Charged Conversations - BrightGen and BrightLoop Hydrogen Technologies

In this episode of Charge Conversations, Brigham McCown has the distinct pleasure of sitting down with Distinguished Professor of Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering LS Fan from The Ohio State University and Brandy Johnson the Chief Technology Officer at Babcock & Wilcox.

Professor Fan discusses his process of chemical looping.

Brandy Johnson talks about how Babcock and Wilcox is using the chemical looping technology and putting it to everyday use.

____________________________________________________________

L.-S. Fan is Distinguished University Professor and C. John Easton Professor in Engineering in the Department of Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering at The Ohio State University. He has been on the faculty of Chemical Engineering at Ohio State since 1978 and served as Department Chair from 1994 – 2003. Professor Fan received his B.S. (1970) from National Taiwan University, and his M.S. (1973) and Ph.D. (1975) from West Virginia University, all in Chemical Engineering. In addition, he earned an M.S. (1978) in Statistics from Kansas State University.

_____________________________________________________________

Brandy Johnson is Chief Technology Officer, responsible for the development of B&W’s ClimateBright™ suite of decarbonization and hydrogen production technologies, including the deployment, scale-up and commercialization activities of its BrightLoop™ novel hydrogen
 generation technology.

https://www.babcock.com/

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to another episode of Charged Conversations. I'm your host, Brigham McCown.
We talked a lot about the prosand cons of hypercarbons and various forms of
renewable energies on the program, buttoday I'm very excited to welcome to very

(00:23):
distinguished guests, doctor LS Fan andBrandy Johnson. Doctor Fan is the C.
Johnson Easton Professor of Engineering. DoctorFan is also a member of the
National Academy of Engineering or Sciences ineight separate countries, including the United States,
and a professor of chemical engineering.Did I get that right? Chemical

(00:46):
and biomolecular engineering. We had thechance to meet about I don't know,
six months ago or so at yourfacilities there at Ohio State. I should
also say it he's been the facultyof Chemical Engineering at Ohio State since nineteen
seventy eight. You've previously served asthe department chair, and you experience in

(01:10):
particle science and technology, multi phaseengineering I'm sorry, multiphase reaction engineering,
energy and environmental systems. You're aninventor of a number of industrial viable,
clean fossil fuel conversion processes, andthat's what we're going to get into in
the program. Joining him today withme is Brandy Johnson, who serves as

(01:36):
the chief Technology Officer at Babcock andWilcox and is a member of the firm's
management team. Welcome Brandy, thankyou glad to be here. And for
additional background, you're responsible for abnw's Climate Right suite of decarbonization and hydrogen
production technologies, including deployment and scaleup and commercialization activities of the Bright Loop

(02:01):
novel hydrogen generation technologies. Not tobe out done, you've also been the
vice president of Global Engineering, avice president of Global Projects, global project
development director, directors supply management,and several other aspects. And Brandy,
one of the things I'm most excitedabout is you attended university and two of

(02:23):
my favorite states, Texas and Ohio. So well, let's be very clear.
I went to Texas A and MUniversity, the best university in Texas,
of course, and I got mymaster's at Kent State excellent. So
you're officially an Aggie. I aman Aggie. Yes, oh right.

(02:45):
It's exciting to have you both withme today, and I think for our
listeners, we're very fortunate to haveyou both because while oftentimes we hear the
debates going back and forth between youknow which one is better Texas A and
M or University of Texas. Theanswer is maybe slightly different. And we're

(03:06):
talking, of course, is inthe energy construct renewables versus hydrocarbons. And
you know, one of the thingsI've been most impressed with as I first
met doctor Fan is the research hehas been doing over many decades of trying
to break down and figure out howto reduce emissions from energies that we use

(03:32):
each and every day. And Icertainly know over at Babcock and Wilcox,
so at BMW, let me saythat because it's much less of a tongue
twister than your whole company name.You all have been in the innovation business
for I think about one hundred andfifty seven years or somewhere right around there.
Right, that is accurate? Yes, great, well, so,

(03:55):
doctor Fan, can you explain tous the research and the breakthroughs that you've
had in reducing emissions from fossil fuelbased products, and then we'll get into
how it's much larger than that,and how what you've been doing can be

(04:18):
used for a whole host of feedstuckand sources. Yes, this technology is
called a chemical looping technology. Ithas in our prior histories actually starting as
early as eighteen ninety seven, socalled a recommend process and that set up

(04:39):
with the REDOCS approaches and to producethe chemicals, and then later on hydrogen
was produced through the land process inthe nineteen tenth. So the kind of
concept which we talk about it andas applied to today's energy has in the

(05:00):
rear the lines and only that hasbeen so long and technology with this concept
has not been able to be commercialized. And that we are able with the
team that Ohigher State and make ithappen. And at least that demonstrated at
the pidlet plane in both the UHyou know, the conversion to hydrogen as

(05:21):
well as the power UH and inthe contest of also CEO to capture and
expediously. And so that makes thistechnology particularly timely and a for the today's
the combination world. And we haveb in W with us today because Ohio

(05:42):
State and doctor Fan you have partneredwith bing W to license the technology.
So, Brandy, what does thatmean for commercialization or industrial uses? Yeah,
So what that means is that weget to take the technology that doctor
Fann and his team have helped incubateand done the science behind and then we

(06:04):
are working on scaling it up withtheir help of course, so we have
our own team of engineers, andlike you said, we've spent one hundred
and fifty some years in innovation.Our whole foundation is based on continuing to
improve technology over the years whatever itwas we were searching for, and so

(06:25):
that's what we are doing, iswe're working on scaling this technology up to
scale and bringing in all of ourexperience and expertise in things we need to
consider as we scale up this technologyand working then with the science and the
base engineering that the doctor Fan andhis team have developed. So it's really

(06:46):
a great partnership between academia and inindustry to help get some of this technology
that's started in the universities and getit deployed globally. And doctor Fan,
which she's describing, you've been workingon Do I have this right? Three
decades? Thirty plus years? Isthat right? Right? For this statigo

(07:08):
technology? In fact that in general, the kind of the modi face reaction
engine area is applied to this currenttechnology started more than forty five years ago.
So I was very lucky at ourstate be able to work with very
talented for group of students to promoteand inventive for some of the things which

(07:29):
we are able to apply today.Yeah, and I've seen your firsthand in
the lab with your students, andI know how lucky they are to have
you and to be able to studyunder you. You know, you mentioned
the fact that some of these earlyversions of this technology you're even much older.
So why are we only not onlyhearing about it right now? But

(07:51):
what has transpired during your research thathas really turned this principle into something that
is commercially deployable And we should sayit hasn't been commercially deployed yet, but
there are we're ramping up right throughdifferent sized projects to get to something that's

(08:13):
commercially scalable by before the end ofthe decade. Well, this is a
very important question. It can aboutis because of the climate change. This
is a very important concern of theworld. If we do not control the
carbon emissions, and then pretty soonyou can realize it, the temperature of

(08:37):
the Earth will increase and through theCO two concentration increase. Now is more
than four hundred and twenty PPM andpreviously our research objective. You're not pretty
much on the flud gas cleaning andCO is one of the major fossil fuel
generates the energy. And while verylucky with the top the coal technology company

(09:03):
dot com WORLDCOX and located in thestate of Ohio. And then early on
my career, we have been workingso closely and then removed some of the
pollutants and flue gas coming from theCO combustion. And you have an s
O two Knox and have it heavymetal and so forth. They're just more
than thirty years ago, we decidedand perhaps CO two is something we have

(09:26):
to control as well. Before thiswhole climate change, the combonization came about,
and we're already looking at this problem. That's why we are very fortunate
and with enough time and before thishas become a major the world and issues
and we are sort ahead of thetimes. And I have the technology ready

(09:46):
and UH, and then we arevery optimistic pretty soon something you know,
commercialized will be realized for our listeners. I'm looking at UH, I'm looking
at a chart here U which showsme or a graphic that says that you
can take different feedstocks, right,it can be biomass, biogas, natural

(10:07):
gas, coal, petroleum coke,and when it's fed through the bright loop
technology, the output steam hydrogen andsin gas. Do I have that right
so far? Yes? Yes,okay. And then from that we're using
this process for industrial heat, forpower generation, to produce and to produce

(10:31):
hydrogen, methanol or various fuels.And by doing this you're also capturing or
eliminating what percent of CO two wewill be under mid eight because you know
significant using this particular chemical grouping technology. So the principle if I can illustrate

(10:52):
a little bit in the traditional wayusing molecular oxygen for air separation. Air
has nitrogen in it and you haveto separate it in a separation you know,
skin itself. It causes energy.But this particular process using oxygen coming
from the metal oxide and a metaloxide, it doesn't contain nitrogen and it

(11:18):
doesn't contain the carbon there so metaloxide and finding a way and to react
with the fee stocks. It couldbe biomass you mentioned, could be natural
gas, and then came out witha product which mostly amendi our COEO to
H two hole and you can easilycontense H two O which is steam and

(11:39):
then get the carbon dioxide there,and so you don't have to go through
the expensive separation scheme like you do. You know, you know from the
co combussion through gas and today Imean techniques, our membrane techniques and other
techniques and people consider using, butthis particular scheme can avoid using those additional

(12:00):
separation scheme that make this process veryeconomically attractive. So really it's when it's
all put together, right, we'recapturing ninety five plus percent. The only
CO two that gets lost is stuffthat gets lost through little pieces of the
of the cycle, right, Soit's we're capturing all of it. And

(12:20):
then as you go through compression andthings, there's a little bit that leaks
out here and there, but it'svery minimal, so that we're capturing ninety
five plus percent of the CO two. Yeah, I don't think that can
be understated. Right, You areliterally removing ninety five percent of the CO
two that under traditional methods would mostlikely be vented into the atmosphere historically has

(12:45):
been vented into the atmosphere. Andthen of that ninety five percent that you're
capturing, what happens to it andwhere does it go? Because this differs
from from traditional ccs, and soI think that's CCS or CCUS being what
you're doing with it. So couldyou explain that a little bit. You
can do a whole lot of hostof things with this CO two, right,

(13:05):
you can do the traditional CCUS andthat you can sequester it in a
class six well or use it forenhanced oil recovery. But because depending on
the fuel you use, So forinstance, if you use biomass in the
bright loop system, your CO twois carbon is carbon negative, so now

(13:28):
you can use that to make sustainableaviation fuels and things from that perspective,
so it gives you the ability nowto utilize that CO two because especially if
you've used biomass as your feedstock,then you can drive to all these different
types of sustainable aviation fuels and othersustainable fuels. Also add it and the

(13:54):
CO two these days can be inadditional to sequestrated and you can react it
or with other chemicals for example hydrogenand to produce methane. It can produce
uh, you know, chemicals.So CEO two actually is in some cases
a good combon sources as well andto be you know, reduced to carbon

(14:16):
monoxide and then as one of thebuilding block you know, as in the
seine, gas coupled with hydrogen cansynthesize many different products and uh, and
then for example, drive reforming technologyalways have been talking about, and I
think chemical grouping can do that,not dry reforming without the combon deposition onto

(14:37):
the catalyst which traditionally be done inthe different ways. And so so the
CEO two utilization I think Brandy Imentioned about CCUS which including the euthietization in
addition to storage. We would yousay, one of the I guess benefits
of this type of approach that youhave really come up with and patented,

(14:58):
right, you've patented to do thistechnology is that it can handle such a
wide range of different fuel sources.This isn't a one fuel source kind of
deal, is it. Yeah.That's really what sets this technology apart from
all of the competitors in the marketplaceis we're not tied to just using natural

(15:20):
gas or just using a single fuel. We have the ability to use a
wide range of fuels. And whenwe talk about biomass, that breadth of
potential feedstocks is significant. Right whenyou think about agricultural waste, for instance,
We've looked at the gas, whichis what's left over when you harvest

(15:43):
sugar cane or rice husks, oreven when we think about our forests and
all the forest fires you need allthe to clean the forest floor and all
those trimmings. We can use thosetypes of trimmings as our feedstock to produce
hydrogen. So we really think ofit as how to use those things that

(16:03):
would normally not be used, andhow to use that turn that waste into
hydrogen. We have been talking aboutc CUS which is a very very critical
and intensive combon emission control and thenin conjunction with the c c U s,
there are two sort of you know, the fuels or the product which

(16:25):
are you know, very encouraging toproduce, and Brandy just mentioned about hydrogen
and then another's biofuel. And todayjet fuel is very very important and the
jet fuel, uh, you knowproduced that has to be you know,
the common neutral and the only newtechnology can make it more economically attractive at

(16:48):
the same time, and this particularyou know product can be produced experiously,
very economically. So doctor Fan talkabout scalability. Can you walk us through
sort of where you've been, howyou have been scaling up this process over
the last several years. And whatdo we have to look forward to that

(17:12):
commercial size of scale. I thinkthat this is a very important issue and
UH and Bobcock Wilcox, UH,you know it's in the commercial side and
it's our very important partner to makeit commercialization realized. But our High State
University we are we are very fortunatewith the very strong administrative support and providing

(17:36):
the laboratory that can do various atype of scale of the operation to prove
the technology. And we have standardto zero point five you know kill watch
system and elevated to twenty five killwatch system and this is called a stop
palet system and in our laboratory andyou need a high bay area to do

(17:59):
so and where we fortunately can doso and UH. And then next scale
will be two hundred and fifty kirowats and which is you know, a
pilot demonstration and that we were avery fortunate received opera project and UH.
And then to demonstrate it hydrogen productionsin NCCC facilities and above Worldcocks also using

(18:19):
their facility and Arburton side, andto demonstrate it in a cool cold a
conversion into power and so with thiskind of two hundred and fifty KOed watts
units and that we're ready to moveinto the next scale, that would be
the commercial scale. And the mostimportant is economically has to be visible and

(18:41):
uh and then however, the sizeof the commercial is going to be.
You know, it could be fivemakeup wats, could be fifteen makeup wats,
could be twenty makeup wats. Butwe already know if we just scale
up to let's say five to tenmake a watch system, it may not
be extraordinarily large, but economic bevisible. And then one need to do

(19:02):
is, you know, if youjust duplicate this commercial scale and economically easy
extorted, I'll track it so andI'll take it from there and tell you
what we're working on now. Right, So, our first commercial demonstration plant
we're working on will be in Massline, Ohio again to kind of keep that
Ohio connection, and we'll be veryclose to our headquarters here in Akron,

(19:25):
Ohio. And that unit will bea you know, think about that as
three to five tons a day ofhydrogen. So that's on the small scale
unit. At the same time,we're developing multiple projects, one up in
Wyoming, one down in Louisiana withdifferent feedstocks that are going to be at
the fifteen ton per day of hydrogenusage, and so that's what we would

(19:48):
call our medium sized unit, andthose are under development now, and in
fact, we've gotten state funding fromthe state of Wyoming to continue that.
So we're trying to get the masslineunit up and running first and then we'll
work on continuing down the path withthe Wyoming unit as well as the one
in Louisiana, and then the finalscale up from there would be our large

(20:11):
unit, which will be in thethink about that as one hundred to two
hundred tons a day of hydrogen.So when we think about hydrogen production,
we've kind of got the three kindof areas of the market in those three
size units. Okay, Yeah,that's very helpful. And one of the
things that I'm trying to visualize,both for myself and the listeners there is

(20:32):
that, you know, we've seendifferent technologies that and capture carbon that can
reduce carbon, but they're very energyintensive so far right, And isn't correct
me here if I've got this wrong, But isn't one of the inherent benefits
of this type of technology is thatit inherently separates CO two out without a

(20:56):
lot of energy, which makes it, i think, different from all the
others. Is that an accurate statement. Yeah, that's very accurate. And
the one we think about that intwo ways. One is that the way
our process works, we create allthe heat we need right the particle.
It has exothermic reactions that create theheat we need, so we don't have

(21:19):
external heating. And unlike like anelectrillizer for instance, that uses lots and
lots of electrical power, the onlyelectrical power we need are to run compressors
and you know, normal pumps andstuff from an operation standpoint, so we
don't need to make heat, wedon't need to add energy into the system.

(21:41):
You're really just using it from acompression standpoint. And then, because
you said it already, because weinherently separate the CO two, we don't
have a separate system that's needed there, so we don't have to go through
a lot of steps. We essentiallyjust have to clean up the CO two
and then it's ready to be usedor or sequestered. And this can be

(22:03):
carried out or using cogeneration skin aswell. For example, in a hydrogen
generation, you introduce water or steamUH into into the system to react with
the metal to UH to form themetal oxide and and and the hydrogen produced.
But the steam can be processed firstto the rinking cycle to generate electricity.

(22:27):
So the system can be varied andit configured in such a way with
the electicity be cogenerated and alas hydrogen. And in that case so it can
make the hydrogen prices very low becauseyou have additional electricity as your product benefits,
I guess sort of. The ultimatequestion is when will we see this

(22:52):
in everyday use, what's what's sortof your your timeline and UH are there
any impediments to to that to gettingthere? And then finally, I know
compound question where can people go tofind out more information about this technology and
about Apcock and Wilcox and about doctorFann. So turn it back over,

(23:19):
so I'll start and then I'll letdoctor Fann come in. So from a
timing perspective, the biggest impediment isfinding capital that wants to help deploy at
a commercial this new technology at acommercial scale. So we are out on
the street right now looking for financingto help get the first project over the
finish line, and when that alltakes place, we expect to be making

(23:45):
hydrogen by the end of twenty twentyfive, so the first unit we'll be
making hydrogen by the end of twentytwenty five. We'd like to be making
hydrogen, assuming all goes well thereand when it does that we've been making
hydrogen from the medium side as unitsin late twenty six or early twenty seven,
and with the ultimate goal of havinglarge units up and running by the

(24:07):
end of the of the decade.So I think that's a realistic timeline based
on scale up and where we needto be and the work we're doing,
and where we are with the projectswe are today. If somebody were to
give us the money we need forthe first unit, we would buy equipment
tomorrow because all of the detailed engineeringis done, so we are ready to

(24:30):
We are that ready to move.When you want to know more about us,
you can go to our website orfind us on all social media.
Our website is www dot Babcock thatis Babcock dot com and we are on
all social media Babcock and Welcocks.This is such transformative technology. This is
so exciting and just happen at theright timing. And I always feel that,

(24:56):
you know, the concept is startedwhen I first saying years ago,
why take that long? And Iguess, you know, there's an implication
respect to how we educate in ourstudents and in terms of thinking and to
be able to you know, overcomesome of the barriers that take that long
and to reach today's a technology realization, uh that is we need to think

(25:22):
a multi scale and that the wholetechnology itself has a very strong components in
molecular aspect and particle aspect, andwe have a react to aspect and they
have a system. The one neededto couple all this concept in order,
you know, to synthesize into somesort of very innovated idea. And oxygen

(25:44):
carrier is the key and in additionto the reactor per se oxygen carrier but
making and I think we already knowhow to make in small quantity when the
process is making large quantity for coaluse. So scale up not just reactor
to say, but also the oxygencarrier itself. And we are making a

(26:07):
lot of progress. And I thinkthe team at the Ohio stage and working
closely with about COWP Webcox and tomake sure the particle making come out to
be with a property that can fityou know, the kind of performance very
nicely, and what's aspect of respectivereactor and we don't feel there will be
any issue the reactor and UH,and I think that one of the most

(26:30):
important aspects you know of the characteristicsof this particular reactor configuration is is need
to be a moving bed and thatthis is a uniquely pattern by Ohio State.
You need to have a moving bedand take advantage of the reduction thermodynamic
relationship with the metal oxide with relativeto the product yield, and that gives

(26:52):
you the best yield. And UH. In terms of the references, and
I published two books you know onchemical looping and and UH with a lot
of contributing from my research team,and that two books could be serving as
good references and it would publish manymany papers and UH, and I gave
the primary talk. In fact,the coming international chemical Looping conferences, I

(27:18):
would be delivering UH the primary lecturesand then plus two other international energy environmental
conferences you know, in the comingcouple a month and I will be giving
those as well. So UH,they are plenty four reinformation and uh and
after all this is we are academicinstitution and our mission is to train the

(27:40):
students. And I'm so proud ofyou know, students, you know,
going through the training process and theproduce and contributing and then they do on
become the leader of the industry.That's fantastic And we're going to have to
leave it there for today. ButMs Johnson, Doctor, Professor Fan also

(28:03):
really appreciate you explaining chemical looping andthe exciting future that it has and helping
to decarbonize our world here as wemove forward. I've learned a lot today
and I think the listeners have aswell. So you've been listening to charged
conversations with your host, Brighan McCowna Joe Strecker production