From Kargil to Galwan: Untold tales of unparalleled valour | Chakravyuh | Ep 06 - Chakravyuh

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is in the Today podcasts.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
In the battlefield of Kurukh Yogishwa, Shri Krishna tells Arjun
Hatova prophecy Swargam j Mahim Tasmat you dai kristnischya.

Speaker 3 (00:22):
If you're killed in battle, you go to heaven.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
If you win, you rule over earth as beautiful as heaven. Therefore,
O kunti putre, take a firm, resolve and fight.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
My guest on this Chuk.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Review special broadcast and podcast is someone who epitomizes living
by the teachings of the shrim A scholar, warrior, a soldier,
a diplomat warrior, a humane warrior who is buried Pakistani
soldiers in war, both literally and figuratively. It is my

(01:04):
proud privilege to welcome on this podcast, Lieutnan General yk
Joshi Chakra PVSM A v sm SM Sir, welcome all podcast.

Speaker 4 (01:18):
Thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:19):
It's a pleasure to be here and it's a pleasure
to be meeting you again. You know, I recall that
first time we met u twenty six years ago during
the Cargio War in the dark.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
And Sir, even then, when I saw you in battle, Uh,
you know, I said this is one colonel who is
so dashing and so fearless, because it was my privilege
to see you, Captain Wick. Butra Uh, you know who
won a Para Chakra sadly posthumously, Rifleman Sanjay Kumar who

(01:52):
won a Paramir Chakra, and you were commanding the bravest
of the brave thirteen Jakriff in combat. I want our
viewers to know about that and to know how that
Cargil War was fought in nineteen ninety nine, and the
general story is truly the story of India's wars and
struggles against two very hostile adversaries, whether on our northern

(02:15):
borders or on our western borders.

Speaker 3 (02:18):
Right from the nineteen nineties till date and.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
General that's exactly why I think this podcast is very
very important for this generation to know and for future
generations to know, not just about the Cargile War, but
from Cargile War to Op Snow Leopard. You were army
commander that time, and you've spent all your life whether
you were commanding a battalion, it was in Ladakh. You

(02:43):
commanded your brigade in Ladak, you commanded the division in Ladak,
you commanded the core in Ladakh. So you were dealing
with the Chinese and the Pakistanese all your life.

Speaker 3 (02:51):
Let's begin, and you commanded the Northern Army, So let's
begin right from the beginning, Sir. Nineteen nineteen nine.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Everyone knows about wah Indoor, Pakistanki Beach Lahore.

Speaker 3 (03:05):
You were posted in Jamu and Kashmir.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
And what was happening that time when suddenly the guns
started booming in in Kargil.

Speaker 5 (03:14):
So going back twenty six years, in the year nineteen
ninety nine, my battalion was deployed in the valley in
Sopor doing counter terrorist operations in that area. The battalion
had completed about two years and we were finishing a
tenure and we were to move out to a peace station.
And I, at the second in command, had already taken
the advanced party to a place called sha Jahpur close

(03:37):
to now where the unit was to move for his
peace tenure, and I was doing the hand take over
there with the relieving battalion. We were to relieve and
then Kargil happened. So overnight from shah Jahpur, you know,
in fact, initially from Sopor, my battalion was the inducted
part of eight Mountain Division across the Sosula passed to
a place called Gumri to be part of the you know,

(04:00):
kargo operations operations v JA and my advanced party was
also directed to go back and join the unit back
in Guomri for the cargo operations. So overnight we moved
to Chandigard and we were flown in al seventy six.
I still recall it very clearly to Shinagar and tenth
of June, you know, I moved in a convoy and

(04:21):
crossed the Zilla Pass and joined my battalion in that
place which I'm talking about, Gumri. And this was the
first time actually I was entering Ladakh and I didn't
know you know that for my rest of my fortieth
of service, I'll continue to be in Ladakh, you know,
or connected to Ladak in some way or the other.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
Amazing were you also on that high that time.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
That you know, then Prime Minister Albihari watch he had
traveled to Lahore, you know, Navasharif had received him very well,
and there was this talk of new dawn of friendship
between India and Pakistan. And Aman Kiyasha was to happen
and suddenly Kargo happened.

Speaker 3 (04:58):
What were your thoughts that time.

Speaker 5 (05:00):
Yeah, so it was a big stab in the back.
You know, we were all monitoring what's happening in the
media and the visits that were taking place that will
be very watched by going across. Of course, one thing
that did strike us was it Rough did not salute
the Prime Minister because he had already this plan in place,
which we came to know, you know, immediately after the
Amankeyasha happened, that stab in the back which took place,

(05:23):
So that of course, you know, was a very bad
vibe that Pakistan sort of gave us that time.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Now, I was in Kargil that time as a young
reporter when I first met him that time. Initially they
were the Pakistanis were shelling very extensively, and they were
very extensively. Then you know, they had come into Indian
territory almost across one hundred and fifty kilometers long area
from the Mushcow Valley through drass Cocks, Cargill, Batalic, Siach

(05:57):
and Glacier is the southern part and you know subsector
honey tour took area they had already come in and
they were shelling. Heavy artillery shelling was taking place and
hitting the Dras Brigade.

Speaker 3 (06:09):
Sir.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
When you were inducted Tololing operations were just being planned
because initially the Beaufors guns hadn't been inducted. And each
time our patrols were going up, we had more body
bags coming down.

Speaker 4 (06:20):
Yes, so it was a very challenging situation.

Speaker 5 (06:23):
And to continue with where I left earlier tenth of June,
you know, I joined the battalion at Gumrie eleventh of June.
We were placed under command fifty six Mountain Brigade which
was at Dras to be reserved for the capture of
Thololing eleventh of Junior.

Speaker 4 (06:37):
Place hund command. Twelfth of June.

Speaker 5 (06:39):
You know, the unit moved to Dras and the thirteenth
night I was sitting on top of Thololing.

Speaker 3 (06:44):
Wow.

Speaker 4 (06:44):
So that is the speed with which the.

Speaker 5 (06:46):
Operations were you know, being carried out in that area.

Speaker 4 (06:50):
And it was extremely challenging.

Speaker 5 (06:51):
You know, the terrain there is extremely challenging, you know,
hultitude sixteen tw eighteen thousand feet through temperatures, rareified atmosphere,
not a blade of grass, you know, to take cover
and On top of that, the enemy is sitting on
top in dormiting positions, you know, with their guns pointing
down at us. Along with the approaches along which we

(07:13):
were to attack and recapture. These features so very very
challenging times. But it is only the Indian Army, you know,
which could have done what we did during Operation Jay.

Speaker 3 (07:22):
Brilliant, Brilliant.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
Thirteenth June is a day which nobody in the Indian
Armed Forces and our country should ever forget the first
victory from the twenty sixth of May when Kargil victory
was declared. That was the time, sir, that when Kargil
viche they started. That was the time that the Pakistanis
was shelling us and each time our patrols went up

(07:45):
they went missing or Kakser you must have what were
you told about Kaser when sort of Kalia's patrol went
missing and he was apparently tortured by the Pakistani's very
bad Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 5 (07:55):
We came to know much later because we were you know,
part of our own operations in the area of Dras
and Mashcow Valley. But a lot of rumors were that time,
you know, it was the initial stages of the battle.
We're being inducted into the to capture these features. And
initially there were a lot of rumors floating, well, not sure

(08:15):
that who are these people sitting on top?

Speaker 4 (08:17):
What is the strength?

Speaker 5 (08:18):
You know, much strength is the Park Army regulars or
is it you know, terrorI some terrorist sitting there? But slowly, slowly,
By the time you know, we launched operations, we had
a lot of clarity with regard to their strength and
we were very clear that the Park Army soldiers who
were sitting on top, occupying the dominating features were infiltrated
across and occupied these features.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
And totaling was like mission impossible initially when one hundred
guns boomed together, one hundred you know from a one
hundred and fifty five mm how it's to one thirty
mm to field guns and in that soldiers were climbing
on top.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
Once Totoling was captured, you were on top of total two.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
Raj Riff was was the battalion that went into totaling.

Speaker 3 (08:58):
The next biggest task was given to you.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
It was baptism by fire for you, what was your
task the moment you got on top of throtolling, So
Thotoling was just a stepping stone. The Pakistanis were on
all dominating positions including Tiger Hill and four and seventy five.

Speaker 5 (09:14):
Absolutely, so thirteenth of June night, you know, thirteenth of June,
Throlling was captured and we were given orders and in
the morning that that thirteen jacter will now move up
on top of Throtlling and progress operations from Torolling top
to the balance of the Throlling ridge, which you know
led up two point five on four zero, and in

(09:34):
between that we had a huge feature called ham Complex
which was partially captured by eighteen grenadiers.

Speaker 4 (09:41):
Correct, So we moved in.

Speaker 5 (09:44):
And I may also tell you that thirteen night, when
I reached the top of Totolling, you know, we won
a very heavy artist shelling. Five and four zero was
not yet captured and we were getting direct machine gun
fire onto us from point five and four zero. So
the moment was very slow. You know, troops were barely acclimatized.
Actually because fifth of June the unit had reached tenth

(10:06):
of June, I had myself reached. I barely got any acclimatization,
So the movement was very very slow. Plus the artist
shelling and machine gun fire coming from five and four zero.
We started in the morning at around nine and by
around two thirty at night is when I linked up
with grain Is.

Speaker 4 (10:22):
On top of totling.

Speaker 3 (10:23):
Wow, so how old were you that time? How old
was that time?

Speaker 2 (10:28):
That is c O and two ice of two different battalions,
and both that performed exceptionally.

Speaker 3 (10:32):
Well, you were leading from the front, yeah, so on
top of totaling.

Speaker 4 (10:37):
Absolutely.

Speaker 5 (10:38):
So the first three people to reach from my talent
tolling were me, my doctor, and third was my radio
operator Mohan to three of us and the rest of
the companies of following up, of course, but my aim
was to link up with gren Is at the earliest,
you know, and so that is why I was moving ahead.
So once I Metre I still recall very clearly, you know,

(11:01):
two thirte in the morning, he was sitting in a
pit and he shook hands with me. I sat down
with him, and uh, you know, we exchanged a little
bit of notes and continuously at that time also artist
shelling was going on and within about half and a half,
forfteen minutes, you know, it gets daylighted a little early
in those altitudes. When daylight broke, you know, when I
saw around me, I saw, you know, seven bodies of

(11:25):
soldiers of eighteen Grenadiers who had laid down the life
the same night in artist shelling. My god, and when
I you know, looked at that, you know, that gave
me my first sort of understanding of what lay you know,
in store ahead for me as far as the cargo
war is concerned.

Speaker 4 (11:44):
You know, it was very very difficult times.

Speaker 5 (11:46):
And when I was trying to absorb this situation, trying
to digest, you know, what exactly is happening around you know,
where the enemy is and where the eighteen Grenadia, et cetera.
You know, my radio oprator came to me, Muhan and
told me that Modpuri the Juicy wants to speak to you.
And I was a little in the back that why
should the UC want to speak to me? But he
came on the net and we won the radio net,
and he said that you know, your CEO has been

(12:08):
taken ill he's been evacuated, and you take over the battalion.
You know, there was total silence from my side, and
you know, it took me some time to digest that,
and he again repeated any doubts Joe He's called me, Joe,
and I said, so no doubts. I said, okay, all
the best, you know, make your plans and report your
brigate commander out. And you know, suddenly I was the

(12:32):
commanding officer of the battalion in the middle of the war.
And there can be nothing more challenging than this, because
you know, the first thing that came to my mind is,
you know, that's second in command. You know you're giving
advice to the CEO, and you know, making plans, and
but the rifle is not being fired from your shoulder.
Now I will have to start making my plans. I
will give the orders, and on my orders, you know,

(12:53):
companies will launch attacks on these areas which the Pakistanis
had occupied and people even later, the lives so diresing that,
you know, magnimity of the situation at that moment was
a huge, huge challenge for me. At the beginning of
the Cargo War, you know, we had just started there
apps for thirteen jah absolutely uh.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
And then I remember, because I wasn't drass reporting, I
was at the Dras Brigade, and I remember you were
tasked and you had two companies with you that that
you had launched for for five one four zero to
attack from two different sides and very brave officers including
Captain Wick and Captain a Major Jumbal. Correct, please tell

(13:34):
us about that's a how was five one four zero?

Speaker 5 (13:36):
So initially I you know, we inducted Alpha Company and
captured the rest of the area of the Hump complex
which was interlinking between Tololing and five and four zero.
That had to be cleared first before we could launch
the attack on point five and four zero.

Speaker 4 (13:50):
So that was our first success. You know, the entire
Hump complex, if you see closing, you have walked up
with throlling yourself at twenty years of Cargill is big,
big boulders.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
I will tell you that story about my climbing totalingk
to interview him twenty years after cargo when he was
commanding a core in cargo for India today. I had
done that interview, but that's a story that we will
come to in just a bit.

Speaker 3 (14:16):
So please please tell us someone to go on.

Speaker 5 (14:19):
So the entire Hump complex was big, big Boulders said.
Each boulder was acting like a bunker or a hunger
for the Park soldiers who were deployed there, and one
sniper behind one boulder could.

Speaker 4 (14:32):
Stop a battleon attack into the area. So that was
the challenge.

Speaker 5 (14:35):
And while we moved Alpha Company, but initially it was
very difficult to move ahead because of the reasons that
I've just mentioned. So we tried innovation. You know, in
battle there's one of the important lessons that we learned
that you have to innuate. So the rocket launchers that
we were firing at close proximity, you know, to disloy
the enemy and then launch the attack, were not successful

(14:57):
because the boulders were so big that the round or
the even the achy around when it was hitting those boulders,
you know, even no effect. We changed our plants. We
used the ACHI in the air burst role rock check
and fire you air bursts because the while the boulders
were there, but they did not have any air cover, so.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
We sungers did not have any cover on top exactly.

Speaker 5 (15:20):
So we got four rocket launchers and we were firing
air burst. I was there in front of two companies
land up behind. This was in the daytime on the
on the sixteenth of June, I still recall, and so
we fired a couple of air bursts onto the enemy.
But again this was you know uphill like this po
difficult to judge the exact distance. And again this also

(15:41):
did not have any effect.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
Oh it didn't, it didn't, but you also scared and
for the benefit of some of our young viewers. And
air burst is a shell that explodes in the air
and hundreds of shrapnel, red or shrapnel come crashing down slipt.

Speaker 3 (15:56):
They pierce your head or your shoulder. Your head's gone, your.

Speaker 2 (15:58):
Shoulders gone, and they have there have in terrible casualties
because of the air burst.

Speaker 5 (16:02):
Correct, So the air burst is one of the most
feared saying. You know, when you're in the open and
if Pakistani is also firing you know, artillery onto.

Speaker 4 (16:10):
Us, air bursts over our heads.

Speaker 5 (16:13):
And the only thing you know that could say was
that we were keeping our fingers crossed, gave Miro. That's
the only you know, cover that we had actually or
hope that we are that, you know, to prevent casualties.
But anyway, so another incident that I want to sort
of explain here in detail is about the bravery of
our soldiers. You know, when I was standing there, we

(16:33):
were firing these rocket launchers in the air burst role.
Next to me was when we're he was firing a
rocket launcher air burst. He fired one rocket and he
told me, so, I can see the sniper and I'm
going to take it home, take out, take him on
with the next round. And I also, you know, just
glanced from behind the cover and I saw the sniper

(16:54):
the weapon, you know, ready position, and I was talking
to listen, you have just fired from here. Change your position.
While he was telling in number two to load the
next round, the number two standing next to him loading
the round. I'm talking to him to change his position.
He's telling in number two to load the round. The
lound loaded, he stood up right next to me, one

(17:15):
feet away. He stood up and was ready to fire
when the snaper round came right here and he fell
down in front of me, and I saw him dying.
You know, he was breathing and breathing, breathing for the
next five seven minutes. And that scene, you know, I
can never forget in my entire life. And there was

(17:35):
nothing I could do, nothing we could you do to
save him. And then I looked down, you know, we
saw the two companies lined up ready to attack, and
they were looking at me, you know, a big so
you know, within minutes there was another snape around Jagger
Nauth fifty to fifty feet away from me. He got
around and he died there. I had to call out

(17:56):
the attack. You know, this was the lesson I learned
during a attack. You know, when your casualties are happening
and people are seeing, it can really bring your morale
down into your boots. I had to call off the attack.
I went back to Tollding while the company remained there.
I went back to Tolling because we had a better
view from Torolling over the Hump complex onto five and
four zero from there.

Speaker 4 (18:16):
You know again innovation. Uh.

Speaker 5 (18:19):
We had a Milan missile there that so K three
of the guards was there. I told him, listen, that
is the bunker from by the firing coming of the
enemy Rocky Knob area. And he fired the Milan missile.
But the Milan is a little heavier and it went
in the same direction of the bunker. And while I
was hoping that it will go and hit, it just
got grounded because maybe lack of oxygen. It's got a

(18:42):
you know, motor running behind exactly didn't work. Then I
spoke to the commander and I told him this is
the situation we are badly stuck and we're not able
to move.

Speaker 4 (18:53):
And that is the time.

Speaker 5 (18:54):
He did reconnaissance the whole day on the seventeenth, and
then he got one before gun in the.

Speaker 4 (19:01):
Direct firing role.

Speaker 5 (19:02):
Yes, you see, in the direct firing role, the artillery
gun fire like a rifle because you have to have
you know, the line up right exactly. And he got
that gun and he told me listen the area from
where you explained to me where the fire is coming
that era of rocking ob. I've got this gun, and
he put me through to the gun. One single gun,
one single gun.

Speaker 3 (19:21):
I remember that incident exactly.

Speaker 5 (19:23):
So from totaling, I was controlling that gun straight to
the gun position and I told him to fire and
he fired around. This was you know, in the afternoon
of seventeen and he fired around it missed. I gave
him correction sitting on top because I was the closest
and watching with the barnaclar. And after two rounds, the
third round went and hit the rocky Noob. It was
blown to smithereens to see a one hundred and fifty

(19:44):
five m round when it hits a tank, you know,
in the planes, the tank topples. That is the kind
of carting energy you know, it wields, and with the
explosive that bunker was blown to smotherin in daytime, I
immittedly told Basker, who could not see while he would
hear the sound, etcetera. But I could see from throoling
and the complete you know, visual from there, and I

(20:05):
told him.

Speaker 4 (20:05):
There's a time moving attack attack.

Speaker 5 (20:08):
And during daytime, just before last night, Alpha Company went
in killing six Parks soldiers and that is the time
when we had the entire you know, hump complex in
the hands of thirteen jack Raff And the first victory,
you know, is.

Speaker 4 (20:21):
Very very important.

Speaker 5 (20:22):
Absolutely till the time you get your first victory, you know,
the morale of the boys still not up to it,
and that is when they get the confidence that we
can also do it, you know. And then the morale
of the battalion was sky high.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
Absolutely, If I may, I remember this incident and this
is perhaps the first time and it was.

Speaker 3 (20:42):
Just you and Brigadier All.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
There was nobody else there because I remember, not very
far from the draft brigade one single before in direct
firing mode. Brigadier All sitting on the road on a
small parapet with binoculars and directing and speaking to you
on Arty. I was right there, and you know, as
an aside, he got very angry.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
What are you doing here?

Speaker 2 (21:06):
I said, so just watching and I didn't know this
that what was happening on the other side. I had
just seen a Beffore's fire and dirig firing mode for
the first time in my life, like the first time
I've seen one hundred guns firing together as a young reporter.

Speaker 3 (21:19):
And he just said, get out of here. I said, yes, sir,
and I just moved to a safe distance.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
Moved to a safe distance, and the brigade lawinder singing
CRT Commander Arty Brigade. Then he had some officers who
then kind of explained how they're.

Speaker 3 (21:35):
Using before sent direct firing mode.

Speaker 2 (21:36):
So so you know the one fifty five mm how
its actually became your personal weapon during Cargile War. What
happened from that point on? So you got your first victory.

Speaker 5 (21:46):
First, absolutely, yeah, and the morale of the ban was
sky high. So then our next objective, the main one,
was point five. So we built up the rest of
the battalion to the area of the area of Rocking
Op which we had captured. And now when you're sitting
in the area of that rocking hop, you know, a
little forward of the HUM complex when you look ahead

(22:09):
five one four zero, you know is like this, yes,
share climb, share claim absolutely and again you know, the
kind of information that we had was was unclear that
what is the strength of the of the enemy there,
how are they deployed, what are the weapons they have?
Was absolutely missing at that time. So this one seventeenth

(22:30):
on the eighteenth and nineteenth is when we did the
reconnaissance and made up plan for the capture of point
five and four zero eighteenth. I you know, I didn't
want to attack like this frontly. That is the most
you know, dangerous approach to use of a maximum casualties.
So I sent Wikramra the patrol. You know, Alpha company
ha done the job, not turn. We keep rotating the

(22:52):
companies of Delta Company and Brovo Company. So Delta Company
commander of that time was left nant. I sent them
with the patrol, said go to the right flank of
the HUM complexity from where we can circumvent it from
the right, and I sent Leeftnant Jambal. He was an
AC officer less than two years service till lieutenant you know,
attached with us with Broomni commander to go on the

(23:14):
left flank and see from where we can you know,
outflank this and go an attack from.

Speaker 4 (23:19):
The left side.

Speaker 3 (23:20):
Two young lieutenant two young lieutenants what.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
Six months service twenty one years old, Yeah.

Speaker 5 (23:28):
So twenty twenty two years old, but less than two
year service, so they're not even captains. Well, they had
some experience, you know in the counter terrorist operations and
soper et cetera, but in conventional operations that do in
mountains and hlitude. Was was not there those experience That
maturity is what I thought, you know, I was worried
all the time. So anyway, they went for the patrol.

(23:50):
They came back by the evening of the eighteenth and
told me told me, he said, there's no way to supplement.
There's a sheer fall on the other side bimb Nala,
so the only way and from the left side. Jamual
came back, Jeef Jamal and he told me that from
this direction there is a way from where you know,
you can go on the left flank. So based on
that and plus what I had done my reconnaissance. Whole day,

(24:13):
I was sitting with the bnagular looking at five and
four zero top that how much is the enemy? And
we saw some movement happening between two sungers. We could
see two sungers but on the left and on the
right is what we all what we could see at all.
That was the only information available and that the enemy
is there. You could see some movement, you know, carrying
some pacal, sometimes carrying weapons carefully observing from the flanks.

(24:35):
And based on that input, we made a plan, a
simple plan that Delta company and would attack frontly and
capture the right Hunger and Bravo Company under left nd
Jumbal will outfly from the left and capture the left Hunger.
And once they have done that, then we will see
on the ground and played by the ear you know,

(24:56):
depending upon how much the enemy and what other Sungers
etcetera are there left to you know, uh see you
on the ground and react accordingly.

Speaker 3 (25:05):
Got inch by inch by inchury taking territory.

Speaker 4 (25:07):
Absolutely, so there was a plan.

Speaker 5 (25:10):
And then you know, like I said earlier, all the
time while I made the plans, explained to them, they
went and spoke to the boys the respective companies. I
spoke to the boys to Boo the morale and you know,
and tied up the artillery support as well. We made
a firewase from where the mmgs were and the rocket
launchers were, you know, suitably placed from where they could

(25:30):
provide the last minute fire support to keep the enemy's
head down when the final assault went in. And then
I called both these youngsters listen. I want to give
them pep talk, you know, because all the time it
was playing on mind, those in Coco experiencing will they
be to deliver?

Speaker 4 (25:48):
You know.

Speaker 5 (25:48):
But when I speak to them, you know, they raised
my morale in a way that they are so bubbly
and so you know, full of confidence.

Speaker 4 (25:56):
You know.

Speaker 5 (25:58):
It was amazing. So then I asked them and listen
you when you capture your your company achieves you know,
success there on top, you have to give me a
success signal.

Speaker 4 (26:08):
That's a drill, you know.

Speaker 5 (26:09):
We gave an audio success signal on the radio set
to the next hire commander that is me, I was
a ce O, and I give to my brigade commander
and he probably tells the juicy. But on the radio
set we always have a code word. Then we also
have a visual you know, we fire something called a
very light red over red and green ow green something
like that.

Speaker 4 (26:26):
It's all tied up so while we don't have the
very lights.

Speaker 5 (26:29):
But I said, you have to give me a success signal, Jamal,
that tell me brow company. There's more to actually, so
he thought for a while and then he said, case
my company success will be.

Speaker 3 (26:42):
Oh yeah ya yah yeah yeah yeah.

Speaker 4 (26:44):
I said that is very funny. You know what is
the oya business?

Speaker 5 (26:48):
And he said no, no, I'm from Hunters Cotton NDA
and we have the slogan in Hunter's Cotton.

Speaker 4 (26:52):
Oh yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 5 (26:53):
So I let it pass it okay, fine, but ensure
that you give it to me in time and all that.
Then I asked them, okay, what will be your secret
signal at the company once you capture your right shunger.
So we thought for a while and then he said, sir,
my success signal will be they.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
Will maame more, the most iconic line that you know.
I get goosebumps even today when.

Speaker 4 (27:15):
I absolutely absolutely so.

Speaker 5 (27:16):
That time, I found it very funny, and I told them,
no bullshit, this is you know, not happening. So no, no, sir,
I will capture that bunker. I will for some more
bunkers to capture and all that, and you know, there
were other things playing upon my mind as a take.
So you give me this success signal, they'll make you
more or whatever you're saying, and then we'll see. But
I didn't realize that time that there's going to be
you know, like you're saying, goose bumps, there will be

(27:38):
movies made on this in the future and it will
become a household kind of slogan. At that time, even
now people talk about.

Speaker 3 (27:44):
This was the headline of my India Today story. Yeahl
Man game.

Speaker 5 (27:47):
More absolutely so, all that happened. And so nineteenth night
we went in for the attack at last light. Now
you talk about one hundred guns, we had hundred and
twenty guns, wow, twenty one fire units, six guns each
in each fire unit. And then we also had two
guns in direct firing role, you know, one firing on

(28:09):
the left Hunger, one on the right Hunger. So before
last night, we have something called the preparatory bombardment which
started and the whole feature was red the amount of
explosive you know, which was being pumped right in front.

Speaker 4 (28:19):
Hundred guns, twenty guns firing, you can imagine, and.

Speaker 5 (28:22):
Sitting at the base, I could you know, visualize Dushman and.

Speaker 4 (28:28):
We'll be able to you know, easily move up.

Speaker 5 (28:31):
And but to my surprise, you know, when the artie
lifted and the troop started moving, two things. One is
that acret fire were coming mmg from the top and
they were using the illumination very very effectively artly illumination
to direct our movement. And why this happened is because
they had made reverse slow positions on the flanks. So

(28:52):
when artillery started, they went behind and in the mountains,
you know, the arterly round is either hitting in the
front or some calling on the top, but the moment
it crosses the crest, it goes to the valley behind.
So the positions which are behind, you know, people are safe.
So they had also planned very intelligently. And the woman
the artie lifted, they came and occupied those features and

(29:12):
they were firing at us. And whenever they used to
fire the elimination round on top detect our movement as
p drill, you know, everybody was freezing. You freeze, you
stop movement because then he's not able to detect. You know,
the elimination round shakes and if you're frozen, you know,
it appears like a stone or a boulder or something,
and so they were not able to detect our movement,

(29:32):
but they knew we were coming because you know that
time on the radio set, we have something called uh,
you know, equipment which is to scramble what we are talking,
you know, secrecy device is what we call it.

Speaker 4 (29:45):
There was the name. I don't talk about it.

Speaker 5 (29:47):
But that also needed batteries and we were now four
five days there. Batteries were dead. There were nothing to
recharge the batteries. So we were talking in the clear
clear meaning in the open, and anybody on that frequency
could monitor com unication.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
Nineteen ninety nine, we didn't have encrypted conversations, know we
had that, but at level.

Speaker 4 (30:05):
To that, Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 5 (30:07):
So I was speaking to his court name of Shisha
and Jambal was uh and uh you know that conversions happening.

Speaker 3 (30:17):
Yours was if I remember correctly.

Speaker 4 (30:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (30:22):
So, so the person sitting on top of the Pakistani
they also had a n p RC radio set exactly
like ours. The only thing is that it says park
Ordnance Factory and asked his Ordnance factory kit key, and
there was only difference.

Speaker 4 (30:34):
So he was able to monitor a communication.

Speaker 3 (30:36):
And you were able to monitor his No.

Speaker 4 (30:38):
He was talking online. They had lead line.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
They had laid lines.

Speaker 4 (30:41):
Yea.

Speaker 5 (30:42):
So they had laid lines. We couldn't monitor their communication.
They were monitoring ours. The moment asked their batteries. That
the Kuban batteries went dead. And so then he came
on the radio set tried you know, psychological warfare, and
he came on the net and he says Usha to
Muptogeny and and you know, Galiga Watch and all that
game don't come up, is what he was trying to play.

(31:05):
But immediately responded and you know, abused them, and he
told them just wait for a few hours more. You know,
we we are reaching there and we'll see couper corn
corney at that kind of thing and all that. So
so that little incident also happened while we were assaulting
five and four zero. So since brow company was on

(31:27):
a little gradual slope on the flank, they reached first
around two to thirty, Jamal and his company reached on
top and they captured the area of Left Hunger following
the complete drill, you know, firing the rocket launcher, lobbying grenades,
and firing the close support weapons in the close proximity
and they captured the area and three thirty five in
the morning he gave me the success signal on the
radio set. Oh yeah, yeah, and everybody heard it. Yeah,

(31:51):
it was a big barral booster and you'd be surprised,
you know, while we were in war. But in the
fire base where the other two companies were there, Alpha
and Charlie Company BASCAR was not very far from me,
you know, was away and I was continuously monitoring, you know,
with the radio set on my ear. You know, it
was not my radio set was never with my operator
that he will come and tell me and then you know,

(32:14):
appociation on the thing. I had my radio set with
me all the time, continuously monitoring. You know, you have
to be on top of the situation to react immediately.
ABS and so there was a lot of cheering and
all that happened, and then came on the radio set.

Speaker 4 (32:29):
You know, he was a little worried now you know
that little child and uh which.

Speaker 5 (32:37):
Yeah, you met him after the attack and then he
said can Then he said, were about to reach, just
wait and I also do my part and all that,
so it takes a little more time. And he reached,
he cleared his hunger. And when he cleared that area
his company, you know, then on the right flank they
saw there were five more sung guards which somewhere the

(33:00):
you know cover as well, and that took some time
to clear. So on the last time, then he came
out the new said, having cleared that, and actually happened,
you know, I'll look for some more bunkers to capture.
And it happened like that. You know, sometimes what you
say just happens. And then he gave me the succes signalmore.

Speaker 3 (33:19):
I have goose bumps, and I'm listening to this story.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
I've heard the story from you, I've heard the story
from him, I've heard the story from from so many
braves of thirteen Jakrab. But each time this story gives
you goose bumps because that valor was truly mission impossible.
So that was truly mission impossible. It was impossible to
climb and capture those bunkers when the Pakistanis were firing
down and at times just throwing boulders and rocks down

(33:44):
at a climbing soldiers.

Speaker 3 (33:46):
And they were very well struck, very well armed. They
had a lot of ammunition.

Speaker 5 (33:50):
So we captured, you know, from the aiero Rocky Knob
twelve point seven mmkpbt, you know, which is a trapod
and we had to bring it down using mules after
we capture that. The kind of people they had laid lines,
you know, in the entire area we captured, you know,
Badam kishmish Nor Soup, and they were very well sort
of equipped and lost wife sustained.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
They had laid Pakistaniami World earries and their salary.

Speaker 4 (34:17):
Books absolutely paid pooks everything we captured from there, so
they were there to stay.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
But this del Mangemor rarely boosted the morale of the nation,
I mean not just your soldiers. Absolutely, And then you
came down after five one four zero was captured.

Speaker 3 (34:34):
That was a big victory.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
I think then twenty eighth of June three Pimple and
then that Tiger Hill, and you had a bigger task.
But I would have come down for a lighter moment,
for just a moment. When you came down, the entire
nation knew your name, Wikamatra's name, left Jamwal's name, Baskar's name,
and you you were, you know, the army chief himself,

(34:59):
you your uniform and your full kernel's ranks.

Speaker 4 (35:02):
He put it for you. Yeah, so you know, thanks
to the media.

Speaker 2 (35:06):
Actually no, it's actually thanks to your hard Workssary privileged.

Speaker 3 (35:10):
No, that we were all there to be able to
see it.

Speaker 4 (35:12):
Absolutely. So you know when we came down and then
we had you know at the base, we had the
interaction with the media.

Speaker 5 (35:18):
You were there and uh yeah was there that time
with Star TV and then she took an interview and
uh rick myself and the other officers and that is when.

Speaker 4 (35:31):
You know, the whole nation came to know what the
Indian Army doing on the board of the article that
you wrote.

Speaker 5 (35:37):
And of course I have some photographs of you with
thirteen Jacraft you know, I'll sort of put them across later.
And so what happened then was that we usould get
letters from the whole nation. Yes, I to get thousands
and thousands of letters, you know, which is to reach
and I as to read and I has to put
these some of them, you know, display them noticeable the

(35:58):
boys to read from all of life, you know, doctor, businessmen,
you school children and principles that you know Del Mangemore
and thirteen Jackreer brave when you know doing out tuning
job and we are with you. It was a big
moral booster for the battalion, for the troops that the
whole nation is with us, the whole nation knows what
we're doing.

Speaker 4 (36:15):
That recognition, you know, is a was a big, big
morale booster.

Speaker 3 (36:19):
But this wasn't the end of operations.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
You were still needed in battle and perhaps the toughest
assignment I mean you had tougher assignments subsequently, but the
toughest assignment was still to come for you.

Speaker 5 (36:32):
Yes, so, uh, you know, we after we deducted from
five and four zero, General mun told me that, okay,
ten days rest and refit and go back to Gumri
and relax and take stalk off you know, casualties.

Speaker 4 (36:45):
And weapons, the couran losses and etcetera.

Speaker 5 (36:47):
But the very next day, you know, we we've got
a task that probably will be going with nine persif
behind Tiger Hill. And while we were doing the reconnaissance,
the task got changed to Tiger Hill. That thirteen jacrible
long the attack on Tiger Hill. We sent our you know,
comany commanders for reconnaissance. But then you were called back
that no, you know, thirteen chacter of a low part
of seventy nine Mountain Brigade go for the capture of

(37:10):
point recapture of Point for It, which was very very
strongly held.

Speaker 2 (37:15):
Yeah, Tiger Hill, I think then went to eight six
and eighteen grenadiers, and I mean they did a great
job fourth of July capturing it. And again I think
it's an honor that I had, you know, a bird's
eye view in terms of interacting with Colonel Taker and
eighth Sick officers to see their operations. But now, you know,
for the moment, I want to come to your tasking.

(37:37):
You're tasking now four eight seventy five.

Speaker 3 (37:40):
This as some one of the.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
Generals, if I remember correctly, was telling me the toughest,
one of the toughest.

Speaker 3 (37:47):
Peaks to capture, the bloodiest battle, the bloodiest battle and
two parameter chakras it God, But tell us about.

Speaker 5 (37:54):
That Point for seventy five was a very very dominating feature,
you know. And again and I'll put across the photographs
which we took later when we did the bike ride
and you me and the Coco understanding with fourteage seventy
five in the background, which very clearly gave the domination
of Point for It seveny five, you know, butt thirty
kilometers on either side towards Guomri and towards Dras. So

(38:15):
a person sitting there, you know, in fact their artillery officer,
the captain in theas was sitting there with the periscope.

Speaker 4 (38:21):
You know.

Speaker 5 (38:22):
Thirty time magnification can dominate by observation and by fire.
Put about fifty to sixty kilometers of the national Avia Alba.
And the importance of point four A seventy five was
rise by the enemy also because they held it very
very strongly and in the entire brigade attack of seventy
nine brigade they were about sixty plus Pakistanis killed. Seventy

(38:42):
three weapons were recovered from the entire you know fourage seventy.

Speaker 3 (38:46):
Five whale back, wail backwards and pimple and.

Speaker 5 (38:50):
Twin bumps, the entire complex of Forage seven five where
seventeen Brigade went in. So as part of seventy nine
hundred brigade attack, thirteen Jakra was tasked to capture Forage
seven five top seventeen yard, to capture the whaleback and
pimple complex which were on the left side of fore
seven five, and in phase two two Naga was to

(39:11):
capture the area of Twin Bumps, which was on the
right side of Forge and five towards the Tiger Hill
and the attack was to go in on the fourth
of July. So from first of July onwards we inducted
again back into the Moscow Valley from Guomrie and we
built up our logistics, you know, because then mountains before
attack had launched at that altitude, you know, you have

(39:34):
to build up your logistics to a firebase from where
the attack will be finally launched, where you have to
build up you know, your heavy weapons, your ammunition, your ration,
you know, and which takes time. And we had to
do this with using fighting porters two companies which were
not to go in for assault initially. This time Charlie
Company and not Charlie Brower Company was doing the fighting photos.

(39:57):
Along with that, we had twenty eight rur Do companies
with us to do fighting portals and build up the logistics.
So I along with Basker, you know, we went up
right to the fire base where seventeen chart was in
contact and did the reconnaissance of that area. The whole
day we observed and we made up plans based on
what we saw, and there was from fourage and five

(40:19):
was Spur coming down and there was Nala to the left.
So and then we again we saw that movement on
top two three hungars on top for seventy five what
we could see from the side, and some movement of
the Pakistani.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
Almost seventeen thousand feet altitude.

Speaker 5 (40:32):
For it's went five is the altitude actually yeah, so
yeah in two three point three exactly, so yeah, roughly
roughly that much. And the terrain here was a little
more different. You see, in the area of Hump complex,
I mentioned all boulders then steve gradient as far as
five and four is concerned. Here the terrain was steep,

(40:55):
much more steeper, and it was slippery, that's slaty kind
of you know, texture was there and where when you're
walking up you know you were slipping a lot.

Speaker 3 (41:04):
So again not a blade of grass, not a blade.

Speaker 5 (41:06):
Of grass, that is the entire dark. So the terrain
here was you know, much more difficult. And having done
the reconnaissance and we made the plan. Basker and me,
you know, he was my no I see, I see.
Plus Cina was company comander, and I as to always
confer with them and you know, bounce plans off him.
So we made a plan that this time it will

(41:28):
be now Alpha Company and Charlie Company. She will go
in for the attack, because again rotating Alpha was the
first one and everybody else had done once. So Alpha
company to you know, skirt right and capture the area
on the right side of four seventy five, and Charlie
Company was to go straight along the Nala and capture
the area of something called flat top which we could

(41:49):
see little flatage feature. We just give names like that.
And then both the company out to link up. And
then the reserve company, which was Delta Company this time,
was to be you know, exploit beyond four it seven
five top. So having made the broad plan, I came
down back and then we went to the brigade off room.
German was there, brief Dame in detail, and we coordinated

(42:11):
the plans, coordinated the artillery again we had guns and
terrify a role twenty one five units. Everything went back
and on the fourth of July is when we launched
the attack. Now you know where the companies we call
it a release point in the planes where we launched
attack from where the batinal launched the attacks called the
forming up place or fup. But in mountains, you know,

(42:33):
because you can't spread out in that manner. So in
the release point, Alpha Company and Charlie Company were there
a little separate. We tran not to bunch up, but
it so happened that three utterly rounds you know, came
and fell right in the center of Alpha Company, and
three four of his boys got badly injured, just when
we were about to launch the attack, which is very,
very demoralizing. But then you know, Basker, being a Sceeni

(42:54):
Company mountainment, took stock of the situation and we you know,
launch the attack, and so the companies went in. But
this time what happened is by the time we were
reaching the top, because of the slow movement, we got daylighted.
So fifth of July now early morning, and the troops,

(43:14):
both Alpha and Charlie Company are in close contact of
the enemy and his daylight, and we have not reached
the top. It is a disastrous kind of situation because
now the enemy is very close to you. He's sitting
on top, he can see you inning Pikachu's and they
were suffering casualties.

Speaker 4 (43:30):
Good breath.

Speaker 5 (43:31):
The Charlie Company commander, his reduce had got damaged, you know,
probably got artist shrapnel or something. But then he took
his radio, his artillery forward observation of server moving on.
We took a radio set and then he spoke to me.
I was in the fireways from the fireways, looking up again,
you know, for it seven five, and I could see
Charlie Company and Alpha Company all daylight, daylighted, and the

(43:53):
enemy firing from top. And he spoke to me and said,
that bunker that you explained to us, you know when
you made the plans, is from where the accurate fire
is coming.

Speaker 4 (44:02):
We have do something.

Speaker 5 (44:03):
And uh, you know, quick thinking sitting there, I couldn't
have got a direct firing art. We couldn't have fired
in any case. Otherwise would have support heavy gualties troops
over in very close even art and direct firing role.
I could not have tried that because.

Speaker 3 (44:18):
You know, had it gone just a little hey O
own people, own people.

Speaker 5 (44:22):
So I was, you know, desperately thinking what to do
when I saw in the fireways. You know, we Faget
missile launcher this time, and earlier we had a Milan missile.
So Koschel I still remember, I had a captain with
our major and I told him bunker immediately fire faggot.

(44:44):
So when he looked through the telescope, he loaded the
missile number two. He loaded and he looked through telescope.
He saw that bunker and he saw you know, our
own own own boys milling around, and he looked at me.
You know, I was just standing behind him.

Speaker 4 (44:59):
Side.

Speaker 5 (45:00):
There was no time, you know, it was trime critical
and he was firing. I was coming and had my
lady behind the launcher. I'm an instructor in the fact
I launched in the infantry school, having taught missiles and
fired missile myself.

Speaker 3 (45:15):
You know I've seen that missile.

Speaker 4 (45:17):
Yeah, so there's no time to lose when and my
later missile, this missile went up like this straight and
hit that bunker. Wow, straight where we should have hit.

Speaker 3 (45:33):
Altitude.

Speaker 4 (45:36):
A little anecdote here.

Speaker 5 (45:37):
When I was firing the missile in the infantry school
in Besha Field firing rangers, my instructor was on Captain
A low Cocker Gourcas. He had done the course in
Russia and he was my instructor. I was senior to him.
I am senior to him, but there he was my instructor.
And he told me, sir, you know, the target is
like this. He said, you aim left top corner and

(45:59):
uh and fire if the jerk the launcher will come
like this and hit right in the center.

Speaker 4 (46:04):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (46:04):
So momentarily when I was lying at four in seventy five,
that thing came to me because there it was a
direct hit right in the center of the target. And
I aimed exactly you know question center like the left
top top HP and a bunker and we're a fire.

Speaker 4 (46:18):
Yeah, it hit right in the bunker.

Speaker 3 (46:20):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (46:21):
You know, I always recall this, and remember a low occurred,
and now we did not know what has happened. We
heard the explosion. I could not see because we again
looking like this, you know in a mountain, neither could.

Speaker 3 (46:34):
There.

Speaker 5 (46:35):
So seventeen charter which is going the wheelback lower. They
saw a lot of people running and all that behind.
And then they were also monitoring our radio communication. And
I came to know the brigade come on and told
me made a curl that there has been some hard cut,
some casualty, some flutter there, fire another missile. So I
fired another missile, same you went and hit straight there

(46:57):
and again we got the same feedback. And that is
the time I too good and all the time not
a daylight, you know, rockin up daylight. This again day
two daylight attacks and in those conditions and at all
good peet, so goodbye. Themmune rolls through the Ramish who
was the leading platoon commander, and Raish had further ahead,
the two in the section you know, nothin there and Sanjay,

(47:21):
so he sort of indicated to them and Sanjay and
there both these guys. Then Sanja was the guy who
jumped in pulled out that machine gun and he got
shot up in the bar again, but he took that weapon,
fired and cleared that entire area in daytime on the
on the fifth of July, and this action, you know,
earned him his.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
M getting goosebumps. And he was again a very young
kid that time. I went very young so and with
his bare hands he pulled out the machine gun.

Speaker 5 (47:52):
And then Charlie Comly went up and we had that area,
and then Alfacam linked up and in daytime on the
fifth of July, we were on top. But when the
two companies linked up and we reached the top, we
saw that, you know, we still did not have the
complete four age seventy five with us. From the top,

(48:13):
there was a small narrow ledge which was leading ahead,
and there was a precipice on both sides of that ledge,
and you know, fifteen twenty meters and on the other
side of a ledge there was a narrow you know,
we cut where the Pakistani was sitting with a machine
gun and a sniper and there was no way we
could have moved during day there.

Speaker 4 (48:32):
And I mean it was a very very.

Speaker 5 (48:34):
Narrow approach and the frontal straight away fifteen twenty meters,
you know, and we got struck there and we could
not progress operations there.

Speaker 4 (48:44):
And so this was fifth of July. So I also
moved up.

Speaker 5 (48:48):
You know, from the firebase, climbed up from behind and
with the Alpha company fifty meters behind where they contact
was there. So fifth of July I reached up sick
next complete day fifth and sixth we were in close contact.
When I'm saying fifteen twenty meters, we could not talk
to each other. So there were a lot of abuses

(49:09):
that were going on from both sides. They were throwing
grenades at us and our boys. You know, you can
imagine the raw courage of the soldier of the Indian Army.
They were catching those grenades, sometimes picking up the grenades
and throwing it back at them. Why, because the grenade
has a four second fuse. It takes four seconds peka

(49:30):
we lever niklas, and when it hits the detonator, it
takes four second to burst the venue in close proximity.
If I throw it, you know, four seconds looking a
But if you're brave enough to pick it, I and
throw it back within those four seconds air burst. We
have to air busa But it requires courage to pick
up a grenade doesn't have a liver which is in

(49:51):
the process of exploding. You know what the Pakistani should
have done, if they had the courage, is to, you know,
let the liver go count count too in your hand
and then throw.

Speaker 4 (50:05):
Which which they were not doing, you know. So so
so that happened, and.

Speaker 5 (50:11):
This is the place also where to I'm you know,
this actually happened while it was portrayed in both the movies.

Speaker 3 (50:22):
I wrote about it also in my book dateline.

Speaker 5 (50:28):
Correct and so so that also happened. But the bottom
line is that we were badly struck and there were
a lot of pressure. You know, why haven't you given
success signal as yet? My brigade comander telling me and
I said, I, you know, we are not able to proceed.
This is where we are struck. The seventh of July,
early morning, Captain Leween and Abiru was in the frontmost

(50:50):
you know, contact point behind that boulder where you know,
all this was happening. And then the Pakistani is through
fired RG order grenade. I'm not sure, but it fell
in close proximity of Neveen and his leg was badly shattered,
badly shattered, and he had to be evacuated. So now
the Delta Company, which is the reserve company, second in command,

(51:12):
you know, because I had only fetched up as the
company commander, so he took up atrol to evacuate Noveen,
along with ragunat the JCO who also wa Chakra and
a small patrol. He went ahead and he evacuated Noveen
and Aberu. And and that is the time again you
know the uh you know, the kind of person. He

(51:35):
was always a lot of initiative, and you're thinking, I
had wanted to do something, I just visualized. Now that
probably what went on in his mind that you know,
two days the Battani struck here and he was now
at the frontmost point and he could see the enemy
and he on an impulse, you know, just charged.

Speaker 4 (51:53):
He told a gun wait and uh, let me see
what I can do. And with his AKA firing, he
just charged.

Speaker 5 (52:04):
And when he charged, you know, the enemy which was there,
he killed a couple of them, but in the bargain,
you know, this was in the open. He knew what
he was doing, and the enemy fired. He got around here,
he fell down and he laid down his life, you know,
for the nation, for the battalion to you know, capture
that point for it seven five and the moment that

(52:26):
words spread, you know, Ragunath and behind Charlie company until
the company, you know, the troops were obviously uncontrollable, and
we immediately launched on a sport in broad daylight, and
we captured the entire He gave us that foothold. He
laid down this life, but he gave us that foothold
to you know, immediately move ahead and capture that point
for it. Seven five, seventh of July, early morning. I

(52:49):
was sitting about, you know, fifty meters behind when when
I got this information, and it was you know, no words,
you know, shattering information about what a brave soldier he was,
you know, so much initiative and so now for it
known as it is known as recognizing his sacrifice.

Speaker 2 (53:13):
And he was so full of life in Captain and
so in awe of you, so much in awe of
you because you were leading from the front.

Speaker 3 (53:23):
He was learning so well.

Speaker 2 (53:25):
And so when when somebody says that he got a perameter,
because you know of media, you know, I mean you
saw that valor firs hand.

Speaker 3 (53:36):
You saw that bravery firsthand. Hurts.

Speaker 5 (53:39):
It definitely hurts. And I had tweeted that time that
you know, nobody can sort of take away that bravery
from him.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
Because that is bravery that is that will inspire generations
of soldiers, and it does inspire generations of soldiers. I
met somebody who told me that, you know, when when
we'd written about this value, that it inspired them to
do something for the nation.

Speaker 3 (54:03):
But Cargil was just one part. I mean, we won
the Cargile.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
War, but you had a lot in store for you subsequently,
in terms of after Cargil, you went to China as
a defense attached am I right? And you speak the Chinese,
the Mandarin language.

Speaker 5 (54:21):
Go to China, they do to a language course and
then they are deployed as a defens in Beijing. So
after the Cargo War was over, you know, we we
deducted back in the army headquarters. Probably somebody realized that,
you know, is not too good a place for a

(54:42):
two PVC battalion, so it was changed to Lucknow and
so we deducted now to Lucknow and we were there
for what a year, But then we got deployed form
so you know, let me tell you. You know, we
were ready to go to war, part of one of
the offensive formations. And that is the time, you know,

(55:05):
I want to talk about a boy, is the kind
of troops that we have that now I was a
full pledget commanding also that time I was off hitting
during Cargio War.

Speaker 4 (55:12):
The boys would come up to me.

Speaker 5 (55:14):
We are Charlie Company eighty attackla you Gomari company jig.
You know, we want to go and earn our gallantry exactly.
So so so that is the kind of they've come
to my, you know, little bunker. We were deploying the
deserts and the jaman will walk up to me because
you know, I am always thirteen Jacky in the sense

(55:35):
that I was commissioned and I all my services in
thirteen jack. I never went to any other battalion, so
I have that very close wrappo with all the boys.
You know, I was adjutant for a very long time
in the battalion, and I made a point thanks to
my commanding officer. My first YO was very very strict
that you know, you should call the boys by.

Speaker 3 (55:54):
Name, every soldier by name, So what eighty persons of.

Speaker 5 (55:57):
The boys because groups change. Also, I knew them by name,
and the boys also knew me. That team which we
talk about, you know, the trust factor in the team
is very very important in war or in any adverse situation.
The you know, I knew which boy will deliver where
and where to whom to put a wear and and
they also had trust in me, you know, having seen

(56:19):
me throughout in the battalion.

Speaker 4 (56:21):
So so that makes a lot of difference. So I
was very approachable. So they would walk up to me.

Speaker 5 (56:25):
During paragram, you know, all the company commanders and there,
you know, Jahan and Ahada come to me someone my company.

Speaker 3 (56:31):
I ultimate, you know, especially after kalk massacre. Uh you're
already yeah, And I want every generation to know that.

Speaker 2 (56:44):
Even after attacking the Indian parliament, so Pakistani terrorists they
attacked the Indian Parliament. Before that, Pakistani terrorists had hijacked
IC eight one four. This was after they had lost
in Cargil War. Sadly, India recognized Perf as a military
dictator and president and then gave him a Try Services
Guard of Honor when he came to India as president.

(57:04):
And then in two thousand and two, they attacked a
military station in Kaluchuk and massacred army families from a
six month old child to a pregnant woman to soldiers.
Pakistani terrorists massacred them. Both Indian Army and Pakistan Army
were lined up on either side of the border, and

(57:24):
yet the balloon did not go up.

Speaker 3 (57:26):
Yet the war did not.

Speaker 2 (57:26):
Happen because the Pakistanis would float that nuclear bogie, which
finally in twenty nineteen was busted. And that was the
time again he was in Jamoan, Kashmir and twenty twenty onwards.

Speaker 3 (57:38):
We'll talk about that in just a moment, but your appreciation.

Speaker 2 (57:41):
Should we have gone across and hit them after the
Kaluchak massacre?

Speaker 4 (57:46):
Yeah, I was winning a battalion that time. I think
we should have.

Speaker 5 (57:49):
But I'm sure that there are bigger things that play
that time wherein the desion was taken not having been
deployed for almost a year that we did not go
to war.

Speaker 2 (57:59):
So then your life took a little turn from you know,
fighting the Pakistanis.

Speaker 3 (58:05):
You were then sent to China as a defense attashe.

Speaker 4 (58:09):
So after having.

Speaker 5 (58:10):
Complete two years of command battalion, I got picked up.
You know, we have a very rigorous selection procedure to
go as a defense attashe to Beijing and I did
my two language course and then I was deployed in
Beijing from two thousand and five to two thousand and eight.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
And that was the time the relationship was also undergoing
a very positive yea.

Speaker 5 (58:28):
So those were good times with the India China relations
and uh, you know, lots was happening, mill to mill
exchange was taking place, a lot of visits were happening
on either side. You know, their air chief Chia ching Chin,
whichited India. I accompanied him and we took him, you
know all over building military and air force institutions and

(58:48):
training centers, Etceterasing Our army chief that time visited China
and it was an excellent visit. Promokogiar Defense Minister at
that time visited China and and we signed a membrand
understanding of you know, military cooperation between both the countries.
As a result of that, you know, we had the

(59:09):
first hand in hand military MILT exercise after into Ming.
So that was you know, a big event that took
place and really warming up of relations that was happening
in that period two five ton eight. I got to
travel all over China. You know, I've been to Larsa,
I travel in that Chichinghai Tibet railway which is againner

(59:30):
state of the art train, and uh Prime mister then
Primming that time visited in twenty thirteen.

Speaker 4 (59:39):
Yeah, no, earlier before that when the thirteen also visited,
and so those were the.

Speaker 5 (59:46):
Good times and relations were were warming up, and then
to eight Olympics happened.

Speaker 4 (59:52):
Yes, I was there at that time. We saw totally
different China, you know, and.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
Uh so so in fact, when Ehmad was the External
Face Minister, he had also visited uh China, and I
had accompanied you know, that visit. And when doctor man
Mohnsing visited in twenty thirteen when BDCA was signed, so
I had a company doctor MANNSI I was reporting on
that assignment also, So we thought that relationship.

Speaker 3 (01:00:19):
With China was really really improving and lots was happening.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
And the current external Face Minister was then our ambassador
in in China two thousand and eight nine, if I
remember twenty thirteen, twenty thirteen, he.

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
Was an ambassador in China when BDCA was being signed.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
But so what happened, Like, okay, so when you came
back from from China, you were you commanded your brigade
in in Tangsei in eastern Ladakh, and you commanded the
division in in ladakhes so China era friendship oria chumar
or depsang or dem chop incursions.

Speaker 3 (01:00:56):
What was the thinking that time of the Chinese and
of our establishishment.

Speaker 4 (01:01:00):
Then, yeah, you know, it's quite surprising that they did that.

Speaker 5 (01:01:03):
You know, we have signed so many agreements with them,
which started, you know in nineteen eighty eight. Actually post
it wherein we decided that we'll keep the boundary issue
on one side, post some the wrong chew yes, post
some the wrong show seven and uh, and continue with
the rest of the relations, hoping that you know, when
our relations, economic relations, trade relations are much much better,

(01:01:27):
then probably we'll find an answer to the boundary question
as well, which is very very complex. And then we
signed these agreements in nineteen ninety three Border Piece and
Tranquility Agreement, in ninety six Confidence Building Measures, two thousand
and five Protocols, and of course you talked about the
BDCA and using these agreements, you know, we maintained shitter
score and peace and tranquility on the borders.

Speaker 4 (01:01:49):
For good about three decades, which was you know, which
was what.

Speaker 5 (01:01:54):
The agreement talked about to maintain we sent tranquility and
continue with the rest of the relations. But then post
T thirteen onwards, you know, China got assertive on the
borders where in the try to they're trying to control
areas which they claim. You see, we have a boundary
question which is very very complex. Then we have the
LC line of actual control, which was defined as you know,

(01:02:15):
the area the line till where both sides physically exercise control.
But the issue is that and all the agreements talk
about the LC maintaining peace and tranquility LC, but the
l C is also not mutually agreed.

Speaker 3 (01:02:28):
Where is the LC is not demarketed.

Speaker 5 (01:02:30):
Yes, so there are areas where the LC what the
Chinese perception is and what our perception is coincides. There
are certain areas where it does not coincide. So there
we have these areas of differing perception, you know, their
perception and our perception, so which we don't you know,
agree to We have our LC actually, so they have

(01:02:51):
been you know, over a period of time trying to
control the area which they claim, but they have no control.
So physically, you know, move to those areas and more
of using you know, gray zone tactics looking at our reaction.
You know, if you don't respond, then they'll continue to
sit there. You know, one day some track comes up,
then it becomes the road, then it becomes you know,

(01:03:11):
one small huartman comes up. Then you know they keep
building up on it, testing your read lines. So in
this gray zone warfare, I always say that as an adversary,
you know, we have to draw our head lines. Otherwise
he'll keep pushing you till you know we're keeping it,
you know, under the threshold, below the threshold. But the

(01:03:32):
threshold as to be decided us.

Speaker 3 (01:03:34):
We have to decide.

Speaker 4 (01:03:35):
We decide, you know, if otherwise he'll keep coming.

Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
And that threshold you decided as Army commander in twenty twenty, correct,
before that, it was like.

Speaker 4 (01:03:43):
No, so at all places.

Speaker 5 (01:03:44):
When that sung happened or humor happened, we reacted, you know,
we reacted and then we you know, pushed him back.

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
So what happened in twenty twenty, So.

Speaker 5 (01:03:54):
Twenty twenty, you know, we were aware the Chinese every
year they mobilize their forces and come into on the
Western Highway, you know, of the Debo. There's the area
called Khansivahi then Saidullah, and they do the exercises you
know from sin Jiang, these three four divisions of mobilized.

(01:04:15):
They come into the area to excise and go back,
which is a regular feature. And in twenty twenty also
we were aware that they are there in that area
and they're carrying out the exercise and all that. But
that they're going to you know, build up the forces
close to the l s and try and occupy these
areas which they're wanting to control was actually a surprise.

Speaker 3 (01:04:34):
They wanted to control. They did not want to I mean,
they wanted to physically dominate.

Speaker 5 (01:04:38):
Correct up to their claim lank correct correct. So that
they're going to do this was something which which was
a surprise to us.

Speaker 3 (01:04:45):
But you were there that time.

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
If if I remember correctly, you were on a helicopter
and you saw a Chinese helicopter.

Speaker 4 (01:04:52):
So it all started on the fifth of May.

Speaker 5 (01:04:54):
Actually, as Ami commander, I was visiting a DVO and
on the way back, coming along a shoke, we came
to the area of Galvan and I, you know, just
turned my helicopter into the area of Galvan and right
across I saw a Pla helicopter which appeared to have
transgressed on our side of the l C and h
then the moment he saw as he turned back, when

(01:05:16):
he turned back, you know, I told my pilot and
let's go ahead and see what's happened. And he turned
back and then he landed in a you know, unprepared surface.
It was quite surprising. And then we came back. Well
by time, you know, we moved back and I landed
in La we were having a face off that was
happening in the area of Galvan. We had troops in
the area, so exactly on the LAC there was a

(01:05:37):
face off. But what was also unusual was in the
strength that they're brought in in that face off on
the fifth of May, and the way they were equipped.
You know, they were carrying the right gear and those
shields and you know the sticks and all that which
appeared very very unusual. So what we did that next
day morning, you know, I we flew u avis to

(01:05:57):
see what is happening behind and then we saw that,
you know, they were mobilized close to the l S
a large amount of forces coming along the Galwan. And
when we see that road which comes to Galvan along
the Galvan River, it comes along Soksalos aalient where we
have a twol point fifteen seventeen, et cetera. So our
assusment was that in case he's with here with so

(01:06:18):
much trend, then he'll come to those points as well.
So we immediately inducted some reserve forces which were there
with us into the area of Sosilian and sure and
now on the seventeenth of May, you know, they came
into these areas towards these areas as well. And again
here also we gave them face off on the on
the LC itself.

Speaker 3 (01:06:35):
But while he was coming in, you were already there.

Speaker 5 (01:06:37):
We were there, and we gave them a face off
stop them in that area on the l C. It
was on the eighteenth of May actually when you know,
on the north Wang of Pegogsu. When they came, you know,
were hundreds of vehicles. They have a road which comes
up private to Finger four which is our claim line,
which correction, which is the Chinese the Chinese claim and

(01:06:59):
we claimed Finger eight on the north bank, so across
fing Finger eight from the south bank. You know, Earlimoney
got a report and we immediately you know, went across
and gave them a face off. But the troops which
were there with us at that time, we were not
adequate to you know, push them back, to push them back.
So here, for the first time, a huge scuffle happened

(01:07:20):
on the north bank where you know there was no
stone pelting and fisticuffs and our officers got thrown into
the Pengosol lake and uh and you know, the way
the nuance I want to explain there is that the
plof are out, so you know, while there were troops
which had come from outside, but there were some troops

(01:07:41):
with whom you know, we had familiarity with whom we
used to sort of talk on a daily basis. So
so all that was happening there. But again, you know,
here was the first time and we were clear that
you know, what the intent of the PLA is. It's
not a normal faceoff that has been happening in all
these areas over period of time. He's coming with a
large strength and uh, you know his intent is something

(01:08:05):
totally totally different. And they came in and occupied the
area of inger Fo and and and stayed there. So
during this time is when you know, when we realized
what the PLA is up to. Is when we inducted
additional forces into Ladak from the Western front as well,
initially within Northern Command, and then we moved in you know,

(01:08:26):
reserve forces from from the mainland, the army reserves, and.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
And that kind of shows us strength, the speed with
which you were able to induct not just your reserves
but also additional forces that army force coordination absolutely so
did that surprised him.

Speaker 4 (01:08:44):
It would have surprised him.

Speaker 5 (01:08:45):
It would have definitely surprised him, because we inducted a
large amount of force along.

Speaker 4 (01:08:50):
Both the social axis.

Speaker 5 (01:08:51):
The Roman acces was full continuously bumped vehicles, inducting you know,
additional troops, artillery, ammunition, logistics, billeting and uh. And also
you know we were inducting armor and mech using the
C seventeen's they're all being flown into Lay. So while

(01:09:12):
getting to Lay was one aspect, but from Lay, you know,
moving over frontage of eight andlometers from Lay, what was
a huge challenge to maintain the surprise and.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
That was a great decision that you have all massive
bridges that can take the weight of the armor and
mech being inducted.

Speaker 5 (01:09:29):
Absolutely so after the seventeenth when this happened, you know,
then we asked for a flag meeting, or continuously we
have been we've been talking, but then it was the
first core commander level flag meeting ever which was held
on the sixth of June, sixth fifth of June, I
recalled sixth of June at school. So the co commander,

(01:09:49):
you know, had a flag meeting with counterpart then Leulen,
Southern saintj Young Milita District Commander, and you know, the
flagmating continue the entire day and how most of the night,
you know, because he was trying to resist, you know,
going back because he had come with an intent to
come and occupy, and he had that advantage of that

(01:10:10):
moment because he was occupying all the areas which were
claimed by us, and you know, he wanted to retain that.
But finally it was agreed that we will disengage on
the sixth of June, and it was agreed that we
will disengage in a step by step manner. We'll start
with Galvan as the first step, then come to the folksolarssalient,

(01:10:31):
then come to the North bank, you know, and uh
and then disengage completely from this area. So once that
was achieved, you know, while there was a little happiness
that you know, he's going to disengage and go back,
but for me there was a little worry always there
that you know why step by step, you know, they
always tried to put us spoke somewhere or the other

(01:10:51):
and uh so and also to I decided that while
we will disengage at Galvan, and the process was you know,
agreed that you know, so many troops at one point
five kilometers, so many at three and so many at five,
et cetera, and in what format it will be done.
It was also desired that will have an observation post
to monitor the disengagement. Both said, will have an OPI

(01:11:14):
and all that, and it will be wanted at the
at the Journal of Secommanding Joe S level. So you see,
of the three was there and his counterpart was there,
and that OPI thing is something that created the problem
for us at so he put a tent there while
we resisted that you know, the no need to put

(01:11:36):
a tent, but he said, no, no, not to worry.
We will remove this tent the moment the discreet had happened.
So disengagement happened at Galwan. The troops went back to
one point five, three point five and five kilometers, et cetera,
the numbers that were required. And then he told him
to remove the tent, this OPI and he was, you know,
dilly dialing. He was trying a smart act at his level.

(01:11:57):
You know, something that was agreed to at the highest level.
He was trying to you know, not sort of away
that order and that you see of the three day
of counterpart. Now we told him, okay, fine, you know,
tell us a timeline when you will remove this tent.
You would not give a timeline also, you know, to

(01:12:18):
have decided the co commander level, they have to decide
they will give me orders and only then I will
remove etcetera, which was against you know, what was agreed.
So then we said, okay, fine, you keep the tent.
We will also put a tent right next to you.
And when that happens, when you remove, we will also
remove a tent. Now in the process. This because the
negotiation had been going on the whole day. It was

(01:12:39):
late in the evening and we were then putting that
tent there.

Speaker 4 (01:12:42):
And that at the time when.

Speaker 5 (01:12:43):
Little troop level was higher on both sides and things
were out of control. You know, somebody threw a stone,
some boulder, some push and then it was kind of
a mob and that is where you know, then it
became pitch dark night galvan you know, flowing in between
and we suffered cadualties.

Speaker 4 (01:13:00):
The Pakistani. The Chinese also suffered heavy casualties.

Speaker 5 (01:13:04):
And you know that that is where the entire dynamics
of this, you know, face off business with the initial
of that completely changed.

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
So we suffered twenty fatalities. How much in your assessment
did the Chinese suffer?

Speaker 5 (01:13:19):
So the Chinese also lost the commanding officer and they
suffered about forty five plus casualties.

Speaker 3 (01:13:26):
Forty five plus yes, So this was.

Speaker 5 (01:13:28):
Also confirmed by Australian intigency, which you know came up
later with an article. And also you know the Russian
tasks had also published this that they have suffered that
many caualties. Plus we were also observing, you know, we
had an observation post on one of the flanks of
Galvan wherein you know, he was counting the number of
people that were being carried and taken, which was, you know,

(01:13:50):
much more than forty five. Actually one was not sure
that time that how many fatal and hormony this but
they have suffered a large qualities. While they admitted only four,
they're also much much later. That also much later, absolutely
so they also suffered large cualties. But they want to
say a face and they don't want to admit their
own casualties.

Speaker 3 (01:14:08):
Well, we we're a democracy, wee.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
But if the Chinese suffered forty five plus casualties, that
was this the first time that India very strongly and
militarily stood up to China, drew a red line and
said thus far.

Speaker 3 (01:14:25):
And no further.

Speaker 5 (01:14:26):
Absolutely so that was Galvan was the red line. And
then we told the Chinese very very clearly that you know,
we have lost people and you have broken all the agreements.
So now we are not going to follow those agreements.
And you know, we're not going to get into scuffles
that was happening earlier, the face off berails and all that.

(01:14:48):
All that is over and that was very very clearly
indicated to them. But post Calwan, you know, while we
can nuwe to have flag meetings, but since he had
also suffered caualties, you know that acrimony continued and you
were not ready to relent at all. And during this
period from the fifteenth of June till you know, end

(01:15:09):
of August, is when all that built up which I
talked about earlier happened. And we continuously planned our quid
pro co options. You know, we planned, we rehearsed, we
continue to maintain surprise, and went to a large number
of details that what is to be done and not
to be done contingencies.

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
There's one aspect that I must tell of you as
about and you know, those who are listening to this
very fascinating podcast, India's biggest response, if I may, to
what the Chinese had done was the QPQ operations or
the Quid proco operations. So tell us about that, because
I know how and I've seen you firsthand in Cargil,

(01:15:51):
and I've had the privilege and honor of seeing you
firsthand in operations, even during operations snow Leopard in Ladakh,
this QPQ operation, What was your thinking and what was
the government's directive to you?

Speaker 1 (01:16:04):
Sir?

Speaker 5 (01:16:04):
Yeah, So after Goan happened, the Premissive visittle the dark
and we briefed him at length and that exactly what
has happened, and you know, what are the intentions of
the Chinese, how they're going about doing it, and what
are our plans, et cetera. And after having discussed the
whole thing, he gave us a totally free hand, completely
free hand.

Speaker 3 (01:16:22):
The Prime Minister to give you a free.

Speaker 5 (01:16:24):
Hand to what you want to do exactly to the
army that I mean, these operations have to be handled
by the army the way you want to conduct them.
While at the same time, you know, at the high level,
the Ectional help Minister was talking to his counterpart, the
NSA was talking to his counterpart. You know, the WCCY
meeting was happening, and all those channels, all the channels

(01:16:44):
that all you know, all of our nation approach was happening.
But the entire support that we got that time was
was tremendous. And uh, and then all that you know,
build up which I talked about happened, and we continuously
planned our quid pro co options. That what we need
to do to you know, in any negotiation, it had
to be a give and take. So right now we

(01:17:06):
only had to take because they were sitting into areas
which we claimed and there was nothing to give. So
then you know, we planned a quid pro co options.
But what happened on the twenty nine was early morning
to ninth of August, the PLA provided us the trigger
again they tried to change the statusco in the area

(01:17:27):
of the south.

Speaker 4 (01:17:28):
Bank of Panngong. So you know, early morning twenty nine
we saw a lot of torches being flashed, and so
we saw that you know, some some troue boment is
taking place to occupy those in the south bank. When
that happened, we already had our plans in place.

Speaker 5 (01:17:41):
Immediately early morning, pitch dark, around five in the morning,
we launched a brigade plus size force to.

Speaker 4 (01:17:48):
Go and occupy the entire area of south bank.

Speaker 3 (01:17:50):
Wow.

Speaker 5 (01:17:51):
And this was a classic race against the passes from
where the Chinese were coming from the other side and
the side you know, our troops were moving and uh
and we were able to occupy a large number of
area which are dominating the Chinese positions.

Speaker 3 (01:18:06):
And his Moldo garrison.

Speaker 4 (01:18:07):
No, not not not not here, not the Moldol garrison here,
but his roots of you know movement. There's a Chudi
Changla Pass which is there on the south bank, this
south Manga of the Gurung Hill and the chuty Changla
Pass on the side blacktop which is again Chinese side,
and the entire ridge line up to the Pengong.

Speaker 5 (01:18:24):
Sou the drive future. We we occupied and we are
not dominating the Chinese in that area. We did not
allow him to occupy otherwise he would have been dominating
our Chishol garrison. So once we occupied that, then post that.
You know, my biggest very was you know what was
right in front, you know, the Razangla and the China
the class ranges that we call you from this Bungoor gap,

(01:18:45):
the class range starts rising. We have the Razangla path,
then the a chin La Pass and then that goes
for the right up to Klash and uh you know,
right as a brigade commander and a jewics you know, coconuta,
we were talking about the race to the passes that
you know, we would occupy this. And now it was
a situation when just across theres Angla and there a

(01:19:06):
chin La Pass, the Calash Range in the model garrison
beyond there was a huge amount of pl a concentration, artillery,
brigade and make brigade, and the armor and the infantry.
You know, they were all includes pro committee. And the
biggest very that was playing on my mind is that
if he just walks up and sits on it on
the two passes, you know, it's curtains for us, curtains

(01:19:27):
for us, totally curtains for me.

Speaker 4 (01:19:29):
Actually.

Speaker 5 (01:19:30):
So the moment we went and occupied the south Bank,
you know, and he was reacting to that, we immediately
moved our forces to occupy the.

Speaker 4 (01:19:41):
Calash Ranges in broad daylight.

Speaker 5 (01:19:44):
And again this was appears very simple, but there's only
just one track that goes up to Tinla Pass. I've
driven up my vehicle in a number of times as
a brigade commander, and the juicy there, I walked up
the entire area, so I knew the complete terrain and
so we moved, you know, in a very planned manner.

Speaker 4 (01:20:01):
I don't want to sort of give that out but we.

Speaker 5 (01:20:03):
Even follow that up with armor and mechanized which which
was something that totally surprised the PLA. And then we
were deployed on the entire class ranges, you know, overlooking
the Maldo garrison on the other side, and the entire
deployment of the PLA which was you know, sitting on
the on the other side.

Speaker 4 (01:20:20):
This was a masters roke. And then the third thing
we did on the same night was.

Speaker 5 (01:20:25):
That there was another brigade plus size force on the
north bank which he moved up from behind much in
the rear, and that brigade went up and occupied the
area much higher than that Finger four.

Speaker 4 (01:20:38):
And again you know, we that was a total surprise again.

Speaker 3 (01:20:41):
Because then we were dominating him at finger four, we
had two finger.

Speaker 4 (01:20:43):
Eight correct and beyond, and his movement actually that was
taking place behind, so that we got some plus was
you know, sleeping on top. When we reached up there,
there was a kind of surprise.

Speaker 5 (01:20:55):
And to further build up on that, you know that
further north there had two more passes called Cula Vanilla,
and we put up a talent size force plus there
as well. And enclose all the news of approach to
the PLA and uh, and he was totally surprised. You know,
it was so well planned that you know, we have
something called the loop observe, orient, decide and then act,

(01:21:21):
So you know, you have to get into the da
loop of the enemy. You know, while he's observing one
situation and trying to decide and act there, you give
him another situation on the law and then we're trying
to tredjust this situation and before we can act here,
also you gave him a third situation and then a
fourth situation so that he's you know, not able to
act in any manner. So so that is where it

(01:21:42):
went very smoothly. While you know, the calass Ange occupied
during daytime. But but he he did not react at all.
It was only at night that he then now started
moving up on the next night onto the lab his armor,
which he told him that, listen, Galvan has happened. We
are no longer following the protocols. The protocols and all

(01:22:02):
that we will open fire do not come up. And
that's the time when you know, our tanks, our missiles,
our EPCs you know, with their guns loaded and firing
at the tank and aiming at the tank, you know,
with the finger on the trigger. And the easiest thing
to do is to present trigger. But what needs courages

(01:22:23):
do not present trigger when your adversity is coming up
into a crossairs.

Speaker 4 (01:22:27):
Is is where we stopped actually, and those.

Speaker 2 (01:22:30):
Were the times that the tanks were virtually this close
to each other. I mean, it's you can't even imagine
that in a science fiction movie. And this was actually happening. Yes,
so you were the army commander and you have tanks
this closed close and suddenly he decided to pull back.

Speaker 5 (01:22:44):
No, he did not pull back. He stayed there till February.
Till February, but after we had done this quid proco
options and then we came for the flag meeting. After that,
you know, his bodyline was totally different now because now
we were dominating in a largemore. Aerial was sitting on
top of him and and he understood that, you know,
we mean business. And so now then the negotiations started

(01:23:08):
to disengage. And then in February twenty one is when
the segation process started. And we started disengagement from initially
the North Bank, South Bank and then Karash Rangers and
then finally you.

Speaker 4 (01:23:21):
Know, after a couple of years.

Speaker 5 (01:23:24):
October last day is when we disengaged from Debsong and
them Chokcho.

Speaker 3 (01:23:29):
So disengagement has happened.

Speaker 2 (01:23:32):
Yes, what next that India China situation one does not
escalate to the same or worsen as some would say
that if he and Pakistan were to come together.

Speaker 3 (01:23:43):
You've been army commanders and you've dealt with Pakistan, you've
dealt with China.

Speaker 2 (01:23:47):
If both the adversaries were to come together in a
way like they did in Sindhur, but that was China
apparently helping Pakistan. As the deputy chief said, is there
a situation where both of them in that part of
the at the Kara Korum target us simultaneously Sachin Kara
Koram eastern Ladak.

Speaker 5 (01:24:07):
Yeah, you see now the kind of warfare that is happening,
you know, multi domain warfare, contact non contact where there's
a lot of deniability. And you know this in connection
with the fact that you know eighty one percent of
the weapons and equipment of Pakistan Army is Chinese.

Speaker 4 (01:24:26):
So you know the collusive factor, which is there.

Speaker 5 (01:24:30):
Is a given and uh you know already in terms
of let'say, satellite imagery, in terms of I SR and
all that during maybe so Dur, I'm sure what was
prodded by the Chinese to the the pakistanis So I
think that's a reality and we should be prepared for that.

Speaker 2 (01:24:46):
And we hear some voices from the Chinese side that
they're looking for good relations with India. And you study
China very closely, even now when the conversation is all
about reviving you know, some Russia India China trial, natural
Russia India China talks when they talk about this being
you know, the century of India and China together, what

(01:25:07):
do you make of it? Is this once again a
Hindi Chini bye bye nineteen sixties moment?

Speaker 3 (01:25:12):
Or has China.

Speaker 2 (01:25:13):
Realized that now we stare the dragon down perhaps the
first time that's happened in Galwan when you army commander,
when you say Prime Minister in Remodi gave you an
absolute you know, green signal, do what you want, protect
our land.

Speaker 3 (01:25:26):
This is our red line. China has seen this and
now wants good ties with us.

Speaker 4 (01:25:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:25:30):
So yeah, there is one and the final disengagement, you know,
which happened in October twenty first October last year, was
a couple of reasons.

Speaker 4 (01:25:40):
You know, One was that the chance that we took
you know that situsco Anti April twenty twenty is what
is succeptible to us.

Speaker 5 (01:25:48):
And the thing less than that, and the fact that
the relations on the lac on the borders will dictate
the relations between both the countries. You know, this was
related by actual hestminister in all forums everywhere and very
firmly that the relations on the border will dictate the
relationship in the country country April twenty twenty. Nothing less
than that was one of the major factors which played

(01:26:10):
up on the mind. And second, I think since it
happened October and the elections in the US were about
to happen, and I'm sure the Chinese would have done
their you know analysis of maybe probably the Trump admission
likely come and having seen what happened in twenty seventeen,
you know, the amount of pressure that they came in
with the tariffs and all that, so they would have

(01:26:32):
thought that let me keep one front, you know, safe,
and then looking at our markets as well. So the
two factors we should have played up on the mind
and they disengaged and they're looking at you know, warming
up relations with US.

Speaker 2 (01:26:47):
Do you see relationships warm up between India and China
now or is it that verify everything on ground? Borders
have to be peaceful for the other part of the
relationship to move forward. What's your thinking about you from
a from a young officer to a left in general
and even now you understand the Chinese mind.

Speaker 4 (01:27:06):
Yeah, so it's.

Speaker 5 (01:27:08):
You know, very important that we have the escalationion on
the borders because troops while we have the disengaged from
the you know, contacts where we were in close proximity,
but the large number of troupe presents on both sides
is still there.

Speaker 4 (01:27:24):
So they need to go back to the p stations.

Speaker 5 (01:27:26):
You know, that is very very important to have a
situation wherein you know, situation does not escalate beyond a
point you know, anything could trigger off and uh and
what are the other things you asked?

Speaker 3 (01:27:40):
You know, how does relationship improve? Does it genuinely want
to improve relationships?

Speaker 5 (01:27:44):
So the trust factor is you know, something that has
to be built up now because post twenty twenty, the
trust factor between both the countries has been totally lost
and the owners is now the Chinese, you know, to
to bring back that that trust factor, you know, they
continue to while when the first of October last year
we disengaged, you know, and the warming of population so

(01:28:04):
called started. The follow secretary vegeted and as they visited
at interactions, we decided that we will you know, start
the Classmanksha Yatra. Media journalists will be exchanged, direct lights
will start, Hydrological data we will exchange. And all that
movement is a slow classmanks what happened? Other things are
you know, still happening not so much. But on the
other hand, you know, immediately after that they go ahead

(01:28:27):
and declare you know too counties rename them in excitation,
and then after some time they declare another twenty seven
places and renamed them you know, and then they announced
the you know, big dam on the LASS, which has.

Speaker 4 (01:28:45):
Concerns for us. So these issues you know, continue to
sort of irk India and UH and they need to.

Speaker 5 (01:28:54):
Be very very careful on these issues. To take it
ahead from the trust factor has to be built, which
the lives on China.

Speaker 3 (01:29:02):
The ownerslies very clearly on China. This was a fascinating conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:29:07):
Really really enlightening for me and I'm sure for our
viewers and listeners of this podcast. Jelk Joshi Kargil war
Hero and the hero of Galvan and operations Visa Wee
China Operations Snow Leopard. So you've seen the history of
our country first hand and being on top of that

(01:29:28):
situation from of with Cargil to Incidentally, there's a story
that I will have to leave for another time twenty
sixteen when the surgical strikes happened on Pakistan.

Speaker 3 (01:29:38):
The first time you were in the Emo Dirictrid. You
were in Amo Dirictrid.

Speaker 2 (01:29:44):
So India's strong stance against our adversaries. You've been there
in the heart of action. And many many more fascinating
conversations with you in the times ahead.

Speaker 3 (01:29:54):
For joining me on the Chuck Review podcast so many.

Speaker 4 (01:29:58):
Times, thank you, Thank you a good it follow the
pleasure being with.

Speaker 3 (01:30:01):
You, always a pleasure being with you.

Speaker 2 (01:30:03):
Incidentally, I must also tell of you as I've had
the privilege of interviewing him on top of Tololing.

Speaker 3 (01:30:08):
You know, when he was the core command and I
said I really want to interview you. He said, I'm
going to Thlowing tomorrow morning, Ajau Carlo interview And I
walked to Thilowling to interview you.

Speaker 2 (01:30:19):
That time and I did that motorcycle ride with you
the Groove Cargal Motorcycle Rally, and thank you very much
for that opportunity too.

Speaker 4 (01:30:28):
Pleasure always a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (01:30:31):
Thank you very much, sir, Thank you. Look forward to
many more interactions with you.

Speaker 4 (01:30:34):
Thanks.

Speaker 3 (01:30:35):
That is all we have for you on this special broadcast.

Speaker 2 (01:30:38):
Many thanks for watching and for this podcast, for listening
to this log on, tune in and do listen to
the Chuck Review podcast on India Today.

Speaker 1 (01:30:48):
This is India Today Podcasts

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From Kargil to Galwan: Untold tales of unparalleled valour | Chakravyuh | Ep 06

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}From Kargil to Galwan: Untold tales of unparalleled valour | Chakravyuh | Ep 06