Pakistan on the Brink: Asim Munir’s Power Grab & Balochistan’s Fight for Freedom | Chakravyuh | Ep 07 - Chakravyuh

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is India Today Podcasts.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hello and welcome to a special edition of the Chuck
Review Broadcast.

Speaker 1 (00:08):
I'm God of Sabbath.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
My guest today is very special. He's written four books
on Pakistan. He's edited four books on Pakistan. He's served
in Pakistan, and he was special secretary in the Cabinet
secretary or in the Research and Analysis waying or raw.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
He knows Pakistan like the back of his hand.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
And it is my proud privilege to welcome on the
Chuck Review podcast.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
Te Lak Devasher, Sir, Welcome on India Today.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
Thank you so much, girl, Thank you so much for
calling me. I'm looking forward to a conversation.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
And it's great you are here.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
It's great you are here at this time because a
lot is happening in Pakistan. And when you listen to
some of the analysts in Pakistan, they say they get
to know more about their country through you and your
writings and your book.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
You know then then you otherwise.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
So let's begin by asking you is a constitutional coup
of sorts underway already in Pakistan.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
There are a lot of straws in the wind, and
a lot of them are have been originated by the
Aji Asemuni wanting to become the president of Pakistan. He
doesn't want to do it through a military coup because
then sanctions kin i am if funding will stop, So
he wants to do it constitutionally, and we can talk

(01:32):
in detail. The government has now got the two thirds
majority that they need to make a constitutional amendment. But
the other half of the equation is to get rid
of Adari, who's the president now assist Dari is no pushover,
so they will have to maneuver in such a manner
that Bilawal Bhutto is given something substantial, which then Zalari

(01:54):
feels satisfied that his next generation has been looked after
and they need to garage gradually eased out. So a
lot of things that are happening below the surface in
Pakistan constitutionaly because of the ambitions of a.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
And Asemuli is a very ambitious man.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
He's he's actually orchestrated his career in such a way
that he ensured he does you know, he became Dgisi.
He tried to get close to Imranhan. He couldn't because
when he ratted out his wife, he got into trouble.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
But then he ensured he became army chief.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
He ensured that he became field marshaled despite losing to
Indian operations in there.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
And now he wants to be president. Can he do that?
I mean within the army is everyone with him?

Speaker 3 (02:40):
Is he the bar? Is that? Constitutionally a serving officer
of somebody enjoying office of profit cannot become president. So
the constitution has to be amended to allow that to happen. Right,
But you mentioned orchestrated. You know, his promotionals three star,
which took place in two thousand eighteen, eighteen eighteen, he

(03:03):
didn't pick up his rank for two months, that's right.
He and his badge were promoted into in September. He
disappeared for two months, I mean disappeared in this disappeared.
I don't know where he went, no, I mean I'm
not aware of it. All his other people who were
promoted took over their rank in September, so they retired
in after four years in September twenty twenty two. This
man picked up his rank on twenty seventh November twenty eighteen,

(03:27):
so he was due for retirement on twenty seven November
twenty twenty two, and even more days before Bajar retired,
so the government, as per the Army Act, gave him
a retention order for two days and then made him
Army chief. But he ensured that he was the senior
most left in general to be considered for. He was calculating,
he was calculating way back in twenty eighteen that this

(03:49):
is how the scenario will unfold.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
And he's seen as this radical Islamist general. He almost
sees himself as this Islamic warrior who's fighting.

Speaker 3 (03:59):
You know that. I don't know if he's in the
ZR mold or not. He's yet to come out in
his full potential. But yes, he's half his old Kuran.
He knows the Quran by heart. He quotes from the
Quran every now and then to impress everybody with his
Islamic credentials. But whether he is in a radical Islamist
like Zia, you know, bringing in all those Islamization measures,

(04:22):
time will tend when years full authority.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
Now in an era where they say there are no
free lunches, he was invited to White House and given lunch.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
There are some reports that seem to indicate that he
was I mean, if Trump is transactional, what's the transaction here.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
I think Trump was sounding him out, sizing him up
that in case they need help of Pakistan for Iran,
you know, for air bases, for recovery, for rehabilitation of
US soldiers with his playball, will he So that's the
other point. So the chap with him was DJ who's

(05:02):
who was also NSA, and in case were to step
down and step up, he would also be in contention
for the army chief. So I think the US was
trying to get a sense of both these persons. And
also I'm sure Iran would have figured very much. So
the quid pro co would probably be on Iran to
sound them out on Iran use of the basis, especially

(05:25):
you know in Queta from see Jacoba Bar, you know,
other things like that.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
So that jacket Jacob about air Force said the US
would not be too happy with that.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
No wonder US is giving us grief.

Speaker 3 (05:39):
Yeah. So, But the other thing interesting thing about the lunch,
you would have noticed the visuals. His limousine could go
up into the porch of the White House. He had
to get off before and walk, and if he threw
the body language through the bars, he was embarrassed. They
field marshaled and you're making a field marshal walk. So
I think then he invinced him that next time he comes,

(06:01):
he'll come as president.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Oh that's right. So if he's head of state is limous.

Speaker 3 (06:07):
The previous army chiefs like ayub Zi or all heads
of government, heads of state. The vehicles moved in so
lunch KaiA and yeah, I don't know what happened, but
this was the one takeaway as far as I'm concerned,
that he made up his mind that look, this is
not on. It is embarrassing for me to have to walk.
So I am going to change my designation, my status

(06:29):
and make sure that I'm president.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
So if he were to become presidents will have to
step down.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
If a would want his future secured, which would mean
he wants would he would want to become not foreign minister,
but at least prime minister or foreign minister of prime minister,
what would he want?

Speaker 1 (06:46):
What is rehabilitation for you?

Speaker 3 (06:49):
See, he can't become prime minister because because POP doesn't
have enough seats in the National man and as more
and they are longing to relinquish the old PA. Melen
would not relinquish Punjab because Punjab is you know the
Britain butter the bastion. So I don't know whether the
Deputy Prime Minister like what is Shakha is at the moment,
and Foreign Minister or some such thing which will then

(07:13):
reassure Sazari that is Sun's future is safe.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
But would PMLN be okay with it? I mean, I
know Shaba Sheriff is known as boot Polish.

Speaker 3 (07:21):
Yeah, so pmele and you know once the Ani says
keep you know, not in a wink. They have no
backbone left. They have nothing to resist the army with,
so they will live.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
Follow in line and quotes also on board because quotes
also seem to be split in Pakistan.

Speaker 3 (07:39):
Well, you know after the twenty sixth Amendment, what the
twenty six Amendment did was to create a Constitutional Bench
of the Supreme Court. So all the constitutional and really
the cases which are important now come to the Constitutional Bench.
They made sure that the Chief Justice of the Constitutional
Bench and the bench itself is packed with those judges

(08:02):
were favorable to the government. Judges. Yeah. So you know,
in this particular case last year in twenty four July,
the Supreme Court had given a decision on the reserved seats.
You see in the constitutional arrangement in Pakistan, you have
elected seats and representatives and you have seventy reserved seats
for women and minorities. Now those are crucial informing governments

(08:26):
or even in two thirds majority. So the Election Commission
of Pakistan took the view that since the PTI had
not contested as a party but as independents, they were
not entitled to any reserved seats. But the Supreme Court
judgment of July twenty twenty four said, no, you have
to give the reserved seats to PTI, in which case
the PTA would have become the largest party in parliament.

(08:49):
Can you value in the election commission? This is the
full bench of the Supreme Court, the election Commission and
the government refused to implement the judgment. There am through
the twenty sixth Amendment which created a Constitution Bench of
the Supreme Court, and this bench overturned the decision of
the full bench of the Supreme Court. Is does happened?
You know, once a full bench of court, Supreme Court

(09:09):
takes a view, it's the law, it's the law. But
this constitutional bench upturned that decision and said no, pt
is not entitled to any seats, and they distributed those
reserved seats among the PML IN and the PPLE. You know,
the strange situation that has happened KPK. The PML in
had got three seats, they've got five additional seats of

(09:32):
the reserved seats. It's mostly in the business of proportional representation.
PPP had two, they've got three additional s to pts.
They were in a majority anyway, it makes no difference
to them, but fars of proportional representation and the fars
of democracy that you are getting more seats than what
you're actually won in elections. So it's really farsticle. So

(09:56):
now this allows the PML government a two thirds majority
in which they can now change the constitution as per
what Assemone wants.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
So the change in constitution would then ensure Assimoni can
be army Chief and President of Pakistan, and he would
want that presidential form of government where his word is
the law in Pakistan.

Speaker 1 (10:16):
What does the Prime minister then do?

Speaker 3 (10:18):
He's the figure it you see, after he met Trump,
he addressed the journalists. He made two very interesting statements there.
While he said that he really praised the American system,
the American presidential system. There was a clear hint which
way his mind was working. And secondly, he said that

(10:40):
I hope to be able to resolve Pakistan's problems politically,
diplomatically and all that before I leave, which could be
around twenty thirty five.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
Wow. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
So he already wants to remain in POWERCT at least
the next ten years.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah, and their dictators have lasted around ten eleven.

Speaker 3 (10:55):
Years in the normal.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
Nine to eleven years.

Speaker 3 (11:00):
I mean, this is a real giveaway for presidential system.
And I'm sure when he goes to Sri Lanka, one
of the things we're looking at is how does that
executive presidency actually works because they also have a president,
they have a prime minister. Even the French system correct
the president.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
And powerful president, but they also have a prime minister.

Speaker 3 (11:16):
Only in the case of US there is no prime minister.
So I'm sure he's looking at all his staff, he's
looking at these various things about the presidential system.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
Do they have a time frame in your view by
when he wants to do this.

Speaker 3 (11:29):
No, I don't think so. I don't think it's just.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
But he's completely in control. I mean, he's the all
powerful leader of Pakistan already.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
Except does not have the kind of public support and
adulation which Pakistan Army in the past has had.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
And that's because of him Ran Khan.

Speaker 3 (11:44):
That is a because of Imran Khan. He's really dented
their prestige, the aura and charisma that the army had
and the security situation you see with a kind of
hits that the Pakistan Army is taking on a daily basis.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
Yeah, apparently they losing four to five soldiers every day
either in Baluchistan or in KPK.

Speaker 3 (12:03):
You know, according to this Global Terrorism Index, they are
now these second country faced with terrorism maximum amount of
terrorists and last year in twenty twenty four, the security
forces lost six hundred and eighty five people. That army,
paramilitary and police six eighty five a year means fifty
seven casualties a month. Imagine fifty seven casualties a month

(12:27):
after months or the security forces.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
Apparently the soldiers don't want to go when they're deputed
to areas in beyond Peshawar.

Speaker 1 (12:35):
They just don't want to go. They don't want to
serve in Baluchistan.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
Yeah, yeah, and I think for reasons that all the
generals are sitting in their offices and these guys and thesis,
these are all Pajabis. Yeah, you see a for a Pajabi.
He's used for fighting in trains, you know, infantry, regular infantry,
for fighting either in KPK the mountainous territory or in

(12:58):
the deserts and mountains. He is a brutus son. He's
like fish out of water. And they don't have the
kind of counter terrorism training which let's say the Indian
Army as we're having, you know, whatever the terrain, the
Indian Army is always there. Pakistan Army is not like that.
So they have a big problem. So the prestige of
the army being all powerful, yes in names, certainly, but

(13:19):
the prestige has been tinted by Iran Khan and by
the fact that people are asking that if you can't
protect yourself America protection, how will you protect us?

Speaker 2 (13:29):
So I come to the security situation in just a
moment because I want to talk at length about it.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
I want to for a moment, we've talked about PPP
and pmllen.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
What about Imran Khan Because apparently fifth of August and
fifth of August, both in India and Pakistan.

Speaker 3 (13:43):
Become big days.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
And Bangladesh, yes, they've become big days.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
And I mean we're hoping to see what our own
government does on the fifth of August this year. But
Iran Khan or at least his party is talking about
this massive jalsa for his release from jail.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
Will Assemoni relent?

Speaker 2 (14:03):
Keep?

Speaker 1 (14:04):
They say?

Speaker 2 (14:07):
And in Pakistan when you talk to Pakistanis, they say,
either Asimoni will survive or Imran Khan will survive. One
has to die or leave the country. Arsemoni looks all powerful.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
Yeah, you see this. This stems from when Zia had
arrested Butto and he was contemporary. Should he release him
or should he not release him? Then one politician tolds
Yia as a general cover aka both of you can't survive.
So that tradition has continued.

Speaker 1 (14:38):
So seventy seven the coup and seventy nine Bhutto was gone.

Speaker 3 (14:43):
Yeah, so even now Kamaki Ami or Imran Khan.

Speaker 1 (14:48):
And will history repeat itself?

Speaker 3 (14:50):
What is your understanding, seah, I don't see Imran Khan
coming out of jail so long as Ami is in power.
So long as he's in power, he can't afford to
have Imran Khan out in the streets because then he's finished.
And if Imran Khan is freed, he will make sure
that Asimuoni gives pand bars. He's tried into Articles six
or whatever.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
He messed around with his wife and charnished her reputation.
I Ran Khan's sons apparently, I mean from an earlier wife,
Jemima Goldsmith, their kids, their sons have apparently been in
the United States campaigning for Imran's.

Speaker 3 (15:23):
Yes, they have met a lot of people, and they're
supposed to come to Pakistan to take part in the
fifth August protests. Now I don't know whether their government
allow them to come. And even if they come, do
they know or do I don't know. I ne us
heard them speak, So what are they going to do?
They're going to speak in English, then they might as
well do it through you know, zoom or something other,

(15:45):
because what are they going to do?

Speaker 2 (15:46):
Blaur is also quite dodgy at times, very accented.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
Anyways, So that was the fifth August.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
Yes, i Ran Khan is given a call, But there's
a lot of infighting in the party. You see, he's
been out of action for two years, so there's a
lot of various scams. And here the conflict is between
the Punjab chapter of the PDA and the central leadership.
There is still no clarity kill the protests begin on
fifth of August. Is it a one day protest or
will it culminate it has already begun, will culminate on

(16:15):
the fifth or what this early? You mean? Gidnapore, the
Chief bast of KPKA has said ninety days cultivatum there Now,
what does ninety days mean starting from fifth culminating on
the fifth. So there is a lot of chaos as yet,
there is mobilized. I mean, you know, to arrange a
protest like in Pakistan, you have to get transport, bring

(16:35):
people from all over. You have to range for food,
you know, the big gigs that are made. You need
to organize sleeping arrangements. You can't do it fifth, you
know it can't happen that way. True, So the Punjab
chapter is saying, you know, what are we to do?
What are we to do? You know, you have to mobilize.
You have to give us time, you have to give
us resources so that we can do it right now.

(16:57):
So I am wondering, of course the five days to go?
So let's see what happens. But as of now, the
party is here and there.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
So I rankan, did you expect that he would be
able to survive so long in jail? Because many would,
Many had argued, given his background, given the kind of
luxury he was used to, and the opulence of his lifestyle.
Also from what his ex wife has written, he wouldn't
be able to survive in jail two days, three days,

(17:27):
and he survived over two years.

Speaker 3 (17:30):
A well looked after in jail, well looked after. He's
even special facilities, you know, things like Jim the Murga.
You know how to eat and to exercise, and you
know stuff like that. But yes, still two years is
a very long time for somebody who used to a softer,
a softer kind of life. And there were a lot

(17:50):
of reports earlier that he had to have his xes
every evening. Yes, and in jail, I don't think he'll
be getting.

Speaker 1 (17:58):
Those unless he's being provided fixes.

Speaker 3 (18:00):
To wonder, I wonder so, But yes, I must say
hats off to his perseverance, to his courage.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
But that would make a Simuni a very worried man,
because absolutely, but there were reports that seemed to indicate
that after that May ninth revolution or revolt in Pakistan,
which was a treat to watch. I must say, you know,
when the poor commander's house is in Lahore, it's being
set a blaze and you know.

Speaker 3 (18:28):
Over the peacock.

Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yeah, probably from from his kitchen or you know, path
based Miyavali targeted their planes being targeted. Is SI headquarters
or scout off is being targeted. I mean, I made
sure we played that very extensively. But tell me this.
After that one, that was a blow to the reputation
of the Pakistani. It showed a split in the Pakistanami
and Pakistani then cracked down on Imran supporters. Did they

(18:53):
succeed in breaking the back of Imrankhan's supporters because I
believe some generals wives and daughters was put in jail.

Speaker 3 (19:00):
Yeah. So you know, it's very difficult to gage support
without elections, you know, you can't. But from whatever anecdotal
stories and information, he continues to be extremely popular amongst
the urban youth, the middle class because he has given
them a dream of and this, you know a couple

(19:27):
of other slogans. The sense of hopelessness in Pakistan is
so much that anybody who can sell a dream. People
will follow him blindly, so nobody knows. Nobody knows what
does mean if I don't have a job, WILLI gives
me a job? And if so, what is the economic policy?
Nobody's even asking these questions. The fact that he has

(19:50):
said bus that is it.

Speaker 1 (19:52):
But so I can't ask him. When you sell that.

Speaker 3 (19:54):
Dream social popularity, you know, Imran Khan's whole persona. These
now become a cult figure. You know, he can do
no wrong, he can say no wrong. They brought out
so many videos and horrible tapes of his you know,
all kinds of it made no difference to the people.
It made no difference because the sense of hopelessness, the frustration.

(20:15):
Asked the cow, the sheriffs are discredited because they're busy
making their own money. Again his line. You see, when
the army wanted to discredit the sheriffs, they egged on
Imran Khant to say that the sheriffs are corrupt. You're
the only honest guy.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
And when their money is parked in the UK and overseas.

Speaker 3 (20:32):
And everybody believed that Imran Khan is the only honest guy.
Everybody else is corrupt, So is he honest? You're maybe personally.
Maybe personally it doesn't require but the party certainly and
the people around him are certainly making Money's wife was
making money. His wife was making you almost want the money.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
I mean they were selling off state gifts and not
sending that money to Tosha Khana but keeping them money.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
So that's corruption.

Speaker 3 (20:56):
Absolutely, and that's watch which given you know that kind
of thing. So his popularity is something which air or
Navashi Fors or Mariam even just cannot compete with.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
Is ASEMONI completely in control of Pakistan. Also in terms
of control of the army. Are all the co commanders
with him. There were some reports that seem to indicate
that there was a degree of opposition to him even
amongst the co commanders and the seniors didn't like him.

Speaker 3 (21:24):
That doesn't happen in the army in Pakistan. The highest
decision making body is the co Commander's conference. They will
debate issues pretty democratically. People will have opposition with something,
they will express their views, but once the final decision
is taken, everybody falls in line. They may like Imran Khan,
they may be popular. Imran Khan may be popular in

(21:45):
the army, but that doesn't mean triple one brigade. Brigade
commander goes, you want to get up and go and
attack with that. No, that's not going to happen. Personally,
they can be their families can be supportive of Imran Khan.
The retired veterans would be supportive of Bran Khan. But
so what once you see the popularity of the army

(22:06):
chief and the whold of the army chief the two
separate things. The army chief may not be popular amongst us,
the soldiers and the army officers, but he has controlled.
No colonel or no general is going to go up
in the stage, so they won't be a coup like
that In Pakistan there have been attempted coups in the past.
Is a Basi fellow for example, or this.

Speaker 1 (22:28):
Or that Ziaudin who was egged on by Navachar.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
He was appointed by Navaja. You know what happened there.
The Defense Ministry refused to send the notification because that
notification was not sent. People said, we don't accept it
unless Section Officer of the minisse notification A. He has
been appointed army chief. He's not army chief.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
Because it was very fascinating, I covered the cargo war.
And after that in October, we were watching those images
on Pakistan television of the Triple One going into over
that railing into.

Speaker 1 (23:03):
PTV office and arresting the people.

Speaker 2 (23:05):
And through the night I was talking to friends in
the government here and across just to know what is
happening in Pakistan. So when that coup happened, we don't
we don't foresee a coup like that happening in Pakistan as.

Speaker 3 (23:18):
The Blackstone event. At the moment no, I mean, I'll
check my neck out and say at the moment, no,
simply because Pakistan Ami has not a tradition of this.
You know, the chain of command holds.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
Because they're all making money on the side.

Speaker 3 (23:30):
Yeah, otherwise if they if there is some sort of
disruption somebody's stages are cool that all those foggy foundations,
Waria Foundation and all.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
That that corner plot foundation.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
Yeah sixteen is plot, you know that, So all that
will be in jeopardy. So they all hang together or
hang separately.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
Very interesting hang together, or they'll be hanged separately. And
did hangs up. But you know, if when we are
talking about.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
Corner plots, Pakistan Army has never won a war either
against India or even if they were assisting.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
You know, now Taliban is killing them. Now, Taliban is
using drones to kill Pakistan army and this panic in Pakistan.

Speaker 2 (24:12):
They don't know how to deal with drones killing them
on the af Pack border. What's happening there, because let's
also talk about what's happening in KPK right now.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
Yeah, so you know a fact in fact is a
link issue. We can talk about that later. But I've
gone refugees miserable condition.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
And for this guy forced them back into Afghanistan, not really.

Speaker 3 (24:32):
Them, iranis forced even more. Iran has pushed out about
a half a billion people just in the month of July,
so now half pack. There is a structural issue. Despite
they may talk about brotherly this and that. The structural
issue is a Durand Line. Correct. No Afghan government since
nineteen forty nine is accepted the Durand Line as its
border with Afghanistan. Correct. Pakistan says it is an international border.

(24:58):
Afghanistan says it does doesn't exist. And should I give
a little technical background.

Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yes, because they created a fence and the Taliban towdown
that fence. Taliban Afghanistan says that border is Peshawar is
part of Afghanistan.

Speaker 3 (25:10):
The last treaty between Afghanistan and British India was nineteen
twenty one Treaty of Kabul that had a very interesting
clause that the treaty was valid for three years. After
three years, any of the two sides of Aaristan or
British India, by giving twelve months a notice could rescin
the treaty. The resident in the treaty means this is
basically a replacement of the Duran line. So all those

(25:31):
treaties will get prescented. This is nineteen twenty one. In
nineteen forty nine a layage your governe is the highest
apex body in Afghanistan met and they descended this treaty
the resident of the Duran line, the eighteen seventy six
Treaty of gand all treaties. So as far as they
have gone, the concern there is no border demarketed border
with a Pakistan and no of Ghan governments in nineteen

(25:52):
forty nine, whether it was the monarchy, whether it was
the communists, whether it was the Mujaidin, whether it is
the Taliban, have changed this position. So for all of
them there is no boundary, and Pakistan has tried in
Taliban one point oh thrice to went to Boloma and said,
durand line commandlow. He was so furious he threw out

(26:13):
that the Home Minister had gone to discuss this, and
it threw him out of his office. We'll get out.
He was eating lunch. In fact, was the prison tradition.
It was really something very very odd for but he
was so upset that how dare you ask me to
accept the Duran lane. Taliban two point two have said

(26:33):
the same thing. They've gone even ahead, as you mentioned,
uprooting the fence. So because of this structural problem, and
then added to this, Taliban is supporting the Taliban Pakistan yes,
because you know when the Taliban needed help, it was
the tribals in the FATA, the ex fata who supported them.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
So this is when after nine to eleven, when the
Americans were bombing Taliban, all these Talibans came into NWFP and.

Speaker 1 (27:01):
The administered tribal areas.

Speaker 3 (27:03):
As Weston Valley. Now that the tribals require help, so
the code of honor, Yeah, they can't but help them
and they're told, look, we can't do it. We can
help facilitate talks. Our bath willow you talk to them.
There is all the issue. But we cannot fight against them.
We cannot defang them, we cannot arrest them.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
In fact, they're giving them all the M four's and
all the other weapons.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
That is, you know why, that is their share for
fighting against the US.

Speaker 1 (27:34):
So they have a code of honor.

Speaker 3 (27:36):
Yeah, okay, that you helped us. We've got a hundred weapons.
Is your loot, you know, it's your marlagan so and
nobody can teach them to fight in their hills. They're
far better than the Pakistan Army. So they're taking a
huge hit. And now the Taliban, the ttp have coming
into the planes, you know, like in another tonk in

(27:58):
other places. They are now attacking the Pakistan Army and
camps in these places.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Apparently four army majors were killed in a span of
one week in Baluchistan and KPK just last week.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
So tell me this, uh Pakistan Army.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
Is virtually not in control of KPK, or at least
the hill region or the tribal areas there.

Speaker 1 (28:20):
Taliban says, we don't recognize the Duran line.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
Our control is all the way and in fact I
remember I was interviewing somebody good ten years ago in
the administration and they said, we don't recognize our border
is with India. We don't have what is Pakistan instead
of Afghanistani instead of you know, there's Afghanistan and Hindustan

(28:44):
Pakistan exactly. And these guys, you know, they said their
blood brothers and that's a strategic depth.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
They don't have depth.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
And I once said Pakistan they have depth absolutely, you know.
I'd once mentioned on for which a lot of criticism
came from Pakistan. I said, it's a very tiny, narrow
dog shaped country which is getting even narrower, it.

Speaker 3 (29:07):
Seems absolutely because the Durand Line, as you mentioned, Taliban
don't recognize it, the pressure from the t TP they
want the de merger of HATA and NWFP. So there
is the Pashtuon pincier from both sides of the Durand line.
And if Pakistan doesn't play this imaginatively and sensitively, you know,

(29:28):
they can find that it will be give mainstream the
idea of a larger Perston entity.

Speaker 2 (29:33):
And they're anyway looking for a Pashtoonistan and the way
they're ill treating the.

Speaker 1 (29:36):
Pashtoons yeah, they're anyway.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
Talking about so they ill treated Afghans in their own country,
the refugees.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Now there's trouble in Pershunistan.

Speaker 2 (29:45):
There's also massive Shias only violence that's taking place in
that region.

Speaker 3 (29:48):
Yeah, there is this one particular district they've.

Speaker 2 (29:52):
Killed about seventy in one go and one hundred and
twenty these two villages that were fighting with each other.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
The military corner.

Speaker 3 (29:59):
That the army always used to create trouble within this years.
So for Pakistan this is a very critical and think
if you look at the politics of KPK, you have
the TTP now which is now dominating very districts. You
have the mainstream political parties, but the PTI is in power,
which is opposition to the federal government. Then you have

(30:21):
the pt in Pakistan, the Helpful Movement, which is a
civil society movement, civil rights. You know, they say that
we don't want to be treated as calm Ford, we
don't want to go for ja and is the the
leaders said career, you go ahead, we don't want to
take all the credit. It's about time you went and

(30:41):
did this. It's being sarcastic. So KPK is in turmoil.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
And is that the reason that Asimir is scared that
the weapons that that are there with the provincial forces
in Hyber could be used against his Punjabi army.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
And is that why he's bringing all those state forces
as federal forces.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
And that is for a different reason. That reason is that, uh,
he wants to get this. You see the he's changed
the Frantic constabulary into the federals. These are all Batans
officered by the army, but they are it is easier
for them to tackle the PTI per job protesters in

(31:29):
Punjab then for a Pajabi force, you see, a Pajabi
force will.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
Hesitate to fire at the Pajabs.

Speaker 3 (31:36):
You see, during Bo's this Piona agitation, three brigadiers were
sacked because they refuse to order their troops to fire
at the Pia, three of them. That's when Zia decided
enough is enough, I need to now stop this and
get rid of But a Patan force will be only

(31:57):
too willing, happy to happy to tackle the That's why
that was done. Not for weaponry as such, but yes,
the army is worried because the weaponry that the TTP
has or the Baloche's probably as good, if not better
than the Pakistan Army because it's all left behind by
the US, the force, the snipers, night vision, you know,

(32:18):
they have access to all that now and.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
Now BLA also has it, and the drones and the
bl has it.

Speaker 2 (32:24):
What is the cooperation in your assessment, Sir, in the
coordination between TTP and Baloch Liberation Army, because it almost
appears that Pakistan's entire you know, the western part is
no longer or in semi control of the Pakistan Army.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
Baluchistan is bleeding and.

Speaker 3 (32:44):
They have a tire. They have a tactical tie up
in the sense that the BO given space to the TTP,
So the TTP have now got their own Bluchistan. They've
got two provinces in Baluchistan. One is the North which
is correct and in the Makran coast, so the Kalath
and Makran province, and one in the north.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
So ballutes and persons. They have their own border also there.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
Yeah, and in turn, the TTP has shared their weaponry
and allowed them space for rest and you know, for
sanctuary in Afghanistan Talawan. I've allowed that. So, but this
is a tactical cooperation even in the sense because their
objectives are totally different. The separation from Pakistan. The TTP
doesn't want separation.

Speaker 1 (33:28):
It wants to convert the entire Pakistan into a caliphate.

Speaker 3 (33:31):
Yeah, into their version of Sharia, into their version. So
there is no meeting ground ideologically, But because they both
have a common enemy, they can cooperate tactically. So in
many of the operations that they have done, you'll find
that the TTP claims credit in something which has been
done in the Blows area.

Speaker 2 (33:47):
So what most people don't realize, and I'll come to
the India Pakistan question in just a moment. People think
of Pakistan as this one entity that is sending terrorists
into our country. The fact remains within Pakistan just Pakistan's
Punjab province is virtually at war with Gilgit Baltistan, with

(34:09):
Pakistan occupied Jamun Kashmir, with the Pashtun movement in KPK,
with Baluchistan. I'll come to Sin then, the Cholistan movement,
the Cholistan fight in just a moment. But Baluchistan, Sir,
You've written a book on Baluchistan which is supposed to
be the biggest, you know, the most authoritative account of
their independence struggle from nineteen forty eight onwards till date,

(34:32):
Is that truly an independence from Pakistan struggle?

Speaker 3 (34:36):
Yeah, it is is because during the Pakistan movement itself,
the Muslim Nik didn't even have a presence in Khalat.
The Khan of Khalat was used Jinna as a lawyer
to argue the case for Khalas independents. And Jina is
the one who fought as a lawyer the case for
Khalas independence. But the Muslimlik had no presence. There was

(34:59):
a presence in the north, the Paston area in Queta.
So you had like sah and you know people that
they and they.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
Wanted to be a part of India.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
The the the kind of kind of Kalak wanted to
be a part of India and Khan wanted to be a.

Speaker 1 (35:17):
Part of India.

Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yeah, so imagine that entire belt wanted to be a
part of India and we want vise to.

Speaker 3 (35:23):
That that was in fact, Khan very tragically told Gandhiji,
you have thrown us to the wolves.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
And he was known as the Frontier.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
And Gandhiji was he was the only guy who struggled
to ensure that the NWFP at that time does not
remain away from India. But I think the Congress was
in too much of a hurry to get independence. They
didn't want to negotiate this into a stand that if
you don't agree to a referendum. You see what the
British did. This Indian independence option to join India or

(35:58):
to join Pakistan given to all the elected assemblies. All
provincial assemblies voted on it, except in the case of WFP,
because they were the Congress government, and the British realized
that if it is given for voting to the Assembly,
they will vote for an accession to India, then what
remains of Pakistan? Because the NWFP for them was the
most critical factress frontier, you know. So they said, no,

(36:23):
we will have a referendum and not give it to
the Assembly. And for reasons which I have not studied,
but I'm sure other scholars would have. Why did the
Congress agree to the differendum because elections had been held
in nineteen forty six on this very issue of India
was the Parkistan. This is what the Farkhan said. He said,
the election the way of it's a afriend on the

(36:43):
same issue. He said, all right, if you want to
do a referendum, then have the third option. Ofuonistan also
in their referendum.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
But then we said, no, I want to understand this
mindset of funded there because we've we've studied one kind
of history and we haven't really been able to study this.
If Pakistan could have a East Pakistan on the other
side of India, why couldn't we have India on the
other side of this narrower sliver called Pakistan. NWFP would

(37:12):
have been ours and Baluchistan would have been asked there
would have.

Speaker 3 (37:15):
Been ours, So barujustan leave that for the side. But
here when you had an elected Congress government in power
and Kansa was the chief milister, and who wanted They
had supported Congress for the last twenty thirty years of
the freedom stuggy yeah, and what with them, you know,
shoulder to shoulder in protests, in police for meetings and

(37:38):
all that. And the Congress Party of the NWFP did
not want to go to Pakistan and wanted a referendum
that it has already been held for why a referendum
the Assembly will vote because they had a majority. But
I had a loss really to understand today why this
was done. What was the compulsions of the Congress Party

(38:00):
tions of despite Gandhiji's pressure, they don't do it. Yet
they went they had and accepted to hold a referendum,
and once a friendum was decided upon, then the British
helped the Muslim League in their propaganda against the Congress.
Finally the far Khan they boycotted the afriendum. Yes, it

(38:20):
was you know, no brainer that the a friend that
will go in favor of Pakistan. But that was I
think a big tragedy. And the far Khan always held
this against India, that.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
Or Abibi kh and Hibstan.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
So Baluchistan in nineteen forty eight was an independent country.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
It wasn't a part of Pakistan.

Speaker 3 (38:43):
It wasn't a part of India.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
It wasn't part of India, of course.

Speaker 3 (38:45):
You know. So there then the Khan had sent an
emissary to India who met ab Kalam Adhu was at
that time the Congress president, and he said, yes, we
agree that you know you are an independent country, but
if you who will not be able to defend your
independence and the British will come and so the weakness
the whole subcontinent will suffer and things like that. So

(39:09):
and then the tragic thing that the Khrn listened to
the Lady Radio news of nine o'clock in the evening
and VP men and I had made a statement. Ia
Khan's representative came but something very dismissive. So Khan listen
to that broadcast. It is really upset. Then you open
negotiations with Jina, you know, not accession, but what kind

(39:33):
of a treaty relationship they could have. So that again
was one of these I think in hindsight, you know,
lost opportunity by that time. I don't know what the
compulsions were. Why did this?

Speaker 2 (39:45):
And then Jinna sent the Pakistan army marching in March
in March nineteen forty eight.

Speaker 3 (39:50):
Because the British prevailed upon him. Initially, the British thought
that they could use Baluchistan Kalath as a base to
counter the Soviets took out to the Soviet. That was
to protect the wells of power, you know, because oil
has suddenly been discovered in the Second World War. This
was a crucial thing. They realized this is going to
be very important for the future, so to protect the

(40:13):
wells of power. Later on, when they realized that whole
of Pakistan was at their disposal, Jena was ready to
do whatever they wanted that instead of having a weak
Pakistan by Khalas being separated, to have a strong Pakistan
with the inclusion of Kalak. So there's documentation they wrote
to the governor British High Commissioner that trail upon Jina

(40:34):
not to accede to Khalas independence and force its succession.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
So a man who was advocate or lawyer for independents
of Baluchistan sent in jack boots and Pakistan Army and
that Pakistanmi is still in Baluchistan and they're still bleeding.

Speaker 3 (40:47):
Yeah, because have not accepted it.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
They have not not in forty eight, not in twenty
twenty five.

Speaker 3 (40:53):
Not in forty eight, not in fifty eight, or in
sixty two, not in seventy three, and not in two
thousand and five, not in Yeah, the fifth group, and
it's been contruying for the last twenty one years.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
A Baluch in a position to gain.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
Independence from Pakistan Army or it's impossible when you're fighting
a nuclear state.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
No, it's not impossible. The nuclear is out of the question.
They're not going to nuke Baluchasan.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
Because they've already used attacked gunships and fighters against them.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
They've thrown everything against artillery.

Speaker 3 (41:24):
Have sixteen helicopter gunships, the works, but the Boche not.
So it is not impossible for the Buloch to break away.
But the problem with Balochistan is they have a forty
four percent land area of Pakistan but only five percent
of the population. So this skewed relationship, you know. So
therefore they tie up with the Pastuns makes a lot
of sense. Tie up with the GTP because jointly they

(41:46):
can do much more damage to the Pakistan Army and
the only thing keeping Pakistan together is the Pakistan Army.
You know, we can make forcibility do this. But for
twenty four years if a group has hit out against
the army and managed to retain their freedom of action.
And now it is getting more and more severe.

Speaker 2 (42:07):
The jaff for Express and I believe there's been a
second JAFF for Express incident. Well the details have not
apparently some derailing and some casualties, details are not there.

Speaker 3 (42:16):
Yeah, and they have coordinated actions all over b about
eighteen districts they hit simultaneously. Wow, you know, they are
now in a position to take control of towns. They
blocked the highway between Queta and Karachi check passengers, take
out the non blows, kill then kill the Jabs, and
not because they have Punjabis, but they are outsiders outside

(42:37):
of the I SIE agents still ask a simple question,
other Punjab Jata to work? It makes sense because it's
a prosperous area. This is not prosperous. Why would a
Punjabi come to Balochistan to work? We are poor, There
is nothing happening over here, so why are you coming
for work? You know? It makes sense. So I think

(42:59):
ultimately was going to have that BLOCHI attack. The twelve
co headquarters will take control of it for an hour
even whoa you know, then can you imagine the That's
one thing. The other thing is the strong civil society
movement that has started in this lady was there earlier,
because now the women say that not protesting is not
an option. All our men folk have gone, they have

(43:21):
been picked up, they've been tortured, they've been killed. So
if we don't protest, now, when are we going to protest?
So all the women are out despite being a conservative society.
And the other important thing that she makes you know,
a term called, a very tragic term called half widow
has come up in Bolo that a woman does not
know is she's a widow or she's married. Her husband

(43:43):
is missing for fifteen years? What is she she married?
Is she not married? So Merang Bolo said in an interview,
she said, look at this lady, how can you scare
her anymore? Her husband is missing for fifteen years. You
think she's worried or scared about anything. You took my
father away and Toto d even killed. Do it with
my brother? How can you scare me anymore? So this

(44:03):
fear has gone from the civil society in Bus like
it has among the pons.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
And this is when the Pakistan Mi has an obnoxious
track record. I've read that they've burnt ballucha's alive, dip
them in burning coal, tar through them from helicopters, and
all of this their human rights bodies have documented.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
And yet fighter people continue to fight.

Speaker 3 (44:27):
Because the next question of their dignity, their honor, their rights.
They realize that if they don't fight now, there will
be nothing left of Buluchistan for them. They'll be swamped
by them, by the Chinese, by the Pajavis, and there
will be nothing left the blow blows left. So that's
why they're fighting.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
So I made a statement from Molana Fazlu Rahman. In fact,
I think it was in their assembly. Also in the
National Assembly he said that there are seven or eight
districts I forget the exact number where the writ of
the Pakistanami does not prevail at all. And apparently that
number of flight has increased, so Pakistani does not.

Speaker 3 (44:59):
Even go into these and at nights they would draw.
That's why the blots are able to block highways, block roads.
They've taken a toll of towns Mustung and two three
days they're the ones patrolling the streets. The army is
just pulled out, not being able to control it.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
Now in a situation like this, like if I were
the Pakistan Army chief, God forbid, ever, he is being
killed from every side. Right, He's dying in the Pakistan
Army is being killed in Hyberpa, Pakistanmi is being killed
in Baluchistan. I'll just come to sin and their corner
plot project in Cholistan desert in two in a minute.

(45:39):
And there is trouble in Gilgit Baltistan and in Pakistan
occupied Jamun Kashmir. Why would he then think of terror
in India when he's dying on every flank.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
This is his only stable border.

Speaker 3 (45:50):
Because he feels you can unify the country.

Speaker 1 (45:52):
But can he in today's an So you know, in.

Speaker 3 (45:55):
The Army plays the narrative war very well. There are
one line is India is out to undo partition India
partition can be here, so that is a unifying thing.
Then the other slogan like in the san you know,
play upon people's emotions. That's why, you know, how does

(46:15):
it make sense not to trade with India. They're getting
everything from India ying three.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
Times the price.

Speaker 3 (46:23):
Yeah, so you know it's silly of them to do that.
So that's why this incident that you unify the army army,
you unify the people behind the army. Army suddenly becomes
a naturally shining armor. And one thing you have to
give it to them. Their narrative falls using fake videos,
but they're able to get it out quickly initial stages

(46:44):
of the conflict, and the Western media laps it up
because the anti India byas the Western media's laps it up.
So this is how they feel that through narratives they
can unite the country behind them.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
In the long run.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
And now let me come to Okay, let me just
quickly do two Rolistan and then I'll come to Indus Waters,
treat and operations, Sindhur and the Pehlgam terror attack. Assemoni
is seen as this radical Islamist who then makes all
these uh, you know, speeches anti India and all of that,
and then there is a terror attack in our country.
But before that he's also facing trouble in his own

(47:20):
country because he they want to make money. Pakistan AMI's
only reason to exist is hate India and make money
for themselves in the Cholistan desert. They want Indus water,
Indus waters to have six canals or eight canals. Six
they're working on and Sindris protesting. Now can they still
go ahead?

Speaker 1 (47:39):
Right now?

Speaker 2 (47:39):
That's a tactical retreat for the Pakistani, but we can
sind also erupt.

Speaker 3 (47:44):
Yes, you see the hair that the catch was that
Azari agreed to this proposal. He signed on to this
proposal despite being from from sinth when there was continuous
protestants sinth I still over three months.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
No Z wanted ten percent from this world.

Speaker 3 (48:00):
So then there's a realized that if we will lose,
because his constituency is in Is where so if they
start people start protesting and they stop, they will not
vote for us. We lose in Then he changed around
his mind and he said, Canny, we cannot have these canals.
It is a threat to the existence of Sin. The

(48:23):
army got very upset with them. Capeletum, you've signed on it.
Now suddenly you are backing out of it. And can
you imagine the water in some of these canals is
the surplus water that comes from the sublet if you
choke the suplog. What is what we're doing now to
make sure no water from the suplet goes into Pakistan?
What can exactly? But so the rest of the water

(48:46):
will come from the induants. They're going to put water
out on the Indus, put it in these canals on
the name of commercial agriculture. They're giving it to these
big companies to have commercial agriculture, all owned by Pakistan,
but giving them the water. So sin. You know, this
is I think about one point two million nectares acres,

(49:07):
but six million acres of sin will get barren just
to AA is one point two million. It doesn't make sense.
It is a heayway and scream. But the General SA
is signed on to it. Because he's been sold the
idea of green agriculture and you know that you can
desert co op about the way and things like that.

(49:27):
Very foolish thing. But now it has been on hold
for artipility. They will revive with the army and some
of the other ram its way through No.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
But if they want to revive it with Indus water
street in a bayans and so as of now, India's
only not sharing data because you can't hold the water.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
Hold the water.

Speaker 2 (49:44):
You can harness the entire water of you know, uh
the Eastern was like Satravi Baas we can harness entirely
China Jaalam.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
And Indus uh Indus in Ladak.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
I don't know how much water can you divert or
do beyond run of the river dam. But whatever other
it was, we can harness and we bring it. That
would make Pakistan the abrogating the treaty.

Speaker 3 (50:08):
Right now the treaty has been held only in abeyance.
So the first priority I think of the government is
trying to do to make sure no water from the
Ravi and the Sutluj correct which are going into Pakistan.
So what three million acre feet of water from the
is leaking correct or seeping into Pakistan. RAVI has been stopped.
I think by this sharp this has been stopped. But Satloji,

(50:30):
you need to stop. That is the first priority. Secondary
you mentioned we're not sharing data, so Pakistanis don't know
how much water is going to be released today. If
you hold it for four days and then relieve it
in the rush, they can't do much about it because
you know, agriculture requires consistency. You need to know how
much water is coming in every day. So that is

(50:51):
what is disrupting their agriculture. But if you start taking
water from the Chinnam for example, is there's a proposal
to increase the lenses and canal or to take it
from the v and all the way down to Rajastan,
that will then impact on their agriculture.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
Because if they were and your appreciation of the capabilities
of the army post operations, what is your appreciation?

Speaker 1 (51:16):
So this was more in air operation, artillery operation.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
Missiles were used, technology was used, but armies were not
committed per se beyond l C.

Speaker 3 (51:25):
So they had mobilized their armies. You know, they had
shifted troops from Queta and Power.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
But if they moved troops from Queta and beyond a
point Queta. There will be trouble in Peshawar, and there
will be trouble.

Speaker 3 (51:38):
In Queta, absolutely, but there was no land engagement on
the land borders. But I think that at the moment
they were trying to replenish, you know, the missiles, the drones,
all that was destroyed, repair the airfields, the command control
system at nur Khan base and other places. They would
be running around, you know, desperately. So apparently before SIN

(52:00):
or two point zero gets activated again. True, true, So
that's what they are.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
Because I want to understand the situation. Is Pakistan in.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
A position to fight India, given it's in trouble in
in Baluchistan, given the trouble it's facing in hyper Paa,
given our relations with the Taliban in Afghanistan? You know,
does he have enough troops on ground to fight us?

Speaker 1 (52:24):
Does he have? I believe it's not been said officially.
I believe we've targeted.

Speaker 2 (52:28):
Some of his ammunition dumps in some of his missiles,
which is I'm told in that information. I don't know
how much of that information is in public domain, but
how much of all that he has right now?

Speaker 1 (52:39):
His command control was destroyed a lot of his drones.
He may have drones, but he does not have command
in control. Eleven airfields.

Speaker 2 (52:46):
I'm sure if our Brahmas can destroy eleven airfields in
one go when when not even at war, I'm sure
if there is excavation, we can destroy all eighteen.

Speaker 3 (52:55):
So they said eight.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
Yeah, we are claiming eleven. They say eighty.

Speaker 3 (53:00):
So somebody who was making money somewhere amazing.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
Pakistan army is evil to the core and pakistanis don't
realize this, but tell me this. Are they in a
position to fight war with us?

Speaker 3 (53:15):
They were never in a position to fight war right
from sixty five one words. It is only when the US.

Speaker 1 (53:20):
Pre sixty five, given the patent tags.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
Given the patent tags, given the saber jets and boosted
their confidence. After that Chinese repestarted coming in eighty one
percent of their weaponry. Now China threaten to give the
f thirty five thirty five you know, so this is
only because of what others give them, leveraging their geographical position. Otherwise,
Pakistan is no pradition, no position to fight with India, you.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
Know, because I've had I have a bone to pick
with our entire political leadership for decades that permitted Pakistan
to punch far above its weight.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
I mean, it's like a tiny country. It's like a
third rate country.

Speaker 2 (53:58):
And we permit Pakistan to talk to US as equals,
which they aren't clearly.

Speaker 3 (54:03):
And plus they have no imagination and long range Yeah,
they have a strategic thinking. Is tactical getting the first blow? Yeah,
China usak Yeah, I don't know what the compulsures of
our This thing very is a funny story. Half of

(54:24):
the sixty five war. Pakistani delegation went to China in
nineteen sixty six to the shopping list last day the
meeting of the join line. So he said, yeah, we'll
give you whatever you want. Is it just one question?
I want to know on what basis have you worked
out ammunition for only fourteen days? So the Pakistani general said,
because after fourteen days, the Security Council will step in

(54:46):
ask for us for ceasefire and we'll both pull back.
I said, if you know what the result of the
war is going to be, why are you fighting? If
you know that after fourteen days, then we cease fire.
The blood you're wasting, economic resources, you're wasting. Pakistani general
didn't have an answer. True, So again tactical thinking. They
know this is what is going to happen, then why

(55:06):
are you fighting?

Speaker 1 (55:07):
Like Bush knew how he could get in, he didn't
know how to get out.

Speaker 3 (55:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
Or they never factored in that India would use artillery
and air park.

Speaker 3 (55:14):
Yeah, and this is what we didn't think that India
would react in such a ferocious manner. Lash looked at him,
he said, are you a general of what?

Speaker 1 (55:23):
No? But is Asimu the same?

Speaker 2 (55:25):
You know, because I when I look at all their
military campaigns in the past, Tactically they may be brilliant.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
Strategically there are disaster for Pakistan.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
I mean even twenty six eleven terror attacks, disaster for Pakistan.
I mean, kiss who will talk to an accept our
leadership does sadly?

Speaker 1 (55:45):
It did sadly.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
But now post your reading of what the Narindromodi government
has been able to achieve through operations.

Speaker 3 (55:54):
I think a lot. And the message that has gone
across you see Muri and Balacote were messages, tactical messages
that don't messages don't do it, just a strategic message
because we've hit the headquarters, the snake pits, you know,
the We've taken out nine terror facilities. We've hit them

(56:17):
in eleven airfields, they've taken out their air defense and
they knew very well that if they hadn't pleated and
got on their knees on tenth morning, by tenth night,
Karachi would have been up in flames. The Indian Navy
was waiting, I mean beyond my pay grade. So the

(56:38):
message has certainly gone home.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
Satisfaction will ja. You know, they've they've killed so many
of us in decades.

Speaker 3 (56:48):
I think, I mean, I can only I can't second
guess the government, but I think what the government was
trying to do is send a message also to the
world that, look, our objective was limited to terror facilities
because we were countering the terror strike Pelgram. So we
hit all only the terror on the first day. It
is when Pakistan reacted by hitting our civilian targets and

(57:10):
our military targets, then we went in and gave them
a decisive blow.

Speaker 1 (57:13):
Very sensible.

Speaker 3 (57:14):
Yeah, so the world is appreciated that. You know, when
they said n and ninety countries have supported you, they
supported you because you did this. You said we are
going against terror, and you went only against terror. If
on the first day you had just taken out the
air offense targets, then everybody would have said, you are
you were planning a war. This is not only terror.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
You used pearl gum in an excuse to hit hit
them militarily.

Speaker 1 (57:38):
So that was a sensible decision.

Speaker 3 (57:41):
Yeah, And to call the seasfire on the tenth when
Pakistan asked for it, you agreed. People say we should
have gone and taken Poka if you should have done this.
You could have done that, sure you could have. But
what was your objective to lutch the APKA which had
been laid down on the first CCS meeting. And I
think even in the debates, a manrite very clear that

(58:04):
the Defense minister manrite very clear that what was your objective?
You achieved that objective, and when they pleaded for cease
fire or stoppage of fighting, you agree to that because
the objectives had been met.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
So we're an.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
Honorable country and we we have that honor code that
you pleaded with us.

Speaker 1 (58:20):
So we have accepted now.

Speaker 3 (58:21):
And you also made it clear that if you not
try something, if you go up there scalatory rider, then
be prepared to get hit severely. And this is what
we did so.

Speaker 1 (58:30):
Now that fear is in Pakistania pele Hamarim.

Speaker 2 (58:32):
And because you know, when I started covering defense and
even when Cargil War happened, when we used to ask
why isn't the air force hitting across? Watch you you
will not air force across LC and not hit across.
Then they said you're ba Pakistan and nuclear weapon, that
nuclear bluff with Balacote.

Speaker 1 (58:54):
And now with this has been called out.

Speaker 3 (58:56):
Completely, absolutely absolutely because what happened to bomb you know,
which you said you will use if ever we are settled.
They've said that if you stop for water, we'll use
this wracktive war and things you do it.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
But that would make am look really silly.

Speaker 2 (59:15):
I mean right now, in my view, he may be
the Army chief of Pakistan or a failed marshal, but
basically he's a man who has no honor. He's a
man who lost the war. He may have dined at
White House, but that's because he's being used. He's like
a Durban for the Americans for.

Speaker 1 (59:33):
For Iran, for Iran operations. So it's not a it's
not a relationship of.

Speaker 3 (59:37):
Equals, not at all.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
They're going to China begging for weapons so it's like.

Speaker 3 (59:42):
China, he's got you know, yeah, absolutely, Okay, what are
you doing In the back of the mind the Chinese
are not so large hearted America. Then you come to
us also, you at some stage will have to make
up your mind what you want to do. And then
what about the security of our people? To allow our
army to come in? You allow us? Will they have

(01:00:04):
to They've been pressing on Pakistan that if you want
to protect the people, will send around people to protect.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
But their own army ran away in Congo and they
needed protection of the Indian army in the UN mission.

Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
Is what I was told by own army friends.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
They will liver admitted. Now they will say tell pakist Parkis,
we will send our troops disguised as contractors or whatever,
but you allow us to station them in guadal Is.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
The China Pakistan Economic Corridor a viable project even today?

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
Or is it?

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):
Is it platted out some years ago? Platted out? Initially,
the investment was claimed that it will be sixty two
billion dollars. It speaked at about twenty to twenty four.
No further Chinese money is coming in because they're not
getting the rate of it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
They're not getting any returns.

Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
They're not getting a return.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
But were they doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
For financial returns or what? They're only doing it for
access to the Arabian Sea and that.

Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
Chinese they never do anything free, even if the strategy
access was there. They want the return on the money.
Chinese banks are saying, you know what you would as
there is the Chinese banks are over extended internally, there's
so much of property has been built up in things,
so they are over extended. They don't want further you know,
losses on this so wally objective is strategic, especially for

(01:01:13):
gathera and gather afield. There is also an economic content
as for Chinese were concerned.

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
So will Pakistan now have to either choose either to
sail in the American boat or to sail in the
Chinese boat or they can continue sailing into boats.

Speaker 3 (01:01:28):
They will continue sailing in there in two boats. They
have a tremendous amount of practice. They've done it all
the time. You see in the War on Terror, they
were supporting the Taliban, helping them recoup plan more the
actual be and.

Speaker 1 (01:01:41):
Getting money from America, getting money from America, so helping
them in.

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
The War of Terror. Yeah, so they were playing both sides,
and even in this uh Nurkhan base, their reports are
even Chinese acids for.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
Their Yeah, you know, apparently they are there, the Americans
and Chinese boat at the same time.

Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
Yeah, truly, truly.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
Now, when we look at the situation, Sir, in your appreciation, militarily,
they're degraded. Politically, they're in trouble socially, economically, where do
they stand?

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
I mean they're living from Kata to Katura to Katura.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
But IMF is also giving them a bailout. ADB is
also giving them a grant. They're getting money from other
countries also, but.

Speaker 3 (01:02:25):
You know this is how will they repay a lot
of these are the IMF has to recover their money
given previously. This is twenty fourth bailout. Yeah, so the
money even earlier. How do they get it back? They
have to give Pakistan more money for them to increase
improve their economy so they can get some of their own.
You see, Ultimately, what happens in any relationship, a creditor

(01:02:46):
gets sucked in by the data to be able to
recover his money, and nobody wants that, you know, a
nation of forty million to.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
Collapse to become a nuclear Somalia. Yeah, I believe you
said this somewhere. Rather they they shouldn't become a nucleus Turmalia.

Speaker 3 (01:03:01):
And as it is, Pakistan today is bankrupt. You know,
if China, Saudi Away Yui pulled out their money from
the State Bank of Pakistan. Pakistan does not have its
own foreign exchange reserves because it is consuming more than
it produces, which means it needs to buy and for
that you need foreign exchange. Their exports are not too healthy.

(01:03:25):
The only bright spark in Pakistan is the remittances from
the people who are abroad. But that also can sustain
you for a while, not indefinitely.

Speaker 1 (01:03:33):
And yet they want to buy weapons, and yet they're being.

Speaker 3 (01:03:36):
Given weapons they will always buy.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
So basically, whether America gives them weapons or China gives
them weapons, they're giving them those weapons to keep India
in check.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
That's the message.

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
Yeah, and Pakistan feels that so long as it has
some ability to fight, they're okay. The army is not
impacted by economic crisis.

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
Their budget has gone up, their salaries are going up,
Their ministers.

Speaker 3 (01:03:59):
The comfortably off.

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
At least those are reports that come from the Pakistani media.
So but but that that's the country that that will
never see a revolution.

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
But ham thing is only happening in cocktail parties singing yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:18):
These There are in three occasions where the people have
tested yub Khan. That was a student protest movement for
a traditional democracy Asia to the pope protested the sin
and the third was the lawyer's movement. In Pakistan, they
have don't have a tradition of protesting on economic issues.
The price rise, electricity prices going up, they don't have

(01:04:40):
money for to send their children to school. That has
not happened because the informal support systems are still strong,
you know rai system. Somebody who's working on a farm,
the landlord a lot of thousand acres, he will make
sure that subcapa so they don't.

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
So Pakistan claims Kashmir is the core dispute. Now, if
we were to talk about Pakistan occupied Jamu and Kashmir,
including Gilgit and Baltistan, so Pakistan may call it it's
northern areas, it's part of the erstwhile state of Jamu
and Kashmir. What's the actual condition of people in Pojk
and in Gilged Baltistan.

Speaker 3 (01:05:20):
You think Gilgit Baltistan is a very strange constitutional arrangements
that they're not part of Pakistan. Legally, no way does
it say that gilged Baltistan is a part of Pakistan.
The Supreme Court has issued judgments of this that some
of the others make it part of this. But the
reason Pakistan has not done because they know that if
they change the status of Gilgit Baltistan, they'll be violating

(01:05:42):
the UNCIP resolutions. And if they do that, their links
with j and K break. They have nothing, They have
no position of standing in jank. The first thing that
they had with j ANDK was the stantial agreement which
they broke in October. Then if they break the un
CIP resolutions also, so then there is no legal link

(01:06:02):
with the JAK That's why they have not done it.
So China has pressed them. They look, the corridor passes
through Gilgen Baltistan, there is so much of investment being done.
You better make sure that this territory doesn't go into India.
But they've examined their set up three committees who went
into the legal issues of this, but they all deciety
is status go and though so their position is very indeterminate.

(01:06:24):
People both in Eojkojk and Guilia, Batistan realize that if
they were a part of Kashmir, they would be much
better off. When they see the situation in Kashmir in
terms of the medical, terms of infrastructure, in terms of education,
the future of the children would be far superior to
what it is now. And they see no hope of

(01:06:45):
it ever improving because the way Pakistan is going and
the Pakistan conditions economic conditions are so poor that they
will get nothing. If the other provinces are getting nothing,
what is going to come to them left overs? Then
even let the royalty from the mang La Dam which
is supposed to go to Poka, all the electricity goes
to Punjab, you know, they get nothing.

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):
And I believe they will protest there sometime back because
there are no electricity. Yeah, there's no you know, there
was no food and there was a comparison between what's
happening in Jamu, Kashmir here and in pok there.

Speaker 3 (01:07:20):
So the only the problem is that the protests are
taking place, but they are not covered. They don't get
the kind of mainstream coverage in Pakistan and in India
or even the rest of the world, which why don't.

Speaker 2 (01:07:32):
Why don't Indian political leadership, you know, leaders raise this
issue for example, Chief Minister Omar Abdullah Orti or other
political leaders in Jamu and Kashmir after they should be
raising That's.

Speaker 3 (01:07:46):
A very good question. I don't know the answer. I
think they should be, you know, told that. You know
today as it is, there is huge amount of flooding
which has taking place in Gilgil Pakistan. I don't know
how many people have died, but a lot of loss
of property, a lot of flooding in Gilgil Baltistan. I
haven't seen a word coming out from any of the
mainstream political parties in either yeah that you know what

(01:08:09):
is happening over there and what is the kind of
resistance that should be given. So it's a good question
why don't Indian politicians in kashmirir talk about these issues
off the other side?

Speaker 1 (01:08:19):
That's point one. Point two.

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
I've had some reports from there, and I always make
it a point that I put out these reports on
India first whenever possible. Those people sometimes say they want
to be a part of India. Do you think they
can be a part of India?

Speaker 3 (01:08:33):
You see, any government of India has no option but
to accept it because there's a unanimous resolution of Parliament
in nineteen ninety four we stayed in the entire princely
state of jambo In. Krishmia as it existed in nineteen
forty seven is a part and parcel of India. So
every government of India has to have this as its objectives.
To get to that objective, a cuttle preparatory work has

(01:08:56):
to be done, and I think this is important. I
was in government and I felt this was a handicap
that we have. You mentioned about understanding Pakistan, understanding po
Jk and Gilged Baltistan. Se if we don't know what languages,
for example, are spoken in Gilgate Baltistan. If I were
to ask somebody, where is Shea spoken? Where is Bush's

(01:09:17):
Ski spoken? Where is Carver spoken? What are the district
What are the district headquarters? What is the religious composition
of a district and b district? Where are the Smileys,
Where are the Shi? Where are the Sundis?

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
In fact, they change demographic profile right after nineteen forty seven,
getting all the Sunnis into a Shia dominated area.

Speaker 3 (01:09:34):
Yeah, so you know you need to know these basic
facts and know them. Not in academic environment but the
army area of responsibility, whover is there, whether it is
the IB, whether it is the r n AW, where's
the Ministry of Home Affairs, Ministry of External Affairs, across
the board in GUI, different agencies must have this information.

(01:09:58):
You must have interpreters, people who can speak Shina, people
who can Speakuri. You know from the government, so that
in any case of a situation where you come what
you had mentioned, you're prepared for it. Today you may
not be in a position to know. And then you
do certain basic facts the people on the other side.

(01:10:18):
It's not only the abbat which everybody says, which of
other regiment is there? The retired people you know, there
are two tribes there and the southerns they're like the Dogras.
They're all armed. So you have a large hundreds of thousands,
not hundreds, at least thousands, tens of thousands of people
were armed on the other side, so you have to

(01:10:39):
know where they are, so that in case of any
conflict you're not just faced with one division. You would
be faced with side divisions. And what I want to
say is stressing that information you prepare yourself on.

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
Knowledge base has to be very extensive, which which I'm.

Speaker 3 (01:10:57):
Sure it's already there, but probably for people who are
going to be actually operating on the ground, you need
to have this kind.

Speaker 2 (01:11:05):
Of sincerely hope in our lifetime we see you know,
Gilgate and Baltistan as part of India and Muzafarabad back
being in India, and that is perhaps that the biggest
thing that could happen in this part. But you know,
when you look at the tragedy that's happening in this region,
so a part of the tragedy is also the way

(01:11:25):
Pakistan that may claim that, you know, the haharmken Numper
was in the name of religion, they got a separate country,
but in the name of religion, they're also exploiting the
same Muslims of Afghanistan living in the country for so
many decades of you know, ever since that war against
the Soviets happened in that area, and how they've been treated.

Speaker 3 (01:11:46):
Now, Actually afghan is really in a very i think
sitting on the edge of a volcano because not only
in Pakistan from Iran. In Iran, the feeling media starting
propagating in even the government that the Israeli attack that
these Afghans are all Israel spies. So after the Israel

(01:12:08):
Iran War, about half a million, half a million Afghan
refugees have been pushed.

Speaker 1 (01:12:13):
Out five lacks of big numbers.

Speaker 3 (01:12:16):
And in the case of many Afghan women, they are
standard of the border because they can't travel. A woman
can't travel alone in a Vanistan, so without a male
to escort them, they are standards. They don't they have
nobody to go. If they are let's it from central Afghanistan,
where do they go? How do they go? Similarity, Pakistan
first started pushing about in twenty twenty three in the

(01:12:38):
hope of pressurizing the Taliban to accept act the case
no act against the GTP, that we'll send them out.
So the first I think in twenty twenty three they
set out about seven ondred thousand. Now they're filling out
people with who've got Afghan cards proof of residents again
about almost close to eight and tred thousand to a million.

(01:12:59):
So you take this, you take what Iran is doing.
About two million people are going to arrive in Afghanistan
and the Afrhan government is running. How do you take
care of these people? But then it's not only Afghanistan
and not only Iran in Pakistan the US. In the
US a temporary protection scheme that has been done away

(01:13:21):
with by the president and the court has upheld that.
So large number of people are now fear of being deported.

Speaker 1 (01:13:30):
Those who helped the Americans against the Taliban.

Speaker 3 (01:13:32):
Yeah, and those who were getting resettled, but forty thousand
of them in Pakistan are also going to be pushed
back into Aghanistan. They're in the UK. In the UK
again this has been kept under wraps, but the names
of one hundred thousand people. Somebody who was trying to
verify or wet the thirty three thousand applications were there
and indvertently sent out an email and that email has

(01:13:54):
reached the Taliban, so they about all the names, family addresses,
everything off, those who are head of one hundred thousand people, Yeah,
including family members of one hundred thousand. So secretly the
Britain has got back about sixteen thousand of them, you know,
for resettlement. What happens to the rest they're hiding and
the Taliban and looking for the goodness, So you know,

(01:14:15):
from all around the poor of garden refugees and the
Afghans are really getting into the neck. UK US Iran Pakistan. Yeah,
Iran Pakistan. So you know it's a double triple quardruple
uh for that area. And it's the humanitarian prices staring
us in the face. This is what the UN agencies
are saying.

Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
Yeah, it indeed is.

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
Though our relationship with Taliban seemed to be on a mend. Yeah,
but that humanitarian assistance.

Speaker 3 (01:14:44):
Yeah, and I think we've done very well in humanitarian
systems sending whether it's sending beat. I'm sure they've asked
for you and asked, so I'm sure we will send
it again. Taliban are very keen to re establish but
you know, India will not break the international consensus ignition
and setting up missions. So we were interests of office
of interest. But I don't see us taking the lead

(01:15:06):
like what Russia has done by exchanging ambassadors. I don't
see that happening. But we will certainly be keeping You know,
there were the very old saying in India that he
who wants to be improved hin the san must first
control tubble. All invasions into India came from and table.
The British were the only one absolutely from the sea.

(01:15:28):
So he who wants to be emperor hin the Sun
must first control trouble. That's relationship is must be very
strong with double.

Speaker 1 (01:15:38):
And that I completely agree with. In fact, all our
entire border belt has.

Speaker 3 (01:15:42):
To be a question of control in terms of invasions.
But terrorism, you know, ungoverned spaces there will breed. Terrorists
will then come and attack you.

Speaker 2 (01:15:52):
That's a very interesting point to make, sir. So that's
the way Pakistan.

Speaker 3 (01:15:56):
Will keep moving forward.

Speaker 2 (01:15:57):
India's strategy is correct that we're not engaging with them
at the same time, we're keeping an eye on them,
but we're also planning to play multilateral cricket with them.

Speaker 1 (01:16:05):
You know, I also want to raise that issue with you.

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):
As somebody who knows the DNA of Pakistan, will playing
cricket with Pakistan help improve ties with that country?

Speaker 3 (01:16:17):
Way they'll see the sign of weakness even.

Speaker 1 (01:16:20):
If it's multilaterally. Yah, it comes over Hindu a you know.

Speaker 3 (01:16:26):
Also, I mean I feel at a time, you know,
in the wake of Pahlgam, why are you playing cricket?
What is the signal that you're giving out? Maybe multi
multilateral concede the match if you have to participate, concede
the match, but why play with them? So not a signal.
You know, you have stopped the water, you've stopped trade,
you've stopped visas, you've closed the border, you've pulled out

(01:16:49):
staff from the missions, but yet you want to play cricket.
I mean, this is my personal view and I'm not sure.
I mean, whatever decision government takes.

Speaker 2 (01:16:58):
I heard the Oasis say it in the Parliament and
he spoke from the heart.

Speaker 1 (01:17:02):
It seems, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:17:04):
But then there are those who will say, how if okay, fine,
you may pull out of cricket, but will you pull
out of Asian games?

Speaker 1 (01:17:11):
Will you pull out of Olympic Games?

Speaker 2 (01:17:12):
Even though the Soviet block pulled out of Los Angeles
Games and the Western Bloc pulled out of the Moscow Olympics.

Speaker 3 (01:17:17):
No, but why should you pull out of the game?
If it worse comes to worse, you concede, you don't
play that match, conceider match. But why should you pull
out of multiatle games? Just because of the presidences of Pakistan?

Speaker 2 (01:17:28):
And if you're strong and I see, we should try
and show that they are out of if South Africa
could be bad.

Speaker 3 (01:17:34):
So in the last World Cup we made sure that
the matches and we're not played in Pakistan. We played
the matches elsewhere. Yeah, and they had to agree to that. No.

Speaker 2 (01:17:42):
But now unfortunately we've also agreed to play when India
is the host.

Speaker 1 (01:17:45):
We have agreed to play a Sha Cup in Dubai
in Uey.

Speaker 3 (01:17:49):
But I somehow feel that we should not be playing
cricket with Pakistan for a long time to come till
they actually abjur Credibly, there is and violence, I guess.

Speaker 2 (01:17:59):
Because Pakistan continues to support half his, say than mass her.

Speaker 3 (01:18:02):
Absolutely, and recently there was the reports I think it
was today was spotted in p Okay, Yes, yes, you know,
and says he's in Afghanistan. What are they saying?

Speaker 2 (01:18:14):
And actually speaks the language of half a say th
same same water, same water and blood and all that.

Speaker 1 (01:18:23):
We don't understand Pakistan's DNA.

Speaker 2 (01:18:26):
I mean, I really want to know, not the current
political leadership, but our civil society, our governments in the past.

Speaker 3 (01:18:33):
See. I think as a as a nation, we sincerely
believe in peace and living in as friends with our neighbors,
we sincerely want them to behave in a better manner.
But you know, not realizing the kind of beast you're
faced with.

Speaker 1 (01:18:48):
Yeah, understand the nature of the beast and deal accordingly
is what was said.

Speaker 2 (01:18:54):
That deal with the enemy the way the enemy would
deal with you, and and hands syndrome. Don't don't forgive
Mohammed Gourri, because next time he will come and sort
you out.

Speaker 3 (01:19:05):
And we should learn from a history, because if tables
are reversed, they will do far worse to you. True,
today they're in a weaker position, so they're not able
to but the minute thing becomes strong, hopefully not but
the business strong, they will do to you what you
were in a position to say, but you didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:19:23):
I will let that be the last word on this
part of the show. A word of caution from you,
someone who understands Pakistan so well. Thank you very much,
great conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:19:32):
Conversation, Thank you so much for calling me.

Speaker 2 (01:19:35):
Thank you very much for being here, sir, and I
hope that this is a message that we Baratvasis carry
in general.

Speaker 1 (01:19:43):
Understand the nature of your enemy. Understand the way.

Speaker 2 (01:19:48):
He wants to bleed you, that he's bled you constantly
and would continue to bleed you.

Speaker 1 (01:19:53):
If you are stronger, then you are safer. Remain strong,
ensure that your enemy is weak. That's the only way.
As some angelists have.

Speaker 2 (01:20:02):
Argued in the past it shouldn't be just an eye
for an eye, it should be both his eyes for
an eye and his entire Joe for a tooth. Perhaps
that's the only way to keep India safe and India first.
Many thanks for watching, Keep watching India Today and follow
us the Chuck Review podcast on India Today.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Pakistan on the Brink: Asim Munir’s Power Grab & Balochistan’s Fight for Freedom | Chakravyuh | Ep 07