Avatar (2009) vs Avatar_ The Way of Water (2022) vs...

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The following is brought to you bythe p l D Projects Network. It's
me, it's me, It's pl D. It's me, it's me.

(00:54):
It's p l D. And I'mRichard Jarvi and rolling the tongue today.
Huh. And I'm Maddi Gunner andthis is class action. That was
a nice little transition we have.Now do you like that? Did you
like that? It was different?My son made the new opening thing there
that will intro bit there, andI had some transitions to it. So

(01:17):
yeah, it was cool. Definitely, child up. Absolutely, Always something
new here, always something new.What's going on, guys, Welcome to
the classiest show on the interwebs.Uh, this is Jarvis Show. Let's
be honest. This is all aboutRichard Drek Jarvey today. This is so
we didn't have to buy Jobby atChristmas present. Correct, this is Christmas
present? Thank you guys, anytime, Jerey. How excited are you,

(01:41):
my friend? I'm so excited.I've seen Out of the Way of Water
twice now I'm going in for athird time this weekend. And man,
I am humped. I can't believewe have two James Camera movies going heeadside,
so It's gonna be super special.Also, Peel the happy fucking birthday,
bro. It was eighth of December. It is your birthday. Thank

(02:02):
you, Thank you, really appreciatethat. I spent a lot of time
drinking and eating and eating and drinking, and somehow I sneaked in a h
A snuck in a a viewing ofway of Water, And I will say,
uh, very interesting. But moreinteresting to me is I'm gonna break
the biddle bit. How are youfeeling that you've heard PJ say he actually

(02:23):
likes the movie? Dude, that'sthat's insane. I don't what happened to
PJ. Has he been has heentered his avatar body? Has he been
getting the Chorage treatment? What isgoing on? Who is he? And
honestly, I don't want to knowwhat happened to the old PJ. Keep
the new one. He's awesome.I woke up and I saw the message

(02:44):
from PJ saying that he liked themovie, and I was like, what
the fuck? What happened is goingWhat is going on? Is going on?
What kind of world did I like? Wake up in? Well,
let's be honest, it is agood movie. I will either it is
a good movie. I wasn't thrilled. I was kind of in between PJ
and Jarvy. I kind of likewas one of those. I was not

(03:04):
very excited about the second one.I thought the first one was pretty forgettable.
But I did rewatch it, enjoyedit more than I remembered, and
I watched the second one and waspleasantly surprised that I did did highly enjoy
it. I don't think it's aperfect movie, but it is a great
blockbuster of the type that we don'tusually get outside of our Marvel or our
Star Wars. It's kind of niceto see just a big, old fashioned

(03:28):
blockbuster done well and on tours.Blockbuster a tour is blockbuster if you were
Dan Scaron, maybe Dick, buthe knows, he knows how to make
a movie. Let's be honest.Did you did you hear what he did
to some of the fans who booedhim, Just flip the fans off like
something some fancy avatar Exactly. Iwould probably do the same. He just

(03:53):
went like this when he drove away. Yeah. I heard there were actually
supposedly reports where they were autograph hunterslike eBay and like that. It might
be to sell on eBay, andthat's why they were like, fuck Avatar,
blah blah blah. Yeah, ohwell, what are you gonna do?
Uh? He made a great movie. He made a good movie.
That's all I gotta say about that. We are absolutely we are discussing Avatar

(04:15):
versus Avatar the Way of Water.If you didn't see the thumbnail, if
you didn't get that from the title, we will be spoiling the Way of
Water. So if you haven't seenThe Way of Water, you might want
to put this on pause a littlebit. Because we do have six customy
man categories today, six big custommaned categories, big, big, big,
We're going back. We're going sobig. In fact, we are
gonna skip the Ed Harris Ed Harrisgame today. Yeah, because we have

(04:39):
six categories. We kind of haveto. Yeah. I mean I didn't
like the idea. I'm kind oflike annoyed by it. Honestly, I
told you guys backstage that I kindof wish we talked about this backstage.
We've got a big show. Wecan't do it this week. I will
let it like we got we gottaI will let it go. I will
I will try to let mister Harrisknow, sir Lord Harri that it wasn't

(05:00):
your fault, it wasn't my fault. Have night of him because he fucking
deserves it, So put some respectin that on his name. So we're
gonna get right into our show rightin the meadi of the to the trial,
as it were. We have sixcustomer categories as I mentioned where I
mentioned now one better hero duo coursein this case it's uh, it's worthless

(05:25):
and Zoe in both movies, andbetter, better music, better score,
better effects, better visual effects,the better villain. So basically, the
better quoritch. Uh, you know, maybe some other people you throw in
there as well, better premise,better like story basically, and finally,
in honor of the return of ActionMovie Anatomy, in case you missed it,

(05:46):
Action Movie Anatomy did return to theaction guys last night. They did
a redo of Air Force one,and it's great see the boys back,
hime. It was great to seethe boys back at action and they looked
like they were having a blast.We had a blast. It was a
lot of fun. So we hadto add fist pump back in honor because
that' where were getting from in thebeginning so Ali Smithy was hot taking coming?

(06:09):
Is that from us, Alan?Or is that from you? I
don't know, We'll have to waitand see. I guess I mean it
truly, it truly is Christmas Amais back and James Cameron brought back,
brought Avatar to to cinema. Soit's kind of it's a freaking win win.
Twenty twenty two is the year ofJoby. Yeah, unfortunately, mean't
been so far, but it is. It's the December of Jarviy. How

(06:30):
about that? Is that is thatcloser to the point? Okay, season
of Christmas of Jarviy, the Christmasof Jersey Jarvey, happy Jervy seasons.
Okay, let's go right to thetrial the better heroic duo. Before we
do that, I do a commentwander, Alan Smithy is ironic at this
movie, whose themes nature being destroyedby industry features images of nature that are

(06:54):
actually totally artificial, unnatural and createdby industrial strength willmaking. I mean,
got a point, that's a verypart. That's good point. Yeah,
as a very solid point out,you know, I kinda you know,
I kind of I see that comingfrom Alan. Alan's very an old school
filmmaker, kind of person. Ifeel like someone who enjoys the practical effects,

(07:14):
enjoys the practical scenes and stuff likethat. We don't get much of
that in Avatar. Let's be honest, it's a totally different side of things.
I don't disagree with you, butI kind of like the guy who
likes to see both. It's likehaving Star Wars like the volume and it
like the real sets as well.So yeah, I get it, though,
I get that that would be asaw we say something that would perturb
you a little bit. I getthat before we begin, May I approach

(07:39):
the bench and make a request?You may? You may approach. I
want to. I would like tostart the villain kag you're claiming villain category?
Okay, all right, that's fine, all right, jarviy Do you
have one you want to take first? Do you have one you? Because
I don't care, I'm fine.Well, why don't you start with better?
Let's just start with better? Heroicduo, the Worthless End Zoe Sam

(08:01):
Worthless, Zoe Saldana. I mean, here we go, good luck this
this this category was tougher than Iinitially thought, because different from pod.
I think Sam Worthington does a finejob. Not a great job. He
does a fine job in my opinion. I mean he plays a military grunt

(08:22):
who gets thrown into the mix ofthings, is jaded, he is paralyzed,
he doesn't have he does much carefor a living, so Through the
Road doesn't really you acquire that much. The movie does a lot of it's
heavy lifting. And also he's gota lot of c GM makeup on him,
so that kind of saves it aswell. Nay Tierry played by Zoe

(08:43):
Saldania, and now she's everything thatSam Worthington is not. I mean,
she's fiery, she's emotional, energetic, full of life, and I'm talking
about the first Avatar at the moment, like the performances one for the Agency.
We're even talking about giving her anOSCAR nomination, but that didn't go
through because he was a motion captureperformance. And the chemistry really is there.

(09:07):
I mean, sure, it's kindof a Pocahanto story, dances with
wolves, blah blah blah, it'sall there, but the chemistry is strong
there. Now. On the otherhand, the way of Water, the
characters themselves actually haven't changed as muchas I thought they would. I mean,
there's the parental instinct that's in there, which kind of overpowers everything that

(09:31):
they're doing now. But there isn'tlike much new to each of them,
and Jake especially, I think he'sstill kind of stuck in these like human
ways. He sort of treats hisfamily like unit, kids call him sir
and like so I love that partthat Jake isn't sort of gone full Navvy

(09:52):
yet there's still room for improvement.That That is the thru line that we've
been talking about. His characters alwayshave sort of a beginning and an end,
something to thrive for, and they'reall kind of flawed in this one.
But who was a major standout evenmore than the first one is Naytiri

(10:13):
in the Way of Water Now.In the first one, true, she
had that moment where they destroyed hometree her father got killed. She was
sort of in that revenge mode andspoiler alert when their son gets killed.
I mean that moment, the wayshe freaking turns into a feral beast,

(10:33):
the way she goes on a freakingrampage with Jake there. Also, Jake
is kind of in there as well, but she does a scream and I
yell and I don't know, it'slike a regal emotion that just blows through
her. That alone makes me givethis to the Way of Water. Interesting.

(10:54):
She is the driving forester. Ifeel like Jake is kind of the
same action hero type. But sheus got even better than the first one,
even though there's less of them inthe second movie. All right,
interesting you say that. I wantto point out first of all and collectus
William Harrell in the Chat always you'rethe hero of the Chat A lot of
times. I love I want alieneggs to be found in Pandora and as

(11:16):
a fight of the moon, thatis the Cameron Verus idea. I kind
of like that. I mean itactually would kind of work. It would
absolutely kind of work. Yeah.Also Gold the same more Lincoln is better.
We don't actually have to see him. I will give him that credit
as well. Well, you don'tpretty much. You don't see Sam Wrington
in the Way of Water at all. That's I think that he's I think

(11:39):
that's I think that's William's point.But I will continue from there, and
I will say that it's interesting youmentioned I'm actually surprised that you went with
Way of Water for that reason.We had a little bit of a discussion
pre chat, because we did havewe started making these categories before we actually
saw The Way of Water. Itwas the idea and obviously Avatar the Way
of Water. The Jake, Suli, and the Aria are much different.

(12:03):
There's actually we had a consideration ofmaking the brothers the heroic duo of the
Way of Water because they're more involved, but it still felt kind of weird
as a comparison to compared of thethe parents of the kids from different points
of view, So it seems stillbetter to go with both the Jakes and
the series. So with that inmind that I like that you. I'm

(12:26):
happy that you enjoyed Zoya sel Donad'sperformance in the Way of Water, and
I did agree that there's definitely someheights there, but the film actually back
seats her for a lot of thefilm. She has a lot of I
know what you mean, I mean, but she's not really in a lot
of this film. Besides, shehas like the pain in the beginning where
she does it almost and because ofthat, sometimes it feels like she's only

(12:48):
in there to scream primarily, andthen that's it, Like it seems like
she's gonna come in, She's gonnado her and then that's it. So
in some ways it lessened it forme. But I will say the ending
one with with the monkey boy therewith Spider was actually really well verto that
she got me right right to thepoint of my edge of my seat.
I'm like, wow, is sheactually gonna kill Spider? That's oh,
she was gonna, which is darkwhich is twisted to that point, and

(13:13):
I can't That's actually what I'm reallyhoping to explore more of when we get
to Avatar three. But at thesame time, I think I have to
give it to Avatar just for pureconsistency's sake. U the first one,
because they are consistent, they arethe focus, and I like we learn
a lot more from them. Itseems like in two Jake Sale maybe go

(13:39):
grow. He grows a little bit, you see a little more advanced from
his character, which was he kindof key. He went through a journey
on the first one, but hestill had the journey to make as being
a full time Navy in part two. I didn't find that man Terry did
a whole lot of growth after afterthe first Avatar, the second Avatar,
she was pretty much static the entiretime. For me, so at the
end of the day, I thinkis more heroicism and more exciting arcs for

(14:03):
both characters in the first Avatar,not as much in the second. I
will agree, though once again,that she does have high highs in the
way of Water, But I'm gonnago for consistency and give us one of
the first Avatar. I think it'sso just before you might to go.
I think it's like that for areason. Wait Nayteria, because she doesn't
adopt the way of water pretty muchat all. She doesn't ride the seahorses,

(14:26):
she doesn't bond with the Toulkun.She still writes her Akron into battle.
I think she's still very much loyalto the Amati Kai people, and
I think this story woke into Ithink it's there for a reason. But
I do get it for comparing themovies on their own right, I totally
get your reasoning. I mean,it might change after we see Avatars three,

(14:48):
four or five. All thing couldchange. Of then it makes sense.
But at this point I can onlydo with what I say, Madam,
what about you? Where are youat on this? I'm leaning more
joby on this. I feel like, okay, high, as you said
in theterious performance in the way Wateris very much like she's a loving mother,
she's a caring mother, but atthe same time she still has that

(15:11):
primal creature just not add to that, like the love of a mother losing
a child. And then you havethis savage, beast killer that's been in
her from the first film, whereasyou have Jake, who's kind of become
more passive. Yeah that he's likehe's the tribal leader, he's the father,

(15:31):
but he his only focus is tosurvive, okay, And now Nitiar
is like, no, I'm goingto kill every single one of these motherfuckers
like they hurt they killed my son. I'm gonna I'm going nuclear and I
am taking everybody. Was actually Shakewho encouraged her to go into battle,
because if you remember, she wasbroken. He was like strong heart,

(15:54):
strong heart. Then she fucking wentmental in the best way. That's a
good point. It was kind oflike Jake, he's a father, but
he's like all he needs to dois survive, and that kind of took
it away from me because like Ihate to court andor, but like now
he's ready to fight these bastards forreal. And now now I feel like

(16:15):
in Avatar three is when we're gonnasee Jake become like not only the father
and the tribal leader, but he'sgoing to take that fire from the Tarrian
be like right now, we're goingto fuck him up, all right.
So I think the highs of Nitrioutweigh the lows of Jake for me,

(16:36):
because when she really steps up andit's like, oh shit, yeah,
yeah, that was good. Wasdefinitely a strong moment. Like I said,
I didn't Avatar. She's the onethat puts two in in yes,
puts two hours in his fucking chest. And it's just like, well,
we know, we know who thealpha in the family really is. It's

(16:56):
always bad, that's absolutely true.And he's Quarrihich is still like traumatized by
but we'll get there, like we'vegot unfinished business exactly. All right.
Then let's move on to better music. Interesting. This is interesting for me
obviously. The James Horner direct composedfilm for Avatar. Unfortunately, of course

(17:17):
he passed away, or else I'msure he would have been composing the sequel.
Instead, we get a composer bythe name of Simon Franklin, who
worked on Avatar with James Horner didsome arranging, help compose the theme song,
so he was strongly involved. Soit was a nice connection throughout the
throughout the ages there, and he'sdone that through a lot of He's worked

(17:38):
with James Horner a lot, SoI guess this was probably the best choice
to go for considering considering you couldn'tget your original. So comparing the music,
it's interesting for me because I lookat my saying Simon French Gell versus
James Warner, who I love JamesWarner. James Horner created a great theme
for Avatar, obviously with help fromSimon. But I got to be completely

(18:03):
honest in that I until I watchedthe movie again, I could barely remember
the music from Avatar. I thoughtit was good. Really, I didn't
have any when I read when Iheard the theming, was like, oh
yeah, oh yeah, that's it. That's it. There's nothing anything that's
uck with me. Like throughout theyears, I have the feeling the Way
of Water is gonna stick with memore because I think Timon did a great
job of building on what was alreadycreated and he added some texture to it.

(18:27):
Again, that's not any fault ofJames Horner's it's it's just like John
Williams an Empire, Shrike's back,Jedi. You have the great thing,
you have some good themes to beginwith. You can build on it and
create new ones out of the basisof the original. And Simon made some
great work better in a way.I think, I kind of feel like
there's more to it, a littlemore, a little more, I guess,

(18:51):
ad texture to it. That's agood point. I don't say it
real quick alan to me, it'sa similar theme to the Glory score kind
of is it is. I haven'tseen Glory is one of those movies that
but I know what he's getting.I know what you mean. Yeah,
I also want to say reefism isin there. He wants to wish as
a family and Merry Christmas, Thankyour Reism. I'm guessing hard to what

(19:12):
is happy to see your refism inthe chats there. So I guess by
the end of the day, Igotta go with the way of water for
this, which is surprising to me, exciting. I look at it.
Originally was like it's gonna be Jameshorneer because James Horner a fucking legend.
Simon does a great job building onthe great basis, So I'm gonna go
with Way of Water, Surevey,how about you? I am in completely

(19:37):
the other direction than I think SimonFranklin. He coasted through that movie with
some resemblance of the epicness that wasJames Horner. I mean he did just
enough so it didn't ruin the moviefor me, But like there was James

(20:00):
Horner created such a great theme,such great like sounds, sort of powerful
moments. There was like there wasnovelty there and that then he sort of
introduced the theme in there like SimonFranklin. I don't know, he tries
he uses some of the same beatsthat James Horner did, but there was

(20:22):
no through like there was no maintheme that went through the movie. For
me, there was like bits andpieces here and there, but he didn't
sort of commit to like a maintheme. It's something in a James Cameron
movie. Something that I always wantis like like a through line, like
a theme, like a I don'tknow. They they kind of went back

(20:42):
and forth trying to new things,trying to bring in the old. I
mean, that's the way to doit, but something didn't quite like click
for me, and if we're talkingbetter music, we got to talk about
the two soundtracks as well. LikeLeona Lewis I See You versus the Waekends.
I think that what's the name ofthe song? Well, jeeus sound

(21:07):
tootal blanking. I just had it, you know the song I'm talking about?
Yeah, nothing is lost there.I think it's I think the wind
freaking awesome. The way it starts, it sort of brings in the power
and then sort of the tribal sounds. But Leona Lewis with I See You,
I mean that was sort of likeit was like the Titanic Celine Young

(21:32):
song. For me, it wasit's one of the one of the great.
So this was an easy Avatar twothousand and nine for me. Okay,
fair, fair points, All right, Maddie, that's let us up
here. Which one are you gonnago with? Again? It seems like
Christmas with Job because I meaning Imean towards Job as well. I'm gonna
start by saying my biggest problem withthe Avatar score is it goes from very

(21:53):
tranquil to very powerful and amsphare,but there's no like in between points.
It's either one extreme or the other. I am a fan of the Weekend.
My Dear Melancholy is a great album. They should not have put him
on that song he does. Hedoes not have the voice for that song.

(22:15):
He's very much a crooner. He'san R and B vocalist. You
need someone the likes of Paul.You appreciate someone like Adam Lambert who can,
like well Hower behind his voice tocarry those notes and or due respect
to sorry, I forget the general'sname that composed this score. To me,
this score, the score for WhereWater sounded like a tribute album to

(22:40):
the Avatar score. And I getthat's probably what That's probably what they went
in looking to do a tribute toJames Horner. But to me, it
sounded like a cover album. Interesting. It sounded like they were they were
thinking, what would James Horner do? I don't have to watch the water
again, because you guys are totallyshifting my view on these things. Maybe
I'm wrong, all right, Andit was very much like they went what

(23:02):
would James Horner do? Not whatwhat would I do? And to pay
tribute to James Horner. There wasno creative artistic stamp on it. It
was like they just did what JamesHorner would do. And as I said,
the Weekend did not belong in thatsong. That was not good.
I think it's respectful though. Theway he did it though, that's why
I kind of liked about it.But you need it, you need sort
of a maestro to bring in,like sort of be the composer, like

(23:27):
for example, John Williams or hantZimmer. You need a big name for
that type of movie. And SalmonFranklin. Unfortunately, maybe he will get
there. He's not there yet.He's not there yet, I was saying,
So Maddy's saying it even more.Queen, Yeah, you know what,
absolutely, I mean, Queen wouldblow them both away obviously. I
mean, even if you're going togo with a high end pop singer,

(23:47):
are On Grande would rush that track. But the reason the Weekend, let's
be fair, the reason The Weekendwas on that track is just because he
sold out a worldwide stadium. Sohe's a hard commodity right now. Yeah,
that's why he's on the soundtrack.One hundred percent that I agree with
that aspect of it, to besure, but actually never, I mean
to be completely honest, and thismight be uh, this might be sacrilegous

(24:10):
to you guys. Sorry, butthe song from two thousand and nine,
Avatar, I didn't really register tome, the lowest one. Yeah,
I didn't. I kind of like, fine, whatever, I could have
taken her leave, and that couldhave been so many different people that have
been that one as well, Ithought, in a way better. But
all right, all right, interesting, interesting enough, we get an interesting
battle so far here for sure,I'm going to number three, better effects,

(24:33):
better visual effects. Now, thisis a tough one to do.
It is weird. It's a weirdone to do. I mean, because
you got I'll guess I'll try towalk my way through it. Avatar kind
of began it all obviously and didall the works. It's almost like like
my first gut instoin, because well, Avatar created all this stuff, was

(24:53):
the first one to really take advantageof the three D right way and the
CGI's phenomenal. But then Avatar theWay of Water, did so much with
it and also added the whole watercapture thing which had never been done before
as well. So again it's breakingthings. So what do you do do
you go with the It's like almostlike in a way, it's a little
like the score battle. Is itthe og thing that broke it in?

(25:15):
Or is it the what used theoriginal stuff perhaps better with a little bit
of a decade plus worth of worthof time to develop even more. I
don't know if we're ever going tosay that Avatar the Way of Water was
as revolutionary. So it's hard togo back to that way except again except

(25:37):
for the water sequences for example.So I go back and forth in my
head. But I think in onehundred years we'll were talking about Avatar,
the original Avatar, for what itdid with its graphics and of these visual
effects. I think Avatar two willbe more of a an afterthought in a
way because in a way, likesay it's even ten years from now,

(25:59):
if we're still doing this and we'reeven doing the water capture stuff. Mike
A note, Yeah, the Wayof Water really worked out is but it
also was still originally based on whatthe ground broken by the original Iverturn in
two thousand and nine. So ina case where they're both similar, they're
both very good. I feel likeI gotta go with the original for because
of its the original, it's goingto be it's the revolutionary a thing that

(26:19):
got us all into the ballpark inthe first place. That makes sense.
I think your your legacy factor.Bringing in the legacy factor into this category
is a very interesting take. Idid not think of that. Now you
can think of it. We'll letyou go last. I'll go because I
don't really have much to add tothis other than I want to shout out

(26:42):
the guys that Heroes reforged. Iwas watching their their like commentary of Avatar,
the first Avatar, and obviously thoseguys Adam Hector Augustine they have a
background of visual effects, and theywere talking about how like the difffferent tones
of green, the different tones ofblue in Avatar the way war, and

(27:04):
I was like, huh, that'snot only the water captures you mentioned,
Paul, but like it. Theyexpanded on the different color schemes, like
you look at the vines in Avatar, they're just kind of like block green
here and block blue there, andsomething that they also pointed out a lot,
like the flying sequences kind of blurryin the background, and I was

(27:26):
like, it took me that tonot so like, yeah, but we
cannot fall James Cameron for that becausethat was the technology at the time right
as revolutionary areas it was, that'swhat he was working with. It was
groundbreaking at the time. To me, It's just the visuals in the Way
of Water, absolutely stunning, especiallywhere they went to like what was it

(27:48):
the spirratory. Was it called PalmTree? No, thing that was kind
It was of the same thing.Yeah, you know where they go under
water and she has this seizure andstuff, like all the underwater colors and
stuff. There's different in purple andblue. I was like, wow,
that is pre so I think justfrom a aesthetic. Look, I'm going

(28:14):
to have to give it to youa h she said. He looks at
home tree again. Oh all right, So Crystal. Crystal was actually in
the screening with me when we watchedthe movie, sorry for the second time,
and he's agreeing exactly. He's agreeingwith everything I say. So I'm

(28:34):
here for it. That's all.That's all good. Not enjoy Avatar The
Way of Water three out of five. Wow kind of hurt me a little,
hear me, But all right,go ahead. Yeah, this this

(28:55):
category is it's weird and a difficultone to talk about. I mean,
there's really nothing bad to say abouteither movie for me, even when I
watched they re released Avatar in thecinemas a few months ago. That was
like, there's pretty much nothing Iwould change, except for the fact that

(29:15):
the way Water did was the higherframe rate bits, which I really loved
and I didn't think I would becauseI could not stand it in the Gemini
Man. I could not stand itin the Hobbit. But when they go
underwater, that's like it's just nextlevel. Everything is so fluid. It
looks great. But it's not justthe water stuff that blew me blew me

(29:38):
away. It's the Metica, youknow, it's the water people that kind
of got redone in a new wayand they like truly like Mattie, you
said it yourself, it's it's adifferent shade. There's a different aspect the
way they're designed there, like,so I think that's also part of the
effects, the way that these carearacterswere sort of their different bodies. They're

(30:02):
like hands are weird like Vinny,their tails are different, the movement.
I think everything sort of compiles tothe effects bit in that part as well,
so that it really did. Itreally did, and the animals everything
and the action as well. Likethe first one, I'd say the action

(30:26):
In both movies they kind of canceleach other out effects and like the way
they gripped me. But it's thehigher framemate frame rate that made the action
and the second one, I meaneven better. I have to go with
the second one. I know it'skind of an unfair advantage for the second
one because the technology is better now, but I gotta go with it.

(30:51):
Yeah, it doesn't always mean better. It's quite how I met your mother,
you know, there isn't all that. All right, all right,
we'll go well, what a slidefor now, Let's move on to a
better villain. This is Maddie ischomping at the bit, obviously without a
doubt. Avatar away of water andagainst I get. Stephen Lang is the

(31:12):
main villain. He threatens together children, he wants tope out the navy,
but I'm gonna skip him because otherthan hunting, other than you know,
hurting women and children, there isnothing in this world that pisses me off
more than hunting for sport, huntingfor food, like I can understand,

(31:33):
but if you hunt animals for asport, you are the biggest piece of
ship, Like fuck you. Andevery single second that Brendan Cowell was on
screen, I wanted to do unspeakablyviolent things to him, Like my both
my fists were clenched the entire timehe was on screen, Like when he
was that bit where he takes thebile out of the a the tolkoon and

(31:56):
he just leaves the rest of thebody in the ocean and kills the cub.
Like it got such a visceral reactionout of me that I was just
like, I it woke me up, because leading on to that, I
was kind of a lull in thesecond part, but then that happened,
and I was just like, youpiece of fucking shit. Like every time

(32:17):
he came on human feel I justwanted to like reach through the screen and
strangle him with my own two hands, because if you are someone that hunts
for sport, you are just fuckingscum in my eyes. So like for
them to portray that that, oh, that that got to me, That

(32:38):
really got to me. Wow.He even says it like the mother is
not gonna leave its cub. It'sgonna be by its side and that will
make it slower. You're like whenhe when he says when he says,
oh, I'm the one with aharpoon. Oh yeah, that makes you
a big fucking man, done it, you fucking pussy, Just the same
with any other hunter with a gun. Oh yeah, you're a big fucking

(33:00):
because you got a gun. No, you're a fucking bitch sport fuck you.
Wow, it's not just for sport, it's for like the eighty million
that's in there. But I agreethe way he hunted that to coon,
he was like, oh, isn'tthat beautiful? Like that was yeah,

(33:22):
But I you know it comes fromif that had been like if I'd have
been watching this in my home,I would have been screaming my house down.
But there were children in the inthe theater, so I had to
like temper my my rage. Butlike I happened, both my fists were
clenching, I was itching. Iwas getting like really fucking angry. I
can tell I can tell interesting thing, Like it's such an interesting thing between

(33:44):
us because I'm not a big fanof un Report either. But I didn't
even consider this guy as part ofthe villains. I just consider him a
piece of ship, almost like aseparate the worst. I'm not even gonna
dignify him as a ship. Itwas just a common Oh yeah, okay,
right, well I have to thinkabout that is my mind enough,
because I'll tell you right now.I mean obviously you're going with Wave of
Water that Maddy, Yeah, okay, because I I really just put this

(34:07):
up initially as the which chorage isbetter and to me by far would part
and nine Coorage is much better thanthe the Davi Korach version I think the
Navi. I Okay, here's thething. This is one of my negatives
of Avatar Way of Water. Andit's not a big not a big negative
because obviously I look past it.But the fact that Steven Lang is even

(34:30):
back, even though I love StephenLang, just seemed fucking ridiculous to me,
like they're gonna waste the money oflike downloading his personality and putting him
into a blue navy where they couldjust have next general up in line come
and take over. Like doesn't makeit, Like why I don't think you
can't explain it. Why I committedhar Is coming in absolutely if anybody anybody

(34:52):
else could have come in like thatwould have been the play. Okay,
So Stephen Lang did come in,so Edni Falcon, Yeah, she comes
in, So that's your bad guyactual back out for the film necessarily,
you don't mean Coors back except forso it just seemed like, touch on,
all right, we need Stephen Lang, we want Stephen Lang, Bax,
we need to kind of find outwith some So it seems like it's
an obvious play that actually took meout a little bit. Kind of really,

(35:12):
that's what we're going with now.It is sci fi. It is
you know, good Google goggly scifi talk. Okay, fine, I
can accept it. I can acceptthat for a lot of sci fi films.
I accept a lot of it forany kind of sci fi film.
So I accepted it, But there'ssomething that was seemed to be missing for
me. I didn't like the Ilike the purity of Qorich as this bad

(35:36):
guy human who hated the Navies.To me, that Chorush would have hated
being a Nave, would never haveaccepted being a Navy. He just that's
not his thing. He is hisown man, and he would have if
you had his memories in place,he would be like, I want my
own body back somehow. So Ijust didn't like that whole aspect of it.
He is good. I did kindof like a lot of it.
But at the same time, theend of the film, we obviously have

(36:00):
the whole storyline with Spider being hisson, which, by the way,
what, how the where does thathappen? Who's he? Who's he going
with? Who's he with? Doyou have any idea like that? No?
Who did? Who did Spider's mom? Who's Spider's mom? Like she's
born there? I can't remember didthey say that? I mean missing,
They didn't say it. They didn't. Just Lang was banging some check on

(36:22):
on Pandora somehow. Yeah, andand he was born. I mean,
I guess in a way, butit just seems like it's a weird thing.
It's kind of like a an tothe old g I, you know
thing. And I mean exactly hewas, he was right, but like
whatever, I don't know, itjust it seemed a lot to me.

(36:44):
And then I try to like makethis whole thing that he has this like
I feel like we're going to geta redemptive arc with him now maybe potentially
with the whole Spider and I don'tlike it. I don't want him as
a redemptive arc. I just thinkit's a bad choice for him. But
I think because Spider brings him backand he actually relents, and you show
him have heart when when the Cheriis about to kill Spider. I didn't

(37:07):
like it because it just didn't seemagainst it seems against everything he was saying
and doing. I mean, Iguess it's always I can see why people
like it for his humanity, showinghis humanity, making give him some more
layers. But to me, Idon't want him to have redemptive arc.
I don't want him to be Ithink he's a piece of shit. I
think he should be a piece ofshit the entire way through giving him any
sort of heart, this seems likeI don't I don't know. I didn't

(37:28):
like that aspect of it either,So that turned me off a little bit
of it. Compared to the StephenLang who is he might be more of
like as a mustach twirling villain inthe first one, but he seemed more
pure and real to me because italso seems like he's like, you know,
I'm doing my job. This iswhat I do. This is what
I do, and that's how that'sthat's what the some of the best villains

(37:51):
do. That's like, it's nothing, not a passionate thing. It's not
personal, it's business and that's whathe does. So I gotta give this
one to the first app even thoughMatt it didn't make me think about Actually
I did like not like the Hunterguy, get that. I don't get
that, But overall, I gottago a better Qorage. And then to
me is two thousand and nine.So driving it's up to you. We're

(38:13):
we have had one category where allthree of us have agreed. You both
make great points. Yeah, thisis the case of human quorach versus Navi
quorach, and I gotta agree thereappeally that like the two thousand and nine
Quarrich, the human Quoras, he'sjust your pure badass military villain. He

(38:35):
hammers every nail, he's like,has to take control of every situation.
There's nothing redeemable about him, andyou don't need that. You can have
just a badass, villainous character.And for that, I mean Steven Lang
is freaking perfect. But this isnot the same Quorach. He even says
it himself, I'm a different man. And also being in a Knavi body

(38:59):
like, he rejects it at first. He is freaking outraged. He who
just wants to kill everybody, killeverybody in his way. But I think
being in an avatar bodies he didsomething to Jake. Sure he fell in
love with the people and with Natiri, but I think it connected him more
to the nature and like his surroundings. And I think the same thing is
slowly happening to Quorach as a Navi. You see the change in him.

(39:22):
Their Spider on the other hand,like he's also humanized, Navi ising not
humanizing him. He's the he's thecub those boys that he's he is essentially
Mowgli. Yeah, much Space Starson. But I mean, so we

(39:43):
got the fully unredeemable Quorage, andI think in the second one we needed
something different. If we've got inthe same corriage, I don't know.
I I kind of like the notI don't want him redeemed. I get
like this sort of this even feelsa little like they're going to Kylo Renway
sort of he has the Knights ofrend He sort of he's sort of finding

(40:04):
his sort of emotional core, buthe doesn't. He doesn't. So something
that Christal said to me as wellafter the movie is like, in the
third or fourth one, I betthey're going to be fighting together against another
thread. So I agree that issomething I don't want. But I mean,

(40:27):
Quora says it himself, you haven't, you haven't. What's it
called not the navy right marines?Marines in an avatar body that's opponentent mix.
And like, on top of that, we got freaking scores by who's
a whale killer? Now, ifyou got two quaritches going heads ahead,

(40:51):
it's tougher to decide, but scoresbe freaking that's just the way of water.
Because I fucking hate this dude asmuch as I hated Geoffrey, as
much as I hated the other guyfrom the Game of Thrones whose name I'm
blanking on. That was a reactionfrom me that I've never had in a
cinema. I had to look away. I had to calm myself. I

(41:12):
told myself, this is a movie, this is a movie. It didn't
freaking help. I got so fuckingangry. And that's like the beauty of
a villainous character. Before I goon, I didn't want to bring up
I want to bring up something thenthat I forgot to bring up when I
was talking about my villains, becauseafter two thousand nine, doesn't just have
courage. It has Parker Selfridge,Giovanni Ribisi's cot. Yeah, that's ahel

(41:37):
and that's a big ship weasel,and I love a good ship weasel for
a movie. And so that ad. That's another reason why I lean towards
the original Lavatar because he wait,something about his accent just pisses me off
at the way he's just the wayhe cock. It's such a snotty accent.
Any way, he's such he's he'sone of the better shiit weasels I've
seen in the twentieth century. Honestly, is making. He just has his

(41:59):
whole thing is like like find anothertree. It's a tree. All places
to fill the trees tree. SoI love his So that's where I'm gonna
go with as well. And I'llkeep him as well on the fill inside.
Not trying and change your mind,but I did want to throw that
out there as well. It makessense. No, he's a villainous character
more so, all right, let'sgo to better premise, uh, better

(42:24):
story. Basically at this point wherewe're gonna go here, Jarvy, I'm
gonna let you leave this off.I'm gonna go last on this one because
quite Frankly, you guys have havebeen two to one on me every single
category. Which way I go BeforeI do that, I will say Chrystal
saying, also the Fast and Furiouswith coliade ucoming Habitar movies, you will
Avatar to Diesel and open the cast. That's true Avatars. Diesel supposedly is

(42:47):
in Avatar. Two. We don'tknow where Don's voice's supposed to. Three.
Yes, he is. He actuallyis. He's enlisting, and so
I don't know what he is inthere. I don't know if he's I
don't know if his part on Pandoraor something. I don't know. That's
a good question. But he's init, isn't the listening that's true?
Maybe maybe I don't know, Maybehe's just to or he's the seahorse that

(43:14):
they sort of just of course,sel won Glade the chat as well.
I think is gonna leave the humansto become ruler over warring they mean mountains
of lava fire versus water. Sorry, I'd actually almost prefer that then have
them fighting on the same side.I wouldn't mind seeing that because maybe I
don't want to on the same side. That's I'm saying. I don't want

(43:35):
to fight it the same size,so you have the war lava trivers like
that, I have to fight betweentwo nobby tries. Fighting might be different
than having the third Humans versus anOBVI storyline. Potentially, just thought,
I thought, I like where whereSean's head is with that? So all
right, better premise Jarvis, letus off with this one. Okay,
So I'm gonna do it quick.Grant about the story of both Avatar movies

(43:57):
before people say the fucking Originals story. So James Cameron, James Cameron said
it himself in an interview this,and I totally get it. The Avatar
movies aren't supposed to be your originalstories that sort of challenge you and be
super ggie. These are movies thatare meant for the widest audience possible,

(44:21):
So the story has to be relativelysimple. And that has been a that's
something that he did on purpose,that the stories are very easily digestible for
both of these movies. So Iknow, it kind of sounds like an
excuse. I get it. There'san argument out there where that argument can

(44:42):
be made. But all right,so let's get into the actual category.
I feel like both these movies areactually very similar with their premises and the
stories. The second one, Imean, even to a there was a
moment when I was actually very muchworried about the way of water. The

(45:02):
way it started off, it waslike, B four be the first one.
It even showed us the same sortof clips from the first one.
But eventually that they get to themetica, you know, and then it's
a whole other ballgame. I feellike, again, both movies sort of
have this ecological message. The firstone is more about the forest. The

(45:23):
second one is about the oceans andhow like sort of the water connects it
all, and then you have thehumans who want to take advantage of it
for their own financial gain. Soit's really tough to do so, I

(45:46):
mean, I know my thoughts areall over the place with the premise because
they're so damn familiar yet different.But I think it's I got to bring
this category to which one transport artedme more into the world with the story
that it told me. Because thefirst one, the first one kind of

(46:08):
so I was thinking all the time, I was thinking, how are they
doing this? This is amazing,I'm into this. The second one was
I pretty much forgot that I waswatching a movie altogether, I felt like
I was in the movie. Thiswas happening to me. I couldn't shake
the feeling of, you know,these characters are actually real so and I

(46:32):
think it's the revenge story and theparenting side that kind of took it over
the edge for me. I know, my thoughts are all over the place,
like what I think. I gotto bring it to the fact that
The Way of Water just robbed meof all my other senses and I was

(46:52):
so damn into the story. Interesting, interesting, okay before I'm gonna let
you take over, Maddie. ButChristo watches the story is simple and similar.
How can it still be a fivestar movie? Three D was awesome?
But that's not enough. Who saidit's a fire star movie? I
don't know. I don't know.I'm just saying I don't know. No
one said it. Do you thinkit's a five star movie? No?

(47:14):
Okay, fair patron partist does Itdoes have a lot of five stars movies,
That's absolutely true, set a lotof fives, So I mean,
I can quickly wrap this category upin the like I appreciated the themes A
Way of Water more. Shout outto Sea Shepherd organization for what they do

(47:36):
to protect the ocean. That's abig sticking point for me. I love
that the clan of protecting the oceanand the creatures of it. That was
a big sticking point for me.But I felt like there was too many.
It was like the tree. Therewere like so many branches going off.
You have the ark with the kids, the ark with the ocean,
the ark with them settling into thetribe. My brain was just like whoa,
okay, slow, slowed down,Let me get my let me get

(47:59):
my bearings it. But the firstone was very much Jake's infiltraying the Navy,
falls in love, realizes what he'sdoing is wrong, and sets out
and make it right. If Cameron'sgoing for simplicity, that's the way he
needs to go. And I feellike with the second one, he was

(48:19):
he had so much that he wantedto say and rightfully should have said.
But it was very much like whomthere you go. If you'd have maybe
like split it into two and three, and I get this is me being
like, okay, it's a three. I don't like three and a half
hour long movies. But I feellike the message the messages he had in
Avatar two were great, and thethemes he wanted to explore were great,

(48:42):
but I feel like he was justwanted to shove like so much in a
one time that I was just kindof like, wait, wait, wait,
wait, wait, hold on,what are we looking at right now?
Whereas the first one I was justlike, okay, cool, one
through line, plot, cool,I get it cool with good, So
I'm going to give it to Avatar, all right. Interesting point. I'm
actually so there's finally a time thatI won't be two to one because you

(49:06):
were with a split your decisions.Finally you're on the same phage of the
first time all episode, and I'mgonna say I'm gonna side more with Mattie,
I think, because to me,I agree the simplest secness of the
story is part of what makes itwork. I think the way Water gets
a little too complex, It kindof tries to copy and paste a little
bit of the story, but thenkind of add on to it, added
a little more, too many morecharacters. I think as well. I

(49:29):
had a hard time at points goingwait, who's that again? That's oh,
that's the way, that's that one, or that's that one I did.
I felt it, and not onlythat, but I felt like it
didn't know what movie you wanted tosay, tell it. It wanted to
tell two movies and one like thewhole middle section, which I don't mind
the slow burn. It's not thatI minded it. I didn't mind the
length of the film. I didn'tmind the different tastes on things. But

(49:50):
I was like in a different movieand all of a sudden, the fucking
hunting ship shows up, and Ialso went, oh, yeah, there's
this part of the movie. Nowwe're in a different thing. Does it
seems like it's like two different moviesand one it's like trying to do too
much. I think if you wantto make it simplistic a little bit to
really showcase we want to do.The first one is definitely The Way to
Go. It's a much more simplictic, straightforward, straightforward to having the right
word. But it does what itneeds to do better because the Way Water

(50:15):
tries to repeat a lot of thosebeats and just do them in similar and
do try to do them in differentfashions. It's still about like the whole
trip to the the see people there, the water people. It basically is
trying to repeat Jake going into theI agree, now, just the Knave
going into the other tribe. Itjust felt like a repeat of the same
thing, trying to be a cleverway to do it. I guess,

(50:37):
fine, I guess, But atthe same time, I think it just
it felt like a waste a timeand we didn't need that aspect of it
because otherwady that also didn't make toomuch sense. Okay, so they know
Spider knows where they are. Sohere's the thing about it too that kills
me to me, Okay, soSpider gets taken and Jiguli and family leave

(50:58):
because Spider knows their location. SoJacin and the family leave. If Spider
does know their location, is afraidthey're gonna come. You're gonna leave the
whole tribe on their own to faceQuoriz and company instead of trying to move
it like them leaving is like abandonedthe goal. Well, they're gonna come,
fuck you up. We're gonna beover here in a way, even

(51:20):
if it's like a way to tryto like even if to wade try to
like supposedly, they they kind ofspout it out like they were trying to
draw them away, But that doesn'tmake any sense because Spider knows where they
are, and that's where they're gonnago first, even if they're gonna find
out later on they left. Youthink that the humans are gonna stop there
or they're gonna do what they're gonnado because their insurance too. They've been

(51:43):
certains with Jake Sally. You don'thave the leader, but they're gonna take
care of well, we're here,mles, We'll take care of these these
people, these creatures, and thenwill go find Jake Sudian family. So
I didn't like that aspect of thestory either. It felt like a weird
decision that was made by Jacob.They knew that the cry Out people didn't
know where they went. Doesn't matterthough, because that's just basically saving their

(52:04):
bacon. It's just saving his baconbecause you're still leaving the rest of the
tribe to face saving the tribe becausehe has no reason to touch them because
they don't know where he is.You think, do you think that Koritch
is going to care about that hedidn't touch him, Well, he should
have. That's my problem because thechorus and the chorus that we know is

(52:24):
like well, these guys, becauseit wasn't like Jake was the only one
being insurgent. There's a whole tribeof insurance there. We're going to take
care of the insurgents. It's likeall Sam bin Laden's not there, So
we're gonna leave these terrorists here becausethey're not doing anything. We leave them
alone. You shouldn't bring real lifeinto this, but that's what tries it
bothered. I get the point you'retrying to make. Ye, they're gonna

(52:45):
leave the insurgents there. That's that'syour plan. You're gonna leave the insurgents
behind to face them on their own. I don't know. It bothered me
a little bit. Again, Iguess that's a long way of saying that.
To me, it was two morecomplex than it needed to be Comparatively,
the first one I like a littlebetter story wise, so I'm gonna
go with even though I like,I'm gonna say this right now, actually
enjoyed Way of Water better as amovie overall. Surprising enough, I did

(53:07):
like the storyline of Avatar one better. When when you guys were talking,
I remember to keep hard why Ilike the Way of Water more In the
first one, Jake sort of makesthe choice that he's now he wants to
be part of the nobby. Hewants to fight for the good guys in
that sense, go against the humans. So that was his choice. In

(53:28):
the second one, he sort ofdeprived of the choice. He doesn't want
to leave his people. He hasto go because he wants to save his
family. When when they get there, he doesn't want to fight the humans,
but he has to. At thelike the final moment, when there's
nothing else to do, he knowsthat he has to fight into everything for
him. He's deprived of choice prettymuch the entire way, and he just

(53:52):
does it because there's a parental instinctto him. So that's that was a
big thing that I that I lovedabout The Way of Water. Also in
a storyline, these characters, thesecreatures, these the society, the fact
that they have music mad philosophy thatI was like, Okay, that's going
a bit too far. When hestarted talking with with the Tokens, actually

(54:14):
conversing, I was like, ohwow, okay, there were going that
way. But I still enjoyed it. I think it was like an intense
emotional moment there. That's fair point. Christian also was saying thought you rated
five is bad? I went fourpoint five because they said he didn't like
the music and the actor who playedSpider got awful. Oh my god,

(54:37):
that was awful, awful character.That was an awesome character. Sorry,
bad performance I was a big fanof For me there, I still think
he was worse than the Worthless,but that's okay. I still think Worthless
was worse than him, but that'sokay. Although I will say, you
know what, I will give creditre credits to you. I do think
Worthless was better in a way ofwater than he wasn't initial, But that's
not saying a whole lot better thanhe was in the shack, that's true.

(55:00):
Yeah, him and Jai Cortney shouldgo in a car and leave Hollywood
and never come back. All right, then let's move on to the sixth
and final back. It's such aweird, such a weird, like getting
your car and drive. Oh no, you didn't. All right, Let's

(55:24):
move on. Let me let megoogle the nearest Birds unit birthday. We
can shut up, all right,So how about better fist pump moments in
honor of Aim coming back? Well, Jarvi as one of the o G
action army people, and I was, Jarvy, can you describe a fist

(55:47):
pump for us? If you wantto know what a fist pump is,
It's something that happens in a movie. Can be anything. It can be
the opening credits. It can bea conversation between father and son. Or
it can just be a moment whereI mean an mt A office operator just
confesses that he took the money andhe needed it to put his daughter through

(56:07):
school. It can be any momentthat you just love and it makes you
physically fist pump. You're like,goddamn, I can't wait to watch the
rest of this movie makes that Itmakes you pausitively the street. Now it's
not a DVD anymore. To streamers, you gotta pauseive streamer. You call
up driving You're like, Darvy,what are you doing? You're at a
funeral. I don't care. They'llbe those story They're not going anywhere.

(56:29):
Go to your home, put onthe DVD forever, tarity of it up
in your phone, your phone,watch it now, watch it right now.
And that's what this pump is.We actually had done this with p
L. We have each other,but you know what I mean, we
have to come up with a differentdifferent You're gonna have to You're gonna have

(56:51):
to come up with a different name. May I go, because I have
one that is the definitive fish pumpof Bush movie, both movies. When
that piece of ship gets the fuckingarm, gets his arm held with his
own harpoon, and the guy says, who's got the harpoon? Now?
He just when he dies? Ohit was. It was almost all gasmic.

(57:15):
How how much karma is a fuckingbitch? That was karma suture right
there. It felt so so good. What's that? Did your cinema clap?
No? But I I was like, fuck yeah, that is.

(57:36):
I mean the the in the firstone, her put in the two arrows
in the chest. That's a coolmoment, him learning to ride the I
forget what the fly that. That'scool. But there was no bigger fist
pump. Seeing that motherfucker held theretrying to pull away, and then just
watching his arm come off like theTalcoun's hit, like his fin that got

(57:58):
severed, and he was like,hey, bro, fucking eye for an
eye on for an arm, bitch, fuck you scores. But did he
survive though? No, he didthis is sci fi. This is Are
you gonna swim back to shore withone arm? You know? You find

(58:19):
a way, you got legs,You got to get his grab onto something,
grab onto a door and float onthe Oh that's the movie, don't
I already had Brandon Hannah correct meon that one. Okay, I would
have climbed on board and sort offlipped the door and like or not.
Uh fucking really, chat there?Wave water do for me? It's not

(58:42):
close. Two thousand and ninety isvery little for me. Again. Got
to realize it's the categories. It'salways the category. I agree that wave
water is for me, but I'veactually voted probably more for Avatar for the
categories themselves. Interestingly enough. Okay, so then Mattie, he's gonna say,
because of that, then wave waterwhen that category, Yeah, okay,
okay, that's good. Fuck thatguy. Let's give it to me.

(59:06):
Give you what do you think?Yeah? Avatar two thousand and nine
has what Matti said, one ofthe one of the greatest fist pumps and
cinematic history is when he goes hegets the grun and he goes for that
first flight, he flies around.So what whenever they are airborne when he
gets to roch Macta and like allthe flying scenes just mesmerizing friggin perfect.

(59:29):
And when Jake first enters his avatarbody, when he finally gets the use
of his legs, he runs outthat door he eats the fruit. I
mean, another sort of transportational momentin the Way of Water. Another one
you mentioned the losing of the arm, the cinema freaking clap. They cheered
high, cheered, and so prettymuch everything with the tool Coons and especially

(59:57):
Payak Gun to me was I mean, it's not a fist pump per se,
but it is an emotional exploit andan explosion of emotion kind of a
moment. And there was sort ofan MCU moment when sort of the Mets
gay in as they went to waron their seahorses and like the wings spread

(01:00:17):
up and they just like breaking allflu in there. So I don't know,
both of these kind of cancel eachother out for me, but yeah,
I have I have to go withwhat I have here. I'm I'm
going with the Way of Water againbecause of the emotional fist pump moment that

(01:00:40):
was gripping to me with the Tolcoonswith Pia gun and the moment where it
freaking rips his arm off. Imean there's like two of the like the
best type of moments that sort ofget to me. And the Way of
Water just you know, did itmore to me? All right, all
right, it's up to me.I say it's two to one again,
we'll find out it's not. It'sthree. Oh. I agree with you

(01:01:02):
guys. Are on the Way ofWater. I do think that my favorite
fist pump moments. I have twofist put moments, both from Way of
Water that really got me. Itwas payakon saving the kids. It comes
out of the water and starts likeit starts the battle, basically starts the
whole battle at that point. Thatwas it. That was the Stall Wars
moment right there. As soon asthat happened, I was just thinking,
there's always a bigger fish that's sogood. And beyond that what we talked

(01:01:27):
four about Nate too, No,that too, that too, but the
naysiri uh primal rage moment when theworthless has to calmer down and then she
goes like and she she focuses andit's like, okay, it's a badass.
Now it's a fist put moment forme as well, so I'll give
it a way of water as well. Not much else to talk about there,
so we have decided. At thispoint, it looks like we have
gone through this entire battle. I'mnot surprised, I guess I would say

(01:01:52):
I'm surprised winning by way of winningby a score of ten to seven.
Oh, ten to seven? Oris that possible? Notes, I didn't
never mind take that back ten two, I got one, two, three
four Take that car. I ampulling in Jarvey, but I'm correcting myself.

(01:02:16):
That's why I do. I correctmyself before we actually announced it.
Eleven to seven, eleven to seven. It is Avatar the Way of Water,
which makes a lot of sense.It does make a lot of sense.
A lot of people liked it betterfor some three, so it does
make sense for me. That's wherewe're gonna end that particular What what's that?

(01:02:42):
I don't you gotta share that Avatarone? Leave it there? Hey?
What my god? Right? Whatis this? I don't I don't
know what's going on here, butit seems like there's somebody else that's wants
something a little different happening here.Oh my oh, Oh my god,
it's that Harris. It's the Abyss. It's the abyss coming in. Oh

(01:03:08):
my god, look at that point, the music that he's passed. He
did not. You're not gonna lethim to do. I can't believe this.
That's right, folks. It isthe Abyss versus the Avatar, the

(01:03:30):
Way of Water. Right now,he's cash. I just did the abyss
right now, he's cashing in thetitle shot, just like, just like
Stone Cold Wood, we should havejust played the better water film. What's
the better the o g James catherinWater Film played Harris game Jesus Christ.

(01:03:57):
All right, let's do it.Let's get it. Not be prepared for
this, but we're doing it rightnow, better heroic duo. I'm gonna
leave this fucker off right now.You got Ed Harris for the Sam Worthless
chase fucking close. Ed Herrick's gonnawin this one. Prove me wrong,
maybe, but Mary a little bitof master. It's far closer to Zoe's
Saltana than Sam Wordless is even closeto being on the m of Ed Harris's

(01:04:21):
pants. Okay, I'm not evengonna bother arguing that point, but I
will add that I think Ed HarrisonZoe Saldana probably would have been the better.
Was that again, Ed Harrison ZooeySaladana. I feel like if those
two I feel like that, Iwill agree with that. I'm not.

(01:04:45):
I am a better man than that. I know when when to when to
back away, back away. Okay, so they're gonna vote for the bust
of that as well, Jarvy,You're gonna break the heart this. I
mean this. This is a categorywhere you have to explain yourself, not
just pick your favorite. This isexactly what class action is, not is
what you guys are doing right now, he resurrections again. Bring me some,

(01:05:09):
bring me some seasoning? Right there? I hear nothing. I just
hear in sea screaming. I needan argument. Ed Harris the earthiest care
playing the earth character of Bud Ridman, the down and just the everyman to
the perfect degree. He rises tothe occasion. He is not a grunt,

(01:05:31):
a military grunt, and yet hestill does everything right to say the
day he faces off against the aliensin a much better way than Jake Suli
You ever did, and he talksto them into saving the world. He
saves his marriage, he saves thecrew he destroyed helps the story, Michael
Bean, it's a fucking perfect rolefor him, and it's much better than
Sam Worthless ever would have done.You're forgetting fifty percent of this argument doesn't

(01:05:57):
matter. It's think ed Harris isthat much better than Sam Worthless that the
other side actually doesn't really matter.I will agree. Look, look,
look, look so I saw downIt is great work, absolutely great work
my limester and has a great chemistrywith that Harris much Actually, the chemistry
between those two and they're they're they'rebickering. What father a husband wife thing
is much more better grounded and betterand more realistic and more powerful. I
think than this, I'm going tofall in love with the Native story I've

(01:06:19):
heard a billion times. If Idon't need Pocahontas and space at that point,
I need good, solid of humanrelationships that work and that don't work,
and then they come together at theend. It's beautiful. You've been
bolling this up. Ah, youtwo go at it. I just I
just I needed some reasoning like thisis this, This was just a way

(01:06:43):
to preposterous before. But I'm notnot saying you're wrong, but I think,
I think, actually the characters area lot more similar than you would
first think because Jake and ny Thierythey kind of have like the big,
big space of venture love story,whereas Bud and Lindsay sort of have a
more grounded relationship. But as characters, I feel like they sort of cancel

(01:07:08):
each other out in like the mostpositive ways because the both adversarial relationships.
I mean, Bud and Lindsay definitelymore than Jake and Etiri in the second
one where I can start making distinctionsis the acting performances. To me,
this is Ed Harris's best performance I'veever seen. I think Hummel is by

(01:07:30):
far my favorite performance, but Ithink this is best one. Now.
So is Seldania I think delivers herbest performance as well. Albeit I know
it's more motion capture, but Ithink Seldania's performance is not saying better,
but I'm saying it's more nuanced thanEd Harris's. I think when we go

(01:07:54):
to Sam Worthington, that is wherethe actress Lindsay I can't pronounce her last
name, Muster, I'm just gonnacall her Lindsay. So Worthington and Lindsay
sort of also cancel each other up. Because I think Lindsay is a more
nuanced character than Jake is. Soit's it's again, it's like canceling it

(01:08:17):
out in both cases to me.Now, the final frontier where I finally
could decide which one is the betterduo is thank go wait, I gotta
get to my notes. Okay,yeah, the character character wise, which

(01:08:42):
is the better duo? So thisis where I think the Abyss takes the
cake because Ed Harris and the actresswho plays Lindsay, they're pretty much together
through the entirety of the movie.They are fighting two, you know,
against the sort of the threat that'sthere, but they're also fighting for their

(01:09:02):
marriage, and they're pretty much togetherto the entire movie. So like the
decisions they make together, the revivalmoment, the way they motivate to each
other, the way they have tosay goodbye to each other at different moments,
there is just way more sort ofearthiness they're unintended. So yeah,

(01:09:23):
this is this is the Abyss.Okay, all right, then we'll move
on to better music. Way ofWater versus the Abyss In music, I
think, obviously, considering I voteda zone voted for Way of Water,
this might be dser one. Ithought it was gonna be. I listened
to the Abyss soundtrack last night,and I'm amazed at how much I love
it, specifically because I'm a bigvocal guy, a big queen fan,

(01:09:46):
and they have a lot of thosechoir like vocals in the Abyss music.
And the moments when, first ofall, beyond the result resuscitation, at
that moment or at the end whenthe aliens start rising the ship up,
it's such a glorious, shining moment. And you're talking about it. If
you're gonna put up, You're gonnaput up, mister Franklin there again against

(01:10:10):
a living legend like Alvin Silvestri.I agree with that, Allan Silvestry in
that battle. I love the Abysscore. I listen to that NonStop.
I actually remembered it. I actuallyput it on my Spotify all the time.
I never even did that with theoriginal Avatar, which I liked even
I liked a little bit. Butto me, the Abyss, this is
an easy sweep for me for thebest. Maddie, you're the music guy.

(01:10:30):
What do you think about this one? Are you a muted You're muted
Maddie or something that I can't.I can't defend the Way a Waters score
against the Abysses. It's just itwould be disingenuous. And because there's that,
especially some of those moments where youget like the dark almost nine inch

(01:10:51):
nails kind of electronics, and that'smy ship right there. When it goes
like a little bit like nine inchNails but with some precaution and strings,
I'm like, fuck, yeah,give me that all day against the tribute
album of the Way of War screen, Yeah, fair enough. If if

(01:11:14):
it was James Horner an avatar,it would easily take it over the Abyss.
But you know my issues with theWay of Water, and also I
think like the Abyss altogether, Ifeel like is James Cameron's most underrated movie.
The score of the Abyss is onelike it's it's very underrated score.

(01:11:35):
It has what The Way of Waterdoesn't have, like a through line,
sort of a playful, mysterious wayto it. It's it gives me some
vibes of Spielberg and John Williams hereand there, like like what was the
alien the third Close Encounters of thethird time. M hmm, yeah,

(01:11:56):
there there are definitely like sort ofsimilarities to that one. Yeah you just
said that. So yeah, thisthis has to go to the ABYSS as
well. Okay, fair, fair, fair, all right, so we
are number three better effects. Youknow, this is a weird one,

(01:12:17):
right, This is a very strangeone. This is a very strange one
because it is again it's totally different. Mean, you're talking about in the
nineteen eighties versus today, eighty nine, right, eighty nine when it came
out, So they were working onlike seventy eighty seven eighty eight at this
point. And yet the ABYSS speakingis as almost as revolutionary to some degree

(01:12:41):
as Avatar was. Like the wholethat thing, that alien creature with the
water alien beginning was actually talked aboutfor a long time and it actually was
the starting point for for T two, which also became a legendary thing.
And oh, you don't mean thealien, you just mean how the sure
takes shape and stuff, because that'snot right, all right, But it

(01:13:02):
was the alien probe that was havingthat they were because they were pushing the
water through controptrolling everything else, andit had that kind of thing, and
it had it was so that wasrevolutionary for the nineteen eighties for sure.
I mean and this is a moviethe Abyss you can go back to it,
and you can't say this about alot of eighties movies. The effects
still hold up today. I watchedit recently. I don't see anything like

(01:13:25):
you can tell it's a little bitof an older movie, but it doesn't
seem like the effects aren't. Thething that you don't go cheesy effects of
the is thefact I could watch this, this movie could be made last year,
and I still think it's a similarago ten years ago probably okay,
maybe ten years ago. But ina way it does remind me also of
the fact that quite frankly, maybeI'm an older curmudgeon. I kind of

(01:13:48):
like Alan Smithy. I definitely actuallyprefer the more practical effects than the maybe
I am a boomer in that way, just like Star Wars lifts as well,
like the practical effects, like thethe it's amazing what you can do
with digital effects and what Cameron didwith Avatar and arbaitary of what I could

(01:14:10):
never like. That's a that's fuckingimpressive. It's all ow get out.
I still prefer kind of like therealness and the I feel like I can
hold on to the abyss. Ican't hold on to Avatar. I feel
like if I touch it, it'sgonna my hands are just gonna go through
it, exactly. So I thisalmost seems like a bit at this point,

(01:14:30):
but I'm truly gonna have to giveit to the Abyss in terms of
I feel like it's more of areal movie for me that way. If
I know, I get it,I get it. So Matta, you
can the one. This is notdunk for Avozov for me, I'm sorry.
I get that. I get theleg I get the legacy argument.
I get I get it. It'snice, it's cool. Thank you for

(01:14:54):
everything you did to get us tothe point that we're at now. But
we're at a different level now andmore strikingly beautiful to me is this especially
though maybe it's just because I lovethe A nice, beautiful, clear ocean
is one of the most beautiful sidesI could over sea to me, But

(01:15:15):
I I gotta give it to wearWater so you don't have to be sorry.
I come't understand that aspect of ifI might give the effects to the
avatars. It's a brilliant piece ofwork. I'm just I'm just treading Kevin
ground because of Alien Resurrection again.Fair point, fair point, all right,
Jarviy what about you? Yeah,this is this is a bit of

(01:15:38):
a category to talk about it.I'm I kind of want to give this
to the Abyss for the reasons thatyou said pod because of the practical effects,
because everything it did, because practicaleffects will always outlive visual CGI effects.
I feel like that's what Christopher Nolanhas been doing with these movies,

(01:15:59):
and they visually each of his moviecould have been made last year. Like
you said, nothing that he doeseffects wise, I feel like, really
ages and I mean it's all shotpractically right, they're they're on, they've
built these sets. The only CGI don't I don't actually think even the

(01:16:19):
the alien ship is CGI because theyare like they actually crafted like a miniature
of it that they're raised up,and so I would guess the title wave
is CGI. So but it's it'syou can't deny what Avatar did in post

(01:16:43):
production and with setting up the effects, the practical or visual I mean Avatar
the Way of Water still takes thecake because of so much work went into
it. It took way longer tomake these effects and it paid off.
So with a lot of Hollywood movieswhen when there's a lot of CGI,
when they don't look that great,it's the fact that they just don't have

(01:17:08):
enough time to give the animators enoughlike enough time to do it, and
they don't have enough money to finalizethe effects. This is just camera and
being I mean meticulously detailed with everything, but it's a lot closer. I
actually kind of wanted to give it, give it to the Abyss, but

(01:17:29):
the way The Way of Water transportsme to Pandora is yeah, nothing like
that. The Abyss can't do itlike absolutely, avatart absolutely their Okay,
we'll go into better villain men.Interesting enough, this is a cool one.
Now. Way of Water obviously havethe Hunter. I get that this,

(01:17:53):
but The Way of Water actually,to me, it would have been
harder for me to do it.It was the first Avatar versus uh the
Abyss, because I I like StephenLang, but I didn't like the Quarritch
as much. In the Way ofWater. I've already been on record saying
that as much, I don't likewhat they did with the character in that.
To me. I love Michael Bean. I've always loved Michael Bean.
I love the performances he gives.And I really like his character of Coffee

(01:18:15):
in this one, because this isnot your this is like you said,
Courts is still kind of a andthe Quartz and the Hunter both are still
kind of mustache twirling villains. Theystill kind of have that like we're gonna
be bad guys. You know,we're bad guys, and you're gonna find
you're gonna hate us, and theheroes are gonna But I think that Michael
Bean's character is so well layered.He's a marine grunt caught off from command.

(01:18:40):
He's a Navy seal, a Navyseal, sorry, Navy seal,
Yeah, sorry, the same.Yeah, he's a Navy seal caught off
from command, not actually used tocommanding per se as far as that goes.
And he's put in this position thatis insanely difficult to deal with,
and he's also getting the shakes he'sgetting he's going crazy to cabin feed for

(01:19:01):
and he has a chance to eitherdeclare war or War three. He has
to give that order World Wars.You can start WORLL three with a bunch
of Aliens or it's the Russians.And he crafts under pressure. So he's
such a relatable, not a relatablevillain, but he's just this villain that,
like you almost feel bad for him, you still want him to lose,
and you feel like, what anasshole you're being. Oh my god,

(01:19:24):
when like Lindsay comes up, it'slike you're bringing a fucking nuclear warhead
on board? What are you thinking? But because he's he's only doing what
he can, he's feeling so like, so out of his depth. That
makes for a more interesting villain tome, instead of the mustas total I
mean, the way Water has themustas throwing villain for simplicity, I get
it. I get that whole aspectof it. It tries to give Korrich

(01:19:45):
a better layer towards the end.But to me, Michael Beane's a very
unique villain. You don't get thatvillain nearly as much in films, and
so I far prefer seeing that kindof villain as a unique take then I
do seeing seeing Stephen Lang as MaxPorch. So I'm gonna give this one

(01:20:05):
unsurprisingly but to the best. Imean, I love the movie, guys,
but these are the reasons why Ilove it overall. I liked the
villains. I'm gonna remember Michael Beanmore than I remember Blue Stephen Coorch,
Blue Stephen Langcorch. I am.I want to give it to Michael Bean.
I really do. But there's thatone line that anytime I hear it,

(01:20:27):
it just makes me laugh. It'sso he's like, uh, He's
like sniff something, did you ratboy? I'm just like love that is,
like you just completely with me beinglike, oh yeah, it's like

(01:20:48):
this intense damn dar a davy sealand then you just call to him rat
boy. Okay, let me stepback for a secon and then just sit
in that. Okay. That wasvery much in the Action eighties. One
line up. I get it.But again, the visceral reaction I got

(01:21:10):
out of The Hunter and Avatar too. If we talk about that a villain
like I want to hate you,I want I want you to die at
the end of this movie. Ididn't really get as much from Michael Bean,
so I gotta give it Avatar.The thing with Michael Bean in the

(01:21:31):
Abyss is I don't even think he'sa villain. He just gets into a
very unfortunate situation. That is thepressure sickness that to talk about one person
every twenty can't handle it, theystart hallucinating, their slurred their speech,
they pretty much change as a person. So this is not what Coffee usually

(01:21:53):
is. He's an ABC, buthe's a hero. He's a good guy
who gets turned evil because of thesehallucinations. Go ahead, I mean energy.
I just want to inject that becauseEd Harris as General Francis General fran
is also not a villain as weknow. Yeah, a better villain who

(01:22:13):
is still in he was still inthe better everything else. I'm not holding
that against him overall, because Ithink that makes him a more interesting character
altogether, because he's he's he's nota muscle strolling hero a villain. He
just gets into a really fucked upsituation where he believes he's doing the right
thing. He thinks he's safe.He pretty much does what Denzel Washington and

(01:22:38):
Jesus Christ Crimson Tide, Gene Hackman, Geene Hackman. They both think they're
right, and they both are andthey're both wrong. Now with Quarrich,
now he is a villain who getsa more nuanced approach to him. He
sort of gets a little bit ofthese redem mean qualities that we talked about,

(01:23:02):
and he is this badass villain thatyou sort of still hate, but
you're seeing the change in him.M hmm. Matti also mentioned that I
mentioned as well the Tolkoon Hunter,who is I mean, he's just one
of the most evil. But butthe thing with he's I mean he does

(01:23:29):
more revolting things, but as avillain, he's not really like he's not
much of an adversary. So inthat sense, I am actually going with
the Abyss because I think coffee isa more interesting approach to a character,
to a villain, and I sortof I want him to be saved.

(01:23:49):
I want him to be brought ontop, like above water and sort of
that he gets to be the sameold hymn. I sort of I feel
for him. So when he getssort of killed, that's also another,
I mean great to sort of twistby James Cameron, because he's not an
evil guy. He just does evilthings great good when he does die.

(01:24:12):
You see him in the kit inthe capsule, he implode. He watched
his face and he can tell he'snot evil. He's just somebody taking over
his bodyway and Lindsay and Bud watchhim and they he almost feel the same
way. Lindsay hates him for whathe's doing. But I think she understands
more than anybody else. Is justkind of psychotic and everything else. So
this this hurts me very much.Everything in me wants to give it to

(01:24:36):
the Way of Water. But Ithink Michael Bean and the character Coffee is
is a more more interesting approach.All right, defending Avatar here, what
is going on? All right,let's move on, better premise, better
story. This one's in me also, this one's an easy one for me.

(01:24:59):
Again, I already said why Ilike the original Avatar story better than
Avatar two. I think Epatart twodefinitely try to do too much and also
repeated a lot of the first beats. When it either repeated a lot of
first beats, and then when itdidn't, it was taking it too far
in direction that got not confusing,but two layered. I think as far
as the story went over complicated,I love the abyssiness storyline more, especially

(01:25:19):
at the end when we figured outthe whole storyline is that we have an
alien race who is not from abovespace. We have an alien race who's
living below the water. That's justa unique and that's not something we do
we see ever, that already immediatelygoes, wow, that's that's cool,
and they're sitting up probes and inthe middle of the Cold War, you
get this whole like, okay,America versus Russia thing going on. Then

(01:25:42):
you introduce this whole another angle,and at the end of the day you
realize the aliens have been there forever, they are watching us, and they
decide that they're gonna give us alesson, and they're gonna give us a
chance to go. Listen, youguys are fucking up. We can fucking
wipe you out right now. Youbetter shape up your fucking way is And
to me, that premise, combiningwith the fact that you get the crew

(01:26:05):
is such like it's kind of likean Armour Gedtton crew. It's not like
a it's not a heroic crew byany nature. Man, it's it's a
every man, blue collar crew.What a great representation of the human race.
It's nobody special, it's just theseregular human workers. I mean,
yeah, they're smart, obviously,yeah, absolute way. So it's a

(01:26:28):
great alien movie. It's great partof Armour Gedtton. So to me,
the combination of those different factors Ithink for a very interesting and not overdone
story, and Avatar's weakest points,obviously to me are the stories. Comparatively
speaking, I gotta give this thebusiness up a much more interesting storyline to
me than what Avatar is after justgiving me a whole lot of originality to

(01:26:48):
it, which it's not necessarily tocan have an unoriginal movie, be a
fun and be a good movie towatch. Hell, Star Wars is hidden
fortress to a degree. I meanI get that, No, it is,
it is. It is fortant,and I love Star Wars, so
it's not a totally thing. Butwhen you give me something that's original,
a new and some interesting twist toit, like having a villain who's not

(01:27:10):
a villain per se, having notrue average like, it's kind of a
kind of a cool storyline to gowith. So this one's got to be
ther best for me. I thinkI'm gonna have to agree, because if
you no no long enough, I'vehad the conversation multiple times. We are
spending too much time looking up andnot enough time looking below. You've seen

(01:27:33):
the bag, you've seen the way, you've seen Cloverfield, like, we
have no idea what's underneath that.But one hundred two hundred years from now,
when we're gone. The human raceis going to be looking for another
place to go and populate. Weare a fucking cancer that way, We

(01:27:54):
are destroying the planet. But thereis an in the Abysses, an alien
race. They've been here longer thanus. Yeah, we want to We're
gonna nuke them to Kingdom come becausethey're a threat to our life. That
that is such a real life thing. It's just like, Okay, you're
a threat to us, We're goingto bomb the hell out of you.

(01:28:15):
And yeah, that's that's just well, we know there could be an ancient
civilization living down there over we're notwatching us now at this point. All
right, cool, jarvit to you. I think the moment when they actually
want to bomb the aliens in theabyss is again Coffee doesn't really he doesn't

(01:28:42):
even know that they're aliens, likehe just he still thinks that the Russians.
But that doesn't take away from thepoint that Mattie said, that sort
of humanity is so blinded by attackingfirst strike first, you need to destroy
your perceived enemy, that it justblinds them completely. So the way to
a which is category, I think, is to strip away all the fluff

(01:29:03):
that that's mostly Avatar Avatar side andjust talk about the story kind of like
an elevator pitch, And there's likeno way that the Abyss is not going
to take this category. This isa complete, tight compact great story if
you can, you can tell theAvatar the Way of Waters story in a

(01:29:25):
horrific way, and it's be atotally terrible movie if James Cameron wasn't helming
it and just someone fucks up thestory and the characters. But the Abyss,
even if it's a bad movie,it's gonna be cool storyline. I
feel like it's sort of like EventHorizon in a way is kind of an
interesting comparison that it's it's not thegreatest movie per se, but it's kind

(01:29:48):
of really fucked up and awesome theway the story is told. Horizon Anything
on Air, by the way,we haven't I love that movie. It's
a weird one. I can saythat's one of Kim's favorite horror Kim is
like horror movies became love The Horizon. The Event Horizon was sphear or something
like that, maybe might be agood one to do at some point.

(01:30:08):
I haven't seen Fear Sphere sphere.Oh, I love that. That's kind
of a similar I just sorry thrownout there. So I'm sorry Garvice.
You're you're giving it to the abyssas well. Then yes, the premise,
I mean it's totally so we havereached the sixth category then, and
that's better. Fist pump moments,well, I know, I gotta,

(01:30:33):
I just I just have one thingwritten down, only one thing written down.
One of the greatest fist pumps knownto man. This sequence is the
reason why I absolutely the resurrections,he said for the audio listeners, The
resuscitation sequence is my favorite sequence byfar made me fall in love with that.
Harris is acting. That's what Iwas like. I watched him like,
wow, that is an awesome,awesomely acted scene. Here is a

(01:30:55):
Joe Schmo guy uh face with theend of losing his wife who we actually
obviously doesn't even necessarily like per sebut loves it away and holy shit,
does he like go off on herand like when he starts slapping, like
you never factory ring in your life. Now fight, bet you fight,
and you're like, holy shit,this is fucking acting right now in a
great James Cameron movie and giving up, not giving up as no, no,

(01:31:17):
there's no give up. There's nogiving up in him. And that's
not even the only fist pump.There's a couple of great at Harris fist
pumps in there too, and oneI want to bring up because no one
ever thinks about it, but it'sone of my favorite. There's two actually
going to bring up. And actuallyI love the relationship between Budd and Lindsay.
Love it so much. This actuallymakes me laugh the entire time and
smurk at the same time. There'sthis one sequence where Bud gets so fucking

(01:31:38):
pissed, runs into the fucking bathroom, takes his wedding ring off, throws
at the toilet, sis there fora second, the toilet gets the big
blue head. He actually comes annobby ver. It's like get a blue
hair, gets a blue head andgets it back. And what happens later
on the movie the door right onthe ring and it saves him. That

(01:32:00):
and the other relationship fist bumb momentin that is they're in together in the
room together, Uh, Bud issleeping and Lindsay's there and Bud starts snoring
and Lindsay like even though there's beensevere but just rolls over like nothing is
every It was just a great relationshipmoment. It's a small fists bump moment,

(01:32:21):
but it's just kind of fun aswell. And the final one I
want to mention for the best,the one we already mentioned our avatar ones.
The moment where so Bud and Catfishthe big Guy have to swim underneath
the ocean to get to where MichaelBeane's character is locked in the thing and
Catfish can't make the second swim,so Ed Harris comes and Harris has his
confrontation. Of course Eddie time heEd Harris Michael Bean's an awesome moment see

(01:32:45):
the Rock, but this time EdHarris is a Joe Schmoe while this guy's
a Navy seal. So Michael Beangets the drop it I'm pretty easily,
even though Ed Harrison is a prettygood job of fighting back, but there's
that great moment where he's about toget killed and also is here hey in
her on there's Catfish. Finally theymade way coffee out like the eighties that

(01:33:05):
you get you don't get like that. That's a great three D moment right
there. I've seeing that in threeds. What what what did? What?
Did Ben and Drew call it lastnight? Old white guy fighting,
old white guy punching? Oh whiteguy, there is great at it?
Yeah, absolutely, it was acatfish was doing a good old Harris before

(01:33:26):
punched there knock Michael being on hisass. So I have many more restpunds,
but those the ones I'll talk withas well. I mean, I've
only really got one. We talkedabout one with the part exploiting Michael being
death like employed and like just beingcrushed by that amount of water is fucking
terrifying. But the moment where Buddand lindsay they're like arguing and they're yelling

(01:33:48):
at each other, and she's like, let's just think logically. Let's think
glogically. A budget fuck logic.I was like, yeah, is that
before they were going underwater or her? Yeah? Yeah. The rooms like
filling off the the hero, thehero has no idea. I love that

(01:34:09):
your hero is not the intelligent whennot one is figuring. He's like,
you're smarter than me. You figuredthis out, and let's logically, and
he's just like, no, furight, And when it starts happening,
it starts filling up. She goesno, no, I can't do this.
She starts panicking. She wants outof that situation, even though she
knows there is no other way.It's such a human moment right there.

(01:34:30):
It is so beautiful, such abeautiful moment. Yeah, you know what,
I hate to do, what Ihave to throw in one more than
I The moment where Ed Harris goesdown in the into the abyss and uh,
She's like, oh my god,the games can be wrong. Comes
swimming backs from back from back,and he does. He's like, you
know, I need is one wayticket, he said. He meets the

(01:34:51):
aliens and all of a sudd they'reall out there thinking he's dead, and
all of a sudden he types andshe's like wait, hey hey, He's
like that's impossible. No, it'snot. Back on the air. It's
so great. The entire sequence whenhe's going down, like the way they're

(01:35:11):
interacting, the way he starts justlosing these words. Everyone thinks he's gone,
and then he's like, feel better. He comes bagged, talk to
him like, well, talk tohim. Okay, so good, And
that was actually something that we couldhave talked about in the special effects,
but it's kind of a weird thingto talk about. And in special effects,

(01:35:34):
it's it's the fluid that is breathing, the fluid that actually contains option
and that lets him breathe underwater.So I googled it. Apparently there is
a liquid that can be consumed tobreathe. Yeah, I need to know
more about this thing. They didn'tuse it that Harrison was drowned. He

(01:35:56):
actually punched James Cameron out after this? Did that really happen? Did Hars
got pissed ed, Harris got pissedand punch Cameron out And he absolutely did.
And at one point he I mean, of course he refuse to do
press for the movie because I guessthe whole cast was pissed. Like Mary
little Bit's master Toner said it wasthe hardest film to make, and it
was like, fuck this ship.You're killing us at this point. But

(01:36:17):
hashould say, you know, Ihave nothing against Jim. I called him
up later on. We worked whenwe hashed it out. He's a great
filmmaker. I'd worked again at somepoint blah blah, But yeah, he
did knock him on his ass,and you know what, sometimes the junior
direct means again, knocked on hisass every once in a while it comes
to the human part of the film. So what you obviously didn't do that
to know the next movie. Wegotta we gotta give some credit here where

(01:36:42):
credit is due to the Way ofWater. I mean, we're all going
with the Abyss in the fist pumpcategory. I'm with you, guys,
but I feel like the Abyss hasthat one scene that just overtakes every other
scene in the Way of Water whenit comes to a fist pump. But
there's, like we talked about,the moments that are in in the Way

(01:37:05):
of Water, they are I mean, they're more complet as an action movie
visual moment altogether. But what theAbyss does so well is it's such a
simple human moment where you don't needthese effects. It's just the master class
of acting with a great conclusion thatthat's just why it takes it real quick,

(01:37:30):
all, Sir EDM. Trap PeldFor the theatrical director's cut, oh,
there's only the director's cut. Director'scut is by far better pretty muchnestly
speaking, I love that. I'mglad that they're going to release it finally
on Blu Ray and everything they're workingtowards now they're actually going to happen right
now. It's like not an availablestreaming, so we'll get the whole thing
back. I'll build to watch it. And I've been watching it on DVD
for cristsakes, so like giving ita Chris Clean transfer and everything else,

(01:37:54):
and I can't wait. So Iwatch this movie. Well, all right,
guys, we have a final afinal score here, and at Harris
is happy. Harris at Harris ishappy. He came in winner and a
new champion by a score of fifteento three. Fifteen to three. It

(01:38:15):
is the Abyss, so ultimate watermovie. This is the best example of
how the categories decided, because inno way in the world is The Abyss
actually a better movie than the Wayof Water, but the categories elevated higher.
Interesting point, I'm glad that's actuallyI won. Is the Abyss one?

(01:38:39):
But I think this is a bettermovie. But I was. I
could have gone like you give everythingto the Abyss, be like that,
but I didn't. I was objective. Well hey no, but let's be
honest. I was objective. Ithought about the only one I wouldn't have
been. I would have hardly beenobjective. Aout would have been better hero
because about Harris. Absolutely I'll givethat credit. But even so, I
think I won. But everything elselook at if you look at the categories

(01:38:59):
again music. I was objective aboutthat. I even gave the Way of
Water the wind. But I'm talkingmore about myself. Okay, I could
have. I could have, butI was I didn't want you to apply
that. I wasn't. I thinkI defended it more than Jelvi did.
I was being objective. I thinkeven though I did give it to the
Abyss, I did, I amyou gave one more? Yeah, so
so yeah, there it is,fifteen to three. There we go,
try bro. I'm sorry, Itried it all right, folks. There

(01:39:23):
it is. There we go theAbyss winds over Avatar Way of Water,
which had one over Avatar two thousandand nine. But that's it for this
week's show. We are running alongobviously with the double duty action. We
will be back next week at leastdefinitely these two will be back. Hopefully.
I'm on call, so it dependson if I get called in or
not. If I get called in, it'll be just these two. Uh.

(01:39:44):
If not, then I will bejoining you guys to do the best
Christmas movie of all time. Itis going to be die Hard versus Leath
the Weapon. Yeah, I amso happy. I can't believe we're doing
die Hard. I'm very excited aboutthat myself. I really hope i'll get
called in because that's gonna be afun, fun, fun battle to have
to I'm glad to get to watchit again first of all. But you

(01:40:06):
know what, I'm not a goodhost. I always forget to do this
in the beginning of the of theepisode. If you are here for the
first time, hit that clip,hit that like, hit that subscribe,
let us know you're here, leavecomments for us, because that's where we
grow the channel out. We've donedoing some great work there and I really
appreciate that. Of course. Alsoif you want to join the Patreon,
patreon dot com slash pod products.We have a great crew, a great

(01:40:27):
chat, a great chat. Rightnow that's going on. I have a
lot of fights going down in there, but they're all fun fights. In
the most part of that. Ihaven't even looked in the chat right because
I know today's going to be someopinions. It's packed, It's always packed.
I don't want to throw in.I gotta shout out specific patrons at
a level of Danielle Ramirez Alison's seremony, Brandon buckingham Als ceremony up to the
producer's level. So thank you verymuch, Brandon Buckingham, Brandy Parker,

(01:40:49):
Jeff Alterman, Johnastrina, Kelly wand part of Jessa Dayson and the rest.
I could not do this without you. I appreciate you guys oh so
much. You really help me keepthe lights on. I gotta tell you
that. Also real quick to throwquick in there, do you have a
couple of shows? They have twomedia for wait to use on film.
We'll return tomorrow. PJ and Idoing talking about the Final Destination, the

(01:41:11):
fourth film in the Final Destination series. I'm gonna say it's not a happy
episode. It is only it's actuallyall gonna be our shortest episode because I'll
give you old spoiler. There's onlyso many ways we can say this movie
is a piece of shit. Differently, we're not very big fans of this
movie, so but now it iswhat it is. We have some fun,
that's all I gotta say. Infact, we do talk about Avatar

(01:41:32):
Wave of Water for the first liketwenty minutes. I think too, so
there goes on that as well,so there you can listen to that also.
Of course Crown Jewels. This weekwe're doing the Billy of the Valley
from the Stretcart Attack album. Theylisten to that as well. And of
course we are on Spotify, Appleor if you find your product or your
podcast at pod projects. Was achance I might be splitting them off into
three separate or four separate podcast seasonsat all on one. I have made

(01:41:55):
that decision completely yet, because inJanuary, Maddie Gunner and I are going
to be starting up a Star Warspodcast. That's right, Star Wars podcast,
the Holy Snows and Sugar thinking back, so don't have that one graphic
gear, so I'm gonna go overto this one Holy Snokes a Star Wars
podcast that's gonna be us. We'regonna start with The Bad Bad Season two
and we will go from there aswell. I think that's it. Anybody

(01:42:19):
Maddie work on the folks find you. You find me on Twitter at Matti
Gunner, Instagram Maddy Underscore Gunnite.You can find my band Mourna on all
streaming platforms and on social media atMorner dot at Mourner band Ormurner dot Co.
You can find me here every Tuesdaygoing forward with these two gentlemen for
class Action and now with Holy Snokes, which I'm very excited to do.

(01:42:41):
I can't wait to start talking StarWars again. I can't wait. They're
my friends. Richard works with folks. Find Joe Facebook and Instagram at Richard
Eric with a Kijarvi and here,okay, find me at puns go to
New Zea on Twitter. You canfind us also appod products on Twitter,
and class Action on Instagram, andHoly Stoks Instagram as well. Yeah,
only Snokes Pod and also you canfind me We're on the space. I

(01:43:05):
still work sporadically with the Action guys. They are bringing action with your anatomy
back sporadic basis. I have beenprom I've been guaranteed the spot on the
Rock episode uhtively uh of course.And beyond that, you'll still find me
helping ou Christian Harlot with his Patreonand you checked that out, said Counsel.
The day he had an interview withDiego Luna, which was a very

(01:43:25):
very cool thing to get. Ihaven't yet, Yeah, an interview with
Luna. It's pretty cool, butbeyond that, that's it, guys.
Also, you will see you nexttime justice, Merry Christmas. Indeed,
until next time, goodbye everybody,Yes, there you go. One mons
time for that and now good

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Bobby Bones Show

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Avatar (2009) vs Avatar_ The Way of Water (2022) vs...

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

The Bobby Bones Show

All Episodes

Avatar (2009) vs Avatar_ The Way of Water (2022) vs...

Stuff You Should Know