Lost in the Cloud Forest: The Mystery of Kris Kremers & Lisanne Froon

In April 2014, best friends and Dutch college students Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon set out on what was supposed to be a simple day hike along Panama’s scenic Pianista Trail. Young, adventurous, and eager to explore the vibrant culture and landscape of Central America, they left their host family's home in Boquete with a backpack, a camera, and their phones—never to return.

What followed was a search effort that captivated international headlines and devolved into one of the most unsettling missing persons cases of the last decade. Weeks after their disappearance, a local woman turned in a backpack filled with the girls’ belongings, found in seemingly pristine condition by a riverbank deep in the jungle. Inside were two phones with dozens of failed emergency call attempts—and a camera containing eerie nighttime photographs taken long after they were presumed missing.

In this episode of Chillworthy, we piece together the haunting clues left behind: the disjointed call logs, the cryptic images, and the discovery of bone fragments and belongings scattered miles apart. Was this the result of a tragic accident in an unforgiving wilderness—or do the strange circumstances suggest something more sinister? We’ll explore the official timeline, forensic inconsistencies, and the chilling theories that have kept internet sleuths awake for years. 

Pack your hiking boots—and maybe a second flashlight. Because the jungle doesn’t give up its secrets easily.


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DISCLAIMER The content presented on Chillworthy, including all episodes, transcripts, social media posts, and associated materials, is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only. The podcast does not offer legal, medical, psychological, or professional advice of any kind. While the hosts—Brent and Talia—make a good faith effort to ensure that the information shared is based on publicly available sources and is as accurate as possible at the time of recording, Chillworthy does not guarantee the completeness, timeliness, or reliability of any statements made. Listeners should be aware that cases may involve ongoing legal proceedings or developments that evolve over time. The hosts are not licensed attorneys, journalists, law enforcement professionals, or forensic experts. Opinions expressed in the podcast reflect the personal views of the hosts and do not represent factual determinations or official findings. All individuals named or discussed are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Any resemblance to real individuals or entities, outside of those explicitly named, is purely coincidental. The podcast is not affiliated with or endorsed by any legal authority, news outlet, or investigative body. By listening to Chillworthy, you acknowledge and accept these terms and agree not to hold the hosts or producers liable for any inaccuracies, misstatements, or interpretations derived from the content.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to Chilworthy.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
A podcast where two best friends discuss mysteries, murders, and
anything in between for your enjoyment.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
So if you're ready to hear some chilling and unsettling cases,
you're in the right place, happy listening. Hello, Hello, everyone,
Welcome back to another episode of Chillworthy with Brent and Talia.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Hi everybody, we missed you all last week, Yes we did.
Do you think they missed us?

Speaker 1 (00:43):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
I hope so.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
I hope so, but I don't know if they'll ever
tell us. Okay, So how are you doing?

Speaker 2 (00:52):
You know, I'm stressed and tired.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
How about you same?

Speaker 2 (01:00):
I'm having a rough go at it today, but we're.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
Here, we are, so okay. Some things that I guess
I will start with for once because I don't have
much usually to start with. But I was at the
beach last weekend, as you know, so I did. I
got some book readings done. Let's see what they are. Okay,

(01:25):
So first, the biggest, most impressive thing. Well, so I'm
still doing Misborn and I'm about still halfway through the
second book.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
So I was going to say you told the Chillers
about this or no, but you did.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
I did. It's it's fine, you know. I mean, I'm
not blown away by it, but I'm not. I'm not
disliking it. It's just, you know, it's it's not like
that thrill a minute kind of page their page turner
type of thing. So I'm still in the middle of that,
and once I am done with the actual trilogy, I
will certainly report back. But so what I read while

(02:03):
I was at the beach were the following books.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
How many are we talking?

Speaker 1 (02:09):
Three? Shit?

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Good for you man.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
So the first one, Lucy Foley The Midnight Feast. I
got to go to a book signing with her, purely
by happenstance.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
I'm just going to use that word. Yes, right place,
right time, right.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
I was in a local bookshop down at the beach,
and the woman at that local book shop, which actually,
wait a second, I told her I would say the
name of her store also all right, So the very
nice lady that I met, the owner of Capricious Books.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Love the name.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
Yes, a very cute little bookstore. It's in Ocean Pines, Maryland.
So if anybody is interested in going there or looking
it up, it's c ap r I c HOS Books
in Ocean Pines, Maryland, as I said, So when I

(03:05):
went in there, it was a rainy day at the beach,
and I asked her for some book recommendations, and she
recommended a Lucy Foley book. And I know, of course
you like that.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
I do enjoy that quite a bit.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
And so then after I got the book, she was like, oh,
actually she will be signing a book like in the
next beach town over at their bookshop over the weekend.
And so I bought a ticket and went. And you know,
she was a lovely lady.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
Lucy Foley sounded like a delightful experience from what you said,
Ray of Sunshine, if you will.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
I got my hardcover book that I bought signed, and then.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
You got me a present, yes, and it touched my
heart good. I was having a bed time and you
just hurked me right up.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
So I got the other I got the paperback signed
for telling you, because that was like I had to
buy the ticket and the ticket was the book. So
I had two copies. So but a very lovely paperback
with green tinted pages, painted edges or whatever.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
Freaking beautiful.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
So so anyway, very good book. I would definitely recommend
reading The Midnight Feast. It was a fun, you know,
thrill a minute, multiple perspectives, but I got over that
at this point.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
And that's typical of her books as far as I
can recall the three. Well, I just finished that one.
I'm pretty sure that's always the case. The Paris Apartment
was definitely that way Hunting Party I read so long ago. God,
I loved that book, but pretty sure it was the
same way. You know, the.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
Multiple Oh, I'm sure it is. They love it. H Yeah.
So that and then the other. So then I started
reading this other book by another author who I liked
quite a bit. That was it was called The Thicket
by Noel w And I have no idea how to

(05:11):
say this last name Ihl I No, I'm sorry, Yeah,
ih L I Isle I Ley something. Yeah, so Noel Iley,
We'll say so. Basically, this book is about a it's Halloween.

(05:33):
There's a haunted attraction in a like a local town
that's supposed to be like a really like it's like
nationwide known for being scary and blah blah blah. And
there is like a killer who goes there to be
a real a real killer because I think like the
one of the taglines is like people were here, Yeah,

(05:55):
people will hear you scream, but no one will come
to help you.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
Jesu Loise.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
So it was a very good thriller book, like really
scary scary enough. I don't know how to explain that.
I don't I still don't find books scary quote unquote the.

Speaker 2 (06:11):
Way you're describing it, though, I really would love to
read that around Halloween time, but I don't know if
I can handle it.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
Well, I think you ken, I loved it. It wasn't
a home invasion book. You know, they went out there
to the to the thing, and so like with and
I'm not obviously I'm not giving anything away, but like
the book starts with a murder that happens like the
opening night, but the thing is in like the really
the story happens because the killer goes back again the

(06:39):
next night to do it again. And that's kind of
where the story really picks up.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
And it's the Thicket. It's going to say the Thistle.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
So I would say four out of five for that. Wow,
And then the Lucy Foley book four of five. I
was going to ask you that, yeah, And so then
I really liked the books. So that I read another
one by her, Noel Isle.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
Did we say, m HMMI Lee Isle?

Speaker 1 (07:08):
And this one was called Gray after Dark? You know,
can I.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Stop you quickly? I'm so silly. So our friend sent
me this book the Thicket. I was going to say
that to you, like, I'm pretty sure that name sounds familiar,
but I like didn't look it up as you were
just talking, so I didn't know what the cover looked like.
And then the fact that it has the little Ferris
wheel on the front. Oh yeah, that I was and

(07:32):
I thought, no, wait a minute, and then I already
have it as want to read. Well, it's a good book, Okay, sorry,
go ahead. So Gray after Dark the first book in
a long time that went over four stars to a
four point five. Wow, I'm not exactly sure why. Well
I have that I want to read as well. This
is very fascinating.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
I'm not exactly sure why it scored so high for me,
but I definitely liked it. So this one is about
a woman who's going to be working at like a
summer camp. She's like a triathlete, well a by athlete,
and you know she's in like a very very remote area.
But she again not giving anything away, because this is

(08:14):
in the description. She gets abducted by two mountain men
if you will three.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
I can't believe I have this list that does want
to read.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
And so she gets abducted and then she has to
figure out what to do.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
It says it's a pulse pounding psychological thriller with a
finale that will leave you breathless.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
I wasn't breathless, but I liked it. I mean I
was hooked in. I liked the dynamics of everything, and so,
like I said, something made me put down four point five.
I'm not I don't totally know why. But anyway, this
this author, she's got I think a few books out
and so I don't know, I'm definitely going to read

(08:56):
more of her.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
She also The Grafter Dark, was public in March of
twenty twenty four, and then Ask for Andrea was published
September of twenty twenty four. That's kind of wild room
for Rent published September twenty twenty four. How can that be?
I wonder if something funny?

Speaker 1 (09:11):
Oh I noticed that too, though, that a bunch of
her books were coming out all at the same time.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
So October twenty twenty four none left to tell.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
But I also saw that it was like in one
of her acknowledgments or something in one of the books,
she said she's like a like a small writer, like
she you know, she doesn't have a huge She's not
like Lucy Foley, right, And so she was like, you know,
I really appreciate people getting the word out and blah
blah blah. So I don't know if maybe she like

(09:42):
wasn't getting these published because nobody was like biting, and
then somebody did, and now they're all getting published. I
don't know, good, but I would say to watch it. Well,
the most reachent I mean, watch it, read it.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
I know what you meant. This most recent one that
was published is Such Quiet Girls, which our usual friends
also sent me. Now that one, the description I thought
was a little frightening for me, Like I don't think
I could read.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah, well we'll find out. But anyway, that's what I've
been doing. You've got five minutes left. What do you know.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
I thought, I've just filled my water. I did finish
that audiobook that I was telling you about, the one,
oh yeah, three stars. It was fine, correct started another one.
I can't believe I'm saying that. Also, our friend told
me about this one, and I was sort of like

(10:36):
regretting that I started it as an audiobook once it
got going, But now I'm happy that I did. It's
called The Life We Bury by Alan Eskins. Good, It's fine.
I'm starting to wonder though, if I'm going to say
this about all audiobooks, like I'm never gonna oh.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
Well, give it a second, right, it's a second book
for I know.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
I know, but I'm just worried, like, is this just
a me thing with audiobooks? Okay, now I'm finally listening
to them, but am I ever going to get over
a three with them?

Speaker 1 (11:04):
Like?

Speaker 2 (11:04):
Are they always just going to be like fine, you know,
but I'm only I'm not far at all thirty five
percent in this one.

Speaker 1 (11:12):
Well, you should try to get Gray after Dark on
Libby because maybe you'd.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
Like that one True Good Call or The Thicket.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
Both of them were on Libby and I got them
like instantly almost, because that's what I mean. I don't
think she's a big author yet.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
Right, so you're not on these like crazy wait unless yeah,
which is nice. The Life We Bury is about a
man who is in college and he needs to do
this writing assignment of like an elderly person's life. He
doesn't have though, any living relatives that you know, are
in that age group. So he goes to a retirement
home to see if they have anyone who would be

(11:46):
willing to talk to him. Ends up that this man
who was granted early release from prison for the murder
and rape of a young girl, he has pancreatic cancer.
So he's now in this nursing home, you know, until
he passes away. So that's what it's about. And you know,
you get into the lives of both men and the

(12:09):
dysfunction in both and so far good. You know. I
also started the color purple. I got it. Did I
ever tell you the birthday where Ashley we went to
the bookstore and she yeah, she like set a timer
of I don't know if it was five minutes or
ten minutes, and like as much as I could grab,

(12:30):
like that was what she would get me. Yeah, so
the color purple, she recommended it.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
She had writen, I mean that must be a thrill
a minute, to be honest.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
Are you being funny?

Speaker 1 (12:38):
No? The these I would love day thing or birthday thing.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
I was like, I don't think this book is up
your alley.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
No, I couldn't imagine just being let loose in a bookstore.
Even if it was just a five minute timer, I
could make do, and you know, I think that would
be wonderful.

Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yes, it was. It was quite exhilarating. A woman who
was near us, who was watching me, I think, thought
I was like about to rob the place. But what
are you gonna do? So yeah, the color purple, Alice Walker.
It I didn't know what to expect that book was about,
certainly not what it seems to be about. It's like it's,
at least so far, it's written in letter format. It's

(13:15):
these two sisters and one starts these letters to God
and then I according to the description, they eventually transform
into the one who's originally writing letters. She stops writing
to God and she writes this sister. Major trigger warnings
of a lot like assaults and various types of assault,

(13:42):
just you know, major trigger warnings. Look up if you're
going to start it. But it is excellent so far.
But I'm super early in it.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
I just started it.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
So ten percent Golden Girl, I'm still reading that one
that that's the Seashore author who you never really are
into those. And then I started the Sicilian Inheritance. I'm
almost done with that one now I'm over seventy percent
by Joe Piazza. Such a good book, a lot of
Italian history, Sicilian history, and there's also like a murder

(14:16):
mystery going on within it. And it does flashback though
to like early nineteen hundreds to present day between two
characters who are relatives. And it is such a good book,
so well written. I love it. I love it, I
love it, love it awesome.

Speaker 1 (14:36):
Well, that's all the time we have for today. We
have hit our fifteen minute mark.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
Wait. I did finish and I didn't say.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
This, you better make it quick.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
Now, wait a minute. The Guest List, did I know?
I don't think I said that. I actually finished it
last time because I was still reading it. Okay, it
was very good and Spirit Crossing by William M. Kent Krueger.
I finished that after our last one. Three stars. Fine,
it was fine, It's.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
Fine, fine, yeah, fine and fine.

Speaker 2 (15:08):
The guest List by Lucy Foley. I did actually give
that three stars. Wasn't my favorite of hers, but it
was good and I was surprised by the end. I
did guess some stuff which was a drag, but there
were things that I totally missed and I liked the
surprises good so well written as always by.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
Her, wonderful. All right, so I have the case today. Yeah,
so let's just try to jump into this all right. Now,
today's case is the case of Chris Kremer's and Lussanne

(15:55):
Froun f r o N. So this was a case
that I heard about long before we started doing the podcast,
and it was like, certainly an interesting case and then
I didn't try to tackle it since we started the podcast,
but I figured we could do that now. So, like

(16:18):
I said, these were two people. Chris Kremer's she was
born August ninth, nineteen ninety two. She was twenty one
years old at the time of this case happening, and
she was from the Netherlands. Oh, and then we also

(16:40):
have Lassane Frun She was born September twenty fourth, nineteen
ninety one. She was twenty two years old, and she
was also from the Netherlands. And they were actually like
they lived in the same town. They were roommates at
this time, so they were both they decided that they

(17:03):
were going to do a little trip together and it
wasn't just a vacation though. It was going to be
a vacation plus kind of like a like volunteering thing
like they were you know, yes, yes, so this was
happening in Panama. So anyway, they were excited to do this.

(17:24):
I think that Chris was a little more outgoing than
Lessanne from what I was reading anyway, just that you know,
she was a little maybe more like introverted, and she
wasn't as outgoing and adventurous with like, hey, let's go
to a different country where we don't know the culture

(17:45):
and the real seeking right, see what we can get
into kind of thing. But but anyway, so either way, though,
I mean this is like one of like a trip
of a lifetime. I mean they're going to go to Panama.
So so Chris and Lisan, they, like I said, they
were roommates, they were co workers, so they just wanted

(18:09):
to like do this trip, to just do something like
big together. So they both had recently graduated, so Chris
graduated in art education and Lesan graduated in psychology. So
they decided that they were going to celebrate by going abroad,
and they decided that Panama was going to be their destination. So,

(18:32):
like I told you, the plan was kind of half vacation,
half volunteering. So they were going to explore the country,
they were going to improve their Spanish, and they were
going to spend a month volunteering with children at a
like a school there. So they arrived in Panama on
March fifteenth, twenty fourteen, and for the first two weeks

(18:56):
they are sight seeing around the country. By March twenty ninth,
they reached the mountain town of Boukheta let's say you,
I think that's how you say it, which is in
the Something province which I can't even the c.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
H I r i q u I cheriqua.

Speaker 1 (19:18):
Fine, I don't maybe, I don't think so. So this
was near the Costa Rican border. So in Bouqueta they
they moved in with a local host family and they
were preparing to like start their volunteer work at this
nearby school. So apparently this area is very gorgeous with

(19:39):
lush they call them like cloud forests, and I'm assuming
that's because they're like misty like mountains and stow. There's
also coffee farms and there is a very large volcano
there that's always lovely. Mm hmm. So for somebody who's

(20:00):
like a backpacker hyper a backpacker hiker, this is like
a paradise. So the two women were excited to explore this.
So they made some messages in social media posts to
friends and family back home, and they were just like sharing,
you know, how excited they were to do this and stuff.

(20:21):
So they mentioned that they had hiking plans, and I
guess they had brunch with two fellow Dutch travelers the
morning of April first, I think, two males. So everything
at this point seemed to be going great. And like
I said, you know, they were excited, but they were
also like they were trying to be responsible. Obviously, like

(20:42):
I said, they weren't just there on spring break break.
They were trying to do volunteer work and stuff like that.
So nobody would have imagined that April first would have
been the last day anyone would see them alive. So
April first, twenty fourteen, it's a Tuesday. Tuesday, two or

(21:02):
three chris En Lesan decide that they're going to hike
the l Pianista trail, which was a popular trail just
outside Bouquete. So the trail's name in English was the
pianist comes from the shape of the trail, and it's
like a very It's like you're climbing a very steep

(21:25):
piano keyboard. I don't know exactly what that means. But
and when you get to the top, there's like the
scenic overlook, and it's the scenic overlook is at something
called the Continental Divide. So it's not an extremely long hike,
but it does cut through these dense cloud forests, and
it can be tricky if you go beyond the main outlook,

(21:49):
like where you're like the destination at the end. So
the girls set out around eleven am and they're dressed
in just typically like light hiking gear, like shorts, tops.
It's a sunny day, so according to some accounts they
were and this is There were a few different takes
on this. Some say this happened, some say it didn't.

(22:11):
But from what I gathered, more people than not were
saying that there was I think it was a local restaurants,
like there was a kind of like village. Well, no,
I shouldn't say that the local restaurant had a dog
that would sometime accompany hikers. It was like a husky
that would just kind of go with them like wind

(22:33):
right and then you know whatever, just to get out.
I guess. So, like I said, some people are saying
this didn't happen. Other people are saying it did, but
that they took this dog with them, because like I said,
this dog would just kind of tag along with tourists sometimes.
So I do not know the name. I know, so

(22:56):
they didn't carry any like heavy gear, so because they
weren't taking these big backpacks and stuff like, it wasn't
like they were planning on being gone for days or right,
certainly not overnight either. So they leave and they're scene
walking up the trail and so sort of flashing forward
a little bit. Their camera eventually gets found, so there

(23:18):
were pictures of them, and it was like a normal
not a phone camera, but like a camera camera, and
there were pictures of them like starting out on the hike,
and they were smiling and enjoying like the views and whatever.
So like one camera photo that was retrieved, I guess
it shows Chris standing on a trail next to a

(23:38):
small stream around like one PM from when the camera said,
and she was looking happy and just kind of just
happy to be there in the jungle scenery. So everything
appears normal in these photos. The girls aren't showing any
signs of distress, and there are no other people visible
with them. So at some point after reaching the top viewpoint,

(24:00):
instead of turning back for some reason or another, they
seemed to have continued walking into like the wilderness on
the other side of this continental divide. And that's where
it's like, once you get past that point, it's very
like you should take a guide with you for that.
It's no longer like as touristy. It's more you have

(24:23):
to know your stuffy. Yes, you have to be careful.
You could fall, you could get lost, you could get
turned around, all of these things. So this is where
things took a obviously bad turn, and.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
There were pictures on the camera that did confirm they
made it to the top.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, there were a lot of pictures that were retrieved,
which I think, you know, we will get into that,
but some of these pictures are just like there's a
lot of weird things on these on this camera. So
anyway they go past, like I said, now they're in
this more remote, confusing terrain and I guess it's like
descending downwards towards the Caribbean side. Of these mountains. So

(25:05):
when evening comes on this day, the host family started
to get concerned. The dog does return without the girls,
which was kind of a red flag because I guess
normally the dog stays with the tourists, although again, if
they're if they were going a lot further than what
normal tourists would go, maybe the dog only knows to

(25:28):
go to a certain point and then decides to come back.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
Like I don't know, did the dog seem in like distressed,
not that it was hurt, but just.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
Like yeah said, did the dog say anything that would be.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
No and no?

Speaker 1 (25:41):
So like I've been saying, I mean, these girls are conscientious.
They weren't just there to party hearty, right, So they
did have a routine of daily like a daily routine
of checking in with their parents via text message and stuff.
So April first, there are no good night messages from them,
like because they talked to them in the morning.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
So now the host family, because the thing is, I mean, yes,
they were the host family, but they weren't in charge
of these girls in terms of like the girls were
staying with them, but they didn't have any control. They weren't. Yeah,
they weren't their parents. They you know, they didn't have
a curfew, I mean, and like they could have stayed
out with those two other boys all night for all
these people know, and there was nothing wrong with that.

Speaker 2 (26:24):
Very nice though that they at least like started making
it known, like we might have a problem here. Well
it's not delay things.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
Well, they were worried, but they didn't do anything that
first night, is what I'm saying, because they were still
thinking that there was like there was hopefully an explanation
because like I said, these girls technically didn't owe them
anything to tell them where they were going to be,
so they were just thinking, you know, maybe they met
up with friends or other people. Maybe they were just
running late, they stayed somewhere overnight, like you know whatever.

(26:52):
So now by the morning though of April second, it
was clear to the host family that there was something
wrong because they still hadn't returned, and they actually had
an appointment on April second with a local tour guide
who was supposed to take them on an excursion around Bouqueta,
and they completely missed it, never showed up. So then

(27:13):
now it's like, okay, so now there are things you
were like signing up to do that you're also not
showing up for. So the guide shows up, the women didn't.
The alarm was raised, so the host family contacted the
local authorities and the search was organized in this area,
all around the LP Andista trail where they had been

(27:34):
last seen. So these initial search efforts focused on the
Tierras Atlas Highlands. I guess it's like a part of
this landscape. Yeah, so locals, guides police, they scour the area,

(27:56):
and of course they start out on the easiest to
reach pass because they don't assume these girls are going
really off this path. So they even used helicopters to
scan from above, and search parties combed through the wooded
area and along the rivers where these women might have
gotten a little bit off track. So the hope was

(28:18):
that the girls might have just simply gotten lost or
injured and just were like waiting for help. So days
go by, though, now it's April sixth, and there was
still no sign of these missing girls. So by this
point their parents now have flown out to Panama from
the Netherlands, and the families arrived and they brought their

(28:39):
own I guess you could say like reinforcements for this,
Like they brought Dutch detectives, some police officers and specially
trained search dogs, which I mean good for them. I
guess I didn't know you could just outsource, Like I
didn't know that, like Dutch police would leave to go
to Panama to search for people.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
But whatever, No that either, but I guess it just
goes by country.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yeah, their prerogative. So they basically launch launched a full
scale international search and rescue operation. The Panamanian police and
firefighters worked alongside the Dutch team, and even some volunteer
searchers from neighboring Costa Rica joined in. So the small
community of Boqueta was on They were just like very

(29:26):
on edge because now there's like a lot of attention
there and stuff like that. Everyone wanted to find these
lost girls, and there was a reward of thirty thousand
dollars being offered by the family for any information leading
to Chris and lis Sand's discovery. Yeah, so for days,
these teams like hacked their way through the jungle. They

(29:47):
trudged up and down trails, they used canine units to
sniff out for clues, but no traces of the girls.
So it was basically like these young women had just
vanished into thin air, which was obviously ex extremely frustrating
and heartbreaking for everybody involved, especially obviously the parents. So
now we're at April fourteenth, and now this is two

(30:08):
weeks after this very intensive searching has been happening, and
the official rescue operations started to become like scaled back now,
so Panamanian authorities announced that they would continue to investigate,
but the active search like in the wilderness, that just
sort of started to lose steam and now they were

(30:29):
just more so like monitoring what was going on, not
necessarily actively searching anymore. So the Dutch search team and
the dogs they eventually returned home in early June after
exhausting like looking around all of these areas and there
were just no results. So through April and May, Chris
and Lessan's whereabouts just remained a question mark. So their

(30:55):
families kept the story in the media. They refused to
give up. There were light visuals that were held in bouquet.
Flyers were distributed far and wide. There were occasional tips
and rumored sightings. There was even like a strange one
about the two women that were seen with some young
men in a distant province in a distant province, which

(31:17):
turned out to be false. Though as time passed with
no news, people feared the worst. Some locals would kind
of gossip about maybe jungle accidents or even some type
of crime that took place. So while the families clung
to hope that maybe the girls were just still out
there and like they were lost, but it did not.

(31:37):
It just kept get looking worse. So now we're at
ten weeks later and there was a break in the case.
So ten weeks of this searching and just all of
this uncertainty, there was a sudden breakthrough. So on June fourteenth,
twenty fourteen, a local indigenous woman from a village call

(32:00):
called Alto Romero walked into the police station and she
was holding a blue backpack and she said it might
belong to one of the missing girls. She had claimed
that she found it lying on a riverbank along the
Rio Coulbra kool Abra, which was a river far north

(32:24):
of Boqueta in this Bocas del Toro province. So this location,
though where she found it was miles away from the
pianist to trail where the girls were hiking, so on
the other side of the continental divide was where this
backpack was found, could.

Speaker 2 (32:43):
Like were there any comments that it had been like
not necessarily wet when the woman brought it in or damp,
but like had it been like, you know, like salty crusty,
like it had been in the water and then had
been out of it drying and it dried crinkly and crunchy.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
Not that I saw, but I think the backpack is.
People have like thoughts on the backpack, like was it
placed there? Maybe? Okay, so the backpack, I mean, so
I don't know about like the salt or you know,
like stuff like that, but it was in good condition.
Oh and that's why people were wondering, like was this

(33:18):
kind of just placed there to like well to like
throw somebody off the trail or something like that. So
the so, like I said, this backpack was a blue
backpack and the contents that were in it did belong
to Lyssan and Chris. So inside, authorities found two pairs

(33:39):
of sunglasses, roughly eighty eight dollars worth of cash, Lsan's
passport and her insurance card, a water bottle too, bras
and both of their cell phones, and Lisand's digital camera.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
Oh that's how they found the camera.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
So everything was dry inside the backpack, and it was,
like I said, it was neatly packed up, like a
little too nice.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
Well, I was just gonna say, not so much any
of the other items, even the cell phone, Like sometimes
I'll have my cell phone out for hikes to take pictures,
you will. Other than that, I do pack it away though,
because I don't want to carry it like you just
I want my hands to be free, you know, like
I just don't want things in my hands.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
But but I mean, hey, right, but.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
The camera I find especially strange that that wasn't found
on the trail, that they would have been holding it.
Whatever this is that went down, It wasn't just dropped
from somebody's hand and like potentially damage that it was.
The camera was in the backpack, Like that's just odd
to me.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yeah, well to seasoned searchers, it was strange that the
backpack could sit next to this river through all of
these heavy rainstorms and not be like nothing inside was wet.
So in fact, the locals insisted that this area had
been searched before and that the bag was not there.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
So something is definitely fishy about that, right, So.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
Of course people are saying, like this bag had to
be placed there deliberately, probably not long before it was discovered.
So the bag itself, it just had like a little
bit of damage on it, but not water log damage,
but more like it had been like maybe dragged, like
it was scuffed up a little on the bottom. But
I mean, who knows how that happened. So, but all

(35:29):
three of the electronics still worked. Wow, which is very
odd to me. Also because if somebody abducted these people,
these girls, why the hell would they put the cell
phones and the camera. You're in a jungle, you can
easily get rid of that.

Speaker 2 (35:42):
But or even like, if you're gonna allow those to
be found, that you would have attempted to damage them
right right, they were covered on them. Could they tell
what the cell phones like when they last used them?
Had they sent them?

Speaker 1 (35:54):
I think there was some of that stuff. So yes,
So with the recovered phones and the camera, investigators finally
had a window into the girl's final days, and the
data was pretty chilling. Grim Yes, So first they checked
the cell phone logs, like you said, and despite the

(36:15):
remote area having little to no reception, they discovered that
seventy seven attempts were made from the girl's phone to
call emergency numbers in the days after April.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
First, seventy seven. Yes, oh that breaks my heart.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
So which then, when you think about it that way,
they probably maybe they were later, but they wouldn't have
been abducted right away because who would have been letting
them call seventy seven times?

Speaker 2 (36:41):
Right, I'm thinking more like injury loss?

Speaker 1 (36:44):
Right, panic?

Speaker 2 (36:45):
So come rescue us.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
So the call logs showed that their first distress call
was dialed just hours into their hike on April first,
at four thirty nine pm. Oh wow, So Chris's phone
tried to reach one one two, which is the international
emergency number used in Panama, and at four fifty one
it was dialed again, and over the next days they

(37:11):
made repeated attempts to dial one one two, and then
they also tried nine to one to one, which was
also another emergency line in Panama.

Speaker 2 (37:21):
So but none of these calls connected, like they didn't act, Okay.

Speaker 1 (37:24):
So they were dialed again and again as the pair
seemingly desperately tried to get a signal out in that
rainforest but could not, just playing Devil's.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
Out all right, I'm thinking what if they were abducted
and that was part of the plan by the abductors
to like, let's put one, one, two in these phones
like an insane amount of times to make it look
like they were trying to get help. We know there's
no service up here, they're not going to get in
touch with anybody.

Speaker 1 (37:53):
Like, well, it's a pretty big gamble that that wouldn't
go through just once.

Speaker 2 (37:56):
But I thought you said that it was known for
not having service up there.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
Well, I'm just saying, you know, I mean, that's.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
A you still don't want to toy with those rights.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
Yeah, what if there's a rogue satellite out there that's
just all of a sudden like oh hey hello, Right,
I mean, I'm just saying, I don't know. I think
that would be a that would be a big risk
to do because all it takes is one whacked out
phone call to go through and then all of a
sudden people you've been pinged surprise. Right. So, but like

(38:26):
we said, unfortunately none of these calls connected. So there
was one, I think, small, small exception on April third,
there seemed to be one nine to one one call
that got through, but it only got through for two seconds.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
So I've heard the operator answer.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
It's like not even like you couldn't even ping that
it didn't there was nothing of substance to get.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
Through, and like a log from the operator of like
this is what was said, Like there was nothing said,
it was it was two seconds.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
So the phone logs just show though that they were
like pretty desperate at this point. So then Lasan's phone
runs out of battery by April sixth and was never
used again. So now Chris's iPhone, which had a longer
battery life, it continued to be switched on and off
occasionally through April eleventh.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
Wow, that's several days after what ten days?

Speaker 1 (39:32):
Well, I guess they were trying to conserve Oh yes,
right by.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
Not having it all, they were alive, I mean they.

Speaker 1 (39:39):
Oh yeah, you know they're still right. So what was
weird though, was after April fifth, the phone was never
unlocked again. Now, multiple attempts, though, were made with the
wrong pin code to get into the.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
Phone, which I would think, Well, that doesn't make sense.
I was just going to say his roommates. You would
think that they would have each other's pins to get
into their phones, but you and I don't have each
other's I was just going to say, you've never known
each others.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
If we so, if we would have went on this
hike and you got hurt and you couldn't use your phone,
exactly where I was going with this. I would continue
to try, but like it would lock you the hell
shaw me.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
Right, because that's what I was going to say at first,
all must be the abductor, but it's like, no.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
That literally could could Yeah it could have been the other, yeah, right,
one of the Yeah. So the last time that the
iPhone was powered on was April eleventh, which was over
a week before this horrific ideal began. It was turned
off for the final time just before noon on April eleventh,
and there was still twenty percent battery left.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
I was just going to ask you, now we know
that we know that the battery did not die, did
die or truly that it was shut off? Did Elliot shell?

Speaker 1 (41:00):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (41:03):
Oh that's so unsettling.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
So after this day, no further calls were attempted.

Speaker 2 (41:09):
How many days does it take to starve to death?
But I guess you don't starve to death because if
you can still drink, which unless they were finding wild water,
which they could have also been contracting, God knows, what
if they didn't have I mean, they were not prepared,
like you said, to do more than a few hours,
so they wouldn't have had this. Even if they had
stuff to treat the water with them, like charcoal sticks
or something. They're not packing a week's worth.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
I agree with all of them, right, I don't know
how easy or uneasy it is to find water in
a lush jungle like that.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
Very good point too. I'm thinking, of course there's like
streams and things, but not.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
Well that's why I picture too, but who the hell knows?
Right then, I also picture from the Hunger Games where
they're putting that thing into the tree.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
Absolutely, that is such a good freaking movie. So and
all these rain storms, I don't know, I don't know,
I don't know. Did you see anything? Did they say
anything about, like on this hiking trail, like with how
popular it was? Well, that's another thing I was going
to ask you, like no one else with how popular
this trill supposedly was was passing them or were called

(42:13):
seeing them?

Speaker 1 (42:14):
Yeah? Tons of people. No, that's why they're missing, right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
But then I was thinking of that one case you
did where like that woman she had she was like.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
I said Sandra. Hell, yeah, okay, but they were saying
that these girls went past the point of where tourists
were supposed Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
True, true. And then what else was I going to
say to you about people seeing oh the rains. No,
I don't know, it'll come to me.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
No, I hope not.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
It's not nice.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
So now we're going to get to the camera.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
I don't want to.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
So there were some very disturbing things on this camera.
So the phone record obviously is showing that there was
I mean, there was some bad things going on. Whatever
it was. They were trying to get help. So the
camera though, provided a little bit more of like a
visual diary as to what they were doing.

Speaker 2 (43:06):
And maybe if, like they looks wise, were starting to change,
if they were starving to death.

Speaker 1 (43:10):
Or something, tell you, like becoming werewolves or something. So
Lessan's digital camera this was a cannon power shot, so
it contained over one hundred photos, including snapshots of the
hike and the weird sequence taken in the middle of
There was a weird sequence of pictures taken in the

(43:31):
middle of the night.

Speaker 2 (43:32):
Oh wait, which day, Well, I guess the first day.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
Well, so the early photos from April first, like I said,
they showed Chris and lassan bright daylight walking on this trail.
They were happy, heavy, just enjoying the you know, the
the jungle.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
I'm sorry. There was one camera or two one.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
One yeah, yeah, So nothing seemed to be strange about
these pictures. They didn't have any signs of fear or
anything like that. So the last daylight photo was time
stamped around one pm on April first. Now, this is
then after which presumably the girls continued beyond the trail's end,
which is where, like I said, like now that they

(44:17):
shouldn't have gone further. This is when things started taking
a turn for the worse. So then there were night photos.
So there were roughly ten daylight normal photos and ninety
nighttime photos. So there were ninety photos that were snapped
on the camera in near total darkness between one am

(44:39):
and four am on April eighth, so a week later.
So this is like what the scene. The scene is
is pitch black jungle, the middle of the night, and
the only light is coming from a camera flash, not
even a flash light, just a camera. So the so.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
The camera's flash or like one of their cell phone, no,
the camera's flash.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm just saying it wasn't a steady
stream of light, it was only.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
Just a boom and that's okay, okay, gotta got it.

Speaker 1 (45:15):
So most of these images showed just like vague shapes
or just literal darkness, close up of rocks and trees
taken from odd angles, as if like what the theory
is is that they were just trying to illuminate for
a second, like if they were trying to walk, see

(45:36):
where they could step next or whatever.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
Odd though, like that wasn't their first evening out there
in the wilderness, but for some reason on the eighth
or using it for light.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
Well, I was thinking maybe whether it was an animal
or a person, something was coming after them and they
needed to move fast, or you know, like maybe the
first six nights they didn't have to traverse anything. They
just kind of like you know, settled down into wherever
they were like overnight. I don't know, So, yeah, I
mean we were just thinking, like were they trying to

(46:06):
illuminate the surroundings. A few of the photos, though, were
especially weird because they seemed to have been intentional, Like
in one picture, the women had arranged sticks with plastic
bags or candy wrappers, on top of a boulder, like
as if it was maybe a marker or like an

(46:27):
SOS sign for somebody.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
With the helicopter with the shininess.

Speaker 1 (46:31):
Right. So in another they had laid out what looked
like bits of toilet paper or tissue to spell something
out or like make an arrow, and there was a
small mirror propped up in this to catch light, which
was clever at.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
All of this I think very good ideas, right, but
clearly shows like I feel like they were desperate for
help and to be found.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
So obviously these pictures of them doing these certain things,
we're showing that these like women were trying everything to
be spotted or at the very least to mark where
they were, which of course is extremely sad because it's
like they've been out there now for over a week
and they're still not giving up. Oh yeah, and you
know all this stuff. So there is though one photo
in particular that is like just really really really weird,

(47:20):
which you can look it up, which maybe we'll pause
after I tell you what it is, and you can
look it up. But so there is one night photo
in particular that appears to just show it's like in
the camera focus or like it takes up the whole
picture is just hair, like just somebody's head. The flash

(47:44):
is bright on and it's like right up on their
head and the hair is all messy and it looks
like it's from the back, but some people also argue
it's from the front and the hair has been pushed
all the way down because they people have like tried
to really study the picture, and there seems to be

(48:05):
like spots of like maybe there's like blood or something,
and somebody thinks they see a little bit of a
nose or whatever, like it's very hard to make out.
But so it's just like this very messy wall of
hair that is in this that this camera took. So,
like I said, it looked like there was some like

(48:25):
blood matting this strawberry blonde hair.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
I assume one of the girls have hair this color.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
Yes, Okay, I think it was Chris's that they're assuming
was hers. So people were then speculating that, like, did
Chris have suffered some kind of serious injury, like maybe
she fell, and that would explain why Lessanne or who
or again whoever was taking these pictures, they were they

(48:54):
took a picture to sort of document her injury or
to try to remember like how the injury might have looked,
like was it making progress healing, or like if they
were going to be rescued, maybe that would come in helpful,
Like I don't know, because but the thing is that
this is all disputed because later analysis, like I said,
the people were looking at this picture and nobody can

(49:15):
actually say for sure that it's blood at all. It's
just it's a very weird picture that's very confusing and
not at all straightforward. So one of the things we
do know is that if one of them was hurt,
it was most likely Chris, because since it was most
likely Chris because her phone was the one that was
being accessed with the incorrect pin number, so obviously that

(49:40):
would not make sense any other way. So some people
were theorizing that Lessan took those photos at night to
mark where she might have left Chris's body in case
she had to continue to go on alone, like not
saying Chris was dead, but maybe just could didn't walk,

(50:00):
or she was trying to use that as a flashlight source,
like I said, in the rainy darkness to see what
was around her. So as if the photos we do
have aren't weird enough, there is another thing that's not
as creepy but to me anyway, but it's still very
very strange on the camera. So you know, like I said,
there were like roughly one hundred photos one and only

(50:24):
one photo was deleted from the camera. The entire all
of these pictures of just rocks and darkness. One photo
all by itself was deleted.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
And they could just tell that one photo was deleted
or did the camera have like a deleted section like
our phones.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
Do, and like you can then go and see it
was deleted from the deleted section. Yeah, So so on
the camera it was it was photo number five oh
nine in the sequence was just missing the number. The
file number was just skipped. No one knows what happened
to image five nine. It's nowhere to be found on

(51:02):
the camera, Like I said, in the deleted area, nothing
is there, So it's absence. So this this five h
nine photo, it's absence has led to a lot of
speculation about whether something was on that picture that maybe
it wasn't Chris or Lessan, but somebody else was in
the picture or I don't know, a certain location that

(51:22):
they didn't want to be disclosed, and so they were
crafty enough to, like I said, not only delete the picture,
but then delete the deleted picture exactly, because you know,
not a lot of people even know, Like I shouldn't
say that, but depending on generational there are people who
have no clue that when you delete a picture, you

(51:42):
didn't really delete delete the picture. You only deleted the picture.
You know, you didn't wipe the picture right, So you know, investigators,
though they never publicly explained the gap like, it just
remains a very eerie mystery basically within another mystery of
why this was deleted. So finding the backpack with all

(52:04):
of this, all these clues now reignited these search efforts,
which sounds reasonable to me. So in late June twenty fourteen,
within a few kilometers of where the backpack was found,
searchers began like looking there again. And on June nineteenth,
a local I don't know if it was a man
or woman, came across a boot with a foot in it.

(52:27):
Stop it and it was wedged inside of a like
a rock crevice, like it got stuck along the riverbank.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
Could you tell, like I don't even know what to ask, like,
was it keep that in mind? Was it decomposition or
like you could tell it had been like cut, but
I don't have a knife with them that they oh.

Speaker 1 (52:51):
God, god, anything else? No, Okay, So this was a
very shocking discovery to you as well. Yeah, and it
led authorities to comb the area much more in detail
than if they were just searching around. And not far
from this boot, they found a pelvic bone that was
later confirmed to belong to Chris.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
Are you kidding me?

Speaker 1 (53:16):
No?

Speaker 2 (53:16):
Don't you find that to be very fast decomposition?

Speaker 1 (53:20):
What is that?

Speaker 2 (53:21):
Two months?

Speaker 1 (53:22):
Right? Well? Who knows if things have been picking at it.
I mean, it's it's a.

Speaker 2 (53:27):
Very it's the freaking junk, right, Like there's a lot
of shit.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
Out there, and I don't know why it comes it
comes to mind, but like I think about not even
like literal scavengers, like like you know, right, I'm talking
like fire ants like things, well think like little bugs
that can just kind of I don't know why you're
taking like Indiana Jones, but you know, like just pick
things off and clean. Right. So, over the next few

(53:53):
days they found close to thirty three scattered bone fragments down.
They were spread out, though over a relatively wide area
along the river, and they did DNA testing, and it
confirmed that the remains were those of Chris Andsan.

Speaker 2 (54:13):
Both of them. Yes, wow, I was not expecting you
to say that, but I suppose where the heck would
the other girl be? Depending on who? I don't even know.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
I'm so I'm on the edge of my seat, I know,
and I have been you have, so obviously this is
very tragic and sad. Yes, and forensic analysis of the
bones brought up some other like strange details. So San's
the foot was Lysan's foot that was found in the boot.

(54:46):
It still had some bits of skin and tissue on it,
which was indicative of a relatively natural decomposition process, as in.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
Like she got stuck in there and probably died there.

Speaker 1 (54:59):
Well, I think, meaning like whatever however that boot or
foot got there, like it was just left out to
the elements, and that's what you would expect it to
look like, some skin, some muscle, tissue, some bone just
decomposing as a bone would. Then that was Lussan. But

(55:23):
in contrast, though to this, a lot of Chris's bones,
including that piece of her pelvis, that were found, they
were completely bare and they were like totally stark white.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
What does that mean?

Speaker 1 (55:38):
Though sort of like they had been like bleached or
like I'm not saying bleached like with chlorox. I'm saying
like bleached like from thee right, like by the sun
purposefully kind of you know, like just it was much
different than this normal than in contrast to like, okay,

(55:59):
you see this kind of like messy, decomposing piece of body, right, yeah, right,
So this was really strange because in a very humid
climate like the Cloud forest, one would not expect bones
to become so clean and like dry and white in
just a few months. So some wondered if there was

(56:22):
a certain type of like chemical used like lime to
kind of clean off these bones, But of course it
could have been sun as well, so experts cautioned that
sun and environmental conditions could naturally whiten that white and bones.
But it was really really odd because, like I said,

(56:45):
there was such a difference between bones from the sane
and bones from Chris. So according to one report, tests
showed that there were high levels of phosphorus on Chris's bones, again,
the cleaned bones, which did match the local soil composition.
So that was kind of suggesting that there was some

(57:07):
type of outside chemical influence on those bones.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
Fascinating.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
So a Panamanian forensic anthropologist examined the bones using a
microscope and found that there were no scratches or cut
marks at all. So there were no signs that these
bones had been cut by a weapon or gnawed on
by animals. So, in other words, the remains did not

(57:36):
show evidence of deliberate dismemberment or obvious animals scavenging. Just
makes it weirder, exactly.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
They were completely undisturbed.

Speaker 1 (57:46):
Right, so people are just very confused as to how
these these women died, right like. By June twenty third,
authorities officially announced that the remains of both Lessane and Chris,
you know, like, well, sorry, that the remains were matched
to the sand and Chris. So this brings an end

(58:07):
to like the search for their bodies or I guess
most of their bodies.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
And I'm sorry, that's all right. They found these bones
close to the backpack, which was several miles away, yes, yes,
because I'm thinking, like, it's just odd that no one,
It's odd to me how far they went, Like they
really must have been turned around, that they didn't just
turn around and go back. How they came from that?

(58:32):
No one found them. The fact that the search party
started looking for them fairly soon when they set out
on this, but the fact that they, you know, were
believed to go past that continental divide. I don't know,
it's just and no one was searching over there until
the backpack, Like even though tourists typically didn't go that far,

(58:56):
no one set out that far to still search that area.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
No, it had said that they did start they lightly
searched that area already because they said it was weird.
That's why they found it to be weird.

Speaker 2 (59:07):
Yes, it's just so odd to me, like like I'm
imagining if they were hurt, or even at least if
one of them was hurt, that no one came across them,
that no one found them. Oh, and how long this took,
Like these poor families, And I just feel like in

(59:28):
my gut that these girls like really suffered. I don't
suspect foul play, though, do you. I feel like they
just came upon a really bad time while they were lost.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
I don't know. I get weird feelings from both ways,
but yeah, I mean the picture being deleted twice is
weird to me. Again, obviously, the contrast in the bones
is a little is a little bizarre, and just the
fact that if it was, if there was no foul
play involved, why did that backpack just end up there? Yeah,

(01:00:04):
like after it was after it was searched, then then
it's back and then the backpack is just sitting there
and like everything's working in it. Yes, you know, because
I just feel like if I was lost in the wilderness,
how how much would I like, once you're officially lost loss,
Like are you gonna when the phones are dead? Like

(01:00:27):
you're still gonna. I feel like I would have had
that phone out all the time until they died. I
don't know, I don't know. Yeah. So obviously, over the years,
a bunch of theories have been floated around for what
happened to these girls. So on one side, there's many
investigators and both official and independent, they lean towards, like

(01:00:51):
you just said, an accidental scenario, and then there are
other people who lean a little bit more into the
foul play arena. So you know, starting out with the
the the lost accidental kind of theory, which is like
the official line the Panamanian government is giving. Of course,

(01:01:13):
well that's what you're saying.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
I knew you were going to say that you did.
I just feel as though I'm not the freaking police
department though either that's for damn sure. I would hope
that they would dig a little deeper and not. I
just feel like, how many of these stories we do,
and it just seems like these police departments are fine

(01:01:34):
with saying things are accidents, and like they don't want
to brick, sweat and dig any deeper than they are.

Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
I picture you like in front of a whiteboard, you know,
with I guess FBI agents or wherever you go. All right, suck,
here's what we got, all right, So obviously this is
the simplest explanation. It was just all accident. They wandered

(01:02:01):
off the main trail, they reached the summit, and then
they got lost in this treacherous jungle, and you know,
things just never improved. The Continental Divide area, like we
talked about, it's very confusing. One wrong turn and you're
going like into a very very deep, thick jungles. It's

(01:02:23):
very remote they might have both of them, or one
of them might have fallen off a cliff, or maybe
even like one of those cable bridges they were talking about,
which no freaking thanks, And you know, got hurt, and
you know, which could be a possibility. Oh, by the way, chillers,
I did show Talia during a break the picture of

(01:02:43):
the hair.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
I walked into the room and he had it like
ready to show me, and I couldn't even He's like,
this is the picture, and I couldn't even tell what
I was looking at. I thought, well, I actually said
this to you. I thought it was rutilated. Course, yeah, ruehile.
I mean I sort of was getting wig vibes. Obviously
it's not, since it did match one of the girl's hair.

(01:03:05):
It was definitely disturbing. I mean, for sure, it's just
I don't even it's everything you already said and what
you described. But and I did feel like I could
see skin. I don't know if it was her back.
I didn't. I mean, I don't look that closely. But
to me, I didn't think I was looking at like
a face under there. I was thinking more like an

(01:03:26):
upper back rck. And it was pinkish. I wouldn't say
that I thought I saw blood or red, but definitely
like pinkish skin, which I suppose that's a good sign
in terms of like blood flowing that if this was
Chris like that she was still a lot. Well, I mean,
I guess what does it matter though, Well, I guess
it would matter in terms of when that was taken,

(01:03:47):
and that was one of the ones on the eleventh ninth,
right that were all all of these disturbing ones.

Speaker 1 (01:03:55):
Were like days later, just right photos.

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
Yeah, yeah, sorry, I do think though in terms of
the intention may have been to monitor, like a wound
like you had brought up. I think that would definitely
make sense.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Yeah, like the fact that it was except there was
no monitoring because it was only one picture, right.

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
But like if that they were setting out to begin monitoring,
which again is odd that it was that many days later.
But if it had just happened, but you really couldn't
see a wound in it. But if it was a
head injury and then it was the hair, I don't know,
so many questions.

Speaker 1 (01:04:30):
But don't you think you would have moved the hair absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
And it didn't. You couldn't even see a hand in
this photo trying to pull up right.

Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
I don't know, I don't know it was guess it
could have just been an accidental picture, like she was
holding the camera and it just went off in front
of this but I don't know, I don't know, it's
you know, but I feel like that describing the picture
doesn't do a justice to seeing the picture.

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
You know, bothersome Yeah, and you can't tell why it's
bothered exactly because you can't really put your finger on
what right creepy about it, but it is creepy for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
So, like I said, that's the first theory. It's like
they just basically succambe to the elements and between dehydration, starvation,
potential injury. Like and like I said, those nighttime photos
might have just been their way of trying to navigate
a specific reason that one night. I don't know. So

(01:05:29):
Dutch authorities also initially favorited this accident theory. There was
a team in twenty fifteen that concluded that that was
the most probable cause, that the women had suffered an
unfortunate slip or something, and you know, it was just
that's just what happened. So that's theory one. Then we
have the foul play theory. So despite what I just said,

(01:05:52):
there are also several suspicious details that make some people
believe that a third party was involved. Now, it might
have been like an opportunistic crime or something a little
more sinister. But they point to the to the fact
of this discovery of their remains after searches in that area,

(01:06:13):
which is obviously strange. That's a red flag. How could
search teams and dogs in april, because remember and dogs
miss both of these people, only for the backpack and
then bones of both girls to show up in the
area in thirty different places. Because you think, then, what's

(01:06:35):
the chances you wouldn't come across one out of thirty
the first time?

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
Well, and then I'm thinking it's like if they had
been abducted and they were being held somewhere, I guess,
But then if what if they had tried to like escape,
and then what if you know, then they got hurt
or what if they were hurt while they were being held,
and then that's why they then passed away because they
were already injured. And then maybe the thirty different locations,

(01:07:00):
like is it because maybe an animal dragged their body
or like after they were deceased dragged that who knows.
But then it's like or did the abductor intentionally spread
I don't even want to think about it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
Well, you're on the wrong podcast. Then, so then of course,
the other thing is people point to the fact that
the backpack was in such good condition, and local people
were insisting that that backpack had not been there earlier.
So then we have the odd state of those bones,
especially the fact that Chris's bones could have been chemically

(01:07:42):
treated for whatever reason. So but it was like with
somebody trying to destroy DNA evidence of maybe not Chris,
but of the person who did it right right, And
then of course we have the famous or infamous I
guess I should say Missing five nine photo, and some

(01:08:02):
people are thinking that that means that that photo captured
the perpetrator or some type of crucial moment that was
deleted on purpose. So while there's no direct evidence of
foul play, because like I said, there was no signs
of struggle on the bones, and obviously there were no
eyewitnesses that ever came forward, but those who doubt the

(01:08:24):
accident theory find the coincidences just too many of them
to just completely dismiss. And they wonder if the young
women could have stumbled into a situation with some you know,
bad individuals just somewhere out there on the trail, because again,
they didn't go with a guide or anything and I guess.

(01:08:45):
The other thing to me is if the foul play
theory is, I don't know. I guess I do fall
more onto that side, do you, yes, where I think
it was foul play. I just I don't know why.
It's just in my gut I feel like it is. Yeah,
But I also feel like that would explain semi why

(01:09:05):
if they came across one, two, or three bad people.
That would also explain why the dog came back alone,
because they might have chased the dog away, you know,
like they if somebody wants to abduct these girls, they're
not going to take a dog with them. A dog's
not gonna tell anybody what happened, so right, So it's

(01:09:27):
like I feel like that's a little different. If the
dog accompanies these girls, what does make the dog then say,
I'm piecing out.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
If it's not a lie for so many days, That's.

Speaker 1 (01:09:38):
What I mean. Like, yes, like the dogs with them,
and like I said, I mean I said before, maybe
the dog just knew. Hey, Like when we get to
this one point, like tourists don't go past it, I'm
not interested in going past it. I want to go
get nakis, right, But potentially that would you know, if
somebody was abducting them or something. I mean, they could

(01:10:01):
have had a gun, they could have shot. Not that
she's not shot the dog, but shot the gun in
the air to like I'm just saying, I feel like,
I don't. I just feel like it's not in the
dog's nature to kind of just you're accompanying them and
then you're not. I don't know absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
Also speaking of just the foul play angle and the camera.
Now the picture that had been deleted, I know you
said what number, it was five o nine, but where
was the sequence? Was five o nine from their ten
photos in daylight?

Speaker 1 (01:10:31):
Or was that from Oh no, it was night.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
It was the night.

Speaker 1 (01:10:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
So then of course there are more outlandish ones, like
gossip of a serial killer that was out in that
region at the time. There were rumors swirling that there
were pigmy cannibals out there or cartel hit man or
hit man cartel hitman who were looking to harvest organs,

(01:11:01):
which though although that's a little nuts, at the same time,
it's like they would have means to clean up bones
and shit, you know, right, But this.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
Is also a popular trail, like wouldn't this be happening
more cannibalism and the cartel going after that.

Speaker 1 (01:11:17):
I'm just saying I don't know. I am as well,
but obviously there is no evidence of that. So, like
I said, I think people have basically though settled on
the fact that this was just an accident.

Speaker 2 (01:11:34):
Well, and that's the thing that makes these like hiking
situations tricky, especially when it's someone who's not familiar with
the area. Not to say that things can't go awry
if you are from the area, or even if you're
familiar with the trail. Things happen on the trail all
the time that are unexpected and can knock you on
your ass literally and figuratively. That's what like, I feel
like it is so tricky with these hiking ones because

(01:11:56):
stuff can just go wrong. But there's also so weirdos
out there.

Speaker 1 (01:12:03):
And yeah, I agree. I was thinking when you were
saying that, I was remembering when when we were in
Tennessee and we went on that hike. Now keep in mind, everyone,
Talia is the hiker, and we went to the mountains.
I'm putting these in air quotes. Now, one assumes, Hey,

(01:12:27):
if you know you're in the mountains of Tennessee, you
would hike. She discloses once we were on the trip
that all she has is flip flops, and you know,
so all right, we went to the Smoky Mountain National Park,
she has her flip flops, and I remember we were

(01:12:48):
on the Rainbow Falls trail and we thought, I guess
we assumed it wasn't going to be a long journey.
That was a wrong assumption, spoilers, we ever made it
to the Rainbow Falls, but you know, we did give
it an effort, honest effort, absolutely, And I mean we met.

Speaker 2 (01:13:08):
Some nice people along the way.

Speaker 1 (01:13:10):
We'll get to that, yeah, so yes, And I mean
was I semi disgusted, of course, because I was in
normal boots and she's like, she's at mamma's but whatever.
So but yes, we did meet some nice people. And
I clearly remember we met this couple and they were

(01:13:33):
nice enough. They were talking to us. It was I
think it was a husband and wife, I thought, But yes,
they were talking to us in the beginning. And then
I remember like there were a couple of people passing us,
and we were kind of now getting curious as to
where is this shaw me? How much further we got
to go? And these people were like, oh, yeah, it's
you know, like it's another probably thirty minutes that way

(01:13:55):
or something. I thought thirty minutes, like, well, we can't
do this, just can't. So we stopped, and for some
reason that couple wasn't stopping with us, but they were
very close proximity to us, and the wife ends up
saying like, oh, how did you get here? And tell

(01:14:21):
you it goes oh, yeah, no, we just parked down
there and we just walked up. And then the wife
turns and you can see she's holding her cell phone
talking to somebody and just gives tell you the most
innocent like no it's I'm not talking to you, but
a very endearing smile.

Speaker 2 (01:14:43):
They were sweet.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
They were very sweet. So but Talia really wanted to
tell them that we just walked up, and I'm thinking, yeah,
they know they were with us. So sadly we never
got to any Rainbow Falls n trail.

Speaker 2 (01:14:59):
I don't I remember that about the shoes. I was
gonna say to you, did we go buy some?

Speaker 1 (01:15:03):
No, you certainly didn't, But that was it. The other
part of the trip that I clearly remember was being
on that mountain roller coaster, Oh my god, and how
the man setting us up was.

Speaker 2 (01:15:20):
Uh about wild animals, wasn't it.

Speaker 1 (01:15:23):
No, he was saying, like, you know, you have to
be careful of the break, like oh yeah, make sure
to check check the brak, not check the break, but
like use the brake, dabble and you know, like don't
go down this too fast. Taligo was in front of
me as we went up that you know, we went

(01:15:45):
up like obviously I was behind her a little bit,
but like the same way an amusement park would be.
It was like I could clearly see her and we
you know, we got to the top. She obviously went first.
You never touched that break, did not?

Speaker 2 (01:16:00):
That was it?

Speaker 1 (01:16:02):
You flew down there like a bat out of hell? Yeah,
I used mine so anyway, so that yeah, I mean
at the end of the day with this, we still
don't have all the answers. I don't think we ever will.

Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
I was thinking, poor families.

Speaker 1 (01:16:28):
Yeah, I mean Chris and Lessan's story. It's heartbreaking, and
it's just I think it's like a good well not good,
but it's a reminder of how quickly things can change
from like you know, you're going out for a hike
to you're stuck out there, you know, just I don't know.
I just think it's it's just crazy, how quickly of

(01:16:52):
a difference whatever somebody you know, trips, hits their head, uh,
breaks their ankle, whatever, and then the entire trip, especially
if you are kind of like I don't want to
I'm not saying these girls were cocky, but if you're
getting a little too adventurous and you kind of aren't
necessarily where you should be anymore. Now. I don't know

(01:17:13):
if that happened with these two, but like purposely or
not go farther kind of thing, right, So, now you
know what, we're eleven years after they disappeared, and it's
just it's a case that lives on in infamy. People
still talk about it obviously.

Speaker 2 (01:17:32):
Well, we said that you had heard about this way
before we did the podcast. How did you hear about it.

Speaker 1 (01:17:37):
I'm sure I heard about it on a podcast or
a YouTube video or something, but just you know, it
was a I mean, it's such it was. It's a
creepy case.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
It is because there is so much unknown that, like
you said, we will never know what truly happened, and
your mind can just go down so many different paths
with the possibilities.

Speaker 1 (01:17:57):
Yeah, so I think that that is I think that
that's it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:03):
Well, good job, thank you a good one, very of course,
sad and just devastating for these girls, devastating for their families.
Made the girls rest in peace.

Speaker 1 (01:18:14):
Yes, I mean I think I gave.

Speaker 2 (01:18:16):
Several closing well not closing thoughts, but final thoughts.

Speaker 1 (01:18:21):
I don't even want to know what you think the
difference is between those two.

Speaker 2 (01:18:25):
Timing mostly you know ten minutes ago, where my final
thoughts now would be closing, because we are closing. We're
about to be done.

Speaker 1 (01:18:33):
So no, I don't have any that's semi made more
sense than I thought it would. So oh yeah, all right,
Well until next time, everybody, stay safe and stay chill.

Speaker 2 (01:18:45):
Buye everybody, good bye.

Speaker 1 (01:18:47):
Everyone you've just listened to Chilworthy. Thank you for joining
us on this latest While we strive to keep our
discussions engaging and lighthearted, we also wanted to take a
moment to acknowledge the real lives and events that are

(01:19:08):
at the heart of these stories.

Speaker 2 (01:19:10):
We try to approach each topic with a sense of
curiosity and respect fully aware of the impact these events
have had on the individuals and the reloved ones. Our
goal is to honor their memories by keeping their stories
alive and shedding light on the mysteries that surround them.

Speaker 1 (01:19:26):
If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe, rate,
and leave a review, and don't forget to join us
on the next episode of Chilworthy.