8 Days of O.J. - "DNA EVIDENCE NO ONE UNDERSTANDS: When Science Met Skepticism and Lost" - Day 5

Reid Carter examines May 1995 - the month that presented astronomical scientific proof of O.J. Simpson's guilt that somehow became meaningless statistics. Barry Scheck's contamination symphony makes jurors distrust DNA evidence showing one-in-170-million odds of innocence. Dr. Robin Cotton can't translate complex science into plain English while the jury's eyes glaze over. The Bronco becomes a mobile crime scene with hair, fibers, and blood everywhere. O.J.'s cellmate claims he dreamed of killing Nicole while his arthritis defense says he was too crippled to commit murder. Thirty-one days proving that being scientifically right doesn't matter if you can't make twelve people understand why you're right.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Caalerogushark Media. This is Reed Carter, Tuesday, September thirtieth, twenty
twenty five, Day five of eight days of OJ. We're examining.
May nineteen ninety five the month science went to war
with skepticism and lost. The month DNA evidence that should

(00:26):
have guaranteed O J. Simpson's conviction became just another reason
to doubt the system. May was the month prosecution presented
their most powerful evidence, genetic proof that OJ Simpson was
at the crime scene, that his blood was mixed with
the victim's blood, that the odds of someone else being
responsible were literally astronomical. One in one hundred seventy million.

(00:48):
Those were the odds that the blood at Bundy Drive
belonged to anyone other than O J. Simpson. One in
one hundred seventy million. You're more likely to be struck
by lightning while winning the lottery than for that blood
to belong to someone else. But Barry Sheck was about
to prove that statistics don't matter if people don't trust
the statisticians, that science doesn't matter if you can convince

(01:11):
a jury that the scientists are incompetent, That being right
doesn't matter if you can't explain why you're right in
terms twelve people can understand. Thirty one days of watching
the most sophisticated forensic evidence in legal history get explained
away by contamination theories and collection complaints. Thirty one days
of watching prosecutors turn certainty into confusion and proof into propaganda.

(01:34):
I'm read Carter, this is day five of eight days
of OJA. Welcome to the month we learned that DNA
doesn't speak for itself. It needs translators, and the defense
had better translators than the prosecution. May nineteen ninety five
thirty one days that should have been the prosecution's victory lap.

(01:56):
Thirty one days of presenting DNA evidence so overwhelming, so
scientifically certain, so mathematically definitive that any reasonable jury should
have convicted OJ Simpson before lunch. Instead, May became the
month we learned that reasonable juries don't exist when the
case is about celebrity and race instead of evidence and truth.

(02:16):
The month began with the prosecution's DNA experts taking the
stand to explain what should have been the simplest concept
in the world. OJ Simpson's blood was at the crime
scene where Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman were murdered
case closed trial over verdict guilty. But nothing in this
case was ever simple because simplicity doesn't generate television ratings

(02:40):
or defense fees or reasonable doubt. When you need unreasonable
acquittals may second doctor Robin Cotton from cell Mark Diagnostics
takes the stand. Cotton is one of the world's leading
DNA experts. She's testified in hundreds of cases. She's helped
pioneer the use of genetic evidence in criminal prosecutions. She

(03:01):
should have been the witness who ended any doubt about
Ojay's guilt. Instead, Cotton turned into a science professor, lecturing
students who didn't want to be in class. Cotton explained
restriction fragment length polymorphism testing. She described polymerase chain reaction amplification.
She walked through statistical probability calculations that proved Ojay's guilt

(03:24):
beyond any mathematical doubt. And I can see exactly what
happened watching this testimony thirty years later. The jury's eyes
glazed over, like they were back in high school chemistry,
wondering when this would be over so they could go
to lunch. The prosecution made their fatal mistake. Again, they
assumed evidence speaks for itself. They assumed that being scientifically

(03:45):
correct was the same as being persuasively convincing. They forgot
that juries are made up of regular people who need
to feel the weight of evidence, not just hear about it.
Cotton testified about the blood found at Bundy Drive, OJ
Simpson's blood, not blood that might be his, Not blood
that was similar to his. OJ Simpson's actual DNA deposited

(04:07):
at the scene where two people were murdered. The statistical
probability that this blood belonged to someone else one in
one hundred seventy million. Cotton explained this number multiple times,
in multiple ways, with multiple charts and graphs. One in
one hundred seventy million. There aren't one hundred seventy million
people in Los Angeles. There aren't one hundred seventy million

(04:30):
people in California. You could test every person in America
and not find another DNA match to the blood at
Bundy Drive. But Barry Sheck was ready with his contamination symphony.
Sheck didn't dispute the DNA results. He couldn't. The science
was too solid, the testing too reliable, the match is
too perfect. Instead, he disputed everything else, how the blood

(04:53):
was collected, how it was stored, how it was transported,
how it was tested. May tenth, Jeck begins his cross
examination of Cotton, and it's a masterpiece of misdirection. Instead
of arguing about what the DNA showed, he argued about
whether the DNA could be trusted. Was the blood properly refrigerated,

(05:14):
where chain of custody protocols followed exactly? Were testing procedures
performed in the correct sequence? Could contamination have occurred at
any point in the process. Each question was designed to
plant doubt about the reliability of results that showed OJ's
guilt with mathematical certainty. Sheck wasn't trying to prove the
DNA testing was wrong. He was trying to prove it

(05:36):
was questionable, and with a jury that had already been
convinced the LAPD couldn't be trusted with evidence collection questionable
was enough for reasonable doubt, but May brought even more
damning evidence from OJ's white Bronco, the vehicle that should
have been his mobile. Confession to double murder. May fifteenth,
the prosecution presents evidence from inside the Bronco, OJ's blood

(06:01):
on the driver's door handle, on the steering wheel on
the center console, Nicole's blood on the carpet, Ron's blood
mixed with Ojays in multiple locations, hair evidence that matched Nicole,
fiber evidence that matched the crime scene, a trail of
physical proof that connected OJ to the murders as clearly
as if he'd left a signed confession. The Bronco wasn't

(06:24):
just OJ's car, it was his mobile crime scene. Every
surface told the story of what happened June twelfth, nineteen
ninety four. Oj drove from the murder scene with the
victim's blood on his hands, in his car, on his clothes.
But the defense had an answer for this too, contamination
cross contamination evidence planting the same conspiracy theories that had

(06:47):
worked for the other evidence would work for the Bronco.
Evidence too. May also brought one of the most bizarre
pieces of testimony in this entire bizarre trial. Jose Camacho,
OJ's former cellmate, claimed Oj had told him about dreaming
of killing Nicole. According to Camacho, OJ described a recurring
dream where he confronted Nicole and got carried away, where

(07:10):
his anger turned to violence, and violence turned to murder,
where his jealousy and control issues finally exploded into deadly rage.
This should have been devastating testimony, the defendant allegedly confessing
to the crime in his sleep, revealing the psychological motivation
behind the murders. But Camacho was a jailhouse informant with
credibility issues. He was facing his own charges and had

(07:34):
reason to lie for leniency. The defense destroyed his testimony
by attacking his character and his motives, and Judge Itto,
who had led in hours of DNA testimony that confused
the jury, ruled that Camacho's testimony was too prejudicial to
be fully heard. The jury got a sanitized version that
didn't include the most damning details. Meanwhile, the defense was

(07:58):
preparing their own see scientific counter narrative. Oj was too injured,
too arthritic, too physically compromised to commit these murders. May twentieth.
The defense presents evidence of Ojay's arthritis and other physical ailments.
He was taking medication for joint pain. He had limited
mobility in his hands. He was too crippled to overpower

(08:21):
too healthy adults and kill them both. This was laughable.
Oj Simpson was playing golf regularly, He was working out,
He was physically active. And obviously capable of violence. But
the defense sold this story with medical records and expert
testimony that made oj seem like a decrepit old man
instead of a former professional athlete. And here's what I

(08:43):
think the prosecution should have done. They should have put
Ojay on a golf course, should have shown video of
him swinging clubs, walking courses, playing eighteen holes. Should have
demonstrated that someone to arthritic to commit murder was somehow
healthy enough for recreational sports. Instead, they let the defense
paint Ojay as a victim of his own physical limitations,

(09:04):
while ignoring evidence that he was perfectly capable of the
violence that killed Nicole and Ron. But May's most important
revelation was what the DNA evidence revealed about the jury itself.
We could see them struggling with the scientific testimony. We
could see their frustration with technical details they didn't understand.
We could see them checking out mentally when experts started

(09:25):
talking about statistical probabilities. The prosecution was presenting graduate level
science to people who needed elementary level explanations. They were
talking about molecular biology to jurors who needed to hear
about blood and murder and guilt. In terms they could
feel as well as understand. By May thirty first, the
prosecution had presented the most scientifically conclusive evidence in legal history,

(09:48):
DNA proof that OJ Simpson was guilty beyond any reasonable doubt,
mathematical certainty that should have guaranteed his conviction. But they'd
also lost the jury completely. They'd confuse them with complexity
when they should have convinced them with clarity. They'd overwhelm
them with data when they should have moved them with truth.
The defense, meanwhile, had successfully planted enough doubt about the

(10:12):
science to make the jury distrust the results. They'd turned
DNA evidence from proof of guilt into proof of conspiracy.
May nineteen ninety five was the month the prosecution proved
OJ Simpson was guilty and proved that proof doesn't matter
if you can't sell it to twelve people who've already
decided they don't trust the system that's trying to prove it.

(10:34):
Thirty one days of watching scientific certainty become reasonable doubt,
thirty one days of watching mathematical proof become statistical confusion,
thirty one days of watching DNA evidence that should have
ended the trial become just another reason to distrust the evidence.
We'll be right back with how May's scientific failure set

(10:54):
the stage for June's catastrophic glove demonstration, The moment Chris
Darden handed o ja A. Simpson his acquittal on live television.
Welcome back to day five of eight Days of OJ.

(11:15):
I'm Red Carter, and we're examining how May nineteen ninety
five turned the most powerful forensic evidence in history into
meaningless statistics. What really happened in May? The prosecution committed
the same mistake they'd been making since January. They assumed
that being right was enough to win. They assumed that
scientific proof would overcome political prejudice. They assumed that DNA

(11:38):
evidence would speak louder than defense theories. They were wrong
about all of it. The jury that heard this DNA
testimony wasn't interested in statistical probabilities. They were interested in
police accountability. They weren't concerned with molecular biology. They were
concerned with whether racist cops could be trusted with any evidence,
scientific or otherwise. And Barry Czech understood this perfectly. He

(12:02):
didn't need to disprove the DNA results. He only needed
to make the jury distrust them. He didn't need to
show the science was wrong. He only needed to show
the scientists were fallible. May also revealed the prosecution's fundamental
misunderstanding of their audience. They were presenting evidence to jurors
who'd been selected by the defense specifically because they distrusted

(12:24):
the LAPD. They were trying to convince people who'd already
decided that police evidence couldn't be believed. Doctor Robin Cotton
could explain restriction fragment length polymorphism analysis all day long.
She could calculate statistical probabilities until the numbers filled the courtroom,
but none of that mattered to jurors who'd been convinced

(12:45):
that contaminated evidence produced contaminated results. And here's what frustrates
me most about May nineteen ninety five. The prosecution had
the smoking gun and decided to explain how gunpowder works
instead of just showing the jury the bullet holes. They
had OJ's blood at the crime scene. They had the
victim's blood in his car. They had hair and fiber

(13:06):
evidence connecting him to the murders. They had a timeline
that put him at the scene. They had motive and
opportunity and consciousness of guilt. They could have told a
simple story. OJ. Simpson killed Nicole and Ron, left his
blood at the scene, drove home with their blood in
his car, and tried to cover up his crimes. The

(13:26):
DNA proves this beyond any doubt. Instead, they told a
complex story about allelk ladders and molecular weight determinations and
population frequency databases. They turned a murder case into a
science lecture and wondered why the jury stopped listening, But
may also showed us something else. How the defense strategy
had completely succeeded in transforming this case from murder trial

(13:49):
to police misconduct hearing. Every piece of evidence became an
opportunity to attack LAPD procedures. Every scientific result became a
chance to question laboratory protocols. Every proof of guilt became
a reason to doubt the people presenting the proof. The
jury wasn't asking whether O. J. Simpson killed Nicole and

(14:10):
Rawn anymore. They were asking whether the LAPD could be
trusted to investigate anyone, especially a black celebrity. And with
the LAPD's history of racism and incompetence, that was a
fight the prosecution couldn't win, no matter how strong their evidence.
By the end of May, I think both sides knew
where this was heading. The prosecution knew their evidence was overwhelming,

(14:32):
but their presentation was failing. The defense knew their client
was guilty, but their strategy was working. The DNA evidence
that should have guaranteed conviction had become just another exhibit
in the case against the LAPD. The scientific proof that
should have ended reasonable doubt had become the foundation for
unreasonable conspiracy theories. May nineteen ninety five was the month

(14:55):
we learned that in celebrity justice narrative, Trump's evidence every time,
the defense had sold a better story about police corruption
than the prosecution had sold about scientific proof, and the
jury was buying what the defense was selling regardless of
what the science was proving. The prosecution spent weeks on

(15:15):
DNA evidence that meant nothing to a jury that had
already decided the LAPD couldn't be trusted with simple evidence collection,
let alone complex scientific analysis. They presented mathematical certainty to
people who preferred political probability, They offered statistical proof to
jurors who wanted emotional truth. They provided scientific evidence to

(15:37):
people who needed moral conviction, And in the end, all
that scientific certainty didn't matter because the jury had stopped
listening to the science and started believing the story. The
story of racist cops framing an innocent black celebrity was
more compelling than the story of DNA evidence proving a
guilty defendant's crimes. May nineteen ninety five, the month science

(16:00):
went to court and lost. The month proof became propaganda
and evidence became irrelevant, The month that proved being right
isn't enough if you can't convince twelve people to care
about being right more than being righteous. That's day five
of eight days of oj May nineteen ninety five, the

(16:21):
month the most powerful scientific evidence in legal history became
meaningless statistics to a jury that had stopped caring about science.
Tomorrow Day six June nineteen ninety five, the month of
the most catastrophic prosecutorial decision in American legal history, when
Chris Darden asked Oja to try on the bloody gloves

(16:42):
and handed him his acquittal on live television. When if
it doesn't fit, you must acquit became more memorable than
one in one hundred seventy million, when a moment of
prosecutorial arrogance destroyed months of evidence. June fifteenth, nineteen ninety five,
the day that changed everything, The day the prosecution snatched

(17:04):
defeat from the jaws of victory with one disastrous decision
that we're still talking about thirty years later. But before
we get to that catastrophe, let me remind you what
may really proved. It proved that OJ Simpson's DNA was
at the crime scene with mathematical certainty. It proved that
he left a genetic fingerprint at the location where two

(17:25):
people were murdered. It proved his guilt beyond any scientific doubt.
It also proved that scientific doubt doesn't matter if you
can create reasonable doubt about the scientists, That mathematical proof
doesn't matter, if you can convince jurors to distrust mathematics,
That being factually correct doesn't matter if you can't be
persuasively convincing. Doctor Robin Cotton presented evidence that should have

(17:49):
convicted O. J. Simpson in any reasonable courtroom. She showed
genetic proof of his presence at the crime scene that
was more reliable than eyewitness testimony, more definitive than fingerprints,
more conclusive than confessions. But this wasn't a reasonable courtroom.
This was celebrity justice, where evidence matters less than narrative,

(18:10):
where science matters less than storytelling, where proof matters less
than performance. The prosecution had won in one hundred and
seventy million odds that they were right. The defense had
twelve jurors who didn't care about odds when they'd already
decided the game was rigged. Nicole Brown, Simpson and Ronald
Goldman deserved better than complicated science lectures and statistical probability explanations.

(18:35):
They deserved prosecutors who could translate evidence into emotion, data
into justice, proof into conviction. Instead, they got experts who
confused the jury and lawyers who forgot that being right
isn't enough. You have to make people want to believe
you're right. May nineteen ninety five was the month the
prosecution proved OJ Simpson was guilty and proved that proving

(18:57):
guilt doesn't guarantee conviction, not when the jury cares more
about the messenger than the message, more about the system
than the evidence, more about sending a message than delivering justice.
Join me tomorrow for June nineteen ninety five, when Chris
Darden made the decision that guaranteed OJ Simpson's freedom and
guaranteed that Nicole and Ron's killer would walk free. I'm

(19:20):
read Carter. The science was clear in May nineteen ninety five,
the verdict was wrong in October, and DNA evidence is
still one in one hundred and seventy million reliable, whether
juries choose to believe it or not,