December 7, 2025 • 23 mins
Reid Carter concludes the John Lennon assassination special. Mark David Chapman's defense planned an insanity defense—paranoid schizophrenia, delusions, the little people in his walls. But on June 22, 1981, Chapman told Judge Dennis Edwards that God ordered him to plead guilty. His attorney objected. Chapman didn't care. Sentenced to 20-years-to-life. August 2025: His fourteenth parole denial. The board cited his "selfish disregard for human life of global consequence" and "the worldwide void he created." Yoko Ono still writes letters opposing release. Chapman is now 70 years old. Next hearing: February 2027. He'll likely die in prison.
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Join our new FB groups page here. Take the poll!
Join the Celebrity Trials community on social media! We're building a passionate group of true crime enthusiasts who love diving deep into the most shocking cases in America.
Follow us on Facebook and Instagram by searching "Celebrity Trials Podcast" on either platform.
You'll get exclusive behind-the-scenes content, breaking news updates on cases we're covering, and early alerts when new episodes drop. Our social media is where Reid Carter's hottest takes live, including reactions that don't make it into the show.
But more importantly, it's where YOU come in. Share your theories, debate the verdicts, and connect with fellow listeners who are just as obsessed with justice as you are. Did the jury get it right? What questions do you still have? Your comments and insights often shape future episodes.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Caalaroga Shark Media. Good morning, I'm Reed Carter. Sunday, December seventh,
twenty twenty five. Yesterday we covered the murder of John
Lennon December eighth, nineteen eighty, Mark David Chapman waiting outside
the Dakota the autograph, the hollow point bullets, the five shots,
(00:25):
John Lennon dying on the floor of his own apartment building,
cassette tapes scattered around him. Today what happened next? The
trial that never was, the insanity defense that was never tested,
And forty five years of Mark David Chapman sitting in
a prison cell, denied parole fourteen times, while the world
(00:46):
still mourns the man he killed. December ninth, nineteen eighty,
the morning after the murder, Mark David Chapman was arraigned
on charges of second degree murder in Manhattan Criminal Court.
He was represented by a quarter apoint of attorney Herbert Adlerberg.
The arraignment lasted minutes. Chapman entered no plea. He was
(01:07):
remanded to Bellevue Hospital for psychiatric evaluation, placed under suicide watch,
the most hated man in America, locked in a padded
room while doctors tried to determine if he was legally insane.
Outside the Dakota, thousands gathered singing Lenin's songs, crying, holding candles,
(01:29):
a spontaneous vigil that would last for days. On December fourteenth,
Yoko Ono called for ten minutes of silence to honor John.
Millions around the world participated. Meanwhile, Chapman's attorney withdrew from
the case. Too many death threats, too much hatred. No
lawyer wanted to defend John Lennon's killer. Eventually, Jonathan Marx
(01:52):
took the case, a criminal defense attorney willing to represent
the unrepresentable, and Marx had a strategy in Sannnity. The
psychiatric evaluations were damning paranoid schizophrenia, delusions of grandeur, the
little people in his walls, the obsession with the catcher
in the rye, the belief that he had become Holden Callfield,
(02:14):
that killing Lenin was somehow saving the world from phoniness.
Doctor Daniel Schwartz, director of forensic psychiatric services at King's
County Hospital, diagnosed Chapman as a paranoid schizophrenic, said Chapman
had literally become John Lennon in his own mind and
killed the real Lenin because he was evil and a phony.
(02:34):
He killed the person who to him represented evil and hypocrisy.
Schwartz testified he killed him physically, he killed himself psychologically.
Another psychiatrist, doctor Dorothy Lewis, said Chapman told her he
summoned devils from high places the night before the murder,
that demons forced him to kill. The insanity defense looked promising.
(02:56):
Chapman might never see the inside of a prison. Instead
ed he'd be committed to a state mental hospital for treatment,
may be released eventually if doctors determined he was no
longer a threat. But Mark David Chapman had other plans.
June twenty second, nineteen eighty one, the trial was about
to begin. Jonathan Marx was ready to present his insanity defense.
(03:20):
Witnesses lined up, psychiatric experts prepared to testify. Then Chapman
told his lawyer he wanted to plead guilty. Mark Subjected
raised serious questions about Chapman's competence to make that decision,
requested further psychiatric evaluation. Chapman was unmoved. He told Judge
Dennis Edwards Junior that God had instructed him to plead guilty,
(03:43):
that he would never change his plea, never appeal regardless
of the sentence. The judge accepted the plea, declared Chapman competent,
set sentencing for August twenty fourth. I'm reed, Carter. This
is celebrity trials today. Mark David Chapman's guilty plea, the sentence,
forty five years in prison, fourteen parole denials, and the
(04:07):
question that haunts Yoko Ono every two years? Will the
man who killed John Lennon ever walk free? Part two
of two, June twenty second, nineteen eighty one. Manhattan State
Supreme Court Judge Dennis Edwards Junior presiding. The courtroom was
packed media from around the world. Security tight. Everyone expected
(04:31):
the beginning of what would be one of the most
sensational trials of the decade. Instead, they got six words
from Mark David Chapman. I plead guilty, your honor. His attorney,
Jonathan Marx, was blindsided. He'd spent months building an insanity
defense expert witnesses psychiatric evaluations, a compelling case that Chapman
(04:54):
was a paranoid schizophrenic who didn't understand the wrongfulness of
his actions. Chapman was throwing it all away. Mister Chapman
has exercised his constitutional right to amend his plea. Judge
Edwards announced he will plead guilty to the charge of
murder in the second degree. Marx told the court he
opposed the plea change, that he had serious questions about
(05:17):
Chapman's mental state, that a man who believed God was
giving him instructions might not be competent to make legal decisions.
But Edwards disagreed, said Chapman had made the decision of
his own free will, declared him competent to plead guilty.
Why did Chapman do it? He gave different explanations over
the years. Said God told him to, Said he wanted
(05:40):
to spare yoko Ono the pain of a lengthy trial.
Said he didn't want to be seen as crazy. The
truth probably all of the above, and something else. Control
Mark David Chapman's entire life was about control. The little
people in his walls who worshiped him, the Holden Caulfield fantasy,
where he decided who was phony and who deserved to live,
(06:03):
the murder itself, choosing who dies and when. A trial
would have taken that control away. Lawyers arguing psychiatrists testifying
a jury deciding his fate. Chapman would have been a
passive observer in his own story. By pleading guilty, he
controlled the narrative, made himself the author of his own ending.
(06:25):
Even in prison, he would be the one who chose
to be there. Make it make sense. He murdered John
Lennon for fame, then pleaded guilty to avoid a trial
that would have kept him in the spotlight for months.
The logic doesn't hold, but logic never applied to Mark
David Chapman. August twenty fourth, nineteen eighty one, sentencing day.
(06:55):
The courtroom was crowded again, cameras everywhere, the whole world watching.
Two psychiatrists testified on Chapman's behalf. Doctor Daniel Schwartz repeated
his diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia, said Chapman had become Lenin
in his own mind and killed him because he was evil.
Doctor Dorothy Lewis described Chapman's claims about summoning devils, his delusions,
(07:20):
his detachment from reality. Prosecutor Alan Sullivan presented evidence that
Chapman had considered killing other celebrities before settling on Lenin.
David Bowie, Johnny Carson, Elizabeth Taylor, Marlon Brando, Walter Cronkite,
George C. Scott, Jacqueline Kennedy, O Nassis, even Ronald Reagan
(07:41):
the only criterion fame Chapman wanted to kill someone famous.
Lenin was the most accessible. Then Chapman was asked if
he had anything to say. He stood, pale, pudgy, clutching
a paperback copy of The Catcher in the Rye, and
he read aloud from the novel, the passage about Holden
Caulfield's fantasy of being the Catcher in the Rye, standing
(08:05):
at the edge of a cliff, catching children before they
fall into the corrupt adult world. The courtroom was silent.
Here was a murderer reading from the book that supposedly
explained his crime, but it explained nothing, just the ramblings
of a fictional teenager weaponized by a disturbed mind. Judge
Edwards pronounced sentence twenty years to life, just five years
(08:29):
less than the maximum of twenty five to life. The
judge also ordered psychiatric treatment during incarceration, said he hoped
doctors could figure out what made Chapman tick, understand the
pathology prevent future tragedies. Chapman showed no emotion, was let
out of the courtroom in handcuffs, transported to Attica Correctional Facility,
(08:52):
the maximum security prison in upstate New York. His wife, Gloria,
was not charged. She knew about his plans. He'd told
her before his second trip to New York, but she
thought he was joking, or crazy, or both. She didn't
take it seriously, and by the time she realized he
was serious, it was too late. They divorced. Eventually, Gloria
(09:15):
returned to Hawaii tried to build a new life, but
she'll always be the woman who was married to John
Lennon's killer. Mark David Chapman entered Attica on August twenty fourth,
nineteen eighty one. He would become eligible for parole on
August twenty fourth, two thousand, nineteen years away, plenty of
time to think about what he'd done, or so the
(09:36):
world hoped. Attica Correctional Facility one of the most notorious
prisons in America, sight of the nineteen seventy one riot
that left forty three people dead, maximum security home to murderers, rapists,
and the worst criminals New York had to offer, and
(09:57):
now home to Mark David Chapman. Prison officials immediately recognized
the problem. Chapman wasn't just a murderer. He was the murderer,
the man who killed John Lennon, a target for anyone
who wanted to make a name for themselves. They put
him in protective custody, solitary confinement, twenty three hours a
day in a cell, one hour for exercise, minimal contact
(10:21):
with other inmates. Chapman's first months were turbulent. In February
nineteen eighty two, he went on a hunger strike, refused
to eat for twenty six days. The New York State
Supreme Court authorized force feeding. He was given liquid nutrients
through a tube. Why the hunger strike, Chapman never fully explained.
(10:43):
Maybe he was seeking attention, Maybe he was trying to
punish himself. Maybe he was just unstable, as the psychiatrists
had said all along. He declined all interview requests for
his first six years. Said he didn't want to give
the impression he'd killed Lenin for fame, that he regretted
the murder, that he was genuinely remorseful. But actions speak
(11:06):
louder than words, and Chapman's actions suggested something else. Journalist
James R. Gaines managed to interview him anyway, wrote an
eighteen thousand words series for People magazine. Chapman later told
the Parole Board he regretted that interview. In nineteen ninety two,
Jack Jones of the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle published let
(11:27):
Me Take You Down Inside the Mind of Mark David Chapman,
based on audio taped interviews with Chapman over several years,
a deep dive into his psychology, his delusions, his rationalizations.
Chapman cooperated with the book, then said he regretted it.
A pattern was emerging. Do something for attention, then claim remorse. Repeat.
(11:52):
Over the years, Chapman was transferred from Attica to various facilities,
eventually landed at Greenhaven Correctional Facility in store Ormville, New York,
about an hour north of Manhattan. He's been there ever since.
In prison, he found religion again, was baptized in the
Protestant faith in May nineteen ninety four, claimed he'd become
(12:12):
a born again Christian again, said he was genuinely repentant.
He also got married in nineteen eighty one, while awaiting sentencing.
He divorced Gloria in June nineteen ninety one, he married again.
Her name has never been publicly disclosed. She visits him regularly.
Conjugal visits were allowed until New York State banned them
(12:34):
for convicted murderers in twenty eleven. Chapman has worked various
jobs in prison, legal clerk, kitchen helper, chapel attendant. He's
described as a model prisoner, follows the rules, doesn't cause trouble,
stays in protective custody to avoid being killed by lenin fans,
and every two years, like clockwork, he applies for parole.
(12:55):
August two thousand, his first parole hearing, twenty years served.
Chapman told the board he wasn't a threat to society,
that John Lennon himself would have approved of his release.
The board denied him. Yoko Ono had submitted a letter
asking them to keep Chapman behind bars, said she feared
for her safety, for Sean's safety, for the safety of
(13:18):
anyone Chapman might target next. That denial set the pattern
for the next quarter century. October two thousand and two denied.
October two thousand and four denied. Yoko wrote again, I
am afraid it will bring back the nightmare, the chaos,
and the description of a vision I experienced when I
saw my husband lying dead. August two thousand and six denied,
(13:42):
August two thousand and eight denied, August twenty ten denied.
Chapman told the board he was obsessed with attention. When
he killed Lenin, I felt like nothing, and I felt
if I shot him, I would become something which is
not true. That's a lie, that's a delusion. August twenty
(14:02):
twelve denied, August twenty fourteen denied, August twenty sixteen denied,
August twenty eighteen denied. Chapman said he felt more and
more shame each year. August twenty twenty denied. I assassinated
him because he was very, very very famous, and that's
the only reason. Chapman told the board, I was very
(14:25):
very very very much seeking self glory, very selfish. August
twenty twenty two, denied twelfth time. The board cited his
selfish disregard for human life of global consequence set his
actions left the world recovering from the void of which
you created. March twenty twenty four denied thirteenth time, August
(14:48):
twenty seventh, twenty twenty five, denied fourteenth time. Just three
months ago. Chapman is now seventy years old. His next
parole hearing is scheduled for February two, twenty twenty seven.
He will likely be denied again and again and again.
The pattern is clear. The board will never release him.
(15:09):
The crime was too notorious, the victim too beloved, the
cultural impact too profound. Mark David Chapman will die in prison,
not because of any single factor, but because he killed
someone who mattered to millions of people, and those people
will never forgive him. We'll be right back with the
(15:29):
legacy of John Lennon's assassination. Why Chapman still represents something
dangerous about fame and forty five years later, why the
world still mourns. Welcome back to celebrity trials. I'm reed.
(15:52):
Carter yoko Ono is ninety two years old, now still
living in the Dakota apartment she shared with John, the
same building where he he was murdered forty five years ago.
Every two years, when Chapman's parole hearing approaches, she writes
a letter. The content varies, but the message is always
the same. Keep him locked up. In twenty fifteen, she
(16:13):
told The Daily Beast, one thing I think is that
he did it once, he could do it again to
somebody else. It could be me, it could be Sean,
it could be anybody. So there is that concern she's
not being paranoid. Chapman had a hit list multiple celebrities
he considered killing before settling on Lenin. What's to stop
(16:34):
him from targeting someone else if released? But Yoko's opposition
goes beyond safety. It's about justice, about honoring John's memory,
about refusing to let his killer walk free while she
still draws breath. Their son, Sean Lennon, is now fifty
years old. He was five when his father was murdered,
remembers almost nothing of that night. Has spent his entire
(16:56):
adult life in the shadow of that tragedy. Sean has
spoken about Chapman rarely. What is there to say The
man who killed your father applies for freedom every two years.
You have to relive the worst moment of your life
over and over. There's no closure, there's no healing, just
an endless cycle of parole hearings and denials. John's other son,
(17:17):
Julian from his first marriage to Cynthia Powell, was seventeen
in nineteen eighty living in England, learned of his father's
death the same way the rest of the world did,
through the news. Julian and John had a complicated relationship,
estranged for years, reconnecting shortly before the murder. Julian never
got the chance to fully know his father as an adult.
(17:40):
That opportunity was stolen. Both sons carry the weight of
Chapman's crime. Both live with a whole that can never
be filled. And then there's the cultural impact. John Lennon's
assassination marked the end of something the sixties dream, the
belief that music could change the world, the innocence of
celebrity culture. Before December eighth, nineteen eighty, famous people were accessible.
(18:03):
They walked among us, signed autographs, took pictures. John Lennon
loved that about New York, that he could walk the
streets without bodyguards, that fans would say hey John, and
he'd say hey back. After December eighth, nineteen eighty, everything changed.
Celebrities became walled off, protected by security teams, separated from
(18:25):
their fans by layers of handlers and protocol. Chapman didn't
just kill John Lennon, He killed the possibility of casual
contact between stars and their admirers. He made everyone afraid,
and he inspired others. John Hinckley Junior shot President Ronald
Reagan in March nineteen eighty one, just four months after
Lenin's murder. His motivation. He was obsessed with actress Jody Foster,
(18:49):
wanted to impress her, wanted to become famous. Hinckley later
said he was inspired by Chapman, saw how much attention
the Lenin assassination received wanted that attention for himself. The
Reagan shooting led to stricter gun control laws, the Brady Bill,
named after Press Secretary James Brady, who was seriously wounded
in the attack, but it also demonstrated something disturbing. Fame
(19:12):
seekers were willing to kill for attention, and Chapman had
shown them how. Robert Bardo shot actress Rebecca Schaeffer in
nineteen eighty nine. Obsessed fan wanted to be famous. Same pattern.
The celebrity stalker phenomenon exploded in the nineteen eighties and
nineteen nineties. New laws were passed, restraining orders, anti stalking statutes,
(19:35):
all because Mark David Chapman proved that fans could be dangerous.
Chapman's parole hearings have become their own cultural ritual. Every
two years, the news cycle revisits the murder, replays the footage,
interviews the witnesses, reminds us what we lost. In the
twenty twenty two hearing, the transcript was later released, Chapman
(19:56):
was asked about his motivations. His answer was chilling in
its I knew it was wrong, I knew it was evil,
but I wanted the fame so much that I was
willing to give everything and take a human life. He
told the board he had evil in my heart, that
killing Lenin was his big answer to everything, that he
was never going to be a nobody anymore. The Board's response,
(20:20):
the worldwide impact of your crime resonates such as to
evoke images, memories, and emotions internationally. Your release at this
time would be incompatible with the welfare of society. Incompatible
with the welfare of society, that's the key phrase. It's
not about rehabilitation. Chapman has been a model prisoner for
(20:41):
forty five years. It's not about punishment, he served far
longer than most murderers. It's about what his release would mean,
the message it would send that you can kill a
cultural icon and eventually walk free. That's why the board
keeps denying him, and that's why they'll keep denying him
until he dies. Mark David Chapman is seventy years old.
(21:03):
He'll be seventy two at his next parole hearing in
February twenty twenty seven. His health is declining, his time
is running out, and somewhere in the Dakota, Yoko Ono waits,
ready to write another letter, ready to fight another battle,
ready to make sure the man who killed her husband
never sees freedom. Some people call that vindictive. Some people
(21:26):
say she should forgive, move on, let go. But forgiveness
is for people who can't do anything else. Yoko Ono
can do something. She can make sure Mark David Chapman
dies in prison, and she will. That's not revenge, that's justice.
That's part two of our John Lennon Assassination Special. Monday
(21:47):
marks forty five years since December eighth, nineteen eighty, forty
five years since Mark David Chapman waited outside the Dakota,
got an autograph, fired, five shots, changed the world. N
Lennon was forty years old, singer, songwriter, activist, dreamer, father,
husband gone in seconds. Because it disturbed nobody wanted to
(22:10):
be somebody. Chapman got what he wanted. We're still talking
about him, still saying his name, still giving him the
attention he craved. But we're also still talking about John,
still playing his music, still dreaming his dreams. The peace sign,
the bed INDs, the hope that love could overcome hate.
Chapman killed the man he couldn't kill the message. Fourteen
(22:34):
parole denials, next hearing February twenty twenty seven, then again
in twenty twenty nine and two thousand and thirty one,
until Mark David Chapman dies behind bars, which he almost
certainly will. Is that justice? Maybe? Is it enough? No?
Nothing is enough. Nothing brings John back, nothing fills the void.
(22:58):
All we can do is remember John Winston Ono Lennon
born October ninth, nineteen forty died December eighth, nineteen eighty
forty years old. Rest in peace, John, The world still
misses you. I'm reed Carter Tomorrow. Back to regular trial coverage.
This is celebrity trials
Caalaroga Shark Media. Good morning, I'm Reed Carter. Sunday, December seventh,
twenty twenty five. Yesterday we covered the murder of John
Lennon December eighth, nineteen eighty, Mark David Chapman waiting outside
the Dakota the autograph, the hollow point bullets, the five shots,
(00:25):
John Lennon dying on the floor of his own apartment building,
cassette tapes scattered around him. Today what happened next? The
trial that never was, the insanity defense that was never tested,
And forty five years of Mark David Chapman sitting in
a prison cell, denied parole fourteen times, while the world
(00:46):
still mourns the man he killed. December ninth, nineteen eighty,
the morning after the murder, Mark David Chapman was arraigned
on charges of second degree murder in Manhattan Criminal Court.
He was represented by a quarter apoint of attorney Herbert Adlerberg.
The arraignment lasted minutes. Chapman entered no plea. He was
(01:07):
remanded to Bellevue Hospital for psychiatric evaluation, placed under suicide watch,
the most hated man in America, locked in a padded
room while doctors tried to determine if he was legally insane.
Outside the Dakota, thousands gathered singing Lenin's songs, crying, holding candles,
(01:29):
a spontaneous vigil that would last for days. On December fourteenth,
Yoko Ono called for ten minutes of silence to honor John.
Millions around the world participated. Meanwhile, Chapman's attorney withdrew from
the case. Too many death threats, too much hatred. No
lawyer wanted to defend John Lennon's killer. Eventually, Jonathan Marx
(01:52):
took the case, a criminal defense attorney willing to represent
the unrepresentable, and Marx had a strategy in Sannnity. The
psychiatric evaluations were damning paranoid schizophrenia, delusions of grandeur, the
little people in his walls, the obsession with the catcher
in the rye, the belief that he had become Holden Callfield,
(02:14):
that killing Lenin was somehow saving the world from phoniness.
Doctor Daniel Schwartz, director of forensic psychiatric services at King's
County Hospital, diagnosed Chapman as a paranoid schizophrenic, said Chapman
had literally become John Lennon in his own mind and
killed the real Lenin because he was evil and a phony.
(02:34):
He killed the person who to him represented evil and hypocrisy.
Schwartz testified he killed him physically, he killed himself psychologically.
Another psychiatrist, doctor Dorothy Lewis, said Chapman told her he
summoned devils from high places the night before the murder,
that demons forced him to kill. The insanity defense looked promising.
(02:56):
Chapman might never see the inside of a prison. Instead
ed he'd be committed to a state mental hospital for treatment,
may be released eventually if doctors determined he was no
longer a threat. But Mark David Chapman had other plans.
June twenty second, nineteen eighty one, the trial was about
to begin. Jonathan Marx was ready to present his insanity defense.
(03:20):
Witnesses lined up, psychiatric experts prepared to testify. Then Chapman
told his lawyer he wanted to plead guilty. Mark Subjected
raised serious questions about Chapman's competence to make that decision,
requested further psychiatric evaluation. Chapman was unmoved. He told Judge
Dennis Edwards Junior that God had instructed him to plead guilty,
(03:43):
that he would never change his plea, never appeal regardless
of the sentence. The judge accepted the plea, declared Chapman competent,
set sentencing for August twenty fourth. I'm reed, Carter. This
is celebrity trials today. Mark David Chapman's guilty plea, the sentence,
forty five years in prison, fourteen parole denials, and the
(04:07):
question that haunts Yoko Ono every two years? Will the
man who killed John Lennon ever walk free? Part two
of two, June twenty second, nineteen eighty one. Manhattan State
Supreme Court Judge Dennis Edwards Junior presiding. The courtroom was
packed media from around the world. Security tight. Everyone expected
(04:31):
the beginning of what would be one of the most
sensational trials of the decade. Instead, they got six words
from Mark David Chapman. I plead guilty, your honor. His attorney,
Jonathan Marx, was blindsided. He'd spent months building an insanity
defense expert witnesses psychiatric evaluations, a compelling case that Chapman
(04:54):
was a paranoid schizophrenic who didn't understand the wrongfulness of
his actions. Chapman was throwing it all away. Mister Chapman
has exercised his constitutional right to amend his plea. Judge
Edwards announced he will plead guilty to the charge of
murder in the second degree. Marx told the court he
opposed the plea change, that he had serious questions about
(05:17):
Chapman's mental state, that a man who believed God was
giving him instructions might not be competent to make legal decisions.
But Edwards disagreed, said Chapman had made the decision of
his own free will, declared him competent to plead guilty.
Why did Chapman do it? He gave different explanations over
the years. Said God told him to, Said he wanted
(05:40):
to spare yoko Ono the pain of a lengthy trial.
Said he didn't want to be seen as crazy. The
truth probably all of the above, and something else. Control
Mark David Chapman's entire life was about control. The little
people in his walls who worshiped him, the Holden Caulfield fantasy,
where he decided who was phony and who deserved to live,
(06:03):
the murder itself, choosing who dies and when. A trial
would have taken that control away. Lawyers arguing psychiatrists testifying
a jury deciding his fate. Chapman would have been a
passive observer in his own story. By pleading guilty, he
controlled the narrative, made himself the author of his own ending.
(06:25):
Even in prison, he would be the one who chose
to be there. Make it make sense. He murdered John
Lennon for fame, then pleaded guilty to avoid a trial
that would have kept him in the spotlight for months.
The logic doesn't hold, but logic never applied to Mark
David Chapman. August twenty fourth, nineteen eighty one, sentencing day.
(06:55):
The courtroom was crowded again, cameras everywhere, the whole world watching.
Two psychiatrists testified on Chapman's behalf. Doctor Daniel Schwartz repeated
his diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia, said Chapman had become Lenin
in his own mind and killed him because he was evil.
Doctor Dorothy Lewis described Chapman's claims about summoning devils, his delusions,
(07:20):
his detachment from reality. Prosecutor Alan Sullivan presented evidence that
Chapman had considered killing other celebrities before settling on Lenin.
David Bowie, Johnny Carson, Elizabeth Taylor, Marlon Brando, Walter Cronkite,
George C. Scott, Jacqueline Kennedy, O Nassis, even Ronald Reagan
(07:41):
the only criterion fame Chapman wanted to kill someone famous.
Lenin was the most accessible. Then Chapman was asked if
he had anything to say. He stood, pale, pudgy, clutching
a paperback copy of The Catcher in the Rye, and
he read aloud from the novel, the passage about Holden
Caulfield's fantasy of being the Catcher in the Rye, standing
(08:05):
at the edge of a cliff, catching children before they
fall into the corrupt adult world. The courtroom was silent.
Here was a murderer reading from the book that supposedly
explained his crime, but it explained nothing, just the ramblings
of a fictional teenager weaponized by a disturbed mind. Judge
Edwards pronounced sentence twenty years to life, just five years
(08:29):
less than the maximum of twenty five to life. The
judge also ordered psychiatric treatment during incarceration, said he hoped
doctors could figure out what made Chapman tick, understand the
pathology prevent future tragedies. Chapman showed no emotion, was let
out of the courtroom in handcuffs, transported to Attica Correctional Facility,
(08:52):
the maximum security prison in upstate New York. His wife, Gloria,
was not charged. She knew about his plans. He'd told
her before his second trip to New York, but she
thought he was joking, or crazy, or both. She didn't
take it seriously, and by the time she realized he
was serious, it was too late. They divorced. Eventually, Gloria
(09:15):
returned to Hawaii tried to build a new life, but
she'll always be the woman who was married to John
Lennon's killer. Mark David Chapman entered Attica on August twenty fourth,
nineteen eighty one. He would become eligible for parole on
August twenty fourth, two thousand, nineteen years away, plenty of
time to think about what he'd done, or so the
(09:36):
world hoped. Attica Correctional Facility one of the most notorious
prisons in America, sight of the nineteen seventy one riot
that left forty three people dead, maximum security home to murderers, rapists,
and the worst criminals New York had to offer, and
(09:57):
now home to Mark David Chapman. Prison officials immediately recognized
the problem. Chapman wasn't just a murderer. He was the murderer,
the man who killed John Lennon, a target for anyone
who wanted to make a name for themselves. They put
him in protective custody, solitary confinement, twenty three hours a
day in a cell, one hour for exercise, minimal contact
(10:21):
with other inmates. Chapman's first months were turbulent. In February
nineteen eighty two, he went on a hunger strike, refused
to eat for twenty six days. The New York State
Supreme Court authorized force feeding. He was given liquid nutrients
through a tube. Why the hunger strike, Chapman never fully explained.
(10:43):
Maybe he was seeking attention, Maybe he was trying to
punish himself. Maybe he was just unstable, as the psychiatrists
had said all along. He declined all interview requests for
his first six years. Said he didn't want to give
the impression he'd killed Lenin for fame, that he regretted
the murder, that he was genuinely remorseful. But actions speak
(11:06):
louder than words, and Chapman's actions suggested something else. Journalist
James R. Gaines managed to interview him anyway, wrote an
eighteen thousand words series for People magazine. Chapman later told
the Parole Board he regretted that interview. In nineteen ninety two,
Jack Jones of the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle published let
(11:27):
Me Take You Down Inside the Mind of Mark David Chapman,
based on audio taped interviews with Chapman over several years,
a deep dive into his psychology, his delusions, his rationalizations.
Chapman cooperated with the book, then said he regretted it.
A pattern was emerging. Do something for attention, then claim remorse. Repeat.
(11:52):
Over the years, Chapman was transferred from Attica to various facilities,
eventually landed at Greenhaven Correctional Facility in store Ormville, New York,
about an hour north of Manhattan. He's been there ever since.
In prison, he found religion again, was baptized in the
Protestant faith in May nineteen ninety four, claimed he'd become
(12:12):
a born again Christian again, said he was genuinely repentant.
He also got married in nineteen eighty one, while awaiting sentencing.
He divorced Gloria in June nineteen ninety one, he married again.
Her name has never been publicly disclosed. She visits him regularly.
Conjugal visits were allowed until New York State banned them
(12:34):
for convicted murderers in twenty eleven. Chapman has worked various
jobs in prison, legal clerk, kitchen helper, chapel attendant. He's
described as a model prisoner, follows the rules, doesn't cause trouble,
stays in protective custody to avoid being killed by lenin fans,
and every two years, like clockwork, he applies for parole.
(12:55):
August two thousand, his first parole hearing, twenty years served.
Chapman told the board he wasn't a threat to society,
that John Lennon himself would have approved of his release.
The board denied him. Yoko Ono had submitted a letter
asking them to keep Chapman behind bars, said she feared
for her safety, for Sean's safety, for the safety of
(13:18):
anyone Chapman might target next. That denial set the pattern
for the next quarter century. October two thousand and two denied.
October two thousand and four denied. Yoko wrote again, I
am afraid it will bring back the nightmare, the chaos,
and the description of a vision I experienced when I
saw my husband lying dead. August two thousand and six denied,
(13:42):
August two thousand and eight denied, August twenty ten denied.
Chapman told the board he was obsessed with attention. When
he killed Lenin, I felt like nothing, and I felt
if I shot him, I would become something which is
not true. That's a lie, that's a delusion. August twenty
(14:02):
twelve denied, August twenty fourteen denied, August twenty sixteen denied,
August twenty eighteen denied. Chapman said he felt more and
more shame each year. August twenty twenty denied. I assassinated
him because he was very, very very famous, and that's
the only reason. Chapman told the board, I was very
(14:25):
very very very much seeking self glory, very selfish. August
twenty twenty two, denied twelfth time. The board cited his
selfish disregard for human life of global consequence set his
actions left the world recovering from the void of which
you created. March twenty twenty four denied thirteenth time, August
(14:48):
twenty seventh, twenty twenty five, denied fourteenth time. Just three
months ago. Chapman is now seventy years old. His next
parole hearing is scheduled for February two, twenty twenty seven.
He will likely be denied again and again and again.
The pattern is clear. The board will never release him.
(15:09):
The crime was too notorious, the victim too beloved, the
cultural impact too profound. Mark David Chapman will die in prison,
not because of any single factor, but because he killed
someone who mattered to millions of people, and those people
will never forgive him. We'll be right back with the
(15:29):
legacy of John Lennon's assassination. Why Chapman still represents something
dangerous about fame and forty five years later, why the
world still mourns. Welcome back to celebrity trials. I'm reed.
(15:52):
Carter yoko Ono is ninety two years old, now still
living in the Dakota apartment she shared with John, the
same building where he he was murdered forty five years ago.
Every two years, when Chapman's parole hearing approaches, she writes
a letter. The content varies, but the message is always
the same. Keep him locked up. In twenty fifteen, she
(16:13):
told The Daily Beast, one thing I think is that
he did it once, he could do it again to
somebody else. It could be me, it could be Sean,
it could be anybody. So there is that concern she's
not being paranoid. Chapman had a hit list multiple celebrities
he considered killing before settling on Lenin. What's to stop
(16:34):
him from targeting someone else if released? But Yoko's opposition
goes beyond safety. It's about justice, about honoring John's memory,
about refusing to let his killer walk free while she
still draws breath. Their son, Sean Lennon, is now fifty
years old. He was five when his father was murdered,
remembers almost nothing of that night. Has spent his entire
(16:56):
adult life in the shadow of that tragedy. Sean has
spoken about Chapman rarely. What is there to say The
man who killed your father applies for freedom every two years.
You have to relive the worst moment of your life
over and over. There's no closure, there's no healing, just
an endless cycle of parole hearings and denials. John's other son,
(17:17):
Julian from his first marriage to Cynthia Powell, was seventeen
in nineteen eighty living in England, learned of his father's
death the same way the rest of the world did,
through the news. Julian and John had a complicated relationship,
estranged for years, reconnecting shortly before the murder. Julian never
got the chance to fully know his father as an adult.
(17:40):
That opportunity was stolen. Both sons carry the weight of
Chapman's crime. Both live with a whole that can never
be filled. And then there's the cultural impact. John Lennon's
assassination marked the end of something the sixties dream, the
belief that music could change the world, the innocence of
celebrity culture. Before December eighth, nineteen eighty, famous people were accessible.
(18:03):
They walked among us, signed autographs, took pictures. John Lennon
loved that about New York, that he could walk the
streets without bodyguards, that fans would say hey John, and
he'd say hey back. After December eighth, nineteen eighty, everything changed.
Celebrities became walled off, protected by security teams, separated from
(18:25):
their fans by layers of handlers and protocol. Chapman didn't
just kill John Lennon, He killed the possibility of casual
contact between stars and their admirers. He made everyone afraid,
and he inspired others. John Hinckley Junior shot President Ronald
Reagan in March nineteen eighty one, just four months after
Lenin's murder. His motivation. He was obsessed with actress Jody Foster,
(18:49):
wanted to impress her, wanted to become famous. Hinckley later
said he was inspired by Chapman, saw how much attention
the Lenin assassination received wanted that attention for himself. The
Reagan shooting led to stricter gun control laws, the Brady Bill,
named after Press Secretary James Brady, who was seriously wounded
in the attack, but it also demonstrated something disturbing. Fame
(19:12):
seekers were willing to kill for attention, and Chapman had
shown them how. Robert Bardo shot actress Rebecca Schaeffer in
nineteen eighty nine. Obsessed fan wanted to be famous. Same pattern.
The celebrity stalker phenomenon exploded in the nineteen eighties and
nineteen nineties. New laws were passed, restraining orders, anti stalking statutes,
(19:35):
all because Mark David Chapman proved that fans could be dangerous.
Chapman's parole hearings have become their own cultural ritual. Every
two years, the news cycle revisits the murder, replays the footage,
interviews the witnesses, reminds us what we lost. In the
twenty twenty two hearing, the transcript was later released, Chapman
(19:56):
was asked about his motivations. His answer was chilling in
its I knew it was wrong, I knew it was evil,
but I wanted the fame so much that I was
willing to give everything and take a human life. He
told the board he had evil in my heart, that
killing Lenin was his big answer to everything, that he
was never going to be a nobody anymore. The Board's response,
(20:20):
the worldwide impact of your crime resonates such as to
evoke images, memories, and emotions internationally. Your release at this
time would be incompatible with the welfare of society. Incompatible
with the welfare of society, that's the key phrase. It's
not about rehabilitation. Chapman has been a model prisoner for
(20:41):
forty five years. It's not about punishment, he served far
longer than most murderers. It's about what his release would mean,
the message it would send that you can kill a
cultural icon and eventually walk free. That's why the board
keeps denying him, and that's why they'll keep denying him
until he dies. Mark David Chapman is seventy years old.
(21:03):
He'll be seventy two at his next parole hearing in
February twenty twenty seven. His health is declining, his time
is running out, and somewhere in the Dakota, Yoko Ono waits,
ready to write another letter, ready to fight another battle,
ready to make sure the man who killed her husband
never sees freedom. Some people call that vindictive. Some people
(21:26):
say she should forgive, move on, let go. But forgiveness
is for people who can't do anything else. Yoko Ono
can do something. She can make sure Mark David Chapman
dies in prison, and she will. That's not revenge, that's justice.
That's part two of our John Lennon Assassination Special. Monday
(21:47):
marks forty five years since December eighth, nineteen eighty, forty
five years since Mark David Chapman waited outside the Dakota,
got an autograph, fired, five shots, changed the world. N
Lennon was forty years old, singer, songwriter, activist, dreamer, father,
husband gone in seconds. Because it disturbed nobody wanted to
(22:10):
be somebody. Chapman got what he wanted. We're still talking
about him, still saying his name, still giving him the
attention he craved. But we're also still talking about John,
still playing his music, still dreaming his dreams. The peace sign,
the bed INDs, the hope that love could overcome hate.
Chapman killed the man he couldn't kill the message. Fourteen
(22:34):
parole denials, next hearing February twenty twenty seven, then again
in twenty twenty nine and two thousand and thirty one,
until Mark David Chapman dies behind bars, which he almost
certainly will. Is that justice? Maybe? Is it enough? No?
Nothing is enough. Nothing brings John back, nothing fills the void.
(22:58):
All we can do is remember John Winston Ono Lennon
born October ninth, nineteen forty died December eighth, nineteen eighty
forty years old. Rest in peace, John, The world still
misses you. I'm reed Carter Tomorrow. Back to regular trial coverage.
This is celebrity trials
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