Part I: Review of The Causality of Serial Killers' Crime in Early Childhood Journal Article

This podcast covers a conference presentation of a journal article by Mariam Vardan Karapethyan focused on the early childhood experiences of serial killers and their ability to process abuse with adaptive stress or psychologica trauma.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hey, composition of the killer fans Doctor Cassidy. Here today
we're going to be talking about the causality of serial
killer's crime in early childhood. If you recall from my
last podcast, we were talking about this particular article by

(00:31):
Mariam Correptian from year Van State University, which was in Germany.
But it's a really good article and it's talking about
the things that you know, we tend that's what we're
looking for when we're doing our research here for this podcast,

(00:53):
as always before we start this podcast, and the things
that we discussed are not meant to be clinical diagnosis,
but certainly they're important. So the things that we talk about,
the things that we discuss are factual and it comes

(01:14):
from you know, journal articles like this, peer review journal articles,
information that's released to the press, but verified those type
of things. But it's certainly not a diagnosis. Now, this
sectually was presented in the International Conference on Social Science,

(01:35):
Humanities and Education in Berlin, Germany in twenty twenty, so
it is a few years old, but not too old.
You know, when you're looking at journal articles, you typically
don't want to go past seven years, so this one
is right around four years and it still has really

(01:55):
good information. It's still very timely, so that's one reason
that I wanted to So she goes over a little
bit of information that, of course we know just in review.
But this is the abstract. Although the term serial killer
was first introduced in the nineteen seventies, it originated from

(02:17):
Federal Bureau Special agent Robert Wrestler in describing New York cases.
Serial killers have been investigated since the nineteen since excuse me,
since the fourteen hundreds, when the French nobleman Gillis de
Race tortured, sexually, abused, and killed hundreds of children. There
are many factors that are important to be analyzed in

(02:37):
order to catch the serial killer. The most important methods
are psychological profiling, victimology, signature, modus operandi, and the most important,
according to this author, is to have a psychological portrait

(02:58):
of the killer. We see that a lot. There's TV
shows that are profiling the killers or the violent offenders,
and that's what she's talking about here. She thinks that's
perhaps one of the most important things. It is important.
I think that we've learned a lot in these hundreds

(03:23):
of years of studying serial killers and violent offenders. But
I think that in the last I'm gonna say, the
last seventy years, we've probably made more gains with understanding
the neurology and the psychopathology of serial killers. When we

(03:47):
hear the term serial killer, we think that it is
spoken about a supernatural one who has a strange, distinguishing look.
That's true. We sometimes think that a serial killer is
this ugly monster that rears its head, you know. But
nevertheless the reality is that serial killers are usually a
man who can be your new acquaintance, neighbor, friend, even

(04:11):
a family member. They can be very friendly people who
will ask to do a favor for them. Instead of
thanking you, they'll cue you with cruelty. However, the researchers
show that the majority of serial killers themselves were the
victims of violence in their childhood, which means that violence
gives birth to violence. Not all serial killers, however, have

(04:33):
had childhood trauma or been subjected to violence at an
early age. But the fact that serial killers have been
subjected to violence at an early age is not a coincidence. Absolutely,
it's not. This is also an interesting read because it
has been translated from German, so some of the words

(04:53):
are quite different or you know, the syntax isn't quite right,
but I'm trying to correct that as I read. All right,
So she says at different stages of life, we face
different situations that can have a profound effect on our behavior,
disrupt the emotional field and interpersonal relationships. The responses to

(05:17):
these events adaptive stress or psychological trauma depends on the
personality of the person. And I think this is something
that we've talked about in the past, but not a
lot of adaptive stress or psychological trauma. Usually what happens,
you know, when we're children and we have something happen

(05:39):
that could be considered a trauma or a traumatic event,
we either deal with it very well, which is adaptive stress,
or we deal with it as a psychological trauma. And
part in my opinion, this is my opinion, I believe

(06:03):
that it depends on your coping skills, the skills, the
foundational skills that you've gotten up until the point of
this trauma. Some children are more emotionally mature than others.
We definitely have children who I mean, I've said it

(06:26):
about children for thirty years. They just seem like little
adults because they can deal with things so It is
most often type those children who can take a traumatic
event and they process that as adaptive stress. It's the

(06:46):
ones who take those events and it becomes a psychological
trauma that we see lots of behavioral issues, lots of
social emotional issues, and hoping skills are completely just completely

(07:07):
different from the child who has a more mature social
emotional background. Sometimes deep traumatic childhood shapes let me start over.
Sometimes a deep traumatic childhood shapes an individual. The term

(07:28):
psychological trauma first appeared in the nineteenth century. The Diagnostic
and Statistical Manual of Mental Problems defines trauma as the
direct personal experience of an event that involves actual or
threatened death or serious injury, threat to one's physical integrity,
witnessing an event that involves the above experiences, learning about

(07:52):
unexpected or or an injured experience by a family member
or close associate. We can see that very realistically when
you look at people like Carrie what was his last name, Carrie,

(08:24):
It seems to he gosh, it just left me. He
was the serial killer in one of the national state
parks and he ended up killing a woman and two girls.

(08:47):
Then he killed another one of the park workers. I'll
find it in a minute. But his brother, his brother
was kidnapped when he was a little boy, and he

(09:13):
said that it completely changed his family and Stainer, Carrie Stainer,
Steven Stainer was his brother who was kidnapped in oh
about fifty years ago. And Carrie, I mean, they had

(09:33):
a fairly normal childhood, but because of all the publicity
and all the issues that they had, Carrie ended up
living with his uncle, who sexually abused him. So he
had two very distinct types of trauma during his lifetime,
and he was never able to really have a relationship

(09:55):
with women. He did have a girlfriend girlfriend at the
time when he started killing and she had two young
daughters and he had actually planned on killing them. He
had written about them in his diary. But he just
really had a really a hard time connecting with people.

(10:15):
And that stems from number one, the trauma of his
brother being kidnapped, all of the media attention that came
with that, as well as he was you know, when
the brother finally escaped and came back home, that was
a whole another traumatic experience. Yes, glad to see his brother,

(10:38):
but very much traumatized by everything that happened during and
after that so you know, he is a good example
of either adaptive stress or psychological trauma, and certainly his
was psychological trauma for him. Children are subjected to emotional, psychological,

(11:09):
sexual and physical abuse. Physical abuse as well as neglect.
Neglect occurs when the parent does not provide the child
with a necessary care, such as dirty clothes, dirty hair,
lack of necessary education, clothing, food, medical intervention. There are
times when it's difficult to distinguish whether neglect has occurred
or social conditions are not sufficient to provide the child

(11:33):
with a necessary care. In other words, if we lived
in a society where we didn't have food stamps, government assistants,
all of these type of things. Now, do I think
it's enough, No, I don't. I don't think it's enough,
but I do think I do think it does help

(11:54):
many of our children. Just on the edge of being
not being neglected, that's a big that's a big distinction.
You know, It's important to understand that because someone doesn't
live at the same standards that you and I live,

(12:17):
it doesn't mean that they're neglected all the time. It
does mean that they have a different circumstance. It means
that they have perhaps less money, less resources, less education.
You know, all of those things are very relevant and

(12:38):
it you know, I'm a developmental therapist for the state
and I go into homes all the time, and certainly
it's been a lesson for me. Just because a family
doesn't have the material things that other people have, it
does not mean the child is neglected. Doesn't mean they

(12:59):
need Maybe you need assistance with things, certainly it does.
I mean, you can be a millionaire or a billionaire
and still need help. But I certainly think that we
need to look as a society. We have to make
sure that we understand that just because someone isn't living
at the same level that you are, does not mean
that it's a bad thing. It's just different. And I

(13:24):
see that quite often. I see that every day when
I do home visits. So in families where neglectors use
parents themselves encourage children to find themselves in an environment
where they may be subjected to other forms of violence.
Physical abuse is the force used to intentionally harmitize. Examples

(13:46):
of physical abuse include shaking, throwing, slapping, burning skin, poisoning,
making run or do other physical exercises forbidding sleep, eating, medication, drowning,
or hanging, it can be a plethora of other things.
Emotional and psychological abuse may not be visible, but it
has a profound effect. It occurs when someone intentionally damages

(14:10):
the child's self esteem and causes him to feel unloved, worthless,
or inappropriate. Emotional and psychological abuse can be both verbal
and nonverbal, accompanied by physical activity. A vivid example is
convincing a child that he is bad a result of misunderstanding, screaming, silencing, threatening, ridiculing,

(14:30):
restricted physical contact, and loving words. Sexual abuse is the
involvement of a child in sexual activity, and it is
not mandatory for them to be touched during that time.
That's also something that many people don't understand. Even if
the child's not touched, they can be sexually abused not
only actions, but also eighteen year all. What she's trying

(14:56):
to say is jokes that are for an audience of
eighteen year olds or older. Jokes or stories, watching adult
movies or movies that are not appropriate for young children,
encouraging sexual relations are all examples of sexual abuse. Children

(15:16):
who are victims of violence at an early age tend
to be subjected to violence themselves, which means that violence
gives birth to violence, and she said that in the
abstract as well. Not all serial killers, however, have had
child trauma or been subjected to violence at an early age.
But the fact that serial killers have been subjected to

(15:37):
violence at an early age is not a coincidence. I
completely agree with that. It's certainly something that is subjective. Okay.
So she talks about different methods of detaining serial killers.

(16:00):
Although the term serial killer was first introduced in the
seventies by the Federal Bureau of Special Agent Robert Wrestler,
and they've been investigated since the fourteen hundreds, we've learned many,
many things about them over the years that kind of
changes some of these ideas that we once had. It's

(16:22):
just like anything else, really, it's just like the medical field.
You know, this treatment works really well for this ailment
until they find something that works better. Kind of the
same thing. The more information that we have where we
educate ourselves, the more we get to the point where
we are understanding the psyche of these people more. And

(16:45):
I think that that's really been an important thing. Just
that's my dog Tilly in the background. I think that's
the thing here. This huge surge of true crime stories
and investigative reports. We are learning more and more and

(17:09):
it helps us hopefully to prevent these things in the
future or to provide enough support as children when they
go through these traumatic experiences to where it turns into
you know, that psychological stress, but not trauma. We also

(17:35):
know that Morton and Hills define serial killer as a
person who kills two or more people at different times.
There's that cooling off period. If you go in and
you shoot twenty people at one time, that's a mass shooting,
but two or more people at different times is considered

(17:56):
serial killing. But unlike serial killers, mass murders commit murders
through revenge, hatred, or green Typically those are typically the
emotions that are attached with that action. Serial killers have
other motives for murder, and their revelations often help reveal
their identities. There are various methods used to detect serial killers,

(18:17):
one of which is to classify serial killers according to
their motives for murder. But it should also be taken
into account that finding motives for murder in this case
is quite difficult, as there may be several motives as well,
as there are some serial killers who killed just because
they want to. For example, for example, Samuel Little, he

(18:40):
is considered the most prolific serial killer in the United States.
And he said, I killed because I wanted to. He
also said, if God opposed killing, he would have stopped me.
But that's that sick mind. He was to watch videos
of Samuel Little. He had almost a photographic memory of

(19:01):
all of his victims. That he had hundreds, hundreds of
victims and maybe more that were never identified, but he
would draw pictures of them, or you could show him
pictures of missing people and he would say, oh, that's
so and so, and I met her at this bridge

(19:23):
blah blah blah blah blah. I mean he was and
at first, you know, they kind of thought he was
just full of it, because we do have there are
some serial killers who like the attention and they'll just
keep they'll just keep going on, Oh, yes, I've killed
this many people. Yes I've done this, and I've done

(19:43):
that to keep the attention on themselves. But in this
particular case, it was proven all of those killings that
he did them, the ones that he was convicted for
and then later admitted to in all kinds of different
interviews that he did. He worked closely with the who

(20:08):
are the Federal Bureau of Prisons, and he acknowledged murders
whose bodies had not yet been discovered. Still, images of
an unidentified victims taken by Samuel are now on the
Federal Bureau's website. There are many different topological classifications, but
the most prominent are those of homes and de Burgher,
and those are five different types. The first is the visionary.

(20:33):
This type includes the killers who hear voices that order
them to kill. An example of that would be Stanley Mosburg.
He killed three people, and he considered himself a prophet
of God. He said, I love to kill. I kill
because God needs them in the struggle of the angels
and the devils. God chooses my victims himself. Mosburg was

(20:56):
able to be detected because he had left one of
the victims alive, saying, I will not kill you because
God has commanded me not to touch you. He was
planning to kill eleven more people. Considering the fact that
Jesus' apostles are twelve, it is likely that he would
he would commit suicide in the end. Nevertheless, it is

(21:16):
also noteworthy that among the victims there was a woman,
and there was no woman among the apostles, okay, and
then there's mission oriented types. Killers of this type believe
that they are killing the evil that is happening in society.
Their target groups are mostly prostitutes, women from the lower classes,

(21:37):
and racial killers, and Gary Ridgway is a phenomenal example
of this. He claims seventy one murders, but they proved
forty nine. He gave the trust of prostitutes by showing
them the photo of his son, and then when he
was arrested he passed a polygraph examination. His murders diminished

(21:57):
when he married his third wife, who thought that marrying
him had saved many lives. Bridgeway's hatred of women had
begun following sexually transmitted infections. He often complained about their presence,
but he regularly used their service. According to Terry McCarthy,
he could not distinguish between his religious whims and religious beliefs,

(22:18):
and he was often crying while reading the Bible or
listening to passages. Harry Ridgeway was also very abused by
his mother, and he related a lot of his killings
to imagining that it was his mother and he would
defile them and just horrifically treat them even after death,

(22:48):
and he was a necrophiliac, he would go back and
have sex with them after they were dead. So mess
He was definitely definitely messed up. Then there's the hedonistic types.
Killers of this type are killing just for fun. For example,
like Jeffrey Dahmer, he had seventeen male victims. He promised

(23:11):
his victims money, invited him home, drank with him, and
then killed. After the murder, he had sexual relations with
his victims, took their body parts as a souvenir, photographed them,
then looking back at the photos was relieving the pleasure
of the murder. I think that's a very simplistic definition

(23:33):
of Dahmer. I think that he definitely had an issue
with being gay and certainly was not the popular thing
to be back in the day. But he was scared

(23:57):
of being alone, and he repeated that in many of
his interviews where he would have a relationship with someone
or they would just come to his house and hang
out and watch TV, drink, and then when they got
ready to leave, he would panic because he did not
want them to leave and ended up killing them because

(24:18):
then he could permanently keep them with him. That was
his mindset. So and in all honesty, he did not
have a horrible childhood. Now, his mother was abusive, was
verbally abusive. She was an alcoholic too, but his father eventually,

(24:40):
you know, they divorced, and his father was the one
who primarily raised him. And you watch his interviews. I mean,
he really was seemingly a very kind man who wanted
to raise his son. He knew he was different, but
he really felt like when he went into the military

(25:01):
he was on the straight and narrow, but of course
that wasn't the case. He's really for me, he's an anomaly.
I think Dahmer is one of those for me who
I will always feel like he did have some level
of empathy. And I've said that one hundred times. I
still think it's true. I think that, unlike most serial killers,

(25:25):
he had some level of empathy because he regretted much
of what he did. Didn't make him stop doing it,
that's the sick part, right, but it certainly did make him,
you know, he regretted what he did, if not immediately,
certainly later in life. Then there's the control tops. People

(25:49):
of the control top control victims through murder, and Ted
Bundy is a good example of that. He targeted women
and girls, met them pretending to be an organist or
a disabled person or someone who had just had surgery,
and he would take them to a secluded place, have

(26:12):
sex with them, and then kill them. He would rape them,
the White says, have sex with them. It was not voluntary.
But he was also one of those that was begin
to necrophilia, and he would often take the bodies out
of the graves that he had put them in and
continue to have sexual relations with him until they were discovered.

(26:40):
Bundy was It's really strange. He would wash the victim's
hair with shampoo, and he was angry every time when
when a girl cut their hair something somebody that he
was watching, he would really upset him. He received the
lawyers and a psychologist's education which helped him deal with
the killing. He was extremely pervasive, persuasive, and cautious, and

(27:04):
even when his beloved girl phoned the police to report
that the serial killer was Bundy, she was not believed.
And that's that's the thing about Bundy. You would never
put him in this category, as she noted in her abstract,

(27:25):
we typically think of a serial killer as being someone's
scary and an ugly beast. Of a person who would
scare us to death. He saw them and that was
simply the very opposite of Bundy, right. I mean, he
was charming, he was handsome from outside looking in. He
was very successful, he was a law student. He just

(27:50):
did not fit any of the ideas that we have
of serial killers. And that's really one of the things
that made him, I hate to say it this way,
that made him so popular. You know, he became almost
like a star because of it. But we did learn

(28:11):
a lot from him. The thing about Bundy was he
was smart enough to know that he could live, He
could extend his life the more information he could hold
back and give a little at a time, and that's
what he did. And then there are predator types. It's
typical for people of this type to have fun hunting

(28:34):
for people. For example, Irah Rensi, she had about thirty
five victims, and she targeted men who could be either
her husband or lovers. Kiara had long been in love
with her victims, so she would she would had this
sick idea that she loved these men, and yet as

(29:00):
soon as she felt like they weren't spending enough time
with her or they betrayed her. In some way she
would kill them. She even gave birth to a child
in the hope of being able to make her husband
spend more time with her, but nothing really succeeded, and
she decided to poison him. She chose her husband's favorite drink,
planned a beautiful evening with him, and poured arsenic into

(29:20):
the cup. For about a year, she assured everyone that
her husband had left her, and then declared that he
had been the victim of the car accident. Doing the
same with her second husband, she decided not to marry
anymore and become a lover who just ends up leaving.
Beer was detected only when one wife of her lovers
had followed her husband and saw that he was not leaving.

(29:41):
Police found thirty zinc coffins in Bear's basements. She hadn't
let them go away by the murder. Oh, another one
of those sentences that dismissed up. She hadn't not let
them go away by murder. Bear used to sit on
the armchair in the cellar and look the coffins for
a long time, each of which had one victim in each.

(30:06):
Crazy so profiling is the reverse engineering of a crime,
or a series of crimes. We look at the behavior exhibited,
and we work backwards to the type of person and
the type of personality who committed that crime. Because every
offender picks a particular victim at a particular time, at
a particular place, in a particular manner, for a particular purpose.

(30:31):
Those choices that he makes reveals things and wittingly about himself.
What he desires, what his capabilities are, what his skill
levels are, and what his education is, what his physical
ability may be, etc. All those things reveal the kind
of person that he is, and he used that information
to direct the investigation. The profiler produces a report for

(30:54):
local investigators that predicts the possible personality, physical, and social
characteristics of the unknown offender. The psychological profile includes the internal,
psychological and behavioral characteristics. It can be a tool in
the search for a murderer when the location of the
murder and the condition of victim indicates some deviation. The

(31:16):
profile can vary in link from a few paragraphs to
a number of pages, depending on how much information the
investigation had to analyze at the input step. So it
is an entirely somewhat new career that you can go into.
You can be a profiler and you study all of

(31:39):
these psychological characteristics, all of these all of these things
that they collected from serial killers over the years and
violent offenders, and that's what you're studying. And they are
really scarily accurate. It's very rare that they are are

(32:00):
wrong in their in their profile. The next of the
methods to detect serial killers that we're studying is victimology.
Victimology is the peculiarity of victims selection. Often similarities can
be found between victims when investigating a murder, which can

(32:21):
help identify the killer. And they include the victim's age, sex, race, occupation, appearance,
marital status, and vulnerability. Just like Ted Bundy who did
young girls and women or I can't think of his

(32:47):
name now, I just we just talked about and who
killed only men, right Jeffrey Dahmer, good lord, Yeah, because
he was he was mostly gay men and he had
the one young boy. So all of these things. They

(33:09):
start connecting the murders because of these characteristics that are
similar or exactly alike. Sometimes it's people from a certain place.
Sometimes it's like Gary who killed just prostitutes. I mean,
that helps them figure out who this person is or

(33:30):
what their characteristics could possibly be like. It may include
we'll see frequently. The choice of victims also speaks to
the intellectual abilities of a serial killer. The lower the
risk of victims, the higher the intellectual capacity of the killer.
Serials say this select unknown victims because it's because it's

(33:52):
easier to torture them. Evidently, I yelled for Siri's what
it sounded like. Anyway. There are murderers who choose prostitutes,
the homeless, or the poor because no one will try
to find them. That's the mindset, right. I can kill
someone who's homeless, and unless they have a family who

(34:14):
is looking for them actively, most people would never miss them.
There are, for example, in the late nineteenth century, the
undiscovered but well known Jack the Ripper, who was attributed
to eleven murders to brutally murdered. He brutally murdered prostitutes.
The name became known from letters since Scotland Yard. Since

(34:37):
there were so many emails in those days, only three
attributed to Jack the Ripper, along with there's no emails
back then, good lord. That's part of the issue when
they translate, right, they received letters, but they didn't even
have the email back then. Only three were attributed to

(35:00):
at the Ripper. Along with the letter from the Hell,
he also sent apart part of a kidney of a
murdered woman, Captain Ethanol. He promised to send a bloody
knife later in the Dear Boss letter, he insisted that
he would kill prostitutes for as long as he's not caught.
He loved his job, and he taunted the police officers
who claim to have caught him and were on the

(35:20):
right track. He promised to send the victims ears and
he also promised to be heard about again the next
day and apologized for not having the time to send
the ears to the police. And that is a very
common well, I want to say very common, but that's

(35:41):
something that happens, has happened quite often when you have
these egos who they think they're not going to get caught.
Like BTK. You know, he taunted the police, he sent
them letters, he sent them clues, and you know it

(36:06):
was his own stupid fault that he got caught because
he sent them a floppy dias that they traced to
his church. So you know, he probably would have gone
another thirty years without being caught. You know, he had
been very successful of course, he had a really long
pulling off period because he stopped killing people, killing women

(36:31):
and children when his children were born and he was
raising them, which is such a such a dichotomy of personality.
You know, he was a family man, He was well
known in the community, he was a church leader, actually
president of the church group. And yet wasn't very wasn't

(36:56):
very well liked by people who weren't with him, especially women,
And he was able to live this dual life for
thirty years crazy And you know, he continues now to
be someone that psychologists seek out and they're trying to
learn as much as they can about it so that

(37:17):
it helps us determine you know, we can look for
these clues, we can look for these things that maybe
we've missed. The more information we have, the more we
can prevent these things or stop them sooner. Right. There
are murderers who treat the victims as captives, whose torture
and killing makes them heroes. For example, the Novodes. Oh gosh,

(37:45):
I don't even know how to say that. Novo kutsen
Off monster Alexander Spencivet. Spenceivets he targeted women and children,
his mother often to help lure the victim, and he
brought the victims to his by some pretext where the
tortures began. Alexander was very attached to his mother. The

(38:06):
father was an alcoholic and betrayed his mother. He was
sleeping in his mother's bed until he was twelve years old.
The mother was an assistant to the prosecutor and often
showed photographs of the victims to the child instead of books.
Alexander read the results of the investigation, the forensic and
the forensic examination. And that's what she was talking about

(38:28):
earlier about just because she wasn't abusing this child or
sexually abusing this child, exposing him to this kind of
graphic information is abuse. It really warps a mind, and
obviously we see that here. Alexander left the psychiatric board

(38:52):
at the age of twenty one, and he continued to kill.
So he was evidently put into I'm not familiar with
his story, but he was evidently caught for that crime,
put into the psychiatric ward, and was released at the
age of twenty one. But he continued to kill, and

(39:13):
when they started, he was not caught for a long
time because law enforcement officials thought he was still in
the hospital because of a misdemeanor. Alexander treated his victims cruelly,
each time, developing new techniques, sometimes ambushed by groups, forcing
girls to kill their friend, dismember and prepare food by them.
One day, one of the neighbors complained that he smelled

(39:36):
of he smelled at his door all the time. There
was an horrible smell coming from his door, and the
police broke down the door and that's when they revealed everything.
And there was one survivor who told her story and
that's what was the nail in the coffin for Alexander.

(39:58):
That's an interesting story. Sorry, I may have to look
that up and see. I'm certain that's German just based
on the names. That's also one of the things that
I have talked about in the past. I think that
we have a really bad habit in the United States

(40:20):
of you know, letting people go. They'll serve a very
short amount of time in prison, and then we let
them out for good behavior, and then they start killing again.
You can look up so many serial killers and violent
offenders who were you know, tucked away in prison, away

(40:46):
from society, and then when they were released, they start
killing again. They should have never been released. It is
a true breakdown of both the you know, criminal justice
system and our mental health system. And I'm not blaming
any one person for sure. I think that it's just
set up that way. I think we're set up to

(41:06):
fail in many cases, and here's one of them. Right.
Just because he turned twenty one does not mean he
was he was healed, or he was fixed, and we
don't You don't ever know that until it's too late.
Oh shoot, he wasn't fixed. We should have left him
in the in the psychiatric board. Yeah, you should have.

(41:28):
But that's the thing you don't. You don't really know
until they've killed him in and they get caught. Burders
sometimes kills someone. Sometimes they cause They kill people who
cause the trauma. If they can go back. It can

(41:48):
be a mother or father, a family member, or a
loved one. It's I'm gonna say that it's somewhat rare.
We don't see a lot of that happening in the
United States. In our history of serial killers, they typically
take it out on other people. I mean, there's exceptions
to that, obviously, there's alone a minute. Well, Henry Lee

(42:23):
Lucas did and he was one of the Toolbox killers.
He was actually the he killed his mother was his
final victim. But I was thinking of Edmund Kemper. If
you remember Edmund's story, I've got a podcast just on Edmund.
He's one of the most fascinating characters. I shouldn't say characters,

(42:48):
He's one of the most fascinating serial killers I think
of our time in that you know, he was an
unusually large man six foot I wanted to say six
six foot six, six foot seven, and he was he

(43:10):
was well locked by people. He befriended the police. He
would go to this bar that they all visited, and
he became, you know, really good friends with the police.
Even when he was in the rows of all of
his murders, he typically pitched picked up hitchhoggers. Uh even

(43:33):
he would pick up two at a time, and he
fixed his car to where he could lock the passenger's
side without the girl knowing, and then he would be
able to, you know, take them to a location. He
would put one of them in the trunk, had the

(43:54):
other one locked in the back seat, and he would
ended up usually raping and murdering them, and then he
would get the other girl out and do the same.
But he ended up killing his mother, because she is
really the one who abused him so badly and that

(44:15):
was his last kill. Interesting, very interesting story, very disturbing.
Of course, she was just a horrible woman. And I'm
not making excuses for him, but you know, since he's
been in prison all these years, and he's been in
prison probably forty years at least, I'd say he has

(44:37):
really been a model prisoner and has tried to do
some really good things for this world. He does. He
does like audible books, reads audible books has quite a few,
and I keep thinking, I keep meaning to like down

(44:59):
the some because I'd really like to just I'd really
just like to see what he's doing. It's just me
interesting to me. But he has really tried to be
that I guess serial killer who is reformed. He knows
he's never going to get out, but he's doing what

(45:20):
he can to make this a better world after the fact.
It's just fascinating. You just don't hear that. You don't
hear of serial killers going into prison and trying to
make a difference in the world. He's also one very
similar in my opinion, to Jeffrey Dahmer, who could possibly

(45:42):
be somewhat empathetic. He did what he did and it
was wrong, and he was a horrible person for doing it,
but I think at some level he totally regretted it.
But I certainly don't think he deserves to be out
in the streets for sure. An example that she gives

(46:02):
is Daniel Camargo Barbosa. He had one hundred and fifty
victims approximately. He had deep childhood traumas his mother had
died and his father was a very cold, emotionless man
who married a woman that worshiped girl children but hated
boy children, and she had the habit of exposing Camargo

(46:25):
and beating with a whip. On one occasion, when Camargo
was arguing at school, his stepmother took off his pants,
forced him to wear a dress, and invited his classmates
to laugh at him. The effect on the final Psyche
was that he fell in love with Esperanza, basically worshiped her,
but it turned out that she was not a virgin.

(46:48):
He persuaded Esperanza to find virgin girls for whom he raped,
and the last victim complains and they were arrested. Plusly,
again we've got some issues with the translation. He said
he hated prostitutes. They were discussing and infections, infectious and

(47:12):
he wanted virgin girls. So that was his votus at Bronna.
And I mean, what is sick. That's another one that
I've never heard of. Certainly I think it's probably German.
Maybe see doesn't tell where, but I'll do some research

(47:43):
on that. That's gonna be a good future podcast. But
this is a very long article, and so what I'm
gonna do is break it into two parts and the
next podcast will pick up with the next major method,
which is the murders signature and modus operanda. So we

(48:04):
will pick up on this in our next podcast. As always,
I hope you've enjoyed this. If you have any questions
or thoughts, you can always contact me at doctor Kimberly
Cassidy eighty nine at gmail dot com and I will
reply to your emails as soon as I can. Be

(48:26):
safe out there and have a great evening.