The Iceman: Richard Kuklinski

This podcast discusses Richard Kuklinski, also known as The Iceman, who was a hitman for the mafia.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, composition of a killer fans. Doctor Cassidy here trying
out some new equipment. So we hope this works a
little bit better than the system that we've been using.
Excuse me. So today we're going to talk about Richard Kuklinsky,
also known as the Iceman, for a very interesting reason.
I think it could go a couple of different ways,

(00:32):
but you know, he earned that name and actually really
liked that nickname. As always, before we get started, everything
that we discussed here is not meant to be a
clinical diagnosis of any kind. We're just talking about the
early childhoods of violent offenders and serial killers and what

(00:57):
they were able to, how they developed, and what they
were able to do once they became well, not always adults,
some of them were still kids when they were doing
these things. But so Richard Kuklinsky is an American criminal
and he was born April eleventh, in nineteen thirty five
in Jersey City, New Jersey. And he died March fifth

(01:19):
in prison March the fifth, two thousand and six, in Trenton,
New Jersey. But he was convicted of four murders in
nineteen eighty eight and a fifth one in two thousand
and three, though in a series of media interviews he
later confessed to having killed at least one hundred more
and to having worked as a hit man for the mafia.
I tend to think that everything I've read about him,

(01:40):
he probably was a hit man for the mafia, based
on some of the people that he associated with. Obviously,
both of his parents were violently abusive toward him and
his siblings. He maintained that he killedighborhood cats as a

(02:01):
child and committed his first murder when he was in
his early teens. He left school after the eighth grade,
and by his account, he embarked on a varied career
of odd jobs and criminal undertakings, punctuated by a great
many murders committed by a variety of methods. One of
his criminal enterprises was the bootlegging of pornographic films, and

(02:21):
it was through this activity that he became connected with
organized crime. Eventually, he was hired as a headman carrying
out assignments from several crime families, including the Genovies, Gambino
and Cavalcantic organizations. In nineteen eighty six, he was arrested

(02:41):
and charged in connection with those five murders and the
first was George Malaband, who was killed in nineteen eighty
after he met with Kuklinski to sell videotapes. His body
was found stuffed into a barrel. The second, Lewis Mesque,
also sought a videotape deal, but he was last seen
in nineteen eighty eight, and his partially decomposed body was

(03:04):
discovered some fifteen months later. The medical examiner found ice
crystals in the body's tissue and determined that it had
been kept frozen. And this is what led to Koklinsky
being called the ice Man. He was trying to throw
off the police and the medical examiners, thinking that he
had just been recently murdered instead of being murdered, you know,

(03:28):
fifteen months earlier, which would have been a really good,
a great cover if it had it worked, but of
course it did do not, But it did lead up
to his nickname. Now, before I knew that, I would
have thought that his nickname was because he is a

(03:49):
cold blooded killer. He was a cold blooded murderer, and
I mean the iceman was very fitting. I thought so,
but it was very matter of fact. In this case.
He literally kept someone frozen in his basement in a
freezer that had lock on it, and his wife was

(04:11):
not allowed to try to open it or anything. And
that's interesting because a lot of you know, from all accounts,
he was a good husband. He was you know, he
could be very terse, but he took care of his family.
He loved his family. He was more concerned with his

(04:33):
family after he was caught than he was himself, which
is unusual. You know, that's really unusual, so it would,
you know. But she claims that she knew nothing of
what he did. She never asked questions, and he wasn't
the kind of you know, person or that kind of
husband that she could ask questions. He did not tolerate,

(04:56):
you know, wasn't any of her business. She was taken
care of and that's all the matter. Both Maliband and
Masgay had been shot to death, and Gary Smith, who
had been a member of a burglar ring, a burglary
ring that was run by Kuklinsky, was given cyanide and
then strangled. His body was found under a bed in

(05:17):
a motel in nineteen eighty two. The body of Daniel Debner,
another member of the burglary ring, was found the following year.
He had also been poisoned the body of Paul Hoffman,
who disappeared in nineteen eighty two after trying to buy
prescription drugs from Kuklinsky was never located. After Smith's body
was discovered, a six year investigation ensued, and Kouklinsky was

(05:40):
arrested in eighty six after agreeing to help a federal
undercover agent murder a fictitious man. In eighty eight, he
was found guilty of charges related to the murders of
Smith and Debner, and he later pled guilty to the
murders of Malaband and Masga. He also confessed to the
murder of Hoffmann, but charges in the case were dropped.
Kuklinski was sentenced to two consecutive terms of life prisonment,

(06:04):
and in two thousand and three he also entered a
guilty plead for that nineteen eighty murder of New York
City Police detective Peter Collabro. He was really good at
what he did, obviously, really good at what he did,
and that's how he went, you know, thirty years without

(06:27):
being caught. It's interesting to me that he was able
to live somewhat of a normal life with as many,
you know, criminal activities as he was involved in. He
really never worked an honest day in his life. I

(06:51):
don't know if he. I never could find anything on
like if he he had to file taxes in some regards,
so he had to have some kind of business front,
But I haven't found anything like that. So interestingly enough,
to my knowledge, he wasn't found to be not paying
taxes or anything like that. But I'm sure he had

(07:14):
some sort of affront for that, especially if he was
involved with the mafia. They always have a business that's
affront for whatever they're doing that's legit. While in prison,
Kuklinski gave numerous interviews to psychiatrists, criminologists, journalists, and writers,
telling the story of his life and providing detailed descriptions
of how and why he committed dozens of murders. In

(07:36):
later interviews, he claimed to have killed increasing numbers of victims,
many of them members of organized crime, but investigators largely
regarded the assertions as dubious. These interviews resulted in three
television documentaries, The Iceman Tapes Conversation with a Killer that
came out in nineteen ninety two, The as Man Confesses

(07:57):
Secrets of a Mafia hit Man in two thousand and one,
and The Iceman and the Psychiatrist in two thousand, two
thousand and three, and two biographies, The Iceman The True
Story of a Cold Blooded Killer that came out in
ninety three that was written by Anthony Bruno and The
Iceman Confessions of a Mafia Contract Killer in two thousand

(08:18):
and six that was written by Philip Carlo. Bruno's book
and the first documentary were the basis for the twenty
twelve motion picture The Iceman. So he had quite an
impact on I don't want to say social media, but

(08:39):
media of many types. I mean he had there were
TV shows, documentaries, even a movie after him. And it
is because you can just watch some of his interviews.
There's a ton of them on Longline, and he is
absolutely heartless. He's heartless. He is also well known for

(09:05):
I don't know that he was bragging. It almost seems
to me in the interview that he he was fairly hopeless.
There was a man who was getting ready to kill,
who was begging for his life, and he was begging God,
please please save me, and so Kuklinsky gave him thirty minutes.

(09:27):
He said, I'll give you thirty minutes to pray to
your God and if he can change the circumstances, then
you can live. And he said he waited thirty minutes
and that God didn't show up. And he doesn't say
that in a way that he's he's not being funny,

(09:50):
he's not being very casual about it. He is really
It takes him a little while to tell that story,
and it seems to me he's almost remorseful that he
did not let that man live. But he is the

(10:10):
epitome of someone who really resembles that mafia type of
hit there is. I mean, that's really the first time
in anything that I've read about him where he gave
someone an opportunity to pray. It's very ruthless, like if
he was hired to kill you, however it was set up,

(10:34):
he would walk in, kill the person, leave, I mean
there really wasn't or get the body and move it whatever.
But there was none of this bargaining. There was none
of this talking to the person for a few minutes
or making some sort of big production out of it,
which if you watch any TV at all, you know

(10:55):
never works because somebody always ends up getting the gun
or preventing the murder or something and he did not
give people the opportunity to do that. That's why he
was so good at what he did. He was hired
to do something, he did it, and he was smart
enough because he started in his teens doing this type

(11:17):
of thing. And even said, you know that he killed
in his teens. He was killing in his teens. First
one was in his teens. So a lifetime of skill
and a lifetime of polishing that skill. Now let me
go to this talking about his early life. He was
born in his family's apartment in New Jersey to Stanley

(11:42):
Kuklinsky and Anna McNally that were Polish and Irish immigrants.
He was frequently abused by his parents, as I said earlier,
and his father repeatedly beat him, and his mother also
beat him with household objects such as broom handles. McNally
raised her son in the Caw Church, where he became
an ultra boy, because she believed in a religious upbringing

(12:04):
along with stern discipline. He had three siblings, an elder brother,
a younger sister, and a brother Florian. Florian his elder
brother died of head injuries suffered from abuse by his father,
and they lied to the police saying that he had
fallen down a flight of stairs, so that that's the
type of that's the type of environment he was raised in,

(12:28):
so abusive that his older brother was killed and then
his younger brother, Joseph, was convicted for the rape of
and murder of a twelve year old girl. So, you know,
it doesn't say anything much about his sister. And certainly,
if I were her, I wouldn't want to be connected
to any of that. But I'd say she has stories too.

(12:49):
He says many many times that his parents raised two murders,
he and Joe, and I mean, obviously that's the truth.
But he doesn't talk about his sister. So I'm just
making an assumption here that perhaps she we would know it.

(13:09):
I think if she were violent or it had, you know,
tendencies that were related to her past abuse. But it
doesn't talk Nobody talks about it. You know, he doesn't
talk about it much at all. He just mentions that
he had a sister. So Richard began killing cats as
a young child and committed his first murder at the

(13:30):
age of fourteen, so he certainly he meets that criteria
for the McDonald triad. And then he ambushed Charlie Lane.
This is the murder. When he was fourteen, he ambushed
Charlie Lane, a teenager gang leader who had bullied him
for some time, and beat him to death in nineteen

(13:51):
forty nine. He was bullied a lot in school and people.
I'm telling you if you know, especially if you're an educator,
but if you're a parent of someone who is accused
of bullying other people, or if you have a child
who is being bullied, you absolutely need to fight that
and get those children help. You need to. You need

(14:14):
to try to make a difference in some way and
say something and stop this from happening. Bullying is consistent
among violent offenders and serial killers. So you know, we
talk about it in education, but it is alive and well.

(14:36):
I mean, bullying have been every single day, and it
truly is up to us to make a difference and
stop it from happening and hopefully provide some intervention that
can change that trajectory for a young person. Kouklinsky was
introduced to the Gambino crime family through his work with

(14:58):
mafia gangster Royd in his twenties, so he from a
very early age was somehow involved with the mafia Kuklinsky
was said to be Demeyo's favorite enforcer. He claimed that
he was responsible for the murder of Roy Demeyo. However,
evidence and testimony pointed to the murderers being de Mayo's

(15:21):
crew associates Joseph Testa and Anthony Slater, as well as
the Mayo's supervisor in the Gambino family, Anthony Gaggy. Over
the next thirty years, Richard Kuklinsky killed several people, either
by guy strangulation, knife, or poison. He actually favored using

(15:42):
sinide because it killed quickly and it was hard to
detect in toxicology tests. So not only was he a
prolific murderer, he was specialized. I mean he knew what
was the quickest way to kill somebody. He actually liked
to use sinaide in a spray form, and they could

(16:04):
be in a even in a public setting, and he
would walk by his target and spray him in the
face and that's enough to kill you, and he'd just
keep on walking and never be detected. He did that
multiple times, according to his testimony and interviews after the fact.

(16:26):
But he would literally just spray it in their face.
A mist of cyanide and it would kill them. One
of the reasons, of course, we know for his nickname
was because he used an industrial freezer to freeze. This
says the corpses of his victims. But we only know
that he did that to one for sure. And we

(16:47):
also know that many times when serial killers, he's not
necessarily considered a serial killer, although he is he's a
serial killer, he is considered a hit man. I don't
know that the FBI has really a I'm fairly positive

(17:11):
they don't really have a designation for that. If you're
a hit man, you're a serial killer because you have
a cooling off period in between victims. And even though
you maybe you're not self maybe it's not intrinsic that
you want to kill somebody. You're doing it because it's
your job. You still have to have that ability to
do it, in that mindset to do it. So in
my opinion, he is one of the most successful serial

(17:34):
killers in the United States. So it says that nearly
after nearly thirty years in the mafiau clints, he started
his own crime ring and devised a new way to
gain profit by killing people. The case of Paul Hoffman
was typical of his methodology. He double crossed. Kuklinsky double

(17:57):
crossed illegal drug dealer Hoffman. On the apnoon of April
twenty ninth, eighty two, Hoffman met Kuklinsky at a warehouse
where he gave Kouklinsky the money, but when ku Clintcey
claimed the deal to be a ruse, he shot Hoffman
under the chin, and the shot did not kill him,
so Kuklinsky killed him by beating him to death. The
first major mistake by Kuklinsky was made in December twenty.

(18:20):
On December twenty seventh of eighty two, when the decomposing
body of Gary Smith was found in room thirty one
under the bed at York Motel in North Bergen, New Jersey,
could Clintcey had, I can't can't say that name over
and over. We need to call him Gary or something
easy Richard. I guess it is easy enough. He killed

(18:41):
Gary Smith by feeding him a sign I'd laced hamburger
in the room at the York Motel. He he also
liked to do that. He would lace food and a sandwich.
Typically what he would do hamburger was a little bit different,
but he would do a sandwich and he would like
to share it with that person, have it already cut into,

(19:04):
and he knew which side was which. Egg. Salad was
something that he used often, and he would poison one
side of it, and when the person was you know,
you know, they were getting ready to eat, he would say, here,
just you can have this half of the sandwich. And
of course the person would trust that because he was
going to eat his part and right there in front

(19:26):
of him, and they just I guess didn't make that
connection that maybe just their part would be poisoned. But
that was one of the ways that he would build
trust with people if he was going to kill them
in that manner. His fourth known murder was Daniel Dibner,
and Debner's body was found at a lonely wooded area

(19:49):
near West Milford, New Jersey, on May fourteenth of eighty
three while a turkey vulture was preying on it. It
was spotted by bicyclist riding down the road. The body
was hood in garbage bags before being dumped, and was
found just over three miles from where Kuklinsky family. The
Kuklinsky family often went riding. The body of Lewis Masgay

(20:12):
was found near a park a Town Park on September
twenty fifth of eighty three in Orangetown, New York with
a bullet with a bullet wound in the head, and
Kuklinsky managed to hide the time of Louise's death by
storing his corpse in the freezer for two years really
more like fifteen months, but the body did not thaw
completely before he dumped it, and that's when they found

(20:33):
the ice crystals. All of the five unsolved homicides were
later linked to the to Kuklinsky because he had been
the last person to see them alive. In eighty five,
local state and federal law enforcement agencies joined the task
force nicknamed Operation Iceman to arrest and convict Richard Kuklinsky.

(20:54):
Detective Pat Kine an ATF special agent Dominick Polophrone, were
with Phil Solomin, who posed as a fellow hit man
to Koklinsky and stated to hire him for a hit.
He recorded Koklinsky speaking in depth about how he would
go about the murder on December seventeenth. In eighty six,
Koklinsky met paula Front to obtain the SNOD for the

(21:18):
murder of the random detective working undercover. After obtaining the
snod Kuld Clint Si could Clintske took a walk where
he tested the sign out on a stray dog. I
really hope that microphone did not pick up that vehicle

(21:39):
that just went down the road, but it probably did.
That's what That's what I get forgetting one of these
really sensitive microphones, I guess. Anyway, So he tested the
sign out on a stray dog, but he became suspicious
when he realized that it was a poison and decided
to go home instead of committing the murder. He was
arrested two hours later at a roadblock. Richard Kuklinsky was

(22:03):
charged with five murders, five murders, attempted murder, robbery, attempted robbery,
and weapons violations. Officials also found a large sum of
money in his Swiss bank accounts and reservation to fly
to that country. In March of eighty eight, he was
found guilty of two of the murders, but he did
not face the death penalty as the desks were not

(22:24):
proven to be Kuklinsky's conduct. I don't know what that
even means. That's not even that sentence is not correct
in all. He was convicted for five murders and sentenced
to consecutive life sentences, making him not eligible for parole
until age one to ten. And honestly, that's ridiculous. There

(22:46):
should never be parole remotely possible for anyone who is this.
Not that he would be living that long, but the
possibility of getting parole at any point in time is
ridiculous for a serial killer. So cuclinsically, all right, Richard,

(23:11):
I'm just gonna say, Richard. Richard initially worked in a
warehouse in New Jersey before he started working as a
contract killer, but he met eighteen year old Barbara Pedrici
there and they got married after she became pregnant. Kuklinsky
and his wife had two daughters and a son, so
that was probably the only legit job he had. Barbara

(23:33):
decided to describe his behavior as alternating between good and bad.
The good part of him is a hard working man
providing for his family, an affectionate father and husband who
enjoyed spending time with his family, while the bad him
was given to violent fits of rage and physical abuse
where he beat his wife and emotionally beat his children,
emotionally abused his children. After seventeen years in prison, he

(23:56):
was diagnosed with a rare condition of inflammation of blood vessels,
due to which he was transferred to securing at Saint
Francis Medical Center in Trenton, New Jersey, and he died
at the age of seventy. It's just odd to me,
you know, he claimed to work as a hitman but

(24:17):
still had a seemingly normal family life. But if he
was abusive to his wife and children, I'm sure they
knew not to ask him questions about what he was doing,
where the money was coming from. But you can watch
you can watch videos of his wife and children, and

(24:39):
you know she divorced him right after he was arrested.
But they all described him as a loving and caring father,
but that he had very complex personality, So like bipolar
is what I would describe that as. He was known
for his attention to detail and planning and executing his crimes,
displaying a matiu and calculated approach to his legal activities.

(25:03):
In interviews and documentaries, he displayed a surprisingly calm and
composed demeanor even when discussing his gruesome acts, showcasing his
ability to maintain a chillingly detached attitude, which is really
why I would have thought they called him the iceman
because he literally talks in his interviews as if we're

(25:24):
just chatting about the weather. It's he's so matter of
fact about it, and it's not like he was being held.
I don't think he was necessarily proud of it. I
think he was proud of the fact that he was
so very successful. And if it's true that, if it

(25:49):
is true that he worked for the mafia, then he
had to have been very good at his job, and
he had to be very well trusted by those members
that he worked with, because you know, the mafia, they
don't trust anybody, so he had to really, you know,
his reputation may have preceded him. And of course he

(26:12):
was friends with that De Mayo, so obviously that could
have that was his end. But it's really amazing to
me that he was able to. You know, he left
the eighth grade and started this life of crime very
early on. Most of the time you're going to see,

(26:35):
you know, a history of even small time offenses where
they had their in and out of jail for just
even if it's just the simplest of things. But he
was not. He was not. It really wasn't until the
eighties that he experienced, you know, really came on the radar.
So that's kind of how good he was, not to mention.

(27:00):
In addition to being a hit man, you know, he
had the burglary ring and pirated pornography. And I will
say this, you know, that was way back in the
day before we had a lot of the advanced methods
of catching criminals. Who do you know, pirated pornography or

(27:20):
even burglar rings. Everybody seems to have a camera, you know,
the average American is on camera thirty two times a
day if you go out in public, even most of us,
if you go around your house, you're on your own
cameras several times a day. So you know, back then

(27:41):
seventies eighties, not as much exposure to all these cameras.
All this again, the using social media, using computers and
those kind of things to pirate pornography, he probably did
it a complete different way. And I haven't looked into

(28:02):
that just because it's not really relevant to my interest
in him. But just the fact that he did have multiple,
you know, crime schemes going on at the same time
and still took years and years to catch him. He

(28:23):
had five children, two from his first marriage, which Linda
was his first wife. They divorced before nineteen sixty one,
and then three from his second marriage, and that was
Barbara Pedrici Kuklintski, that was his second wife. She's the

(28:44):
one that divorced him once he was arrested. And you
see that quite often. He was also known as, in
addition to the ice man, Big rich or Big Ritchie,
which doesn't that sound like a mob name, Big rich
or Big Rigie, and also the asthma. But most people would,
you know, in their general everyday conversations, might call him

(29:07):
Big Rich or Big Riggie. And that's that's kind of
indicative of that influence of the mob or the mafia.
So very interesting his He talks quite a bit about
how his childhood affected his demeanor and his ability to

(29:32):
do these things. And I can't help, but I can't
help but think you know that this is another perfect
example of how children are a product of their environment.

(29:54):
You know his mother, Anna, she grew up in an
orphanage where a priest raped her and the nuns beat her.
So she married Stanley Kuklinsky hoping for a better life,
only to find that he was an abusive, alcoholic who
regularly beat her. So she was a product of you know,

(30:14):
an orphan is where you know, she was raped and
beaten and then thought she was you know, that's very common,
marrying to get out of a situation, and you really
just step right into the fire, you know. And I'm
sure you know she wasn't really strong enough to prevent

(30:36):
him from from abusing her children, which is horrible. But
you know, he eventually the father eventually abandoned the family.
But he said that even after his father left, the
mother was no better, that she also beat her children.

(30:58):
And he actually says in the Iceman Confessions of a
Mafia contract Killer that my mother was cancer. She slowly
destroyed everything around her. She produced two killers, me and
my brother Joe. And how sad is that? Right? I mean,
it's interesting if you watch him, if you watch him

(31:23):
in his interviews, and he's like very retrospective, you can
almost see the sadness. I mean, he's very He was
a very macho He had a very macho image. He
was very much I mean, I think he was proud
of what he had been able to do in a

(31:45):
weird way, and so he was arrogant, very arrogant, but
you can see in the videos, you can still see
a lot of that, but you can also see that
he has a lot of regret. He had a lot
of I think, sadness from his childhood, and that's probably
what he was trying to work through all through his life.

(32:07):
You know, you know his brother Joe that he was
twenty five years old when he lured that twelve year
old girl to a rooftop. He kidnapped her dog, and
then he lured her up to a rooftop, He raped her,
and then he threw her off the roof along with
the dog, killing them both. He died in prison in

(32:28):
two thousand and three. But I mean that in and
of itself was one of the most heinous crimes I've
ever read, you know, manipulating a child to the point
where you know, you steal their animal, their pet, to
get them to come with you, and it's just horrible

(32:50):
think about that. It doesn't say that either of them
were raped. That don't have to be to you know,
for the abuse to be bad. Get me wrong, but
you know his brother is the one who raped There's
no report of Richard doing that, but you know, again

(33:17):
he his first murder was beating a bully the neighborhood
bullied dead with a wooden pole, and literally that boy,
that bully that he killed, had been tormenting him. He was,
at that time, they say, a skinny, awkward teen and
had no friends. He then got rid of the body himself,

(33:43):
you know, but he eventually grew to be six foot
five inches tall and weighed three hundred pounds. He was
a sizeable man. I mean six foot five, three hundred pounds.
You know, most people aren't going to be able to
fight that, nor are they going to challenge him. Huge man,

(34:05):
huge man. And you know, in addition to things like
the poison and the guns and bats and strangulation, he
would literally beat a man to death with just his fists.
He would use ice picks, screwdrivers, hand grenades, even fire.

(34:28):
You know, he was so ruthless, and I think I
think in some ways you can see in some of
his documentaries where he was trying to perfect his killing.
And that's why you saw him using all these different things.
He was trying to figure out which one was more effective,
which one. He didn't like the mess of using a gun.

(34:51):
He liked poisoning because there wasn't as much of a
mess to clean up. I mean, he was so calculated
and thought out. But again it was a lifetime of
doing it, so he just got better and better and better,
you know. So I think this is a perfect example

(35:13):
of a person that's a product of their early childhood environment.
He did not really know what love was. He tried
to love his family, and they loved him. I mean,
you can watch their interviews. They do say that he
could be a pretty horrible man, but on the flip
side of that, he took care of them. They lived

(35:34):
a very good life, went on vacations. I mean, they
had a very good life, not knowing how it was funded.
It's crazy to me because I think in the information
society that we live in today's, you know, we want
to know everything we can about someone if we're going

(35:55):
to especially if we're going to be dating them or
marry them, you know. But it was a different time.
So I'm not gonna certainly, I'm not going to fault
her for that. She may have literally had no idea
what was going on. You do not ask, and certainly
he would not tell so. All right, So, if you
have any thoughts or questions about Richard Kuklinsky, I would

(36:20):
love to hear them if you want to shoot me
an email at doctor Kimberly Cassidy eighty nine at gmail
dot com and we can discuss it. He is an
interesting character, and again there's a couple more interviews I
want to see of his. I like to just kind
of get an idea really of their personality. We don't

(36:43):
know exactly how these people are because we don't really
see them, and Ted Bumy might be an exception to
that because he was He loved that and so we
do see a lot of his quote unquote normal every
day personality in his interviews, I think because it was

(37:04):
so charming. Richard Kuklinsky was certainly not that way. And
if you even look at him, he's one of those
people that I would literally shy away fromhim. I'd just
be like, I do not want to be anywhere near him.
He just looks like a mean person, very cold. His
eyes are just very cold. And I find it kind

(37:28):
of hard to believe that he was a loving father
and a loving husband at times, because he just does
not strike me as that so interesting. He's a very interesting.
One of my terrible to say this, but it's one
of my favorites that I've read about because I just

(37:48):
find him so fascinating. You know that he was able
to do what he did for so very long and
was willing to share that infration, whether he realizes what
he was doing or not, but it really helps us
to understand what the outcomes can be of families who

(38:13):
have you know, alcoholism, severe abuse, neglect, all those things.
So definitely someone we can learn from, that's for sure.
But again, if you have questions, comments, feel free to
shoot me an email and I'll have another episode out
next week, so I'll look forward to talking to you then.

(38:36):
Until then, have a great week and be safe out there.