August 9, 2025 • 54 mins
From candlelit fortune tellers to modern-day TikTok readings, tarot cards have traveled a strange and shadowy path through history. In this episode of Chillworthy, we trace the cards’ origins back to 15th-century Europe, when they were a pastime for the wealthy elite—long before whispers of prophecy and the occult clung to their edges.
You’ll discover how Tarot evolved into a tool of divination, tangled in superstition, mysticism, and even fear. We’ll explore infamous legends, unsettling symbolism, and stories of those who claim the cards foretold doom. Whether you see tarot as harmless guidance, a doorway to the subconscious, or a dangerous glimpse beyond the veil, we’re shuffling the deck and dealing out the truth behind the lore.
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DISCLAIMER The content presented on Chillworthy, including all episodes, transcripts, social media posts, and associated materials, is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The podcast does not offer legal, medical, psychological, or professional advice of any kind. While the hosts—Brent and Talia—make a good faith effort to ensure that the information shared is based on publicly available sources and is as accurate as possible at the time of recording, Chillworthy does not guarantee the completeness, timeliness, or reliability of any statements made. Listeners should be aware that cases may involve ongoing legal proceedings or developments that evolve over time. The hosts are not licensed attorneys, journalists, law enforcement professionals, or forensic experts. Opinions expressed in the podcast reflect the personal views of the hosts and do not represent factual determinations or official findings. All individuals named or discussed are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Any resemblance to real individuals or entities, outside of those explicitly named, is purely coincidental. The podcast is not affiliated with or endorsed by any legal authority, news outlet, or investigative body. By listening to Chillworthy, you acknowledge and accept these terms and agree not to hold the hosts or producers liable for any inaccuracies, misstatements, or interpretations derived from the content.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/chillworthy--6229613/support.
You’ll discover how Tarot evolved into a tool of divination, tangled in superstition, mysticism, and even fear. We’ll explore infamous legends, unsettling symbolism, and stories of those who claim the cards foretold doom. Whether you see tarot as harmless guidance, a doorway to the subconscious, or a dangerous glimpse beyond the veil, we’re shuffling the deck and dealing out the truth behind the lore.
Click here to leave a donation to support the podcast
Click here to see all links
Find us on socials:
Instagram: @chillworthypodcast
Bluesky: @chillworthypodcast
Skylight: @chillworthypodcast
Youtube: @chillworthypodcast
Tiktok: @chillworthypodcast
DISCLAIMER The content presented on Chillworthy, including all episodes, transcripts, social media posts, and associated materials, is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The podcast does not offer legal, medical, psychological, or professional advice of any kind. While the hosts—Brent and Talia—make a good faith effort to ensure that the information shared is based on publicly available sources and is as accurate as possible at the time of recording, Chillworthy does not guarantee the completeness, timeliness, or reliability of any statements made. Listeners should be aware that cases may involve ongoing legal proceedings or developments that evolve over time. The hosts are not licensed attorneys, journalists, law enforcement professionals, or forensic experts. Opinions expressed in the podcast reflect the personal views of the hosts and do not represent factual determinations or official findings. All individuals named or discussed are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Any resemblance to real individuals or entities, outside of those explicitly named, is purely coincidental. The podcast is not affiliated with or endorsed by any legal authority, news outlet, or investigative body. By listening to Chillworthy, you acknowledge and accept these terms and agree not to hold the hosts or producers liable for any inaccuracies, misstatements, or interpretations derived from the content.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/chillworthy--6229613/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to Chillworthy.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
A podcast we're two best friends discuss mysteries, murders, and
anything in between for your enjoyment.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
So if you're ready to hear some chilling and unsettling cases,
you're in the right place, happy listening. Welcome back to
another episode of Chillworthy with Brent and Talia. Hi, everybody,
so we're doing a back to back episode, which means
(00:37):
a rather short intro unless you have do you have
a happy thing? Did you come with two? I didn't
either think of that. That's all right.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
We could say what we're grateful for.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I'm just happy to have you.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Well, everybody, you heard that here and now? Yeah, exactly, Wow,
very nice. I know wow, and I am very grateful
for you, all right, and to have you.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Thank you, thank you, no, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Marmala looks wind blow and the way you just pet
her in the.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Way her ear insisting on sitting like this. But whatever
on you likes it.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
She's your little helper. Ashley was watching that gg's episode
this morning. It's gonna be Blanche's little helper. Yes, oh
my gosh, speaking of that, I don't know if I
said this to you before we did the last episode
or if it was on the air. But how Shark
(01:44):
Week ended yesterday?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Did I certainly?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I said it, okay, So that just reminded me though
one of the shows, like you know, the scientists were
talking and whatever, and they named one of the sharks Blanche,
after the man's aunt, Blanche, who sounded like a mixture
of Blanche and like Sophia probably. Oh my my mouth
was gaping opened. I just like frozen, like spun to
(02:09):
Ashley with my mouth gaping opened. How wonderful.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I can't even imagine the excitement that filled that room.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Well, it was, you know, just coming out of me. Yeah, right, yeah,
Ashley was a good sport.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Well I think that's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
A shark named Blanche. I mean, come on, you know
who I didn't catch? Catch catch any episode mention of
Mary Lee, who I told you about.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I do? Yeah, remember her?
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Now, now you know who I'm talking about when I say.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Right, oh boy, oh boy. All right, So today's episode
or one of today's episodes, I should what do you
mean you have to to do? It's a lot lighter
than our previous episode. So this is not a true crime,
(03:07):
This is not a place, This is not a creature.
So what's left everybody? I'm sort of a doll. No no, no,
no no, a bunch of objects that sit together.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Ah, that are kept togethers yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
So I decided, since i'm you know, waste deep in
tarot making, because.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Are going to say wasting away.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Not that waste deep in making all these tarot cards,
I thought, what a nice thing to do to go
over the history of what where did these come from?
What are they? Shaw me? You know, I think a
lot of people only know them from what they see
in like cute you know, little movies of like and
(04:03):
it's and it's always the same cards that are pulled,
you know, death, is that true? You know? They love
they love the most obvious ones, and they always make
it sound like death actually means death and blah blah blah. Anyway,
getting on a high horse.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Which I don't remember. I'm pretty sure they're not that
you're saying this, death is one of the cards that
gets pulled, But I don't.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Because it's because people think it's so easy to understand,
So why wouldn't they pull that one versus like the
six of Swords, you know what I'm saying, So.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Not really no, but that's exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Why, right, Okay, So anyway, yeah, I just thought let's
do this. I'm not necessarily saying it's creepy, but it
is very folk glory and stuff of that nature. So so,
like I said, obviously, you know, when you think of taro,
you think of somebody sitting in like a dimly lit
room or sort of like how the Wizard sits in
(05:01):
the Wizard of Oz in his little traveling caravan and
he's got the crystal ball in front of him, and
he's had a table and he's yeah, he's not pulling
cards but.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
A beaded curtain. Right, you have that either, but right.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Right, stuff like that, So that's what we think about. So,
but Taro actually began as a family card game in
the Renaissance.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Get out of Here a family card game? How insane
is that?
Speaker 1 (05:28):
How crazy? Old Maid?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Oh my gosh, I did love that game and.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Go Fish of course absolutely.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I remember being very disappointed, like in childhood because we
had like a GoFish specific deck with a little fish
I know. And then I don't know how old I was,
like probably less than ten, and someone was like, oh,
you can do go fish with like a regular card deck,
and I was like so disappointed in this, like instead
(05:59):
of wow, like another possibility. I was so bummed. I thought,
what a drag? How can you play it without a
specific go fish.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I thought you were going to say, like somebody burned
it or something like that.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
God where my family.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Or whatever, like by accident like or it got thrown
away or somebody spilled red wine over. I don't freaking know, right,
but me, okay, all right, So here we go origins
and history of the Tarot. Now Tarot is spelled T
A R O T like tarot, right, but nobody ever
(06:33):
says the teat so we all know.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
So I thought you met when you said nobody ever
says the tea that it's actually errot instead of tarot.
I didn't know which tea you met. And then I thought,
oh my god, I've been saying it wrong this whole time.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
You do errot, right, I thought, I did you do?
All right? So tarot starts now again, this is like,
so there are I think there are a lot of
differ different theories about where it might have popped up. First,
I'm just going off of what I could find. Keep
that in mind, But so it's mostly believed that it
(07:10):
started in medieval Europe. So playing cards first arrived in
Europe around the thirteen seventies. Wow, I mean, that's pretty
freaking nuts. Now it seems like these playing cards came
Now I'm not saying the tarot cards. I'm saying to
(07:32):
the playing cards that started to show up in Europe.
They came from Egypt. So then from those cards, taro
apparently emerged a few decades later, as like I said,
this fun little card game. So historical records are showing
that tarot decks were invented in northern Italy Pions in
(07:58):
the early fifteenth century. So it says the Duke of
Milan's court, for example, he commissioned beautifully hand painted decks
around fourteen forty. Wow. So these are old as heck, oldies,
very oldies, old o's. That's an oldie.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Ah, you're quoting someone questionable.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Now go ahead, all right. So these early tarot decks,
they were used to play a trick taking game called
taro Chi Tricks for kids trcc HI. And they're saying
(08:49):
that it's similar to bridge, right, So they were so
they were not doing this for any kind of divination
or you know, predicting the future or anything like that.
It was like playing a game game.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Now, riddle me right, you have or have not played Bridge?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
No?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I haven't, me neither. Do you know how it works? No,
me neither, But I've always been curious. That's also and
now and then that's what one of the grandmothers plays.
She's late for her bridge game. I'm pretty sure that's
the name.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, I mean, what's that other one that I was
playing for a while? No, no, I don't remember.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Where were you playing it?
Speaker 1 (09:30):
I would go to like Michael's and and you know
he it's not part cheesy.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
G loved that. That was a big game in our family.
Oh you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (09:41):
You what was?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
And this was also a big thing in our family. Peanockle.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yes, that's it. Yes, I played it for a while.
Don't remember anything about it now.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
The Italians like that as well.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Fine, interesting yeah sos in.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Their card games apparently apparently right, although they came from
the Egyptians. True, but in my head, I see Italians.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Okay. So what made the Taro unique was that there
was this addition of a special fifth suit, so instead
of the four suits, there were five suits, and this
fifth suit had twenty two pictures and they were originally
called the triumphsat so they were set on top of
(10:32):
the standard four suits in a deck of cards. So
each of these cards had like a unique allegorical image.
So there were people like an emperor, there were people
like the lovers, there was somebody who represented death. And
this was likely because it drew on the medieval ideas
(10:53):
of basically like the procession of life, you know, like
the fool is the beginning when you're brand new to
life and the lovers, and then you know, as you
continue on, like I mean, death doesn't actually mean death,
but it could mean like the ending of something and
(11:15):
the transformation to something new, so blah blah blah. So
they just thought that this is what it was like depicting.
So so these games spread across Europe, and I guess
even today it's still played as a game, not as
a fortune telling thing in parts of France, Italy and elsewhere.
(11:36):
But for a long time, taro's purpose was purely playful
and social. So now, around the late eighteenth century, occultists
in France quote unquote discovered that taro could be used
for divination. So in seventeen eighty one. I am not
(11:59):
going to be able to say this name. Do your
best antone court de Gebelen, good job. Thanks published an
essay that claimed that the Tarot's imagery was ancient Egyptian
wisdom in disguise and saying with no evidence. Ps Luna agrees, saying,
(12:26):
with no evidence that Taro descended from the mystical book
of Toth, which is Thho thh and this was a
mystical book from Egyptian folklore. So with this new found claim,
I guess it launched a wave of exotic stories and theories.
(12:50):
So people then started throwing out some real bangers do zs,
like oh, these cards actually came they you know, they
survived from the Lost City of Atlantis Atlantis, or the
Lost Library of Alexandria, a lot of lost things, yeah,
or the secret knowledge of the Roma Travelers otherwise known
(13:14):
as the Gypsies. So just a lot of like you know,
it's like, oh, I can I can top that? How
about they came from you know that kind of stuff.
But anyway, regardless though, they are obviously steeped in a
lot of history, regardless of where they came from. So
then there was a French occultist Jean Baptiste Elliott. So
(13:42):
he was the first to publish a guide to using
the tarot for specifically fortune telling. Now, this happened in
seventeen eighty five. I feel like I'm giving a lecture.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
I was going to say, I feel like I'm sitting
in like a college course, a class, whatever.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
I just want a little PowerPoint and a pointer. So
this man who published this, he designed one of the
earliest esoteric tarot decks with added Egyptian like motifs. And
in the nineteenth century there were mystics like Ellie fast Levy,
(14:20):
a lot of tricky ones I know who further linked
the tarot to other esoteric systems. And again they were
talking about those twenty two cards that popped up like
the fifth Missing Suit or whatever. And then they started
to connect them to astrology symbols and a bunch of
stuff like all of this is like it's starting to
(14:41):
get more like mystical and less go fish, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
I do see what you mean.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
So now those twenty two cards, they're called the major Arkana.
So and again these these major Arkana twenty two cards
were seen as symbols of life symbols of life and
spiritual forces and lessons learned through life. Okay, yeah, sure
(15:07):
so that so again it was like, you know, temperance
is one of them, and that talks about like like
not living in either of the extremes, you know, like
you don't have to be easy, does right? You know
you should pull that card sometimes.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I should do it before every time we.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Give tattoo, like tell you just pat your tattoo, pat
it down.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
A tattoo.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
So anyway, now into the twentieth century, taro gained huge
popularity in the English speaking countries, and I guess this
is in large part to the work of the Hermetic
Order of the Golden Dawn. Right. So in nineteen oh nine,
(16:04):
Arthur Edward Wait, which is an important person for this,
an artist Pamela Coleman Smith. Together they created the famous
Rider Wait Smith deck. That's the deck that like everybody
knows if you know, terror as.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Their traditional day one one say that again the original like, well,
certainly not the original, there were two centuries before that,
but the most commonly depicted deck of imagery.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yes, yes, yes, so they designed this and they designed
it specifically for divination, and they used detailed symbolic illustrations
on all of the seventy eight cards. Now that is
sort of important because there's a lot of decks out
there that will do the first twenty two cards they'll
(17:03):
have these symbolic pictures, but then the next cards, like
the other four sets of cards, all they are is
like pictures of just five cups for the five of cups,
not a picture depicting what the five cups is about
for anyone interested in my decks do not do that.
They have pictures for every single card anyway. So but
(17:29):
that's important because, like I said, some other decks don't
do that. So this deck introduced imagery for the minor
arcana cards as well. So it was making the interpretations
more intuitive because you actually had the picture there and
you could get something out of it instead of just
seeing a picture of five cups and trying to remember
what that's supposed to mean. So the writer Weight deck
(17:54):
that became like the blueprint for the modern tarot decks
and readings that we all know, well people who know
Tarrell would think of. Then have you ever heard of
Alistair Crowley? Me? I think he lived on Lockness Just
so you know how embarrassing for me, Yeah, I was
(18:14):
gonna say right for him. For him, he was also
a little out there. Was he the.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Kookie man in the documentary.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
I think he was a kookie man in with white hair.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
There may have been several in that, but okay, So
he he was like like an occultist and stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
He was like known to I think mingle with demons
and wow things scary stuff. But I think his house
was on locked nest. I'm almost sure of that.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
But anyway, I would never get anything done living there.
I would just literally stare out at the water constantly.
I would not do anything else.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
So this guy, he produced his own dak, the Toth
or Thoth I don't know, tarot deck. And this was
done in the nineteen forties, so now we're really getting
closer to modern times. And this had a bunch of
occult symbolism. Now, actually, I don't know if I've ever
seen this deck. I've only ever seen the ones that
(19:18):
I just talked about, yeah, or ones that are just
made up by people. But like, I don't know if
I've ever seen the one that they just described here.
But now today's tarot decks they come in countless artistic styles,
but they usually follow the same structure, which is what
I told you about twenty two big cards and then
four suits of the smaller cards. So while some people
(19:39):
still are big into the tarots like mystical reputation, others
have kind of transformed into a more psychological or just
a creative way to sort of do like self reflection
and like you know, so not necessarily as magically inclined,
but like anybody can use it to just be intuitive
(20:03):
to themselves and to help them work through things, which
I think sounds nice. I agree right now. Of course,
you know, you know some people are like, oh it's evil,
you know, all about doom and gloom and blah blah
blah blah blah. As you can see, I don't prescribe
(20:26):
to them. So all right, subscribe? Oh is it? What
is prescribe medication? Yeah? But isn't that as something else?
Speaker 2 (20:35):
I don't think. But like subscribing to a belief is
like subscribing to the news.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Is prescribing telling someone to believe something.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Like that makes sense?
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Heard? It is all right anyway.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Whatever blows your hair back?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
All right? So, like I told you the standard tarot deck,
I want to go through what it is a little
bit now, so and again this is the standard. But
so the standard tarot deck consists of seventy eight cards,
and they are split into two main sections, the major
Arcana and the minor Arkana. So the word arkana, do
you have any clue what that means? Now?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
When I was just going to say how much I
love the sound of.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
It, So translated it means secrets or mysteries. So the
major secrets and mysteries and the minor secrets and mysteries.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Right, So these terms were first coined by occultists in
the nineteenth century because tarot players before that they didn't
use those types of terminology. So each section of the
deck has a different role in a different symbolism. So
for the major Arkana, the twenty two cards, they're not
(21:46):
part of any suit, right, So these are in the
twenty two they're the ones that have the most iconic
symbols that you would see in movies, the fool, the magician,
the high priestess, the lover is the death card, and
so on. So in the early games when they were
using this, these were the triumph cards that could like
(22:08):
trump any card in the suit. Basically, whatever the hell
that's supposed to mean. But in a tarot reading, the
major arcana are said to represent the big archetypal themes
and life lessons, so like the big significant spiritual or
karma influences in life. So that's kind of like what
(22:31):
the point of the big cards are. So we have
them as the following, the Fool, the Magician, the High Priestess,
the Empress, the Emperor, the High Refint, the Lovers, the Chariot, Strength,
the Hermit, the Wheel of Fortune, Justice, the hanged Man, Death, Temperance,
(22:54):
the Devil, the Tower, the Star, the Moon, the Sun, Judgment,
and last but not lea, the world. So and like
I said, each of those cards has like a specific symbolism.
So like the Fool, he's all about beginnings and being
open hearted and having innocence, like that's where everybody's journey starts,
(23:16):
let's say. And the world at the other end signifies
completion and wholeness and the fulfillment of the journey. So
like now you've you're at the end of the journey.
So so now the minor arkana, which there are fifty
six of those, they are divided into four suits just
(23:37):
like normal playing cards. Do you know, the four suits,
I think you might know at least one, and cups
and swords, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Pinnacles, yeah, kinockles.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Pentacles, pencacles. Okay, you're only missing one.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I don't think I know this. Daggers.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
No nobody ever uses a dagger like I just did.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Then carry potter, oh wan, thank you. So each of
these have numbered cards one through ten, and then they
have the court cards. And so the four are the wands,
the cups, the swords, and the pinnacles. So each suit
(24:28):
addresses a certain like realm of life. Okay, so the
wands they are associated with the element of fire, and
they deal with energy, inspiration, drive, that kind of thing,
you know, passion, piss. The cups they correspond to water,
(24:49):
and they represent emotions and intuition.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Love, very nice, absolutely, I love the swords. What do
you think they correspond to danger no hair hair air,
So they symbolize intellect, communication, conflict, challenges, right, And the
(25:16):
pinnacles are kind of unique because everything else is sort
of like intangible. Yea, the pinnacles are all tangible. It's
like like earthly things, material money.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Success, well, monetary success work, like the physical world, things
that you can kind of touch, a little bit more
measure things of that nature.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
So the minor arkana instead of how the major are
kind of focused on like big things, the minor arcana
are like more like day to day matters, a little details. Yes, yes, yes, So,
as I told you, there's court cards also, So within
each of the four suits, they are are typically the
following the King, the Queen, the Knight, and the page pag.
(26:05):
So these court cards are like the equivalent of what
we think of when we think of like the King,
Queen and the jack in a regular playing deck. That's
what I was thinking, right, except with the extra person
of the page. So these yeah, so these court cards
represent usually people in your life or you, you know what
(26:27):
I mean. So like the other cards don't are more
like situations. These are like, oh, I see somebody with
the energy of this card, like the page of wands.
So like for example, the page of any suit. Right,
it's usually seen as a youthful or a novice person
(26:51):
because pages, as they're just starting out, they represent like beginnings, curiosity,
like kind of like youth, and then we move up.
So then the knights are all about like action. They're
the ones that are out there in the world doing
the stuff. And then the queens they are like they
are the ones that embody like maturity and understanding, so
(27:14):
they kind of have like the mastery of whatever it is.
So if it's like the Queen of Cups, like they
have mastery over their emotions, like they've learned to have
mastery over whatever they represent.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I know, apples and oranges.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Sure. And then last the kings they represent like the
authority and the leadership in again in that so maybe
the kings lead like they're like a very uh they're
if like it's the King of Swords, he's like a
very intellectual leader. You know, he doesn't lead based off
(27:51):
of emotion. He leads based off of intellect. Do you
get what I'm saying?
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (27:56):
I think you do as well. Okay, so you know,
so that would be like if you if you were
having a reading done and then they say the King
of Swords came up and and oh this is very
important to say, very important. There there is no gender
in Taro. So like if you're doing a reading and
(28:19):
you pull the Queen of Cups, that doesn't mean that
that can't represent a male in your life in because
it would be a male who who has mastery over
his emotions doesn't have to be a female who has
mastery over her emotions just because you picked the Queen
of Cups. It's just showing the different levels.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
I didn't know that, I mean.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
So I'm just saying, yeah, you know. So that's why
it's like if you pull the Queen of Cups, but
somebody's grandfather is very has a lot of that energy,
well then yeah you're not like, oh damn almost, That's
what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Absolutely, So now you know the breakdown of this now,
and I won't be quizzing.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
You, Thank goodness, I'd love to.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
All right, all right, so now how do these cards
all come together to like actually do this like in practice? So,
tarot reading is an art and a skill that combines
knowledge of the card meanings, but it also has intuition
and storytelling. So like a typical tarot reading begins with
(29:40):
somebody asking a question or like some type of intention.
So this person is often called the querrant.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
I never heard that.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
No, So this person is probably seeking guidance about like
a life situation, or maybe they just want like a
general insight. So the reader, which could be querran themselves,
like you can of course read for yourself, right, or
it could be a different person. They shuffle the deck
thoroughly while they're you know, thinking about what the person
(30:12):
is asking or like getting like getting the energy flowing
and twisting about fiddling right. So traditionally, and I say
this traditionally because it's like a lot of the times
now this can be done on zoom, you know, like
we can we have technology to read for people in
Australia if we want, whereas back then it wasn't that way.
(30:36):
But traditionally the person who was asking the question would
be the one that after the deck has been shuffled,
they would like cut the cards in half the deck
and half, like they're the ones that make that that
move to do that. So that helps to impart their
energy and helps like the randomization of the cards. So
(31:00):
then the cards get drawn and they're laid out in
a specific pattern, which is called a that I don't
know what do you do with peanut butter on bread?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
So I do know spread.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
I was gonna say, no, you don't sew it.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yes, I did know that, son of a gun.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Well you got it. FI. So each position in the
tarot spread has like a different meaning or an aspect,
So like you might pull like three cards and one
might represent past influences and another might represent like your
current challenge, and then the last one might represent like
advice for you moving forward. So that's just you know,
(31:42):
and you can make up your own spreads like it
could be like today, tomorrow, and even yesterday, you know
what I mean? Like, it doesn't matter. You could do
whatever you want Wednesday, Tuesday and sitter Day. But it
doesn't have to be time either. It could be like
what am I avoiding? What am I What should I
(32:06):
learn to accept? And what should I work on? Throwing
my hands up in the air. But you know what
I mean real quick?
Speaker 2 (32:13):
You just said when you mentioned Wednesday, I meant to
say this. Did you see that they're coming out with
a season two? You did or did not watch?
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Yeah? I watched it.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
It was all right, Yeah, but yeah August new season.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Okay, Yeah, So, like I told you, into was intuation.
Intuation like Elmer Fudd intuition of rabbits. Intuition plays a
key role in a good tarot reading because each card
has its core meanings. But like an experienced tarot reader
(32:47):
also pays attention to which cards are speaking to them
in the moment their gut impressions.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
What's your gut telling exactly what.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Does your gut say? And it can even be like
what card next to the other card? You know, like
I can't of course they don't have an example right now,
but you know, maybe like if there's a card that
represents income and there's a card that represents decision making,
(33:17):
and if they're together, it's like, oh, you've got a
decision to make about where are you're going to get
your income? Right? Like are you going to keep this job?
Are you going to switch jobs? Is there a venture
you're going to try to start? Like it's like, so
it's not just the cards singular, it's the cards and
how they interact with one another. And you're welcome. And
it can even go as deep as if all the
(33:37):
cards have pictures on them. If one card person is
sitting there and he's looking at the other car, oh shit,
that might mean you're being like you're being drawn to
that energy. And if he's looking away from that card,
it might mean like you're moving away from conflict or
you know what I mean. Like there's a lot of
stuff a lot.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Of way more to this than I realized, of course.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
So I just want to tell you about one a
very common spread. Tell me, but it's ten cards. Ten now, yes,
So this is called the Celtic cross spread. So if
you've ever seen like a tarot reading done by a professional,
a lot of the times they'll use the Celtic cross.
(34:28):
So it's this ten card spread, and it offers a
comprehensive overview of a situation. So card one is the
present situation. Card two is the challenge or the influence
that's being put on the current situation. The third card
is the past, the fourth is the recent past. The
(34:51):
fifth is the goal or the conscious aim. The sixth
card is the near future. Card seven, this one, I
think pretty interesting, is the queerance self image. So it's
how the queerance sees themselves. You're getting turned on, no,
(35:11):
I'm getting stertled. Card eight is the external influences, so
people or circumstances around the quarrant that affect the situation.
Card nine is then the hopes and the fears, and
card ten is the outcome, which is like the most
(35:32):
likely result or resolution. And of course this is all
going on the basis that you're thinking you're gonna be
predicting something like if you're doing it more for reflection,
it's probably a little bit different, you know, But like
I'm just saying, you know, it depends on what your
belief system is around the taroll, what your intention is.
(35:52):
So then like when you go over this, it basically
gives a three hundred and sixty degree look at the
person who the cards being read for, like their issue,
So the internal, the external factors, passed in the future, hopes, obstacles,
everything is considered. So it's like a holistic spread, which
I think sounds very nice. Same I think it sounds
(36:12):
very involved.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Very involved, but like well rounded, but a lot of.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Info, absolutely a lot, and I think it would be
I think that would be such a fun experience to
have your cards read by somebody who has like twenty
years experience, like somebody who's just it's like second nature
to them and they just spit it out right. They
don't have to think about it as much as like,
you know, which is one of the reasons why I
think I said this to you. But like with the
(36:37):
cards that I'm making, they have like my ocean deck
has a phrase on them, because I think it's very
unmagical to be like, oh, let me read your cards.
Then you pull when you say hold on, let me
get the book. No need. It takes away all the
mysticism around it to be like okay, well on page
(36:57):
three B go to my guys, it says like, that's
not that's not the vibe. I'm not looking for that vibe.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Right.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
So obviously, like I said, many other spreads exist and
you can just make them up.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Also, so you can literally like wonky shapes, not shapes
like wonky spreads. I guess, like just literally.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Whatever, literally, what should I have for lunch? Whatever? You know,
it comes up with a card that shows what you
you know all about like personal reward, and you're like, well,
I do love a sandwich. If you were doing this,
you love salm, so you know what I mean? Just
a loaf of cheese.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Can you imagine?
Speaker 1 (37:43):
I can?
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Actually you've seen me eat it.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Right side note, I have seen you eat it.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
That's what I meant.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, And this was well, this had to be semi
early on wherever wherever it goes. No, no, no, no, no,
what I'm about to say. What I'm about to say
when I saw you eat shreaded cheese like a bowl
of cereal. That was jerring.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
I remember one of my it was right around that time.
My boss saw me do it as well, but I
had it in a container and she thought I was
eating shredded carrots nursery.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Well you should have let her believe it. So like
we were like we were saying, it's like it's you know,
it depends on what you think. Is it magic or
is it self reflection? So it's like the ant. Like
I said, the answer really depends on who you ask
and what you believe. So from like a balanced perspective,
(38:45):
taro can literally be a bit of both. It just
largely depends on the mindset of the user. So on
one hand, taro has historically been lumped in with crystal
balls and Oiji boards bills. I love Chris balls, but
don't bring that ship into my house, meaning Wei boards
get out of here. I don't ever want those in here.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
You would not want that ei now never. You would
literally say leave that outside.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Yes, I don't want it ever. Wow said what I said.
I do feel very strong.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
I hear you, I see you, and I hear you.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Oh, butts of fingers dropped crystal.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Well, I did that. You got very upset. It happens.
That's that silver machine Whaley obsidian. Yes, it's freaking beautiful,
like the side of the moon.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Back to this. So, it's true that some tarot readers
do approach the cards in a psychic ori intuitive way,
feeling like the cards are drawn not at random, but
rather guided by like the universe, which is nice. You know,
nothing wrong with that, I agreed. So these practitioners might
say that the cards connect them to their higher cell
or like spirit guides, and that they help to provide
(39:59):
ants from a magical quality serendipitous. Right. So then, on
the other hand, there are some modern Tarot philosophies that
often emphasize that the cards are less about foretelling fixed
fates and more about revealing patterns and possibilities. So there's
(40:20):
a woman, Claire Burgos, and she says, Taro in my view,
isn't a crystal ball that tells the future, but instead
it's a practical tool for self discovery, healing, and empowerment.
So when we draw on interpret tarot cards, what we're
really doing is reflecting on our own lives. We look
at our own choices our feelings and patterns, but we
(40:43):
do it through the symbolic lens of the cards. So
in this sense, taro is often more about guidance than prediction.
So it's more like, you know, if you continue on
this path, this might be the likely outcome, but it
like empowers you with the insight to change your course
depending on if you agree or disagree. So you know,
(41:06):
so I feel like one of them is like somebody
telling you something, and the other one is you pulling
out what you need from the cards, because you could,
you know, draw a card and people could get very
different impressions of it depending on what's going on in
their life there, what their mindset is, what their personality is,
(41:27):
like that kind of thing. So there's also this psychologist
Carl jung Ju Energy, and he spoke of the taro
as representing these archetypes, which are like universal symbols, like
we said, and he said that it's like this this
(41:48):
gateway to open communication with your conscious and unconscious because again,
like what comes up for you, maybe what's coming up
for you is coming from the unconscious. So so like
if you see the devil card, for example, it might
force you to acknowledge that you've got an unhealthy attachment
to something or there's like some fear that's holding you
(42:09):
back in your life. Because the devil represents self imposed bondage. Wow,
you know, like a smoker, right, very unhealthy, absolutely, but
they like it. They like what they like, right.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
So no offense to any of our certainly not right.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
It is an example, right, So remember how I was
talking about the death card for example, So like Taro's
reputation for predicting doom, like I said, in all those
movies the death card, everybody's pulling the death card. Somebody's
gonna die. That's a huge misunderstanding because in actual practice,
(42:52):
the death card more often signifies transformation and the ending
of a chapter, not the ending of a life. And
the death card doesn't even have to mean it's the
ending of something to start something negative. It could mean
to start something positive. So I'm just saying it's not
(43:12):
literal death. So you know, like I said, the tarot
can feel magical, but it doesn't have to be supernatural,
got it. So I think that's I think that's wonderful. Agreed. Now,
I also looked up some tarot cards that happened to
(43:34):
be in true crime stories.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Oh, in like what way, Well, we're about crime.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Scene find out. So, for example, the death card from
the rider Wait tarot deck, right again, we said, one
of the most notorious cards. Well, there was a US
case involving arrow cards. So the DC Beltway snipers left
(44:06):
a morbid calling card. They did. Yes, there was a
thirteen year old who was wounded by a sniper at
a Maryland school and investigators found the death tarot card
near the scene, and there was a message scrawled upon it.
(44:28):
And the message said, quote unquote call me God.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Was this the older man and the younger guy? Was that?
Were those the DC snipers.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
John Allen Mohammed and Lee Boyd Milville.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Yes, I had no memory of that with these cards,
so and foolish of them. They were not using the
death card correctly.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Very foolish, foolish. So that handwritten tarot card. It was
basically like this taunt, reflecting the killer's twisted sense of power.
And police initially kept the card secret, hoping to have
a dialogue with a sniper, but it got leaked to
the media within a day, so the bizarre clue only
(45:15):
deepened the public intrigue until the pair was caught, and
to this day, the death card with the call me
God remains one of the most chilling crime calling cards
in modern true crime. Lowre. Wow, it's a literal calling card.
You get what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
I do.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Next, we have a tarot confession of Christopher Wade in
twenty fourteen. So, in twenty fourteen, a nineteen year old
Leah Porter disappeared in Colorado. Her friend, Christopher Wade, eventually
confessed to her murder, and he later revealed an unusual
(45:59):
reason for coming. Wade was obsessed with Tarot cards, and
he claimed that tarot readings compelled him to admit his crime.
Speaker 3 (46:07):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
So, in an interview from prison, Christopher said, the cards
were saying to me that my guilt over the murder
would destroy me unless I let it out. He had
even confessed first to the victim's brother, allegedly because of
what the tarot cards showed him, before turning himself in
to nine to one one. So, tragically, Leah Porter's body
(46:35):
has never been found, although Wade did lead the police
to some of her belongings on.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
He wouldn't lead them to her body.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
I agree, but or if it's.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
No longer able to be reached.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
And I don't have that information, so many who knows
what the hell happened there?
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Right? But right?
Speaker 1 (46:57):
So then this one was in two thousand in five,
a case that mixed fortune telling and vengeance. So there
was this California psychic and Ha Jade Smith.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
H a Jade.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Yes Ha. Then parent quotes Jade Smith, So I guess
Ha Smith.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
Yeah. She was a popular fortune teller in Orange County
and she was like a big name in the Vietnamese community.
So she was consulted by a client, Tanya Nelson, who
desperately wanted to win back an ex lover. When Jade's
tarot and palm reading advised Nelson to quote unquote get
(47:48):
over it and accept that this relationship was over, Nelson
became enraged. So in April of two thousand and she
traveled from North Carolina to Westminster, California, and brutally murdered
(48:08):
this tarot reader, Jade Smith and Jade's adult daughter.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
They were stabbed multiple times and in a very ritual
like touch. Their faces and hands were covered in white paint.
So Nelson was convicted in twenty ten of masterminding this
double murder, and prosecutors noted that Jade, who was known
(48:39):
as miss ha you know, she did cardon palm readings
for a living and was renowned for her skill. And
this was a talent that ultimately gave unwelcome news to
a very very dangerous client. So you know, and I
guess you know, really that is something to think about.
(49:00):
You're telling people, I agree some You're telling people some stuff, man,
and if they disagree with.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
It, they may not be a fan of.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
I don't think so right, You're.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
I mean, just the messenger.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
Absolutely. Now, lastly, we have the witch killing in Queens.
What year twenty twenty two?
Speaker 2 (49:26):
What sery recent?
Speaker 1 (49:28):
The murder of anatorres so a recent crime in New York,
showed how deeply some people's fear of taro in the
occult can be. Anna Torres fifty one was a neighborhood
psychic and a tarot card reader in Queens. She was
shot dead at her front door in May twenty twenty two.
(49:48):
The suspect, forty one, Giuseppe Canzani. He confessed and bizarrely
claimed that Torres was a witch who had cursed him.
I see in his delusion, he believed that the tarot
card reading mother, whose own son, by the way, was
(50:12):
a New York City police officer, oh had tried to
kill him via supernatural means, so to stop the curse,
he knocked on her door in Ozone Park and shot
her point blank range, killing the innocent woman. The man
then calmly surrendered at the police precinct, still insisting that
(50:36):
they I'm not sure who they is tried to kill me.
I don't know if he means her in the mystical
forces or whatever with magic. So this pretty damn sad
case also again highlights the fact that people like people
believe in this to an extent that is dangerous. Yes,
(50:57):
very good, very good. That is sort of it in
terms of the history and the basics of taro.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
Could I ask something.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
I would hope not, but what is it?
Speaker 2 (51:10):
Could you discuss the difference in pulling something upside down?
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Yes? What a good question?
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Wow? Yes, when you're hearing a lot of things.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Too, reversals. Yes, So like a reversal is showing that
there's some type of delay or blockage or like refusal
for the upright energy.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
I've heard differing thoughts on this that some readers do
not count like they don't, they won't do it right.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
I think the thought process behind that, from what I've heard,
is like, especially if you're just starting out, that's already
seventy eight cards to kind of keep in mind, right,
Doubling that like for I think it's more for the reader.
Doubling that is like a little intense. So but I
(52:07):
think that for the most people that I follow, like
on TikTok and YouTube and stuff, most of them are
reading reversals because it makes the It makes the reading
more intricate. If you're like, oh, see, I like here's
a blockage, Like you know, you have a big decision
to make, but you're avoiding it, versus oh, you've got
(52:28):
a decision to make, like you're leaving it right there
right Saying that you're avoiding it definitely gives it up
more precise type of reading before we end, I guess
you don't have any clothing?
Speaker 2 (52:40):
I do have.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
I always say that clothing thoughts, closing thoughts.
Speaker 2 (52:44):
I know my Crystal comparison to it's pretty much that.
Speaker 1 (52:51):
I think, all right, well, I didn't need a card
to tell me that actually that you don't have any,
But I asked anyway, all right on that note, everybody,
stay safe and stay chill.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
Bye everybody, right.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
Goodbye everyone, Thank you, thank you you've just listened to Chilworthy.
Thank you for joining us on this latest episode. While
we strive to keep our discussions engaging and lighthearted, we
(53:29):
also wanted to take a moment to acknowledge the real
lives and events that are at the heart of these stories.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
We try to approach each topic with a sense of
curiosity and respect fully aware of the impact these events
have had on the individuals and the reloved ones. Our
goal is to honor their memories by keeping their stories
alive and shedding light on the mysteries that surround them.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate,
and leave a review, and don't forget to join us
on the next episode of Chillworthy.
You're listening to Chillworthy.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
A podcast we're two best friends discuss mysteries, murders, and
anything in between for your enjoyment.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
So if you're ready to hear some chilling and unsettling cases,
you're in the right place, happy listening. Welcome back to
another episode of Chillworthy with Brent and Talia. Hi, everybody,
so we're doing a back to back episode, which means
(00:37):
a rather short intro unless you have do you have
a happy thing? Did you come with two? I didn't
either think of that. That's all right.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
We could say what we're grateful for.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
I'm just happy to have you.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Well, everybody, you heard that here and now? Yeah, exactly, Wow,
very nice. I know wow, and I am very grateful
for you, all right, and to have you.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Thank you, thank you, no, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Marmala looks wind blow and the way you just pet
her in the.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Way her ear insisting on sitting like this. But whatever
on you likes it.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
She's your little helper. Ashley was watching that gg's episode
this morning. It's gonna be Blanche's little helper. Yes, oh
my gosh, speaking of that, I don't know if I
said this to you before we did the last episode
or if it was on the air. But how Shark
(01:44):
Week ended yesterday?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Did I certainly?
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I said it, okay, So that just reminded me though
one of the shows, like you know, the scientists were
talking and whatever, and they named one of the sharks Blanche,
after the man's aunt, Blanche, who sounded like a mixture
of Blanche and like Sophia probably. Oh my my mouth
was gaping opened. I just like frozen, like spun to
(02:09):
Ashley with my mouth gaping opened. How wonderful.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I can't even imagine the excitement that filled that room.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Well, it was, you know, just coming out of me. Yeah, right, yeah,
Ashley was a good sport.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Well I think that's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
A shark named Blanche. I mean, come on, you know
who I didn't catch? Catch catch any episode mention of
Mary Lee, who I told you about.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I do? Yeah, remember her?
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Now, now you know who I'm talking about when I say.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Right, oh boy, oh boy. All right, So today's episode
or one of today's episodes, I should what do you
mean you have to to do? It's a lot lighter
than our previous episode. So this is not a true crime,
(03:07):
This is not a place, This is not a creature.
So what's left everybody? I'm sort of a doll. No no, no,
no no, a bunch of objects that sit together.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Ah, that are kept togethers yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
So I decided, since i'm you know, waste deep in
tarot making, because.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Are going to say wasting away.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Not that waste deep in making all these tarot cards,
I thought, what a nice thing to do to go
over the history of what where did these come from?
What are they? Shaw me? You know, I think a
lot of people only know them from what they see
in like cute you know, little movies of like and
(04:03):
it's and it's always the same cards that are pulled,
you know, death, is that true? You know? They love
they love the most obvious ones, and they always make
it sound like death actually means death and blah blah blah. Anyway,
getting on a high horse.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Which I don't remember. I'm pretty sure they're not that
you're saying this, death is one of the cards that
gets pulled, But I don't.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Because it's because people think it's so easy to understand,
So why wouldn't they pull that one versus like the
six of Swords, you know what I'm saying, So.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Not really no, but that's exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Why, right, Okay, So anyway, yeah, I just thought let's
do this. I'm not necessarily saying it's creepy, but it
is very folk glory and stuff of that nature. So so,
like I said, obviously, you know, when you think of taro,
you think of somebody sitting in like a dimly lit
room or sort of like how the Wizard sits in
(05:01):
the Wizard of Oz in his little traveling caravan and
he's got the crystal ball in front of him, and
he's had a table and he's yeah, he's not pulling
cards but.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
A beaded curtain. Right, you have that either, but right.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Right, stuff like that, So that's what we think about. So,
but Taro actually began as a family card game in
the Renaissance.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Get out of Here a family card game? How insane
is that?
Speaker 1 (05:28):
How crazy? Old Maid?
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Oh my gosh, I did love that game and.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Go Fish of course absolutely.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I remember being very disappointed, like in childhood because we
had like a GoFish specific deck with a little fish
I know. And then I don't know how old I was,
like probably less than ten, and someone was like, oh,
you can do go fish with like a regular card deck,
and I was like so disappointed in this, like instead
(05:59):
of wow, like another possibility. I was so bummed. I thought,
what a drag? How can you play it without a
specific go fish.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I thought you were going to say, like somebody burned
it or something like that.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
God where my family.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Or whatever, like by accident like or it got thrown
away or somebody spilled red wine over. I don't freaking know, right,
but me, okay, all right, So here we go origins
and history of the Tarot. Now Tarot is spelled T
A R O T like tarot, right, but nobody ever
(06:33):
says the teat so we all know.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
So I thought you met when you said nobody ever
says the tea that it's actually errot instead of tarot.
I didn't know which tea you met. And then I thought,
oh my god, I've been saying it wrong this whole time.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
You do errot, right, I thought, I did you do?
All right? So tarot starts now again, this is like,
so there are I think there are a lot of
differ different theories about where it might have popped up. First,
I'm just going off of what I could find. Keep
that in mind, But so it's mostly believed that it
(07:10):
started in medieval Europe. So playing cards first arrived in
Europe around the thirteen seventies. Wow, I mean, that's pretty
freaking nuts. Now it seems like these playing cards came
Now I'm not saying the tarot cards. I'm saying to
(07:32):
the playing cards that started to show up in Europe.
They came from Egypt. So then from those cards, taro
apparently emerged a few decades later, as like I said,
this fun little card game. So historical records are showing
that tarot decks were invented in northern Italy Pions in
(07:58):
the early fifteenth century. So it says the Duke of
Milan's court, for example, he commissioned beautifully hand painted decks
around fourteen forty. Wow. So these are old as heck, oldies,
very oldies, old o's. That's an oldie.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Ah, you're quoting someone questionable.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Now go ahead, all right. So these early tarot decks,
they were used to play a trick taking game called
taro Chi Tricks for kids trcc HI. And they're saying
(08:49):
that it's similar to bridge, right, So they were so
they were not doing this for any kind of divination
or you know, predicting the future or anything like that.
It was like playing a game game.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Now, riddle me right, you have or have not played Bridge?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
No?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I haven't, me neither. Do you know how it works? No,
me neither, But I've always been curious. That's also and
now and then that's what one of the grandmothers plays.
She's late for her bridge game. I'm pretty sure that's
the name.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, I mean, what's that other one that I was
playing for a while? No, no, I don't remember.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Where were you playing it?
Speaker 1 (09:30):
I would go to like Michael's and and you know
he it's not part cheesy.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
G loved that. That was a big game in our family.
Oh you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (09:41):
You what was?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
And this was also a big thing in our family. Peanockle.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yes, that's it. Yes, I played it for a while.
Don't remember anything about it now.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
The Italians like that as well.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Fine, interesting yeah sos in.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Their card games apparently apparently right, although they came from
the Egyptians. True, but in my head, I see Italians.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Okay. So what made the Taro unique was that there
was this addition of a special fifth suit, so instead
of the four suits, there were five suits, and this
fifth suit had twenty two pictures and they were originally
called the triumphsat so they were set on top of
(10:32):
the standard four suits in a deck of cards. So
each of these cards had like a unique allegorical image.
So there were people like an emperor, there were people
like the lovers, there was somebody who represented death. And
this was likely because it drew on the medieval ideas
(10:53):
of basically like the procession of life, you know, like
the fool is the beginning when you're brand new to
life and the lovers, and then you know, as you
continue on, like I mean, death doesn't actually mean death,
but it could mean like the ending of something and
(11:15):
the transformation to something new, so blah blah blah. So
they just thought that this is what it was like depicting.
So so these games spread across Europe, and I guess
even today it's still played as a game, not as
a fortune telling thing in parts of France, Italy and elsewhere.
(11:36):
But for a long time, taro's purpose was purely playful
and social. So now, around the late eighteenth century, occultists
in France quote unquote discovered that taro could be used
for divination. So in seventeen eighty one. I am not
(11:59):
going to be able to say this name. Do your
best antone court de Gebelen, good job. Thanks published an
essay that claimed that the Tarot's imagery was ancient Egyptian
wisdom in disguise and saying with no evidence. Ps Luna agrees, saying,
(12:26):
with no evidence that Taro descended from the mystical book
of Toth, which is Thho thh and this was a
mystical book from Egyptian folklore. So with this new found claim,
I guess it launched a wave of exotic stories and theories.
(12:50):
So people then started throwing out some real bangers do zs,
like oh, these cards actually came they you know, they
survived from the Lost City of Atlantis Atlantis, or the
Lost Library of Alexandria, a lot of lost things, yeah,
or the secret knowledge of the Roma Travelers otherwise known
(13:14):
as the Gypsies. So just a lot of like you know,
it's like, oh, I can I can top that? How
about they came from you know that kind of stuff.
But anyway, regardless though, they are obviously steeped in a
lot of history, regardless of where they came from. So
then there was a French occultist Jean Baptiste Elliott. So
(13:42):
he was the first to publish a guide to using
the tarot for specifically fortune telling. Now, this happened in
seventeen eighty five. I feel like I'm giving a lecture.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
I was going to say, I feel like I'm sitting
in like a college course, a class, whatever.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
I just want a little PowerPoint and a pointer. So
this man who published this, he designed one of the
earliest esoteric tarot decks with added Egyptian like motifs. And
in the nineteenth century there were mystics like Ellie fast Levy,
(14:20):
a lot of tricky ones I know who further linked
the tarot to other esoteric systems. And again they were
talking about those twenty two cards that popped up like
the fifth Missing Suit or whatever. And then they started
to connect them to astrology symbols and a bunch of
stuff like all of this is like it's starting to
(14:41):
get more like mystical and less go fish, you know
what I mean.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
I do see what you mean.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
So now those twenty two cards, they're called the major Arkana.
So and again these these major Arkana twenty two cards
were seen as symbols of life symbols of life and
spiritual forces and lessons learned through life. Okay, yeah, sure
(15:07):
so that so again it was like, you know, temperance
is one of them, and that talks about like like
not living in either of the extremes, you know, like
you don't have to be easy, does right? You know
you should pull that card sometimes.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I should do it before every time we.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Give tattoo, like tell you just pat your tattoo, pat
it down.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
A tattoo.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
So anyway, now into the twentieth century, taro gained huge
popularity in the English speaking countries, and I guess this
is in large part to the work of the Hermetic
Order of the Golden Dawn. Right. So in nineteen oh nine,
(16:04):
Arthur Edward Wait, which is an important person for this,
an artist Pamela Coleman Smith. Together they created the famous
Rider Wait Smith deck. That's the deck that like everybody
knows if you know, terror as.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Their traditional day one one say that again the original like, well,
certainly not the original, there were two centuries before that,
but the most commonly depicted deck of imagery.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yes, yes, yes, so they designed this and they designed
it specifically for divination, and they used detailed symbolic illustrations
on all of the seventy eight cards. Now that is
sort of important because there's a lot of decks out
there that will do the first twenty two cards they'll
(17:03):
have these symbolic pictures, but then the next cards, like
the other four sets of cards, all they are is
like pictures of just five cups for the five of cups,
not a picture depicting what the five cups is about
for anyone interested in my decks do not do that.
They have pictures for every single card anyway. So but
(17:29):
that's important because, like I said, some other decks don't
do that. So this deck introduced imagery for the minor
arcana cards as well. So it was making the interpretations
more intuitive because you actually had the picture there and
you could get something out of it instead of just
seeing a picture of five cups and trying to remember
what that's supposed to mean. So the writer Weight deck
(17:54):
that became like the blueprint for the modern tarot decks
and readings that we all know, well people who know
Tarrell would think of. Then have you ever heard of
Alistair Crowley? Me? I think he lived on Lockness Just
so you know how embarrassing for me, Yeah, I was
(18:14):
gonna say right for him. For him, he was also
a little out there. Was he the.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Kookie man in the documentary.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
I think he was a kookie man in with white hair.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
There may have been several in that, but okay, So
he he was like like an occultist and stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
He was like known to I think mingle with demons
and wow things scary stuff. But I think his house
was on locked nest. I'm almost sure of that.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
But anyway, I would never get anything done living there.
I would just literally stare out at the water constantly.
I would not do anything else.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
So this guy, he produced his own dak, the Toth
or Thoth I don't know, tarot deck. And this was
done in the nineteen forties, so now we're really getting
closer to modern times. And this had a bunch of
occult symbolism. Now, actually, I don't know if I've ever
seen this deck. I've only ever seen the ones that
(19:18):
I just talked about, yeah, or ones that are just
made up by people. But like, I don't know if
I've ever seen the one that they just described here.
But now today's tarot decks they come in countless artistic styles,
but they usually follow the same structure, which is what
I told you about twenty two big cards and then
four suits of the smaller cards. So while some people
(19:39):
still are big into the tarots like mystical reputation, others
have kind of transformed into a more psychological or just
a creative way to sort of do like self reflection
and like you know, so not necessarily as magically inclined,
but like anybody can use it to just be intuitive
(20:03):
to themselves and to help them work through things, which
I think sounds nice. I agree right now. Of course,
you know, you know some people are like, oh it's evil,
you know, all about doom and gloom and blah blah
blah blah blah. As you can see, I don't prescribe
(20:26):
to them. So all right, subscribe? Oh is it? What
is prescribe medication? Yeah? But isn't that as something else?
Speaker 2 (20:35):
I don't think. But like subscribing to a belief is
like subscribing to the news.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Is prescribing telling someone to believe something.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Like that makes sense?
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Heard? It is all right anyway.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Whatever blows your hair back?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
All right? So, like I told you the standard tarot deck,
I want to go through what it is a little
bit now, so and again this is the standard. But
so the standard tarot deck consists of seventy eight cards,
and they are split into two main sections, the major
Arcana and the minor Arkana. So the word arkana, do
you have any clue what that means? Now?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
When I was just going to say how much I
love the sound of.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
It, So translated it means secrets or mysteries. So the
major secrets and mysteries and the minor secrets and mysteries.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Right, So these terms were first coined by occultists in
the nineteenth century because tarot players before that they didn't
use those types of terminology. So each section of the
deck has a different role in a different symbolism. So
for the major Arkana, the twenty two cards, they're not
(21:46):
part of any suit, right, So these are in the
twenty two they're the ones that have the most iconic
symbols that you would see in movies, the fool, the magician,
the high priestess, the lover is the death card, and
so on. So in the early games when they were
using this, these were the triumph cards that could like
(22:08):
trump any card in the suit. Basically, whatever the hell
that's supposed to mean. But in a tarot reading, the
major arcana are said to represent the big archetypal themes
and life lessons, so like the big significant spiritual or
karma influences in life. So that's kind of like what
(22:31):
the point of the big cards are. So we have
them as the following, the Fool, the Magician, the High Priestess,
the Empress, the Emperor, the High Refint, the Lovers, the Chariot, Strength,
the Hermit, the Wheel of Fortune, Justice, the hanged Man, Death, Temperance,
(22:54):
the Devil, the Tower, the Star, the Moon, the Sun, Judgment,
and last but not lea, the world. So and like
I said, each of those cards has like a specific symbolism.
So like the Fool, he's all about beginnings and being
open hearted and having innocence, like that's where everybody's journey starts,
(23:16):
let's say. And the world at the other end signifies
completion and wholeness and the fulfillment of the journey. So
like now you've you're at the end of the journey.
So so now the minor arkana, which there are fifty
six of those, they are divided into four suits just
(23:37):
like normal playing cards. Do you know, the four suits,
I think you might know at least one, and cups
and swords, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Pinnacles, yeah, kinockles.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Pentacles, pencacles. Okay, you're only missing one.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I don't think I know this. Daggers.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
No nobody ever uses a dagger like I just did.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Then carry potter, oh wan, thank you. So each of
these have numbered cards one through ten, and then they
have the court cards. And so the four are the wands,
the cups, the swords, and the pinnacles. So each suit
(24:28):
addresses a certain like realm of life. Okay, so the
wands they are associated with the element of fire, and
they deal with energy, inspiration, drive, that kind of thing,
you know, passion, piss. The cups they correspond to water,
(24:49):
and they represent emotions and intuition.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Love, very nice, absolutely, I love the swords. What do
you think they correspond to danger no hair hair air,
So they symbolize intellect, communication, conflict, challenges, right, And the
(25:16):
pinnacles are kind of unique because everything else is sort
of like intangible. Yea, the pinnacles are all tangible. It's
like like earthly things, material money.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Success, well, monetary success work, like the physical world, things
that you can kind of touch, a little bit more
measure things of that nature.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
So the minor arkana instead of how the major are
kind of focused on like big things, the minor arcana
are like more like day to day matters, a little details. Yes, yes, yes, So,
as I told you, there's court cards also, So within
each of the four suits, they are are typically the
following the King, the Queen, the Knight, and the page pag.
(26:05):
So these court cards are like the equivalent of what
we think of when we think of like the King,
Queen and the jack in a regular playing deck. That's
what I was thinking, right, except with the extra person
of the page. So these yeah, so these court cards
represent usually people in your life or you, you know what
(26:27):
I mean. So like the other cards don't are more
like situations. These are like, oh, I see somebody with
the energy of this card, like the page of wands.
So like for example, the page of any suit. Right,
it's usually seen as a youthful or a novice person
(26:51):
because pages, as they're just starting out, they represent like beginnings, curiosity,
like kind of like youth, and then we move up.
So then the knights are all about like action. They're
the ones that are out there in the world doing
the stuff. And then the queens they are like they
are the ones that embody like maturity and understanding, so
(27:14):
they kind of have like the mastery of whatever it is.
So if it's like the Queen of Cups, like they
have mastery over their emotions, like they've learned to have
mastery over whatever they represent.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I know, apples and oranges.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Sure. And then last the kings they represent like the
authority and the leadership in again in that so maybe
the kings lead like they're like a very uh they're
if like it's the King of Swords, he's like a
very intellectual leader. You know, he doesn't lead based off
(27:51):
of emotion. He leads based off of intellect. Do you
get what I'm saying?
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (27:56):
I think you do as well. Okay, so you know,
so that would be like if you if you were
having a reading done and then they say the King
of Swords came up and and oh this is very
important to say, very important. There there is no gender
in Taro. So like if you're doing a reading and
(28:19):
you pull the Queen of Cups, that doesn't mean that
that can't represent a male in your life in because
it would be a male who who has mastery over
his emotions doesn't have to be a female who has
mastery over her emotions just because you picked the Queen
of Cups. It's just showing the different levels.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
I didn't know that, I mean.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
So I'm just saying, yeah, you know. So that's why
it's like if you pull the Queen of Cups, but
somebody's grandfather is very has a lot of that energy,
well then yeah you're not like, oh damn almost, That's
what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Absolutely, So now you know the breakdown of this now,
and I won't be quizzing.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
You, Thank goodness, I'd love to.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
All right, all right, so now how do these cards
all come together to like actually do this like in practice? So,
tarot reading is an art and a skill that combines
knowledge of the card meanings, but it also has intuition
and storytelling. So like a typical tarot reading begins with
(29:40):
somebody asking a question or like some type of intention.
So this person is often called the querrant.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
I never heard that.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
No, So this person is probably seeking guidance about like
a life situation, or maybe they just want like a
general insight. So the reader, which could be querran themselves,
like you can of course read for yourself, right, or
it could be a different person. They shuffle the deck
thoroughly while they're you know, thinking about what the person
(30:12):
is asking or like getting like getting the energy flowing
and twisting about fiddling right. So traditionally, and I say
this traditionally because it's like a lot of the times
now this can be done on zoom, you know, like
we can we have technology to read for people in
Australia if we want, whereas back then it wasn't that way.
(30:36):
But traditionally the person who was asking the question would
be the one that after the deck has been shuffled,
they would like cut the cards in half the deck
and half, like they're the ones that make that that
move to do that. So that helps to impart their
energy and helps like the randomization of the cards. So
(31:00):
then the cards get drawn and they're laid out in
a specific pattern, which is called a that I don't
know what do you do with peanut butter on bread?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
So I do know spread.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
I was gonna say, no, you don't sew it.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yes, I did know that, son of a gun.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Well you got it. FI. So each position in the
tarot spread has like a different meaning or an aspect,
So like you might pull like three cards and one
might represent past influences and another might represent like your
current challenge, and then the last one might represent like
advice for you moving forward. So that's just you know,
(31:42):
and you can make up your own spreads like it
could be like today, tomorrow, and even yesterday, you know
what I mean? Like, it doesn't matter. You could do
whatever you want Wednesday, Tuesday and sitter Day. But it
doesn't have to be time either. It could be like
what am I avoiding? What am I What should I
(32:06):
learn to accept? And what should I work on? Throwing
my hands up in the air. But you know what
I mean real quick?
Speaker 2 (32:13):
You just said when you mentioned Wednesday, I meant to
say this. Did you see that they're coming out with
a season two? You did or did not watch?
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Yeah? I watched it.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
It was all right, Yeah, but yeah August new season.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Okay, Yeah, So, like I told you, into was intuation.
Intuation like Elmer Fudd intuition of rabbits. Intuition plays a
key role in a good tarot reading because each card
has its core meanings. But like an experienced tarot reader
(32:47):
also pays attention to which cards are speaking to them
in the moment their gut impressions.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
What's your gut telling exactly what.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Does your gut say? And it can even be like
what card next to the other card? You know, like
I can't of course they don't have an example right now,
but you know, maybe like if there's a card that
represents income and there's a card that represents decision making,
(33:17):
and if they're together, it's like, oh, you've got a
decision to make about where are you're going to get
your income? Right? Like are you going to keep this job?
Are you going to switch jobs? Is there a venture
you're going to try to start? Like it's like, so
it's not just the cards singular, it's the cards and
how they interact with one another. And you're welcome. And
it can even go as deep as if all the
(33:37):
cards have pictures on them. If one card person is
sitting there and he's looking at the other car, oh shit,
that might mean you're being like you're being drawn to
that energy. And if he's looking away from that card,
it might mean like you're moving away from conflict or
you know what I mean. Like there's a lot of
stuff a lot.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Of way more to this than I realized, of course.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
So I just want to tell you about one a
very common spread. Tell me, but it's ten cards. Ten now, yes,
So this is called the Celtic cross spread. So if
you've ever seen like a tarot reading done by a professional,
a lot of the times they'll use the Celtic cross.
(34:28):
So it's this ten card spread, and it offers a
comprehensive overview of a situation. So card one is the
present situation. Card two is the challenge or the influence
that's being put on the current situation. The third card
is the past, the fourth is the recent past. The
(34:51):
fifth is the goal or the conscious aim. The sixth
card is the near future. Card seven, this one, I
think pretty interesting, is the queerance self image. So it's
how the queerance sees themselves. You're getting turned on, no,
(35:11):
I'm getting stertled. Card eight is the external influences, so
people or circumstances around the quarrant that affect the situation.
Card nine is then the hopes and the fears, and
card ten is the outcome, which is like the most
(35:32):
likely result or resolution. And of course this is all
going on the basis that you're thinking you're gonna be
predicting something like if you're doing it more for reflection,
it's probably a little bit different, you know, But like
I'm just saying, you know, it depends on what your
belief system is around the taroll, what your intention is.
(35:52):
So then like when you go over this, it basically
gives a three hundred and sixty degree look at the
person who the cards being read for, like their issue,
So the internal, the external factors, passed in the future, hopes, obstacles,
everything is considered. So it's like a holistic spread, which
I think sounds very nice. Same I think it sounds
(36:12):
very involved.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Very involved, but like well rounded, but a lot of.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Info, absolutely a lot, and I think it would be
I think that would be such a fun experience to
have your cards read by somebody who has like twenty
years experience, like somebody who's just it's like second nature
to them and they just spit it out right. They
don't have to think about it as much as like,
you know, which is one of the reasons why I
think I said this to you. But like with the
(36:37):
cards that I'm making, they have like my ocean deck
has a phrase on them, because I think it's very
unmagical to be like, oh, let me read your cards.
Then you pull when you say hold on, let me
get the book. No need. It takes away all the
mysticism around it to be like okay, well on page
(36:57):
three B go to my guys, it says like, that's
not that's not the vibe. I'm not looking for that vibe.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
Right.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
So obviously, like I said, many other spreads exist and
you can just make them up.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Also, so you can literally like wonky shapes, not shapes
like wonky spreads. I guess, like just literally.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Whatever, literally, what should I have for lunch? Whatever? You know,
it comes up with a card that shows what you
you know all about like personal reward, and you're like, well,
I do love a sandwich. If you were doing this,
you love salm, so you know what I mean? Just
a loaf of cheese.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Can you imagine?
Speaker 1 (37:43):
I can?
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Actually you've seen me eat it.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Right side note, I have seen you eat it.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
That's what I meant.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, And this was well, this had to be semi
early on wherever wherever it goes. No, no, no, no, no,
what I'm about to say. What I'm about to say
when I saw you eat shreaded cheese like a bowl
of cereal. That was jerring.
Speaker 2 (38:08):
I remember one of my it was right around that time.
My boss saw me do it as well, but I
had it in a container and she thought I was
eating shredded carrots nursery.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
Well you should have let her believe it. So like
we were like we were saying, it's like it's you know,
it depends on what you think. Is it magic or
is it self reflection? So it's like the ant. Like
I said, the answer really depends on who you ask
and what you believe. So from like a balanced perspective,
(38:45):
taro can literally be a bit of both. It just
largely depends on the mindset of the user. So on
one hand, taro has historically been lumped in with crystal
balls and Oiji boards bills. I love Chris balls, but
don't bring that ship into my house, meaning Wei boards
get out of here. I don't ever want those in here.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
You would not want that ei now never. You would
literally say leave that outside.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Yes, I don't want it ever. Wow said what I said.
I do feel very strong.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
I hear you, I see you, and I hear you.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Oh, butts of fingers dropped crystal.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Well, I did that. You got very upset. It happens.
That's that silver machine Whaley obsidian. Yes, it's freaking beautiful,
like the side of the moon.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Back to this. So, it's true that some tarot readers
do approach the cards in a psychic ori intuitive way,
feeling like the cards are drawn not at random, but
rather guided by like the universe, which is nice. You know,
nothing wrong with that, I agreed. So these practitioners might
say that the cards connect them to their higher cell
or like spirit guides, and that they help to provide
(39:59):
ants from a magical quality serendipitous. Right. So then, on
the other hand, there are some modern Tarot philosophies that
often emphasize that the cards are less about foretelling fixed
fates and more about revealing patterns and possibilities. So there's
(40:20):
a woman, Claire Burgos, and she says, Taro in my view,
isn't a crystal ball that tells the future, but instead
it's a practical tool for self discovery, healing, and empowerment.
So when we draw on interpret tarot cards, what we're
really doing is reflecting on our own lives. We look
at our own choices our feelings and patterns, but we
(40:43):
do it through the symbolic lens of the cards. So
in this sense, taro is often more about guidance than prediction.
So it's more like, you know, if you continue on
this path, this might be the likely outcome, but it
like empowers you with the insight to change your course
depending on if you agree or disagree. So you know,
(41:06):
so I feel like one of them is like somebody
telling you something, and the other one is you pulling
out what you need from the cards, because you could,
you know, draw a card and people could get very
different impressions of it depending on what's going on in
their life there, what their mindset is, what their personality is,
(41:27):
like that kind of thing. So there's also this psychologist
Carl jung Ju Energy, and he spoke of the taro
as representing these archetypes, which are like universal symbols, like
we said, and he said that it's like this this
(41:48):
gateway to open communication with your conscious and unconscious because again,
like what comes up for you, maybe what's coming up
for you is coming from the unconscious. So so like
if you see the devil card, for example, it might
force you to acknowledge that you've got an unhealthy attachment
to something or there's like some fear that's holding you
(42:09):
back in your life. Because the devil represents self imposed bondage. Wow,
you know, like a smoker, right, very unhealthy, absolutely, but
they like it. They like what they like, right.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
So no offense to any of our certainly not right.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
It is an example, right, So remember how I was
talking about the death card for example, So like Taro's
reputation for predicting doom, like I said, in all those
movies the death card, everybody's pulling the death card. Somebody's
gonna die. That's a huge misunderstanding because in actual practice,
(42:52):
the death card more often signifies transformation and the ending
of a chapter, not the ending of a life. And
the death card doesn't even have to mean it's the
ending of something to start something negative. It could mean
to start something positive. So I'm just saying it's not
(43:12):
literal death. So you know, like I said, the tarot
can feel magical, but it doesn't have to be supernatural,
got it. So I think that's I think that's wonderful. Agreed. Now,
I also looked up some tarot cards that happened to
(43:34):
be in true crime stories.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Oh, in like what way, Well, we're about crime.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Scene find out. So, for example, the death card from
the rider Wait tarot deck, right again, we said, one
of the most notorious cards. Well, there was a US
case involving arrow cards. So the DC Beltway snipers left
(44:06):
a morbid calling card. They did. Yes, there was a
thirteen year old who was wounded by a sniper at
a Maryland school and investigators found the death tarot card
near the scene, and there was a message scrawled upon it.
(44:28):
And the message said, quote unquote call me God.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Was this the older man and the younger guy? Was that?
Were those the DC snipers.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
John Allen Mohammed and Lee Boyd Milville.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Yes, I had no memory of that with these cards,
so and foolish of them. They were not using the
death card correctly.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Very foolish, foolish. So that handwritten tarot card. It was
basically like this taunt, reflecting the killer's twisted sense of power.
And police initially kept the card secret, hoping to have
a dialogue with a sniper, but it got leaked to
the media within a day, so the bizarre clue only
(45:15):
deepened the public intrigue until the pair was caught, and
to this day, the death card with the call me
God remains one of the most chilling crime calling cards
in modern true crime. Lowre. Wow, it's a literal calling card.
You get what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
I do.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Next, we have a tarot confession of Christopher Wade in
twenty fourteen. So, in twenty fourteen, a nineteen year old
Leah Porter disappeared in Colorado. Her friend, Christopher Wade, eventually
confessed to her murder, and he later revealed an unusual
(45:59):
reason for coming. Wade was obsessed with Tarot cards, and
he claimed that tarot readings compelled him to admit his crime.
Speaker 3 (46:07):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
So, in an interview from prison, Christopher said, the cards
were saying to me that my guilt over the murder
would destroy me unless I let it out. He had
even confessed first to the victim's brother, allegedly because of
what the tarot cards showed him, before turning himself in
to nine to one one. So, tragically, Leah Porter's body
(46:35):
has never been found, although Wade did lead the police
to some of her belongings on.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
He wouldn't lead them to her body.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
I agree, but or if it's.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
No longer able to be reached.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
And I don't have that information, so many who knows
what the hell happened there?
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Right? But right?
Speaker 1 (46:57):
So then this one was in two thousand in five,
a case that mixed fortune telling and vengeance. So there
was this California psychic and Ha Jade Smith.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
H a Jade.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Yes Ha. Then parent quotes Jade Smith, So I guess
Ha Smith.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
Yeah. She was a popular fortune teller in Orange County
and she was like a big name in the Vietnamese community.
So she was consulted by a client, Tanya Nelson, who
desperately wanted to win back an ex lover. When Jade's
tarot and palm reading advised Nelson to quote unquote get
(47:48):
over it and accept that this relationship was over, Nelson
became enraged. So in April of two thousand and she
traveled from North Carolina to Westminster, California, and brutally murdered
(48:08):
this tarot reader, Jade Smith and Jade's adult daughter.
Speaker 2 (48:15):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
They were stabbed multiple times and in a very ritual
like touch. Their faces and hands were covered in white paint.
So Nelson was convicted in twenty ten of masterminding this
double murder, and prosecutors noted that Jade, who was known
(48:39):
as miss ha you know, she did cardon palm readings
for a living and was renowned for her skill. And
this was a talent that ultimately gave unwelcome news to
a very very dangerous client. So you know, and I
guess you know, really that is something to think about.
(49:00):
You're telling people, I agree some You're telling people some stuff, man,
and if they disagree with.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
It, they may not be a fan of.
Speaker 1 (49:09):
I don't think so right, You're.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
I mean, just the messenger.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
Absolutely. Now, lastly, we have the witch killing in Queens.
What year twenty twenty two?
Speaker 2 (49:26):
What sery recent?
Speaker 1 (49:28):
The murder of anatorres so a recent crime in New York,
showed how deeply some people's fear of taro in the
occult can be. Anna Torres fifty one was a neighborhood
psychic and a tarot card reader in Queens. She was
shot dead at her front door in May twenty twenty two.
(49:48):
The suspect, forty one, Giuseppe Canzani. He confessed and bizarrely
claimed that Torres was a witch who had cursed him.
I see in his delusion, he believed that the tarot
card reading mother, whose own son, by the way, was
(50:12):
a New York City police officer, oh had tried to
kill him via supernatural means, so to stop the curse,
he knocked on her door in Ozone Park and shot
her point blank range, killing the innocent woman. The man
then calmly surrendered at the police precinct, still insisting that
(50:36):
they I'm not sure who they is tried to kill me.
I don't know if he means her in the mystical
forces or whatever with magic. So this pretty damn sad
case also again highlights the fact that people like people
believe in this to an extent that is dangerous. Yes,
(50:57):
very good, very good. That is sort of it in
terms of the history and the basics of taro.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
Could I ask something.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
I would hope not, but what is it?
Speaker 2 (51:10):
Could you discuss the difference in pulling something upside down?
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Yes? What a good question?
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Wow? Yes, when you're hearing a lot of things.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Too, reversals. Yes, So like a reversal is showing that
there's some type of delay or blockage or like refusal
for the upright energy.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
I've heard differing thoughts on this that some readers do
not count like they don't, they won't do it right.
Speaker 1 (51:45):
I think the thought process behind that, from what I've heard,
is like, especially if you're just starting out, that's already
seventy eight cards to kind of keep in mind, right,
Doubling that like for I think it's more for the reader.
Doubling that is like a little intense. So but I
(52:07):
think that for the most people that I follow, like
on TikTok and YouTube and stuff, most of them are
reading reversals because it makes the It makes the reading
more intricate. If you're like, oh, see, I like here's
a blockage, Like you know, you have a big decision
to make, but you're avoiding it, versus oh, you've got
(52:28):
a decision to make, like you're leaving it right there
right Saying that you're avoiding it definitely gives it up
more precise type of reading before we end, I guess
you don't have any clothing?
Speaker 2 (52:40):
I do have.
Speaker 1 (52:40):
I always say that clothing thoughts, closing thoughts.
Speaker 2 (52:44):
I know my Crystal comparison to it's pretty much that.
Speaker 1 (52:51):
I think, all right, well, I didn't need a card
to tell me that actually that you don't have any,
But I asked anyway, all right on that note, everybody,
stay safe and stay chill.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
Bye everybody, right.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
Goodbye everyone, Thank you, thank you you've just listened to Chilworthy.
Thank you for joining us on this latest episode. While
we strive to keep our discussions engaging and lighthearted, we
(53:29):
also wanted to take a moment to acknowledge the real
lives and events that are at the heart of these stories.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
We try to approach each topic with a sense of
curiosity and respect fully aware of the impact these events
have had on the individuals and the reloved ones. Our
goal is to honor their memories by keeping their stories
alive and shedding light on the mysteries that surround them.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate,
and leave a review, and don't forget to join us
on the next episode of Chillworthy.
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