Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Cases of the FBI podcast, retired agents share
some of their most incredible cases.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Let's be ye.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Welcome back everyone, Welcome back, James, Welcome Colas.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
How you doing great?
Speaker 3 (00:17):
How are you doing friend, I'm doing good.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm doing good.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
You know.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
This is one of my favorite guests. I've had him
before in other shows. It's always an amazing story. His
name is Bob Hamer from He wrote a great book.
He's part of the FBI. He was with the FBAFT
for twenty seven years. His book is called The Last Undercover,
The True Story of an FBI Agent's dangerous Dance with Evil,
the Evil Devil.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
What I do here?
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Evil angels, dance with evil.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
He He's a twenty six year veteran of the FBI
and undercover operations. Bob poses everything from a drug dealer
to an aging pedophile. His last undercover assignment and his hardest,
was infiltrating Namble, which we'll be talking about today. Now,
looking back on a career rich in the kind of
action that makes for great cinema, I'm telling you really is.
When you hear it, you think it's he just made
it up. Bob tells us the challenges he endured and
(01:02):
overcame as he stirred down the dark side of humanity
in the face and never blinked. And this is one
of those things, James, that we talked about before. The
police work as well. People don't hear these stories. They
don't understand what you guys see day in and day out,
whether you're you're a federal.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Agent like Bob or yourself, it's really amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I agree. And for those who don't know, NAMBLA's North
American Man Boy Lover Association. So it's a you know,
it's a pedophile type group or is a pedophile group.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Yeah, we're gonna learn a little bit about that and
we'll see what Bob's experience. Let's get not ways hope.
Before we get started, we want to support our show.
Make sure to share and subscribe. Check out Trooper Casey's
playlist as well. You see all the other past episodes.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
And let's get started.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Welcome Bob, Hey, Carlos, it's good to be with you again.
Maybe one of these days we'll get to do it
in person. The last couple of times we've talked, it's
all been zoom. We keep doing it, We keep doing it.
Over these computers. But thank goodness for computers.
Speaker 5 (01:57):
Huh.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Oh my gosh, imagine that doing an interview versus what
is the correspondence courses? Said Bob, A question every week. So, Bob,
let's start off with some of your cases. Well, guess
we'll go straight into Nambler. Tell us a little bit
about Namblo. What happened there with your experience?
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah, Namble was, as you mentioned, I mean, it was
my most difficult case. I mean, James, you've been through
it sounds like more than I have, But I mean
I've been shot in, I've shot people, I've had a
gun put to my head threaten to blow my brains out.
But Namble was was the most difficult case because I
(02:37):
posed as the contract killer. Well, if people want to
hire me to be a contract killer, they really don't
care whether I'm a Republican or a Democrat, whether I
like the ballet or football. They want to know if
I'm capable of killing the person they're hiring me to kill,
so they don't get into that. But for Namble, for
me to pose as a member of this organization, I
(02:59):
had to think like them and be like them. It
was a twenty four to seven sort of thought process
that in order for me to be one of them
without becoming one of them, And I think that's what
made this a little more difficult for me. You know,
it sounds pretty simplistic, but we were in a meeting
in Cocoa Beach, Florida, and it was the weather was outstanding,
(03:21):
it was beautiful, and there are these beautiful women that
were walking up and down in beach volleyball attire and
I couldn't look at them because I wasn't attracted to women.
I was supposed to be attracted to pre pubescent boys.
And I was sitting there with a couple of namble
guys and they weren't looking at the women.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
It was, oh my gosh. You know, Carlos, look at
that kid in the red T shirt. Let's play the
dating game and James, you can have the blue T shirt.
Bob you get number thirty two, and Carlos you get
the red T shirt.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
So it was being with them, I kind of had
to think like them, and I I joke about it.
The membership was trying to debate where to go to
eat that night, and I literally said, hey, let's go
to Hooters. You know, nobody's going to suspect a bunch
of boy lovers going into.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
Hooters, and that got voted down pretty quickly.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Well, you actually actually told them that.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Bob's fund of funny likes to had fun his undercover
up persons.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
So tell me this. What are some of the things.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
I know, we've talked about this before and we realized
that it's non discriminatory. There were all types of individuals
in this group.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
Isn't that true?
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, you know, that's that's what's interesting. Uh, First of all,
it wasn't necessarily a gay group. It was men that
were attracted to boys, and some of these men like
adult women and little boys. Some of them considered themselves.
Speaker 5 (04:49):
Gay who were attracted to boys.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Some of them considered themselves they were neither gay or
neither homosexual nor heterosexual.
Speaker 5 (04:58):
They were pedophile.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
They loved boys and didn't consider that to be any
other type of lifestyle.
Speaker 5 (05:06):
They viewed this as a.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Sexual orientation and didn't really discriminate. I dealt with members
that were literally MENSA members and those that were illiterate.
Speaker 5 (05:18):
I dealt with guys.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
One guy was a dentist that flew to the conferences
in his own airplane and had a boat, was very
successful financially. I dealt with guys who were on welfare,
so it ran the gamut, and I'm often.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
Asked, well, you know, what can we look for?
Speaker 1 (05:35):
What are the boxes that we need to check off
that we can determine? Hey, yeah, I'm sure we all
the boy scout leader who still lives with his mother
and it turns out that emolested the child, and everybody goes, well,
that doesn't surprise me. Well, I was dealing with guys
that had three or four kids and were married, and
(05:55):
even if they had boys in the family, were attracted
to boys outside the family, and that's that's where.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
They were seeking their sexual satisfaction. So there wasn't a checklist, Bob,
I have a question for that.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Also nowadays, I get you know most of it, get
all that, get all that kind of information on for
computer pre computers, How would you guys find that out?
Would that kind of be underground type stuff? Or I mean,
I get I understand your DEPI but like for someone
who doesn't know, how would you even how would you
guys even know about.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
That, know about the organization?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah? Yeah, pre computers?
Speaker 5 (06:29):
Yeah, you know, well, I think that's a good point.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
And I think that was the purpose of Nambler when
it first started. Was it started in seventy eight, It
started before the computer, and it was just this opportunity
for like minded men to get together. They had and
this was the sort of it. When you think about
seventy eight, you start you think of the sexual revolution,
(06:53):
and this is when people were exploring different sexual orientations
and trying to normalize them. So nambla. I mean, they marched,
they were in the gay pride parades, they were welcome
within the gay community. They had since been kicked out
of the gay community, but they had open memberships, uh
(07:15):
and and open meetings at libraries, public, public.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
Meeting places where these.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Like minded men got together, and soon it spread. I mean,
I guess James, it's it's somewhat like pornography in that,
you know, pre computers, you had to find somebody that
had the magazines, and and once you found that person,
he put you onto someone else, and you were telling
your friends to go to this guy to get the
(07:41):
to get the pornography because it wasn't available online as
it is now.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
That's a good question, that's good, it's a good point.
It's complicated. So a nambla.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
You talked about that time at at the beach, but
I think you also mentioned another time when you went
to oh what kinness was New York or.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Where you were you read some kind of fair.
Speaker 5 (08:01):
Or outside talking about the toys r US.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Toys r US. Yeah, this is important, even though it's ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
But when I was studying these guys before, people think,
you know, oh my god, is that tours US.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
They target these areas.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
They're not going to a nursing home to look for
the people for them where they hang out.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Go ahead, well, and I think that's important, Carlos that
you bring this up because the first meeting I had
once I joined the organization, I was trying to get
closer to the membership and they'd had a meeting in
San Francisco. When I tried to get invited to that meeting,
they said, no, you haven't been a member long enough.
(08:43):
You have to be a member for three years and
sponsored by another member before Boo will invite you. And
quite frankly, I was working on the Joint Terrorism pass
Force at the time that this investigation came up. I
won't go into all the details, but essentially I was
targeting as an undercover agent. I was targeting a travel agent,
(09:06):
was putting together sex tours for boy lovers overseas, and
as part of my background, I joined NAMBLA just because
I figured everyone going on these strips would be card
carrying members.
Speaker 5 (09:17):
Of this organization.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Well, then when that case fell through, NAMBLA starts contacting
me about sending Christmas cards and corresponding with the NAMBLO members,
which I did almost as a joke. I mean, like
I said, I was on the joint cares of passports.
We were busy running and gunning twenty four to seven,
but in the downtime I was sending Christmas cards to
(09:41):
NAMBLO members and writing letters and wrote a couple of
articles for their magazine. And within eighteen months I got
invited to this meeting back in New York, and it
was sort of a top secret meeting. James, You've been
in these type of situations where this was the most.
Speaker 5 (09:59):
Paranoid group I had infiltrated.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
I mean I'd been I'd worked gangs in south central
Los Angeles. I'm a white guy buying drugs from from
CRYPT members. I'd worked the Litla cosa Nostra, the Russian mafia,
Asian organized crime groups in an undercover capacity. But they
this group was paranoid because they were so fearful of
(10:21):
being outed. I mean, let's face it, the mob guys,
you know, Tony Soprano brags about being a mob guy.
But NAMBLO members don't go around bragging that they're Nambler
members because even with within even within the gay community,
it's looked down upon. So even within the heterosexual community,
(10:42):
it's looked down upon. So they just didn't come out
and admit they were Nambler members. So now I go
back to New York. We meet at Grand Central Station
in the dining concourse and Peter Herman, Peter Melzer, who's
somewhat the the head of the group, says we're going
to take a tour of Times Square. And there were
(11:03):
about twenty five, maybe thirty members of us that are
walking to Times Square. And as we're getting you can
sense the excitement. I told Carlos in the pass it
was like, you know, going to the se football game
and you're at the coliseum and as you start to
walk up to put your ticket, give your ticket to
the ticket counter and go through the Turnstiles. You know,
(11:26):
you get all excited because football is about to start.
We go into Toys r Us and these guys literally
run to the railing of this indoor sixty foot ferris
wheel and they're standing there at the railing pointing to
these different boys that are going around on the ferris
wheel and saying, Okay, here's.
Speaker 5 (11:46):
What I want to do to that one. Well, this
is what I want to do to that one.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
And it was one of those things where as a parent,
it's Friday night, you.
Speaker 5 (11:55):
Know, you're in New York, you go downtown, you.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Go to the Toys Arrest, you pick out a gift
for your kid or something, you let them ride around
on the ferris wheel. They are just having a great
family time, and in essence, they are providing eye candy
for these pedophiles. And had I not been undercover, and James,
I'm sure had you been with me and we had
(12:18):
walked past this railing hearing these guys talk.
Speaker 5 (12:21):
We would have thrown them off the railing.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
I mean, it was just it was just so it
was so vile of the things they were saying, are
they cautious?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Are the cautious? When they're talking of people walking by.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
It, and in that case they were I mean, and
I was close enough because I was one of them, sure.
Speaker 5 (12:42):
That I could I could hear what they were saying.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
You know, I've been to that toys rs. My oldest son,
I put him on that Ferris wheel.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Yeah, there's a whole different perspective of it now, it does.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
And I think that was one thing that kind of
opened my eyes.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I mean, I love baseball, and our son was a
great high school you know, a kid in youth league.
He was great in high school. He signed a pro
contract out of high school. He played professional baseball for
a while. And I would stop and watch kids play
at the park, you know, in between leads as an
FBI agent, if I were from one interview to the next,
(13:20):
if I had a couple of minutes and there was
a ball game going on, I'd stop and watch baseball,
not thinking that there were probably pedophiles that stopped and
were watching the same thing because they just they were
in love with little boys. Carlos, I mentioned this to
you in the past when you get to be thinking
(13:42):
about this. Twenty four to seven, one of the guys
we convicted had literally videotaped a silver and learning commercial,
and you and I would watch this and thinking, Oh,
my son or my daughter needs help with their tutoring,
my grandchildren need help.
Speaker 5 (13:58):
No, this guy was in love with.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
The the boy on that commercial and kept playing it
over and over again.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
And that's what the important thing for people to understand.
That's why I like that story about Toys r US
because it really shows what's going on out there and
for parents to be careful because we never know. One
of those people in that group could be really out
there in the sense of he just wants it right now.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
He might try to look for a child to kidnap.
Speaker 4 (14:29):
We never know because not all the members are going
to be vetted completely, so could be a little bit
off the rocker, completely off the rocker and try to
kidnap one of those children.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
But especially at the parks.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
I don't know if you guys ever went to the parks,
because that's another place where they tend to hang out
a lot.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
I think what was a little different from NAMBLA.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
And I'm not here certainly to be an apologist for
the organization, but for the most part, they viewed themselves
as boy lovers, not as they as concerned with the
grooming process.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
As they were.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
This wasn't a snatch and grab type organization. Now there
were some of those members in the group. But the
bigger danger I see for as parents and grandparents, we're
not It's not so much the people that break into
the bedroom window at night and snatch the child out
(15:29):
of the bed. It's these persuasion predators, the ones that
the coaches, the teachers, the neighbors, the relatives that are there.
And for the NAMBLA, they were grooming the parents, typically
the single mom, as much as they were grooming the child.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
And also a step further with that too, is nowadays
you have those video games where they have chats. You know,
I've heard of you know, predators trying to find kids.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
On those Oh sure, yeah, because you don't know how old.
You know, I may log in as Bobby thirteen, Yeah,
in one of those games, and unless we're in a
video chat, you don't know how old I am.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
I mean, what did the comedian Dennis Miller say, you
think you're talking to some you know whatever, and he
goes as some fifty year old native trucker named Skeeter
driving cross country.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
You don't know, No, you're absolutely right. And that's another
good point, Bob. There are differences because I know the
pedophiles and Chad Maliss just somewhat distinguish them because jam
mollissers would be the ones that really don't care about
the boy. They will be an opportunist to just take
advantage of it. Well, the pedophile will tend to groom
and supposedly have feelings for them. They don't want them
(16:53):
to get hurt. They actually think it'll benefit them. And
that's something have you noticed that too.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
In the trade?
Speaker 5 (16:58):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (16:59):
That for many of the ones that I dealt with,
that was this was we are developing a loving relationship
and it doesn't necessarily mean it ends in sex, but
it probably will. So this wasn't I really wasn't dealing
(17:20):
that much with the slam band thank you Man type
of sexual predator. I was dealing with the person that
I wanted the grooming.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
I wanted to.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Develop the relationship and I hope that it will eventually
lead to a sexual relationship. But even if it doesn't,
the grooming process is just so special.
Speaker 5 (17:41):
I mean I listened to to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
One of the guys that we convicted ended up getting
thirty years and he was a former special ed teacher
that admitted to grooming about two hundred boys and actually
molesting between sixty and seventy. The grooming process was as
exciting for him as the sexual encounter.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Hey, Bob, I have one question for you. When you're
at those meetings, when you're talking about do they ever
start and how do you how do you do they
start passing like child porn around, you know, and you
have to view that, and I mean that must actually
turn your stomach.
Speaker 5 (18:23):
You know. It was interesting.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
And again I'm not an Enablo apologist, but the first
meeting I went to, they started with the safety lecture
and they called it that, and I honestly believe that
they meant you know, how to have sake set, use
a condom, that type of thing. No, they they talked
(18:45):
about the fact that we are here as a movement.
This is not to learn how to where to go
to find little boys, where to go to find phornography.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
This is here to discuss our movement.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
We don't know who's at this meeting today that maybe
his is working for an outside agency. And James, you
wouldn't believe this if you saw the movie, but they
literally were talking and the guy given the safety lectures said,
(19:20):
we've been infiltrated. And he sat right there and he
pointed to the seat where I was sitting, and he said,
we had a journalist that was sitting right there.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
And had.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Something.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
You wouldn't believe this. No, he actually was waiting to
me in my.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Seat and I'm the FBI agent who had infiltrated.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
You kept her cool.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
You kept her cool. So it almost that safety is
almost like that's their way of prepping them on how
to be safe from law enforcement. It seems.
Speaker 5 (19:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yeah, the organization it says that it's there to abolish
age of consent laws, and again just for the purposes
of the viewers, all states, I think probably all countries,
or most countries, at least most Western countries have an
(20:20):
age of consent so that a person above that age
can consent to having sex a person below that age.
If you have sex with someone below that age, it's
automatically statutory rape. So that society has deemed for most
states in the United States it's eighteen or sixteen. Society
(20:42):
is deemed that we need to protect fifteen and sixteen
year olds from sexual predators. So therefore even if the
fifteen year old agrees to sex and the perpetrator is
older than that, the perpetrator has committed statutory rape. So
(21:02):
Namble is trying to say, no, we want to.
Speaker 5 (21:04):
Do away with all.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Consent laws and it should just be if two people
are consenting, regardless of the age, then it is it's okay.
Speaker 5 (21:18):
And I don't know, Carlos.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
I mean, I've told the story before, and if you
want to cut me off, you can. But I literally
sat through a lecture at one of the meetings where
they were justifying oral sex on eighteen month old little boys,
and the reason was that boys like to touch themselves
and it brings them pleasure. So for us to do
(21:43):
that to a little boy with our mouth, we're actually
bringing him pleasure, and therefore he's consenting because he's not objecting,
and so that was deemed consensual sex. So that's the
mindset that you're dealing with here when you're talking to them,
and Carlos, you're the professional, I mean you have to.
(22:06):
When they have that type of thinking, it's hard to
turn that around and explain to them that that's wrong.
And as we talked before we began the show, there
is this normalization movement out there that seeks to normalize
pedophilia as a sexual orientation and therefore should be accepted.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
And not punished.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
It's not a mental disorder, it's the way you're oriented.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
And that's what makes it complicated, is a lot of them.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
It goes along with it like this, what they say,
A lot of times people who are pedophiles have been
sexually abused, and so everybody who's been sexually abused has
not become a pedophile. But every pedophile typically has been
sexually abused, not everybody, I don't know. You can't verify
every single one of them. Everybody I've ever talked to
in the correctional system, police officers, psychologists, psychiatrists, overwhelming majority have.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Been so a lot of times this trauma. It really
depends on them. It depends on how.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
Much they're trying to protect their inner world because they've
been traumatized, so they try to make it acceptable, to
be able to allow it to be done to other
children and whatnot. So that's one of the things we
do find out.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Well, I do think one of the problems that we have,
and this is what Nambler brought this up numerous times.
Speaker 5 (23:28):
I should say.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
NAMBLO members brought this up at taking conferences that they
view are our bias culture has causing these problems where
there have been societies in the past, there are societies.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
Currently in the world that accept boy love.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
And because we've traumatized the youth by saying this is trauma,
you've been traumatized, so then they accept it as that.
But certainly in Afghanistan, they they have their sort of
boys that they fulfill the sexual needs of the men,
(24:11):
and I guess you could say those boys grow.
Speaker 5 (24:14):
Up to be functioning adults.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
I'm not sure, but it's not looked down upon as
it is in our country, so they kind of they
they kind of view our culture is bringing on a
lot of this trauma.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Yeah, and every study that I've ever read that any
childhood been sexually abused, you can see a lot of
things start happening. Well, a lot of the front part
of our brain gets developed in early years of life,
and whether there's physical, psychological, or sexual trauma or abuse,
it starts interfering with that development in that front part
of the brain.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
So what happens is your.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
Ability to inhibit certain behaviors becomes compromised. Your impulsivity goes up,
aggression can go up. There's no criminal gene, but there
are criminals traits that are associated, and a lot of
these get at, get exacerbated when somebody feels that abuse,
and of course there's depression and PTSD depending on the severity,
and everything depends on the duration the severity of the abuse.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Who's doing the abuse.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Because if it's actually your parents, those are the ones
that are supposed to protect you. And if they're doing
the abuse, now your world's completely upside down, because where
are you going to go from there? When it's a stranger,
it's a little bit how would you say, they can
understand it better. They know there are bad people out
there and mom and dad are still there to protect them.
(25:35):
But when it actually happens with your parents, and it
becomes really problematic for those individuals, right, Sexual abuse and
things of that.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Nature, Well, again tell you that just maybe one step farther,
maybe a couple steps backward. In the Namble discussions, they
thought it was wrong to have sex with little girls,
but it was okay with little boys because by nature,
boys are hunters and gatherers and girls or nesters, and therefore,
(26:04):
what we're really doing is helping these boys to explore,
to explore their sexuality. So it was okay to do
this the little boys, but not the little girls.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Bob, I have a question for you with the members
with their own kids, their own boys, I'd say, were
their own kids off limits or would they allow another
member to groom them? I mean? Or was that just
you didn't message?
Speaker 5 (26:29):
I never saw that.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
And like I said, even the dentist who had two
kids said that he had never molested his own his
own children.
Speaker 5 (26:40):
Now, the.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Special ed teacher that got thirty years admitted that his
wife caught him molesting their little boy, but he promised
not to do it again, and so nothing was done
to him at that time.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
Her she didn't call the authorities.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
That's a good question, James, because I so far. I
researched my own personal research. I found there was about
ten different types of criminals and they all have different mos.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
The ones who physically remember. We did that story a
couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 4 (27:17):
I think on the podcast about the parents that tied
up their child, put him in the put them in
the cage, dog cage for ten fifteen hours a day,
didn't feed them. That's a different criminal mentality compared to
somebody who there was a serial killer I talked about
a few months ago whose daughters found out about him
when they were like twenty years old, and the reason
(27:37):
they found out was because he came home.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
With the truck and it still had blood. He wasn't
able to get rid of the blood.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
And somehow they forgot something in the back of his
truck and they thought for his van, Oh, I'm just
going to go quickly and go get it, and he
wasn't around to tell him no, and they went to
the back of the van and that's all the blood was.
But they had no clue. And he wouldn't touch his kids.
He said he would never touch and hurt his kids.
So he got this kind of of a weird again,
different types of criminal minds that have this dichotomy where
(28:04):
my family's off limits, but
Welcome to Cases of the FBI podcast, retired agents share
some of their most incredible cases.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Let's be ye.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Welcome back everyone, Welcome back, James, Welcome Colas.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
How you doing great?
Speaker 3 (00:17):
How are you doing friend, I'm doing good.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm doing good.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
You know.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
This is one of my favorite guests. I've had him
before in other shows. It's always an amazing story. His
name is Bob Hamer from He wrote a great book.
He's part of the FBI. He was with the FBAFT
for twenty seven years. His book is called The Last Undercover,
The True Story of an FBI Agent's dangerous Dance with Evil,
the Evil Devil.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
What I do here?
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Evil angels, dance with evil.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
He He's a twenty six year veteran of the FBI
and undercover operations. Bob poses everything from a drug dealer
to an aging pedophile. His last undercover assignment and his hardest,
was infiltrating Namble, which we'll be talking about today. Now,
looking back on a career rich in the kind of
action that makes for great cinema, I'm telling you really is.
When you hear it, you think it's he just made
it up. Bob tells us the challenges he endured and
(01:02):
overcame as he stirred down the dark side of humanity
in the face and never blinked. And this is one
of those things, James, that we talked about before. The
police work as well. People don't hear these stories. They
don't understand what you guys see day in and day out,
whether you're you're a federal.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Agent like Bob or yourself, it's really amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I agree. And for those who don't know, NAMBLA's North
American Man Boy Lover Association. So it's a you know,
it's a pedophile type group or is a pedophile group.
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Yeah, we're gonna learn a little bit about that and
we'll see what Bob's experience. Let's get not ways hope.
Before we get started, we want to support our show.
Make sure to share and subscribe. Check out Trooper Casey's
playlist as well. You see all the other past episodes.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
And let's get started.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Welcome Bob, Hey, Carlos, it's good to be with you again.
Maybe one of these days we'll get to do it
in person. The last couple of times we've talked, it's
all been zoom. We keep doing it, We keep doing it.
Over these computers. But thank goodness for computers.
Speaker 5 (01:57):
Huh.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Oh my gosh, imagine that doing an interview versus what
is the correspondence courses? Said Bob, A question every week. So, Bob,
let's start off with some of your cases. Well, guess
we'll go straight into Nambler. Tell us a little bit
about Namblo. What happened there with your experience?
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah, Namble was, as you mentioned, I mean, it was
my most difficult case. I mean, James, you've been through
it sounds like more than I have, But I mean
I've been shot in, I've shot people, I've had a
gun put to my head threaten to blow my brains out.
But Namble was was the most difficult case because I
(02:37):
posed as the contract killer. Well, if people want to
hire me to be a contract killer, they really don't
care whether I'm a Republican or a Democrat, whether I
like the ballet or football. They want to know if
I'm capable of killing the person they're hiring me to kill,
so they don't get into that. But for Namble, for
me to pose as a member of this organization, I
(02:59):
had to think like them and be like them. It
was a twenty four to seven sort of thought process
that in order for me to be one of them
without becoming one of them, And I think that's what
made this a little more difficult for me. You know,
it sounds pretty simplistic, but we were in a meeting
in Cocoa Beach, Florida, and it was the weather was outstanding,
(03:21):
it was beautiful, and there are these beautiful women that
were walking up and down in beach volleyball attire and
I couldn't look at them because I wasn't attracted to women.
I was supposed to be attracted to pre pubescent boys.
And I was sitting there with a couple of namble
guys and they weren't looking at the women.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
It was, oh my gosh. You know, Carlos, look at
that kid in the red T shirt. Let's play the
dating game and James, you can have the blue T shirt.
Bob you get number thirty two, and Carlos you get
the red T shirt.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
So it was being with them, I kind of had
to think like them, and I I joke about it.
The membership was trying to debate where to go to
eat that night, and I literally said, hey, let's go
to Hooters. You know, nobody's going to suspect a bunch
of boy lovers going into.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
Hooters, and that got voted down pretty quickly.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Well, you actually actually told them that.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
Bob's fund of funny likes to had fun his undercover
up persons.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
So tell me this. What are some of the things.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
I know, we've talked about this before and we realized
that it's non discriminatory. There were all types of individuals
in this group.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
Isn't that true?
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Yeah, you know, that's that's what's interesting. Uh, First of all,
it wasn't necessarily a gay group. It was men that
were attracted to boys, and some of these men like
adult women and little boys. Some of them considered themselves.
Speaker 5 (04:49):
Gay who were attracted to boys.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Some of them considered themselves they were neither gay or
neither homosexual nor heterosexual.
Speaker 5 (04:58):
They were pedophile.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
They loved boys and didn't consider that to be any
other type of lifestyle.
Speaker 5 (05:06):
They viewed this as a.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Sexual orientation and didn't really discriminate. I dealt with members
that were literally MENSA members and those that were illiterate.
Speaker 5 (05:18):
I dealt with guys.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
One guy was a dentist that flew to the conferences
in his own airplane and had a boat, was very
successful financially. I dealt with guys who were on welfare,
so it ran the gamut, and I'm often.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
Asked, well, you know, what can we look for?
Speaker 1 (05:35):
What are the boxes that we need to check off
that we can determine? Hey, yeah, I'm sure we all
the boy scout leader who still lives with his mother
and it turns out that emolested the child, and everybody goes, well,
that doesn't surprise me. Well, I was dealing with guys
that had three or four kids and were married, and
(05:55):
even if they had boys in the family, were attracted
to boys outside the family, and that's that's where.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
They were seeking their sexual satisfaction. So there wasn't a checklist, Bob,
I have a question for that.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Also nowadays, I get you know most of it, get
all that, get all that kind of information on for
computer pre computers, How would you guys find that out?
Would that kind of be underground type stuff? Or I mean,
I get I understand your DEPI but like for someone
who doesn't know, how would you even how would you
guys even know about.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
That, know about the organization?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah? Yeah, pre computers?
Speaker 5 (06:29):
Yeah, you know, well, I think that's a good point.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
And I think that was the purpose of Nambler when
it first started. Was it started in seventy eight, It
started before the computer, and it was just this opportunity
for like minded men to get together. They had and
this was the sort of it. When you think about
seventy eight, you start you think of the sexual revolution,
(06:53):
and this is when people were exploring different sexual orientations
and trying to normalize them. So nambla. I mean, they marched,
they were in the gay pride parades, they were welcome
within the gay community. They had since been kicked out
of the gay community, but they had open memberships, uh
(07:15):
and and open meetings at libraries, public, public.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
Meeting places where these.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Like minded men got together, and soon it spread. I mean,
I guess James, it's it's somewhat like pornography in that,
you know, pre computers, you had to find somebody that
had the magazines, and and once you found that person,
he put you onto someone else, and you were telling
your friends to go to this guy to get the
(07:41):
to get the pornography because it wasn't available online as
it is now.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
That's a good question, that's good, it's a good point.
It's complicated. So a nambla.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
You talked about that time at at the beach, but
I think you also mentioned another time when you went
to oh what kinness was New York or.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Where you were you read some kind of fair.
Speaker 5 (08:01):
Or outside talking about the toys r US.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Toys r US. Yeah, this is important, even though it's ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
But when I was studying these guys before, people think,
you know, oh my god, is that tours US.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
They target these areas.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
They're not going to a nursing home to look for
the people for them where they hang out.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Go ahead, well, and I think that's important, Carlos that
you bring this up because the first meeting I had
once I joined the organization, I was trying to get
closer to the membership and they'd had a meeting in
San Francisco. When I tried to get invited to that meeting,
they said, no, you haven't been a member long enough.
(08:43):
You have to be a member for three years and
sponsored by another member before Boo will invite you. And
quite frankly, I was working on the Joint Terrorism pass
Force at the time that this investigation came up. I
won't go into all the details, but essentially I was
targeting as an undercover agent. I was targeting a travel agent,
(09:06):
was putting together sex tours for boy lovers overseas, and
as part of my background, I joined NAMBLA just because
I figured everyone going on these strips would be card
carrying members.
Speaker 5 (09:17):
Of this organization.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Well, then when that case fell through, NAMBLA starts contacting
me about sending Christmas cards and corresponding with the NAMBLO members,
which I did almost as a joke. I mean, like
I said, I was on the joint cares of passports.
We were busy running and gunning twenty four to seven,
but in the downtime I was sending Christmas cards to
(09:41):
NAMBLO members and writing letters and wrote a couple of
articles for their magazine. And within eighteen months I got
invited to this meeting back in New York, and it
was sort of a top secret meeting. James, You've been
in these type of situations where this was the most.
Speaker 5 (09:59):
Paranoid group I had infiltrated.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
I mean I'd been I'd worked gangs in south central
Los Angeles. I'm a white guy buying drugs from from
CRYPT members. I'd worked the Litla cosa Nostra, the Russian mafia,
Asian organized crime groups in an undercover capacity. But they
this group was paranoid because they were so fearful of
(10:21):
being outed. I mean, let's face it, the mob guys,
you know, Tony Soprano brags about being a mob guy.
But NAMBLO members don't go around bragging that they're Nambler
members because even with within even within the gay community,
it's looked down upon. So even within the heterosexual community,
(10:42):
it's looked down upon. So they just didn't come out
and admit they were Nambler members. So now I go
back to New York. We meet at Grand Central Station
in the dining concourse and Peter Herman, Peter Melzer, who's
somewhat the the head of the group, says we're going
to take a tour of Times Square. And there were
(11:03):
about twenty five, maybe thirty members of us that are
walking to Times Square. And as we're getting you can
sense the excitement. I told Carlos in the pass it
was like, you know, going to the se football game
and you're at the coliseum and as you start to
walk up to put your ticket, give your ticket to
the ticket counter and go through the Turnstiles. You know,
(11:26):
you get all excited because football is about to start.
We go into Toys r Us and these guys literally
run to the railing of this indoor sixty foot ferris
wheel and they're standing there at the railing pointing to
these different boys that are going around on the ferris
wheel and saying, Okay, here's.
Speaker 5 (11:46):
What I want to do to that one. Well, this
is what I want to do to that one.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
And it was one of those things where as a parent,
it's Friday night, you.
Speaker 5 (11:55):
Know, you're in New York, you go downtown, you.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Go to the Toys Arrest, you pick out a gift
for your kid or something, you let them ride around
on the ferris wheel. They are just having a great
family time, and in essence, they are providing eye candy
for these pedophiles. And had I not been undercover, and James,
I'm sure had you been with me and we had
(12:18):
walked past this railing hearing these guys talk.
Speaker 5 (12:21):
We would have thrown them off the railing.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
I mean, it was just it was just so it
was so vile of the things they were saying, are
they cautious?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Are the cautious? When they're talking of people walking by.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
It, and in that case they were I mean, and
I was close enough because I was one of them, sure.
Speaker 5 (12:42):
That I could I could hear what they were saying.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
You know, I've been to that toys rs. My oldest son,
I put him on that Ferris wheel.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Yeah, there's a whole different perspective of it now, it does.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
And I think that was one thing that kind of
opened my eyes.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
I mean, I love baseball, and our son was a
great high school you know, a kid in youth league.
He was great in high school. He signed a pro
contract out of high school. He played professional baseball for
a while. And I would stop and watch kids play
at the park, you know, in between leads as an
FBI agent, if I were from one interview to the next,
(13:20):
if I had a couple of minutes and there was
a ball game going on, I'd stop and watch baseball,
not thinking that there were probably pedophiles that stopped and
were watching the same thing because they just they were
in love with little boys. Carlos, I mentioned this to
you in the past when you get to be thinking
(13:42):
about this. Twenty four to seven, one of the guys
we convicted had literally videotaped a silver and learning commercial,
and you and I would watch this and thinking, Oh,
my son or my daughter needs help with their tutoring,
my grandchildren need help.
Speaker 5 (13:58):
No, this guy was in love with.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
The the boy on that commercial and kept playing it
over and over again.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
And that's what the important thing for people to understand.
That's why I like that story about Toys r US
because it really shows what's going on out there and
for parents to be careful because we never know. One
of those people in that group could be really out
there in the sense of he just wants it right now.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
He might try to look for a child to kidnap.
Speaker 4 (14:29):
We never know because not all the members are going
to be vetted completely, so could be a little bit
off the rocker, completely off the rocker and try to
kidnap one of those children.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
But especially at the parks.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
I don't know if you guys ever went to the parks,
because that's another place where they tend to hang out
a lot.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
I think what was a little different from NAMBLA.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
And I'm not here certainly to be an apologist for
the organization, but for the most part, they viewed themselves
as boy lovers, not as they as concerned with the
grooming process.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
As they were.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
This wasn't a snatch and grab type organization. Now there
were some of those members in the group. But the
bigger danger I see for as parents and grandparents, we're
not It's not so much the people that break into
the bedroom window at night and snatch the child out
(15:29):
of the bed. It's these persuasion predators, the ones that
the coaches, the teachers, the neighbors, the relatives that are there.
And for the NAMBLA, they were grooming the parents, typically
the single mom, as much as they were grooming the child.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
And also a step further with that too, is nowadays
you have those video games where they have chats. You know,
I've heard of you know, predators trying to find kids.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
On those Oh sure, yeah, because you don't know how old.
You know, I may log in as Bobby thirteen, Yeah,
in one of those games, and unless we're in a
video chat, you don't know how old I am.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
I mean, what did the comedian Dennis Miller say, you
think you're talking to some you know whatever, and he
goes as some fifty year old native trucker named Skeeter
driving cross country.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
You don't know, No, you're absolutely right. And that's another
good point, Bob. There are differences because I know the
pedophiles and Chad Maliss just somewhat distinguish them because jam
mollissers would be the ones that really don't care about
the boy. They will be an opportunist to just take
advantage of it. Well, the pedophile will tend to groom
and supposedly have feelings for them. They don't want them
(16:53):
to get hurt. They actually think it'll benefit them. And
that's something have you noticed that too.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
In the trade?
Speaker 5 (16:58):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (16:59):
That for many of the ones that I dealt with,
that was this was we are developing a loving relationship
and it doesn't necessarily mean it ends in sex, but
it probably will. So this wasn't I really wasn't dealing
(17:20):
that much with the slam band thank you Man type
of sexual predator. I was dealing with the person that
I wanted the grooming.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
I wanted to.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Develop the relationship and I hope that it will eventually
lead to a sexual relationship. But even if it doesn't,
the grooming process is just so special.
Speaker 5 (17:41):
I mean I listened to to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
One of the guys that we convicted ended up getting
thirty years and he was a former special ed teacher
that admitted to grooming about two hundred boys and actually
molesting between sixty and seventy. The grooming process was as
exciting for him as the sexual encounter.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Hey, Bob, I have one question for you. When you're
at those meetings, when you're talking about do they ever
start and how do you how do you do they
start passing like child porn around, you know, and you
have to view that, and I mean that must actually
turn your stomach.
Speaker 5 (18:23):
You know. It was interesting.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
And again I'm not an Enablo apologist, but the first
meeting I went to, they started with the safety lecture
and they called it that, and I honestly believe that
they meant you know, how to have sake set, use
a condom, that type of thing. No, they they talked
(18:45):
about the fact that we are here as a movement.
This is not to learn how to where to go
to find little boys, where to go to find phornography.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
This is here to discuss our movement.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
We don't know who's at this meeting today that maybe
his is working for an outside agency. And James, you
wouldn't believe this if you saw the movie, but they
literally were talking and the guy given the safety lectures said,
(19:20):
we've been infiltrated. And he sat right there and he
pointed to the seat where I was sitting, and he said,
we had a journalist that was sitting right there.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
And had.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Something.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
You wouldn't believe this. No, he actually was waiting to
me in my.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Seat and I'm the FBI agent who had infiltrated.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
You kept her cool.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
You kept her cool. So it almost that safety is
almost like that's their way of prepping them on how
to be safe from law enforcement. It seems.
Speaker 5 (19:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yeah, the organization it says that it's there to abolish
age of consent laws, and again just for the purposes
of the viewers, all states, I think probably all countries,
or most countries, at least most Western countries have an
(20:20):
age of consent so that a person above that age
can consent to having sex a person below that age.
If you have sex with someone below that age, it's
automatically statutory rape. So that society has deemed for most
states in the United States it's eighteen or sixteen. Society
(20:42):
is deemed that we need to protect fifteen and sixteen
year olds from sexual predators. So therefore even if the
fifteen year old agrees to sex and the perpetrator is
older than that, the perpetrator has committed statutory rape. So
(21:02):
Namble is trying to say, no, we want to.
Speaker 5 (21:04):
Do away with all.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Consent laws and it should just be if two people
are consenting, regardless of the age, then it is it's okay.
Speaker 5 (21:18):
And I don't know, Carlos.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
I mean, I've told the story before, and if you
want to cut me off, you can. But I literally
sat through a lecture at one of the meetings where
they were justifying oral sex on eighteen month old little boys,
and the reason was that boys like to touch themselves
and it brings them pleasure. So for us to do
(21:43):
that to a little boy with our mouth, we're actually
bringing him pleasure, and therefore he's consenting because he's not objecting,
and so that was deemed consensual sex. So that's the
mindset that you're dealing with here when you're talking to them,
and Carlos, you're the professional, I mean you have to.
(22:06):
When they have that type of thinking, it's hard to
turn that around and explain to them that that's wrong.
And as we talked before we began the show, there
is this normalization movement out there that seeks to normalize
pedophilia as a sexual orientation and therefore should be accepted.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
And not punished.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
It's not a mental disorder, it's the way you're oriented.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
And that's what makes it complicated, is a lot of them.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
It goes along with it like this, what they say,
A lot of times people who are pedophiles have been
sexually abused, and so everybody who's been sexually abused has
not become a pedophile. But every pedophile typically has been
sexually abused, not everybody, I don't know. You can't verify
every single one of them. Everybody I've ever talked to
in the correctional system, police officers, psychologists, psychiatrists, overwhelming majority have.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Been so a lot of times this trauma. It really
depends on them. It depends on how.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
Much they're trying to protect their inner world because they've
been traumatized, so they try to make it acceptable, to
be able to allow it to be done to other
children and whatnot. So that's one of the things we
do find out.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Well, I do think one of the problems that we have,
and this is what Nambler brought this up numerous times.
Speaker 5 (23:28):
I should say.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
NAMBLO members brought this up at taking conferences that they
view are our bias culture has causing these problems where
there have been societies in the past, there are societies.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
Currently in the world that accept boy love.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
And because we've traumatized the youth by saying this is trauma,
you've been traumatized, so then they accept it as that.
But certainly in Afghanistan, they they have their sort of
boys that they fulfill the sexual needs of the men,
(24:11):
and I guess you could say those boys grow.
Speaker 5 (24:14):
Up to be functioning adults.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
I'm not sure, but it's not looked down upon as
it is in our country, so they kind of they
they kind of view our culture is bringing on a
lot of this trauma.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Yeah, and every study that I've ever read that any
childhood been sexually abused, you can see a lot of
things start happening. Well, a lot of the front part
of our brain gets developed in early years of life,
and whether there's physical, psychological, or sexual trauma or abuse,
it starts interfering with that development in that front part
of the brain.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
So what happens is your.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
Ability to inhibit certain behaviors becomes compromised. Your impulsivity goes up,
aggression can go up. There's no criminal gene, but there
are criminals traits that are associated, and a lot of
these get at, get exacerbated when somebody feels that abuse,
and of course there's depression and PTSD depending on the severity,
and everything depends on the duration the severity of the abuse.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Who's doing the abuse.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Because if it's actually your parents, those are the ones
that are supposed to protect you. And if they're doing
the abuse, now your world's completely upside down, because where
are you going to go from there? When it's a stranger,
it's a little bit how would you say, they can
understand it better. They know there are bad people out
there and mom and dad are still there to protect them.
(25:35):
But when it actually happens with your parents, and it
becomes really problematic for those individuals, right, Sexual abuse and
things of that.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Nature, Well, again tell you that just maybe one step farther,
maybe a couple steps backward. In the Namble discussions, they
thought it was wrong to have sex with little girls,
but it was okay with little boys because by nature,
boys are hunters and gatherers and girls or nesters, and therefore,
(26:04):
what we're really doing is helping these boys to explore,
to explore their sexuality. So it was okay to do
this the little boys, but not the little girls.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Bob, I have a question for you with the members
with their own kids, their own boys, I'd say, were
their own kids off limits or would they allow another
member to groom them? I mean? Or was that just
you didn't message?
Speaker 5 (26:29):
I never saw that.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
And like I said, even the dentist who had two
kids said that he had never molested his own his
own children.
Speaker 5 (26:40):
Now, the.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Special ed teacher that got thirty years admitted that his
wife caught him molesting their little boy, but he promised
not to do it again, and so nothing was done
to him at that time.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
Her she didn't call the authorities.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
That's a good question, James, because I so far. I
researched my own personal research. I found there was about
ten different types of criminals and they all have different mos.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
The ones who physically remember. We did that story a
couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 4 (27:17):
I think on the podcast about the parents that tied
up their child, put him in the put them in
the cage, dog cage for ten fifteen hours a day,
didn't feed them. That's a different criminal mentality compared to
somebody who there was a serial killer I talked about
a few months ago whose daughters found out about him
when they were like twenty years old, and the reason
(27:37):
they found out was because he came home.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
With the truck and it still had blood. He wasn't
able to get rid of the blood.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
And somehow they forgot something in the back of his
truck and they thought for his van, Oh, I'm just
going to go quickly and go get it, and he
wasn't around to tell him no, and they went to
the back of the van and that's all the blood was.
But they had no clue. And he wouldn't touch his kids.
He said he would never touch and hurt his kids.
So he got this kind of of a weird again,
different types of criminal minds that have this dichotomy where
(28:04):
my family's off limits, but
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