper locals
be given, given that they are more akin to the
type of vutefit you were involved with in the early
start of your career on the patch, feet on the ground,
gathering that news.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Well, I think that you've got to have a situation,
as I say, where to make these hyper local sites sustainable.
There is an element of public funding. Of course, then
you get into a debate about how that should happen,
because if you had the same issuing grants to hyper
(15:05):
local sites as the body that they were hoping to
hold to accounts, that creates a bit of a problem.
So you've got to have some sort of arms length arrangement,
and I know, for example that is the papiy Brow
which they have in the Welsh language publications. They get
public they get financed via the Welsh Books Council. I mean,
(15:27):
I think that the way to do it would really
be for the Welsh government to establish some sort of
media organization that was responsible for disbursing such grants and
that they vet the applications made. And they want to
ensure that the people who are going to be providing
(15:47):
the news were properly trained, they knew what they were doing,
and that you know, they would be worthy recipients of
public funding in order to provide the service which is
absolutely essential for everyone.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
You see the conflict of interest though in say local
council or Welsh government funding a new side like that.
I can give you an example where you know, we've
been cautioned by politicians who found themselves being criticized to
remember who but does their bread. You may remember the
allegations that the Commanding Journal would no longer run bad
news stories on Mark Gams, the CEO, for fear of
having the counts of advertising budget stop. There is there
(16:22):
is a very fine line, there isn't.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
There There is? And that's why I think it is
very important to get the structure right and to ensure
that the money is channeled via a body that should
we say, is beyond approach, and where the independence of
that body can be vouched for and easily checked, so
(16:46):
that you know it would be funded by the Welsh
Government and you know who knows, maybe local authorities as well,
predominantly I would think the Welsh government, and that once
the money is paid to the organization, then it's the
organization that makes decisions, and that it would be seen
(17:07):
as wholly unacceptable for politicians to be interfering in where
that money goes and making attempts to influence the organization.
I mean, that should be a complete no no. So
you'd have to have the structure right. But I don't
believe that it's beyond the wit of man and woman
to come up with a process that would that would
(17:28):
be robust and that would make it possible to take
that sort of idea forward.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
We had a number of students come to us for
training and work experience from university on journalism courses and
having spent time here and with us going out on
the job so to speak, and being courched and guided
through interviews, writing techniques, headline formation, you know, all of
(17:54):
that stuff. They fed back to us and said, look,
you know, it was a worthwhile experience. We were inspired,
we were enthused. You know, we learned a lot. Do
you think young journalists are getting that from newspaper offices?
Newspaper organizations today or is that another element that really
(18:15):
it's kind of look, here's a mobile phone, get out there,
grab this, get the clickbait stories and get it on
as quick as you can.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Well I think really that because of this trend towards
getting clicks, towards getting paid views, there isn't so much
time available. There isn't so much attention given to the
longer read if you like, I mean, I know that,
(18:44):
you know it's not it's not gone entirely there. There
is actually some very good material that is produced by
Welles Online. I would say, you know, they do put
together some very very good pieces. I mean, I would
single up Will Hayward for example, who's now was he
the Welsh affairs editor of the Western Mail, Who's done
some exceptionally good writing about the COVID situation, and he's
(19:09):
gone into enormous detail about that. In fact, he had
a book published on the first lockdown about it. So
there is that capacity to do it. But you know,
that is, if you like, an exception, because most of
the reporters are expected to be focused on getting more
(19:29):
and more page views, and inevitably that is going to
mean that these generic kinds of stories are going to
get the lion's share of their attention, which I think
is extremely unfortunate because you know, journalism isn't just a
vehicle for people to make money, is also a social good,
(19:49):
and I think sometimes that is forgotten about. You know
that we in order to have a healthy society, we
need to have people in that society, you know, ordinary
people understanding the issues that are being faced. And one
of the problems, of course these days, is that a
lot of people have turned off from mainstream media for
(20:09):
one reason or another, and they're getting their information, which
is very often misinformation, from social media, where you've got
conspiracy theorists and all manner of nutcases running riot and
spreading misinformation. So we need to return to a situation
(20:31):
where people know that they can go to a particular
site where they can rely on the content of what
is there. But that in turn requires commitment from the
news organization to be providing that kind of material and
not to be totally obsessed with getting programmatic advertising based
(20:52):
on the number of clicks.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Hyper or girls bloggers. They may not be as reliable
news sources, let's just say some of the big outlets,
But we have been fed for many years, and a
lot of people are saying this, even from within the industry.
The news from white, middle class, dedicated men in the
main for the last century, and there's a new way
of journalism that is developing and being refined in many
(21:17):
cases by people living those issues within underrepresented groups and communities.
That there is now an unstoppable growth in the movement,
which has also been regulated in the same way as
traditional news outlets. Are so many of these hyper locals,
many of these community driven you know, sort of East
End of London or Bame communities starting their own little
(21:39):
hyper locals focusing on their own sort of news and
telling it.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
As it is.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Do you see that as something that really is going
to take over and replace if you like, you know
what we're used to this as I say, this sort
of white middle class educated man in telling us the
news as it is.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
I think we obviously have to recognize that there has
been a diversity problem within the mainstream media where we
haven't had enough people from Bame backgrounds, even we haven't
had enough people from working class backgrounds who are working
as journalists, and it's important that they get representation. But
I think beyond everything what's important is that whatever the
(22:25):
backgrounds of these people, is that they should have a
professional approach to what they do, and that they shouldn't
just see journalism as a vehicle to push their own
particular cause they've got to be able to step back
a bit sometimes and see, you know, the value of
(22:49):
adopting a more professional approach, And you can only really
hold public authorities to account if you take that path.
You know, if you are just going to be ranting
and raving, ultimately, I'm afraid no one's going to be
listening to you. You're going to be far more influential
if you adopt a more subtle approach, which can, in
(23:12):
a different way, be just as hard hitting, but where
you are deploying the professional techniques that trained journalists have
in order to tease out information from from these authorities
in order to answer the concerns of the communities that
(23:33):
you identify with. So I think that you nearly need
to have you know, I'm all in favor of these
groups having their own or you know, starting their own
hyper local or you know, hyper interest outlets, but they
need to be adopting the same kind of ethical approach
(23:56):
towards the coverage that they are pursue ing as has
traditionally been the case in mainstream media.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
You have concerns about lack of censor of comments and
all mine articles we've seen in the social media giants
falling foul up in this area too. Here at Wales
News Online, let you know we have more nitor and
if necessary delete comments we deemed to be hateful, racist etc.
Freedom of speech is one thing, but where do you
draw the line.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Well, I mean, you know the law lays down that
you should not incite racial hatred for example, and very
often I'm afraid that you will find stories that appear
on news outlets websites which have a comments section where
(24:46):
you will get some really horrific comments made by people.
It always seems to be these sort of people are
the far right who have got a hatred for black
people or hatred for some kind of minority group, and
they will give vent to that. And one thing I
think is very unfortunate is that a lot of news
(25:08):
websites are using some legal judgment from a number of
years ago which said that news websites cannot be expected
to pre moderate all of the comments which go onto
their websites. And that they have a duty of care.
(25:28):
But that duty of care really only begins after somebody
has already posted this vitriolic stuff and where it is
drawn to their attention to remove it. But of course
the damage by then can already have been done. And
you know, it's all very idealistic to say, yes, we
should have interaction with our readers, etc. But unfortunately, very
(25:55):
often the people who are posting a lot of comments
are people who have particularly obnoxious points of view and
are quite bullying as well towards any disagrees with them,
and that actually actually results in a lessening of the debate,
because a lot of people feel too intimidated to post
comments of their own because they know that they're likely
(26:17):
to get bullied by some of these very unpleasant individuals.
So you know, it's all a bit self defeating, and
you know that news outlets do have a responsibility to
try to pre moderate if they possibly can, and you know,
if they if they can't, then I do question the
validity and the value of having comments open, which just
(26:42):
allows these people to vent to their horrible views.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Final question, then I'm sure you will have a cup
of tea there somewhere, maybe you've got some tea leaves
in that cup swimming around, you can look into and
predict the future for us. Do you ever foresee a
day when there are no printed newspapers left in Wills?
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Well, I mean, people have been predicting the demise of
newspapers for a very long time. But in fact the
strange thing is that, rather oddly, because of the difficulty
of making sufficient money from online journalism, the importance of
revenue from print journalism has increased and has been recognized more.
(27:25):
I mean, if you look at the accounts, for example,
of Reach plc formerly Trinity Mirror, which owns the Western
Mail Echo and North Wales a Daily Post, etc. You'll
see that eighty percent of the revenue continues to come
from print, and that only twenty percent or less than
(27:48):
twenty percent because some of it a small amount comes
from other elements as well, comes from digital revenue. So
print revenue remains very very important, now, you know, you
said that these days sometimes it's difficult to find anyone
who's reading a newspaper, and indeed, of course there has
(28:10):
been huge circulation decline, but nevertheless they get you know,
if you look at Media Wales, I mean they're publishing
the Western Mail six days a week. They've got Welles
and Sunday, they've got the Swansea Evening Post, they've got
the South Wales Echo. These papers are being sold and
(28:32):
they're getting what remained considerable amounts of money which are
being paid to them from you know, just selling the papers,
let alone advertising. And of course the thing is that
newspapers have always relied on two sources of revenue, the
sales of the papers themselves called the cover price sales,
(28:54):
and also advertising. And I think that those people who
thought that you would only be able to you would
only need to rely on one source of revenue advertising,
have been proved to be completely wrong.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
And I would like to see more encouragement given to
people to buy newspapers, and you know, more propaganda if
you like, about the value of actually having a physical
newspaper in your hand where you can turn it over
and not be bombarded by all of these pop ups
and surveys and god knows what you face when you're
(29:30):
going on a news website. It's desperate to make money
from you.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Mar Team ship done. It's been a pleasure speaking to you.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Thank you very much, My pleasure and thank you the
dev lands.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
That so great.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
There's no more need as the last piece of coal
is cut from the belly of the Black Sea holes
to the school of Morning.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
So hmm. Throughout his lifetime he has forty has given
his name. He used the congregations go around the old
man great. It's the rape of the Banka tree. Puts
(30:20):
anything for my greatgrandfather's. The importation save great. So great
is the bankontry, Great is the sa
Jeffs turned for the last time in the rub the
DV lands.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
That's show so bright there's no.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
More need of the lights as the last.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Piece of coal is cut from the belly of the
black scene hole.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
I'm with Martin Shipton, the political editor at large at
Wales Online. Martin, pleasure to.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Have you along, My pleasure, Alan, thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
We're just going to look really a broad brush overview
of the media in Wales. I know you've spoken, you've
given lectures and you've been sort of outspoken on the
state of the media in Wales and it's safe to
say I suppose it's not in a very good place
at the moment. You've raised concerns about the state of
(00:59):
Welsh media. You're partially champion of media and you've been
involved with the media in Wales for many years. Do
you think that communities are now being deprived of the
news they once had from locally based outlets like let's
just take this Lanetley Sta for instance, that that had
a really big sales coverage, a big audience and it
was always you know what Antie Betty was doing down
(01:21):
at the WI.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yeah. I think it's a great shame that the local
papers have been hit so hard. And indeed, there's a
woman I know called Rachel Howells who used to work
in the media herself, and she was actually one of
the founders of this newspaper, this hyper local newspaper and
(01:48):
website called the Portolbert Magnet, which was established in order
to try to counteract the decline that was taking place.
I mean, what has happened is that as a consequence
of structural problems in the newspaper industry and decisions that
were taken years ago now about emphasizing the importance of
(02:14):
online material, they didn't really establish a good business model
for making money out of online journalism. So the trouble
is that because they, as it were, like lemmings, jumped
over the cliff, they sort of assumed that the business
(02:35):
model would follow, so everyone would sign up for the
online version of news, and because the internet was the
thing of the future, then somehow a business model would
emerge that would make it sustainable. The difficulty is that
that hasn't really happened, and it's extremely difficult to make
(02:56):
money out of online journalism. So what has happened. You've
already sent out the signal to people that everything in
the future is going to be online. You've put your
content freely available online, which is what happened in a
lot of cases, and therefore people stopped buying the newspaper
(03:16):
and the revenue which they used to get to fund
the employment of journalists has to a considerable degree disappeared
and that has resulted in this constant hemorrhaging of news
outlets where they have just they've disappeared. And whereas a
few years ago, you know, twenty years ago, local papers
(03:41):
were in a pretty healthy situation and they used to
contribute to the profits the companies. I mean, I know
that from what is now called Media Wales. It was
Western Milan Echo and the Doram advertised a series of
weekly papers, was very well sold, and of course it
meant that on a local level you were able to
(04:02):
stimulate people's interest in local events. So you would have
obviously an interest in the parochial community events, but there
would also be good coverage of what was going on
at the council where very often there would be controversies
that people would have about planning matters or whatever. And
(04:22):
because so many people would read that local paper, the
councilors were very aware that they were being kept on
their toes in terms of making sure that they behaved properly.
They didn't always behave properly, but at least they were
being held to account by the local newspapers. Well, now
in many cases that has disappeared. There's one positive thing
(04:46):
which has happened in the last three or four years
where as a result of the BBC funding a project
called Local Democracy, that has meant that there has been
a return of coverage of local authorities to to a
degree in Wales as well as in England. And that
(05:10):
is to the good. But we're not back at the
situation which we were twenty years ago, where local people
would be buying the newspapers and the local authorities would
be taking great account of what was being you know,
the stories that were appearing there and the criticisms that
they were being subjected to. And therefore you got this
(05:31):
big dislocation really between decisions which are being made by
local authorities which can have really, you know, very substantial
impacts on local communities and the ability of local people
to protest or to engage at least in a debate
about what is happening to them. And you know, because
(05:52):
the role of the local newspaper is no longer as
strong as it used to be. I think that has
undermined out a marker to a very large extent.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
I attended a conference this week on engagement with media,
and one of the things that came out of that
really was that there really hasn't been that much engagement
in recent years, and the new media, if you like,
are looking at ways of doing that. The Irish Times
sort of ask for people's stories and they found that
by asking for people's stories, they found that there were
(06:22):
people all over the world, the Irish expats, who were
sending in pictures of themselves. And then they found that
that most of these were nurses, and therefore they had
this sort of wealth of resources I guess like you
would have had on your patch. You're talking about Rodery
Morgan with gwnoro, you know, source of information, source of stories, facts,
reality and so on. Do you think that, let's just
(06:44):
look at Wales Online for instance, are they engaging enough
with the community on these essential even the little stories,
like you know, what affects them in planning, what affects
them in their town.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I think the problem that the journalists face is partly
that they find it difficult to go out to meet
people because they are tied to their desk to a
large extent. And whereas in the old days, you know,
to use the cliche, people be attending council meetings, they'd
be out and about in the community, they'd be meeting people,
(07:16):
they'd get themselves known, and therefore people would be contacting them.
What happens a lot these days is that the primary
source of news is seen as social media, and in
particular Facebook, So you will have reporters who spend the
time trawling through Facebook trying to find stories that are
then essentially reproduced in the mainstream media. So you know,
(07:41):
you've got this strange situation where it's social media that
is dictating what becomes of news value. And then you've
also got the problem where because of this difficulty in
getting revenue, they are now new spoper companies are now
very much geared into what is called programmatic advertising, where
(08:04):
you get a fraction of a penue for every time
there's a page view or a clique as you know
colloquially describe it on a story, and they know that
the type of stories that are going to get these
clicks are things that are of generic interest because they
will be picked up on the Internet, and you know,
you might have stories about Gregg's pasties or Weatherspoon's latest menu,
(08:28):
something like that, which is going to get far more
clicks than a local planning story in a community, because
inevitably there are going to be more people as a
whole across the range of those who are going to
be accessing the site who will be interested in Greg's
pasties then will be interested in a planning round in Finette,
(08:49):
for example. So therefore that has skewed news values so
that more emphasis is now being placed on these generic
stories that are going to get lots of page views,
non local stories, which are by their very nature going
to have a more limited appeal.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
You took a very traditional path into journalism university degree,
post guarding journalism. Are you worried that that route to
becoming a journalist is diminishing and more so the job
opportunities when that route has been navigated?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Well, I mean I was entering the profession at a
time when there were lots of jobs available, You had
big newsrooms, you had people doing these training courses. There
were relatively few training courses around in those days. The
one that I went to Cardiff University or University College
(09:41):
Cardiff as it was known at the time, was one
of the very few postgraduate courses that were available, and
really you would have to have messed up pretty badly
on the course not to have been able to get
a job afterwards. Now, my concern is that the jobpportunities
that are available are much more limited for people because
(10:04):
there are a lot more courses. You know, obviously there
are a lot of people who would like to have
a career in media, so they go on these courses
with the expectation of getting a job afterwards, and the
jobs just aren't available, certainly in the numbers that were
(10:25):
available you know, thirty years ago for example. So that
is a problem, and I think they're really in an
ideal world, there would be a place for people who
are just good news gatherers. Obviously, there the combination between
being a good news gatherer and being able to write
the story up. So you know, you go on a
course and you learn how to write a story in
(10:45):
an engaging way. You know, that's all very valuable, But
I think the problem at the moment is that you've
got you do have some very enthusiastic people involved who
create their own hyper local sites, which I think is
very commendable, but the trouble that they face is how
to earn a living. It's very difficult to earn a
living if you're running a hyperlocal site. And indeed, Rachel Howells,
(11:09):
who I alluded to earlier, she got to a point
where while she was working very hard and doing the
best she possibly could in order to create this local coverage,
she just wasn't getting the financial rewards that would enable
her to survive, so she had to pack it in
(11:29):
and that is the problem. It's about where the money
is going to come from in order to finance what
is very essential public service, because without information about what
is going on about the decisions that are taken by
powerful organizations like the local council, which are going to
impact on local communities. Without the information, then these organizations
(11:53):
will just get away with things which most people wouldn't
approve of. So it's really a question of finding out
for the future. I think, how are we going to
fund it? And my belief is that the only realistic
way that you're going to get that is as has
happened in other countries like Sweden, for example, is to
have some form of public funding for local news organizations.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Well, looking then if we look at the inverse of that,
where you say, obviously, you know, the on wine Rachel
couldn't make any money there. Newspapers we know are in decline.
The printed paper people aren't really you look around, people
are walking around with newspapers very much these days. Do
you think the newspaper industry could have resisted going online
with free news and that if they hadn't, the traditional
print production and sales wouldn't have suffered so badly.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
I think that they made a very foolish decision to
put the great majority of their content free online. I
mean some of them did that.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yours is nonline?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Is it?
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Yours is nice?
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Well, a lot of the stuff that I write doesn't
go online because they don't think it's going to get
enough clicks, because it's you know, I'm writing about Welsh
politics and they you know, they think that it's not
going to get enough clicks. They'd rather put stories about
Greg's pasties up online. But we are. That's another debate
in a way. But yeah, I think the problem is
that had or the point is that if at the outset,
(13:12):
they'd had a sustainable business model, or had actually thought
about how they would have a sustainable business model, they
would have had paywalls from the outset on quality news,
I mean, people are not going to pay, I'm afraid
money to read about Greg's pasties. They're they're not going
to do that. But if you're creating quality news, then
(13:35):
you know there's no reason at all why people shouldn't
be paying for it. I recently exchange with an old
colleague called Gareth Morgan, who was a journalist from West
Wales who has now got a senior position with the
Irish Independent, and he was saying that they have made
the decision that they will have a paywall, and they've
(13:57):
now got a pay wall where you go online you
have to pay to access their quality journalism. And I
think that's quite right.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, journalism is a word you'll be familiar with. In
the practice, I'm sure you don't approve of hyper Locals
have tried to avoid journalism and focused on local news stories,
the small stories unique. Quite often they have not been supporting.
As with mainstream fund it hard to survive. As you've
alluded to, their printed hyper locals went to the wall
very quickly. I think there's not many left now. The
onlines were swiftly imitated by the big players and any
(14:26):
other Tom, Mary or Margaret who fancied themselves as a journalist.
What role, what value and what help should hyper locals
be given, given that they are more akin to the
type of vutefit you were involved with in the early
start of your career on the patch, feet on the ground,
gathering that news.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Well, I think that you've got to have a situation,
as I say, where to make these hyper local sites sustainable.
There is an element of public funding. Of course, then
you get into a debate about how that should happen,
because if you had the same issuing grants to hyper
(15:05):
local sites as the body that they were hoping to
hold to accounts, that creates a bit of a problem.
So you've got to have some sort of arms length arrangement,
and I know, for example that is the papiy Brow
which they have in the Welsh language publications. They get
public they get financed via the Welsh Books Council. I mean,
(15:27):
I think that the way to do it would really
be for the Welsh government to establish some sort of
media organization that was responsible for disbursing such grants and
that they vet the applications made. And they want to
ensure that the people who are going to be providing
(15:47):
the news were properly trained, they knew what they were doing,
and that you know, they would be worthy recipients of
public funding in order to provide the service which is
absolutely essential for everyone.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
You see the conflict of interest though in say local
council or Welsh government funding a new side like that.
I can give you an example where you know, we've
been cautioned by politicians who found themselves being criticized to
remember who but does their bread. You may remember the
allegations that the Commanding Journal would no longer run bad
news stories on Mark Gams, the CEO, for fear of
having the counts of advertising budget stop. There is there
(16:22):
is a very fine line, there isn't.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
There There is? And that's why I think it is
very important to get the structure right and to ensure
that the money is channeled via a body that should
we say, is beyond approach, and where the independence of
that body can be vouched for and easily checked, so
(16:46):
that you know it would be funded by the Welsh
Government and you know who knows, maybe local authorities as well,
predominantly I would think the Welsh government, and that once
the money is paid to the organization, then it's the
organization that makes decisions, and that it would be seen
(17:07):
as wholly unacceptable for politicians to be interfering in where
that money goes and making attempts to influence the organization.
I mean, that should be a complete no no. So
you'd have to have the structure right. But I don't
believe that it's beyond the wit of man and woman
to come up with a process that would that would
(17:28):
be robust and that would make it possible to take
that sort of idea forward.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
We had a number of students come to us for
training and work experience from university on journalism courses and
having spent time here and with us going out on
the job so to speak, and being courched and guided
through interviews, writing techniques, headline formation, you know, all of
(17:54):
that stuff. They fed back to us and said, look,
you know, it was a worthwhile experience. We were inspired,
we were enthused. You know, we learned a lot. Do
you think young journalists are getting that from newspaper offices?
Newspaper organizations today or is that another element that really
(18:15):
it's kind of look, here's a mobile phone, get out there,
grab this, get the clickbait stories and get it on
as quick as you can.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Well I think really that because of this trend towards
getting clicks, towards getting paid views, there isn't so much
time available. There isn't so much attention given to the
longer read if you like, I mean, I know that,
(18:44):
you know it's not it's not gone entirely there. There
is actually some very good material that is produced by
Welles Online. I would say, you know, they do put
together some very very good pieces. I mean, I would
single up Will Hayward for example, who's now was he
the Welsh affairs editor of the Western Mail, Who's done
some exceptionally good writing about the COVID situation, and he's
(19:09):
gone into enormous detail about that. In fact, he had
a book published on the first lockdown about it. So
there is that capacity to do it. But you know,
that is, if you like, an exception, because most of
the reporters are expected to be focused on getting more
(19:29):
and more page views, and inevitably that is going to
mean that these generic kinds of stories are going to
get the lion's share of their attention, which I think
is extremely unfortunate because you know, journalism isn't just a
vehicle for people to make money, is also a social good,
(19:49):
and I think sometimes that is forgotten about. You know
that we in order to have a healthy society, we
need to have people in that society, you know, ordinary
people understanding the issues that are being faced. And one
of the problems, of course these days, is that a
lot of people have turned off from mainstream media for
(20:09):
one reason or another, and they're getting their information, which
is very often misinformation, from social media, where you've got
conspiracy theorists and all manner of nutcases running riot and
spreading misinformation. So we need to return to a situation
(20:31):
where people know that they can go to a particular
site where they can rely on the content of what
is there. But that in turn requires commitment from the
news organization to be providing that kind of material and
not to be totally obsessed with getting programmatic advertising based
(20:52):
on the number of clicks.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Hyper or girls bloggers. They may not be as reliable
news sources, let's just say some of the big outlets,
But we have been fed for many years, and a
lot of people are saying this, even from within the industry.
The news from white, middle class, dedicated men in the
main for the last century, and there's a new way
of journalism that is developing and being refined in many
(21:17):
cases by people living those issues within underrepresented groups and communities.
That there is now an unstoppable growth in the movement,
which has also been regulated in the same way as
traditional news outlets. Are so many of these hyper locals,
many of these community driven you know, sort of East
End of London or Bame communities starting their own little
(21:39):
hyper locals focusing on their own sort of news and
telling it.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
As it is.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Do you see that as something that really is going
to take over and replace if you like, you know
what we're used to this as I say, this sort
of white middle class educated man in telling us the
news as it is.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
I think we obviously have to recognize that there has
been a diversity problem within the mainstream media where we
haven't had enough people from Bame backgrounds, even we haven't
had enough people from working class backgrounds who are working
as journalists, and it's important that they get representation. But
I think beyond everything what's important is that whatever the
(22:25):
backgrounds of these people, is that they should have a
professional approach to what they do, and that they shouldn't
just see journalism as a vehicle to push their own
particular cause they've got to be able to step back
a bit sometimes and see, you know, the value of
(22:49):
adopting a more professional approach, And you can only really
hold public authorities to account if you take that path.
You know, if you are just going to be ranting
and raving, ultimately, I'm afraid no one's going to be
listening to you. You're going to be far more influential
if you adopt a more subtle approach, which can, in
(23:12):
a different way, be just as hard hitting, but where
you are deploying the professional techniques that trained journalists have
in order to tease out information from from these authorities
in order to answer the concerns of the communities that
(23:33):
you identify with. So I think that you nearly need
to have you know, I'm all in favor of these
groups having their own or you know, starting their own
hyper local or you know, hyper interest outlets, but they
need to be adopting the same kind of ethical approach
(23:56):
towards the coverage that they are pursue ing as has
traditionally been the case in mainstream media.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
You have concerns about lack of censor of comments and
all mine articles we've seen in the social media giants
falling foul up in this area too. Here at Wales
News Online, let you know we have more nitor and
if necessary delete comments we deemed to be hateful, racist etc.
Freedom of speech is one thing, but where do you
draw the line.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Well, I mean, you know the law lays down that
you should not incite racial hatred for example, and very
often I'm afraid that you will find stories that appear
on news outlets websites which have a comments section where
(24:46):
you will get some really horrific comments made by people.
It always seems to be these sort of people are
the far right who have got a hatred for black
people or hatred for some kind of minority group, and
they will give vent to that. And one thing I
think is very unfortunate is that a lot of news
(25:08):
websites are using some legal judgment from a number of
years ago which said that news websites cannot be expected
to pre moderate all of the comments which go onto
their websites. And that they have a duty of care.
(25:28):
But that duty of care really only begins after somebody
has already posted this vitriolic stuff and where it is
drawn to their attention to remove it. But of course
the damage by then can already have been done. And
you know, it's all very idealistic to say, yes, we
should have interaction with our readers, etc. But unfortunately, very
(25:55):
often the people who are posting a lot of comments
are people who have particularly obnoxious points of view and
are quite bullying as well towards any disagrees with them,
and that actually actually results in a lessening of the debate,
because a lot of people feel too intimidated to post
comments of their own because they know that they're likely
(26:17):
to get bullied by some of these very unpleasant individuals.
So you know, it's all a bit self defeating, and
you know that news outlets do have a responsibility to
try to pre moderate if they possibly can, and you know,
if they if they can't, then I do question the
validity and the value of having comments open, which just
(26:42):
allows these people to vent to their horrible views.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Final question, then I'm sure you will have a cup
of tea there somewhere, maybe you've got some tea leaves
in that cup swimming around, you can look into and
predict the future for us. Do you ever foresee a
day when there are no printed newspapers left in Wills?
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Well, I mean, people have been predicting the demise of
newspapers for a very long time. But in fact the
strange thing is that, rather oddly, because of the difficulty
of making sufficient money from online journalism, the importance of
revenue from print journalism has increased and has been recognized more.
(27:25):
I mean, if you look at the accounts, for example,
of Reach plc formerly Trinity Mirror, which owns the Western
Mail Echo and North Wales a Daily Post, etc. You'll
see that eighty percent of the revenue continues to come
from print, and that only twenty percent or less than
(27:48):
twenty percent because some of it a small amount comes
from other elements as well, comes from digital revenue. So
print revenue remains very very important, now, you know, you
said that these days sometimes it's difficult to find anyone
who's reading a newspaper, and indeed, of course there has
(28:10):
been huge circulation decline, but nevertheless they get you know,
if you look at Media Wales, I mean they're publishing
the Western Mail six days a week. They've got Welles
and Sunday, they've got the Swansea Evening Post, they've got
the South Wales Echo. These papers are being sold and
(28:32):
they're getting what remained considerable amounts of money which are
being paid to them from you know, just selling the papers,
let alone advertising. And of course the thing is that
newspapers have always relied on two sources of revenue, the
sales of the papers themselves called the cover price sales,
(28:54):
and also advertising. And I think that those people who
thought that you would only be able to you would
only need to rely on one source of revenue advertising,
have been proved to be completely wrong.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
And I would like to see more encouragement given to
people to buy newspapers, and you know, more propaganda if
you like, about the value of actually having a physical
newspaper in your hand where you can turn it over
and not be bombarded by all of these pop ups
and surveys and god knows what you face when you're
(29:30):
going on a news website. It's desperate to make money
from you.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Mar Team ship done. It's been a pleasure speaking to you.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Thank you very much, My pleasure and thank you the
dev lands.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
That so great.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
There's no more need as the last piece of coal
is cut from the belly of the Black Sea holes
to the school of Morning.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
So hmm. Throughout his lifetime he has forty has given
his name. He used the congregations go around the old
man great. It's the rape of the Banka tree. Puts
(30:20):
anything for my greatgrandfather's. The importation save great. So great
is the bankontry, Great is the sa
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